}

¿Quien es más Jewliciouso? Batalla de los innovadores!

Hoppa!

There are, as always, lots of buzzwords flying around in Jewish communal settings. One of these is “innovation.” Young Jews know that they are Jewish, but many either don’t know what that means or don’t like the traditional options available to them to manifest their identities. So many of them are reinventing their Jewish identities and making up new ways in which they can not just be Jewish, but do Jewish. We’ve seen this in the emergence of indie minyans across North America as well as in the proliferation of Jewy projects, most of which, like their creators, are unaffiliated with the broader community. Is this a good thing? What the hell do I know. But today we present you with two innovators who have been getting a lot of buzz lately. In this, the inaugural edition of ¿Quien es más Jewliciouso? (apologies to 70’s era SNL for the name and to Sarah Silverman for the graphic) you get to decide who you feel is more Jewy, good for the Jews, cool or Jewlicious (in the literal sense – no one featured in this series is in any way affiliated with the Web site of the same name). So without further ado, here are our candidates:

Ariel Beery Dan Sieradski
Ariel Beery

Latest Buzz: Authored article in Haaretz with partner Aharon Horwitz:

Instead of providing massive and recurring grants, philanthropists should focus on translating founders’ “sweat equity” into viable prototypes through small grants of seed capital. Then, if the market responds favorably, philanthropists could help bring a venture to scale while requiring sustainability. Finally, out-sourcing, mergers and acquisitions would be encouraged to cause entrepreneurs to share best practices with one another.

Projects: Editor and Publisher, Presentense Magazine, Co-Founder PresenTense Institute of Creative Zionism an incubator for young Jewish innovators.

Affiliated Web sites: Blogs of Zion, ArielBeery.com

Politics: Shomer Hatzair in his youth

Facebook Status: 851 friends, Graduated from Columbia, Currently attending NYU, is a “Neo-Rabbinic Zionist Karaite” and ladies, he’s single!

Dan Sieradski

Latest Buzz: Addressed the GA in Nashville:

We are overdue for establishing an open marketplace for Jewish ideas, bootstrapped by communal funds. Or as Jonathan Sarna called it in a recent JTA interview, what we need is more Jewish venture capitalism. “We only have to look at the high-tech industry,” said Sarna, “to see that all ideas don’t all pan out, but all you need is one Google or Mapquest to justify a whole lot of ideas that don’t go anywhere.”

Projects: Editor, Publisher and Founder Jewschool, Creator ShulShopper, first part of the JewItYourself, meant to assist people looking for appropriate minyans, indie or otherwise.

Affiliated Web sites: Orthodox Anarchist, personal Web site. JTA, Web Editor.

Politics: Orthodox Anarchist

Facebook Status:483 friends, no educational affiliation listed, but ladies, he’s single too!

Now vote! You can only vote once as we’ve tracked your IP address and have placed a cookie on your computer. Of course you could delete all your cookies and change your IP address but that would make you a dick. I think I’ll keep this poll up for 5 days.

Sorry, there are no polls available at the moment.

Voting is Over. Thanks For your participation.

¿Quien es más Jewliciouso?

  • Ariel Beery (30%, 221 Votes)
  • Dan Sieradski (30%, 220 Votes)
  • This is stupido (24%, 178 Votes)
  • Equally Jewliciouso (17%, 125 Votes)

Total Voters: 744

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109 Comments

  1. Sarah

    12/8/2007 at 1:02 pm

    Mon cher… 😉

  2. themiddle

    12/8/2007 at 1:12 pm

    Can I have another photo of each guy?

  3. Sarah

    12/8/2007 at 1:21 pm

    TM, in beachwear?

  4. themiddle

    12/8/2007 at 5:23 pm

    No, please! And no frontal nudity. I just can’t really tell what they look like and I judge books people by their covers looks.

  5. MarkeR

    12/8/2007 at 5:37 pm

    Orthodox Anarchist? With terms like “open marketplace” and “venture capitalism” Siedarski sounds more like a young Republican. Actually, so does Beery…

  6. Sarah

    12/8/2007 at 5:47 pm

    Ah, so you’ve judged me by my looks?

  7. themiddle

    12/8/2007 at 7:04 pm

    Sarah: very favorably! But have you noticed there is NO picture of me to be found on this site?

    MarkeR: never mind that, ck was so kind as to ignore the use of other interesting phrases and words by the Orthodox Anarchist. As to your point, however, I don’t think either bochur is speaking to a Republican/Democratic divide. Their interest is more likely to involve the goal of finding funds for their and others’ projects and the frustration of watching mainstream Jewish organizations use resources on other projects that target similar audiences but with different approaches of which these two are critical.

    Actually, from that perspective, I don’t know that ck compared them on the issues that matter to me. Beery’s interest in and approach to Israel is far more to my taste than Sieradski…

  8. gweitz.ar

    12/8/2007 at 8:50 pm

    I love Shushopper, its such an innovative idea!!
    But Ariel is the “King of Jew Media”, an HaShomer Hatzair boguer and a “Neo-Rabbinic Zionist Karaite”. His (and Horwitz’s) Creative Zionism house was (and is) an amazing proyect that only lacked a good narguila (hookah)…

  9. Sarah

    12/9/2007 at 1:09 am

    TM, I’m well aware of that, that’s why I’ll draw you with MS Paint 🙂

  10. Y-LOVE

    12/9/2007 at 11:53 am

    “Facebook status”? Oy VEY what has it come to? 😀

    Perhaps this is an online fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel — only those whose names are written in a (Face)book(.com) are remembered?

    (Just as an aside, is this the beginning of an ongoing thing? Are we going to start seeing single blogger mashup “competitions” on Jewlicious on a regular? 😀 )

  11. Sarah

    12/9/2007 at 2:17 pm

    Indeed, Y-Love, you’ll have to compete with Muffti 🙂

  12. ck

    12/9/2007 at 4:49 pm

    Y-Love, dude… the info imparted will depend upon the individuals/objects/things involved. Like if we were to do Y-Love vs. Mattisyahu, that wouldn’t work because Mattis is married and had 2 kids. If we were to do Latkes vs. Sufganiyot it wouldn’t work either. I think we may do stuff like Lower East Side vs. Pico Robertson. Or Little Italy in NYC vs. The Mission District in SF. What? Little Italy isn’t a Jewish neighbourhood? Heh. Don’t get me started.

    gabriele: How are you? Is my Spanish correct? Thanks for the comments!

  13. Sarah

    12/9/2007 at 5:07 pm

    ck, do Willi vs BP vs CH and you’ll receive thousands of comments 😉

  14. Y-LOVE

    12/9/2007 at 5:57 pm

    Latkes vs. Sufganiyot is also a pressing issue that needs to be addressed.

    In-depth.

    With applesauce.

  15. phoebe

    12/9/2007 at 6:13 pm

    re: “Latkes vs. Sufganiyot”

    The University of Chicago’s been doing “Latkes versus Hamentachen,” typically in a huge auditorium, for something like 50 years and just came up with a book about it. So maybe stick with the man-to-man competitions.

  16. No way

    12/9/2007 at 7:19 pm

    From Dan’s Facebook chanukia: This Chanukah, I’m lighting a candle each night to commemorate those whose lives have been taken or destroyed by fervent nationalists and morally skewed religious fundamentalists.

    The miracle of the menorah’s light does not belong to Judah Maccabe. It belongs to those who suffered under his tyranny, and those who suffer to this day under men and women who think and act just like him.

    *swoon* so brave and so articulate, he has my vote.

  17. Rabbi Yonah

    12/9/2007 at 7:41 pm

    It doesn’t take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Organized Jewish religious life is stagnant. But your neshama still wants a connection. I estimate that we have lost over 75 percent of our Jewish diversity since 1939.

    And what does buzz mean and where is that buzz happening ck? is the buzz contagious, can others get buzz off their buzz?

  18. gweitz.ar

    12/9/2007 at 8:38 pm

    ck, your Spanish is excelent, except for my name’s spelling (it’s gabriel).

    where do you get the ideas?? this blog keeps getting better!!!! and without comments about lame Adam Sandler songs this chag

  19. Starre

    12/9/2007 at 9:28 pm

    Dan is of the best guys I know…. super-generous and fun to hang out with to boot. Vote for Dan!

  20. grandmuffti

    12/9/2007 at 9:48 pm

    Rabbi, you live in LA and don’t know how to get buzzed???

  21. Rabbi Yonah

    12/9/2007 at 10:43 pm

    GM- Perhaps I was too subtle? Buzz is what buzz does.

  22. Esther

    12/10/2007 at 12:24 am

    Seriously, CK, you and I are the only ones who understand that SNL reference. And I am scared for us both. I need to vote for Ricardo Montalban.

  23. Pingback: Jewschool » Blog Archive » How can no one have posted about this yet?

  24. ck

    12/10/2007 at 2:15 am

    Seriously Esther, what is the meaning of this?:

    From Overheard in New York:

    Then I’ve Slept with Two!

    Guy #1: Wait, who here has slept with a drug dealer?
    Guy #2: I have.
    Guy #3: I have.
    Guy #4: I have.
    Guy #2: You have not.
    Guy #4: Yes, I have — Esther.
    Guy #3: Esther’s a drug dealer?
    Guy #4: Hells yeah!

    –Columbus, between 67th & 68th

  25. yoseph leib

    12/10/2007 at 3:12 am

    Lower east side vs. The mission district is more evenly matched. Who would vote Pico robertson, and why should someone who does be allowed to vote? The upper west side vs. Pico, that might be valid. if we’re playing that game.

  26. torahtzivalanumoshe

    12/10/2007 at 1:07 pm

    I don’t think either of them promote actual Judaism, more like a bagels-n-lox kinda secular humanism, the one Chanukah is all about destroying

  27. torahtzivalanumoshe

    12/10/2007 at 1:08 pm

    i also think that Daniel’s quote is an exercise in delusion and that if these are your jewish heroes then you guys are to be pitied

  28. Simcha Daniel

    12/10/2007 at 3:57 pm

    I chose Dan, because I think he’s more influential. But really, I want to stop this “I’m more Jewish than you” trend…

  29. Y-LOVE

    12/10/2007 at 7:00 pm

    I feel like all of this conversation is going on while avoiding the pink elephant in the room, and we should focus our attention on the pressing issue, Latkes vs. Sufganiyot: Perspectives on Jewish Identity Through Sugar and Shmaltz.

    Papers, anyone?

    🙂

  30. davis

    12/10/2007 at 7:52 pm

    yitz-

    the latter was one of the arguements made at this years’ (63rd) annual latke v hamentash debate of uchicago. twas awesome and hilarious.

  31. Giyoret

    12/10/2007 at 7:54 pm

    I am voting on the “hubba hubbba” factor. And “hubba” part one goes to Ariel, and “hubba” part two goes to his dad, who I found on his site . The Beery clan gets my vote.

    But Ricardo Montalban was definitely tempting as a write-in.

  32. aaron

    12/10/2007 at 8:06 pm

    you guys and your food debates.

    i’m voting for beery because he never sleeps and he always talks like he’s a rabbi from the talmud.

    WHY SHOULD YOU GO TO ISRAEL? WHY? WELL THAT’S A GOOD QUESTION. A QUESTION I HAVE THE ANSWER TO. BUT I WANT MORE. I’M HUNGRY. HUNGRY FOR ANSWERS. GIVE ME THEM.

  33. themiddle

    12/10/2007 at 8:24 pm

    What’s wrong with you kids? The reason to vote for Beery is that he’s the one who defends against the charge of Israeli apartheid is clever enough that you can’t put one over on him (click on that classic link, you’ll thank me).

  34. Anon

    12/10/2007 at 11:21 pm

    Dan has the integrity and talent to have a significant transformative impact on the future of our community. The mark he has already made outshines anything his rival is capable of.

    Ariel uses “sophisticated” phrasing to convey what can best be described as antiquated ideas. The emperor is not wearing any clothes, people. Let’s move on!

  35. themiddle

    12/11/2007 at 1:03 am

    183 out of 457 so far vote for neither one or both equally.

    And Anon, they both do just fine in terms of having an impact.

  36. Ariel Beery

    12/11/2007 at 10:03 am

    I have to admit that this whole thing smells of sinat hinam.

    A strong Jewish People will only be maintained if we are strong enough to disagree and put forward competing arguments and modes of action.

    Unfortunately, our community had gotten complacent in recent years, used to public agreement and lauding of any new idea or project that show that the ‘kids’ care. As I have found, when one disagrees publicly with one of these ideas or projects, and provides alternative solutions and competing arguments, venom is unleashed and shallow judgments of content or character are the result. Censorship abounds and our community as a whole is hurt.

    We would do well to reject this shallowness, and return to the ethics of our ancestors, and learn to incorporate a healthy respect for dissent into our actions — and deep wrestling with concepts and ideas before judgment.

    I request this vote be closed, and that popularity contests of this sort never again be held.

  37. Sarah

    12/11/2007 at 10:11 am

    Ariel, but then again, such contests might draw the kind of attention to the very issue you addressed on a lighter note. Afterall, there’s no such thing as bad publicity. You and Dan just shouldn’t take the results of that poll to heart, whatever they may turn out to be.

  38. grandmuffti

    12/11/2007 at 11:58 am

    Well, Ariel just lost Muffti’s vote for lack of sense of humour and using a chain of argument he found rather hard to follow.

    Just kiddin’ Beery! Point well taken. But did our ancesters really have such a healty respect for dissent? Whne was this period?

  39. Sarah

    12/11/2007 at 12:00 pm

    Muffti might want to consider Gotthold Ephraim Lessing…

  40. ck

    12/11/2007 at 2:34 pm

    Aw Ariel. This vote isn’t serious. I mean it’s in Spanish! It was never meant to be a popularity contest. It was meant to stimulate discussion. I mean cripey! 520 people voted?? I looked at the logs – it all looks legit too. So what are we supposed to talk about? How about the nature and scope of innovation – points you yourself brought up in your dissent, points worthy of exploration. So far we have been spared any venom and I think most people know to use this forum for the purpose for which it was intended.

    Sina’at Chinam. Dude! That was harsh…

    🙁

  41. grandmuffti

    12/11/2007 at 2:58 pm

    ¿Un voto en español no es sersious? ¡Vete a la mierda compinche!

  42. themiddle

    12/11/2007 at 4:34 pm

    Sinat chinam? Not at all. On the contrary, I thought this was charming and fun. If somebody had gotten embarrassed in the voting or the comments, I’d understand, but that’s not how it has gone at all. Also, I was expecting 50-100 votes so this was a very nice success, especially because Ariel and Dan are running so close to each other.

    As for our ancestors…there’s a certain comic by Eli Valley and David Kelsey you might want to see…

  43. Sarah

    12/11/2007 at 4:52 pm

    TM, I brought up a dead European philosopher, but Muffti didn’t respond to it. Where have I failed?

  44. themiddle

    12/11/2007 at 5:37 pm

    Patience, Sarah, Muffti likes to think before he speaks.

  45. grandmuffti

    12/11/2007 at 7:09 pm

    Muffti does, but he can honestly say he knows little about German Christian Philosopher theologians. Can you say moreabout this dead guys relevance?

  46. chutzpah

    12/11/2007 at 7:27 pm

    wow…now I feel guilty for taking such pleasure in the public humiliation of the Dr. in Passaic who molested his patients in between kiruv sessions.

    Yes, I unleash venom but it’s only because I have no one healing me.

    I take back my vote and join Giyoret in voting for the hot Beery Dad.

    I am going to try to be a nicer from now on, but I probably won’t be funny anymore.

  47. Giyoret

    12/11/2007 at 8:27 pm

    Hubba, hubba… 😉

  48. Giyoret

    12/11/2007 at 8:40 pm

    Hi Muffti, I can help you with that philospher guy Sarah mentioned. He lived, oh, quite a while ago, relatively speaking, and because of his life experiences and observations, he came up with this set of ideas about why things were the way they were, and what effect they had on other ideas and things. He lived in Germany, which is a country in Europe; today it is part of the European Union, but then it wasn’t.

    Though a great many people have ideas that they just keep to themselves, this man actually expressed his in various ways. This is how others became aware of his existence. And because of that, today his name, and his views are known by people who never even met the man. Like other philosphers before and after him, he attempted to answer questions to which there are no obvious answers.

    Hope this clears it up for you. I know how academically inclined you are.

    Hugs and Kisses,
    your study pal,
    Giyoret

  49. Sarah

    12/11/2007 at 9:02 pm

    Certainly, he’s considered a predecessor to or a rather great influence on philosophers of the Enlightment such as Immanuel Kant.

  50. yoseph leib

    12/11/2007 at 11:30 pm

    Y-lova’: Latkes beats sufganiyot, times a hundred. At least it’s possible to make righteous Latkes.

  51. grandmuffti

    12/11/2007 at 11:49 pm

    Errr…thanks for that rather pedantic summary, Giyoret 🙂

  52. chutzpah

    12/12/2007 at 12:15 am

    “Sapere Aude”! One of my favorite sayings. It would nice to meet a man who didn’t think it was the recruiting motto for the Marines. What did we say 90 minutes with Muffti would get me?

  53. themiddle

    12/12/2007 at 1:37 am

    $700 in the hole?

  54. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 2:08 am

    Muffti likes to keep things surprising. But he’s never had any complaints…

  55. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 2:15 am

    It’s even nicer if a man understands the categorical imperative. “Handle so, dass die Maxime deines Willens jederzeit zugleich als Prinzip einer allgemeinen Gesetzgebung gelten könne.”

  56. Anon

    12/12/2007 at 2:16 am

    The Sinat Chinam accusation caused me to regret and reconsider the tone of my comment. I believe it was the result of healthy debate, but perhaps there were other influences. I apologize for any discomfort my comments may have caused.

    I do believe in Dan’s potential and feel he has shown tremendous promise.
    Perhaps Ariel will demonstrate similar promise to me in the future.

    I wish them both the best of mazal and hatzlacha and thank them for their contributions.

    B’shalom v’kavod.
    A

  57. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 2:35 am

    With all due respect, Sarah, the controversies over how to properly understand the categorical imperative, in its many (not clearly equivalent) formulations (Muffti believes there 6 or 7 in the groundwork alone) abound and are the subject of much spilled ink in Kant studies and the areas it touches. So your standards may be a bit over the top…

  58. Esther

    12/12/2007 at 10:21 am

    I’ve been trying to follow all this philosophy, but it’s no use. I just Kant.

  59. Giyoret

    12/12/2007 at 10:53 am

    Glad I could be of help, Dr. Muffti. I know about a lot of things, so just ask. As for the categorical imperative, well, you know, there are many perspectives on this. Some theories are more popular and widely studied than others, but what they all agree on is this: the more we widen the lens on the categorical imperative, the more imperative it is to understand the global view. And, fundamentally, this is generally what gets lost in the shuffle, and obfuscates the question.

    But it also makes for fascinating discussion, doesn’t it?

  60. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 11:25 am

    I was quoting the one out of “Kritik der praktischen Vernunft”. The different formulations in his various works are distinctively different, but the semantics is pretty clear in German whereas translations into English require paraphrasing, hence don’t convey the intention in all its rhetoric sharpness. But for Muffti’s sake, I’ll lower my standards: I’ll appreciate of any philosopher who doesn’t grow a moustache like Nietzsche’s.
    As for Jewish dissenters, what’s Muffti’s take on Heine?

  61. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 12:41 pm

    Well, of course the semantics of german are pretty clear in German…but Muffti thought the whole project of understanding Kant wasn’t just a literal ability to give meanings to his words but to develop the proper framework right in which one can really evaluate conceptual and practical possibilities relative to imagined scenarios in which maxims are being treated as universal law. The semantics of ‘treat every one only as an end, never as a means’ is on a technical level very clear but how that actually constrains action is a tangle that is gordian in complexity. Rhetorical sharpness is not the problem; providing a real theoretical model to back up the imperative is and it is the subject of so many articles, dissertations, books and tomes that Muffti hesitates to think that any person should really go about saying they understand it.

    Notice htat Kant happily calls all 6 or so ‘formulations’ of the categorical imperative, suggesting that no one of them has the exclusive right ot the title, also suggesting that they are all equivalent extensionally. Muffti is no ethicist and he’s not even very ethical but it’s hard to see how this could be, but that is part of the interpretive challenge you lay down as a requirement on a good man 🙂

    Just sayin’. And don’t lower your expectations for Muffti’s sake!

    as for Heine, Muffti has no idea who he is. Giyoret, you wanna take that one? So far you are doing so well!

  62. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 2:50 pm

    p.s. muffti realizes what he gave wasnt’ a translation of what you gave in german, the first formulation, but of the second. But he thinks its a bit easier to translate the second than the first.

  63. Y-Love

    12/12/2007 at 3:06 pm

    I don’t think that this comparison brings in sinat chinam, and on the contrary: the only other feasible publicity-generating side-by-side juxtaposition would, of course, be a mixed-martial-arts UFC-style deathmatch, which could potentially involve violations of halacha.

    And be quite messy.

    Instead, I think jewlicious took the high road with this one.

  64. chutzpah

    12/12/2007 at 3:59 pm

    Ok, enough with dead German guys.

    Here’s one: Which national anthem was sung better at the Mayweather vs. Hatton fight. This time even I have to go with Tyrese.

    http://tomjonesinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/anthem.mov

  65. Giyoret

    12/12/2007 at 4:25 pm

    Dearest Muffti, of course I’ll take Heine. I’m somewhat surprised you don’t know him—yet, ironically, that is exactly the way many of his nearest and dearest felt about him, too. The fact that a graduate of a doctoral program at a major American university is unaware of Heine’s contributions to philosophy is telling. He, like many others, lived in a world of ideas, ephemeral thought processes that defied the constraints of practical application. Throughout his life, it was these very ideas, philosophical ones, that drove his ambition; indeed, we may say that he lived for them, and with them, and even–in difficult times– despite them.

    Convinced as he was of the veracity of his beliefs, he took the opportunities that came his way to publish and teach. Naturally, he had his detractors; opposed to the ideas Heine articulated so vehemently, they argued against him point by point in lectures, print, and popular song. Undeterred, Heine lived his life, methodically refining what he endearingly called his “philosophical beliefs”, until he was laid to rest at a ripe old age.

    So you can see what he contributed was pretty noteworthy.

  66. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 5:37 pm

    Heine was only in his late fifties when he died; he was buried on the Montmartre cemetery. The inscription on his tombstone says, “Hier liegen meine Gebeine. Ich wünschte es wären deine. Heinrich Heine” (= Here lie my bones. I wish they were yours. Heinrich Heine) Heine was a journalist, poet and one of the most satirical and critical writers on Prussianized Germany, which caused him to live in exile for quite some time. Born to an assimilated Jewish merchant family in Düsseldorf, Heine early on realized that he enjoyed pursuing academic studies, but would not be able to enrol at any university because of religious adherence. He converted pro forma to pursue academic studies, but felt close to his Jewishness throughout his life. He wrote remarkable essays and narrations on Judaism-related topics such as “Prinzessin Sabbath” and “Der Rabbi von Bacharach” (which unfortunately is only available in fragments these days). In addition, he wrote the famous ballad “Die Loreley”, which became an extremely popular and famous song throughout the German-speaking world particularly during the time of German Romanticism. The Nazis burnt Heines books, but since “Die Loreley” had already become a popular folk ballad, they just had it edited in publications saying the author was unknown – you’ll still find books published these days which’ll claim such. BTW, Heine also stated, “Wo man Bücher vebrennt, verbrennt man auch Menschen.” (= Where they burn books, they also burn humans.) The aspect about Heine Muffti might find most interesting is that Heine was a student of Hegel’s.
    As to the categorical imperative, Muffti should consider Kant’s religious background and upbringing. Then it becomes evident that what Kant postulated had been put into easier words way earlier.

  67. themiddle

    12/12/2007 at 5:44 pm

    Well, of course the semantics of german are pretty clear in German…but Muffti thought the whole project of understanding Kant wasn’t just a literal ability to give meanings to his words but to develop the proper framework right in which one can really evaluate conceptual and practical possibilities relative to imagined scenarios in which maxims are being treated as universal law. The semantics of ‘treat every one only as an end, never as a means’ is on a technical level very clear but how that actually constrains action is a tangle that is gordian in complexity. Rhetorical sharpness is not the problem; providing a real theoretical model to back up the imperative is and it is the subject of so many articles, dissertations, books and tomes that Muffti hesitates to think that any person should really go about saying they understand it.

    Notice htat Kant happily calls all 6 or so ‘formulations’ of the categorical imperative, suggesting that no one of them has the exclusive right ot the title, also suggesting that they are all equivalent extensionally. Muffti is no ethicist and he’s not even very ethical but it’s hard to see how this could be, but that is part of the interpretive challenge you lay down as a requirement on a good man.

    See, it’s possible to just skip the whole foreplay thing and jump right to the dead philosphers.

  68. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 5:46 pm

    TM, I happen to enjoy Muffti best when he’s reasoning 😉

  69. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 6:38 pm

    As to the categorical imperative, Muffti should consider Kant’s religious background and upbringing. Then it becomes evident that what Kant postulated had been put into easier words way earlier.

    Muffti is afraid that your breadth of knowledge is better than your Kant scholarship (and Muffti ahs next to none of the latter). Kant’s general purpose was to give a non-religious foundation for ethics that could be located in reason, not god or divine command. Muffti seems to remember a book about this, religion within the bounds of reason alone, or something like that, by said author. So, truthfully, to take Kant’s religious background and upbringing woudl be to completely miss the point of what Kant was up to.

    No offense or nothin’. But if you’re gonna start dropping the K-bombs, ya gotta be up for the fight 🙂

  70. Giyoret

    12/12/2007 at 7:51 pm

    Wake me up when this is over, and we’re back to relevant topics like naked romps in sukkahs.

  71. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 10:06 pm

    Then again, Muffti, Kant is not considered a denier of religion, plus you may not take one’s background out of the equation as it inevitably influences one’s way of thinking. His concept of religion is bare of kitsch. So, how good’s Muffti’s German so we may continue discussing this in the sources’ original language?

  72. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 10:14 pm

    Muffti’s german sucks way too much to discuss this in the source’s language. But he totally disagrees about taking away ones background: Muffit doens’t really care what influenced Kant’s thinking: he’s a philosopher, not a psychologist or historian of ideas. So he cares aout hwat Kant said, not aobut hwat he thought.

    Furthermore, whether Kant was a DENIER or religion is irrelevant to the question: the question is whether or not he demonstrated that his system was independant of religion.

  73. grandmuffti

    12/12/2007 at 10:15 pm

    Now let’s all get naked in teh succah with a bottle of baby oil, load of vodka and play twister with Giyoret!

  74. Giyoret

    12/12/2007 at 10:19 pm

    Muffti baby, I am soooo there. But let’s you and me test it out first, away from prying eyes…….
    xo
    😉

  75. Sarah

    12/12/2007 at 10:34 pm

    If Muffti’s German were better, he’d see that Kant’s references to religion don’t make his reasonings independent of it. Translations always include interpretations. And if Muffti hadn’t specialized in his partcular field of philosophy, his religious background might show as well – it occasionally does in his syntax 😛 Also, what I stated above is not that Kant was religious, but that you cannot just forego where he came from and that his background provided a more easily digestable approach to the intention of the categorical imperative; afterall we were not discussing his essay “Was ist Aufklärung?”.
    BTW, vodka sucks.

  76. Giyoret

    12/12/2007 at 10:44 pm

    I often wonder what Aufklarung is, so wow, I’m in good company–look at that, me and Kant wondering the same things.

  77. grandmuffti

    12/13/2007 at 12:00 am

    there are two senses (at least) in which reasonings can be indepedent: 1) there may be a causal connection between his ones religion and your reasoning (2) religion might play a role in justifyign your reasoning. Psychologists and biographers may care about the 1st. Philosophers care about the (2)nd.

    And so muffti happily discards and forgoes all that biographical shit and takes Kant seriously when he claims that ethics has a non-religious foundation in reason.

    If Muffti doesn’t, Kant’s ethical work becomes useless to all those who don’t believe in religion. Like the Grand Muffti. Its precisely because you can separate his religion and his ethics that the work that his work has independent interest.

    and vodka doesn’t suck!

    But let’s stop fighting. It makes baby ck sad.

  78. Sarah

    12/13/2007 at 2:42 am

    Certainly, I was only waiting for Muffti to lay out the different premises 🙂 Afterall, that usually is the first step to do, but since Muffti’s superior to me, I was waiting for him to do it.

    Vodka sucks royally 🙂 particularly if you mix it with French dressing (don’t ask…)

    Have we been fighting? We’ve only scratched on the surface of the whole issue IMHO 🙂 Plus ck knows that Muffti and I get along well, so I suppose he’ll rather be entertained when reading this thread.

  79. grandmuffti

    12/13/2007 at 3:16 am

    Muffti isn’t superior. He’s completely confused by the french dressing comment but won’t ask. as for CK being enteratined, Muffti is pretty sure that anyone reading is bored to near death at this point.

  80. themiddle

    12/13/2007 at 3:33 am

    yup

  81. Y-Love

    12/13/2007 at 11:53 am

    …..or oil wrestling.

    The thing about oil wrestling in the sukkah is — you think it’s bad when pine needles get into the soup? OY VEY!!

    😀

    (I think my Jew-lebrity deathmatch between Ariel Beery and Mobius was a better segue, tho.)

  82. Y-Love

    12/13/2007 at 11:54 am

    (and about that me vs. muffti mashup… :D)

  83. Sarah

    12/13/2007 at 12:16 pm

    Y-Love, I’d vote for you ’cause Muffti chooses to be atheist. Pine needles probably taste similar to rosemary.

    Muffti should be more optimistic 😛

  84. grandmuffti

    12/13/2007 at 12:28 pm

    But Muffti is so happy! why ruin it with theism?

  85. Sarah

    12/13/2007 at 12:48 pm

    So Muffti may rightfully enjoy the achievements of religion such as weekends off, holidays off, holiday food as well as civil and workers’ rights.

  86. rushkoff

    12/13/2007 at 3:19 pm

    This is pretty silly, don’t you think? There’s enough in-fighting in Judaism already. The bad blood between these two is no secret to the kinds of people who run a site like this.

    So why do it? Who are you so mad at? Who are you helping?

    You got your funding, right? Don’t go spending it just to screw with people. That’s not nice. Make people support Israel while feeling cool about it, or whatever it is your mandate is.

    This is not the path.

  87. Progressive Jewbilation

    12/13/2007 at 3:20 pm

    This is so damn stupid. Way to lower standards in the Jewish blogosphere. Remind me to point this out to any Jewlicious hack I meet in person at some silly panel discussion.

  88. chillul Who?

    12/13/2007 at 3:28 pm

    This poll makes me sad.. why stir people up to fight?
    Ariel doesn’t like it, Dan doesn’t like it

  89. Rabbi Yonah

    12/13/2007 at 3:42 pm

    Dear Rushkoff…

    What funding?

    You got your funding, right? Don’t go spending it just to screw with people. That’s not nice. Make people support Israel while feeling cool about it, or whatever it is your mandate is.

    I happen to think this was funny, although perhaps it could ire people. But we like to keep folks on their toes.

    As far as funding goes, they must have given it to the wrong blog.

    Our coffers are empty.

  90. rushkoff

    12/13/2007 at 4:05 pm

    http://jewliciousfestival.wordpress.com/sponsors/

    SPONSORS
    PATRONS:
    Deanna & Allen Alevy
    Barbra & Ray Alpert
    Breslauer-Soref Foundation
    Brian and Sarah Chisick

    SPONSORS & PARTNERS: List in formation

    2nd Street Beauty
    Alpert Jewish Community Center, Long Beach
    American Apparel

    Avi Chai Foundation (ICC Grant)
    Birthright Israel
    The Andrea and Charles Bronfman Philanthropies
    Cal Kosher
    Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf
    Consulate General of Israel, Los Angeles
    EZ Up Tents
    GesherCity-Long Beach
    Heeb Magazine
    Hillel Foundation of Orange County
    Israel on Campus Coalition
    JDub Records
    Jewish Community Foundation of Long Beach
    Jewish Family and Children’s Services of Long Beach
    Jewish Federation of Long Beach
    Jewish Student Weekly
    JMG Music
    Let My People Sing
    Livnot
    Mirembe Kawomera Project
    Namak Magazine
    OC Jewish Life
    Oranim-Jewlicious Birthright Israel Trip
    PresenTense
    StandWithUs.com

    Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation (ICC Grant)
    Trader Joe’s

    Plus that book Roger Bennett puts out – the top 50 cool young Jewish things for people and philanthropies to give money to? I think it’s called Slingshot, and you guys are in there! It’s the newest edition, so maybe it’s not public yet.

    That should really help. Seriously, if you don’t know about it, you should. It’s a big deal these days. They usually have a party that the fifty organizations get invited to, where they can mix with philanthropists.

    Anyway, my point wasn’t to criticize your funding. Just to say that this couldn’t even be in the funding agenda of a totally toothy zionist organization. It’s just too mean and destructive. It’s more like the kind of stuff Gawker does, and they usually pick famous people who can’t really be hurt by it. Plus Gawker is in show business, not the business of spirituality, stimulating Jewish culture, or Mid-East politics.

  91. Ruby K

    12/13/2007 at 4:18 pm

    wack and unnecessary.

  92. Cole Krawitz

    12/13/2007 at 4:24 pm

    same ole, same ole. ashkenazi bio men pitting each other against each other…fighting over each other in all their glory. when are y’all gonna stop playing this out. this is so tired…and such a waste…i’m annoyed it was even brought to my attention. and that’s the thing, it would have to be brought to my attention, because otherwise, it neither impacts, nor supports or helps, my life…at all.

    y’all are smart folks…let’s put our strengths and talents to use in a better way.

  93. Cole Krawitz

    12/13/2007 at 4:28 pm

    I should clarify it wasn’t Ariel and Dan choosing this though. Apologies since my previous comment would suggest otherwise. From knowing both of them on the minimal level I do individually, I don’t think either of them would find this useful either.

  94. Cole Krawitz

    12/13/2007 at 4:32 pm

    Ditto Ruby K! I love the short and sweet!

  95. Jewish Mother

    12/13/2007 at 4:33 pm

    Sarah, you are a very serious sort of a woman. One learns a lot reading you.

  96. Sarah

    12/13/2007 at 5:06 pm

    I’ll donate a bucket full of salt as one grain supposedly won’t suffice…

  97. Jack

    12/13/2007 at 5:27 pm

    it’s totally lame that Jewlicious feels it necessary to inflame tensions between two people who already have a contentious relationship…

  98. Sarah

    12/13/2007 at 5:32 pm

    It’s even lamer to consider this poll a reason to fight and to assume bad intentions on the part of Jewlicious; I think both gentlemen in question are smart enough not to take the outcomes of this poll to heart, but to understand they’ve / their projects have been given some extra attention.

  99. themiddle

    12/13/2007 at 6:47 pm

    6 people, all in agreement, appear within a couple of hours of each other and suddenly we have far more aggression and vitriol in this nice poll than has been seen so far (except for one comment by Anon) in either the discussion or the post. Is this groupthink?

    Get over yourselves, kids. You don’t like the poll? There’s a category in the voting just for you. Vote and get your friends to vote. It’s not as if it’s that hard to point to far more unpleasant posts at places where I’ve seen some of your names posting.

    As you well know, had ck or anybody here wanted to stir the pot, it would be stirred. Both individuals were treated respectfully, with their accomplishments listed. An individual stumbling into this little contest would and should assume that they’re being asked to vote in a fun contest for one of two accomplished individuals who are active in the Jewish community. Nothing more. As you can see from the voting and discussion, the results have been positive for both parties.

    As for the supposed funding this site gets, let me know about it because as the janitor, I deserve my cut. Sadly, although Rabbi Yo raises money to put on the amazing Jewlicious Festival productions, it is barely enough and it has little (I would say nothing) financial to do with our blog. More important, if you know somebody who wants to give Rabbi Yo and ck money to put on more of these Festivals, if the price would be no more polls, they might be tempted. Any takers?

  100. themiddle

    12/13/2007 at 10:17 pm

    The clock is running down and this poll was timed by ck to end today in about 45 minutes.

  101. E

    12/14/2007 at 12:39 am

    Dan and Ariel, both princes of different tribes of Israel. Our tribes used to be hereditary; today they are ideological. Debate is as crucial as finding common ground.

    My view that Dan’s pursuit of justice is preferable to Jewlicious/Be’eri’s quest for a moderate mediocracy is merely my own tribal propensities and blind spots combining to indicate who my tribe can more easily collaborate with.

    I think is the subtext of this poll, apart from the above, is that Daniel grew quite fatigued from the straw-man role that parve “pro-Israel” activists need him for in order to maintain their ever-shifting middle ground. He declared a unilateral cease-fire and is being dragged back into a situation of ‘avak lashon hara’ – his name is being put up there, begging folks to write stuff like, “You kidding me? If that dude were a supermarket he’d be called Traitor Joe!”

    In my opinion, Dan’s shenanigans have come nowhere near causing the kind of damage that Jewlicious and Shalem Center’s unquestionable backing of the Disengagement have brought to our doorstep.

    My vote: Equally Jewlicioso.

  102. Sarah

    12/14/2007 at 2:17 am

    E, don’t blame it on ck if people don’t know how to voice their opinions in a decent manner (and how to punctuate after introductory if-clauses) 😉

    Dead philosophers anyone?

  103. Pingback: Jewlicious » Blog Archive » ¿Quien es más Jewliciouso? Batalla de los innovadores! - Postscript

  104. Rabbi Yonah

    12/14/2007 at 5:32 pm

    Rushkoff —

    all those sponsors pay for JEWLICIOUS FESTIVALS- It pays for food, lodging, flights, performers rentals etc. ck, myself, and Jewlicious make nothing for organizing this.

    Most of the sponsorships are in-kind. They give us product.

  105. Oyster

    12/17/2007 at 1:08 am

    phoebe wrote: stick with the man-to-man competitions.

    From my birthright trip, I know that Phoebe is all about the man-on-man. Yossi & Jagger, much? 😉

  106. Hartfield Zody

    1/12/2008 at 10:47 pm

    Mobious is anti zionist!

  107. AB Suchs

    3/29/2008 at 4:14 am

    Just going through some old messages when I cam across this message from Dan Sieradski:

    Subject: Got a second to help out a friend?

    Would you be ever so kind to visit http://jewlicious.com/?p=3987 and do either (or each) of the following:

    1. Vote for me, and encourage your friends to do so.

    2. Leave a comment indicating how lame it is that Jewlicious feels it necessary to inflame tensions between two people who already have a contentious relationship.

    The person who I’m matched up against in this poll, Ariel Beery, is a former client of mine who has called me both a terrorist hugger and the cause of the Holocaust on his blog and in the press. He has sought to defame me because of our political differences and because he is competing with my organization for funding.

    The publisher of Jewlicious, who himself bears a grudge against me for personal reasons, who has also attacked me numerous times because of our differing political views, and who is also competing with me for funding, is all too aware of the bad blood between me and Beery. Beyond Jewlicious’ contributors also staffing Beery’s magazine PresenTense, Jewlicious and Beery are now also partnering on various other projects.

    They are running this poll to get to me — since I’ve been ignoring
    them both now for months — and I would appreciate if my friends would make them both feel really stupid for trying to pick a fight with me.

    Thank you.

    I guess it’s too late to vote, but can I ask this: WTF?

  108. ck

    3/29/2008 at 5:41 pm

    *Sigh* This is like heartburn that won’t go away. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this plea, but it is the first time someone posted it online. So now I have to respond. Again.

    I knew that there was some bad blood between Ariel Beery and Dan Sieradski, but at the time of the poll, these two very different individuals were both publicly saying very similar things and I felt it was newsworthy. I devised the idea of a poll so as to spur discussion. I didn’t think anyone would take the poll part of this thing seriously – ie as if it was some kind of popularity contest or something. I avoided any kind of editorial or personal commentary so as to be fair, and I think it’s been noted that the text was indeed very fair. Also the final results showed that more people voted for neither individual person reflects that.

    That having been said, this plea sent by Sieradski contains information that is wrong. Sieradski’s organization may be competing with Beery’s for funds, but I certainly don’t know anything about that.

    While it’s true that I now bear a grudge against Sieradski for personal reasons, like I said, I nonetheless went out of my way to be fair. No one reading this poll would have any clue that I had anything personal against Sieradski.

    As for my “attacks,” that’s what we in the real world call debate and discussion. I somehow manage to retain cordial relationships with many people with whom I have serious ideological differences.

    With respect to the issue of competition for funds, Sieradski knows that I have always been supportive of his efforts, even going so far as to help generate revenue for Jewschool. The only funding we have ever applied for was for the Jewlicious Festival and as far as I know, there was never any competition with Jewschool or Sieradski.

    If any Jewschool contributors have anything to do with Presentense, it’s certainly done of their own volition. I don’t know of any projects that Jewlicious and Presentense are partnering on – and I would know.

    Sieradski’s contention that this poll was done in tandem with Presentense is a pure fabrication, and frankly, I’m a little embarrassed for him. While Sieradski has many detractors (and fans) he is, as he has always been, his own worst enemy.

  109. winkelman

    3/30/2008 at 11:19 pm

    Very often we are our own worst enemy as we foolishly build stumbling blocks on the path that leads to success and happiness.

    -Rabbi Louis Binstock

    It’s no surprise to me I am my own worst enemy.

    -Lit

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