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Messianic “Rabbi” School on Facebook

If they were not on Facebook inviting people to join their fanpage, I might never had heard of this. Well, perhaps I would have when I got to LA, which seems to be the hive of their activities.

Apparently LA is the center of some really frightenting parasitic religious groups. There is of course Madonna’s Kabob Center and there is this: The Messianic Jewish Theological Institute. With campuses in LA and Jerusalem, I might add.

I know that we have serious problems out there. Big, and Major problems. With Israel, Iran, terror, unemployment. All kinds of “mean, ugly and nasty” stuff, to quote Arlo Guthrie. So why waste a few keystrokes on these guys?

Well they are on Facebook, and I feel a moral obligation to inform and warn the general public about this parasitic group that regularly feeds on unsuspecting Jews.

Ok. Now you know. If you are Jewish, please stay far far far far away from these guys and you will be fine.

From their Rabbinical Program Desciption:

RO’I offers practical courses in congregational leadership. RO’I also provides spiritual and vocational direction for Rabbinical candidates. While SJS is a distance learning program, RO’I offers intensive, face-to-face courses given in conjunction with UMJC conferences and retreats.

MJTI is an approved school of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations. We offer the courses required for the UMJC Madrikh (Licensure) Certificate and S’micha (Ordination). You can learn more about the MJTI courses by reading the MJTI Program Guide.

However, MJTI does not offer the Madrikh and S’micha credentials themselves. These are offered by the UMJC. For more information about the Madrikh (Licensure) Certificate, and an application for the program, please visit the UMJC website.

107 Comments

  1. MB

    6/18/2009 at 5:07 pm

    Gee, that’s a lot of venom and hyperbole backed up by very little damning information. Seriously, dude, calm down. It’s not all about you, yo.

  2. JB

    6/18/2009 at 7:48 pm

    Rabbi Yonah-

    I don’t see the big deal. I mean, is this really worth using phrases such as “parasitic,” “regularly feeds on unsuspecting Jews,” and “please stay far far far far away from these guys and you will be fine.”

    Umm, do you really take me for an idiot to not be able to make up my own mind. Plus, it seems these are not ypical “Jews for Jesus.” They are well educated, and trying to get Jews to remain Jews, commited to Torah, observance, and Jewish life.

    One can disagree on the Jesus part, but hen again, I do not believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Masianic either. And yet, I would never use the labels toward Chabad that you would label these Messianic Jews with.

    Wanna know what the real problem is? The lost Ahavas Yisroel – our love for fellow Jews – whether or not we agree with them.

  3. clarity

    6/18/2009 at 7:56 pm

    It seems my previous comment hasn’t appeared yet. Did you receive it?

  4. clarity

    6/18/2009 at 8:08 pm

    Rabbi Yonah,

    It is hard to even take this serious. You’d think I was reading a bad article on The Onion.

    This kind of attitude is what leads to all sorts of ills like “State-Sponsored Persecution in Israel” as its termed by Jewcy.

    Is this not Lashan hara? Is there not a better way to engage your intellectual audience than on the level of a toddler?

    As you know, there is a lot of diversity in the Jewish world including many who think Jewlicious fell off the wagon. Wouldn’t you encourage those who differ to learn for themselves rather than swallow a red pill into a Matrix of malicious ignorance?

    So it is in this case. At a minimum, let’s prefer clarity to agreement and honor each other as Am Israel.

    Lead the way Rabbi, lead the way.

    (it seems links to other sites prevent comments from being seen…)

    l’hit

  5. themiddle

    6/18/2009 at 8:32 pm

    Dear gentlemen, Messianic “Jews” are actually Christians. They should call themselves Christians and leave the Jewish people alone. In case you were unaware, major funding for the Messianic “Jews” comes from the Southern Baptists who claim the same proselytizing mission of converting the Jews to belief in Jesus as Christ. This is a red line, no less than any Chabadnik who believes Schneerson was the Messiah.

    Rabbi Yonah is right to warn people and you folks should really stick to your Christianity and leave conversion of the Jews to some grander power, like God. If he exists.

    Thanks.

  6. Javier

    6/18/2009 at 9:15 pm

    I’m a catholic, and my question intends to be respectful.
    There are buddhist jews, and atheist jews. Why couldn’t there be christian jews?.
    The late Jean Marie Lustiger, Cardinal Archbishop of Paris, defined himself as a jew (his grandfather was a rabbi), and he never saw his catholicism as a rejection of his judaism.

    Edith Stein, Raisa Maritain, and Simone Weil come also to mind.

    I hope nobody finds this offensive.

  7. froylein

    6/18/2009 at 10:08 pm

    Messianic Jews are not Christians as they don’t get baptised and don’t partake in the eucharist. In that they believe they know who the Messiah is, they are no different than Chabad (several of my Chasidishe rabbinical friends mused Chabad has turned non-Jewish because of that).

    Whenever I told people that there are Evangelical groups actively trying to convert Israeli Jews to their variety of Christianity (which is considered shady by most major Christian denominations, too), pretty much everybody (and I was highly amused to see later that EV had similar thoughts) shrugged it off, telling me Evangelicals were supportive of Israel. They’re supportive of Israel because they believe their Messiah will return there, but if you read the fineprint of their eschatology, they also believe that Jews must be disunited for their Messiah to return – a theological approach most other Christian denominations consider appalling.

    The group in question is openly messianic, so I think JB is right in that people should be left to making up their own minds.

    Javier, you’re addressing a dilemma many people find themselves put in when they admit to being comfortable with a mixed background. I appear to be the only blogger on here who admits to having a mixed background, but genetics tells me you cannot have blue eyes if all of your ancestors wandered the desert way back. (As for me, my eyes are so dark that sometimes people ask whether the colour is real.) I think it’s the insecurity that came with fleeing Europe in many cases and then trying to form a religious identity abroad that has led many people to a black-or-white way of thinking, no go in between. It takes more education to deal with two backgrounds and define your own position than to have your position cleanly laid out for you. But that’s not the issue mainstream Judaism has got with Messianic Jews, rather: with Messianic Jews that believe Jesus of Nazareth to have turned Messiah. A little more honest and profound looking into the development of Jewish eschatology would tell them that the Messianic idea is relatively new to Judaism and throughout history has largely been influenced by Christian concepts – in both rejecting and accepting ways -, so “true Jews” might want to reflect on Messianism altogether. I know a lot of people hate when I say this, but cultural influences between Judaism and Christianity have gone both ways as Jews have never lived in a hermetically-sealed or semi-permeable bubble.

  8. themiddle

    6/18/2009 at 11:01 pm

    The problem I have, putting aside the question of a messiah for a minute, is sneaky proselytizing that includes outright lies, particularly to less observant and religiously informed Jews.

  9. froylein

    6/18/2009 at 11:39 pm

    Middle, I think it doesn’t get much more bold than calling oneself “Messianic”. As a Chasidic friend of mine said, he’s wary of anybody who claims to have seen the light – whether in a religious or secular way.

  10. Observer

    6/18/2009 at 11:52 pm

    Where’s the fire? They’re Jews who think Jesus is the Messiah. That’s all. This institution in particular has a reputation for encouraging Jews who believe in Jesus to be better Jews … observe kashrut, Shabbat, taharat mishpochah … pursue justice, give tzedakah, etc. I wish I could say as much for the average Reform and Conservative institutions, most of which are in a state of existential crisis. Tell me, please, how are Messianic Jews any different than the Mashiachist Lubavitchers?

  11. themiddle

    6/19/2009 at 12:19 am

    They’re not. The Lubavitchers who actually believe Schneerson is the Messiah have removed themselves from Jewish life which is why they tend to keep it quiet when not around compatriots.

    But you can’t be a Jew and think that Jesus is the messiah. That makes you a Christian.

  12. Rabbi Yonah

    6/19/2009 at 12:41 am

    It is for this discussion that I posted the article.

    Many of so-called Messianic Jews are not Jewish, but Christians, born Christians. They have every right to their belief, but not to call their practice Judaism.

    They can practice all the kashrut, shabbat, mivkah, they can even pray three times a day.

    But, as long as they believe in Jesus, they are no longer practicing Jews.

    They can use any name they want for what they do, but not “Jewish”.

    That is why they are parasites, they use Judaism for their own purpose, and by attaching their religious practice to Jewish religious practice they seek legitimacy.

    But just because a monkey lights shabbat candles it doesn’t make her a Jewish. Performance of certain mitzvot does not make you Jewish, sorry.

    There is no such thing as Jewish diversity including these groups.

    It is not lashon hora, but a mitzvah to warn people of their activities.

    I LOVE the Jews JB, and please do not insinuate that I don’t. Loving Jews doesn’t mean accepting their beliefs when they are antithetical to Judaism. Loving Jews means warning Jews that this Messianic stuff is completely unJewish, completely Christianity. Loving Jews is warning them that this is no place for a nice Jewish boy or girl.

    And last but not least.

    Please keep Chabad out of this – I am not a chabadnik, this is not a chabad blog, nothing in this article is related to chabad. Its a total red herring.

    And if you are a such a believer in Jesus, that is totally your prerogative.

    More power to you. Its just not Jewish, or Judaism.

    We do not want the world to be Jewish, but believers in God, in morality.

  13. froylein

    6/19/2009 at 1:40 am

    What makes a person a Christian is baptism + eucharist. And the Chabad angle is not a red herring; if you believe in a Messiah person as opposed to the original Jewish concept of a Messiah theory, then it doesn’t matter what person you link this belief to. The Lubavitchers still comprise an active and publicly visible group in Jewish life – over here they provide most of the Orthodox rabbis around, kashrus supervision etc. If mainstream Judaism thinks Messianic Jews are not Jewish, then they should stop using the services of Chabad-Lubavitch when travelling abroad, because then their food isn’t kosher either. Disagree with people theologically all that you want, but don’t apply double standards.

  14. themiddle

    6/19/2009 at 2:14 am

    Froylein, I agree about Chabad and disagree about Christianity. The baseline for Christianity is belief in Jesus as more than a regular person. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a pre-Augustine Roman Christian or a full fledged Catholic or a “messianic Jew.” The eucharist is not the basis of the Christian faith. Jesus as messiah or as lord is.

    Chabad has many believers who do not believe that Schneerson is the messiah just as they have many who do. The difference between them is precisely the same difference that delineates Christians from Jews. I know R. Yonah doesn’t want to go there but this is a sad fact. While we hope they wake up from their confusion, I personally see little difference between believing that a messiah has arrived today versus believing that he came 2000 years ago. Neither comports with Jewish faith.

  15. froylein

    6/19/2009 at 7:04 am

    Middle, trust me, without baptism and eucharist, no Christian denomination will consider you Christian. Accepting those two sacraments is key for being Christian. There are tribal religions that have adopted several religious influences, and those also consider Jesus the Messiah, Islam considers him a prophet-cum-messiah.

    As little as you can look into the heads / hearts of a Chabadnick, as little can you claim that Messianic Jews are out there to fish Jews with bad intentions. There are proselytizers that have bad intentions, but the majority is convinced of actually doing something good. The question that should rather be asked is how come that Jews ditch organised Judaism and start looking elsewhere. A content husband doesn’t turn a cheater just because the occasion / opportunity arises.

  16. LB

    6/19/2009 at 12:21 pm

    According to Judaism they are Jews. “ישראל שחטא – ישראל הוא” Loosely, translated – a Jew that has sinned – is still Jewish. In Judaism one cannot stop being Jewish ever. That being said, they are preaching Christianity. That is the problem.

    Regarding Chabad’s messianism, the late Rabbi Shach was rumored to have said that Chabad is the closest thing to Judaism…

  17. Javier

    6/19/2009 at 1:02 pm

    Froylein,

    The Eucharist is central to Roman Catholicism and to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I’m not sure if it is that important, or even exists, in some Evangelical Christian denominations (They don’t have the Mass, and may have reduced the Sacraments to Baptism only).

  18. froylein

    6/19/2009 at 1:59 pm

    Javier, Protestant / Evangelical denominations don’t call it Eucharist but Final Supper. All (but the Salvation Army and a few Adventist denominations, the theologies of which are considered somewhat shady by the major denominations) those denominations though accept the validity of the “original”, dominical sacraments established by Jesus, namely baptism and Eucharist / Final Supper. The issue between the Catholic churches and the non-Catholic denominations is not the question whether the Eucharist / Final Supper constitutes as a sacrament but the question of whether transubstantiation occurs or the sacrament is of symbolic value.

  19. Ephraim

    6/19/2009 at 2:39 pm

    Both Middle and froylein are correct: from a strictly technical standpoint, without baptism and acceptance of the sacraments (whether or not one believes Transubstantiation actually takes place so that the worshiper is consuming the actual flesh and blood of Jesus [Catholic] or that it is only symbolic [Protestant]) one cannot be considered a true Christian, regardless of one’s personal beliefs.

    Consequently, if there are any actual Jews involved in this “Messianic” narrishkeit, they are, from a technical standpoint, still Jews (one cannot, after all, sew one’s foreskin back on). However, their beliefs and practices are antithetical to Judaism as defined by mesorah. And that is the point: it is the mesorah as interpreted by the rabbis, that defines what Judaism (as opposed to Jewishness) is or is not. Individual Jews make their own choices as to whether, or to what degree, they will follow this mesorah. It still defines what Judaism is and isn’t however.

    These messianists may or may not be Jews (my guess is that many, if not most, are not). But what they are doing is not Jewish.

  20. clarity

    6/19/2009 at 2:43 pm

    Rabbi Yonah, thank you for your thoughtful reply. We cannot solve this here but maybe we can give people some better information to base their decision.

    What is Judaism? And what is Jewish? Who defines this?

    Avraham was the first Hebrew by Hashem’s unmerited choice and election. Abraham didn’t pass through between the animal, only Hashem did.

    Abraham’s response gave him favor with Hashem but his election was already secure.

    The same is true of Isaac and Jacob who were heirs of this election and still needed to choose to give their allegience to Hashem as a response to their election.

    In the words of Orthodox Theologian Michael Wyschogrod:

    “The election of the people of Israel as the people of God constitutes the sanctification of a natural family…the Jewish body as well as the Jewish soul is holy”

    Election (Hashem’s choice) and our obedience (beliefs, halakah, derek eretz, etc.) are two discrete matters.

    Even if a Jew were to believe themselves or another to be the Messiah as the empty chair for Eliyahu at every Bris anticipates, and as may have been the case with Rav. Shneerson, they are still part of the natural family called Israel.

    You may call them apostate, but you cannot call them גוים.

    Since when did Judaism become so concerned with what people believe anyway? Some in my Jewish family may believe in reincarnation. It’s in my Artscroll Siddur they tell me! Some don’t believe in any Messiah, even in the future. Some don’t even believe in God.

    Missionary tactics and Jewish costumes aside, can someone tell me why believing any particular thing makes one non-Jewish?

    And what to they become by the way? Being a “Christian” is assenting to an idea, a world view, not a carnal family.

    Does the Jew become “Humanish?” A carnal orphan without a family? Shouldn’t the criteria used in the creation of the National Homeland for the Jews (now called the State of Israel) be of some relevance here?

    Forgive the descent, but Hitler wouldn’t care what any Jew believed. They were part of the family of Israel. Period.

  21. Observer

    6/19/2009 at 2:48 pm

    Last I checked, the fact that you disagree with a fellow Jew doesn’t make that person not-Jewish. Neither does it make that person a parasite. The reason you’ve been accused of lacking ahavas yisroel is because your name-calling reeks of arrogance.

    Jewish thinking on the Messiah has evolved over time, and different interpretations of messianic literature have come in and out of fashion in various sects. The fact that your thinking is situated in a particular moment in time based on a limited set of facts doesn’t put those who have or will disagree with you outside the ambit of Judaism. After all, who gave you the patent on Judaism, and who’s to say you’ve got it exactly right?

    Calling Messianic Jews “Christians in disguise” is a lot like calling Democratic fans of Abraham Lincoln “Republicans in disguise.” Today’s Republican Party may claim a progressive lineage and herald Lincoln as its founder, but it bears little resemblance to him or his ideals today.

    The same principles apply to this discussion. Non-Jews hijacked the life’s work of a Jewish man, pushed out his Jewish followers, polluted him and his ideals beyond recognition, and created a new religion out of him. It still doesn’t make him or the Jews who follow him arbiters or members of 21st century Christianity.

    And “they are because I say so” isn’t enough, either.

    • britmilah

      12/1/2011 at 8:48 am

      Observer,

      Your response is compelling and accurate. I especially like your penultimate paragraph which captures the truth and identifies the flaws in an age old argument. I hope by me quoting your words others will see the truth in your words. We are all one!!!!!

      ” … Non-Jews hijacked the life’s work of a Jewish man, pushed out his Jewish followers, polluted him and his ideals beyond recognition, and created a new religion out of him. It still doesn’t make him or the Jews who follow him arbiters or members of 21st century Christianity.”

  22. LB

    6/19/2009 at 2:53 pm

    Observer – the people involved may be themselves Jewish (or members of the Jewisph people) if they were born Jewish.

    Their ideas and philosophy are inherently un-Jewish. The belief in Jesus as the messiah and son of G-d (regardless of the man’s own life) is Christian. For one, Judaism doesn’t recognize the corporeality of G-d. They espouse Christian beliefs and ideology – if that’s just an aspect of Judaism, then why not call all Christians Jews?

    • britmilah

      12/1/2011 at 9:01 am

      ” if that’s just an aspect of Judaism, then why not call all Christians Jews?”

      LB. That one line highlights a truth many are unaware of. The truth is, there is no such thing as Christianity. Jesus was never considered to be Christian. That was a pejorative reserved for Jewish people who believed him to be the Messiah. This phrase was used decades after his death and resurrection. Therefore, he could have never be “Christian,” neither were the early followers. They were all observant Jews who simply thought the promise of Messiah was fulfilled. What’s so wrong with that?

      Which ties into your sentence and Observer’s point. So called “Christians” are actually following a largely Jewish faith. So if anyone has been converted, it was them. They just don’t know it, because they as Observer eloquently pointed out, “hijacked the life’s work of a Jewish man, pushed out his Jewish followers, polluted him and his ideals beyond recognition, and created a new religion out of him.”

  23. JN

    6/19/2009 at 4:01 pm

    Believe that Jesus or Yeshua is the Messiah is a very Jewish thing that was taken by the christians(former pagans). The Jews are getting back this right to believe in Jesus like Messiah of the Jews (because that He was kill).

    “Judaism doesn’t recognize the corporeality of G-d”: G-d always have wanted to live with His people and because of that the messianic jews says that G-d came like a man to do the Torah and save his people.

  24. Rabbi Yonah

    6/19/2009 at 9:06 pm

    I love it when practicing Christians, Jews For Jesus and “Messianic” Jews who are 1000 percent outside of Judaism lecture Jews on what is Judaism. Love it.

    Our concept of the messiah completely rejects Jesus. No amount of “evolution” is needed.

    Judaism has ALWAYS been about what people believe AND what people practice.

    Many of those so-called Messianic Jews are really NOT JEWS, not born Jewish.

    And while people like to quote “A Jew even if he sins is a Jew,” is SPECIFICALLY describing a Jew that left Judaism, and then desired to return. Do we accept them. Yes. Of course, emphatically.

    But it does not mean that while they are involved in completely Christian parameters of belief that we have to describe them as Jews.

    They cannot have an aliyah, a wedding, cannot perform any function. They cannot serve as a witness or a Judge a teacher, and on and on.

    What part of “they are not Jews” is so hard to bear? Does it hurt their feelings? It shouldn’t if they were intellectually honest.

    And lastly, the Nazi litmus test, i.e. that the Nazi’s would not care what they practiced. This is NOT TRUE.

    There is a religious group called the Karaites that live in parts of Eastern Europe down to Istanbul, and now all over America. They are descendants of Jews that rejected rabbinical Judaism.

    The Nazis DID NOT round up the Karaites. They did not consider them Jews. The Rabbis they interview also did not consider them as Jews.

    To the Nazis being Jewish was a biological / pseudo-racial classification. A Jew’s “blood” is what made him dangerous until it was “watered down” by several generations of intermarriage.

    I hope that those that advocate Christianity for Jews do not regard being Jewish as racial profile, but are honest and regard it as a national and religious identity.

    Just as not every country allows dual citizenship— You cannot be both Christian and Jewish.

    • britmilah

      12/1/2011 at 9:22 am

      Rabbi Yonah,

      There are so many holes and inconsistencies in your own words that I am not sure how to start responding to your clearly flawed reasoning? Where exactly did you do Rabbinical Studies. You are doing it a a disservice. I mean really?? I will address your main concern in this post and let the readers be the judge.

      You wrote:

      “Judaism has ALWAYS been about what people believe AND what people practice. Many of those so-called Messianic Jews are really NOT JEWS, not born Jewish.”

      Don’t you see the inconsistencies in your own words. Using absolute terms such as “ALWAYS” wreaks of carelessness and only identifies how unlearned you are.” Firstly, you cannot argue that the Litmus test for Judaism is always about belief and practice and then follow with a sentence with separate sentence which suggests a different litmus test ie “being “born Jewish.”

      Let’s not forget that Abraham was not Jewish, because he was born Hebrew. The unmerited favor given him was due to his faith and not his being born Jewish. Likewise, the Torah makes many allowances for those aren’t “born Jewish” whatever that means. Nothing in your inconsistent Limus tests suggests that Judaism is about, love, faith, community family. You really do Judaism a disservice.

      I can go on and on with this, but I think my point is clear. Judaism is a faith, that is why one can be converted to Judaism even though they are not “born Jewish”, much like the so called “Christians” have done (but may not have realized).

      Please at least be consistent with innuendos.

  25. froylein

    6/19/2009 at 11:42 pm

    Rabbi Yonah, the point is that Messianic Jews do not consider themselvs Christian, and unless you register the terms “Jew”, “Jewish” etc., you cannot forbid someone to call themselves such no matter how you personally feel about it. Most Christians also would be quite suprised at your and Middle’s idea of what constitutes as a Christian. Also, for the sake of proper discourse, I’ve encountered several highly educated non-Jewish people that know more about Judaism than most Jews I know – because of their advanced degrees in Judaistics – , rabbis included. If expertship required being part of a system, there could be nothing like foreign politics, archaeology, gynaecology carried out by men etc. Not every non-Jew interested in Judaism on either a spiritual or an academic level is out there to get Jews.

    I agree with the above commenter, the concept of messianism has evolved in Judaism over time – to the extent it has taken on a more Christian flavour than what it originally used to be like. And it’s not only that commenter and I that believe so, but the link to the article in the Jewish Enyclopaedia – the standard reference in Jewish religious studies at an academic level – also elaborates on how that concept evolved. That encyclopaedia already is about a century old, and there has been more research on that matter going on since.

  26. clarity

    6/20/2009 at 12:18 am

    Rabbi Yonah,

    Thanks for the characterizations of your fellow, though more open-minded, Jews. We are not alone in fact, just search “big tent judaism” or “interfaith family” in google.

    It seems you have intended to broach this topic simply to pontificate. This is not without a sense of irony.

    You have not conceded any point of merit or discovery.

    On the corporeality of Moshiach from Melachim 11:3 and Chabad.

    On the often overlooked fact that Karaite Jews and Karaylar-Karaites are two distinct and separate groups. One of which the Nazis rounded up and the other was exempted but also rounded up by the French Vichy Government.

    With all do respect Rabbi Yonah, to be intellectually honest is to avoid pejorative caricature and exemplify respect, even among those who disagree. The evidence of which would be moderating your original post.

    g’shabbes

  27. LB

    6/20/2009 at 1:52 am

    “And while people like to quote “A Jew even if he sins is a Jew,” is SPECIFICALLY describing a Jew that left Judaism, and then desired to return. Do we accept them. Yes. Of course, emphatically.”

    Are you sure? I thought it was from a responsa about them, but was relevant to all Jews, returning or not.

    In any case, I’m not arguing against the gist of your words here. I was only saying that they could be Jewish, but only technically. This does not mean I am, in any way, defending these groups, who masquerade as representatives of Judaism in order to promote Christianity to unsuspecting Jews.

  28. themiddle

    6/20/2009 at 2:20 am

    I invite you all to look at various dictionaries’ definitions of the nouns “Christian” and “eucharist.”

    I stand by my earlier claims that “Jews for Jesus” AKA “Messianic Jews” by definition are Christians.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christian

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eucharist

  29. froylein

    6/20/2009 at 4:58 am

    Middle, such stuff you don’t look up in a dictionary but in a theological encyclopaedia. And if you must look up something in a common encyclopaedia online, I suggest you try the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

    Analogously, one could claim that believing in Moses made people Jewish.

  30. Javier

    6/20/2009 at 10:51 am

    Rabbi Yonah,

    the Nazis did kill Edith Stein in Auschwitz for being jewish, although she had been baptized into catholicism in 1922, and was a Catholic Carmelite Nun.

  31. Ephraim

    6/21/2009 at 2:39 am

    Judaistics? WTF is that?

    “Belief in Jesus” (whatever that may mean or entail) is certainly a necessary component of being Christian. Also, I presume that once one is baptized, one remains a Christian even if lapsed, like a Catholic who no longer goes to Mass, so long as one hasn’t officially apostasized.

    Still, this is just semantics. Belief that Jesus was/is the Messiah is a Christian belief. Someone born a Jew who professes such a belief, at least in the way Christians understand it (literal son of G-d born of a virgin, resurrected after 3 days, blood cleanses all sin, no salvation except through belief in him, etc.) has, for all intents and purposes, repudiated the Jewish religion and everything it stands for, even if that person hasn’t been officially baptized into the Church.

    A Jew can make such a mistake and still remain, in essence, a Jew, simply because that essence cannot be altered. However, while that person is professing a mistaken belief and worshiping a false god, he/she cannot in any way be considered a member of the Jewish people in any sense, as rabbi Yonah has stated above.

    So Cardinal Lustiger is SOL on that score, regardless of what he thinks or feels. It is not his decision to make.

  32. froylein

    6/21/2009 at 3:43 am

    Judaistics is the academic subject dealing with Judaism just as a university should not the place to study English or German but Anglistics or Germanistics. It’s the step up to cover a widely connected field of history – reflected popular and actual-, scripture exegesis, the development of beliefs, customs etc., their manifestations at various degrees in various locales and so on.
    Anglistics / Germanistics are not only concerned with teaching the language, but more profound linguistics (basic and special fields, for instance neurolinguistics), literature (not selective, but comprehensive from the oldest known texts to current authours), the development of the language, the history / political & legal systems / geography / current issues, style & dialectics etc.

    A Christian is supposed to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but that is a belief also shared by other religious groups as I explained above. The belief in Jesus as the Messiah doesn’t make one Christian and does not entitle anyone to anything in the major churches (major, because there are more than 1,200 Protestant denominations in the US alone; anybody can found a “church” there, but their theologies are not necessarily reflective of common religious belief and sometimes plain off).

    The problem Judaism has is that Orthodoxy has been trying to establish itself as the norma normans while it is comparatively young and if one is willing to look into it, not necessarily reflective of “authentic” Judaism of, let’s say, 2,500 years back but the spiritually-enclined religious world of the “lower class” Jews (as opposed to the more scholarly “upper class” ones as contemporaries of Baal Shem Tov duly noted as cited in Graetz’s “Geschichte der Juden”) in Eastern Europe not too long ago.

    A Christian that has once been baptized cannot make the baptism undone; sacraments can generally not be made undone, that’s why Catholics may not divorce but Protestants may. A Jew born to a Jewish mother (father in less religious circles and apparently in pre-rabbinical times) or entered into the convenant through conversion cannot be un-Jewed. (Don’t admit them to community / social functions if you feel you must though this would clash with the idea of how the Shabbat commandments were perceived for centuries.) Otherwise each and any Jew would have to stand trial to have their beliefs challenged, and my guess is that the judge would rather look like David Kelsey.

  33. Ephraim

    6/21/2009 at 5:16 am

    froylein, I will need a lot more than your word to accept the statement that Muslims believe Jesus is a “prophet-cum-messiah”. Muslims have, indeed, co-opted all of the prophets of the Jews and Christians simply by claiming that they were actually Muslims; this is possible because Islam believes that it is the final version of the one true religion that the Jews and the Christians screwed up by misrepresenting what the prophets said; therefore they can hijack Moses and David, and Solomon, and Jesus etc., simply by making the claim that Mohammed has perfected what they originally preached. I would imagine that one good way to get yourself lynched would be to go into a mosque and start lecturing the Muslims there that Jesus was the Mahdi.

    The Muslims most certainly do not believe, any more than the Jews do, that Jesus was the Messiah in the Christian sense: a half man/half deity who is the begotten son of G-d on a human woman, and who was sent to earth specifically in order to be sacrificed on the cross so as to make salvation possible to those worshipers who eat his body and drink his blood in a sacrificial meal in the belief that this will save them from the punishment due to original sin.

    Only Christians “believe” in Jesus in that sense, and when someone says he “believes in Jesus” he means he believes in Jesus as the Messiah and the son of G-d who saves that person from sin through his sacrificial death.

    With all of your vaunted expertise in “Christianistics” “Judaistics” and, I assume, “Islamastics”, I’m sure you know that.

  34. froylein

    6/21/2009 at 6:00 am

    Ephraim, Islam adopted 26 out of 28 Jewish / Christian prophets. As for the rest, some proper reading will help you out. You might want to start with the Quran and a commentary. I’ve never had any problem or received as much as mockery with a devout Muslim when engaging in a conversation on this topic.

    BTW, the academic subjects are called “Islamic studies” resp. “Islamology” and “theology” resp. “religious studies”.

  35. Ephraim

    6/21/2009 at 12:53 pm

    Please show me the source in the Koarn or in the Sunna, or in any authoritative Islamic source, that teaches that Jesus is the Messiah as the Christians understand him to be. This would be absolutely impossible, as I am sure you know, since the Muslims specifically mock the Christian idea that G-d could have a son.

    I am quite aware that Islam “adopted” most of the Jewish and Christian prophets. They did this by simply claiming that they were proto-Muslims, thereby giving Islam and Mohammed a bogus lineage back to Avraham Avinu. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, simple theft. Anyway, what of it? Of what theological significance is this?

    If I mock, it is because you seem to be trying to make the case that “believing” in Jesus is not solely a Christian idea. This smacks of sophistry, since I am sure a person of your erudition must know that believing in Jesus as Christians understand it is completely different than a Muslim claiming that Jesus was a Muslim prophet who simply preceded Mohammed.

    Also, I’m sure Muslims love it when they can find infidels who buy into the lie that Islam respects Judaism and Christianity (“See? We share the same prophets!”) when of course it does nothing of the sort.

    So, answer me these questions, please:

    Do orthodox Muslims believe:

    1)That Jesus was at once god and man combined in one being?
    2) That he is the begotten son of G-d?
    3) That he was born of a virgin who was impregnated by the holy spirit?
    4) That the world was created through him?
    4) That he is a pre-existing part of the godhead?
    5) That he was put on earth specifically in order to be sacrificed on the cross so that man could achieve salvation by “believing” in him?
    6) That this salvation is achieved through eating his body and drinking his blood (literally for some, symbolically for others)?
    7) That he was crucified, buried, and was resurrected on the 3rd day whence he rose directly to heaven?
    8) That he will return in a second coming?
    9) That he will sit in final judgment on all of mankind?

    Anyway, you get the point.

    On general principle, I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing to try to find common ground between different religions. I just think it’s better to be honest about it. Like I have said before, you remind me of a Catholic woman I knew who thought that Mass and the Seder were the same because both involved drinking wine and eating crackers.

    Forest, trees, etc.

  36. froylein

    6/21/2009 at 1:17 pm

    Why don’t you dig your nose into the Quran yourself? BTW, the divinity of Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth) was highly debated among Christians as well (too busy now to look up the various councils where this was debated).

    The idea of Jesus as the Messiah is not tied to the Christian belief of Jesus being the son of God, thus it has found reception among non-Christians, too. You’re addressing two different issues.

    I have never claimed that Orthodox (I’d rather use devout as there’s not really a system of Muslim Orthodoxy) Muslims believed in those points, but if you must know, Islam believes in virgin birth through Mary / Maryam (sure 3:45-47) and that he was sent from God, created by God and not conceived by man (3:59), that he worked miracles (3:49), that he was elevated into Heaven by God (4:157), and that there’ll be resurrection & “Judgement Day” (2:82). Too busy to look up the other passages now, but you get the idea.

    It’s all good and nice to try to reduce theologies to a very simple level when dealing with three-year-olds, but that doesn’t do the highly refined nature of the varying and partly overlapping theologies justice.

  37. Ephraim

    6/21/2009 at 1:53 pm

    Sigh.

    Yes, I know that whether or not Jesus was divine or not was debated among the early Christians. So what? That debate has long been settled. Christianity, as we know it, is founded upon the belief that he was divine and the begotten son of G-d. Harking back to days when this was not so is pointless.

    Again, you are missing the point. I know that Muslims believe in judgment day. Pretty much everything they got was plagiarized wholesale from Judaism and Christianity, so of course they are going to share similarities. The question is: is Jesus going to be running the show?

    Your problem is that you pride yourself on your sophistication far too much, and since you are not a belever yourself you have no idea of what is really going on. You study religion as an entymologist studies dead bugs. Some things are very, very simple.

    Believing certain things about Jesus is not the same thing as believing in Jesus. For Christians, Jesus has a central theological role: that of the savior who saves his worshipers from punishment for sin. That is what he is there for. There is no way that Muslims believe that. And believing it makes one a Christian, so long as one is also baptized in that belief.

    Of course I am aware that the theologies of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam overlap. As I said, Christians and Muslims go most of their beliefs and practices from the Jews, so some overlap is only to be expected when copying of this sort goes on.

    That does not make the theologies the same as you imply.

  38. froylein

    6/21/2009 at 2:32 pm

    I’ve never claimed or implied that makes them the same, but that much is shared, and that Judaism, too, has adopted ideas as can easily be traced and that Orthodox Judaism de facto is not a norma normans for Judaism as it used to be and not of Jewish religious expression as it is (given the numbers provided in the CIA’s World Factbook, about 5 million people in the US are Jewish; according to a JCPA article, 25% of Jews in Israel are Orthodox and a merely whoppin’ 11% in the US).

    Mentioning that there were debates about the role of Jesus is not pointless as Christianity was painted as a monolithic religion above, which it pretty obviously is not.

    As for pride, I don’t take pride in the ability to read. I think that ability could be expected from somebody my age.

    You remind me of my colleague that claimed the new varities in potatoes are evidence for them being genetically engineered as he definitely knew about potatoes as he loved eating them. I told him those varieties aren’t new, have been known for quite some time in America, but have only come in fashion over the past few years in Europe and that in order to prevent another famine due some vermin, seed potatoes sold to farmers get changed at regular intervals. He claimed I couldn’t know such a thing as he loved eating potatoes.

  39. Javier

    6/21/2009 at 5:08 pm

    I’m not a specialist on the subject, but I thought a Jew was a descendant by the blood of the Patriarch Jacob, through the Abrahamic Covenant. And that he was, by definition, unable to destroy that link, even if he tried (by believing in Jesus, for instance).

  40. Jorge

    6/22/2009 at 8:30 am

    I think that the main point here should be if a Jew who believe in Jesus(a Jew fully observant of Torah) is still a Jew while a jew who believe in a pagan Indian deity or new age is considerate a jew in spite of their crazy pagans ideas.

    This cannot be like a sport discussion, some people here try to underestimate Jesus just because they ‘feel’ this is the right way don’t knowing the teaching of Jesus are based in Jewishness. This people have just heard a little of the Christian side of their teaching which are away from the Jewish think of the early rabies.

  41. clarity

    6/30/2009 at 8:00 pm

    Well, I hope you got what you wanted Rabbi Yonah. Sheesh, I hope this sort of attitude doesn’t head over to JConnect LA now that you are taking over for Michal.

    I hope respect gets a promotion.

    l’hit

  42. clarity

    7/1/2009 at 1:22 pm

    If you don’t know what JConnectLA is, you can read a little history here and visit their website JconnectLA.com.

    Most notably, the founder Michal describes it:

    “It was the vision of Jewish Unity – a plan to create a Jewish experience in LA that would bring together Jews from any cultural or religious background in a space that was warm, fun and hip.”

    Hopefully it will remain this way.

    froylein, love the potatoes story by the way!

  43. ck

    7/11/2009 at 5:56 pm

    What the fuck?? Messianic “Judaism” is NOT Judaism. Plain and simple. Individuals within the Messianic movement may be Jews but the movement itself, by deceptively using the term “Judaism” is an affront to Jews and a con that takes advantage of and targets the disturbed, the elderly, the feeble minded and the ignorant. Even Birthright Israel, that uses the most Liberal definition of “who is a Jew” will instantaneously kick anyone off a trip who admits belief in Jesus as the son of God. A movement that claims to be Jewish and worships a MAN in whose name untold numbers of Jews met their deaths in the most horrific ways imaginable can simply go fuck itself. I look forward to running into you fucking idiots in Jerusalem so that I may test out first hand that “turn the other cheek” shit your false God was always preaching. I hope I was sufficiently emphatic. We don’t need or want your Jesus, and while I don’t begrudge your right to worship as you please, I will point out the innate bullshit of your fake little religion any chance I have, especially in so far as you continue to deceive and lie.

  44. froylein

    7/11/2009 at 11:11 pm

    You cannot prove or disprove the content of belief.

  45. Ephraim

    7/11/2009 at 11:42 pm

    Maybe. But you can prove it is not Judaism.

    Just because Jews do it doesn’t make it Judaism.

    And it doesn’t matter if they think it does, either.

  46. ck

    7/11/2009 at 11:57 pm

    Yes froylein. What Ephraim said. My only issue with these fucktards is their attempt to pass off their religious beliefs as Judaism. That’s it. I have nothing against Christians and I have no issue with people who believe in Jesus.

  47. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 12:24 am

    Have you also got an issue with Chabad?

  48. ck

    7/12/2009 at 4:26 am

    Like TM said, that’s a red herring. I have issues with Hassidic Judaism, and frankly, any Judaism that isn’t Sephardic Moroccan, from my Father’s village specifically. But the issues I have do not prevent me from davening in any Chabad or Hassidic minyan. The meshichtim of Chabad are kinda nutty but they have yet to deify Rabbi Schneerson z”l. Also, for sentimental reasons, I can’t help but note that no one ever killed, tortured or raped Jews in the name of Rabbi Schneerson. Messianic “Judaism” is a deceptive movement that brings disrepute to Christianity and constitutes a grave insult to Judaism. So yeah, fuck ’em.

  49. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 4:30 am

    It’s not a red herring, it’s the same difference theologically. That might be a hot potato, but still not red. 🙂

    As far as dialectics goes though, bringing up past atrocities of long-since deceased Christians to hold them against Messianic Jews is called polemics, cheap ones at that, and also qualifies as a flawed take on Jewish jurisdiction which, as a novelty back then, did away with kin liability.

    I could start making a list of what kind of things have been committed in the name of kiruv – killing a person physically is just one way of killing them – but that is not what Shneerson had intended and the killings of Jews is not what Jesus had intended.

  50. ck

    7/12/2009 at 5:37 am

    Froylein, no offense, but theology means shit to me. Jews for Jesus are an affront. And they are liars. Say whatever you like, justify them any way you want, but I will never cease to attack them any chance I have. I slashed their tires at York U. (when I was young and hot headed), I confronted them in New Orleans, LA, New York, Montreal and at motherfucking Bumbamella here in Israel. I will heap scorn and abuse on them and I will be right in doing so. They are lying slime and deserve all they get for targeting the ignorant, the confused and the feeble minded.

    I love Kelsey and I will personally circumcise his male children so don’t even go there 🙂

  51. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 5:54 am

    I’m not justifying them any further than saying they’ve got every right to believe what they feel like believing. It’s called freedom of creed. Do you really need this cheap mockery to affirm yourself of your beliefs?

    Muffti’s coming here on Thursday. We’ll issue a joint statement.

  52. ck

    7/12/2009 at 6:06 am

    OK, so certain Rabbis have every right to believe that certain other Rabbis did not sexually abuse anyone, right? And certain hucksters have every right to promote get rich quick schemes that don’t work, right? And certain cults have every right to give their followers purple Koolaid, right? Well, yeah sorta I suppose. I don’t begrudge these Messianic ass clowns the right to believe whatever they want to believe. But I will take every opportunity I have to expose their lies and confront them vociferously. That’s my right too innit? So once again, allow me to declare that Jews for Jesus and all Christian Messianic movements that pretend to be Jewish are deceptive movements that bring disrepute to Christianity and constitute a grave insult and threat to Judaism. Fuck them and the donkey they rode in on.

  53. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 6:18 am

    Not quite, I was talking about contents of belief, which cannot be proved. Cults put beliefs on a level with knowledge, religions don’t. If somebody chooses not to believe what can clearly be tracked using average human cognitive skills, that’s called neglect or delusion – for whatever reason.
    Those documents normative for Judaism are also received by Messianic Jews; they don’t believe Jesus to be divine but to be the messiah, which puts them on the same theological level as Chabad. You claim not to care about theologies, but you try to make your case based on a particularl theology or your reception thereof. If part of your belief entails that the messiah is not known / not Jesus / not Shneerson, you’ve got every right to say so, but to discredit others’ beliefs based on your assumptions about their theology is just pointless – it might only cause you high blood pressure for all it’s worth.

  54. ck

    7/12/2009 at 7:06 am

    Again, I am not trying to defend the meshichtim. Son of God or no Son of God, Jesus is nothing to the Jews. Less than nothing. You may as well found a new religion based on the notion that I am the new messiah. Or you are. We do not believe in his divinity. We do not believe in his status as a prophet like the Muslims do. We do not believe that God’s covenant with the Jews has been superseded by a new covenant. We do not believe in original sin and we sure as shit do not believe in turning the other cheek. Claiming that Messianic Christians are on par with Chabad ignores the fact that not all Chabadniks are meshichtim (which you know as well as I do) and that even amongst the most hard core meshichtim, none believes in a new covenant or any of that other crap the Messianic impostors are trying to sell. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig, so to speak.

  55. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 7:27 am

    And Chabad is still the biggest knock-off of Christian messianism around. Those that allegedly don’t believe in Shneerson as the messiah don’t distance themselves from the movement, which is rather telling.

    Most Christians also don’t believe that the old convenant was superseded.

  56. ck

    7/12/2009 at 8:30 am

    The New Testament replaces the so called Old Testament. The VAST majority of Christians believe this. This is why they eat shrimp and worship on Sunday. Get a clue froylein. Seriously. The meshichtim are a minority and even then, they are hardly Christian-knock offs! That’s pure narishkeit dear.

  57. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 10:46 am

    Get a clue, CK. Seriously. I’ve studied this stuff and not just drawn my own conclusions. The majority of Christians (1.4 billion) is Roman Catholic; those believe that the “convenant” of Jesus was a continuation of the old convenant; so does mainstream Protestantism.

    Most Christians eat treif in reference to an argument made in the Acts stating that men shouldn’t declare impure what god had sanctified himself through creating it. Most of them celebrate Sundays in commemoration of the story of resurrection.

    It’s not pure narischkeit to me nor to a large bulk of serious religious scholars that this particular matter in Christianity has greatly shaped the views on that matter in Orthodox Judaism. I’ve explained it all above. Again, that’s not just me believing so, but a large number of highly religiously educated people that set out working on real documents to find out how beliefs in Judaism have developed.

  58. Jorge

    7/12/2009 at 11:13 am

    All this issues is about Yeshua, you have to know that He’s like Joseph who rules over the Gentiles while providing for the welfare of his owm family who don’t recognize him.

    I don’t expect the recognition of the men, remember this: “The Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada (Agudath Harabonim) hereby declares: Reform and Conservative are not Judaism at all. Their adherents are Jews, according to the Jewish Law, but their religion is not Judaism.”

    I am just a Jew that believe in Yeshua and still is living according Mosses who wrote about Yeshua. If you believe in Mosses you will believe in Yeshua.

  59. LB

    7/12/2009 at 11:17 am

    Believe in Moses? Jews don’t believe in Moses – they believe he was an important figure in our history – not a G-d, not divine, but a leader.

    Nor does Judaism allow for the corporeality of G-d – therefore, the belief in a divine corporeal being is, by definition, not Judaism (regardless of whether or not individual followers are Jews).

  60. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 11:19 am

    LB, either you believe in Moses (as in that he existed as described) or you know he existed. Take your pick.

  61. ck

    7/12/2009 at 12:30 pm

    You’re a little presumptuous there Froylein. You want to talk about Antinomianism, the Council of Jerusalem, Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews or Hebrews 8:6-7: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” Belief in Jesus and the “New” testament are antithetical to Judaism. Any movement that claims to unite the two is dishonest. The Catholic/Mainstream Protestant notion of the “New” Testament as a “continuation” of the “Old” Testament does not allow for a world where Judaism and belief in Jesus can coexist. Messianic Christians are just trying to repackage Christianity and sell it as Judaism in order to get Jews to believe in Jesus. That having been said, your sweeping declarations belie the complexity of the issue. But that’s a Christian issue – not mine and really, I don’t give a rat’s ass about Christian theology. I wish The Middle would weigh in. He might be able to provide some further insight…

  62. Jorge

    7/12/2009 at 1:08 pm

    What is doing our friend CK is like (another parallelism) diminishing Joseph just because he is ‘Pharaon’ of Egypt a nation of gentiles (like Christians) but what really Joshep is a Hebrew but you don’t see him like that because he is ruling this nation. Don’t be confused about what this gentiles had said about this Pharaon. Don’t see His custom but see what He say teachings full of wisdom(Torah). He is more extremist than others rabbis in some points (like divorce, to hate is to kill) and softer in others. He was a Pharisee indeed and he loved the Pharisees.

    The gospel and the letters are the most representative text of the Jews in that era, in culture and traditions. Don’t be afraid of what you would find there like a jew.

    About hebrew 8:6-7, Paul is speaking about the priesthood but not the law of G-d, read this like a Jew and not like the Gentiles showed you: “we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven” Hebrew 8:1 and before that in Hebrew 7:11 Paul is comparing the Order of Melchizedek with the priesthood of the Messiah, this Order was first than the Order of Aaron.

  63. Rabbi Yonah

    7/12/2009 at 1:18 pm

    Dear Clarity –
    I am not taking over for Michal at Jconnect – that is being done by Eric Rosen, a talented and wonderful guy.

    I am not sure what sort of attitude you don’t like. If it is for Jewish Unity that excludes Jews that believe in Jesus as Messiah – I am not budging.

    I assure you that Messianic Jews are their own thing – and not part of Klal Yisrael. Born Jewish? yes. Can they return? Yes.
    Do we include them now? No.

    There is some kind of objective truth- it hurts sometimes.

  64. Ephraim

    7/12/2009 at 1:44 pm

    What do you mean by this, froylein: “they don’t believe Jesus to be divine but to be the messiah”.

    Define what you mean by “messiah” here. The messiah of what? What did he do? What is the messiah’s job?

    The Christians had to make him divine and part of G-d (l’havdil) and give him an entirely new role, that is, they had to completely redefine what Jews expected the messiah to be, precisely because he did no accomplish a single thing that a Jewish messiah was supposed to accomplish.

    So when you say “they believe he’s the messiah”: you have to define what they believe the messiah to be. Your snarky comment to LB exposes your complete sophistry in this whole argument. You know very well what Christians mean when they say they “believe in” Jesus. They don’t just believe in the simple fact that he existed, which is theologically meaningless (I believe, for instance, that the Eiffel Tower exists; I’ve seen photos of it and my sons have seen it and they say it is definitely there, right in the middle of Paris); they believe in certain facts about him and in the power these facts have. And you know very well what these facts are. That is also why Muslims don’t “believe in” Jesus, even as they claim he was a Muslim prophet.

    Jews believe that the messiah will rescue the Jews from gentile oppression, re-establish Jewish independence in Israel, usher in the geulah, and bring in an era of universal peace and brotherhood where all nations will recognize that G-d is G-d.

    Is that what these “Messianic” Jews believe? Or do they “believe in” him in the Christian sense?

    Christianity was the original replacement theology. The Church has recently disavowed that, and that’s very nice indeed, but this is a very recent development. There are still plenty of Christians who believe that the “New Covenant” has replaced the “Old Covenant”.

    Christianity is based on the idea that the new covenant fulfills the old one and that therefore it is now possible to disregard pretty much everything that the Torah says. They can do this precisely because they believe Jesus had the power to abrogate the mitzvot precisely because he was divine.

  65. froylein

    7/12/2009 at 2:01 pm

    Alright, I’m too tired to address this in detail, but again, CK, you bring up matters of a fargonne past that have since undergone a long development of theological readings and perceptions. Christianity has changed and so has Judaism. Most Christians as per the theologies of the denominations they adhere to don’t believe the “new convenant” makes the old one void. Those that still keep to that notion are a tiny group (oooops, Evangelicals again, but those are “good for Israel”) among the world’s Christian population.

    Ephraim, your explanation on the idea of a Jewish messiah person clearly echoes diaspora theology. I’ve explained this before. If you still haven’t read the article in the Jewish Encyclopaedia, there’s no basis to take and answer any questions from.

  66. Jorge

    7/12/2009 at 2:21 pm

    Some Christians believe in a ‘Church’ but there isn’t such thing in the letters but ‘eklesia’ or ‘Congregation’, the Kehila of Israel. So this christians thought that this eklesia was ‘made up’ to replace to Israel, they conclude that the ‘New covenant’ of the christians would replace the old covenant of the Jews.

    Read this with a full Jewish thoughts: “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts” Paul quoting Isaiah 54 in Hebrew 8:10. And the christians said this chapter teach about the abrogation of the ‘old covenant’! and moreover Jesus said that he didn’t come to abrogate the mizvot but to fulfill them like any Jew have to do starting with his talmidim.

    All this theology was develop three hundred years after Paul wrote his letters.

  67. DK

    7/15/2009 at 12:19 am

    I would take the complaints against Messianic Jews more seriously by traditionalists if they took a stand against the Messianic wing of Chabad.

    Additionally, the fact is, large swaths of Big Kiruv are deceptive in both tactics and revisionism. Some blatantly lie, and knowingly lie. They even justify this as “pakuach nefesh” — saving a soul. You know, “making them frum.”

    A major problem with the Messianics is that they are simply too frum. They are fundies with a New Religion bent. While I wouldn’t call that Judaism, I am quite frankly bothered that only a small segment of Liberal Jews are willing to take a stand against the Messianic wing of Chabad in a serious way,

    So. Let’s exclude the Messianics, but let’s also exclude all of the haredim who worship Gedolim like the Avodah Zorahniks they are.

    Between right-wing Orthodox Judaism, Jews for Jesus, and Unitarianism, I would choose the last religious group for my descendants, as it is far closer to the paradigm of my ancestors.

  68. DK

    7/15/2009 at 12:23 am

    Anyone who claims the world is less than 6,000 years old is denying the imprint of God because he worships men (Gedolim). These people are not Monotheists. At least the Christians only worship one man. They are kind of like Breslov,

  69. ck

    7/15/2009 at 1:20 am

    Ha ha ha. Kelsey, you’re so cute. When you come here we can taunt the Breslovers at their Yeshiva down the street from my house. Man you are such a hard core Litvak! The Vilna Gaon would have been proud! Had you gone to a nice “Misnaged” Yeshiva like Mir, how different things would have been today. Then you could have davened nussach Ashkenaz, then sat around with your buddies making fun of Hassidim, their poor level of scholarship and the quasi-deification of their Rabeim. At least then we wouldn’t have to hear about Unitarianism and your love of smegma. I like you because you’re like the poster boy for why everyone should be Sephardic. Moroccan Sephardic in fact, although we will give Broygez a pass because she’s adorable and puts up with you.

  70. Emerald Falcon

    7/20/2009 at 6:53 pm

    How is it possible for MAN to decide who is or isn’t in the spiritual family of Israel?

    Can man presume to take gods place on this?

    Is it right for man to decide how or when the messiah was/is to come, and what form? The messiah is a jewish belief.

    And christians might as well be a sect of judaism… they believe that the messiah…. again a jewish belief… has come already. Who’s to say he did or didnt … god… or man?

    God decides who is a daughter or son of Abraham NOT man! God desides who is “jewish”. Didn’t he allow people leaving Egypt during the exodus to be “in the family” How many wifes in that encampment may have been egyptian?

    I am not advocating either side, but MAN deciding what god is to do is a sin.

  71. Jeffrey

    8/5/2009 at 12:18 pm

    Rabbi Yonah,
    Brother Keep the faith. Many are saying that Chritians,Jews and Muslims serve the same God and that there are many paths. We know there is only one path and one truth which is Christ. God Bless you… Help me out I’m looking for a Priest from the Order of Melchizedek and his name is Eliyahu Yehoshua Cohen Gadol Ben Melchizedek or Priest Elijah Joshua. Do you know where I can find him?

  72. Ephraim

    8/5/2009 at 1:58 pm

    He lives in the Emerald City with the munchkins, Jeffrey.

    At least that’s what the Magic Unicorn told me, anyway.

  73. Yuri

    8/13/2009 at 4:19 pm

    That was told me whole f***ing life that you’re a jew if you have come from a jewish belli (ie:Mother, grandmother, grandgrand mother)
    if the born jew belives in jesus, he still being a jew, but with a wrong conception IMO.
    if he born elsewhere but he pratices judaism, and/or belives in jesus, he is not a jew, simply as that.

    about chabad…well you can think what you want but inside Chabad(at leas here in Brazil) we are preparing world to the Messiach, wich means…Menachem Mendel is not him, actually i’ve never knew any chabad jew here that says Menachem is the Messiach, really.

    btw i like Chabad , because they came from the biggest city of my country to almost nowere to teach me.

    So between comparing Chabad with Messianic…there is a giant gap gents.

    those were my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

  74. Yuri

    8/13/2009 at 4:23 pm

    btw, sorry if it took a racist conception, but that’s law and nothnig less than it.

    correction:from jewish belly

  75. Lorie

    1/14/2010 at 5:00 pm

    Uh, just want to say to an earlier poster…yes, you can be Jewish and be blue or green-eyed. Some of us are called Ashkenazic Jews, and our families were concentration camp survivors! When you dance to “Hava Nagila”, you’re playing an Ashkenazic song. Look it up! We have to get special medical testing b4 having children with one another, and can suffer great illnesses because of our lineage. God knows what they did to our ancestors during the Holocaust that may have caused or worsened theses problems. Wanna go back and tell them they shouldn’t have died because they might have been mixed, and your little self might not have thought the seemed Jewish enough? Well, aren’t you the authority! First Nazi police, now Jewish police? That’s stupid, and insulting! Talk about becoming what you comtempt! If somebody says u don’t look or act Jewish, makes me want to smack them in the face! That’s like telling a bi-racial, fair-skinned, light-eyed African American they’re not African American. Bet they’d tell you just how often they’ve been reminded that they are! Plus,I could be practicing any wing-ding religion, still doesn’t change my bloodline or family history. If I go to Temple or visit a Church, bleach my hair, or leave it darker, I’m still what God made me when I was born. That’s between God and myself.

  76. froylein

    1/14/2010 at 5:25 pm

    Lorie, I’m not quite sure what has triggered your comment, particularly this long after the original post went up, but I think you’re missing the point. Jews come in all shapes, sizes and appearances as there have always been people that became or were considered Jewish at some point. There is no racial purity as some like to claim. Sometimes people point out the actual and undeniable irony about any claims of racial purity.

  77. cincilitigator

    2/7/2010 at 11:13 pm

    I am Jewish, my mother is Jewish and I was consecrated Bar Mitzvahed and confirmed at the nation’s first reformed congregation. I have been involved at a messianic synagogue for 20 years. Unlike many of my messianic brethern, I acnknowledge I am a Christian theologically. At the same time, I do not care to deny my ethnicity and remain a Jew to my core so I appreciate those of you who recognize this – it is heartwarming. I do not mind being called a heretic by some of you because that is an honest theological disagreement. I do mind, of course, when you attack the core of my being which is immutable and passionate for my G-d given heritage. I and many of my messianic brethern will go to the mat for the Jewish community and Israel when called upon to do so before gentile Christians – I did so in the face of propaganda being spewed by a presbyterian pastor at a Kiwanis club meeting in southeastern Kentucky and I know it was one of the most annointed things I ever did next to my Bar Mitzvah. My daughter was Bat Mitzvahed and my son is studying for his service. I know we are not perfect and the Yeshua disagreement is not to be minimized, it is crucial (study the eitiology of that word). Nonetheless,I am blessed by some very sweet posters on this blog. As for the other side, I understand and have come to expect it. Love in messiah, DM

  78. LB Chasid (in La)

    2/8/2010 at 1:22 am

    Has Jewlicious really run out of material that the only articles commented on are 1 year 3 year 5 years old?

    Jews for Jesus. Kaballah Center. We have come a loooooong way. For 2,000 years the Goyim persecuted us, raped us, murdered us, and exiled us from their lands.

    Now in 2010 the Goyim want to be like us so bad, want to learn our esoteric teachings without all the baggage. Actually following the Torah properly is extremely difficult and takes day in day out for years. Why would they want to make such a commitment.

    I doubt there is a single Jew for Jesus member that is versed in all of Tanach, Midrashim, and Gemara, Halacha, Achronim, Rishonism, Etc because if they were they would realize that Jesus is sitting in Gehenom right now being boiled alive in his out feces day in and day out since he died on that stupid cross.

    Froy is a work of art and its so interesting how she comes to her conclusions and tries to Parallel Chabad with Christianity. Then again she compares Chassidus at large to Christianity so it is interesting she uses a Chasid as a source.

    • froylein

      2/8/2010 at 5:24 pm

      It’s “froylein” to you. And I’ve learnt my stuff; there’s more to theology than wishful thinking. It’s interesting to see how many educated Chasidim feel about Chabad.

  79. ck

    2/8/2010 at 3:53 am

    LA Chasid: Jesus is in Gehenom?? What did he ever do? The notion of his being “boiled alive in his out feces day in and day out since he died on that stupid cross” is more of a Christian concept than a Jewish one. The issue we have with Christianity is more with some of Jesus’ apostles and many of his followers than it is with the man himself. I dare say if Jesus were alive today and reviewed what had been done in his name over the last 2000 years he’d kvell! And I’m no fan of Jesus – don’t ask what ck stands for.

    And yeah. I have no idea how we’re getting all these comments from ancient posts. I guess we have Mr. Google to thank for that.

  80. LB Chasid (in La)

    2/8/2010 at 11:03 am

    There are a few stories in the gemara about Yashka and what his punishment is. People think he was just some Rabbi looking to reform the corruption of the Seduces. The Gemara is chalk full of stories and there is even a section in RAMBAMs Mishneh Torah that has a source of criticism for the teacher of Yashkah who pushed him away from Yiddishkite.

    Im sure he wouldnt be happy that a new religion was created in his name that would murder millions of innocent Jews not to mention that Catholism which is a huge sect of Christianity is total avoda zaharah.

    There are certain people that arent forgiven because their sin causes a chain reaction that causes the masses to sin for generations. Ill tell you the story I heard about King Menasseh when I see you today 😀

  81. LB Chasid (in La)

    2/8/2010 at 5:44 pm

    I have spoken to many educated Chassidim and the only people that have issue with Chabad for the most part are Anti Religious, Mod Ortho, and Baal Teshuvas.

    Even the Satmar Rebbe Shlit’a spends 3 weeks in california and davens at a chabad shul daily and Satmar at one point was one of the biggest opponents of Chabad.

    I know you dont consider me educated in any respect but I have traveled the world interacting with many different Chassidic Rebbes and Chassidim and none of them take issue with Chabad to the degree that the ones listed above do.

    Skver even has a relationship with Chabad that Moshiach is coming from either of their sects so they tend to marry their sons and daughters.

    Your mind is made up and I have no need to convince you but in my experience your views are inaccurate in regards to Chassidus and Chassidim.

    Froy.

  82. froylein

    2/8/2010 at 7:33 pm

    Curiously enough, the Chasidishe rabbis I know and am friends feel different about Chabad, and reality keeps proving them right.

    And your insistence on calling me a name that I don’t wish to be called speaks volumes about you.

  83. LB Chasid (in La)

    2/8/2010 at 10:20 pm

    oh volumes just volumes.

    Curiously enough a Chasidishe Rabbi doesnt represent an entire sect of Chassidus. Lets take Ger for example. Arguably the largest Chassidic sect in the world with hundreds of thousands of chassidim. They have a very strong relationship with Chabad. Same with Skver, and Klausenburg, Nikolsburg, Aleksander to name a few.

    Although I disagree with Chabads opinion on their Rebbe being Moshiach there is nothing halachically wrong with it. It just isnt menchlich. Chabad does more to spread Torah then a lot of other groups and even HaRav Weinberg ZT”L of AISH received a bracha from the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L to do kiruv work.

    While you try to reveal darkness in the world they try to reveal light.

    Goodluck with those volumes.

  84. froylein

    2/9/2010 at 1:12 am

    Again, your evaluation of what I do, namely holding up wishful thinking-theology to actual theology, speaks volumes about you. Maybe you should ponder why the Middle Ages were called the Dark Ages by later generations to see who is revealing the light.

    As for other Chasidishe views on Chabad, two words say it all: bad yichus.

  85. Ephraim

    2/9/2010 at 1:21 am

    “the corruption of the Seduces?”

    That sounds awesome.

    Does Muffti know about this?

  86. Iggy Ignorant

    2/9/2010 at 6:43 am

    How can you be Jewish and believe in Jesus, after all wasn’t his mother Mary a Roman Catholic? Wouldn’t that make him a Roman Catholic too?

  87. Israeli War Criminal

    7/31/2010 at 3:27 pm

    Rabbi Yonah,

    My your heart live forever, I understand you are not committing L’shon Ha’ra לשון הרע
    I would however say that I know many Chassidim who believe Yeshua is Mohshiach, and I consider them just as Jewish as I am. I know Jews (term used loosely) from for the former Soviet Union who don’t even believe in H’Shem. To me, they are as the goy but none the less are Hebrews. I love all Jews including those who believe in Yeshua.

    Many of the Chassidim believe Yeshua is coming again and even some thought Gadol Rebbe Mordecai David Kahane is Moshiach. I love them as well. Even Yeshua, a Jew who kept Torah I love him too. Correct me Rabbi, but I understand a Jew as one who is a Jew inside his or her heart and keeps the faith (trust) in G-d as Aveinu Av’raham. Even in war, when I have done things which are considered “shiga” and war is full of שָׁגָה. Yet H’Shem watched over me his Meshugener Chaiya.

    Non Jews can’t understand the things we know and I understand your love for our people guides you. I hope you remain faithful as I know you will, and keep the love that I know you have for Am Yisrael.

    Shalom Rabbi,

    Yonatan

  88. Israeli War Criminal

    7/31/2010 at 4:06 pm

    Oy froylein:

    I can assure you that instead of being “spoon fed” someones version of Qur’an you read the original writing in the classical Arabic which you obviously have not done.

    In the Shia and Sunni beliefs the Mahdi مهدي, is their redeemer and no place in Qur’an is it written Jesus is Messiah. Actually, Jesus to them is “the healer” and a lesser prophet. In the Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah,مسجد قبة الصخرة, Allahumma salli ala rasulika wa’abdika ‘Isa bin Maryam – “In the name of the One God (Allah) Pray for your Prophet and Servant Jesus son of Mary”,من جانب اسم إله واحد (الله) باداء الصلاة لما بذلتموه النبي, خادم السيد المسيح ابن مريم, which is not very flattering when you read it. It’s basically saying that Jesus is the servent of the Prophet and the son of Mary while indicating Jesus was born without a legitimate father. This was inscribed inside the dome at a time when Muslims were trying to convert Christians in the city by force.

    This contradicts Sura 3:45-47 which was written down around c.650 CE, the word Qur’an literally means “recitation”. Who knows what was added or taken away, only Muslim’s would know this. Maybe, the same who engraved the words about Jesus hadn’t read the Sura or maybe they did, who knows. The point is, Yeshua a Jewish Rabbi of blessed memory should be respected.

    With that said, Muslim’s want to kill Jews, Christians and anyone else in their field of vision. This I know, it’s not about anything other than “hadith” (sayings) in the various Sura (chapters). Yes, they adopted Jewish Prophets and yet are commanded to “kill” the people of the Book who are descendants of the prophets. There is a vast difference between real Islam (eastern) and the watered down version of the (west).

    If Muslims who are Jihadist, don’t fulfill the “hadith’s” then their religion is a lie, and they can’t let that happen now can they?

    Never underestimate their desire to adhere to Qur’an.

    I mean you know disrespect at all, but when we come together as a people, hatred and anger always muddies the debate to a point of verbal warfare. I see your points that you are making, but please understand the Rabbi is a Rabbi, he should be respected, even if I don’t agree with a Rabbi, I still love him or her and bless them. It’s just a Jewish way and I like it.

    In the beginning, (Rabbi correct me if I’m wrong) but H’Shem is all about “free will”. He is the ultimate Judge and will in the end sort all things out. I trust fully in the G-d of Israel to accomplish this. If people would learn to trust in G-d they way they do the brakes on their cars, we would all be a lot better off. Messianic Jews, I love you too. I love all Jews. I am an old Jew who is tired, my soul is tired yet, I have the strength and gift of love.

    Muslim’s, I love you as well. I have rescued your children even though you shot me for it, I love you. A Muslim killed my son, he was five years old in 1984 and yet, I love my enemies children. Stop Kvetching so much.
    The gift of G-d is love. Isn’t that was Yeshua and all the other great Jews were about?

    Oy.

    • froylein

      7/31/2010 at 4:25 pm

      Hey Israeli War Criminal, if you profess to have read the Quran in its original language, you should have read all of it. That said, please understand I’m a human being that pays any other human being the same kind of respect unless they are into shtuss. I’m not impressed by titles, even less so if I know how certain titles compare.

      Just apropos, if you had the gift of love, you wouldn’t have used the “oy”.

  89. Hannah

    1/25/2012 at 4:40 am

    Well there seems to be an obvious lack of rational thinking by all parties here, both Christians and Jews. @ Froylein: Jews do not have to have a eucharist because they ritually have wine and bread every Friday and Saturday anyway. So what would be the point of having a new term for what they already do. @ Rabbi Yonah: if I were to use your own words as a guideline for what is true and makes sense then by your definition of what a Jew is there would be a complete and utter negation of the conversion process that any foreigner goes through in order to become Jewish. All of the text written by Moses states that foreigners may most definitely join themselves to the Jewish people if it is their wish to do so and that they may freely eat with and celebrate with the Jewish people if it is their wish to do so. So to extrapolate on your methods of definition and exclusionism would not be in keeping with the truth. So am I calling you a liar? Yes. You are a liar and a fraud because you have the nerve to call yourself a rabbi but you neither read your torah for fun, only what your torah portion tells you to read and neither do you apply your torah for you are hateful, stunted and evil.

    The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ was and still is the son of the Almighty G-d who is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the son of G-d, so that makes Him equal to G-d. And placed himself into a human embryo in order that He might willingly give His life to save not only just Jews but all of mankind. He willingly lived and died as Jew in order for salvation to be fulfilled and the original contract that was extended to Ha Satan to have dominion and authority over planet earth could be voided and nullified. To say that Jews can’t be Jews because they believe in Jesus is utterly absurd. Jesus was born to a Jewish woman, was judged over by the Jewish Sanhedrin and willingly gave his life to be unjustly put to death because He loved Jews. The Sanhedrin did not pass any edict excommunicating Jesus or say that He was no longer a Jew, only that they did not agree with His statements that He was the son of G-d. They hated Him because He told them to their faces that they were only Rabbis in title because they loved the public benefits of being thought to be noble when in fact they were vile and venom filled (case in point). Blood and water are beautiful parts of the faith but the greater part is Christ – and Him crucified.

    • themiddle

      1/25/2012 at 6:10 am

      Hannah, are you sure about all of that?

  90. Tiff

    1/25/2012 at 3:34 pm

    I couldn’t care less if a person believes in Jesus (or God or the Torah or whatever) as long as they behave decently. Behaving decently implies to me you don’t resort to outright lies, mistranslations or put out your interpretation as absolute fact and the only road to salvation- all tactics of messianic Jews. I too am far from schooled in this area, but I don’t think anyone can convince me that I should respect or accept any religious group whose beliefs offend my sense of right and wrong. So truly I don’t respect those who believe in burkas, castes, female circumcision or yichus. Wouldn’t it be great if there was something that could help me define right and wrong (not just my gut feelings)? Oh yeah, there is.

  91. Tiff

    1/25/2012 at 3:46 pm

    p.s. Hannah, you have exactly the kind of attitude that makes me want to opt out of humanity. There is NO WAY you could know for sure many of the things you wrote in your comment., e.g. “The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ was and still is the son of the Almighty G-d”. The fact of the matter? Really?
    I bet you’re feeling all “Praise Jesus, Hallelujah!” after writing that, but please tell me where does your arrogance comes from? I don’t know how to say what I want to say now without sounding like an ass, but here goes: I truly believe that it is a sign of intelligence to be open to the possibility that you could be wrong. This is the lesson science teaches me everyday- if you think you got something all down, you are probably fooling yourself!

  92. Steve

    7/12/2012 at 2:55 pm

    Gen 22:18-19 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

    I ask you where is this messiah that will be a blessing to the Jew first and then to the gentile? Where is your hope in the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures of the living God.

    “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
    My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
    I have put My Spirit upon Him;
    He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

    2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
    Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

    3 A bruised reed He will not break,
    And smoking flax He will not quench;
    He will bring forth justice for truth.

    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
    Till He has established justice in the earth;
    And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

  93. Toma

    7/16/2012 at 12:27 pm

    I only read a few post and skipped right into my reply…
    (I appologise now for any comments that I make, that have already been stated as well for any spelling errors…)

    My name is Rabbi Toma, I am an Orthodox Jew, yet I consider myself to be Messianic, I’ll explain…

    1) I’ll make this clear from the start, I do not believe, (and I will use his hewbrew name), Y’shua as ever fullfilling any messianic prohicies in the Tora, Nevi’im (Prophets) or Ketuvim (Writtings), but was a precurser or the preparer for the comming of the Messiah.

    2) Here is were I get really controversial, I do believ, even though I do not believe that Y’shua is the Jewish Messiah, I do believe that what is writen in the Chirstian New Testament, stating all the miracles, from healling the lame, from raising the dead, to being crusified, and then being resuracted on the third day, to be true; One prohescie say that there will be one who will come to prepare the way for the comming of the Messiah, (paraphrasing of course), and that person in that particular prohecy, in my opionion was Y’shua.

    3) Here is were I break it down from Messiah or Prohet…
    NO! Y’shua was not the Messiah, in my belief, but a prophet who came to prepare us for the comming of the Messiah, (I should reiterate, the Jewish Messiah, this way those out there who have no schooling on this subject will understand).

    4) I am not a Rabbinic Priest, but simply a teacher; what I mean is, I am not a clerical Rabbi, but a plain and simple teacher. For simply, the word “Rabbi” in the Hewbrew language means “teacher”; The Rabbi is a modern term for the Aaronite Priest establishe by G-d through, in my opinion the only Prophet who realy understood G-d’ word, Moses, and G-d instucted Moses to make his brother Aaron chief of priest and for him to make other priest.

    5a) In the days of Y’shua, there were only two sects in Judaism, Sadusies and Pharasies. Sadusies had no belief in a ressuraction, but the Pharasies did believe in a ressurection.

    5b) Now, after the Christian movent hade begun, shortly after the “so called assention of Y’shua into Heaven”, were indistingishable from any other temple; I’ll explain….
    You had two temple’s in, we’ll say, Bethany, if you were a Jew, and you went to the temple on the, we”ll say north side of the city, you would find it typacle Jewish Temple practicing Judaism, But if that same Jew went to the temple on the south side of the city, he would find himself in another world, (these two temple’s are identcle, you would think they are of both Judaic faith), bit this Jew is there for the whole service, then he realizes, he just sat through a Christain serman.

    5c) Here is the intersting part, I’ll explain…
    at that time in history, Christains didn’t call themselve Christians, but what they had always been, Jewish… There was no difference in the way a normal Jewish temple practiced Judaism, and the way the followers of Y’shua practiced Judaism in the temple.

    6) It was in the 2nf or 3rd century, this is when Modern day Christianity as we know was born, Rome had been persicuting Christians since the ressurection, so a few men said we’ll write the new testament in war that will appeal to the Romans, thus creating the Romans and Cesar as good guys in all that went down, (you know what I am talking about), thus life long pagen Emperor Constatine, still a young man, made christianity the reliogion of the Roman empire, (of cource, many a blood war were faught between pegan and Christians), and here is were your Christains get this wrong, Constatine was a life long pegan, he only became a christain on his death bed.

    7) this is where modern Christaianity is what it is today,
    I’ll break it down…
    Jews, must be circumsised, keep the koshar laws, ect…
    The new Christian Cult, To reach out to the gentiles, (at that time, pagans), the leaders of the so called church says, no, you do not need to be circumsised, no, you do not have to follow kohar laws, ect….

    8) here is where I will, and pardon my language, piss all christians off…
    All so called Christain holodays, for exaple, Christmas, all dervived from a peagn holoday, all expept Easter. You see, Christmas was the first holoday to be invented by christians, as a way to keep pagen converts from reverting back to pagenism, was christmas, it was based on Saturnalia, some say it was the Yule solctice which is on the 21st or 22nd of December.

    9) modern day christians have the belief and doctrin they have all because of corruption, I’ll explain…
    during the 2nd and 3rd and so forth centuries, christians were persicuted, such as being crusifed, beheaded, torcherd, burned, as so forth. So it these fanatics who change everything that was orignially taught, (by the first christain sect that started right after the crussafixtion), into a way to make money and have wotld domination. Think about it, what is the worlds largest nation, no it is not any country but the catholic church. Which is a money making soul stealing corrupt cult hell bent on preaching false witness.

    10) Here is my last comment….
    The earliest christains, never worshiped Y’shua as the messiah but a prophet, much like the Muslims think about Mohamid, (Please note: I am not an expert on Islam, nor do I have any intention to speak ill of Muslim beliefs.)

    And please, All I ask is:
    Follow this number one golden rule, you ready?….

    NEVER DISCUSS RELIOGION OR POLOTICS WHITH ANY ONE.

  94. Daniel

    6/27/2013 at 1:17 am

    Just something I never understood. If believing that Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah automatically makes you not Jewish then how come all of those who believed he was the Messiah in the 1st century were Torah-practicing Jews and identified with the Jewish people? You can say “believing in Jesus makes you a Christian not a Jew” but this doesn’t make any sense because in the 1st century there was no separate religion called “Christianity”. “Christian” was originally a slur word and those who believed he was the Messiah didn’t originally call themselves “Christians” because they didn’t see their belief in Torah and the Messiah as constituting some entirely new religion.

    • Jesus

      6/27/2013 at 11:58 pm

      Pssst, son, I didn’t really view myself as “Christian” either. What is that business about anyway?

  95. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 3:35 pm

    I stumbled upon this and note how abysmally lacking in halacha and Jewish history so many of the “messianic Jewish” supporters there are here.

    Their messianic belief has nothing to do with God’s prophecy in Judaism.

    There have been failed messiahs in every generation in Judaism. Believing that someone is a messianic potential has never removed one from Judaism..if they were following the Jewish messianic belief from Tanakh.

    However, the Christian Bible’s REDEFINED concept is anti Torah and is idolatrous from the get go. The Statements of Faith of every Messianic Judaism group I’ve ever been able to discover online are antithetical to the affirmation of faith at Sinai.

    It is a lie tht there was no separate religion called Christianity in the first century. The early Christians separated themselves from the Jews before the destruction of the first Temple and did not ally themselves to the Jews after the massacre at the temple that incited the first revolt..and thus they were REWARDED by Rome for this by being exempted from the Jewish tax, the punitive tax placed upon Jews after the Temples destruction that was to take the place of the tithe for the Jewish Temple and instead go to Roman temples..to Jupiter included..and very humiliating to Jews. It was the refusal of Jews to submit a portion of the tithe for the Temple to be used in Roman pagan temples that incited Florius to raid the temple treasury and massacre thousands of jews in Jerusalem in the first place and Christians stood by and watched and gave their tax..freely.

    No, Chrisian was not a slur word it is in their own Bible and Jesus is the only failed messiah who was turned into an object of worship and a human sacrifice, both such egregious sins in themselves that they would individually separate a Jew from God and their covenant. Jesus wasn’t even known among Jews until after the New Testament appeared. Rome was crucifying Jews by the thousands and the roads into Jerusalem were lined with Jewish bodies.
    Believing in any foreign god or false god has always been rejecting Torah for a jew and God said in the Torah that such an act separates that soul from God and their people..it’s not my opinion, it’s God’s eternal word in Torah ( find it in Exodus)
    New Testament adherents reject what ALL Israel heard and directly witnessed with the Divine presence at Sinai, the incorporeal One who did NOT lie to us when He said God does not become a man.

    So many things wrong above me that the so called “messianic” believers professed when theyir messianic belief is antithetical to Gods promise to Israel and the world.
    There were more than two groups of Jews in the first century other than Sadducees and Pharisees..the Sadducees were also Roman collaborators as well as Christians being Roman collaborators. The Pharisees were the realists..who recognized that the Roman Empire if calling upon all its resources as it ultimately did..COULD possibly wipe out the Jews and wished to be pragmatic to try to save as many as possible. The Zealots wanted to wage war. The Pharisees survived.
    Rabbi does not mean teacher, but moreh means teacher. Rabbi means one great in knowledge of Torah..the root word rav..referring to great..and being a teacher is only one of the roles of a rabbi.
    The history of Christianity given here is also an unsupportable revisionism that can be laid to rest with the objective evidence of both Roman AND early Christian writings. Christians were allied with the Romans during both First and SEcond Jewish revolts and REWARDED by two different emperors for so doing. They even took up arms against the Jews in the Second Revolt. Why do Christians here try to hide that fact? That Christians took up arms against a failed messiah Simeon Bar Kochba who declared them enemies of Torah?

  96. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 3:47 pm

    I have not even read all the posts but felt compelled to correct at least some of the willful misinformation given here as it is always so repugnant to me to see people try to justify LIES in a sanctimonious manner..and I do mean repugnant.
    How can people who claim to be Jews..lie about us so openly and then profess to love Torah? It makes NO sense to me.

    They lie about Tanakh, about history and then profess to have the truth!
    How stupid do they think everyone is? Do they not realize that their preaching does not remove the objective evidence of archaeology? There is no objective evidence to show us whose deity is God, but there is clear objective evidence of archaeology to refute many of the historical lies I’ve seen posted here .
    Jesus fits the Christian religion’s redefinitions and once it’s notion of *messiah* changed from the Tanakh’s prophecy of a king of David’s lineage who would break the yolk of political and religious persecution for all and rule with humility, justice and mercy over Israel, to bring peace and universal knowledge of God..into a sacrificed savior deity and a kingdom focusing on the afterlife to meld the Hellenized and Romanized concepts, Christians became an extension of Rome. Read this for greater understanding of the purpose and development of Christianity as a tool to negate the Jews as a covenant nation people and make them a part of the Roman Empire.
    Christianity became a tool of the Roman Empire fairly early on in it’s spread.
    Religion and politics were inseparable in the ancient world, kings usually represented incarnate manifestations of their gods on earth. Polytheistic believers across the ancient Levant were accustomed to their political leaders telling them what gods were to be venerated during their rule and which deity their ruler was representative of in human form. Adding a new deity or giving a new name to an ancient deity whose belief was already established was how the conquering peoples assimilated their conquered. Tanakh recorded that any time such a practice of a Jewish king telling the Jews that they were to worship a foreign deity, the entire Jewish people suffered and did so at the very hands of the people whose deity they had left God to serve. That lesson is told right in our Jewish Bible in several dramatic narratives, the same one the Christians have as an adaptation of their Old Testament, yet they rarely see this in the story because their New Testament does not focus on the contextual meaning of the narrative, but imposes redefined meanings to support it’s dogma, often using topsy-turvy meaning to words and changes translations of phrases in a number of other places.
    Early Christian leaders did not want their flock to know the Paschal lamb represented a false man-god of Egypt, so they changed it into a sacrifice for sin to justify human sacrifice (or deicide depending on whether or not they are calling Jesus God in human form). Sin sacrifices are explained in detail in many places, and having nothing to do with the Passover sacrifice. Exodus makes no reference to the use of the Paschal lamb’s blood for expiating sin. Rather, it describes the blood on the door as an act of defiance to false gods and allegiance to the God of Israel. The sacrifice to God showed the Egyptians that the life force (blood) representing their deity was spilled by the Hebrew slaves and their god was powerless over the God of Israel to do a thing about it. It was an act of rejection of the gods of Egypt and alliance to the God of Israel, and that’s in the Torah in Exodus in context. Rather than show that Isaiah was slamming a man for calling himself a man/god representing Venus, Christian dogma personifies and makes a proper name from their Latin translation’s word for star and turns that story into something about a fall of angels (no where mentioned in that narrative at ALL) to create giving of the “name” Lucifer for a demon-god of their underworld hell. Every aspect of Jewish belief is given a new spin. Hellenized Jews already apostate to Judaism after four centuries of their occupation and Roman citizens of Judea and the Galilee, desired to entice other Jews to worship as the Greeks that they believed superior in philosophy and knowledge. Jews had laws forbidding these concepts outright so they created texts that tried syncretism, their efforts to claim ,see this is what it was supposed to have been all along. However, the reality remains that those beliefs of incarnate savior deities and human sacrifice are identical to the beliefs and practices that the Torah demonized.Tammuz/Adonis (melded in Roman occupied lands along with and became Mithras worship) were incarnate sacrificed savior deities who had followers of apostate Jews in the North (Galilee) and areas of Paul’s travels. Tammuz and the Romanized version of the Zoroastrian Mithras were both born of virgins (a concept having nothing to do with the Davidic Messiah or Tanakh) and their death was said to have brought their people reconciliation to their *sinful natures*. Being born with a burden of sin is a belief of the pagan peoples surrounding Judea and the Gallilee, and contradicts the Torah notion that humans may master evil inclination ( from Genesis) Tammuz was said to die and be reborn each spring. Tammuz worship had become widespread even before the destruction of the First Temple, and had so many apostate Jews as followers, it was condemned in Tanakh in the book of Ezekiel. There is still even a Hebrew month named for this pagan man/god despite the condemnation of his worship in the Holy Scriptures. Sir James Frazier’s book, The Golden Bough, is useful to learning about the widespread concept of Savior Kings that was not only found in the Middle east but in Europe and helped to aid the rapid spread of Christianity. Noted Oxford scholar and award winning Historian Richard Fletcher’s
    The Barbarian Conversion: From Paganism to Christianity also helps one to understand the development of many beliefs and rituals found in modern Christianity. The Christian concept of hell can be found in Plato’s “Republic” in the myth of Er and in Gorgias referring to Tartarus.
    At best, Christianity is a little less than 1/3 based on Jewish precept, but primarily a mixture of the beliefs of the polytheistic peoples in and round Judea and the Galilee of the first century. Once one begins an in-depth study of the religious practices and beliefs of all the peoples surrounding the Jews in the centuries just preceding the beginning of Christianity, one can see it was an effort to do away with Israel as a distict people and replace Judaism.
    A large percentage of the early church fathers who became martyrs did so at the hands of their co-religionists of competing sects when Christianity was not so clearly defined as a tool of the Roman empire.Any group that would threaten Roman authority would be persecuted by the Romans. Hundreds of thousands of Jews had been crucified to quell rebellion against Roman authority. This would have included any followers of any messiah hopeful (still speaking of the Jewish Bible concept) ; such a person could threaten Roman rule, since the prophetic vision of Judaism of “the messiah” is of a RULER, a king, who breaks the yolk of political oppression and persecution for all and brings about universal brotherhood, peace and knowledge of God. Therefore the early Christian groups (or followers of a living Jesus who hoped he could one day rule) who did not view Jesus as a divine incarnation or look to him as a sacrifice for sin, but perhaps hoped he would be reincarnated to do the job would most certainly have been a threat. Since Jesus was never an anointed ruler, he did not fit the job. However, once the doctrine of the New Testament that changed the Tanakh concept and prophecy of the Davidic messiah from meaning an anointed king who will do specific things, to mean an incarnate deity, a sacrifice for sin and a “kingdom” not of this world, this effectively changed the Christians from being enemies of Rome to tools of Rome! Those beliefs also clearly separated themselves from the Jewish people when they took on beliefs directly forbidden in the eternal covenant of Torah between God and Israel.
    The Temple treasury was raided in 66CE by the Roman governor of Judea, Florius and thousands of Jews were massacred in Jerusalem.
    The early Christians did not take part in the revolt incited by that massacre. They had separated from the customs, beliefs and from the Jewish people themselves by this time. Clearly, the Romans already regarded the Christians as a separate religion group, as objective historical evidence we know that the emperor Nerva (96?98 C.E.) freed the Christians from paying the Fiscus Judaicus that the previous emperor Vespasian had placed upon all Jews, including those who did not take part in the revolt , Since it was named the Jewish capitation tax decreed upon all Jews as a punishment for the revolt of 66?73 C.E it was an act of humiliation to see the temple tithe be used for Roman Temples. The Christians protested that they should not pay this tax since they were not Jews and Nerva acquiesced as he did not like the lowered income, but recognized the Christians as allied to Rome. There is objective evidende to all this.
    Emperor Hadrian later attempted to wipe out Judaism after they revolted against the previous Emperor, Trajan who was using the tax to build Roman Temples. He built a Roman temple to Jupiter on top of the ruins of the old Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which had been destroyed in 70 CE, and is said to have burnt the Torah on top of the Temple Mount in 135 CE .
    He then renamed Judea, Palestina, a Latinized version of the name of the Philistines, to insult the Jews and eliminate the history of Jewish presence.
    Christianity has never been a unified belief, from the earliest days of the Didache (instructions to the apostles on how to conduct church affairs) there were conflicts on how much Judaic influence should remain (was Jesus a god or not?) and it was often a very nasty affair. The Gnostics were largely killed off by their fellow Christians, but some Gnostic aspects do remain. A study of the Nag Hammadi library (translations from the Coptic are online) can help you discern this. Christianity really has little to do with Judaism other than an attempt to replace it with the beliefs of people who conquered the Jews.
    A 2nd time Christians refused to ally themselves with the Jews was the 2nd Jewish revolt against Rome. They allied themselves to the Romans and this time actually took up arms against Jews. This led to Davidic messiah hopeful, Simeon Bar Kochba,( briefly an actual anointed ruler) to view them as the enemies of Israel. After his murder and defeat Christians were once again rewarded by Rome and not expelled along with the Jews. Jews who looked to Bar Kochba as *the* Messiah did not view him as an incarnate manifestation of god, medium of atonement, nor his death as a sacrifice for sin in violation of Torah. Once he died without completing the job of the messiah, he was also abandoned as being believed to be the Davidic messiah. Rome had to call troops from as far away as Gaul and Great Britain to defeat Bar Kochba’s guerilla army.
    After Constantine – First Christian Emperor of Rome (285-337 CE) the Roman empire was Christian and it was used as a tool of conquest and assimilation throughout Europe. The doctrines of their “New” Testament were even named for the express purpose of claimng to have done away with the eternal covenant of Israel, they renamed an “Old” covenant.
    . That’s the Judaism we have today is the one that rejected the Greek texts being spread by Hellenized Jews and then the later Romans and finally, by the early church. It was not until the 1400’s that the last kindgom of Europe became officially Christian.
    The core doctrine of the New Testament that we know today as Christianity began as an attempt to negate the Jewish people as a separate covenant nation and assimilate them in Roman occupied Judea and the Galilee, and for syncretism of beliefs of the Hellenized Jews and Romans living there. Its holy texts and precepts depend on turning the beliefs of Judaism topsy-turvy in many regards. It is so very different from the concept of the nature of God to the manner that humans relate to God and to each other. Christianity borrowed words, phrases, and many of the stories of the ancient Hebrews, but reassigned to them meanings that are MUCH closer to the Romanized and Hellenized concepts of Roman occupied Judea.

  97. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 3:56 pm

    Christians ( or New Testament adherents if that name Christian is one you reject as vehemently as you reject that God told all Israel God does not become a man and that human sacrifice is an abomination) who fraudulently call themselves Jews do not honor Torah nor observe Torah when they impose idolatrous worship ( avodah zarah ) upon every mitzvot God obligates of Jews as a light unto the nations.

    They pervert Torah completely.

    Do not take my word for this. While there was a caution not to go to or to attend any of their functions, I believe it is important to know precisely what they are teaching and preaching because it is creating antisemitism on a level I never believed possible in the United States in the 21st century.

    They use the most demonizing and absurd fallacies within the New Testament that have historically been called upon to justify crusade, inquisition, pogrom and holocaust and now claim that Jews who refuse to abandon our eternal covenant are “hating” them for their belief that Jesus is the messiah.

    No other failed messiah was turned into an object of worship ..or a human sacrifice. Those two things are completely anti Torah. No getting around that unless you insist upon calling God a liar and Isaiah and Ezekiel liars ..God said God is not a man, Isaiah and Ezekiel condemned the very notion of God becoming incarnate. That is one thing that has differentiated Judaism and its purpose from ALL other religions of the ancient levant and that still differentiates it …it is MONOTHEISM in an incorporeal Creator who does not become an incarnate human. No human is above God and all humans including messiahs are equal before God in judgement.
    There are many messiahs in the Tanakh. Believing that someone is a messiah even if he wasn’t doesn’t separate a Jew from God, believing that a human is God does. Those who call themselves “messianic jews” show they reject what God told Moses directly when Moses offered to take on the sins of Israel. God said NO.

    God said that no man takes on the sins of another.
    I choose to believe God did not lie to Israel and remain within the covenant of my ancestors. Shalom y’all

  98. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 4:03 pm

    I keep seeing people say things like “think that the main point here should be if a Jew who believe in Jesus(a Jew fully observant of Torah) is still a Jew while a jew who believe in a pagan Indian deity or new age is considerate a jew in spite of their crazy pagans ideas. ”

    It is impossible to be a observant of Torah if you believe in Jesus. A Jew who prays to or through anything other than God is apostate. A Jew who becomes a theisitic Buddhist is apostate.

    A Jew who does not believe God exists is sinning, but God’s declaration of separating oneself from God and the covenant only had to deal with Idolatry and foreign false god worship. Take it up with God if you don’t like it. I didn’t write the unalterable Torah.

    it is a lie that a jew who believes in any other deity is still a practicing member of the Jewish community..they are every bit as apostate as a Jew who worships to or through Jesus or considers his death a sacrifice for sin.

    Not to mention the egregious violation of Passover to consider him a paschal lamb ( when ironically in calling him that, they don’t even recognize they’re calling him a false god!) Yet they sin egregiously to lie that the paschal lamb was a sin offering ins tead of the act of emancipation and defiance to the Egyptians and allegiance to God alone that it was. By killing and eating the representations of the Egyptians false gods they showed that God was more powerful that their mangod Pharaoh who was a false god. By placing the life force, the blood of their killed false god, they showed that the Egyptians false gods were indeed false..Exodus declares outright that it was punishment of the false gods of Egypt.

    Callling Jesus the Paschal lamb..shows their New Testament writers were ignorant of the Torah on that matter and had abysmal issues with the Hebrew. other writers revealed the same in their attempts to negate the Jews as a distinct people within the Empire.

  99. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 4:15 pm

    I stumbled upon this, too “I do mind, of course, when you attack the core of my being which is immutable and passionate for my G-d given heritage. I and many of my messianic brethern will go to the mat for the Jewish community and Israel when called upon to do so before gentile Christians – I did so in the face of propaganda being spewed by a presbyterian pastor at a Kiwanis club meeting in southeastern Kentucky and I know it was one of the most annointed things I ever did next to my Bar Mitzvah. My daughter was Bat Mitzvahed and my son is studying for his service. I know we are not perfect and the Yeshua disagreement is not to be minimized, it is crucial (study the eitiology of that word). Nonetheless,I am blessed by some very sweet posters on this blog. As for the other side, I understand and have come to expect it. Love in messiah, DM”

    So much is wrong with this. That someone who became a daughter of the covenant with Israel abandoned that for the antithetical to Torah “New TESTAMENT” and does not respect God’s commandments prohibiting human sacrifice and can fallaciously claim that their children will be decidated to the covenant of Israel when they are clearly being raised to reject it..is the epitome of contempt for Torah. It is a display of a sin equivalent to the murder of their own children. They are taking a Jewish soul and teaching it to be separated from their Creator in worship of a false god and in reliance upon the abomination of human sacrifice. And yet she sanctimoniously claims to speak out against an attack to her God given heritage when it is SHE that is perverting it more completely than any other possible means.

    You cannot attack your heritage of being a Jew any more extreme than to worship a man as a god or abdicate your personal accountability before God to pass along the covenant to your children and to abdicate your personal accountability before God for your “sins” upon the abomination of a human sacrifice. You are not a part of the covenant of Israel and your sham bar and bat mitzvah ceremonies are abuse of your children and of the holy stations they represent to be sons and daughters of the covenant of Israel that you have so completely rejected.

    I find it impossible to believe that growing up you gave any thing more than wrote lip service or memorization to anything Jewish if you were even honest at all about that. The last “Conservative Jew” who claimed to have been a bar mitzvah I met knew so little about Judaism he said ethnicity and “blood” defined Jewish identity! I know the less observant Reform bar mitzvah student would have learned more than that by age 9 let alone as an adult. So, the claims of being a jew are often exposed when they explain what they believed as a Jew..when the ideations are from NON Jewish misunderstandings or from Christian ideation and antithetical to Torah and Jduaism..they accept what Christians tell them about Judaism as being Judaism while they reject what Tanakh says in conext and what believing and educated Jews know from Tanakh IN context..thus revealing they were never practicing Jews to begin with!

  100. malkah

    7/17/2013 at 4:22 pm

    When Hannah says :@ Froylein: Jews do not have to have a eucharist because they ritually have wine and bread every Friday and Saturday anyway…

    that is so absurd.

    The eucharist is symbolically consuming Jesus blood and body. They are performing a pagan ritual symbolic of the ancient practice in the levant of taking the actual flesh and blood of a sacrificed mangod and consuming it to take on his power..( see the Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer)
    Even symbolically consuming blood is forbidden in Torah. Jews do not have any eucharist. That the “messianic” Jew wishes to impose such a completely repugnant forbidden idolatrous and pagan concept upon the holy observance of the kaddish reveals once again how anti Torah those “Torah observant Messianic Jews” who are in reality.Christians in disguise…really are.

    they are not Jewish..their beliefs are antithetical to everything Torah calls holy and to the very purpose of the covenant of Israel and the Davidic messiah

    they claim oh Jesus will finish the job when he comes a second time

    Can’t they count? They claim he came back..was resurrected..but he still did absolutely NOTHING promised. He was not a messiah ( anointed ruler) he did not have a humble rule from Jerusalem, he did not break the yolk of oppression first for the Jew and then for all oppressed with injustice, he did not bring justice and mercy to the world, he did not bring universal peace, universal brotherhood and universal knowledge of God ( that’s obvious because millions worship HIM instead!) and instead his legacy brought the antithesis of the messianic age to the world and to every country that was conquered by the Chrisian sword and to every people decimated by the missionary

    Every people has a purpose..and a purpose to exist and God is not exclusive to the Jewish people..but by God we are exclusive TO God. More than Israel has kept the Torah, the Torah has kept Israel. Am Yisrael Chai.

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