Boo![Jpost reports that:] Hamas and Islamic Jihad announced today that the PA is fully willing to allow the terrorist groups to retain arms, despite their stated intentions to maintain operations against Israel. As Musa Abu Marzouk, senior Hamas leader in Syria put it:

We stressed during the meeting that the Palestinians have the right to continue the resistance [against Israel] and that there would be no attempt to collect weapons from the resistance groups…The weapons of the resistance were founded to defend the Palestinian people and resist the occupation…The Gaza victory was achieved with the weapons of the resistance, which is the only strategy to drive Israel out of the rest of our lands.

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei concurred:

Gaza is a part of Palestine, and there will be no calm until the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

Muffti guesses it’s no surprise that the negotiations had a “cordial atmosphere” to them. It’s fairly easy to agree when no one is disagreeing, after all. And really, who can blame the Palestinian Authority? As the IDF has proved several times over, operating against the wishes of these groups is definitely NOT fun.

In other good news, the Popular Resistance Committees who operate out of Gaza claimed to have developed a missile with a range of 15 km (called the ‘Sajil’), which puts Ashkelon squarely within its range. Muffti supposes the PRC will enjoy a complete lack of disamament.

It’s August 24th, 2005. The forecast calls for more of the same.

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grandmuffti

32 Comments

  • HaShem protect us. HaShem guide us to re-occupation. HaShem lead us to victory over those who seek to destroy us.

  • Am I the only one here who sees a terrific advantage to controlling these people now that the IDF doesn’t have to worry about also protecting a whole bunch of little communities?

  • Well, Sharon’s day of reckoning is not far off. On the day that the 1st missile falls on Ashkelon, chas v’shalom, and retaliation is not immediate and devestating is the day the government falls.

  • Again, the “good” that can come of this is that the Palestinian government will fail and will finally put to rest all these arguments that they are oppressed people.

  • Joel that is the problem,

    We are always worried about what everybody will say.

    “if more jews are killed THEN the world will see how ‘bad’ the ‘palestinians’ are.”

    Unreal.

    I hope after seeing all those links HERE that you didn’t respond too you now understand that the arabs must go.

  • Joe, the problem with world opinion is that if it gets heated enough it can lead to war. 200 Jews killed by terrorist, while a tragedy, is nothing compared to the thousands and possible extermination of the Jewish state if these two hundred deaths prove a point. I know it’s awful, I know that it’s horrible thinking, but it’s true. If world opinion turns into world violence against Israel, then what else does Israel have? By not appeasing the most moderate of the world we run the risk of sancations, reprimands, boycotts, and military action. That is something Israel simply cannot afford. Likewise, who knows, maybe the Palestinians will break out into Civil War over who should lead the Palestinian state. This too would provide enough evidence that the region was much more stable with Israel running it.

  • It’s also fucking immoral, Joe. “The Arabs must go” sounds like “The Jews must go.” It’s incredible that we have among us people who would do to others what has been done to Jews. Oh, and use the bible to justify it. I hear some of your folks are seeking to launch the new Kingdom of Judea, Joe. Please join them, and may I recommend that you place it deep in the heart of where Sodom used to be.

  • it’s not that “the arabs must go,” you racist, it’s that the Arabs *must* be sudordinated and subject to Israeli control. they cannot lead themselves anywhere except tighter into the grasp of terror and radicalism.

  • IOW Joe, you have to see this population as people, not animals. You have to decide what they are. Be logical.

    It is obvious, that as a people, they are into being led by a strong leader.
    So whatever group is in power, must be challenged w/ converting the hate and violence that exists there to something positive. If the economy there will be robust, then there will be much less violence. Now to wipe it out entirely I cannot say. This is the position that Bush is taking that he can do the same w/. respect to those muslims who so hate America that they would sacrifice their lives.
    Also most of the world, does not subscribe to the idea that all Arabs are raving terrorists. So you would have a hard time in reality implementing ‘They Must Go’, ala Rabbi Kahane, Z”L. I say Z”L because I know many good things that he did before he made Aliyah, helping many Jews who were heavily into drugs and crime, and many of them changed for the good, tho not all I will concede, still maybe a handful got arrested and hardly any become hardened criminals.

    Joe it cannot happen anyway, unless you had a military coup of Kachniks. Where would you get the votes. It is time for the Far Far Right to get real.

  • David Aaliyah first of all there is nothing racist here – I have amply explained in the other posts why they must go. I suppose Jews like you with illusions just ignore all the logic in the world. In one ear out the other as they say.

    Anyway according to you how is what you said:
    “the Arabs *must* be subordinated and subject to Israeli control” not racist?!

    Wow you are the real racist! I have good reasons for wanting them out what is your reason?!

    Furthermore I don’t want anyone to be subordinated I want the to live free as long as they leave us alone- do you read what you right in the same breath as criticizing me?!

    Joel,
    While I understand your fear – unfortunately that will happen anyway. Even now you hear the ‘world’ yelling always louder at Israel- believe me you can’t escape it. The world will be quiet when we are dead. We have to do what must be done and rely on G-d
    – to Hell with the world!

    If we worry about the world we will slowly cave in and become weaker and the world will continue to demand things and as soon as we say ‘enough’ they will jump on us. There is no escape.

    We were warned from day 1 not to fear the world and that if we do fear them and cave in against what our Father wants they will swallow us.

    We are seeing that play out before our eyes.

    Here is another article:
    http://www.kahane.org/meir/world.htm
    (I am not sure if the 1968 date on top should have been 1978. I have to find out.)

  • I think, because of your bias and extremist views, you have ignored what the world is saying. While it is true that many liberals in the United States are still calling for the head of Israel (ironic, the idealogy we’ve given the most money to is turning around and stabbing us), moderates and conservatives are sitting back and noticing what’s going on in Gaza with the Palestinians. The head of the Democratic Convention in my area sent out an e-mail to those who have signed up for it, and basically said that we may have been wrong about Gaza. My point in all of this? The United States is going to support Israel no matter what. No body wants to face the United States, or at least go to war with Israel if it will cause the US to impliment a draft and begin fighting for Israel. Nobody, even if they could wipe out Israel, would want to risk war with the US. If Europe still hates Israel after the pull out, they will continue with their useless slaps on the wrist and condemnations but will never do anything more.

    Regardless, that is worst case scenario, which isn’t all that bad. What will likely happen is the world will now turn to the Palestinians and go, “Okay, now what?” When the response is an RPG and a suicide bomber, they will realize the mistake in pressuring Israel.

  • Joel I disagree with your analysis and rosy picture of the future vis a vis the US.

    Things change in every country and in every society. How long do you think the troops will remain in Iraq? You think forever? You say that the US will always be there for israel- you think they would implement a draft and fight for Israel?!

    There must be something you know that I don’t.

    Why do you say that? where do you pick up your information?!

    You see I can only go by the past. In the past and even now countries go by self-interest. If it happens to be in their interest they will do it. You might argue that Israel winning over the arabs is in the US’s self-interest- if that is your argument I will agree with you but only temporarily.
    Joel don’t you remember the holocaust? When the US refused to let Jews in while they were being killed? When they refused to bomb the tracks?!

    You see then they wern’t at war yet with germany and it wasn’t in thier self-interest in their estimation. Therefore they refused to bomb the tracks even though we were being killed.
    Yes Joel, I heard that from my elders- my own grandfather told that to me.

    Who says that in 10 years from now it will be in the US’ self-interest to defend Israel? maybe then there will be more arabs here. maybe then they will have another ally in the middle-east and Israel will then be expendable?

    There was the golden age in Spain in the 1400s and in England in the 1800s and in germany in the early 1900s and in every country. During those times Jews felt that their country was great and wouold never let them down. But times change nothing is guaranteed as we learnt.

    If you are going to make arguments Joel back it up because the one place I know you are not getting it from is history.

    Jobber I don’t know how to respond to someone who repeats things I never said. I havent said to kill them and I haven’t said they are animals. I have said the opposite. They are people who have beliefs and although wrong nevertheless have those beliefs. They believe Israel is all thiers. I sympathize and therefore realize that they cannot stay in israel since their beliefs will make them kill us. I am trying very hard to correct your misrepresentations although I wonder if you even attempted to actually read what I wrote in all these posts.

  • The notion that expulsion/transfer of the Arabs west of the Jordan is somehow totally impossible and unacceptable is quaintly, idealistically ignorant of geopolitical history.

    And since most “Palestinians” are Jordanian, Syrian, or Egyption citizens – or first generation descendants of such citizens – the proper term is actually “repatriation”.

    At the turn of the 20th century, a diplomat brokered a resolution of the Turkish-Greek hostilities that involved the force repatriation of well over a million Greeks and Turks – people who, unlike the Pals, had lived in their locations for centuries.

    Similarly, the division of Europe after WWII resulted in the massive repatriation of millions of ethnic Germans who had settled in the Ukraine and other areas. Again, people with a connection of centuries to their place, rather than just a generation or two as for most Palis.

    I am not saying that the current generation of Jews/Israelis has the moral obduracy to ignore their history and values and implement such a solution.

    But we’re getting there. The security barrier is an expression of apathy and cynicism – healthy apathy and cynicism, because there is nothing more moral than putting one’s own interests before the welfare of one’s attackers. The security barrier is a healthy sign that Israelis have climbed out of the dizzying PC hall of mirrors, that they have become “normal” to the extent that they no longer feel guilty for actually fighting their attackers.

    We’re getting there – the generation of soldiers that carried out the expulsion in Gaza will one day ask itself – if we can do it to Jews, why not to Arabs?

  • Don’t forget the partition of India in ’47. A total of 15,000,000 Hindu and Muslim refugees trading places.

    Anybody hear a peep about them now?

    Nope. Nobody here but us crickets.

    And anybody remember Black September?

    Oh, right, that was Arabs killing and expelling Arabs. Which makes it perfectly OK, of course.

    My bad.

    Carry on.

  • shalom chaverim,
    present day israel does not need gaza. neither do the palis. the difference is they want to fight and die for this strip of land. we would prefer to live in peace without it.
    have no fear, if the palis do not take sharon’s warnings seriously they will die in gaza.
    this is the last sacrifice of land. lets see what the palis do with it. unfortunately sometimes g-d gives nuts to monkeys without teeth.
    he also gave gaza to the jews & will again. when we are ready.
    peace & life
    dovid

  • Ben-David and Ephraim,

    Good to see other straight thinking people here.
    Its unfortunate that it takes things like this to help people see. Unfortunately I fear it will take alot of worse things before more people see what was really obvious all along.

  • Ok, Ephraim and Ben-David:

    Do you condone the cases that you mention? If you do, fine, at least you are consistent. But if you don’t, and Muffti assumes that at least some of the cases you don’t, then why are they relevant? No one ever questioned whether we can expell the Pals.

  • No, Muffti. Just complaining about goyish double-standards.

    I will say plainly, however, that if I thought Israel could find a way to humnanely relieve itself of the Paleostinians (NOT make pogroms on them, NOT put them in camps, NOT exterminate them, NOT make them into soap and lamps, etc., but just get them to leave), I would not shed a tear for their loss or worry about “Jewish morality” or “ethnic cleansing”.

    We need to face facts: if we want a Jewsih country, it must be JEWISH. The Arabs think that “Hatikvah” oppresses them? Well, tough shit. Israel is of, by, and for the Jews, and if the Arabs don’t like it, there’s the door, pal. Don’t let it hit you in the ass on your way out.

    But…but….how would you feel if the Americans woke up one day and said “This is an Xian country. Juden Raus! How would you feel then, huh? This is a good point, and I do not deny it. When Moshiach comes, we will be able to stop worrying about countries and borders, citizenship and loyalty. Until then, what must be done?

    Israel is a bigger dilemma for the Jews than it is for the goyim. Why? Because it is, in essence, a repudiation of the idea that Jews belong elsewhere. The entire Galut has been an attempt by the Jews to rationalize the Jewish presence among the goyim and to make it into something normal. After all, what is the Jewish experience here in the Goldeneh Medina other than one long attempt to convince the goyim (and ourselves) that we belong here? Israel stands that whole idea on its head.

    What is Israel, exactly? Is it just a refuge for the poor oppressed Jews and so we hope that the goyim will have rachmanus on us and protect us from the next pogrom? If it is, we will ALWAYS be at the mercy of the goyim who will decide the extent of Jewish rights and who will be able to define what Israel should be. After all, if Israel is a refuge for the oppressed, it loses its legitimacy when the oppressed are seen to be the oppressors.

    Or is Israel a throwback to the idea of ethnic nationalism? If it is, then in its essence it is a repudiation of the idea of a “one-world family”. We need to face what that means. (Nobody really believes in a “one world family”, but that’s another discussion.)

    As a practical matter, countires dominated by a certain ethnic/religious/linguistic group will often have large pockets of people of differing background living amongst them. Therefore, the fact that large numbers of Arabs live in Israel does not necessarily have to be a problem. The question is: what and where is the tipping point? Israel was created as a Jewish country. For it to be maintained as a Jewish country, its citizens must be loyal to that ethos, or, at the very least, not be actively disloyal to it. To the extent that the Arabs can live with their situation as a minority in a Jewish country and not engage in treason, they can stay. If they cannot do this, they should be expelled. Britain, after one measly bombing incident that killed only about 50 people, are shooting people to death on the subways without warning or due process and instituting draconian sedition laws that can get a person expelled if he is overheard in a coffee shop saying “You know, Osama bin Laden has a point.”

    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Israel should do the same. any citizen of the state, Arab or Jew, who actively supports organizations or causes that seek to destroy Israel or undermine its legitimacy should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled. This would, at the very least, remove the Arab traitors in the Knesset and get the people who elect them to shut up. While we would all of course like to see everyone make nicey-nice, I cannot get too worked up about depriving the Arabs of their “voice” if all they can say is “Death to the Jews”.

    After all, Kahane was banned. They cannot do the same to people like Bishara?

    (Of course, if and when there are no Arabs in Israel, then the Jews can REALLY start arguing about what sort of a place Israel should be, so perhaps I should beware of what I wish for.)

  • That was nicely put, Ephraim. Muffti supposes that deep down, what you say reflects largely why many atheists really wish religion would just disappear one day and leave no trace. Sadly, it also reminds Muffti of Schmo’s comments: there is no clean way to interlace Judaism with modern liberal ideals.

  • Muffti, you’re the only person in this discussion with any lingering attachment to “modern liberal ideals.” (Which ones?)

    There’s Western precedent for the approach Ephraim suggests. Germany, for example, has always linked citizenship to ethnic background; gnererally, only ethnic Germans get to be citizens, with naturalization severely restricted. (In France, the USA, etc., citizenship is not linked to ethnicity.)

    (Ephraim, you really need to brush up on your history– or read the papers– if you think the Muslim-Hindu partition in 1947 proceeded without incident, or is now a matter of world indifference.)

  • Muffti,

    You like sticking religion in where it is irrelevant. In most of the cases: germans repatriated after WWII, the Turk-greek deal and the wiping out of palestinians by Jordon (aside for most wars in this world throughout (European wars? Civil War? …) were all about nationality and land and other factors. There were wars and kiliings way before Moses came and led us out of Egypt to Mt. Sinai. I don’t want to again get into why atheists are obviously wrong, but at least don’t toss irrelevant things into places they don’t belong.

  • Who said I said it went off without incident, Tom? I mentioned the 15,000,000 refugees didn’t I? It was a horrifyingly messy business, and the effects are still with us.

    What did NOT happen, however, was the creation of a UN bureaucracy to maintain those 15,000,000 people as refugees in perpetuity, a movement to destroy one of the parties to the conflict (India) or the refusal of the Muslims to take the country that was given them (Pakistan), or a refusal on their part to recognize the legitimacy of the existence of India. It is still a dispute, but noit a mortal one. Of course, if there were a billion Jews in Israel, no one would be saying boo.

    Oh, yeah, I forgot: the Sudeten Germans. Where is their UNRWA, huh?

    Funny to think that I could get German citizenship if I wanted. My father is a stam German and my mother’s (Jewish) side of the family comes from Germany also.

  • Schmo, Muffti didnt’ meant to say that he wishes that religion were the only thing that would disappear…

  • Ephraim, I have a Holocaust survivor friend (native of a town near Frankfurt-M.) who retains her German passport, with dual US-German citizenship. I believe she receives some form of compensation from BRD.

    It may not be too late for you to cast your ballot against Gerhard Schroeder.

    Well, you’re right that the UN isn’t trying to micromanage South Asia. Of course, the Brits decided to take that matter into their own hands, crudely and arbitrarily drawing a border and setting off the resettlement/refugee crisis. In contrast, the UN has diddled with Israel’s borders from the beginning– didn’t the UN propose a ‘two-state solution’ back in ’47 or ’48?

    There’s likely no shaking the UN’s baleful presence.

  • Tom, I knew this Bavarian guy who, once he learned of my mixed background, actually told me that I should drop all of this Jewish nonsense and return to the loving embrace of the Herrenvolk.

    And he was serious too. Abso-fucking-lutely bizarre.

  • that’s one great thing jews and germans have in common– a strong awareness of and either afinity or revulsion towards their ancestral heritage.

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