I struggle with labels, really I do. I’ve long said that everyone these days seems eager to slap a new and inventive label (Hippiedox, Conservadox, Flexidox) on themselves in order to describe their uniquely complex and nuanced relationship with Judaism ( e.g., “I go to an Orthodox shul, but go to the gym Shabbat afternoon, and will take the subway because, like a Shabbat elevator, it stops at every station anyway”). As a result, no label really means anything anymore.

So, during my brief period on Frumster, I aligned myself with the most newly founded and most liberal category or label: “Traditional and Growing.” I chose this label because not choosing a label was not an option, and because this seemed like the most moderate, the most liberal, the most (if not exactly) resemblant of my observance. All the other labels included terms that I would never use to describe myself: yeshivish, black hat, ba’al teshuvah, etc)

Because the people contacting me were never people I could see myself with religiously (and because none of them seemed to possess anything resembling a sense of humor), I deactivated my Frumster profile last month, but today, got this message from their customer support team informing me that I’d been “reclassified.”

Dear Member,

Your observance category of “Traditional and Growing” has recently been re-classified to a Jewish Outlook of “Traditional or Non-Orthodox”.

Members within this Jewish Outlook now need to choose an affiliation from the list below:
Traditional and Growing
Traditional
Conservadox
Conservative
Other

If you do not choose an affiliation, your profile display will be listed as Traditional.

Forget for a minute the fact that I’ve deactivated my profile, so I shouldn’t be getting these messages anyway. After my initial chuckle about being reclassified, I was pretty happy to see this. Because it’s an acknowledgment that there’s more to observance than Orthodoxy (which is how things were set up initially).

Is this improvement enough to get me back on board at Frumster? Not really. Because another word I would never use is right there in the name of the site: “frum.” The connotations don’t really jive with my outlook. Because people expect me to come up with some sort of label, I do. I use Conservadox, or Traditional, or Observant. But for the most part people just end up shaking their heads, wanting the specifics: Do you eat dairy out? Do you use electricity on Shabbat? When you get married will you cover your hair?

Maybe the nebulous they in the ether of the internet should create a site for people who are “As Jewish As We Wanna Be.” People write essays and essays (and not particularly well, at that) for online dating services about what they’re looking for in a partner. I say make ’em write an old-school thesis (#2 pencils optional) about the kind of Jewish life they live now and how they’d like a partner to help them build a Jewish home. Force them to think about Judaism as a lifestyle and describe it to someone they’ve never met before.

I’ve seen and heard parents, urging their children to stop crying and actually express themselves verbally, tell the whiny kid to “use your words.” Maybe that’s the trick…it’s not “use your word,” or “use your label.” If a kid grunted “hungry” or “frustrated,” would parents be happier? It’s use your words, preferably in a full sentence, with a subject and predicate (don’t make me diagram what a proper sentence looks like).

We should all use our words, and not rely on labels or assumptions to make ourselves understood. If we’re lucky, it could lead to dancing.

About the author

Esther Kustanowitz

For more posts by Esther, see EstherK.com, MyUrbanKvetch.com and JDatersAnonymous.com.

317 Comments

  • Esther…while I agree with you (re: labels), isn’t that why we have Jdate?

  • I think it’s better to have more options than less. That being said, I’d check myself off as traditional but couldn’t any of the groups be growing? Black hat and growing, conservative and growing- there’s always room to grow isn’t there?

  • Frumster is interesting, especially some of the labels they use. Now for your info I am a deeply religious Orthodox, totally don’t-roll-on-shabbos guy…Think Tevye and Menachem Schneerson meet…er….Mick Foley.

    That being said, I don’t know what the hell a Carlebachian is, or what the difference between an liberal Modern Orthodox and a machmir Modern Orthodox is. I just don’t appreciate the labels. Classifiying Jews should go no farther than which Nusach they follow. Ashkenaz, Sephard, HaAri, whatever, just come in (bring your own siddur) and have a good time with this life. Do as many mitzvos as is your ability and I’m not complaining. True, I won’t go to a Reform Temple…but that doesn’t mean they aren’t Jews…their service just isn’t kosher, so whatever. Doesn’t mean i can’t talk to them, or discuss halacha. Ahavat Yisroel, man, that’s what it’s all about.

    Except for Jews for Jesus, those motherfuckers are heretics.

  • Here’s the deal with Frumster – It’s NOT FRUMSTER”S fault!!! It’s the fault of the dazed and confused Jewish singles out there who don’t know what they stand for what they want where they’re going what makes them happy or anything…and so, when you ask them, um what are you looking for, they immediately describe someone who has to fit in their OWN very narrow catergory of whatever they are RIGHT THEN and can’t tolerate the THOUGHT of anyone being just the slightest bit different from that, because then, well, then they’d have to COMPROMISE or worse, face something that’s UNKNOWN…..and yikes who can do that….

    And then Esther will tell you, well, I’m open to EVERYONE and that’s the same as not being open to ANYONE…so that’s why frumster has to have all these classifications for all the Jews who are anything more than regular secular Jews out there….

    And it’s sad. Yes, said. Jsirpicco weeps. For the Children. The aging 35 year old children – and I was almost one of them, so actually my heart is with you! The children stuck in this void, this no-man’s land (pun, poignantly intended!)

    It’s like some kind of warped Star Trek episode where everyone remains single and 35 forever and ever and ever until the entire world has dated everyone and rejected each other and so, they died out…until Spock comes and re-“seeds” the ladies! Cut to: He dies, exhausted, a smile across his emotionless vulcan face!

  • Jsirpicco,
    Your PTSD is acting up again. You may wanna go for another round of that EMDR that everyone’s talking about.

  • Shtreimel, it’s not immediately clear what, if anything, JDate is for.

    Someone give Spock my number.

  • Esther,

    I know quite a few people who met, slept together and never spoke again because of Jdate. Maybe that’s what it’s for.

  • It’s not “french benefits” but “fringe benefits” as in, sex b/w friends w/o the responsibility of a monogamous relationship.

    PTSD:
    Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

    EMDR:
    Eye Movement
    Desensitization and Reprocessing

  • oh. silly me. Been so long. RE: my mental physical state: Jsirpicco is above space and time existing in several dimensions at once. I Jsirp What I Will Jsirp. But you may call me: THOU

  • I agree with Reb Nachum, right on. We should also include the Karaites and the Samaritans in there too. They’re certainly very steadfast in their belief that G-d is One, unlike the Jews For Jesus.

  • To think I’ve been looking at JDate all wrong…thank you, Shtreimel, for giving me the 411.

    For the first time, I agree with Jsirpicco. Dating is like science fiction. Invasion of the Pod People. The Blob. Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Plan 9 From Outer Space. Close Encounters of the Nerd Kind. The Tingler. Boring Lawyer. Deranged Accountant. The list goes on.

    Truthfully, I haven’t had any luck with online dating anywhere. But maybe I’ll try somewhere new. JPostDating, perhaps…

  • We love to hate labels, but they do serve a purpose. We simply don’t have time to give a twenty minute speech each time we meet someone about the nuances of where we stand on each religious and social issue, so we define ourselves Religious Left wing, or whatever for the sake of brevity and convience.

    The over emphasis is certain Jewish communities on exactly what is your Hashgacha is another matter. I’m in agreement with Reb Nachum about that.

    There are however two categories I would suggest within the heading of “religious”; 1) Judaism as a way of life 2) Judaism as a way of geting close to God.
    That, more than anything else I think defines how you approach your practice.

  • The funny, yet sad, thing about the Frumster categories is that no one really agrees as to what each of them really means. People end up searching through every category anyway, and if they actually start communicating in real time, they inevitably share their viewpoints about them with each other.

    I actually like what Laya suggested as categories to help define “religious” [and, btw, Frumster is meant to help “religious” Jews meet and marry]: “1)Judaism as a way of life [and] 2) Judaism as a way of getting close to God.”

    If you were to look at other Jewish websites (like JMatch (you’re welcome, Sonny), there are a few strategically-placed areas where you can define yourself Jewishly: are you reform, conservative, traditional or orthodox?; are you ashkanazi or separdic? (this would be an important distinction for ck), and a place to answer the question, “What does being Jewish mean to me?” The latter being a good area that laya could focus on.

    And Esther, science fiction has invaded our entire culture, not just JDate or Frumster. Just look outside of your apartment window . . .

  • This was a great post! When I first got my Get after 11 years of living as a “Frum” mother and raising “Orthodox” children, I met a man on Frumster for a date…long story short…he is also on Nerve. com looking for couples sex. So I find all these labels very humorous and I think the Frumster people take their job of cubbyholing people way WAY too seriously. What would they label a guy who lives in Teaneck and keeps Kosher and Shabbos but wants you to pee in his mouth during oral sex? I went out with him too and it really bothered me because he wouldn’t let me order the non-kosher wine at the non-kosher restaurant we went to (he had plain salad). I guess pee is kosher if comes from someone he keeps kosher? Don’t know. Sorry to be so graphic, but this hasn’t been easy on me.

  • Okay – Besides being completely addicted at this point – I’ll have to take abreak from the blog world or I”LL DIE!!!! I have to point out that Chutzpah’s post is scary. Sad. Scary. Frightening. Disheartening. It makes Jsirpicco cry for the Jewish people. Oy Vey! Are we really a nation of such perveted weirdos?

    It’s one thing to joke around, it’s one thing to “look” at pretty girls or have a problem with “not looking,” and it’s one thing to date guys or girls that are just not in the ballpark for many reasons…but yikes! It’s another thing when the DARK SINISTER side of it starts coming out, as in this PUTRID PIECE OF DREK that dated Chutzpah – putting it out there like that.

    I mean, have we descended to the lowest levels of this garbage that a guy trying to impress a respectable person – and assumed to be in 40s by now talks like a frat house Shagitz! What GOES ON IN HIS APARTMENT when no one’s around..yikes!

    And worse…Chutzpah – how did you not see it? In something beforehand, something that would have tipped you off that he was a seething psychopath?

    I’ve seen scary stuff like this from the girls out there, too, though in different ways.

    People, there’s a crisis out there in the Jewish world! (Duh, okay, I KNOW YOU KNOW already….) And you guys on this blog are part of the smaller percentage THAT CARES!

    It’s like one day, we’re all going to have to get up stand up stand up for what’s right and overturn EVERY SINGLE THING about our ENTIRE personalities just to be human again….

    Yes, yet again, Jsirpicco weeps. If only I were a Gadol. I cudda been a contender, instead of the bum, which is what I am…

    I feel like I should be standing in Times Square, ranting there…DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS TO SEE THE SICKNESS SPREAD AND NOT BE ABLE TO STOP IT??????

    Oooops. They’re calling again. Damn. Gotta go.

  • Um, Chutzpah, seriously, you have a great blog. I loved reading some of it just now! I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m sorry to hear about the pee in the mouth guy, but heck, we all need some special life experiences to keep us honest.

    …And it’s all the more special that you’re sharing it with us. Please feel free to share more cuz we already have too many people regaling us with stories about how it’s all great to find the perfect partner, especially if she’ll cook for you.

  • Chutzpah should be provided with posting privillages on Jewlicious. Nothing like a writer who doesn’t fit a mold, is honest and has edge. Love it.

    Woody Allen did a bit similar to Chutzpah’s dating experience in Crimes and Misdemeanors . One of the funniest W. Allen scenes ever.

    “Phew…Yuch….”.

  • SIGH….
    The situation Esther describes is just another aspect of a similar problem in the “ultra” shidduch date scene:
    Laundry List Syndrome.

    I agree to a point with sirpicco that part of it is people not knowing what they want. But paradoxically, part of it is trying to define too tightly what you want.

    Assuming that religious/traditional people are not buying into the secular nonsense of disposable or “starter” marriages, and are looking for a solid, lifelong committment – you cannot know all there is to know about your partner.

    In a society in which people have increasingly detailed life plans – and in which romantic matters are increasingly chaotic – this can be a very scary truth. But it’s the truth.

    Dating is the meeting of 2 icebergs – 80 percent of both people remains hidden and submerged. Heck, some very important qualities of one’s own character remain a mystery to oneself at the dating age – because one has not yet faced some tests of life.

    The notion that there is some checklist that can be used to eliminate the risks of the next 30-40 years of life (or more! I wish you all more!)… it’s understandable – but it’s panicky, simplistic, and childish.

    With regard to religious classification, this is certainly true. My brother-in-law started as a MOR baal-teshuva, and now is a staunchly messianic Habadnik. Other friends have drifted in other directions. Yes, sometimes the marriage doesn’t last such growth. But that growth is a fact of life – as are all sorts of medical, career, and emotional challenges that cannot be anticipated. It’s as foolish to try to pin this down as it is for yeshiva guys to ask the girl what size dress her mother wears.

    The battle for singles is to retain this openness to another person’s possibilities, the long-view understanding that all that can be determined now is if there is a basic click of love, admiration, shared values, and respect.

    I think this is why several of my friends met their mates when they found themselves out of NYC or other large singles communities – it was necessary to get out from under the crush of numbers and social expectations, to drop the pretenses and regain the breathing space that lets us see a person (and reveal ourselves) in that open, long-term-potential way.

    It’s obvious too that, whatever your religious beliefs, the intrusion of sex on this process only causes problems. Women must keep their guard up to avoid exploitation, or suffer when the heat of passion wilts their delicate intuition antennae. Men who really want a mate must make up their own rules of engagement (which is one reason why the Frumsters and Jdates of the world were created), fight against the impression that they are saps, and fight to maintain their focus.

    Useful questions asked me when I was dating:
    Do you believe in this person – in their basic goodness?

    Do you feel a desire to help and protect this person? To give them pleasure?

    Are you willing to lay down your monthly salary to further this person’s goals in the world?

    No checklists.
    What is the gestalt of this person – and do you connect with that? Do they seem to connect with you?

  • B”H

    Yeah, those frumster labels seem kind of silly don’t they? After much use and therefore experience with frumster shtick I found some honesty, cuteness.

    Check out these frumster funnies:

    From ruth (ID 26225)
    in her profile

    I have brown eyes and brown hair. I like animals. I wear pants at home but skirts in the outside. I enjoy meeting new people. I study for a degree in English education. My goal in life is to retire, but first I must find a job.

    From DESPERATEandPATHETIC (ID 19057)
    in his profile

    What Yeshivish Modern means to me:

    an oxymoron. probably means you’re a little confused (i’m just a regular guy who’s serious about his religion)

    From Chavadina (ID 22862)
    in a post at the forum under age issue

    That being said–and men please pay attention!–most women would only get into a serious relationship with a man much older than they are IF he is a exceptionally special person. And we women know that VERY few men are as exceptional as they think they are!

    From EML (ID 3152)
    in her profile

    Character is most important. The gentleman I seek is very much into self-improvement and growth in all areas. He must be refined, polite, kind-natured, and not superficial. He has depth, intelligence, is a thinking person, independent, sensitive, and able to laugh. He is a professional, articulate, emotionally stable with good social skills, not an introvert or loner. His spiritual and physical worlds are balanced in a healthy way. He is family-oriented and eager to get married to raise a family. Last but not least he must cherish me. (You must be laughing by now… I know this does not exist in one package. I am merely describing what I consider ideal.)

    Quote from my Rabbi, “If I would of made this stuff up, you’ld think I’d be brilliant!”

  • And saps deserve love, for sure. But none of these women’s profiles tell you anything about them or what they’re looking for because they employ cliches that could apply to anyone.

    Honesty? Great. Cuteness? Well…And farbeit from me to be the arbiter of “funny,” but allow me to be the arbiter of “funny” and proclaim that these are not. How I’d improve them?

    “I study for a degree in English education.” would become…”I am studying for a degree in English education, which seems redundant, as it involves educating myself in English. I already speak English, and I’m already educated, and yet here I am. Sometimes my head hurts.”

    “The gentleman I seek is very much into growth in all areas” would become…”except nose and ear hair, as those can be easily trimmed using any one of several infomercial products which can be ordered using a toll-free number. That’s right…the call is free.”

    And I know DESPERATEandPATHETIC is supposed to be a joke, but he might as well name his profile NEVERGONNAGETIT or NEVERGONNADATEWITHAPROFILENAMELIKETHIS.

    IMHO FWIW (in my humble opinion, for what it’s worth), which may be nothing.

  • Male saps. Saps were mentioned in Post 23, a truly great post. And, what did he mean by saying that the men get to establish the rules of engagement? Very candid, that. Hmm.

  • Muffti is a little confused. In the real world of dating (i.e. not online), people don’t ask eachother for full resumes before they go out. They go out, hopefully have a good time. If all goes well, they keep on doing it, slowly character is revealed, slowly you get to know what is annoying about the person and what is loveable about them. You get to know which plans of their are superficial and which ones deep and real. And you get to know the ins and outs of their religious practices.

    But all this takes some time, ya know? And it’s nice that it takes that time because it’s all part of a slow revelation that people who fall in love kind of enjoy. In the ‘real world’, you don’t have a scanner that gives you full details about the person you are about to ask out. And whatever they first tell you is really only of marginal utility because that’s their public persona and what you really want to know is their personal persona.

    So, Muffti guess he’d like to know, why would you expect anything more from online dating? Why is it a good thing to list maximally specific traits? Muffti thinks broad categories are a good thing because they can give you just enough information to avoid people that are obviously totally innapropriate and then the discovery process can begin. Part of the point of dating and love is the commitment to slowly finding out what your partner is alll about. You are robbed of that completely is your get a CIA maximally specific profile.

    Then again, what does Muffti know? He hasn’t really done dating sites (though there was that time CK signed him up for a gay dating service w/out telling him. The revenge for that is still coming, Mr. Christ Killer. Be afraid.) And his real world dating is spotty at best. 🙂

  • What does GM think about the hypothesis that people already know The One but haven’t realised it?

  • laya thinks she may actually agree with muffti. Online dating breaks people down into checklists which are then to be judged with no nuance and very little personality attached, which is not how people work.

    While there is defintly something to be said about knowing th basics of someone before going out with them, sometimes i wonder if online dating, the way it is, encourages people’s pickiness and the confusion of wants for needs, all while tapping into the paralizing effect of having a seemingly endless array of choices. It’s like if you can find someone else with all of your key words, you must be soul mates! Perfection must be out there somewhere (but then, I don’t believe in sould mates, and have never actually tried online dating, so i also dont really know what i’m talking about)

    However I also don’t agree with the method of meeting someone you’re hot for and jumping in knowing nothing about thier character hoping that the pieces will all fall into place eventually.

  • A guy could say to himself, if I made four times as much money as I now do, who among my female acquaintance would I maritally approach? That is The One.

    Money is fluid so don’t worry about it. All the money in the world belongs to G-d so don’t worry, you will get what you need. When you are married, money stops being the engine of impressing people, because you have already impressed someone. Married life is much easier than single life.

  • laya: I can surreptitiously sign you up on a gay male dating site if you like.

    Uh wait a minute, have I already done that??

    Uhm… gotta go.

  • I dunno, it seems to me that the Internet gives us easy access to many people we would never otherwise meet. It also enables some drilling down so that you at least know that something of interest to you exists in the other person, and that something is deeper, or at least more, than an initial physical attraction.

  • The question of The One is something I think we’ve all thought about: is there only one person for you? And have you already met him or her, but for whatever reason, failed to recognize that person’s potential?

    Keywords do not a match make. I mean, how many times have we said “on paper, he’s perfect for me,” and yet we always use that as a preamble to “but, there’s just no connection.” Or worse, one of us connects and the other one doesn’t.

    Personality, temperament, humor, soul…these are all ingredients in what is an extremely complicated cocktail. Online dating, for some, helps to structure expectations and create an architectural plan for their soulmate. (We all know people who have met significant others online, so it’s not all bad.) But for others, it serves as a restriction, and contains their three-dimensionality within the confines of a 2-D profile. And that’s just in general. Once you add religious observance, it seems to be a whole different ball game.

  • Esther reminds us that Internet dating is profoundly, conceptually flawed. Shouldn’t we be checking our brains at the door? What happened to passion, risk-taking, leaps of faith?

    Instead, we cram ourselves to fit within someone else’s typology of humanity. Ugh.

    And are we looking for clones? No. We’re looking for what’s not similar to us, what we don’t have. We’re seeking to be completed. Cf. Aristophanes’s tale of the origins of gender in ‘Symposium’.

    (On the other hand– if you want to get laid, NOW, the Internet’s for you.)

  • Being with your beloved is not like a mult-media extravaganza on steroids. You just like them a bunch, is all. That’s all. If you are waiting for a Faye Wray – King Kong experience …. you will have a long wait.

    Ordinary Human Being meets another Ordinary Human Being, they marry, have Ordinary Human Offspring. They all look cute, but essentially ordinary, while snugly asleep in their little beds.

    Doesn’t sell tickets, but life is not a movie.

  • Esther, keywords are not all one gets in profiles. People also get a chance to speak about themselves a little. I sometimes read them because they’re fascinating and they do often offer a little window into a person. Does it tell us a lot about them? No. But it at least enables me to know some basics – just as if somebody was introducing me to a friend to date or setting up a blind date for me.

    I agree with Muffti that there is pleasure in getting to know the person (unless the person suddenly says, “Please pee in my mouth”), but I don’t think it’s any different with people you meet online.

    And speaking of peeing in the mouth, where does somebody get the balls to even ask for that particular service, even if one is weird enough to get off on it?

  • Wait, hold up. Laya said:

    laya thinks she may actually agree with muffti.

    Maybe the Moshiach really is on its way!

    TM, all Muffti meant is that the need for personal details before you start dating seems like a futile quest. For one, as everyone who has dated anyone for a while knows, the public persona people put out masks just about everything important. Insecurities, aspirations and character traits (and perhaps the occasional oddly shaped and placed mole) are things you find out by letting the person reveal themselves to you as they trust you more. The need for information upfront just seems like more requests for superficial features. You want to date and marry someone you are going to like? Go date a few people and discover all the stuff that is behind the billions of possible ways to categorize yourself.

    Muffti is starting to sound like JM. He’ll stop.

  • Why am I always the only one sticking up for poor JDate? I met my husband on JDate! (But maybe it only works for us folks outside the NYC area.)

  • Wahwahweewah!!! This post sure has given us a lot to chew on. I have also found myself in this horrible conundrum over dating. I have tried dating from many approaches, and I’m starting to become bitter about the whole entire thing. Life as a single observant jew is truly confusing, especially if you, like many have already stated in this post, don’t fit so nicely into these catagories.
    What the heck am I, anyway??? I daven three times a day, but I love the Family Guy and Kung-Fu movies. I fervently do the Daf, but I play in a rock band (real rock, not like Blue Fringe). Looking at all the checklists and pulldown menus makes somebody like me go bonkers. I appreciate the fact that these websites afford me the opportunity to meet ladies, who’s paths I might otherwise never cross. Thanks for that. But something’s got to change. I think Laya, Mufti, and Esther might be on to something, and should probably start their own dating site. 😉
    But seriously, dating in the real world has become just as frustrating. I definitely would like to date a girl who is around as obvservant as I am, or is trying to grow, but there’s so much more than that. As a cohen, I have to be even more “picky” as it were… my priestly status has placed me in some interesting dating scenarios over the past few years. When will it end? The dating process, while entertaining at times, seems like some kind of parallel universe into which I’ve stumbled, with no easy way out. I really doubt unmarried life is supposed to feel like this.
    Advice, anyone???

  • Laya is right. GM is right. But can you be Jewlicious if you are married?

  • Muffti, while our mutual dating practices may be quite a bit different we do indeed agree on this. Ain’t it a beautiful day?

    You want to have compatable lifestyle with however you get involved with (if you are both equally commited to living on opposite ends of the world for instance, that would be a case of “a bird and a fish can fall in love but where do they build a home” ) but past the basics, you really can’t predict what will make two people click.

    The whole dating world I find is also very ego centric. It’s all about what *I* want, what *I’m* looking for, i never hear anyone open with what they feel they have to give.

    Tobias. Dating is no doubt frustrating. In the mean time just work on making yourself into someone you want the kind of person you want to want. If that makes sense. But then really, i know nothing about this and no one need listen to me.

  • I’d never really paid attention to the internet dating sites (I’m married, and there doesn’t seem to be a “Married, but not dead” category on JDate…), but this discussion kinda got me curious.

    What I saw was that many people *think* they know who they are and what they’re looking for. But they really give Too Much Information.

    For example: If I, as a younger version of me, had written a paragraph about myself, I probably would’ve written that I was cute, athletic, brilliant, 5’5″, into long walks on the beach, classical music, museums, sushi and traveling. I’d continue about how I was looking for a tall guy who enjoys nature, has an advanced degree in something that makes the world a better place, etc…..

    I never would have met my husband in a million years.

    You see, he probably would’ve been looking for a tall, slim girl who enjoyed very loud music, old science fiction movies, vintage keyboards, trains and didn’t mind if he was up all hours of the night working on the computer.

    We met (in person) and hit it off anyway, because the first night we hung out we discovered a shared love for baba ganoush (I’d never heard of it).

    I’m kinda thinking that an ideal online personal would read like this:
    Looking for someone with a little time in their life to happen to be by the counter at Starbuck’s so we can casually talk about trivial stuff while waiting in line, discover we both can’t stand lattes, move the conversation to a table, and an hour later decide if we want to have dinner together tomorrow.

    That way, age, height, looks, favorite color, whether you like dogs or cats- all of those things that seem like they should matter but ultimately don’t- won’t interfere with meeting someone with the qualities you’re really after, but just don’t realize yet.

    Good luck.

  • Laya, YOU certainly would be.

    Maybe YOU have to make it happen?

  • C-Girl, just thought maybe people don’t want to leave the party and get weighed down or something. Totally agree with you.

  • I’m in agreement with conserva-girl as well. wow, this whole agreement thing feels all warm and bubbly. And Jewish mother, thanks, but I’m in no hurry. TM holds down the married side of the Jewlicious fort.

  • Conserva-Girl, I hope you didn’t mean to imply that coffee-lovers and latte-loathers can’t find mutual ground(s) (sorry!) for discussion and relationships…

    Mirty, I acknowledge that JDate works for some people. Just hasn’t worked for me. But then again, neither has anything else. Unless you call being permanent mayor of the Friend Zone “working.”

    Jewliciousness is not just for singles. It is like knowledge, open to all who seek it. It is like the Force, surrounding us, penetrating us, and binding the galaxy together. It is like the perfect pair of shoes, yes? Stylish, comfortable, accessible. Jewliciousness is a chai latte, a Manischewitz concord grape-accino. It is beyond labels. It is writers teetering on the border between Jewish tradition and insanity. It is love and respect and defiance, observance, irreverence and humor. And maybe, someday, also a magazine.

    In fact, I’m going to suggest that online dating services add “Jewlicious” to their drop-down menu of self-definition options.

    The Laya, she will always be Jewlicious. And you can take that to the bank (which we are supposed to be controlling).

  • Why are Jewlicious women in no hurry? In the language of men, “maybe later” means “maybe later”. But in the language of women “maybe later” means not now, and as we will never live in any other moment than now, it means no.

    No.

    So, why not?

  • B”H

    Only a jew could write some of the crazy stuff on jew date sites. As far as those funnies on frumster goes, I have no doubt to say that they are 100 % kosher certified darlings. Part of what I see is venting the un bearable pain of jew boo-hoo single life. I have been on jdate, jewish quality singles, Mitmazel, jewishpersonels, Yenta…Had accounts, some of them paid, a few of them current.n the last 9 or so years of internet searching. I have only tried to date 3 times through internet contact. All 3 of those agreed upon meetings or dates the ladies flacked on me. One of them was through Frumster. I drove 200 miles to meet her in another city and she flacked and didn’t even show. Later, in frumster post she admited that she flacked and just was glad I was in the restaurant with something to eat. I have dated extensively through shadchan contact. It seems shadchanim pressure the ladies not to just flake. It is bad midos etc… and often Shadchanim, as much or more then internet shadchanim, want money up front to do thier shtick. So there is more of a sense of you paid for this, you got go through the transaction. Besides, the shadchans can be Rabbis, youre teachers, youre Yenta- Rebetzin-Rabbineet who has a physical and personel reality that is harder to ignore then a computer. So Technically, I have had much more success with professional, real time people, shadchanim then Internet post and website. So, in my shadchan arranged dating career spaning 15 or so years since just the last year or so of Yeshiva days for me, I have been on 3 or so dozen dates, with almost zippo flaking.

    Some of this Cyber Tsibur shtut is just reality these days. It has been years since most jews have been kicked, beaten and killed out of most of the ghettoes these days. From what I understand, most people in this country or westernish world meet at work. That makes sense because that is where they spend most of thier time. That is where they learned to think and what they value.
    For Jews, not so easy. Maybe some who are still out there in jew ghettoes find thier soulmates through tradition inspired community shadchanim and basic grapevine infrastructure because of being born with it etc, FFB, whatever…. Not most of us.

    There is no way out of dealing with the pain of dating and searching for youre soul mate as I see it. Rejection in dating, internet or not is the same as getting the door slammed in youre face. I have no doubt about that. There is no way to know if all that heart ache and but ache will have anything to do with how fast or slow meeting the one and only is. The mating process involves physical movement therefore, as I understand, physical matters in the most simple sense is strictly divine providense. The part of life we control is more in the way or how we deal with the physical. The how we deal with it is just as important. I can say though that dating in all its forms is a way of paying dues. Some how we need to do this, the reason is not clear. Maybe some of those reasons are known, only some. I wouldn’t be so stupid to think I could even fathom the multitudes of factors that go into that “Cocktail” like I believe Esther was talking about in that previous post.

  • Esther, if you provide me with some keywords, I’ll ask Tobias for his and decide if there’s a there there.

  • But TM, Laya, GM and C-Girl all say to just hang out a little and stuff and no keywords. Just saying. I notice C-Girl brought up food. Babaganoush. Ha.

  • Tef SHbe, great post imho. I hope you are not looking for tall slim likes science fiction and knows the difference between a ratchet and a wrench?

  • TM, whatchoo talkin’ bout? Figure out if there’s a there there? It’s so obvious it’s cryptic, I guess.

  • B”H

    I have to realize this is not just a “singles” site.

    One time, several years ago, in a Jdate chat

    room, a married woman who anounced herself

    to being happily married lady, just dropped in

    with the said intent of arranging something for

    a friend and wanting to learn of what jewish

    single internet shtick is. That lady was subject

    to extreme dissaproval and a certain amount

    of verbal-written abuse by most of the

    individuals online in that room at that time after

    that anouncement. That married lady only

    popped in once or twice afterwards. Jdate

    isn’t like that any more. Jdate is jewish like

    Grand central Station or the Port Authority bus

    station, the same amount of people go

    through them….It used to be though. The only

    other time I have seen a chat room gang up

    somebody like that is when a said arabian

    showed up asking something like, “is this an

    Israelian jew dog site? are you Israelian

    dogs?….. in those words and spelled that way.

    He said he was some Kuwati. That time I fully

    participated in the pack like behaviour that

    everybody in that room did and was amongst

    those that made sure that guy never popped

    in again. GROWLLLL, rip, slash, abuse,

    chomp!!!….

    Obviously, jewlicious isn’t jdate…..

  • An honest answer. But I am concerned that the need and the power may not be in sync at a later day. Is it not better to be too careful than not careful enough?

  • B”H

    I have seen so many times people saying, ” I don’t want to

    go out now, I am so busy with…..” Often they don’t go out or

    internet or whatwever, then they just get married or appear

    mated in some way instantly. When it happens it happens

    regardless. One reason to go out and date is to get to the

    point when it finnally happens to get a sense of

    appreciation. Its like dues paying. So many married people

    obviously have a problem with taking thier marriedness for

    granted, not just thier spouses. You can look at being

    married like inherited wealth, you just get, whether you

    deserve it or not; how many times do you see money like

    that appreciated? It is a mitsvah to get married, therefore

    everything and all the legwork necessary gets shelped in

    the general merit. I really try not to be so judgementally

    yenta minded to assume why some people take longer

    then others to find somebody. If I can, I help. If not, why

    chok n’ chinik?

  • Teferet- since when is getting married classified as an actual mitzvah?
    jewish mother – not sure what you mean by is it not better to be too careful than not careful enough? but I’ve seen a lot of people in a rush to get married just to get married. Many of them are presumably happy right now, several others are divorced within a year or two.
    The need and the power? what power?

  • B”H

    Laya,

    Youre right,

    I am saying strange stuff happens either good or bad. But yes, getting married is a mitsvah. The idea is to approach the mitsvah with determination and great effort. It appears a lot people just get married in a way of mitsvah or not with no apparent effort. Remember anything could happen to anybody, anytime. No way to know.

  • Your power.

    Look around. Look out the window. Do you not fear? You say “some are happy and some are divorced.” You are smart. You will be on the good side of the equation.

    People should not take things for granted and assume the phone will always ring just because right now one is adorable and Jewlicious.

    Who is immune from the present miserable state of affairs? Nobody is immune.

  • No, actually, I do not fear when I look out the window. Are you trying to imply that as soon as i turn 24, or 26 my jewliciousness will expire and no one will want me? I don’t think trying to scare people into getting married is a good plan. But thats’s just me. Thanks for the well meaning advice tho.

    and teferet, can you point me to a place in tanach or elsewhere that deems getting married an actual Mitzvah? Just cause it might be a good idea doesn’t make it a mitzvah, as far as I know.

  • B”H

    To answer the question.

    ” and teferet, can you point me to a place in tanach or elsewhere that deems getting married an actual Mitzvah?”

    One of the sources that come to mind is in Genesis Ch 2, Verse 24
    The Stone Chumash English,

    Therefore a Man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh.

    With more time I could give more sources for a subject with an exhaustive list of references. I would think there are several Torah based mitsvahs in that one.

    The mitsvah of marriage is mainly directed at the Man as I understand it.

  • B”H

    One way to read into what the Chumash is saying is that Women, especially jewish women, have a stronger correct instinct about getting Married then Man. Man is given strong command language with regard to Marriage. There is a verse in the Chumash that goes like this: Genesis, Chapter 3, verse 16.

    Yet youre craving shall be for youre husband.

    I left a lot of that sentence out. The rest of that context seems to punish but not command woman. There is a difference between command and punishment. What that is I don’t know off hand.

  • B”H

    Maybe a punishment is given to someone who should know better. A command is given to someone you wouldn’t expect to know what they are doing.

    Just some thoughts, ideas….pshat lach….

  • Singles think that by adhering to a “laundry-list” that they’ll avoid meeting the “wrong type” of person. But these laundry-lists are frequently influenced by the Hollywood media stereotype of what is considered attractive and desirable. And yes, religious singles get stuck in this mindset too. Women want men like Jeremy Piven or Zachary Braff or Jon Stewart, and men want a Jewish Angelina Jolie!

    I’m married with kids, and hope that I’m considered Jewlicious enough to be included in “Jewlicious — The Magazine,” as described in Esther’s comment #52. ck should post that great definition up at the top of the home page. Really.

  • But isn’t it interesting, Janice, that the expectations are so different the way you outlined them? I mean, Jewish women are much more likely to find a man like Piven, Braff or Stewart (where smart and funny are sexy) among the SJMs in their neighborhoods than the SJM’s are likely to find Jewish Angelina (who’s obviously sought-after for her contributions to intellectual discourse…) at Aish or on JDate. If singles are to get stuck in media stereotypes, doesn’t this speak volumes about the difference in what men and women are looking for, even post-evil-and-unrealistic media influence?

  • B”H

    Lets see if I can copy and paste with a proper word wrap that doesn’t break up the lines. After Chozer bechuva
    now for just about 20 years and almost half my life, I have picked up an abused word I hear from orthodox-frum people, especially FFB’s those born with it: NORMAL. Everytime I hear that word I feel like strangling who ever said it. Like a Darth Vader mind choke via Star Wars fame for thier lack of faith….
    Truthfully, it is simply not “NORMAL” to be jewish. Less then one percent of the world is, I think much less. Even in this fine Country USA. The US is great. Most americans are law abiding good people, jewish or not. If you wanted a nice, kind, generous “NORMAL” person with a good job and is a good listener you have a much, much better chance of finding a non-jewish person who fits that “Laundry List” I keep hearing about. I have no doubt there is awesome and extrodinary aspects to every jew I have met which transcend any definition of “NORMAL.” So yes, Chutspah, that dream ( nightmare) guy whom you dated is kind of sick, ok not “NORMAL”

    see #19, he is still jewish, like it or not. I know there is nothing to like there. I can’t explain youre sense of violation. Its like when I broke my leg rollerblading and couldn’t walk for more then 3 months, no one had the stupidity to tell me “don’t feel bad.” But like it or not, that same fool is a jew. Maybe a guy like that needs to be smacked up or woken up in some kind of way; I don’t know. I am not saying you should go back and get things restarted with him. Eventually he will learn, the hard or easy way. You don’t have to be the teacher. How many times have I heard women crying, “why can’t I meet anybody “NORMAL.?!?” I have heard them crying to me saying that and I try hard not to be nightmarish. I am not “NORMAL.” I am in an Israeli Motorcycle club. Another, not so “NORMAL” yenta approved thing I do. My nickname is “Rebele” I am not a Rabbi or whatever. But the guys will joke around and refer to me that way. One of the older guys in the club introduced me to this younger and impressively beautifull lady maybe in her late twenties, an Israeli with Yeminite background who lived in Canada for some time. She was telling me what a jerk this guy she whom she is currently married to. She wants a divorce but thinks that jews, like Catholics or something, just don’t get divorced or Rabbis just don’t let them. I told her that is an urban legend. I told her in a way it is a Mitsvah to for the guy to give her a Get. I advised her to talk to the local Rabbi in this city who married them and did thier Ketuba to arrange for the guy who she is married to now to sign the get. She is telling me she is being physically abused by the guy and his mother whom he lives with and they fight all the time and he is a serious substance abuser. She further tells me she had
    been married to a non-jewish guy before she met this other Israeli whom she is married to. Furthermore, she tells me that she had lived with two other non-jewish boyfriends before that. To add to that, she tells me these non-jewish men where so sweet and nice even when they broke up and got divorced. All the time as the story unfolded, she told me how she doesn’t believe in G-d and that Most of the jewish men she has known are jerks whereas everybody else is “NORMAL” and nice and good. I told her this I heard before “oto sepur.” I then introduced her to one of my friends in the club whom I have known since I was in a conservative hebrew school in the early 70’s. He talks the same way about jews and G-d. He is currently married to a Yenta jewish lady who gives him hell for that motorcycle riding he does and he fights with all the time. I was only in that hebrew school for a year. I went to a Reform hebrew school later. One time my friend and I go and visit another fellow class mate of that hebrew school recently whom I couldn’t recognize or remember. That guy married a Chinese lady and lives happily in a suburb in a nice house with a kids etc…The conclusion is the same as that Yemite girl, “with a non jew you can be happy. The jews make you miserable.”

    It was after that talk with that beautifull Israeli, Temini, that I realized how to put what is happening in clear thought. Jews are not “NORMAL” The special awesome quality to a jewish person is not always clearly spelled out . No doubt there is a physical taste and feeling to a Jew and the way we relate, not just a “spirtual out of this planet way, but it isn’t in terms that are easy to define. I am trying to bring this to clear expression as well as clear thought, but I am not sure I am doing that. I am trying and trying and trying….

  • You may be right, Esther, but I’d hate to generalize. Perhaps the men could weigh in on this one — do they really want a woman who is smart? Or is it really about how she looks? Lots of smart women have been told to “dumb-down” in order to find a partner, but have men? Would a religious man be interested in a religious woman physician, for example, for reasons other than she might be able to support him? That last question is one that has been posed to me by women physicians I know — they are told that they should expect to only meet guys who are not as smart as they are and to prepare to support them. Or else they’ll end up unmarried.

    I think it takes an exceptional man to appreciate a woman’s intellectual abilities, even if she is beautiful. Who are these men, anyway? And where are they? ‘Cuz Esther needs to meet you!

  • B”H

    Janice,

    Many Jew boys whom have been raised by highly

    educated parents that typify common jewish values seek to

    wed such a “Professional” as a doctor. Like who can be

    more of a Professional? A doctor in the family provides

    much bragging material to the family Yentas whether they

    be male, female in the family or married to the family. Why

    would you even question that? I have been on and off

    email pen palling with a Doctor lady from the other coast

    whom I met on Jdate some 6 years ago. She was in

    residense when we met on Jdate. Now she is an ER doc.

    When it comes to talking serious she gripes about mikvah

    use, shabat, one of my brothers whom I was sharing an

    appartment with, my beard and several other issues. Then

    we stop writting for awhile and look else where. If I were to

    introduce her to my Doctor Psycholigist Dad and Clinical

    Social worker Mom they would be in Kvell city.

  • I, too, am loath to generalize. But generally speaking…

    Seriously, I’m not looking for someone general anyway. 🙂

  • Janice, intelligence is just one component of many that I would think men would seek. I think there are many factors to consider including the background of the individual involved. I do believe looks are important to many at the start of relationships, with all the cultural baggage our society brings into that (being thin, being sexy, being cool, being well-to-do or with good prospects).

    However, I would think and hope that primarily, people want to be able to laugh with each other, have an easy conversation about most topics, find the other to be non-judgemental about one’s flaws, and realize or see those things that make the other person unique and therefore special. The problem is that often you don’t get to this point right away because there is a lot of “baggage” going into that first or second encounter. I mean, people reject each other after a first date quite often. I think there should be a two-date rule and the dates should be in different environments…just in case.

  • Four date rule. Talky talky. People should date but banish the word “date”. Just know everybody, and make up your mind. After that the snowball just naturally rolls downhill straight into the Chuppah. But:

    Watch out for problems from the parent generation. It’s all essentially none of their business.

    Modest size wedding, preferably off-season in Jerusalem, so only the very closest can get there, sweet parties afterward in the US in honor of the new couple. So religious, so romantic, so private, —- so cheap.

  • Janice,
    Does the fact that I’d only like to date somebody who’s an intellectual peer make me exceptional? I don’t think so, but I will say this, and it’s certainly not for the purpose of bragging (I always strive for modesty). I’m a recent med school graduate, about to start a PhD, I love Jeopardy and Trivial Pursuit, I’m one of the biggest music geeks you’ll ever meet, and generally speaking, I’m a big nerd (without being totally dorky). I couldn’t possibly imagine spending the rest of my life with somebody who doesn’t provide me with some mental stimulation. Physical attraction is important, but it’s not the be-all-end-all.

  • Oh Tobias, who are you kidding, you’re just seeking nice boobs.

  • Tobias, are you the one who said in an earlier comment that you’re a Kohen? I’m just not really able to surf through all of the comments again just now.

  • “Conserva-Girl, I hope you didn’t mean to imply that coffee-lovers and latte-loathers can’t find mutual ground(s) (sorry!) for discussion and relationships…”

    Actually, Esther, if two people disagree on such a basic thing, the relationship is probably not meant to be. 😉

  • Thanks for the support for my blog. My stories are all 96.004 percent true. They have boiling up inside me for 3 years. My transition from being a very sincere and spiritual ba’las tshuva back to my pre-Israel days has been one of both downward and upward growth. Long strange trip!

    Just a follow up note…the guy from Teaneck was one of the nicest, kindest and most honest men I have ever met on JDate. He is actually a Grandfather and very well-respected. He was sweet and thoughtful and intelligent. We dated for a long time (5 weeks is really long for me, I was engaged to Ex after 3) and if his “special order” request had not come on the first time we were intimate and after the “no wine” in the restaurant incident, I might not have been so shocked and disgusted. He later explained to me that he had an Asian girlfriend who taught him this fetish (this man’s Ex and daughters cover their hair) and apparently urine drinking is a very common practice in Asia and not considered freaky there. I asked my Internist and he said that fresh urine probably wouldn’t be harmful to ingest.

    I was still grossed out for a long time after that, but looking back now, after who I’ve dated since him, whatever lucky girl got him got a good catch! (He’s off all the Jewish sites, probably sticking to Asian women).

  • A few footnotes: 1) The Frumster guy who is also on Nerve.com is not the same guy as “The Peer”. The Frumster guy I refer to as “PhD48”. (
    2)I change all the profile names in my blog because I feel if people are paying for the online service, I don’t have the right to ruin their chances by using their real profile name).

    3) Here’s how the pee situation occurred:
    Me: “Wow, that was the best oral sex anybody has ever performed on me.”
    Him: (looking up with proud smile) “Thanks, do you have to go to the bathroom?”
    Me: “Yeah, how did you know?”
    Him: “‘Cause you can go in my mouth if you want”
    Me: “WWWHHHAAAT!!!!! Get your pants on and get the fuck out of here right now, Peer (insert real name here)! You wouldn’t let me order the fuckin’ non-kosher Pinot Grigio at Chili’s and now you want to drink my pee????? You are a worse hypocrite than my fucking crazy Ex!!!!”
    Him: “Sorry, I’m going, I’ll call you, don’t knock things until you try them, don’t be mad….”

  • That’s a charming story, Chutzpah. Muffti thinks you were a little harsh about the whole thing. A) He didn’t demand you pee in his mouth, merely offered. B) He did just give you the ‘best oral sex’ of your life. C) While peeing in his mouth is gross, the grossness is really his, not your so to speak (i.e. he wasn’t trying to pee in your mouth.)

    Having said all that, YUCK!

  • I’ve just revisited this discussion and have to admit that I’m fascinated and amazed.

    But, YUCK!

  • I have to admit, I was thinking about this story today too. Way more than I should have been. I try to be open-minded, but I’m going to add mine to the chorus of “YUCK”s.

  • Imagine after the marriage.

    INT. LIVING ROOM – AFTERNOON

    The sun is beginning its langurous descent into night. Inside the Chutzpadiks home, Chutzpah and Nice Guy are sitting in the living room, Sunday New York Times sections strewn about, along with some orange peels and a fully eaten yogurt container. Chutzpah sighs and looks up from the Society pages. Idan Reichel plays softly in the background.

    CHUTZPAH
    (flirtatious)
    Honey, I need to go.

    NICE GUY
    (looking up lovingly)
    Hmmmm?

    CHUTZPAH
    (suggestively with her eyes)
    I thought maybe I could, you know, skip getting up to walk to the bathroom.

    NICE GUY
    (nonchalant)
    Sure sweetie, just let me finish my orange.

  • I also enjoy daydreaming about after the marriage. Here’s my scenerio:

    Me: Honey, I found a blood spot in the last egg, do you still want an omelet?

    Him: No thanks dear, you know that wouldn’t be Kosher.

    Me: Honey, I found a bloodspot on my toiletpaper, do you still want your tea?

    (Sorry, this hasn’t been easy on me.)

  • Haha haha haha hhaha haha—ew ew ew. Ok, Chutzpah, I think that is what gets me as well: the seemingly hypocritical nature of it. I mean, I’m not sure that urine is treif, maybe it isn’t, maybe I missed that part (it’s probably in the section about leprousy or skin rot or something). Whatever anyone wants to do in their own homes with consenting adults is none of my business, but the seeming hypocracy sends me up a wall. Though, I suppose, when was he supposed to ask about it, and when would you have preferred he ask: before or after the “best oral sex of your life?”

  • Look, if he had let me have the Pinot Grigio at Chili’s he could’ve asked me anything he wanted and I wouldn’t have cared!

    However, I do strongly believe that fetishes should only come out of the closet after a long-term plain vanilla sexual relationship has been established.

  • I’m sorry, but along with the pee-in-my-mouth drama, I’m having trouble with the Chili’s part? Can’t the guy take you out to something a little more creative?

    (With apologies to all those who have taken their JDates to Chili’s)

  • Regarding men preferring beauty over brains (or at least not so many brains), I completely agree. I just put myself on dating hiatus for a few months but when my profile goes back up I have already decided that my profession will be wiped out of my profile and my standard answer to what I do for a living will be “I work in a ____’s office” so that the assumption will be that I am a nice, harmless administrative assistant of some type and not an actual professional. Not only does this reduce the intimidation factor, but it is a good way of dodging the tendency to stereotype people based on their professions as well (lawyers are crooked/money-hungry, accountants are boring, professors are pompous ivy-tower dwellers, psychiatrists are this, insurance agents are that and so on).

    Yes indeedy, I am just a harmless little female. That is what I will be selling.

    It might not help, but then, putting it out there has not helped either. And varying one’s strategy every so often makes one feel that one is actually doing something constructive and is being proactive toward meeting The One. Of course, nothing works really, but a little bit of mind games go a long way in keeping desperation at bay.

    And, of course, I am sick of the jabs at my profession. Really, really sick of them. Even if I were married I would probably stop telling people.

  • Daphna, there are actually dating professionals who tell daters not to talk about what they do for a living, since a person’s profession is not supposed to be a fair measure of who that person is. But I don’t buy it. How am I supposed to talk about who I am without mentioning that I’m a writer? It’s never been just a profession to me–it’s part of who I am and how I look at life.

    Of course, online dating’s a whole different ball game, as this and other of my posts confirm. It’s like pitching a tv show: first you have to get the meeting, then you win them over, and then the network decides if they want you and you ponder the terms of the offer. If it’s not an acceptable offer, you pass and get another meeting with another network. If it helps you feel like you’re being constructive, I say you go girl. It’s more than others of us are able to feel…

  • B”H

    Wow, I am caught up with this issue line. Of, course, it seems the story about the datee pee story gets more agonizing detail.

    Chutspah, you seemed to deal with that one right. The line was drawn. This fetish is an issur, beyond just trayf. I hoped you appreciate this chance to vent this experience out. It would appear you are in need of that.
    What I realize is that in frumster, there is severe limitations for venting-whining. One way Frumster controls the expression of tension is preventing same sex emailing even amongst paid members.I am assuming they do the same for women as men, but I don’t know, haven’t asked anybody there yet.

  • B”H

    Another way to look at what is going on through the datee pee debacle is this: I regard the intimate relations of a Man and Woman to be the Holy of Holies; The place the Cohen Godol is on Yom Kipur. A physical expression of the Bait Hamikdash Kadshay Kadoshim. Say there is the magnificent Holy Temple in all its glory. Everybody in the Temple has done thier part to make everything right according to the letter. Everybody is looking forward to Yom Kipur. The great and awesome day arives. The Cohen Gadol is going into the Holy of Holies. Then he goes into the room where nobody else could see him. A bunch of the lower ranking Cohen guys away from the Holy of Holies smell something funny just after the Cohen Gadol disappears from sight. One of the Cohen guys dare peek into the room. What does he see? The Cohen Godol, on Yom Kipur, munching on a hot McDonalds Cheeseburger.

  • TheMiddle,
    After only eating Kosher Pizza & Kosher Chinese for 14 years, my first time in a Chili’s (which wasn’t around in my pre-kosher years) was like a trip to Disneyland. He offered to take me to Sushi Metsuyan in Teaneck, but I didn’t want to see all of you there!

  • Middle,
    That question is what created this discussion thread in the first place: How do we classify ourselves?

    I would say Judiasm is hardwired into my system, but I have a lot of bugs when trying to run the Orthodox software on it. I have “come out of the closet” to all of my friends and coworkers and most importantly, to my children, who are in Right Wing Yeshiva, that I have turned in my “frum license” so that I am not leading a double life. I would say my “observances” are more in line with JTS Egalitarian Conservative platform (which is how I was raised) rather than the “Neve Yerusaylaim” type observance I took on.

    I have questions/issues with every Jewish denomination and sub-category, which leads me to a basic “do the best you can do without making yourself nuts” bottom-line.

  • 1) I definately take pride in my “weirdness” which makes me a “creature unlike any other” to quote “The Rules”.

    2) I don’t view my life as a wreck, it’s an adventure. I always keep in mind that “freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”.

    3. I absolutely take personal responsibilty for my own decisions, and I don’t blame G-d or Judiasm. And I hold no animous toward the Brain-washing Mind Snatchers in Israel who pray on misguided youths either.

    4. Don’t be so sure I’m white.

    5. The category on “JDate” for “married but not dead” is “separated”, as in “my wife is in the bathroom and I’m separated from her in the computer room.”

  • Herewith some l’esprit d’escalier re Daphna (#97) on beauty v. brains: why does the question get posed as zero-sum, one or the other?

    It seems something of a self-serving excuse to say, ‘the reason I’m not more successful with guys
    is, I’m too smart (and will conceal that as best I can the next time).’ Not to impute that to you– but women who reach that conclusion likely aren’t nearly as smart as the lethal level of intelligence they attribute to themselves.

    Anyway, it’s really not that hard, is it? There’s got to be a baseline of chemistry, and a baseline of comparable intelligence/verbal skills. Can’t have one without the other.

    Daphna, are you an attorney? Is that the shameful, much-mocked profession you refer to?

  • Haaaaaa hahaha hahaha ha! Tom, are you an attorney?

    We on Jewlicious hereby approve of attorneys, although we prefer when they represent us in record-breaking M&A deals where we’re the acquirer, not in divorces or civil litigation.

  • “I’m too smart”
    “women who reach that conclusion aren’t nearly as smart as the lethal level of intelligence they attribute to themselves.”

    I think there are people who haven’t met their intellectual matches yet. And I think that smart women raise a lot of issues for certain men; they find it threatening or intimidating or something. It’s like the sense of humor thing: everyone says they want one in a partner, but most aren’t looking for banter (someone who can take the humor and also dish it right back)–what they really want is someone who finds them funny.

    Dating is always one big ego trip until it settles into relationship mode and people can start putting aside their egoes and begin to focus on building something together. At least, so I’ve read.

    Chemistry, verbal…sounds like the SATs. Thank the Maker there’s no math section. I’m screwed enough as it is.

  • Middleman– depends on which client you ask…

    Hell, I should be billing this time to, I don’t know, somebody.

    If Daphna’s (a) a lawyer and (b) highly single– well, I feel her pain, believe me…

    Hey, I can relate to all those single lawyers out there. I feel your pain, believe me….

  • It ain’t about whether the chick is too smart – SHE’S JEWISH, FOR GOD’S SAKE! It’s about whether she’s IN YOUR FACE with all of her incessant HAVING TO BE SMART ALL THE TIME, when, okay, she’s NOT THAT SMART, AFTER ALL, cuz EVERYONE KNOWS BOYS IS SMARTER THAN GURLS!

    It’s the overbearing, obnoxious aspect of some of my beloved, beloved Jewish sisters, that drives men into the arms of well, Asian chicks (see, this blog is just one big cyber loop!)….

    Esther: Just bat your eyes, girl. OR MOVE out of town, where you don’t have to walk around with the huge chip on your shoulder….And Chutzpah. You are so white it’s not even funny. I dunno. 39 and and SO OUT THERE!

    Yes, Jsirpicco is back, and this time HE’S MAD AS HELL AND HE’S NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE…CAN’T anyone just get a freaking LIFE?

  • So, if I follow jsirpicco: Jewish chicks who will hit you over the head with a 2×4 about how smart they are, but Asian chicks are smart but keep their mouths shut.

    No wonder I check out this site instead of doing work. You just won’t find this stuff anywhere else….

  • One correction, Tom: no self-respecting Jewish chicks would use a 2×4 to knock some sense into a suitor. We prefer lead pipes (in the library with Colonel Mustard), because they don’t leave splinters.

  • See? There you go Esther….except here’s how you do this one: We do it with a lead pipe…now, Tom, What’s the name of that game with all the clues and such? Do you remember?

  • Jsirpicco, you once remarked you had narrowly escaped into marriage and parenthood. If not impertinent, I am wondering how. You seem pretty cheerful about the results. Were you saved by the bell? Or did you do something to save yourself? Just the grace of G-d? If you had the ear of one of the big philanthropists, what programs would you recommend?

  • Okay JM – in a moment of seriousness: Jsirpicco DECIDED TO GET SERIOUS AND RESPONSIBLE ABOUT LIFE! (The details of the fact that I went to Yeshiva and buckled down and stopped thinking hmmm…which of the THOUSAND options for life, women, etc. do I want, are less important…)

    And then Hashem had to beat the pants off me till my character traits were as sterling as you see on this blog 🙂 Actually, it was more that HE had to make DARN sure I would ACTUALLY APPRECIATE the gift of a wife when it was finally presented to me…and so there are many details there…

    The bottom line: GROWTH. SELF GROWTH. HARD, HARD SELF GROWTH. Instead of always rejecting everyone else and worrying about what everyone else is or is not…it came down to can Jsirpicco be the best Jsirpicco he can be!

    Ya gotta stand for something – that’s the guy’s duty. Something good, hopefully. And the girls gotta figure out what in the world would make them happy already, and then be open to accepting something like that. And then, in marriage, it helps to keep yourself in line…treat each other well and often in bed…take out the trash…dont’ let fights escalate…

    Jsirpicco talks a lot, I know….I must rest now.

  • No, help me out, jsirpicco….

    Esther– are you trying to tell me that good, lefty Jewish chicks resort to something as environmentally-harmful as lead? Oy!….

  • (Quick comment off-topic: anyone wanting to improve their love life should grab a copy of Luciana Souza, ‘Duos II’ (Sunnyside), released tomorrow, 5/24. That CD, a bottle of chianti, and long-stem candles… and you’re off to the races, people.

    Sorry for the plug.)

  • “Lefty” women used to intrigued men. In the 1950’s. It was picquant, stimulating, strange, new. A woman who was non-traditional. Not just a wife and mother. Willing to work for pay outside the home, (extremely convenient). More permissive in general. Fun! I forget who was president at that time. Maybe Truman. Oy. People have an understandable but lamentable tendency to fight the last war. Lefty got old. It got old before I did. We really have to be a little less conformist in our imaginary non-conformity. Real originality is more like this jsirpicco.

    How do you deal with the kids screaming, jsirpicco?

    And, what programs would you discuss with a philanthropist? Sort of a Birth-RATE Israel? How to structure it?

  • JM- wait are you disagreeing or praising me? I’m totally original in my non-original, conforming non-conformity!

    Screaming kids? I try not to scream back. Or I take a walk, or make a joke or ride it out or issue a warning with voiced raised: I AM ABOUT TO GET ANGRY! or just banish them to their room when it gets to be too much…but actually Jsirpicco is very patient, most of the time. His wife is, too. KAH my kids are good kids so far.

  • Praising.

    Now about the program. Unlimited funds. What would you do if you were the CEO? Free weddings at his nice high-floor office in mid-town Manhattan with terrace, food, whole bit? A free lending library of scrumptious wedding gowns and tuxes? A rabbi on staff, no fee? A baby gift certificate at the stores that sell infant gear? A hefty subsidy to the Jewish schools? Free confidential counseling both before the wedding and any time after it? Shakshuka cooking classes?

  • 1. Hefty subsidy to Jewish schools.

    2. Improved quality of education at said Jewish schools.

  • If I had unlimted funds, I would PAY PEOPLE to go a good, content, based trip to Israel – not just free trips with birthright – but actually pay them $1500 or something like that – to participate in a 2, 3 or 4 week stint in Israel that would combine the touring, the fun, of course, but also MAJOR JEWISH CONTENT on major topics, including relationships. Ages: post-college till 35 (after that, oy vey – it’s harder, so I dunno….gotta be a certain age where people are READY to settle down….)

    Then I’d offer $5000 wedding gift to any (non-ffb) Jewish couple that gets married; and $5000 baby subsidy like they do in Israel (only it’s less per kid)….

    But you know, and Jsirpicco knows, that it’s not a trip or a program – it’s gotta be SOCIETAL somehow, changing the way society looks at getting married. How do you bore into the thick skulls and hard hearts of singles out there who WANT EVERYTHING, NOW, AND PERFECT, or else it’s just back to their apt. on West End, their dumb electronic stuff, their blogs, emails, movies, gyms, worries, volunteering (yeah, right – 5 hours a year?)…and stupid, stupid jobs. And free sex, depending on where you are on the frumster classification!

    In short, I would MAKE IT WORTH PEOPLE’S WHILE, SOMEHOW, TO get their act together so they would choose to get married.

  • Extremely useful remarks!
    Do you mean separate trips for women and men or mixed trips? Age group 27 to 36. These people do not always get a month vacation from work. But Maybe 2, or 3, weeks. But not a “singles” thing of which there are many already. Maybe it should be single-sex to prevent that atmosphere?

  • IMHO it needs to be mixed! (Depending again, on the market, but I’m talking not ffbs right now)…Aish LA and NYC as far as I know, have good trips like that – 12 days or so…okay so something like that…Livnot is 3 weeks…it’s got to be long enough to make it stick.

    Why, you have money?

  • No JM, I don’t think Jsirpicco is on track at all. People don’t date or spend time in Israel because of subsidies. The Birthright trips are different because they offer an easy-to-do adventure that is free. You can’t buy people, and anybody who does the arithmatic knows that $5000 subsidies on babies are immaterial in the long run.

    The problem is education. It’s too expensive for most Jewish families and it requires a level of commitment that is hard to find and support over time. The other problem is that in my experience, and I am very knowledgeable about this topic in my humble opinion, most Jewish institutions offer a decent but unexceptional education. In some cases, it can be inferior even though you have the benefit of Jewish surroundings and friends.

    If a Jewish school wants to charge the same as a typical private school – which is what they mostly do these days – they have to be competitive with those private schools, not to mention the best public schools around. This can be challenging because they try not to restrict students who can apply since the premise is that any Jewish student should be entitled to come to learn within the means of the parents. As a result, you get a mixed bag of students. Also, you often get teachers who are could be better. This is true of any school, but for a variety of reasons, and I’m convinced small school size is among them, you tend to get people who stay on forever, even if they are mediocre. Mediocrity breeds more mediocrity and affects the children, not to mention the desire of parents to send them there.

    Jewish schools have to provide a top quality secular education, with a high value Jewish education. They need to think like private schools, not like Jewish private schools. They need to consider that they are marketing themselves no less than their competition, and in fact have to offer something more. It’s not enough to get by on “we’re a Jewish school.”

  • Arithmetic. And ck, am I ever going to be able to post or edit again?

  • But…. you are saying this kind of trip exists already; you mention a few. So, what to do about the people the trips are currently not reaching?

    Your point that religious awareness produces marriage is of course quite right. But there are too many unmarried Orthodox, so that is that shaky?

    Yes, the soil of Israel puts marriage into people’s hearts.

    So, you don’t think it is the mechanics and expense of the wedding itself that is an obstacle?

    Do you think it is the PARENTS? The feeling that the new couple must make no waves in the existing family, which is impossible? That the bride must be a clone for Mama, which is impossible, as it is a different time now? That the girl’s parents must think the groom is fancy enough to justify all the enrichments they have put into their highly developed daughter, which is impossible?

    EVEN THE TOPIC ITSELF is taboo, poisonous. It seems to stab so many people’s notions in the heart, of what is a good world, and what is best for their children. No one on this blog is comfortable with this problem except TM and Jserpicco. The wounded are gasping their last all over the street, aging into reproductive oblivion, both sexes, and The Problem gets no press.

    Positivism works, so I should not rant, which is too easy. What would address this as beautifully and successfully as Birthright Israel? THAT works oh boy.

    Is being single the atheism of the chicken?

  • You are right TM. But is “Jewish Education” as currently defined important anyway?? Maybe you can raise fine, thoroughly Jewish kids who go to a public school, wear tzitzit under their T shirts, bring brown bag kosher lunches, say a bracha before munching them, and study Jewishly every day after school? There usually is an after-school program in place anyway, right now, in many families’ lives. If this after-school program offered a half hour of Jewish instruction starting in the first grade, and the parents were serious about their own Jewishness, (ongoing classes structurally linked to the after-school program) I bet that would be enough to continue our race. Gee whiz, we have survived worse. This would produce Hebrew-prayer literate, Tehillim-saying, Tanach-reading Jews, if it continued implacably, a half hour a day, all the way through high school. It might not produce Daf-Yomi studying, Gemara-knowledgeable Jews. That is another, higher level, ok. But gee whiz, it wouldn’t cost $12,000 a year. As for the tzitzit, get used to it, man. It’s my culture, man. Diversity. With the occasional karate class if necessary.

    Maybe that is a good program for the philanthropist. Would you guys use it?

    The something ineffable that makes people like TM and Jsirpicco actually decide on somebody, and do it legal, has not yet been elucidated. What do these men have the others don’t? Don’t tell me their wives wear better makeup, are thinner, or are better dancers and chatters than the single women. Or, maybe there is a unique quality to these two women? What?

  • tm, if you email me, i’ll send you the link to post/edit…there’s no login link from the main page right now, and I know ck’s tres busy…

  • If Jewish education is the secret to solving the shidduch crisis, call me an illustration of the system’s failure. Getting married isn’t the endgame, although I do understand the biological imperative. Finding the right person doesn’t happen that easily, but I happen to think that when it does, it will have been worth the wait. Feel free to disagree. Because I know some of you do…

  • Yes, yes. Esther, what would you recommend to the Philanthropist, funds unlimited? Did you like my free wedding scenario? Or is that not the point? Would you send your own kid to a nice public school and use a Jewish after-school program? Would that do the job, produce the kind of kid you would want to raise, in your opinion?

  • I am not brushing past the issue of finding the right person. I was wondering if there are external, environmental factors that are holding family formation back. Most people are neither fools nor saints. If marrying leads to child-bearing, and child-bearing leads to crushing Jewish school bills .. or wild wedding expenses… And, a woman hates to get stuck with a man who wants out later because the whole thing is more than his salary can float. I am trying to resurrect the simple Jew, ordinary people.

  • B”H

    More Frumster funnies:

    From Rodin (ID 16920)

    What Shomer Mitzvot means to me:

    I have a complex Jewish identity… probably best defined as postmodern Orthodox neo-Hasidic.

    From ketzeleh (ID 20712)

    A good heart is essential and a sense of humor is a must. I’d like to meet someone who is interested in venturing out into the city, but also willing to sit back watch a movie or Law and Order reruns on TV. Smarts and height are also a major plus. I don’t think much of the laundry list, however, since often you can meet someone who has the list, but belongs in the laundry

  • JM, not to jump all over you, but you keep intimating that all the people who are single today are such because they’ve chosen to be. To an extent this is true: I’ve chosen not to marry someone I don’t love.

    I’d love a free wedding, but I’m not one of those people who’s been dreaming of a fancy wedding my whole life–I’d be happy to apply those funds toward my family’s future. And I’d need them, if I wanted to pay for dayschool education.

    And if I had unlimited funds and the emotional/moral support of the Jewish community, I’d probably start looking into finding an appropriate sperm donor sometime in the next year or two. While we’re listing our pipe dreams, I’d like my own sitcom on network TV (or Comedy Central). And a pony.

  • Esther should keep on keepin’ on. Stick to those standards, whatever the pressures (family, community, etc.)– understanding there’s a short-term price to be paid in aloneness… It’s healthier to take whatever’s there, because after all most people are middling? Don’t think so.

    And look on the bright side: Jewish singles have a much easier time of it than their gentile counterparts.

  • One more idea: instead of funding weddings, subsidize large-scale singles events/trips with active icebreaker components. I might want to try a singles cruise/trip to Club Med/weekend retreat/Israel mission, but I could never afford it. My other idea, enforcing therapy for all single Jewish men over 30, may not work because, as people keep telling me, “the lightbulb has to want to change.”

  • B”H

    As of 5-9-05:

    Chasidisha Men, US 341
    ” Women, US 158

    black hat Men, US 478
    ” women,US 357

    Modern Orth. machmer Men, US 1400
    women, 1264

    Modern Orth,liberal, Men,US 1899
    “women, US 1836

    Yeshivaih, Modern Orth, men us 276
    women 184

    Sephardic Traditional US Men 101
    women” 56

    shomer mitsvot us men 252
    ” women “” 204

    carlebachian us men 92
    us women 55

    traditional and growing, us, men514
    women 627

    This is a sample I took of People on frumster in a certain age group in US only. I just did this search to find out if what I suspected was right; that there are more Men there then women. That appears to be so, with some exception. The general theme is the more

    “religious” or “frum” or “right” wing, the more men numerically appear then Women. It would appear that Women may have to turn away much more men then the reverse. I doubt that surprises anybody. So many women put in statements in thier profile about age preference and many other factors that excludes much, much more then Men do. I can not totally fathom why all that is. However, these factors do color the scene there.

    Here is my “score” on frumster showing the intensity of

    my correspondense.

    You have sent 233 messages to 138 members, and

    received 123 messages from 71 members, since

    joining Frumster

  • Tom, why do gentile singles have it tougher?

    Tom and Esther, JM may be simplifying things to a degree, but she is right that not everything is perfect between the married couple from the beginning. That’s a Hollywood or romance novel fantasy. What marriage gives two people is an opportunity to grow together, because we are all constantly changing only you do your changing with another person. So if I understand JM’s point, it is that the key is to find somebody who is good and who is close to what your heart desires, but isn’t necessarily perfect in terms of what you seek. You then grow together.

    Another thing to be said for JM’s simplified view of things is that our society does suffer a 50% divorce rate. Surely, this indicates there’s something wrong with the way many people choose their partners and feel bound to them.

  • Is the reason for the divorces always that it was the wrong person in the first place? Maybe it is that we live in an anti-marriage environment and the relationship succumbed to all the negative factors endlessly bombarding it. I know people who are illegitimate. No father. Please do not do that to anybody!! Please. It is so mean. YOU did not have that burden and you can’t begin to imagine how much it hurts. And it is incurable, life-long. Our men just cannot be so lame that not one of them is worth making shakshuka for. People IMHO should marry much too early, and grow together. There can only be one genius in a family, Esther, and you are it, so look from a different angle. Of course you can have a pony.

  • Middleman, you’re very sensible. Does this explain your moniker?

    There is something amiss when the divorce rate is that high. Part of the reason, perhaps: poor choices. It’s anecdotal, but I know formerly-married couples whose members seemed ill-matched from the outset.

    And yes, the Hollywood stuff is silly. It’s all work, even the sex part, which I’d venture most people think will always be there… except when kids or job loss or other life stuff intrudes. Maybe that also partly explains divorce. People don’t appreciate the need for constant effort.

    (Not that I’d know, mind you.)

    Why are Jewish singles better off? Marriage-oriented, cultural/community infrastructure and support. The Torah’s emphasis on fruitfulness and multiplication. Most of all, antediluvian DNA– shared genetic material– coupled with common cultural frame of reference. A Jewish guy is looking for a Jewish woman who’s likely similar to the women he grew up around. Yeah, that might prompt an instinct to rebel, but I’ll bet it promotes marriage in the long run.

    To contrast with gentiles: I share a religion with Brazilians, Ivoirians, Poles, Filipinos, Italians, etc., so there’s lots of choice. But the cultural factors vary so much from culture to culture within our (American) society. Jews have the head start of lots of common ground culturally– a huge advantage, esp. when it’s made a priority to marry within the faith.

    A personal example: I once dated– how’s this for exotic?– a woman who was 100% Luxembourgeois. Now, what do I know about Luxembourg? Does it even have a cuisine? The only thing vaguely related that I could come up with was the Schlieffen Plan, and that didn’t go over very well….

  • Yes! But are parents too sensitive to the coming of the new child-in-law? He or she will inevitably be different from them, because of all the micro-distinctions within Jewishness. Our good children do not want to upset their parents, so they figure, unconsciously, that staying single will upset their parents just a little bit less than bringing in Some Wierd Stranger. Is that a factor?? But parents have to be willing to take a back seat to the new world. Every marriage is a new world! We must not wait to meet someone who will impress our parents – “who spent all that mooooney on our fancy education, so he better be worthy of you”.

  • Esther, your proposal of a birthright – type program for people aged 27 to 36 to encourage marrying is interesting. How to prevent that miserable on-trial, embarrassed feeling? Or, should we just have men-only trips, so the light bulb will want to change? They could be paid for going. We could call it Birth RATE Israel. What do you think?

  • I chose “The Middle” on a whim, but I’ve kept it because both ends of the political spectrum keep getting pissed off at me. And sensible? To some degree, very. But I don’t always live my life that way.

    I hear ya about the problem gentile singles have, and it makes sense to some degree. But then again, you may share Christmas holidays, for example, while I may share Passover. I don’t disagree that we, as Jews, are closer to each other in the sense that we have a distinct culture and set of traditions. But those ties seem to be breaking down on some levels, and then you also have the numbers problem in that the pool of available people is smaller, by far.

  • B”H

    The posts are coming in real late it seems, like a day after they were written according to the time mark.

  • You want to ‘change the light bulb’? Go out and get yourself a little black dress. That should do the trick. If he doesn’t respond to that, toss him back into the water.

  • People I have surpassed: Edgar Bronfman, Natalie Portman, Nice Jewish Girl, and the Muffti. Next stop, Popeland!

    birthrate israel is a good idea. But men-only trips miss the boat. The point is to get men and women to interact. Men, in a group of men, see no reason to change.

    Tom, the little black dress is surprisingly ineffective. Must be the exceedingly large population of dolts in the NY area.

  • Do the men agree? Should men get together by themselves to discuss marrying?

  • No. Men should get together to hunt or play basketball. Men are not women, as you point out correctly all the time, and the discussion of marriage usually involves, uh, sarcasm. Listen to Tom’s black dress idea.

  • So what motivates the changed light bulb to actually religiously and legally marry the aforementioned black dress?

  • The riddle of the century: To find out, tune into my column, every other week in the Jewish Week, or Jdaters Anonymous, or any other of my writing as we endlessly explore this question.

    Or, I could quote Bonnie Raitt lyrics at ya: “I can’t make you love me, if you don’t. You can’t make your heart feel something it won’t.” But that would be too cheesy.

  • B”H

    I hope this coment gets in tune with the issue this time. With regards to the question of the level of “mixing” that should go on in a birthrite trip. In my view, it depends. If you got a crew that appreciates the tsnius of a men or women only group, then they should do that way. Most jews who are relevent to the birthrite age and focus were not educated to the point of appreciating such refinements. So if you have a group of people mixing anyway no matter what, because they will anyway, its great to just get a chance to be together and hook up with each other rather then something else…A lot of leaders, Rabbis, Rebetsins, Rabineets wouldn’t want to lead a mixed group anyway. Then you have others that will.

  • B”H

    Again, with regards to a birthrite or birthrite like adventure a lot depends of the focus. If the scope is accomadating matchmaking for an older group, it would be a harder sell as such. The 25+ age is in the financially independant stage. Those people would be out of focus for the kind of thinking that went into the birthrite concept as far as I would know.

  • Wow. JM rocks! (I say that because she appears to agree with me.) What gets men to marry? Growing awareness of one’s incompetence at such basic life tasks as dealing with a bad day in the emptiness of one’s own apartment. Sense of one’s own mortality. The creeping conviction that the twentysomething hotties aren’t enamored of you and your receding hairline and your growing belly any longer. The unthinkable prospect of bad food, forever. It’s a practical calculation (or so I’m told).

    Esther et al., the little blue dress thought was prompted by the belief that it’s easy to overthink this stuff. (Take it from me, I do it all the time.) The hardest thing is to ignore the doubts, remain steadfastly convinced of your own appeal, and go for it, leading with your heart.

    (And if you figure out how to do all that, let me know, OK?)

  • Tom, I figure that out, and I’ll tell you all about it. Right after I tell Oprah and Katie & Matt.

    (PS: Take that Pope! I opened up a can of commenting whupp-ass on your beneficent butt!)

  • And I read TWO ENTIRE BOOKS and all I get is 6 comments? Clearly, I suck.

  • B”H

    I have to something to see what has happened here.

  • B”H

    I mean I have to put something to see what has happened here. Its like cant get something for nothing. I look into the comment list and find a certain amount of coments. Then I add one myself and I see something like 10 others that I didn’t find untill I made that further coment. I have to get used to this if I want to hang here.

  • B”H

    This is the perfect subject for me to go off on. I certainly have what to say about it. Frumster and internet matchmaking that is a hottie for me. I do appreciate the effort taken to present the subject and open it up to the wild world of internet post; is that what a blog is? It seems so, but the word “Blog” is not cemented into my lexicon yet.

  • OK, NOW I have to put my 5 cents in.

    Jewish Mother: I don’t know what the halaka is on an unmarried Jewish woman having a child with a sperm donor, but there are alot of gorgeous, intelligent and financially independent unmarried Jewish women out there who if they don’t have children soon, may never. There is no reason why they shouldn’t be raising healthy Jewish children on their own and it’s nobody’s business where they got the sperm or how it got in there.

    Those children would be much better off than mine, who have to schlep back and forth between Ex and Myself. Instead of utilizing a sperm donor, I foolishly took a leave of absence after my second year of LAW SCHOOL and clerking in a PARK AVE. LAW FIRM, after 4 years at AN IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE to learn Torah in Israel. I was in a frenzy to beat my biological clock and in panic that no man would ever love me because I had too many BRAINS. I then proceeded to married BENEATH me to a man who had NO brains, no education and no career aspirations but who was really “spiritual”. Apparently, I left my BRAINS at NEVE. I also found anything with a penis willing to marry me fast highly attractive after being SHOMER NEGIAH for 3 years at that point.(Believe it or not!)

    He was very sincere in his desire to be ORTHODOX and to have me work a full-time job & do all the housekeeping, cooking and baby-making while he went out TO LEARN. And let me just say, it was very important that he knew just exactly what to do in case a jug got broken in the middle of the street by an Ox when he didn’t know how to be home with me if I was sick with a flu and two babies 17 months apart .

    Further, Jserpicco: 3 weeks at Livnot is not enough to make it stick. All the crazy glue and “ya na nays” in the world aren’t gonna make it stick after being an Agunah for two years with very little help from the Rabbis. Yeah, I’m making up for a lot of lost time during those two year now and I hope I’ll get lucky at the 25th Reunion. And Yeah, I’m a weird white woman with issues, and to make it worse, an Attorney.

    Ester, go make a baby, but please be careful not to take Oprah’s name in vain.

  • Chutzpah, have I mentioned I enjoy reading your posts a great deal?

    Too bad you weren’t here when I was posting all those comments about Orthodox Jewish men going to yeshiva and being subsidized while their wives work. Boy did I get an earful.

  • Thanks, I’m only blogging a month, are they archived? This is the best time-wasting hobby I’ve ever had, if you don’t count my job, which I get paid for. Here’s the bottom-line on ba’al tshuvas, and hey, some of my best friends are ba’al tshuvas. The women do it because they want to have babies and the men do it because they don’t want to work. There is no other reasons why otherwise sane people would commit themselves to a lifetime of really bad pizza.

  • I can’t believe Chutzpah just told me to go have a baby.

    Poor ck. All that reading and nothing to show for it? Sounds kind of like law school. Without ck, there’d be no jewlicious, and therefore no comments at all. So, each comment is really a comment for ck. Jeebus. Who knew Sephardim had such tender egoes?

  • Okay Chutzpah…you just PROVED MY POINT THAT GURLS SURE IS DUMB AND DUMBERER, because the way I see it, it’s like this:

    You hooked into Neve for whatever reason – I don’t know what it was in your upbringing, but you hooked into Neve –and believe I know the scene there, and actually it IS ONE OF THE FEW PURELY GOOD PLACES ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SO THERE — and bought into everything….

    And then, you married a Frummed out JERK, who anyone with a brain in his head could see was an idiot and loser – except for you, because you were HORNY??>??? Three years of Shomer Negiah, and YAAAAAAHHHHHH Okay, yeah, *pant* *pant* I’ll take you…oh I’m so happy we’re engaged after 3 dates, yeah!

    And of course your mother was freaking…cuz you ain’t modern orthodox by birth, you’re one of Jsirpicco’s sisters of return…but be that as it may…

    So you marry an idiot…AND I GUARANTEE YOU, that there were Rabbis and Rebbetzins and Neve who told you DON’T DO IT…. HAS TO BE, cuz I know how that place looks, and either one of two things, my sister: Either, you didn’t listen, or the two of you – meaning you’re weird ex husband (who your’e now blaming for all baalei teshuva) and you –fooled the administration…or…YOU WERE BOTH SO WEIRD THAT THEY DECIDED TO LET YOU STEW IN YOUR OWN JUICES.>..

    My point is…you don’t have anyone to blame but yourself at this point. Not the religion. Not Neve. Not your ex. Your CHOSE HIM!!!!

    And so now, actually, Jsirpicco feels bad for you. It’s sad. It’s tragic. It’s tragic to be 39 and moving between size 14 and size 4, still horny, looking to hook up at your 25th High School reunion, or with Old guys or Young guys who will give you oral? That’s sad. Sad in a way that yeah, my heart goes out to you.

    Meanwhile…Umm No, Esther, DON’T GO HAVE A BABY…on your own. Duh! That will guarantee that you will never get married….

    One thing that would help, probably, is if you GOT OFF THIS BLOG@!!! 🙂 We’re all addicted at this point….

    Esther – I may even have a guy for you…he’s on frumster. Cool guy. Nice. Wants to get married. The whole bit. Email me, and in my other gilgul I can tell you about him, in nice tones. I’m actually a nice guy IF IT WEREN’T FOR SHTREIMEL SENDING ME MESSAGES IN MY HEAD!!!!

    It’s a long shot but you never know…and yes, read my latest INCREDIBLE BIT OF LITERATURE about yet another tragically crazy person in this tragically crazy world we live in.

    Are we the generation before geulah, or what?

  • Netsach, just wanted to let you know that all your comments were held up in the queue, but I’m not sure why. Maybe one of the tech guys on this site can tell us what in the posts got held up in the spam filter…was it the b”h? Something else? Anyway, they’re posted now, so all y’all gotta go back and read Netsach’s posts. And thanks for your patience, Netsach…

  • did he just say shtriemel is sending him messages in his head??

    and as far as chutzpah’s theory as to why people get religious, its just a tad simplistic, but she’s right, kosher pizza is pretty bad.

  • B”H, Thanks Esther. The blogging can flow more normally if I don’t shtick that “BH” out in there in everybody’s face. There is method to this madness. “Its like I just played my Led Zepelen record Backwards, and I saw G-D,” Quote Cheech and Chong. Thats why I Chozer Be Tchuva 20 years ago. But was way past Cheech and Chong days like in the mid 70’s when I was a teenager.

  • Esther, what I really meant is go have a baby IF you are still single at 43 (G-d forbid),sorry I wasn’t more specific on the time frame.

    Yes, I’ll admit Neve is one of the only good places on earth and I bought into it hook, line and sinker.

    Yep, we fooled the administration. We were so busy cutting classes (him from Ohr Somayach) to go on dates that they never got to know us. Many other friends and mentors in Israel told me not to marry him.

    Yes, my parents and grandparents were mortified!!!! To quote my Grandmother, may she rest in peace, and I got all my Chutzpah from her, “your GreatGrandmother wouldn’t be caught dead in the things you are wearing on your head. Bunch of bull you learned over there…”

    Again, I take 99 percent personal responsiblity and am working on owning up to the other one percent.

    Actually, I’ll be 41 soon and I meant getting lucky at the Livnot 25th Reunion Shabbaton, I was the only one on my program that didn’t get lucky with fellow Chevre because I was too busy believing everything they were teaching me!

    Thanks for the sympathy, but if you could fix me up with a religious guy who likes lobster, that would be more appreciated.

  • Here is one of the latest slam the door in the face rejection from one of the Frumster ladies:
    Thank you for your message. I am not sure what your intent was in sending that email to me, but I did not find it amusing at all. I am on this site because I am serious about getting married, not to play games. However, I wish you much success in your continued efforts.

    I got a few of those harshly worded rejection notices.

    Frumster has the standard form that is sent when one party wishes to reject another. That is much more typical of what I get. It goes like this:

    Thank you for your message. I read your profile, but I did not think we would make a good match. Much success in your continued efforts.

    The truth is, most of the time, I keep an age range of 35-46. I am 41. I don’t attempt to email younger girls through frumster. I have a lot of reasons for that. However, I don’t find older women any more reasonable to relate to, thats for sure, so I don’t look for that age range because I think I am more likely to
    succeed or find it any easier going. BH’

  • Not to be cranky, but people who want family and kids are not doing the life formula that produces those results. Maybe one just cannot have his lobster and eat it too. Pushing the envelope has not worked. I am sad about it too. But the proof of the pudding is the eating. Frum works, the modern funky sensibility seems to just produce wasted time and heart. Don’t throw pots at the messenger.

    PS A man over 30 still looking for a wife has nothing to laugh about and should not be put down because he “does not have a sense of humor”. No, he should not be a complainer or a sourpuss but don’t expect cute or witty. We women are a howl. We want to be entertained then we complain they are not serious. But we reject the earnest ones.

    Let’s hear from people who never knew their fathers on the subject of fatherlessness. The opinions of people on that subject who DID know their fathers are worthless. Even shlepping to a divorced Daddy is better than being robbed of half your history.

    A woman, meaning Chutzpah, who produced two breathing Jewish children, has done wonderfully, thank you, thank you, thank you.

  • Chutzpah, if you go way, way, back to the beginning, you’ll find the contents to be fresher and funnier because that was before I joined.

  • I really shouldn’t leave a comment, because chutzpah’s is such a poetic conclusion…

    To have begun with Internet dating, with detours to watersports, commitmentphobic men, passive-agressive oral sex references, piquant stories of betrayal…

    Only to end with sperm donation.

    There’s a Beckett-like quality to this, isn’t there? ‘Waiting For Embryot.’

    Looking over my modest contributions above, I’m proud to stand as the only romantic in this discussion. (Deride it as Oprahish if you like, Esther, I take no notice.)

    “On ne voit bien qu’avec le coeur.”

  • Sorry, Middleman. Though, if you’re serious about that, you may have to do a moniker re-think…

  • Cynical romantic here. And as for French phrases, I prefer “je ne mange pas de jambon.” (Merci beaucoup, yeshiva high school French.) Or, if you prefer, “la vache est sur la table…je voudrais allez a la bibliotheque.”
    Words we all should live by.

    (Seriously. Does that mean “One cannot see well with the heart”? Shouldn’t a romantic believe that only through the heart can you see clearly?)

    But Waiting for Embryot is genius, Tom.

  • Esther– mind, this may be up there for quality with Google’s automatic translator (who is that guy?)– ‘One can only see with the heart.’

  • Mama did not mean the trackback, but what came right before it.

  • Je suis responsable de ma rose …. sobb This Tom Morrissey is going to lead us out of the wilderness …

    What a wrench is to a plumber, a strand of pearls is to a woman. Essential equipment. I said that.

  • Et la robe noir? Mets-la vite. De la robe noir a la robe blanche, c’est peu de chemin.

    C’est beau, la jeunesse.

  • Helas, JM, ce-Tom Morrissey-la is more likely to lead you into the wilderness, pas out of it…

  • …Only that I’m an unlikely candidate for romantic mahdi, given the track record of my personal life.

  • We’re going to be #1 on Google for Waiting For Embryot (which was genius, btw), but I have a feeling it will take us a while to get up there in the rankings for “pee in my mouth.”

    As for changing my moniker…hmmm…

    Picasso?

  • JM, only encourage this budding romance between the attorney and the writer if he’s willing to convert. 😉

  • Same old stuff with you got comment before you see. Lets see what happened? BH’

  • Maybe I’m one of those folks who discover they’re Jews without knowing it. Like a good college buddy of mine, whose father, a refugee from Hitler’s Germany, decided to conceal his past and reinvent himself as a WASP (in Princeton, NJ, of all places).

    My friend discovered the truth from a cousin at a family gathering a few years back.

    His response? He signed up for J-Date….

  • Glad to hear that, Tom. Esther is very special, and definitely worth the circumcision. Oh, and that whole idea of resurrection, we (apparently) kinda believe in it, just not with a particular person.

    JM, Tom joined us during the Pope is a Zionist discussion, if that tells you anything.

  • Madelaine Albright claims she was in her 50s and Secretary of State when she learned about her background.

  • Well, Morrissey, if you feel that you have a Jewish neshoma, do an ancestor search on the genealogy web sites. There are consultants for that. Knowing who you really are is worth spending money on.

  • Middleman, life-long head (so to speak) start on the anatomical prerequisite.

    For the right babe, we’ll finesse the other issues. Isn’t there a post up above about awaiting the Messiah? …Yeah, we’ll figure something out.

  • …The objective would be to juuuuuusssst barely get over the line to Reform….

  • Ok,no baruch hashem, is that what this system wants? There is more coment lurking here. Everytime I look.

  • Thanks to Team TM for my new corporate slogan: “Esther: Worth the Circumcision.” Very funny, gang…

  • It’s no, uh, small matter, Esther. Talk about risking vulnerability for the woman you love….

  • I have two jokes that I have used to make FIRST CONTACT with in frumster.

    Joke #1
    A shaddchan (matchmaker) corners a yeshiva bochur and

    says “Do I have a girl for you!”.

    “Not interested”, replies the bochur.

    “But she’s beautiful!”

    “Yeah?” says the bochur.

    “Yes. And she’s very rich too.”

    “Really?”

    “And she has great yichus! From a very fine family.”

    “Sounds great.” says the bochur. “But why would a girl like

    that want to marry me? She’d have to be crazy.”

    Replies the shaddchan “Well, you can’t have everything!”

    I wouldn’t get nasty emails in response to that one. I don’t always get flak from what do there, sometimes though.

  • Jewish people are not NORMAL. We sometimes are like wannabee NORMAL people. Some jews even crave to be NORMAL.

  • I don’t know, you would be surprised how nuts you have to be and how many absolutely insane things jews just do. “Luke, Don’t underestimate the dark side of the force.” The jewish day starts in darkness and ends there.

  • Actually, the civil day really starts in darkness, like midnight

  • Today the Bib O said that in ‘da hood, they just call the sperm donor “my baby daddy” . She suggested that her gay interior decorator be Haley Berry’s sperm donor and call himself “haley berry babby daddy”. She is so down with that.

    Didn’t understand any of the French except that no one asked the only French question that really matters:
    Voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir
    Voulez vous coucher avec moi?

    And of course, could you please pass the fries?

  • Netsach, as self-appointed, unofficial non-gentile minister without portfolio on this blog, it is my sad duty to inform you that there is no such thing as ‘normal’. Not amongst my kind, anyway.

    (Hmm, I’m having yet another Beckett moment…)

    HAMM: We’re not beginning to . . . to . . . mean something?

    CLOV: Mean something! You and I, mean something! (Brief laugh.) Ah that’s a good one!

    HAMM: I wonder. (Pause.) Imagine if a rational being came back to earth, wouldn’t he be liable to get ideas into his head if he observed us long enough. (Voice of rational being.) Ah, good, now I see what it is, yes, now I understand what they’re at!

  • The Little Prince is dedicated to a Jew.

    There is no need to be scared of being Jewish. You don’t have to wake up every day and do 613 commandments before heading off to work. It would not have got this old if it were a pain in the neck.

    There was a guy whose aunts scrubbed on Sunday, and lay around doing nothing on Saturday, and had a fit if you brought home a ham. His sister clued him in to the family secret eventually. He had been a Catholic choir boy. He ran to the Jews and felt like himself for the first time. There’s a whole book called “Suddenly Jewish”. Being Jewish is transmitted through one’s mother, not father.

    To thine own self be true.

  • Oops, correction, make that *gentile* minister without portfolio. (Gotta keep my ‘other side’ street cred pending Esther-inspired conversion…)

  • Conversion is not conversion really it is that you always WERE.

  • I am fully observant and I am not crazy at all. Old is not the same thing as crazy.

  • JM, definitely not “scared” of being Jewish. I’m Catholic– believe me, we know from scary! Eternal damnation and all that. Even if you’re a reasonably good boy, off you go to purgatory for a brief roast….

  • still not much of a line between crazy and sick either

  • I just commited a Jewlicious sin. Thou shalt not double click, for you will be spewed out of the system yee sinner. Honestly, I didn’t mean it.

  • The sin worthy of Damnation and exile. Say it twice and yee shall be banned….

  • WAIT A SECOND…..we have a major YOG alert going on here….Morrissey isn’t TRIBAL? omg omg omg omg omg!!!!!!! Jews, people, start BEHAVING YOURSELVES!!!! He’s WATCHING US!!! Listening (okay, reading) all of our weird neurotic postings that only JEWS CAN UNDERSTAND…He’s never going to get it, don’t you understand? We are GUESTS in this COUNTRY>..

    Quick: CK -I DEMAND THAT YOU TALK ABOUT SPORTS! NOW! Yankees, they’re in New York, right? Hey, that’s cool. Very cool. Anybody want some beer? Heinekin? Miller Gold? Taiiiillllgate!

  • Here is Joke #2 amongst my frumser devices for first contact:

    George, age 92, and Edith, age 89, had been seeing each other for 2 years when they decided that life was too short and they might as well be together for the rest of their lives.

    Excited about their decision to become newlyweds, they went for a stroll to discuss the wedding and what plans need to be made. Along their way, they found themselves in front of a drugstore. George said to his bride-to-be, “Let’s go in. I have an idea.”

    They walked to the rear of the store and addressed the man behind the counter:

    “Are you the owner?” asked George.

    The pharmacist answered, “Yes, sir. I am. How can I help you?”

    George: “Do you sell heart medications?”

    Pharmacist: “Of course we do.”

    George: “How about support hose for circulation?”

    Pharmacist: “Definitely.”

    George: “What about medications for rheumatism, osteoporosis and arthritis?”

    Pharmacist: “All kinds.”

    George: “How about waterproof furniture pads and Depends?”

    Pharmacist: “Yes sir.”

    George: “Hearing aids, denture supplies and reading glasses?”

    Pharmacist: “Yes.”

    George: “What about eye drops, sleeping pills, Geritol, Preparation-H and ExLax?”

    Pharmacist: “Absolutely.”

    George: “You sell wheelchairs, walkers and canes?”

    Pharmacist: “All kinds and sizes. Why all these questions?”

    George smiled, glanced shyly at Edith and replied to the pharmacist, “We’ve decided to get married and we’d like to use your store as our Bridal Registry

  • No wife can compete with a motorcycle club. No woman would even try.

  • As usual, I have no idea what jsirpicco’s talking about. Tom, I think we’d best just be friends. Once you went ahead (sorry) with the bris, you’d be just as interested in me as the rest of the Jewish men in the world. Which helps me not a whit, except toward my license to artificially inseminate and become a single mom at age 43 or so (thanks for that official permit, chutzpah…)

    And although I’m glad Netsach has a repertoire of dating jokes, I highly recommend that he not use them in his first contact to women on frumster. Say something real, responsive to the content of their profiles, not canned and formulaic, even if it’s funny. I beg of you.

  • Esther, I thought you said you were a SMART Jewish girl, and you don’t get what Jsirpicco is talking about re: my preivous EXCELLENTLY FUNNY POST?????

    I was laughing as I typed – and I’m damn hard to please!

  • Esther, Tom is already circumcized, but the problem for you is he’d only consider Reform Judaism.

    Oh well.

  • Middleman, I defer to your superior expertise in this matter. Conservative? Orthodox? (Hey, I like Joe Lieberman, even if he does get along with Republicans.) Which way should I go? What’ll float Esther’s boat?

    Now, jsirpicco, I’m deeply offended. Yankee references are fightin’ words to this Bostonian and Sawx season ticket-holder. Bronson Arroyo rocks, baby.

    Esther, your pertly dismissive words can only be construed as a clever test of my intentions. Ah, but rest assured of my constancy…

  • Apparently I’m as dumb and dumberer as the rest of the girls. Unless jsirpicco was spelling “goy” backwards. Reform, huh, TM? Well, I could get used to having my fish sticks shrimp-encrusted.

  • For Esther, you must go Orthodox. Fortunately for you, modern Orthodox is fine and you won’t need to wear a shtreimel.

    But if she’s worth a circumcision, she’s worth becoming Orthodox…

  • YOG spelled backwards is GOY! Yes Esther, you got if 2 hours later, and now the ENTIRE JEWISH COMMUNITY IS IN DANGER!! Again – everybody, TALK ABOUT SPORTS, NOW!! Till we know if we can trust him! Go Chargers!

  • I’m Orthodox? Wow, you learn something new every day. And for the record, sirpicco, I got it earlier. I just didn’t think it was funny, so I thought there must have been more to it that I didn’t get. Guess not.

    And as for you, Tom Morrissey, what with your Shakespearean constancy and e-flirtiness…why don’t you prove your dedication by cleaning and hosting Passover? That should steer you right back to the exhilaration of communion, confession and genuflection.

  • Its obvious, I don’t take Frumster seriously in proportion to the time I spent wrangling with the site. But this internet dating is something, no doubt about that. My younger brother met his fiance on jdate. She is a Mexican (Yehudia….). They plan on getting Married in September G-d willing. She is even crazy enough to be religious, not as Crazy as I am, but crazy. She is even whipping my brother into doing crazy religious stuff.

  • If Judiasm is transmitted through the mother, then there really should be no problem with the sperm donor issue.

  • I understand from an article I did on egg donation that neither the sperm nor the egg has to “be Jewish”–as long as the womb is in a woman who is Jewish, the baby’s Jewish. The only problem remains finding a suitable donor.

  • Donors are easy to find. Sperm is the most commonly discarded fluid on earth. In fact, if they could figure out a way to make car run on it, it would solve the oil shortage, and it would be “wasted” or “spilled” if it was being pumped into the gas tanks of cars, they would just have to be retrofitted with plastic masterbation sleeves….

    However, O’s gorgeous designer did refuse Haley Berry, so I don’t think you are going to get any of his…

    I feabliy attempted to defend O Magazine on Backspin under the chutzpahdik name of “Anon” but I’m alittle afraid of the people over there if anyone wants to read my “fruit of the my womb” line…

  • With a combination of sperm and egg donation, That could make three parties involved. Sperm guy, egg female and birth female. 3 people who don’t have to know each other.

  • Thats how I read of stories of women as old as 64 giving birth. If I find the articles, I will give a reference. As I recall, there was an Israeli woman who gave birth at 62.

  • At this rate, I predict in 2035, a 64-year-old American woman will give birth…

    And as to donors, “suitable” still remains the issue.

  • I just can’t see what ever post is in here unless I chime in with something. Is this a permenant feature about this establishment?

  • As I recall a French 64 year old gave birth with some interesting details. I thought I heard that she used her brother’s sperm. I am not exactly sure how that was done. Because the “how” could be relevent to the issue of Incest?

  • I take a few hours off to attend to hygeine and raise my blood sugar level, log back on with a hopeful smile, only to find– we’re back to sperm donation?

    Maybe it’s meant to be. And, apropos “suitable” donor candidates amongst us- I nominate Middleman. He has a track record of perpetuating the species, I gather. He’s bright–maybe too bright to be extremely good-looking– but then again, we’re cutting to the chase. No romantic preliminaries. An impersonal mode of, uh, delivery.

    Jsirpicco? I don’t think he’s an actual person with actual sperm, but a character from a Martin Amis novel.

    I’m aghast at chutzpah’s chutzpah. This is no laughing matter. So many women (read: Esther) wrestle daily with the absence of sperm from their lives. How about some compassion?

    Pulled an all-nighter reading up on Orthodoxy. Kinda like Catholicism, only different. No pope, no rottweiler… hmm, seems odd. (I’ll make a few suggestions at the appropriate time.)

    Don’t like shellfish, anyway: check. Second set of plates for Passover? Don’t have a first set. Should be able to deal with that. No milk runs after 3 p.m. Fridays? OK.

    And guess what, guys? My kids are Jewish even if I’m not, as long as mom is.

    Which puts ME into play for sperm donation…

  • Actually, Tom, you’ve got the sperm donor advantage. As a newbie, your genes are the least inbred. Especially if you’re tall and blonde, I say go for it.

  • Wow, Conserva-Girl. Thanks for the marketing niche!

    If by ‘tall’, you mean 5’9″, and ‘blonde’, brownish hair, then I’m all set. (Too Aryan might be a tad… strange…)

  • Tom, you have done well in your research. In fact, you may wish to revisit that entire discussion that we have shared regarding the new Pope being…reactionary, not unlike some of the people on our site who advocate…reactionary views in Judaism.

    Anyway, you are correct that among Orthodox, Judaism is passed along through matrilineal lines, although Reform rejects this view and blames the father as well.

    As for my looks, what can I say…I seem to recall there being a time when some lovely members of the fair sex…oh, never mind…

  • Morriessey is an Imposter! He’s not a goy at all! He’s a Jewish guy, pretenting to be a goy, pretending to be interested in Jewish stuff so he can knock up our pure Esther!

    Test: Quick, Tom: Name 3 starting pitchers on the New York Yankees -FROM THE LAST 5 YEARS!!!!! (If you can’t- you’re one of us. If you can, but are pretending not to, then you’re one of “them.” And if you know what they earned, then you’re one of us again!

    And yes, I have real “seed” – potent, too! 5 kids in 9 years potent (plus some misses, plus some misses)

  • j-
    What kind of qualifying test is that? In any tri-state shul, on any given Shabbos, just after Musaf amidah, at least 25% of the men are discussing the merits of the Yanks’ ’01 bullpen vs. the shmoes (their word, not mine) they’ve got this year.

    I think you meant to say hockey. Aside from maybe ck up north, what do Jews know from hockey?

  • NASCAR!!!! Conserva-girl, you Rock. Oh! I love Jewish chick, they are smart, sexy and with it.
    You were so close -but you got me on the right track. So, yeah. Okay, “Tom” – Who’s #1 on Nascar Circuit right now? Hmmm? (Supressing the answer? Aha! )
    Re the misses: don’t sweat it, wrote it twice by mistake – it is part of life sometimes…let’s not drag each other down…

  • Jsirpicco, it was a joke about the misses, not about you…You consistently make me laugh, btw, so why would I wish to “drag you down?”

    And yeah…NASCAR would probably be the dividing line. You know how in the movies the Nazis make the men pull down their pants to show whether they’re circumcized? It would be just as effective to shout at them, “Okay, how long is the Daytona 400?” If they get it wrong, they’re Jewish men.

  • jsirpicco, to answer your question: Vasquez, Brown, Johnson, Pettitte, Clemens… A rogue’s gallery of souless mercenaries.

    Baseball’s a bad litmus, as Conserva-girl says. After all, Theo Epstein, America’s most illustrious Jewish-American, present company excluded (and fellow grad of my alma mater) runs the reigning world champs…

    (Conserva-girl, tell ’em tomorrow that Torre messed up by blowing out the bullpen last year…)

  • Listen, Morrissey, if you’re going to talk way above our heads, this is just not going to lead ANYWHERE. The main thing is, did ya like the hot dogs they served? Or a little too spicey?

  • What the hell is a shibboleth? Why would you embarrass Jewish males further by bringing up unfamiliar race car names?

  • Wikipedia:

    Shibboleths can also be customs or practices, such as male circumcision.

    Its like guy stuff? The opposite of a Chick flick or like Barbie dolls?

  • Okay, so to bring us full circle, I propose that you do away with the current dating site classifications and replace them shibboleth: Are you into NASCAR? What percentage do you tip at restaurants? Tsitsis in or out at baseball games? Kippah or baseball cap on Sunday?

  • I have bought a few Sephardi cookbooks. Just because of Jewlicious.

  • If you think you could send me a few recipes Jewish Ma, I’d be in your debt. Im sephardic but I dont think Ive ever actually had sephardic dishes…

  • B”H

    I keep my Tsitsit whipped out. When my Litvok Grandmother, obm, first saw me with my Tsitsit for the first time she grabbed ahold of them frantically and demanded a chance to make a pocket for them so they wouldn’t have to stick out. It took her awhile; she eventually stoped that. She must have realized it wouldn’t do any good to Chok N’Chinek. I know that in Riga, where she was from before the “Great War” – WW1 jews got beat up in streets for looking like jews. Probally afterwards as well if the Nazis that took over didn’t kill us first or send us to camps in Poland. Such fear based Yentaism is reasonable in a sense I see a need to be respectfull and understand her position. There some other Yenta fear based attitude I find less reasonable and much less tolerent of.

  • I forgot, no Baruch Hashems here. I wonder if I just did a Jewlicious sin.

  • Conserva-girl: your proposed dating site categories are right on. I’d go further, and make them purely arbitrary. Relying instead on nature, cupid, serendipity, or metaphysical intervention.

    And you’re a Sox fan? In NY? The Kennedy Library should fly you up here for one of the Profile in Courage awards!

    (Middleman, shoulda gone to USD (actually have long fantasized about life at UCSB), but Camp Eli was the reference.)

  • Pee is unhealthy to drink. Not unhealthy to touch. It is used by the body to remove that which is needed for natural cleansing mode. Being that we eat many chemicals and the air is worse, it is possible that this was not as unhealthy some years ago. Today it would be morally wrong for both the pee er, and the peed upon, to engage in this activity.
    I believe that Chutzpah has one simple problem that she is living the anger of her miserable dopey ex husband. If you follow her blogs you will note a very irrational level of actions.
    I emphathize deeply w/ her, but wish to point out, that it would be more healthy if she accept full responsibility. That she ultimately chose to marry the dope. Now people do change unfortunately. But this will happen in every marriage, the partners are going to change.

    This anger is manifest in very twisted instant attacks on people, if they happen to claim some kind of affiliation w/ Orthdoxy.

    It would be more holistic to accept what has happened, to not want ex to be anything but a Dope. Like a patch of weed that you have to uproot and throw away.

    My Blessing for you Chutzpah, is that we should all hear great things from you, and your children, and you should find a man that is right for you, that appreciates, the wonderful qualities that you possess.

  • What happened the the other 25 or so blogs since?

  • Hey Middleman, life at UCSB is a mixed blessing for sure… great scenery, but man, there’s been a huge increase in fundies there. Can’t even enjoy a nice relaxing break in front of the library without getting preached to by one group or another.

    nerdgirl (class of ’82 & ’93, last visit ’03)

  • Maybe its so difficult to define with labels because of the need of them, which is that everyone has different opinions on the definitions of Judaism or being Jewish?

  • Then it’s a catch-22: We need the labels to understand where people are coming from. But then people are resistant to being categorized and often feel the need to qualify their self-categorization or affiliation with a specific group. By doing that, the label loses its resonance. So what’s the point in using the labels to begin with? Yikes.

  • I wonder–who came up with these titles, and what exactly their meaning is? Is one who is Flexidox good @ Jewish Yoga and Meditation? How about Conservadox–A dash of Conservative to Orthodox–and PRESTO! BEHOLD A CONSERVADOX!!!!! Another STREAM??? I DIDNT KNOW WE WERE IN WATER, CAPITANO!!!Look, you are what you are. Many people can say they are “Modern Ortho Liberal” Or “Mod Ortho Machmir”–or before you can say “TomCruiseEmbrassassesHimselfYetAgain” there will be a Modern MachmirLiberOx. I think everyone has their own definitions of what each label is, and as each person is a microcosm in and of themselves, with diff life experiences–dont take the labels too seriously. Be yourself. Actually? I am looking for a MENTCHADOX. Can we incorporate this one into the online web sites? Lets get crackin, peeps.

  • At JQS.com – JMatch.com we ask people to explain what role Judaism play in their life. No two answers are alike…We also have a “flexible” to accomodate all shades…

  • End of Summer Bash-Pre-Rosh Hashana singles party
    Sunday Sept. 25th, Beit Shaul V’Miriam, 2208 Ave S, Brooklyn NY Chalav Yisrael dinner Rabbi Ben-Abu to speak on the life of Singles and transition to Marriage, For singles or divorcees, Orthodox, Modern or Growing into Judaism.
    Meet singles and mingle to find your Match(Bashert) All ages. e-mail [email protected] for reservations. Proceeds go to Ahavat Kol Yisrael…Jerus. Israel to feed poor for Shabbat & holidays…e-mail today…reserve

  • ZIZA Saada: Uh… that’s not the way we do things here. You email us about your party and then we can put up a post about it. Otherwise this looks like, you know, comment spam. I’ll leave it on because a Sephardic Rabbi is involved, but next time please follow protocol! Have a good party.

  • what is frum?! i’ve been jewish for 20 years and i never ever heard that term until i started reading this blog. i mean i gathered that “frum” girls are tznuot, but there must be more to it.

  • PS, for those of you interested in continuing this discussion, Frumster just announced that they’re opening up their service to those Jews who are looking for a serious partner, but who don’t self-define as frum. How do I know? I have my sources.

  • Have we american girls lost our sex appeal? i know that american jewish men find israeli woman as hot,and israeli men think american jewish woman are plain. Maybe i need to go to israel to buy clothes ,hairstyle, and learn to walk like a sabra. Is it true that we american woman have lost our sexiness? Do we really go to the mall in sneakers and sweatsuits while the israeli, italian, and madrid girls get the eye time from our boys? Any ideas? I wrote you in the other section yesterday. The other day in manhattan I passed an israeli woman . She was all dressed up in scarf and sweaterand her hair was set nicely and al the guys just stoppedcand looked. Is there a place in NYC where i can go to learn how to be a lil more sexy or israelize myself? Any israeli girls out there who can help? My dad said its the accent,that american jewisg men are turned on by an accentin a girls , Maybe i need to fake an israeli accent. Im almost 40 and I still havent met My Mr Right. ill settlr for Mr ok eben Mr maybe

  • Ive always wondered why does halacha require that a man please his wife maritally when in fact it is the man that clearly needs it and women seem to do fine without it?!!

  • well
    my experience with frumster has been very positive.
    I feel like across miles and miles of land there are people who share my vision of similar lifestyles.

    What I’m interested in is a frum guy with an open mind to the outside world, who wants to live in Israel. Who also is easy going with a sense of humor.

    And honestly, I’m having a great time just talking to people across the Jewish communities! and they’re funny and witty, and we just roll jokes and touch on important points. and people are pretty open minded about the restrictions of the labels.

    Maybe the website just doesn’t suit you, but please don’t speak Lashon Hara about it.

    Good luck!

  • This in reality is my very first time i go to here. I found so many entertaining stuff in your blog, in particular its argument. In the lots of critical reviews in your writing, I guess I’m not the only 1 acquiring all the leisure here! Keep up the excellent work.

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