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Non-Shomeret Jewish Woman Pulls off an Amazing Feat!

Muffti has uncovered an amazing story. Apparently, a young Jewish woman who admits to “…never having been shomeret, and I was certainly no virgin when I married” still manages to maintain a meaningful sexual relationship with her husband. How did she pull off this amazing feat?

No one is quite sure. But Muffti begs his dear readers to hold their skepticism in abeyance because her story appears to check out. “Apparently he [the husband] isn’t so insecure that he thinks that prior sexual relationships ruined me for life,” says she. “Not all of my sexual experiences were as meaningful as possible. Most of them, however, didn’t involve me waking up and wanting to get the hell out of what’s-his-name-again’s apartment. All were pretty fun, some fairly intimate and now I’m happy to maintain a spiritually fulfilling relationship with just one man.”

Simply amazing. There’s more however. Apparently, despite not being shomeret, our featurette managed to have genuine, meaningful friendships with members of the opposite sex.

“Sometimes sex would get in the way of friendships when the guy was, like, immature or severely undersexed or couldn’t handle my lack of interest. But most men I came in contact with, despite occasional sexual tension, understood the relevant boundaries and we managed to have healthy, fun friendships.”

The most surprising element of this story is that the couple aren’t even frum. “We are fairly secular. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t take the time to make sex intimate and spiritually rewarding. Of course, my frum friends tell me I’m missing since God isn’t in the bedroom when we, you know, do it. To be honest, I’m just as glad to keep it between me and my man.”

Well, Muffti’s mind is blown. He thought that being secular meant that everyone was suffering sexual relations devoid of all fulfilment and intimacy, 10 year olds in thongs and guaranteed divorces! (CK told him so a while back). How did this couple manage to avoid this trap?

“Well, it helped to marry someone I loved very much and who loved me back. And proper parenting and education has kept our 11 year old from becoming a thong wearer.”

Good for her for avoiding what, so far as Jewlicious seems concerned, is the inevitable fate of all secular sex. But apparently, unbeknownst to him, this happens all the time, every single day. Women who have sexual intercourse with more than one man still manage to make sexual contact with other men holy later in life. Men manage to enjoy sex both premaritally and during marriage. Some kids escape the allure of the skanky outfit.

Not everyone is so lucky, of course. Shtremiel informed Muffti a while back that some people he knows have meaningless sex often and aren’t all that happy. Fortunately all of us non-shomerites can grasp and reach for a leg of hope: somehow, things might just work out for us in th end if we are just secular, not insane.

76 Comments

  1. ck

    3/29/2005 at 3:04 am

    Man Bites Dog!
    Details at 11 …

    Well thanks for the warm and fuzzy anecdotal evidence Muffti. What do they call that in your neck of the woods? Feminist academic theory? Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    But clearly you misunderstand me. For instance, I am in favor of Jews marrying Jews in part because that tends to assure continuity, and yet I know many cases where a person came from a Jewish household, was educated in Jewish day schools etc. etc. and still became a G*dless heathen. Conversely, I know of cases where a fully formed committed Jew emerged from an otherwise completely secular family of mixed parentage.

    When I talk about sexuality I do not discount the possibility that individuals may, of their own accord, rise above otherwise overwhelming social trends. But those social trends exist – someone’s buying all those pre-teen thongs, hello kitty condoms and Flintstones chewable birth control pills. The commodification of sex IS having an effect on individuals and the Torah simply offers a systematic way of dealing with that.

    Again, I do not discount the possibility of individuals to transcend societal impulses. It happens every day and I am glad your friend has awesome sex with her husband and that her daughter is still chaste at 11.

    😉

  2. ck

    3/29/2005 at 3:34 am

    I was kidding about the Hello Kitty condoms, but oddly enough, Sanrio does in fact make condoms decorated with various characters like Monkichi, Kamo Kamo and Badtz Maru …. Good grief. What am I supposed to illustrate this post with now??

  3. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 4:09 am

    #1 bestselling section of any bookstore…self-help
    #1 bestselling section of self-help…sex/relationships
    Hmmmmm.

    GM,
    Your young. And if you use “exceptions to every rule” to justify an action/decision, I guess you’ve had some luck at Casinos. Me? I’ve seen what casual sex has done to my outlook on relationships, women, etc. Was it a movie…an ad…a magazine…internet porn…my parents? Who knows. What I do know is that Jewish law provides me with a plethora of tools on how to make intimacy and a marriage work. I’ve lived in both worlds. And without question, secularism has done more harm to family, community and marriage than a shtetyl full of wife beating Chassidim (Of course I don’t believe this. But I’m waiting for the: “I know this one Chassidic man who beat up his wife and therefore Orthodox Jew are not any happier than secular Jews…blah, blah, blah).

  4. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 4:17 am

    Damn, posted a damn fine response and it didn’t go through. Your filter is anything but Jewlicious.

  5. ck

    3/29/2005 at 4:19 am

    Relax. There it is …

  6. D

    3/29/2005 at 4:54 am

    Do I detect a hint of sardonicism? NO!

  7. ariela

    3/29/2005 at 7:25 am

    Shtreimel —

    So basically, what you’re saying is that the Torah is your self-help sex book. Interesting. But that doesn’t change the fact that you’re doing exactly what those crazy secularists are doing (i.e. looking for answers in a book). It’s just that your book is the number one bestsellers amongst religious folk.

    Judaism has always shifted with the times, hence Talmud. But it’s simply unrealistic to think that the “outside world” is an escapable place. I see no harm in looking at the Torah for answers, since that seems to be what works for you, but don’t hate on those who find Dr. Phil to be more identifiable than Dr. G-d.

  8. ck

    3/29/2005 at 7:39 am

    Dr. Phil? Seiously Ariela! I hate that dude. He totally creeps me out. And when he doesn’t creep me out he pisses me off with his smug, self righteous banter. I wish one of his guests would take a cue from the Jerry Springer Show and maybe, you know, punch out his lights. Now that I would tune into …

  9. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 9:36 am

    New York Times Best Seller List

    Amazon Best Seller List

    Barnes and Noble.com Best Seller List

    Notice the lack of relationship self help books as making the top of any best seller list. Diet books, on the other hand, are kicking ass. This doesn’t show anything since perhaps people are massively buying a plethora of relationship books while buying only a few certain dieting books. Nonetheless, it’s kind of suggestive that Shtremiel is full of shit. In any case, what’s wrong with self help books? What’s wrong with self help books on relationships?

    Muffti doesn’t think that stray cases should prove any rule. That goes just as much for you. As you say:

    Me? I’ve seen what casual sex has done to my outlook on relationships, women, etc. Was it a movie…an ad…a magazine…internet porn…my parents? Who knows. What I do know is that Jewish law provides me with a plethora of tools on how to make intimacy and a marriage work.

    Muffti doesn’t mean to get personal. He likes Shtremiel. But this is exactly what we call anecdotal evidence. Good for you for finding a plethora of tools. But you are just one dude and having lived on ‘both sides of the fence’ makes you an authority on, well, absolutely nothing. Having some unhappy secular friends and some exstatic frum friends makes you an authority on absolutely nothing.

    Anyhow, Muffti wasn’t really advocating or challenging anything. Muffti is obviously not a great writer, but if you couldn’t tell, he was being sarcastic (hat tip to D.) He just wanted to remind y’all that the apocalyptic tones you guys use to describe anyone living outside the fold of orthodoxy (or even shomer nageahness) would make a story like the one above sound simply unbelievable. It’s not.

  10. tiff

    3/29/2005 at 10:48 am

    I hate these posts so much. Ok, not so much the posts but many of the responses. I tried to be nice all through the 150 million inane comments on pre-marital sex but enough is enough. Strudel, or whatever your name is, your views on sex are retarded. Clearly lack of sex has addled your brain, so please, do yourself a favor, go marry some chaste, pure girl who has been waiting her entire life to be deflowered by a nice jewish man such as yourself and be done with it. And if your holy act is less than stellar, as it’s bound to be, that’s cool, because hey she’s got nothing to compare it to.
    Btw ck, your comments might be more believable if I didn’t actually know you. But whatever, I’m off to indulge in some godless heathen-like behaviour… It’s idol worship tuesdays!!!

  11. Esther

    3/29/2005 at 11:06 am

    Boy, you people will not rest until Jewlicious is the number 1 search result for “Jewish Hello Kitty Condoms.”

    Good points, everyone. Can’t comment at length, for must work. But I will say that in the last two days, I’ve bought three books from that best-selling section Shtreimel mentioned. I figure, at the rate this is discussed between my column, JDaters Anonymous and Jewlicious, it’s tax-deductible self-help, which is the best kind.

    Dr. Phil’s aphorisms make very little sense when you hear them, and even less when you deconstruct them: “Sleeping with your ex-husband’s brother under the nose of your ex-husband is like a cow sprouting wings, coming in from the barn and telling your nephew to bring in the newspaper.” Huh?

  12. ck

    3/29/2005 at 11:06 am

    Tiffy! My own sister. Sheesh.
    I never claimed to be some moral exemplar. I have indeed wallowed in the flesh pots of Babylon and done some of the most reprehensible, morally degenerate and despicable things one can do. Is that what you wanna hear Tiff? Yeah, I’m no choirboy or Yeshivah buchur. It’s not a big secret. But people evolve Tiff.

    But I will not judge anyone – for I am the last one to judge. I am merely expressing my opinion as one who has been all over the map in terms of observance. And I don’t see what is wrong with my opinion. All I’m saying is that a little reverence towards sexuality may not be such a bad thing.

  13. tiff

    3/29/2005 at 11:59 am

    Ck. I wasn’t trying to get you to admit to being the devil or anything. And you know that, in general, I think very highly of you and your evolution. It just always cracks me up when people decide that their own limited personal experience somehow allows them to make sweeping judgements on the best way to live. For instance, Shtreimel’s “I’ve lived in both worlds. And without question, secularism has done more harm to family, community and marriage…” blah blah blah. . But whatever, who am I to mess with your crusade to save orthodoxy, comment by comment?

  14. fineline

    3/29/2005 at 12:33 pm

    Why is it exactly that we are all so down on people making sweeping judgements on the best way to live? We hold that idea up as some sort of innate evil. Guess what, folks…not everybody thinks that in an ideal world, everyone would taste every forbidden fruit and experience every experience before deciding what’s best for them.

    Come on, do any of us think (please say no please say no please say no) that married people should feel free to test out a surreptitious affair because they don’t like the “sweeping judgement” that marital fidelity is the best way to live? Society makes a “sweeping judgement” that it is creepy for 50 year-old-men to try sleeping with a gaggle of 14 year-old-girls, no? Don’t you think that’s creepy, Tiff? Based on what? Your limited personal experience?

    A very fundamental purpose of an ethical or moral or religious system is to set up ideals of behaviors…not for an individual, but for a society or the whole world. The belief underlying the system is that by promoting such an ideal of behavior, the world can be a better place. Spread democracy. Spread feminism. Spread the sexual modesty and fidelity of traditional Judaism. In any case, you are taking a belief that you have that a particular model is right and good and promoting it. You know, making a sweeping judgement that something that you think is good for you is good for others too. Someone who has no such beliefs that they think are worth promoting as of universal value would be somewhat of nihilist.

    In Shtreimel’s case, at least he has the backing of some societal trends to say that the traditional model of sexual interaction might be of some benefit.

    Kol Ha’kavod to the idealists!

  15. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 12:46 pm

    Ariela:
    If you’ve read my posts (and I know you have, because you’ve commented on them before), it’s pretty clear that I DON’T BELIEVE that the Torah, the Laws, and everything else should be taken for what it is…and it ain’t self-help. BUT…does it help marriage, children, sex, etc., I absolutely believe it does. And I believe this from a personal and clinical position. Does this mean one should do Jewish because it’ll provide them with a longer marrige and intense orgasms….NO.

    Speaking of books and secularism…I believe I was the poster who mentioned Passionate Marriage as one of the best books on intimacy, relationships, etc. It’s a little dense with all the Bowenian theory on differntiation, but it’ll explain a lot to you folks struggling to maintain/find a relationship. And no, you don’t have to be married to appreciate the book. And no, the author isn’t Orthodox.

    GM:
    You cower behind semantics and stats. #1…my comment about self-help being the top selling books section in any bookstore stands. I didn’t say one book, I said section. How do I know this….a few ways. From a few friends who work at Book Warehouse and Chapters (in Vancouver), from noticing how well stocked and large the self-help/relationship section is at my local Chapters, from noticing how many people are hanging out in these sections and also from noticing that the only specialized books stores, at least in Vancouver, deal with healing thy self and love. So stop being silly, you know what I’m talking about. And I’m not talking about the poetry section. Next…

    GM…I speak the truth, and it stings. No prob. We all know about the divorce rate. We all speak to our friends who are married and how they complain that their lackluster sexual lives weren’t this way when they were banging like pups 2 years before they were married. We know. We don’t even have to discuss this. And as an Modern Ortho friend of mine once said (we both know him btw): “My mother is constantly shocked by how much her secular friends complain about their sex lives.” He went on to say that his mother (the fact that his mother tells him this stuff is a little yuch, but whatever) is convinced that her friends poor sex lives were due to a lack of niddah, tzniut, etc, in their lives. I agree.

    Tiff:
    “I hate these posts/comments so much”
    So whose worse for the wear, you who visits and then comments upon sites that you hate so much, or my “retarded views on sex”. BTW, if you know who you were talking about, you’d apologize and walk away red faced.

  16. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 12:49 pm

    “Why is it exactly that we are all so down on people making sweeping judgements on the best way to live?”

    Fineline,
    For the most part, they’re young. I did the same thing when I was in my mid-late 20’s. I hated to think that generalizations might be correct…that my behavior could be reduced to a stereotype. But there are times it did, and that sucked. But you grow up and appreciate that your grandparents were right about a few things. And that your peers were wrong. And that’s life.

  17. ck

    3/29/2005 at 1:10 pm

    Shtreimel wrote: BTW, if you know who you were talking about, you’d apologize and walk away red faced.

    Heh. If you knew my sister, I dare say you’d do the same – unless she first administered a well placed body check which would then prevent you from walking away.

    Tiff has a point though and despite the brusque manner in which she made it, we could all stand to be a little less preachy. I have the benefit of knowing (more or less) both you (when you worked at Hillel) and Tiff (cuz she’s my sister) and well… let’s just say I think that, uh … you’re both fine, well meaning people.

  18. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 1:14 pm

    CK,

    I have no doubt your sis is quality goods. And the funny thing is, we’re repulsed by the same thing (Partners for Torah just called again and they creep me out with their pushy style of Jewish education). IMHO, fineline’s post is stellar, and not just because he understands where I’m coming from (though it doesn’t hurt).

  19. tiff

    3/29/2005 at 1:16 pm

    “BTW, if you know who you were talking about, you’d apologize and walk away red faced.”

    Yeah Shtreimel, no offense, but short of you being God, I don’t think that I would. I have to say though that I’m a bit disturbed by your threatening tone. Actually, I change my mind, I love your posts! zzzzzzzzzzz….. Ooooh I just fell asleep. Lovely.

    I love Jewlicious, but I don’t always agree with what is being said. But I guess that’s not cool (unless you’re the token atheist). Well, boys, from hence forth I promise only vapid comments about I dunno hockey and beer. Sound good?

  20. fineline

    3/29/2005 at 1:16 pm

    Hey! I’m in my mid-late 20’s. Time magazine called me for a poll last week. I felt so “target audience.”

    I think that the anti-generalization attitude is more than just an issue of youth. (Though, it definitely has that element.) I think that our society developed a very open, relativist, “to each his own” attitude back in the 60’s and 70’s. That lead to many positive things…and many negative. Now that we’re starting to recognize some of the problems this attitude has created, it has become so ingrained, that those seeking or proposing non-individualistic solutions are mocked.

  21. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 1:40 pm

    “it has become so ingrained, that those seeking or proposing non-individualistic solutions are mocked.”

    There’s a saying in the therapy world that that which is normal is not necessarily healthy…and often isn’t.

  22. tiff

    3/29/2005 at 1:41 pm

    Fineline: Maybe I wasn’t clear. It’s natural to use personal experience to define the way you want to live, I mean what else do we have, the Torah? But, in my own personal experience (heheh…) doing so seems simplistic and even perilous. You only agree with Shtreimel here because his exsperience have imparted him with morals that you accept. But if I was like, seriously guys, 75% of the 3 blondes that I know are dumb, therefore I conclude that all blonde people are dumb, I would prob get in trouble…

  23. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 1:46 pm

    “…60’s and 70’s. That lead to many positive things…and many negative.”

    Another truism. Blogs, and subsequent comments, bring out the most polarized parts of us (probably a mix of exhibitionism, coupled with a frustration that we have to be so f’ing pc out there in the real world). For ex…I used to look forward to my convos with GM at McGill. But in blogland, we’re like the kkk vs. nwa (with Easy E).

  24. D

    3/29/2005 at 1:48 pm

    I hate to say this is really do, but what happened to the cool posts on Jewlicious? No offense is intended when I say this but, It used to be so colorful and categorically diverse. Lately all I see is posts about premarital sex and even more on politics? Politics!

    I love your blog guys, please don’t turn it into Jewschool #2.

  25. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 1:53 pm

    “all blonde people are dumb, I would prob get in trouble…”

    So? What’s wrong with trouble? Hell most of my clients are glad wade in projection land until some trouble enter’s their lives. Trouble’s good, especially if it is a by-product of truth. Now if you’re refering to “trouble” due to ignorance or stupidity, well that’s another matter.

  26. fineline

    3/29/2005 at 1:54 pm

    Tiff,

    I don’t think that you get my point at all, though I take exactly 50% of the responsibility for that.

    My point is that not that one should use personal experiences to generalize on how others should behave or what others are like. Instead, I think that one should take personal experiences, external data, and internal beliefs to come to a conclusion about the best way for all people to act. My main point was that we ALL do this anyway. The only reason you criticize Shtreimel is that you don’t accept his model.

    BTW…75% of the three blondes are dumb? Shall I presume that 2 are dump and 1 is 25% dumb, thereby yielding 75%? Aaaahhh! Help me out here. My wife and son are both quite intelligent and quite blond, so I need to understand the relevant statistics.

  27. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 1:59 pm

    “I love your blog guys, please don’t turn it into Jewschool #2.”

    For this to happen, one would have to post:

    a) Articles which deny sex is good, was ever good and that anything you thought or were taught about sex is wrong.

    b) Post articles by N. Chomsky proving that sex is bad and was a horrible idea right from the beginning.

    c) Subsequent comments would have to accuse the author of said post that he/she hated their own genitals.

    To date, I haven’t seen this happen on Jewlicious (it does happen on Jewschool though).

  28. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 2:09 pm

    Fineline said:
    “The only reason you criticize Shtreimel is that you don’t accept his model.

    Nah, I think the truth is revealed in her post, vis-à-vis this comment:

    “go marry some chaste, pure girl who has been waiting her entire life to be deflowered by a nice jewish man such as yourself and be done with it. And if your holy act is less than stellar, as it’s bound to be, that’s cool, because hey she’s got nothing to compare it to.”

    So either Tiff had a horrible de-flowering experience by some chassid or she’s so far gone in her promiscuity that she must rationalize/ignore alternative approaches to emotional intimacy and great sex. Either way, your response is WAY too emotional for someone who is confident with their sexual/relationship choices.

  29. fineline

    3/29/2005 at 2:14 pm

    Ok….

    What we learn here is that the tone of the comments section reflects the tone of the original post…in this case sarcastic and somewhat mean-spirited.

  30. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 2:15 pm

    Bingo 😉

  31. ck

    3/29/2005 at 2:18 pm

    Classy response shtreimel, very classy.

  32. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 2:20 pm

    It’s a blog CK, chill.

  33. ck

    3/29/2005 at 2:24 pm

    That’s still MY SISTER you’re talking about. I mean she can take care of herself, and does not need big brother to jump in and defend her, but still… I have to admit I’m a little disappointed.

  34. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 2:38 pm

    CK,Re-read your sisters post…

    She begins with this:
    “I hate these posts so much.”

    Continues onto this:
    “the 150 million inane comments on pre-marital sex”

    Calls me a “Strudel” – which was quite funny actually.

    And then states this:
    “your views on sex are retarded. Clearly lack of sex has addled your brain”

    All this and I’ve never corresponded with this “tiff” once…ever. When you walk into an online convo guns blazing you get what you dish out. And yes, I stooped to her level. I apologize about that.

    What is it with bloggers and their sisters?
    Does Mob’s sis hang with your sis?

  35. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 2:41 pm

    Actually, it’s kinda nice the way CK sticks up for his sister. And I may be generalizing, but I think sibs should do this. And if my brother happens to be reading this on his ship somewhere in the Pacific…Rob, take note!!!!!!!

  36. Janice

    3/29/2005 at 3:06 pm

    I’m actually wondering who this woman is that Muffti “interviewed.” Most of the time you guys cite and then link to a website or a newspaper article, where somebody else, like a professional journalist or writer, researched and investigated the topic. While I’m not distrusting that this woman exists, it appears that all of her quotes and his commentary serve Muffti’s perspective about sex, pre-marital or marital, and his view and practice (or lack thereof) of Judaism, quite conveniently.

    Although his post has elicited lots of coments, and of course, traffic, can Muffti post his source(s) like Esther or T_M have done on their posts within the past week?

  37. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 3:10 pm

    Muffti is always amused by Shtremiel’s enthusiasm, but terribly saddened by his arguments.

    You cower behind semantics and stats…my comment about self-help being the top selling books section in any bookstore stands. I didn’t say one book, I said section.

    Muffti agrees that what he said wasn’t a refutation of you. It was merely suggestive. He did want to know your evidence.

    How do I know this….a few ways. From a few friends who work at Book Warehouse and Chapters (in Vancouver), from noticing how well stocked and large the self-help/relationship section is at my local Chapters…So stop being silly, you know what I’m talking about. And I’m not talking about the poetry section. Next…

    No, Shtremiel, Muffti is pretty sure that his point is that you manifestly don’t know what your talking about. Muffti has been to a few bookshops himself in his day and noticed self help sections and people in them. He’s also seen many people in poetry sections, in history sections and most of all in trashy novel sections. (Maybe you are lumping trashy novels in with self help.) The whole point, Shtremiel, is that your crappy anecdotal evidence means nothing and makes you an authority on nothing. If you want to say something convincing, why don’t you stop making shit up? No one is going to give you an ‘I know some hasidim who are married and unhappy…’ because the rest of us are smart enough to know that that evidence cuts no ice whatsoever. In fact, you seem to be the only person that does this. Repeatedly. Look above (your story about some ortho guy whose mom here’s her secular friends whining about their sex lives.)

    So before you go accusing people of ‘cowering’ behind stats and semantics (whatever the hell you mean by the latter), why don’t you tell us something that isn’t purely biographical? A smug ‘we both know I’m right’ just doesn’t seem to help here at all.

    Notice, Muffti isn’t saying that you are wrong. It’s just unconvincing to the extreme to be told that some Vancouver bookstores contain big self help sections. Its even more unconvincing to site a divorce rate without breaking it down demographically. It’s even more unconvincing to be told that you’re lived in both worlds so you are some kind of an expert.

    You know Muffti loves ya Shtremiel; so stop doing this. You’re hurting Muffti. You’re hurting yourself. You may even be hurting Canada but Muffti will hold back judgement on that.

    And Muffti is honoured to be Ice Cube to your David Duke.

  38. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 3:11 pm

    …and Tiff, Muffti loves ya. Glad to see you are still clever and feisty as ever. Though, some good words about hockey and beer would be nice.

  39. patty-cake

    3/29/2005 at 3:15 pm

    Hey guys, I think D is right. Tiff and I have been discussing these past few weeks how the postings here have been going downhill (hence her posting). The thing is, it’s cool if you want to have a discussion and learn about stuff, and it’s not so cool if all you do is talk out of your ass about things you think you are an expert at and diss whoever happens to have a different point of view. Where is the jewlicious spirit??? How about we post some more about love and happiness instead of lowering ourselves? Ok, and ck, you’re a sweetie for standing up for Tiff! Just so you know we’ve decided that I will have to marry you one day so Tiff and I can be sisters 😉

  40. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 3:17 pm

    Errr…Janice and all, Muffti meant this to be a joke, a la The Onion. The woman is made up (though Muffti does have a few friends that meet this profile pretty exactly.) The whole point was supposed to be spoof. Muffti just sucks at getting his point across. Thanks for the overly charitable benefit of the doubt.

  41. Janice

    3/29/2005 at 3:37 pm

    Muffti — you have at least given props to The Onion.

  42. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 3:43 pm

    “The whole point, Shtremiel, is that your crappy anecdotal evidence means nothing”

    Well at least that philosophy education will benefit your law career. But this isn’t a court room, so….

    My crappy anecdotal evidence about marriage and relationships is based on the following:

    1) Lived/Living in both worlds (personal)
    2) Education (graduate studies in individual/family counseling)
    3) Professional (career in individual/family counseling)
    4) Personal Interest (currently in a relationship)

    Alas, I’m quite confident that my “anecdotal evidence” means more than nothing. And that traditional Judaism’s approach to dating/relationship/sex is one of the strongest remedies to divorce and mundane sex. But like I mentioned to Ariela, if you don’t believe in this stuff, it isn’t gonna help your relationship.

  43. fineline

    3/29/2005 at 3:48 pm

    Muffti’s original post was, as has now been revealed to the surprise of, um, maybe someone somewhere, to have been a spoof. He was poking fun at those of us who either generalize (“all secular people have screwed up sex lives due to their rampant promiscuity”) or draw conclusions from solely personal experience or personal anecdotes (“My parents stayed married because they never had sex before marriage and that it was great after marriage though which proves…” only that you know too much about my parents’ sex lives). That’s fine, Muffti likes logic, anyway. I personally do believe that we can approach these issues with a sense of logic and using real statistics.

    Here’s an example. I have heard many people talk about how they plan to live together before marriage as a way to test the relationship. Some say it will help them work out problems before marriage. Others say that it will allow them to ease into marriage. Whatever. We’ve all heard it. Now, the traditional approach holds that it is improper to live together before marriage and claims that such behavior weakens marriage. My sweeping generalization, then, is that people shouldn’t live together before marriage, certainly not with more than once (i.e. in more than one relationship). Well, turns out that multiple studies have shown that living together before marriage makes break-up and divorce as much as 50% more likely (myths or just search on google for “cohabitation and divorce”). Does that make sense? Well, yeah. People who live together instead of getting married show some hesitation to make a committment. In addition, they demonstrate that they want to make sure that everything is “just right” if they are going to marry. Later, they will find that not everything is always “just right.” Those people who have practice serial cohabitation are also used to being able to walk away cleanly when something goes wrong…not a skill one wants for keeping a marriage going. Yet, still, a majority of high school students agree with the statement that living together before marriage is a good way to ensure a good marriage.

    My point is that when someone makes what sounds like a moralistic generalization to others, don’t be so quick to assume that they are sitting there at the computer with mind turned off and Mishnah Berurah in hand. We young’uns are proud to live in a fast-paced, changing new world. But we need to be open to the possibility that just because something is new or accepted doesn’t make it right and just because something seems old or prudish is it necessarily wrong.

  44. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 3:53 pm

    Tiff, Patty-Cake and D, please elaborate some more about how Jewlicious used to be better. Scrolling down the home page, I see a large variety of topics, including some that are political and some that aren’t. I also know that in terms of conversations and comments, we have far more traffic and the discussions (at least the ones when I’m not being attacked) are interesting.

    So, what is it you’re not seeing and what are your suggestions. Seriously.

  45. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 3:54 pm

    Oh, and GM, this was both a funny post and hit quite a few nails home.

  46. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 3:57 pm

    Fineline,

    For a young’un, you speak wise words 😉

  47. ck

    3/29/2005 at 3:59 pm

    Patty cake: So sorry to have disappointed my future wife (apparently). I mean we try to be fun, but leave it to a bunch a yids to make pre-marital sex, in the spring time no less, so contentious! Of course none of us are experts in anything and I can’t speak for the others, but to whatever extent I’ve been a poopy head, I apologize.

    Here’s something funny to make up for it. Funny and irreverent. Like Old skool Jewlicious yo.

  48. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 4:08 pm

    Muffti thanks TM. How’s life in Portland these days?

    Fineline, Muffti wasn’t assuming anything; your sweeping generalization sounds reasonable enough he supposes, though like anything else he’d like more than just some speculation about what mindsets people have when they decide to live together. (i.e. would be nice to know what correlation holds between people who live together first and get divorced vs. people that don’t, etc.)

    Shtremiel said

    Alas, I’m quite confident that my “anecdotal evidence” means more than nothing. And that traditional Judaism’s approach to dating/relationship/sex is one of the strongest remedies to divorce and mundane sex.

    Well, that’s very nice for you Shtremiel. Your confidence means everything to Muffti. Clearly he’s been all wrong about everything: after all, you’re so confident. If Muffti had known that, he really could have avoided some wrong turns practically, sexually and spiritually. He would never, for example, have thought that your limited range of experiences didn’t make you an expert on book sales. And sex lives in general. And comparative dating techniques. If only you’d told him at McGill how confident you were, things could have gone differently.

    By the way, Muffti has no legal carreer and never will.

  49. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 4:13 pm

    GM, you should consider law. They pay you to talk and write a lot, and especially to be adversarial.

  50. Esther

    3/29/2005 at 4:15 pm

    CK, that is probably the most horrifically offensive blog I’ve ever seen in my life. (And I just stopped laughing through my indignant grimace.)

  51. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 4:16 pm

    Thanks, TM, but Muffti likes what he does and rather take a bullet in the crotch than do any sort of law whatsoever.

  52. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 4:17 pm

    Anyway GM, let’s move on…to this for instance:

    What’s up with the third person shtick and biting sarcasm? Seriously.

  53. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 4:21 pm

    I have to say, I’d pay big bucks to watch GM address a judge in the third person and with loads, and loads of sarcasm.

  54. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 4:22 pm

    Muffti has no interesting story to tell about the third person references. It started as a bit of a joke. He violated the stricture one day to try to woo back TM as a gesture of respect.

    Biting sarcasm bother you? Muffti thought he was partly taking his lead from you…

  55. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 4:36 pm

    Man, for a guy who worships logic and reason, you sure take things personally, huh?

  56. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 4:48 pm

    Okay, now Muffti, not that I’m defending the legal profession here, but it seems to me that taking a bullet in the crotch just to have a principled stand against practicing law, is not dissimilar to twenty post-puberty years of not touching the opposite sex (much less abstention from all intimacy) because of one’s faith.

    😉

  57. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 5:02 pm

    Wow, in the span of one comment, TM has been able to link genitals from a career in Law to Shomer Neggiah. Incredible.

  58. tiff

    3/29/2005 at 5:03 pm

    Well, this will hopefully be my last comment on this post.
    Shtreimel, I am so sorry to have made you stoop all the way down to my level. Which must pretty low from that high horse of yours, right?
    Fineline: Yeah, I totally misunderstood you. Probably because you’re blonde and I don’t actually read your posts…Yes, haha, a joke.
    TM-Here’s my attempt at a constructive and non-mean spirited suggestion. I love Jewlicious but many of the discussions seem more like pissing contests than anything. Usually that makes me laugh, but I guess the holier than thou attitude just got me today. Actually, I’m not even critisizing Jewlicious it’s just some of the comments/commentators that I take issue with. And that’s cool, I appreciate different views even though they sometimes make me psychotic. Hopefully Patty and Dave have something better to offer.
    ck and Muffti-Thanks for being so nice. Let’s get together later and give Shtreimel the beat down he deserves for sullying my honor.
    Excuse me now, it’s time for some emotionless sex and a six pack of Labatt 50.

  59. patty-cake

    3/29/2005 at 5:20 pm

    Tiffy! Labatt 50? I thought you had more class… But I’m in for the emotionless sex!

  60. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 5:36 pm

    “I am so sorry to have made you stoop all the way down to my level”

    I’ve recovered, thanks.

  61. ck

    3/29/2005 at 5:42 pm

    Tiff wrote: Excuse me now, it’s time for some emotionless sex and a six pack of Labatt 50.

    Tiffy! You ARE my sister after all. Please govern yourself with some decorum! I mean seriously. Labatt 50 Beer? Didn’t Bracha raise you better than that?

  62. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 5:47 pm

    Shtreimel, I am here to amaze and astound you.

  63. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 5:49 pm

    Ha, it’s working TM. Now if I was only single, lived in Montreal, and you were an attractive woman.

  64. patty-cake

    3/29/2005 at 6:38 pm

    Oh my god, ck, we both dissed the beer! That’s it we are soooo totally made for each other! Ok, it’s settled then, no labatt 50 at the wedding 😉

  65. ck

    3/29/2005 at 6:43 pm

    shtreimel: TM does not live in Montreal. Also TM and ck are, despite what people may think, 2 different individuals.

    Patty Cake: Uh ok. Unless my Dad wants some. Tiffy developped her Labatt 50 Beer addicition from somewhere ….

  66. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 6:56 pm

    CK, you mean’s there’s a glimmer of hope?

  67. Grandmuffti

    3/29/2005 at 7:05 pm

    Muffti worships neither logic nor reason; he just thinks that they are useful cognitive tools. And he doesn’t take anything here personally, though he gets a little flustered when he sees someone be rude to Tiff (no matter how rude she was to him). Even if he did worship reason and logic, there is no reason why those should prevent him from taking things seriously. As Hume said:

    It is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.

    Argument by authority? Yes. But what a great authoritah.

  68. Grace

    3/29/2005 at 7:16 pm

    Shtreimel, do you have any male children around the age of 2 or 3? I have a daughter who will be looking for a shidduch in about 18 years or so, and you sound like you’d be an awesome dad and inlaw.

    I have nothing more to add, except that I’ve lived on both sides of the fence, and I’m with Shtreimel!

  69. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 7:35 pm

    GM:
    “though he gets a little flustered when he sees someone be rude to Tiff”
    Ohhhhhhh…all of that huffing and puffing was to save a damsel in distress. It all makes sense now.

    Grace:
    Thanks for the kind words. It’s funny how people discount the “both sides of the fence arguement as being poo poo and silly”. There’s space for both logic and intuition. Personally, I prefer intuition to make judgements about personal and creative matters . I leave logic for driving and figuring out how to wire a MIDI keyboard into my soundcard.

  70. patty-cake

    3/29/2005 at 8:03 pm

    Hey shtreimel (though I must say you are obviously mistaken – your name should really be strudel), I’m sorry you feel like everyone is ganging up on you (or maybe that’s just the way I see it). Thing is, it’s kind of anoying seeing someone try to apply his personal values on everyone else. Just because it worked for you (and didn’t for you mom’s friend) doesn’t mean it’s applicable to everyone. And you know what they say: the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know anything. Oh and ck, sweetie, whatever your dad wants is fine he’s a cutie too 😉

  71. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 8:10 pm

    “Just because it worked for you (and didn’t for you mom’s friend) doesn’t mean it’s applicable to everyone.”

    Ah, but that’s where you’re mistaken. But the whole post-modern/it’s all relative thing has been beaten to death. So we’ll leave it at that. But I hear ya about the preachy thing, it would annoy the f out of me as well.

  72. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 8:40 pm

    I don’t find your comments preachy, Shtreimel. And I do believe personal experience stands for something. But there’s no question that people would take your comments more lightly if you were called Strudel.

  73. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 9:09 pm

    Yeah, but Shtriemel’s are furry, fuzzy and warm. Strudel’s are sticky.

  74. Ziva Lehava

    3/30/2005 at 8:20 am

    Wow. Ok. Wow. Note to self: do not read all 73 comments at one go when the original blog/post is a spoof.

  75. ck

    3/30/2005 at 10:14 am

    It’s not a spoof so much. I think grandmuffti was actually trying to make a valid point. So don’t feel so bad about reading all 73 comments.

  76. Ziva Lehava

    3/30/2005 at 11:25 am

    Oh, I enjoyed the post and comments—-it is more the idea of reading them all at one go and having some disparate views warring in my head!

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