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Orthodox attempting to address pre-marital sex

I don’t have much to say about this unusual article regarding a recent forum held by certain leaders of the modern Ortho community in Israel. I do suggest you read it and the comments that follow. People can be fairly cruel.

For example, I find it shocking and sad that 30% of Orthodox women over 30 remain unmarried, when I presume that not only as a personal matter but also as one of faith, they would very much like to be married. Many of the comment writers, and presumably most Haredi rabbis, would rather these women (and the single men who haven’t found a partner) refrain from enjoying any form of sexual activity until marriage. Maybe it’s me, but sexuality does seem to be a natural and instinctive part of who we are as human beings. Suppressing it seems quite unnatural. Perhaps those who advocate the strictest interpretations of sexual engagement between people should take the natural next step, found some monasteries and call these unmarried individuals nuns?

Is something broken in the system here?

756 Comments

  1. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 2:09 pm

  2. Michael

    3/22/2005 at 2:20 pm

  3. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:23 pm

  4. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:25 pm

  5. Dina

    3/22/2005 at 2:27 pm

  6. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:32 pm

  7. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:35 pm

  8. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:36 pm

  9. Nicolas

    3/22/2005 at 2:37 pm

  10. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 2:41 pm

  11. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:42 pm

  12. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 2:49 pm

  13. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:53 pm

  14. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:54 pm

  15. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 2:55 pm

  16. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 2:57 pm

  17. Esther

    3/22/2005 at 2:58 pm

  18. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 3:03 pm

  19. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 3:03 pm

  20. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 3:10 pm

  21. Dina

    3/22/2005 at 3:15 pm

  22. Dina

    3/22/2005 at 3:16 pm

  23. Esther

    3/22/2005 at 3:16 pm

  24. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 3:17 pm

  25. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 3:20 pm

  26. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 3:30 pm

  27. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 3:31 pm

  28. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 3:36 pm

  29. Esther

    3/22/2005 at 3:55 pm

  30. lynn

    3/22/2005 at 4:05 pm

  31. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:06 pm

  32. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:09 pm

  33. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 4:13 pm

  34. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 4:23 pm

  35. Michael

    3/22/2005 at 4:23 pm

  36. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 4:24 pm

  37. Michael

    3/22/2005 at 4:25 pm

  38. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:32 pm

  39. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 4:36 pm

  40. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:36 pm

  41. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:37 pm

  42. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:40 pm

  43. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 4:41 pm

  44. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:43 pm

  45. Grandmuffti

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  46. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 4:54 pm

  47. josh

    3/22/2005 at 4:57 pm

  48. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 4:59 pm

  49. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 5:01 pm

  50. patty-cake

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  51. shtreimel

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  52. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 5:11 pm

  53. patty-cake

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  54. shtreimel

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  55. Grandmuffti

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  56. patty-cake

    3/22/2005 at 5:15 pm

  57. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 5:16 pm

  58. shtreimel

    3/22/2005 at 5:20 pm

  59. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 5:20 pm

  60. T_M

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  61. Grandmuffti

    3/22/2005 at 5:24 pm

  62. Esther

    3/22/2005 at 5:24 pm

  63. patty-cake

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  64. ck

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  65. T_M

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  66. shtreimel

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  67. Grandmuffti

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  68. Grandmuffti

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  69. shtreimel

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  70. shtreimel

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  71. shtreimel

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  72. shtreimel

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  73. Janice

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  74. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 6:09 pm

  75. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 6:27 pm

  76. Lisa

    3/22/2005 at 7:09 pm

  77. laya

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  78. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 7:27 pm

  79. Yisrael

    3/22/2005 at 7:48 pm

  80. T_M

    3/22/2005 at 8:39 pm

  81. Dave

    3/22/2005 at 10:29 pm

  82. ck

    3/22/2005 at 11:07 pm

  83. T_M

    3/23/2005 at 12:21 am

  84. D

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  85. Dina

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  86. ck

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  87. T_M

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  88. D

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  89. T_M

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  90. Alyssa

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  91. Dina

    3/23/2005 at 2:47 am

  92. Grace

    3/23/2005 at 3:07 am

  93. fuzz

    3/23/2005 at 10:14 am

  94. ariela

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  95. Esther

    3/23/2005 at 11:19 am

  96. shtreimel

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  97. Esther

    3/23/2005 at 1:16 pm

  98. T_M

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  99. T_M

    3/23/2005 at 1:49 pm

  100. fuzz

    3/23/2005 at 2:15 pm

  101. Grandmuffti

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  102. Dave

    3/23/2005 at 3:45 pm

  103. Ben-David

    3/23/2005 at 3:57 pm

  104. Grandmuffti

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  105. T_M

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  106. josh

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  107. Shtreimel

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  108. Ephraim

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  109. Ziva Lehava

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  110. Ziva Lehava

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  111. Ephraim

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  112. Ephraim

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  113. T_M

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  114. Dina

    3/24/2005 at 2:58 am

  115. T_M

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  116. Dina

    3/24/2005 at 3:35 am

  117. josh

    3/24/2005 at 5:12 am

  118. ck

    3/24/2005 at 6:44 am

  119. Grandmuffti

    3/24/2005 at 8:10 am

  120. Esther

    3/24/2005 at 10:21 am

  121. Dina

    3/24/2005 at 1:57 pm

  122. Dina

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  123. Ephraim

    3/24/2005 at 2:00 pm

  124. Dina

    3/24/2005 at 2:25 pm

  125. Rachel

    3/24/2005 at 4:57 pm

  126. Dave

    3/24/2005 at 8:56 pm

  127. Ephraim

    3/24/2005 at 9:38 pm

  128. Dave

    3/24/2005 at 11:08 pm

  129. T_M

    3/25/2005 at 12:03 am

  130. Ephraim

    3/25/2005 at 1:47 pm

  131. Dave

    3/25/2005 at 1:56 pm

  132. T_M

    3/25/2005 at 2:05 pm

  133. Dave

    3/25/2005 at 2:30 pm

  134. Grace

    3/25/2005 at 4:30 pm

  135. Grandmuffti

    3/25/2005 at 5:34 pm

  136. Ephraim

    3/25/2005 at 6:41 pm

  137. T_M

    3/25/2005 at 6:45 pm

  138. Grandmuffti

    3/25/2005 at 7:14 pm

  139. Ephraim

    3/25/2005 at 7:33 pm

  140. Grandmuffti

    3/25/2005 at 7:57 pm

  141. Ephraim

    3/25/2005 at 8:16 pm

  142. Grandmuffti

    3/26/2005 at 10:37 am

  143. Ephraim

    3/26/2005 at 10:51 pm

  144. T_M

    3/27/2005 at 12:24 am

  145. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 9:44 am

  146. ck

    3/27/2005 at 11:22 am

  147. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 1:11 pm

  148. Esther

    3/27/2005 at 3:11 pm

  149. ck

    3/27/2005 at 3:15 pm

  150. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 5:13 pm

  151. Dina

    3/27/2005 at 6:07 pm

  152. T_M

    3/27/2005 at 6:14 pm

  153. laya

    3/27/2005 at 6:28 pm

  154. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 6:38 pm

  155. Esther

    3/27/2005 at 6:49 pm

  156. T_M

    3/27/2005 at 6:52 pm

  157. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 7:43 pm

  158. T_M

    3/27/2005 at 8:39 pm

  159. Dave

    3/27/2005 at 9:29 pm

  160. Esther

    3/27/2005 at 10:50 pm

  161. Ephraim

    3/28/2005 at 8:57 pm

  162. T_M

    3/28/2005 at 9:23 pm

  163. Jewish Mother

    3/29/2005 at 6:49 pm

  164. Jewish Mother

    3/29/2005 at 6:56 pm

  165. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 7:20 pm

  166. Grace

    3/29/2005 at 7:25 pm

  167. shtreimel

    3/29/2005 at 7:43 pm

  168. T_M

    3/29/2005 at 7:59 pm

  169. Dave

    3/29/2005 at 10:45 pm

  170. Michael

    3/29/2005 at 11:19 pm

  171. Ephraim

    3/30/2005 at 1:52 am

  172. T_M

    3/30/2005 at 2:23 am

  173. Dave

    3/30/2005 at 6:57 am

  174. Jewish Mother

    3/30/2005 at 11:46 am

  175. Jewish Mother

    3/30/2005 at 11:49 am

  176. Jewish Mother

    3/30/2005 at 11:54 am

  177. T_M

    3/30/2005 at 12:21 pm

  178. Esther

    3/30/2005 at 12:38 pm

  179. Jewish Mother

    3/30/2005 at 1:24 pm

  180. Shira

    3/31/2005 at 12:42 am

  181. T_M

    3/31/2005 at 12:48 am

  182. shtreimel

    3/31/2005 at 1:03 am

  183. Ephraim

    3/31/2005 at 2:39 am

  184. T_M

    3/31/2005 at 2:48 am

  185. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 10:22 am

  186. Laya

    3/31/2005 at 10:37 am

  187. ck

    3/31/2005 at 11:11 am

  188. Esther

    3/31/2005 at 11:29 am

  189. Grandmuffti

    3/31/2005 at 11:46 am

  190. T_M

    3/31/2005 at 12:02 pm

  191. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 12:49 pm

  192. Michael

    3/31/2005 at 1:05 pm

  193. shtreimel

    3/31/2005 at 2:04 pm

  194. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 2:09 pm

  195. shtreimel

    3/31/2005 at 2:26 pm

  196. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 3:00 pm

  197. shtreimel

    3/31/2005 at 3:02 pm

  198. T_M

    3/31/2005 at 3:17 pm

  199. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 3:29 pm

  200. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 3:30 pm

  201. T_M

    3/31/2005 at 3:32 pm

  202. shtreimel

    3/31/2005 at 3:53 pm

  203. Jewish Mother

    3/31/2005 at 4:12 pm

  204. Ephraim

    3/31/2005 at 5:03 pm

  205. Grandmuffti

    4/1/2005 at 12:02 pm

  206. ahmad

    4/4/2005 at 10:52 am

  207. T_M

    4/4/2005 at 10:59 am

  208. Aish Freak

    4/4/2005 at 2:31 pm

  209. Grandmuffti

    4/4/2005 at 2:31 pm

  210. T_M

    4/4/2005 at 2:37 pm

  211. Aish Freak

    4/4/2005 at 2:45 pm

  212. T_M

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  213. Michael

    4/4/2005 at 3:00 pm

  214. Aish Freak

    4/4/2005 at 3:08 pm

  215. T_M

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  216. Michael

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  217. lynn

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  218. Jewish Mother

    4/4/2005 at 3:46 pm

  219. T_M

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  220. Jewish Mother

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  221. Aish Freak

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  222. Michael

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  223. kelly

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  224. Michael

    4/4/2005 at 7:34 pm

  225. kelly

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  226. Aish Freak

    4/4/2005 at 10:00 pm

  227. Esther

    4/4/2005 at 10:28 pm

  228. T_M

    4/4/2005 at 10:51 pm

  229. shtreimel

    4/4/2005 at 11:59 pm

  230. Michael

    4/5/2005 at 12:29 am

  231. Grandmuffti

    4/5/2005 at 1:15 am

  232. Aish Freak

    4/5/2005 at 7:21 am

  233. josh

    4/5/2005 at 8:40 am

  234. Jewish Mother

    4/5/2005 at 9:18 am

  235. Jewish Mother

    4/5/2005 at 9:23 am

  236. kelly

    4/5/2005 at 4:58 pm

  237. Jewish Mother

    4/5/2005 at 6:19 pm

  238. shtreimel

    4/5/2005 at 6:38 pm

  239. shtreimel

    4/5/2005 at 6:39 pm

  240. kelly

    4/6/2005 at 6:37 am

  241. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 7:59 am

  242. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 9:23 am

  243. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 10:06 am

  244. Michael

    4/6/2005 at 10:15 am

  245. Grandmuffti

    4/6/2005 at 10:22 am

  246. Michael

    4/6/2005 at 10:39 am

  247. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 10:52 am

  248. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 11:25 am

  249. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 11:27 am

  250. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 11:33 am

  251. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 11:40 am

  252. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 11:49 am

  253. Grandmuffti

    4/6/2005 at 11:54 am

  254. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 12:05 pm

  255. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 12:15 pm

  256. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 12:24 pm

  257. Grandmuffti

    4/6/2005 at 12:55 pm

  258. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 12:57 pm

  259. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 1:10 pm

  260. Grandmuffti

    4/6/2005 at 1:30 pm

  261. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 1:32 pm

  262. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 1:40 pm

  263. Michael

    4/6/2005 at 1:50 pm

  264. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 1:51 pm

  265. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 2:01 pm

  266. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 2:04 pm

  267. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 2:19 pm

  268. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 2:27 pm

  269. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 2:37 pm

  270. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 2:44 pm

  271. Jewish Mother

    4/6/2005 at 2:50 pm

  272. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 3:21 pm

  273. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 3:22 pm

  274. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 3:26 pm

  275. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 6:45 pm

  276. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 7:10 pm

  277. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 7:34 pm

  278. Ephraim

    4/6/2005 at 8:12 pm

  279. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 8:19 pm

  280. Ephraim

    4/6/2005 at 8:29 pm

  281. Aish Freak

    4/6/2005 at 8:39 pm

  282. T_M

    4/6/2005 at 9:00 pm

  283. Ephraim

    4/6/2005 at 9:08 pm

  284. shtreimel

    4/6/2005 at 10:37 pm

  285. Dave

    4/6/2005 at 10:51 pm

  286. shtreimel

    4/6/2005 at 11:45 pm

  287. Dave

    4/7/2005 at 12:19 am

  288. Esther

    4/7/2005 at 2:14 am

  289. kelly

    4/7/2005 at 6:29 am

  290. kelly

    4/7/2005 at 6:30 am

  291. Aish Freak

    4/7/2005 at 7:16 am

  292. Dave

    4/7/2005 at 7:26 am

  293. kelly

    4/7/2005 at 8:43 am

  294. Aish Freak

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  295. kelly

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  296. kelly

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  297. Aish Freak

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  298. kelly

    4/7/2005 at 10:14 am

  299. Aish Freak

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  300. Aish Freak

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  301. T_M

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  302. shtreimel

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  303. Aish Freak

    4/7/2005 at 1:42 pm

  304. Grandmuffti

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  305. Dave

    4/7/2005 at 2:00 pm

  306. kelly

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  307. Ephraim

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  308. kelly

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  309. Aish Freak

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  310. T_M

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  311. Ephraim

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  312. Ephraim

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  313. shtreimel

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  314. T_M

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  315. shtreimel

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  316. T_M

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  317. shtreimel

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  318. T_M

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  319. shtreimel

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  320. Dave

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  321. shtreimel

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  322. Ephraim

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  323. ck

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  324. Ephraim

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  325. ck

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  326. T_M

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  327. Grandmuffti

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  328. kelly

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  329. T_M

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  330. T_M

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  331. Grandmuffti

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  332. kelly

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  333. Grandmuffti

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  334. T_M

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  335. Grandmuffti

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  336. Ephraim

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  337. kelly

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  338. T_M

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  339. kelly

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  340. kelly

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  341. T_M

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  342. kelly

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  344. Aish Freak

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  345. kelly

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  347. kelly

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  349. Michael

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  350. kelly

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  351. Grandmuffti

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  352. Aish Freak

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  353. ck

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  354. kelly

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  355. T_M

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  356. kelly

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  357. T_M

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  358. kelly

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  359. T_M

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  360. kelly

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  362. Mowgli

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  363. T_M

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  364. Aish Freak

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  365. kelly

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  366. Ephraim

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  367. kelly

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  368. kelly

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  369. Ephraim

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  370. lynn

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  371. Ephraim

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  372. kelly

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  373. Michael

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  374. Ephraim

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  375. T_M

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  376. Ephraim

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  377. T_M

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  378. Michael

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  379. T_M

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  380. Michael

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  381. T_M

    4/8/2005 at 5:24 pm

  382. shtreimel

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  383. T_M

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  384. shtreimel

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  385. shtreimel

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  386. Ephraim

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  387. shtreimel

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  388. Eeshaish

    4/9/2005 at 11:56 pm

  389. Mowgli

    4/11/2005 at 11:35 am

  390. Aish Freak

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  391. Mowgli

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  392. TM

    4/11/2005 at 1:14 pm

  393. kelly

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  394. TM

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  395. Grandmuffti

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  396. Dave

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  397. TM

    4/11/2005 at 6:53 pm

  398. Grandmuffti

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  399. TM

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  400. Ricker Aish

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  401. Michael

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  402. Mowgli

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  403. Aish Freak

    4/12/2005 at 8:57 am

  404. Michael

    4/12/2005 at 9:09 am

  405. Mowgli

    4/12/2005 at 10:00 am

  406. TM

    4/12/2005 at 11:09 am

  407. Ephraim

    4/12/2005 at 1:31 pm

  408. shtreimel

    4/12/2005 at 1:40 pm

  409. TM

    4/12/2005 at 1:42 pm

  410. Mowgli

    4/12/2005 at 1:44 pm

  411. Ephraim

    4/12/2005 at 1:55 pm

  412. TM

    4/12/2005 at 2:01 pm

  413. Grandmuffti

    4/12/2005 at 2:17 pm

  414. Mowgli

    4/12/2005 at 2:28 pm

  415. Grandmuffti

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  416. Ephraim

    4/12/2005 at 2:31 pm

  417. Ephraim

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  418. ck

    4/12/2005 at 2:35 pm

  419. Grandmuffti

    4/12/2005 at 2:39 pm

  420. Grandmuffti

    4/12/2005 at 2:45 pm

  421. Grandmuffti

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  422. Mowgli

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  423. TM

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  424. Mowgli

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  425. Michael

    4/12/2005 at 3:14 pm

  426. Esther

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  427. TM

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  428. shtreimel

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  429. Ephraim

    4/12/2005 at 3:45 pm

  430. Ephraim

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  431. shtreimel

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  432. TM

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  433. Mowgli

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  434. Grandmuffti

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  435. TM

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  436. TM

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  437. Aish Freak

    4/13/2005 at 8:53 am

  438. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 11:40 am

  439. Mowgli

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  440. Grandmuffti

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  441. TM

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  442. Ephraim

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  443. Ephraim

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  444. Grandmuffti

    4/13/2005 at 2:36 pm

  445. Grandmuffti

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  446. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 2:43 pm

  447. TM

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  448. Ephraim

    4/13/2005 at 2:50 pm

  449. Ephraim

    4/13/2005 at 2:56 pm

  450. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 3:05 pm

  451. Grandmuffti

    4/13/2005 at 3:11 pm

  452. TM

    4/13/2005 at 3:11 pm

  453. TM

    4/13/2005 at 3:15 pm

  454. Esther

    4/13/2005 at 3:18 pm

  455. kelly

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  456. Ephraim

    4/13/2005 at 3:33 pm

  457. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 3:47 pm

  458. Mowgli

    4/13/2005 at 3:50 pm

  459. Ephraim

    4/13/2005 at 4:02 pm

  460. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 4:14 pm

  461. Michael

    4/13/2005 at 4:23 pm

  462. TM

    4/13/2005 at 4:23 pm

  463. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 4:28 pm

  464. Ephraim

    4/13/2005 at 4:31 pm

  465. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 4:35 pm

  466. TM

    4/13/2005 at 4:36 pm

  467. Mowgli

    4/13/2005 at 4:58 pm

  468. Mowgli

    4/13/2005 at 5:56 pm

  469. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 6:18 pm

  470. Mowgli

    4/13/2005 at 6:27 pm

  471. TM

    4/13/2005 at 6:29 pm

  472. Shtreimel

    4/13/2005 at 6:31 pm

  473. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 6:55 pm

  474. TM

    4/13/2005 at 6:57 pm

  475. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 6:59 pm

  476. kelly

    4/13/2005 at 7:06 pm

  477. My Urban Kvetch 2005

    4/13/2005 at 9:44 pm

  478. kelly

    4/14/2005 at 5:36 am

  479. Aish Freak

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  480. Mowgli

    4/14/2005 at 9:28 am

  481. Aish Freak

    4/14/2005 at 10:24 am

  482. Esther

    4/14/2005 at 10:36 am

  483. Mowgli

    4/14/2005 at 10:51 am

  484. Aish Freak

    4/14/2005 at 11:08 am

  485. Mowgli

    4/14/2005 at 11:28 am

  486. Mowgli

    4/14/2005 at 2:58 pm

  487. Mowgli

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  488. Michael

    4/14/2005 at 3:13 pm

  489. TM

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  490. Esther

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  491. TM

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  492. Aish Freak

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  493. Mowgli

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  494. kelly

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  495. Michael

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  496. kelly

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  497. Ricker Aish

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  498. LL

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  499. TM

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  500. Esther

    4/19/2005 at 9:00 pm

  501. TM

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  502. LL

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  503. Ricker Aish

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  504. LL

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  505. Ricker Aish

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  506. LL

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  507. Randomguy24281

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  508. TM

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  509. Jewish Mother

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  510. TM

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  511. Jewish Mother

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  512. shtreimel

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  513. Jewish Mother

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  514. shtreimel

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  515. T_M

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  516. shtreimel

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  517. Jewish Mother

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  518. shtreimel

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  519. Jewish Mother

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  520. shtreimel

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  521. Jewish Mother

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  522. T_M

    4/27/2005 at 4:10 pm

  523. Jewish Mother

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  524. shtreimel

    4/27/2005 at 4:44 pm

  525. Jewish Mother

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  526. Michael

    4/27/2005 at 5:20 pm

  527. Jewish Mother

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  528. T_M

    4/27/2005 at 6:16 pm

  529. Michael

    4/27/2005 at 6:18 pm

  530. Shtreimel

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  531. T_M

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  532. Shtreimel

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  533. Shtreimel

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  534. T_M

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  535. Shtreimel

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  536. T_M

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  537. Jewish Mother

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  538. Jewish Mother

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  539. Filter

    4/29/2005 at 10:28 am

  540. T_M

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  541. Filter

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  542. Jewish Mother

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  543. shtreimel

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  544. Michael

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  545. shtreimel

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  546. Jewish Mother

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  547. Jewish Mother

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  548. Esther

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  549. Jewish Mother

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  550. Michael

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  551. jsirpicco

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  552. shtreimel

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  553. shtreimel

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  554. T_M

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  555. Jewish Mother

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  556. T_M

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  557. Esther

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  558. jsirpicco

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