She backed the Bridge to Nowhere during he run for Governor, and killed it when there was a public outcry. Then claims that she was against it all along.
She claims she will govern for the people as she has done in Alaska. Just don’t get in her way while shes doing it to for you.
She allegedly had her sister’s ex-husband fired who is a csutody battle over kids. Denies any knowledge of course, but someone from her office called over two dozen times about the matter
She kills large game animals for fun, but won’t abort a week old embryo. Hunts elk and other things, but is as fundamentalist as it gets on a woman’s right to choose—there is none.
She is being promoted as a reformer, but as Mayor she hired Washington insider to get millions in earmarks for her tiny town of Wasilla. She left her town of Wasilla in debt.
I was surprised at the brevity of her career, her opportunism, flip-flopping, and the many questions that are hanging over her. If she were to win with McCain, she has the potential to be President of the United States. McCain’s ticker is getting old, and she is next in line.
In Sydney, they are not hoodwinked as fast as the American media.
On Friday, the day she was introduced as Senator McCain’s running mate, Mrs Palin touted her opposition to a bridge originally championed by Alaska’s most prominent officials as an example of her fiscal conservatism and reformist credentials.
“I told Congress, ‘Thanks but no thanks on that bridge to nowhere’,†Mrs Palin said.
Prominent Alaska Democrats said Mrs Palin had supported building the bridge while she was campaigning for governor and reversed course only after opposition by fiscal conservatives in Washington, including Senator McCain.
“She was the only candidate who was saying ‘We’re going to build that bridge’,†said the former governor, Tony Knowles, who lost to Mrs Palin in 2006.
COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY ON EARTH THIS RUNNER UP FOR MS. ALASKA, SPORTSCASTING, ELK-HUNTING FUNDAMENTALIST SHOULD BE THE NEXT VP?
In a widely circulated email, people were excited that she had an Israeli flag in her office. Well that means she MUST be great. This LA Times article is worth reading too…
This list of reasons against Sarah Palin is from a group of her opponents in Alaska that run a Pro-Bear website:
The top 10 things you should know about Sarah Palin:
1) She is presently under investigation in Alaska for abuse of power
2) She believes creationism should be taught in public schools
3) She is opposed to abortion even in cases of rape and incest
4) She is a champion for big oil and supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and everywhere else
5) Less than two years ago she was only the mayor of a small Alaskan town
6) She believes global warming is a farce
7) In 2007 she put out a bounty on wolves paying $150 for turning in legs of freshly killed wolves
8) She is opposed to listing the polar bear as an endangered species
9) She supports aerial hunting of bears and wolves even though Alaskans voted twice to ban the practice
10) She used $400,000 of state money to fund a media campaign in support of aerial hunting
@ Froyline. I agree that her morals are a lot better than the democratic president.
Over here, unless there are complications, you nowadays even get released from hospital right on the day or the day after giving birth, but law prescribes a mandatory six weeks’ leave in addition to the optional three years’ maternity leave.
I read somewhere that Palin went back to work THREE days after giving birth.
American women get so little time off after giving birth as it is. Does Palin believe three days should be the normal time given for working women?
In that case, let me state emphatically, g-d must have put Hillary’s legs on upside down. Hence the pant suit. It will be great not to have the highest woman in power with cankles.
But still, there are plenty of other reasons Palin is unfit for Veep regardless of the abortion issue. To me, basically, she’s just Dan Quayle with breasts. 😛
Well, frankly I detest Palin mostly on her abysmal environmental record that Rabbi Yonah outlined above… and for her idiotic, condescending op-ed piece in the NY Times a few months ago which basically made a (paper thin) case for completely gutting the ESA… plus her lack of experience in foreign policy, which is what the GOP has been using ad nauseum to flagellate Obama… But on the other hand I’m not too crazy on Obama’s stance on reproductive rights as well… not to dig up an argument I’ve agreed to leave alone but I think too much emphasis is placed — by BOTH sides — on “irresponsible behavior” when it comes to the abortion debate, and not enough on the other issues I outlined above.
Palin made no mention of abortion during her RNC speech, but she’s clearly a lightning rod for people on both sides of the debate. However, it’s really the pro-choice folks who’ve foregrounded the issue in their campaign to take her down. A pro-life woman poised to be a force in national politics must be destroyed at all costs– or so one must conclude after this past week. It seems crazy to me to focus on Palin as opposed to the many issues that favor the Dems, but the left, so far, has chosen differently.
Paradox as in aborted people can’t vote?
Actually, it would be interesting to see what voters’ priorities are. Suppose the economy and foreign relations are the most pressing issues, but that’s from my Old World perspective.
So is the fate of the country in the hands of which side of this debate someone falls on? It’s an astounding paradox.
That’s why I like abortion. It keeps looters and losers from adding more looters and losers to the world. I like abortion for completely selfish reasons. People are overrated. You liberals believe in over-population too, don’t ya? Why not kill em babies so the rest of us have more space? I’m all for it. Of course, I want 8 kids myself and won’t consider “the earth’s needs” for a minute.
Basically, the less Jamie Lynn Spears and P Dittys walking around this earth, the better. However, it’s really funny (not funny haha, but funny pathetic) how so many liberals whom are anti-racism (of course!!!!) don’t either know or care about why Planned Parenthood was founded in the first place: to kill black babies.
http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.html
And here is a classic: Pranking Planned Parenthood:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/28/audio-pranking-planned-parenthood/
Froylien, I have no soft sides 🙂
Ah, BTW, while it’s officially illegal to dispose of an unwanted baby here, many cities have installed something called “Babyklappe”. Basically something like a huge post box (with a baby crib in it) where women can drop off their babies anonymously and won’t face legal persecution. In the past, before everything got “properly” regulated (this is Germany afterall), women would drop off unwanted children at a church or a monastery, and the child would usually and unbureaucratically get adopted by some local family. Quite a few people of my grandmother’s generation got adopted that way.
Sheela, it’s ok; I hope you know I like you.
Basically, what I’m saying is that people should act responsibly when it comes to sexual intercourse and that religious Judaism, apart from a very few rigid exceptions, does not condone of abortion. I also encourage everyone to get tested for STDs (over here it’s a criminal offence to give somebody a STD, whether knowingly or whatnot, so the state apparently considers responsible behavior re: sexuality expectable as well). As I’ve occasionally told my students, “You wouldn’t let your best friend drive your car lest she might return it with a scratch [cultural note: Germans tend to get very obsessed about their cars and their immaculate condition], but you’d spread your legs to a random stranger that buys you a bourbon-and-coke at a club.”
Also, I spend a lot of time in the streets of Brooklyn, no worries.
Whenever the Federal Ministry of Health here publishes their stats, media also compare to other statistics from other nations, and those from the US I’ve read so far clearly showed that neither clinical (as in the mother’s life being threatened), forensic (an unwanted pregnancy due to rape) or eugenic (the child being diagnosed with an illness) and hardly ever social (financial) indications come into play. It’s saddening, but that’s apparently the way many women tick. BTW, unlike in the US, unmarried people may not adopt children here (which, I think, is another unnecessary obstacle the German system has for people that want to adopt kids while I strongly believe any child would be better off getting raised by a gay couple that wants to take care of it than spending its childhood years in a foster home). As for the diseases, I’m aware average medical care here is better than in the US, but pre-natal surgeries are already carried out on fetuses to enable the later child to a next-to-normal life. A few of my friends were pre-natally diagnosed with severe handicaps, but thanks to medical care they turned out really fine and have lived well beyond their predicted life expectancy. Science’s been making great advances. Maybe I’ve misexpressed myself above, I didn’t say women that decide for an abortion due to a eugenic indication didn’t love their children, but that it requires a lot of love to deal with the needs of handicapped kids.
Let’s agree to disagree on the issue.
As for Russian nicknames, you just need to add “-ka” to any name to turn it into the pet form. So: Sheelka! 😉
Sashka, are we actually getting to see your softer side? 😉
p.s. Again, another issue which hits a little too close to home for me right now. Hence some strong words and even sarcasm, I get frustrated sometimes. No real nastiness intended, Froylein. I usually like what you have to say but am completely, diametrically opposed to your argument and am genuinely shocked & somewhat confused by your line of reasoning. But I mean no disrespect.
And unfortunately i don’t have a cool Russian nickname like “Sashka” that you can scold me with.
😉
If I understand your above post correctly, you seem to think that:
1. Forcing a young adult — or any woman for that matter– to bring an unwanted pregnancy to term will somehow teach her and others like her a lesson in “responsibility.” Read up on some of the many heartbreaking news stories of abandoned, neglected, abused or murdered children throughout the U.S. and abroad and tell me exactly what “lesson” has been learned.
2. The majority of abortions in the U.S. are performed out of “convenience.” You back up this assertion with alleged statistics from the Federal Ministry of Health in (presumably) Germany, as well as anecdotal evidence from “people you know.” You somehow are willing to then make a sweeping judgement over every woman who chooses to have an abortion, even those who live in countries/societies/circumstances way different from your own.
3. All disorders/diseases detected through pre-natal testing are treatable. Wow. You already have a treatment for Fragile X syndrome, autism, SB, Downs’ syndrome, Tay Sachs, Canavan disease, CF, Riley Day, Gaucher disease? You obviously know something the rest of the scientific community doesn’t. Please share your findings with us ASAP.
4. The slight risk of a miscarriage is reason enough not to undergo an amniocentesis. Again, you must know something the rest of us don’t. Here in the U.S. this test is not only available and fully covered, it is strongly recommended to any woman over 35 by her OB-GYN.
5. A woman willing to bring her pregnancy to term no matter what the cost to herself and her baby-to-be somehow has more “love” than the woman who chooses not to. I think it takes a lot of cojones to make such a claim.
5. Volunteering some of your time with handicapped children makes you the authority on what it takes to birth, raise and dedicate every waking hour of your entire life caring for a handicapped child. And that any woman not up to this (in your eyes) “simple” challenge is selfish, irresponsible and approaches motherhood the same way as shopping for a designer handbag. (Why don’t you adopt one of those handicapped children you work with in your “leisure time”, if it’s nothing more to you than a “realization that if you’re determined to make something happen, it might well work out.”)
6. There are social services are on virtually every street corner brimming with funds and resources to care for children unable for whatever reason to obtain proper care in their own homes. I respectfully suggest that you spend less time in the Brooklyn Yellow Pages and more time in the Brooklyn streets to see the concrete reality (no pun intended there, sorry).
7. “The only demographics that I know politically oppose abortions are those that are willing and have shown to put up with a lot of kids.” Catholics, Christian Fundamentalists and ultra-Orthodox Jews, mainly. And their opposition has more to do with strict Biblical interpretations than individual ideas of right and wrong, or (heaven forbid!) sound science. And I could name more than a few from those same demographics who have broken with the party line and come to their own conclusions about a woman’s right to choose, in every other respect remaining faithful to that demographic.
I really have no use for the straw-man argument that people have to take responsibility for their actions. That is not what the battle for reproductive rights is about. I have NEVER known a woman to have an abortion simply because it interferes with her lifestyle, or because her baby might not turn out to be the perfectly-formed beauty she’d hoped for. But hypothetically speaking, if such a monster did indeed exist, I’d be damned if I let her be the reason that hundreds of women who really are in need of that alternative would be unable to have it.
Froylien, thanks for the shout out. 🙂 Actually, there is a local Jewish organization called JARC (http://www.jarc.org/) in Michigan that many of our family friends with medical businesses contribute to or assist with. Even the org my sister works for, and a client of mine, the JFS of Ann Arbor has assistance for the handicapped and disabled.
Comments are kept in moderation if certain key words set off the filter. We’re not online 24/7, so we’re sorry if moderation is delayed.
I feel sorry for the company you keep.
I feel sorry for the moral state of many people in general. However, I stated those are people I know that had abortions, I didn’t say I considered them my friends, I didn’t say I did not.
It is not up to an anonymous body of government (or a self-righteous bystander) to decide what your actions should be, no matter how “irresponsible†they may appear to some.
I was actually talking about individual responsibility stemming out of maturity, not governmental interference.
“abortions out of convenience are immature. According to statistics, they make up the largest rate of abortions.â€
Really? Where? And according to who?
According to our Federal Ministry of Health, which publishes the statistics every year.
Excuse me??? Are you suggesting one of the most basic, natural functions of human beings should be a luxury permitted only to those of a certain economic class, physical health percentile, or IQ rating?
I am suggesting people should act responsibly, whatever that entails. I am suggesting that responsible behaviour is expectable of both, mature men and women.
BTW, a lot of people with little income, bad health and an assumed low IQ have raised children that turned out absolutely fine, and I consider it strange to suggest that the above qualities need be fulfilled to properly raise a child.
“pre-natal testing might only determine whether a child is possibly handicapped, but not to what degreeâ€
Uh, no, that’s patently false. Pre-natal testing is required in the U.S. to flag possible dangerous or even fatal genetic disorders that in a best-case scenario would result in a lifetime of physical pain and great suffering for the victim. And yet some people would legislate that fate for an individual they have never met, simply because of their idea of what constitutes a “soul.â€
I don’t really see how your comment contradicts mine contextually, but I go by what medical professionals over here say where pre-natal testings are not mandatory (are covered by health insurances though if desired) so they need not represent a certain policy but rather their scientific insights, which apparently tell even the most atheist ones I’ve talked to (which include a professor of gynaecology) that pre-natal testing does not give you the slightest clue about the severeness of a handicap, just tells you about the possibility there might be a handicap. If there is a risk of 1:1,000 of a miscarriage (and higher risks for harming the fetus even) it would be reason enough for me not to do it. I’m not doing a healthy child a favour by exposing it to such risks. Compare, the chance of hitting our national lottery is 1:140,000,000, yet every other week somebody hits the jackpot.
That comment, and what followed, is so way-off mark I don’t even know where to begin. There is a world of difference between a “handicapped†child and a child stricken with a severely painful degenerative disease that will not live past his/her 5th birthday.
Again, as independent science tells me, there’s no certain way of knowing, and those diseases that can be determined through sonogrammes are also ones that can be treated pre-natally.
There’s also a world of difference between choosing not to carry a pregnancy to term because you know the baby-to-be will have said disease, and seeing your child as as an “accessory†or an “It-bag.â€
I agree, but the vast majority of abortions doesn’t happen based on a eugenic indication.
And it’s quite easy to say raising a handicapped child requires nothing more than love and patience. It takes a LOT more than that. A LOT more.
I said it requires a lot of love and patience, not that it doesn’t require anything beyond that. It requires a lot of love to say, “Even if you cause me a great more deal of work than a “healthy” child, even if you should leave me before your time, even if I need to be more considerate of your needs as I’d need to be of other children’s, you’re precious enough to me to walk the extra mile.” BTW, I’ve volunteered to work with multiply handicapped children in an integrative leisure time project. The main difference between the handicapped and the “healthy” kids is that you need more patience with the former as they take more time or assistance, depending on the type of handicap, to deal with routine procedures.
“In Israel, the Keren Malki foundation does a great job in providing help to families that raise handicapped kids. There are many more organisations like that.â€
Lovely. That’s in Israel.
I’d be surprised to learn there aren’t any comparable organisations in the US, particularly since HASC has done a lot of publicity work, and I shouldn’t be surprised if ob-gyns and community social workers knew a list of such organisations off the top of their heads. Even community organizers might.
Where people who have obviously either never been pregnant and faced such a terrifying decision, or live in an economic bracket and community where such difficult and painful decisions are too foreign to comprehend and worry about, want to make decisions for the rest of us, who live in a reality vastly different from their own.
The only demographics that I know politically oppose abortions are those that are willing and have shown to put up with a lot of kids. That men in those circles cannot get pregnant does not mean they cannot sympathize with the needs of pregnant women.
BTW, compared to 6 billion people on this planet, everybody in the US lives in an economic bracket. Maybe such decisions aren’t too foreign to comprehend and worry about. Maybe they are just based on the realization that if you’re determined to make something happen, it might well work out. A lot of wealthy people in the US started off poor. Class lines are permeable. Alex’ family, as he’s occasionally pointed out, arrived as immigrants with next to nothing to rest their feet on, yet his parents were determined to succeed in the environment they chose to live in and provide a good life for their children. And those were people coming from a different language and cultural background that did not benefit from policies that would grant them several advantages just because they were minorities. I know a few Latinas over there that work their butts off to provide for their kids. I wasn’t aware class struggle was still alive and thriving in the US in so much that there’s not only equality of opportunities there but thanks to governmental interference (women / ethnic minority quotas, affirmative action etc.) equality of outcome. I must have mixed up the US with Czarist Russia. Me bad.
Hello, with all due respect to the moderators, why is my comment still awaiting moderation? There was nothing even remotely offensive in my reply.
When Barack recently said, “I don’t want my daughters punished with children” said all you needed to know about the the far left.
In the former country I came from, abortion WAS birth control. And since everyone was secular and since Russians consider the body nothing more than a collection of cells and atoms, no one gave a crap. Who knows how many potential brothers, sisters, cousins, etc., I could of had. I don’t care either way. I’m here, they’re not.
“All people I know that have had abortions had them out of convenience. They had unprotected intercourse, too. All of them are financially well-off, university educated women. That have been raised believing they can always have things their way, but societies do not work that way.”
I feel sorry for the company you keep.
“You have to be responsible for what you do if you want to be an adult. That is being emancipated.”
My point exactly. YOU have to take responsibility for your actions. It is not up to an anonymous body of government (or a self-righteous bystander) to decide what your actions should be, no matter how “irresponsible” they may appear to some.
“abortions out of convenience are immature. According to statistics, they make up the largest rate of abortions.”
Really? Where? And according to who?
“So, don’t have sex if you cannot suffer the consequences.”
Excuse me??? Are you suggesting one of the most basic, natural functions of human beings should be a luxury permitted only to those of a certain economic class, physical health percentile, or IQ rating?
“pre-natal testing might only determine whether a child is possibly handicapped, but not to what degree”
Uh, no, that’s patently false. Pre-natal testing is required in the U.S. to flag possible dangerous or even fatal genetic disorders that in a best-case scenario would result in a lifetime of physical pain and great suffering for the victim. And yet some people would legislate that fate for an individual they have never met, simply because of their idea of what constitutes a “soul.”
“the testing procedure as such is possibly harmful to the fetus as a long needle needs to get inserted into the uterus.”
The risk of a miscarriage in an amniocentesis is one in a thousand. I’m willing to take that risk if it can help ensure the health and well-being of my baby.
“t is possible to raise handicapped kids, but it requires love and patience. Doesn’t work well in societies where kids have become the latest accessory to complement “It-â€bags”
That comment, and what followed, is so way-off mark I don’t even know where to begin. There is a world of difference between a “handicapped” child and a child stricken with a severely painful degenerative disease that will not live past his/her 5th birthday. There’s also a world of difference between choosing not to carry a pregnancy to term because you know the baby-to-be will have said disease, and seeing your child as as an “accessory” or an “It-bag.” And it’s quite easy to say raising a handicapped child requires nothing more than love and patience. It takes a LOT more than that. A LOT more.
“In Israel, the Keren Malki foundation does a great job in providing help to families that raise handicapped kids. There are many more organisations like that.”
Lovely. That’s in Israel. We’re talking about the United States. Where people who have obviously either never been pregnant and faced such a terrifying decision, or live in an economic bracket and community where such difficult and painful decisions are too foreign to comprehend and worry about, want to make decisions for the rest of us, who live in a reality vastly different from their own.
As for abortions and when a fetus becomes a human being, there’s a multitude of opinions among Jewish Orthodoxy alone, many concerned with the question of when the fetus starts having a soul. The most conservative yet theologically most fathomable is that since in conception / procreation humans are the closest they can get to godliness and God + his creation that analogously, as the “Spirit of God was hovering above the waters†(Gen 1,2), a fetus isn’t only equipped with a soul from the start, but it is part of a divine plan, possibly having a soul assigned to it before it turns into flesh (a concept Christianity adopted). Additionally, in the most conservative line of thought, a man and a woman may only have sexual intercourse with the intention of procreating. As Rabbi Yonah rightly states, religious Judaism believes abortion is permissible under certain rigid conditions. More recent explanations and reasonings have been less strict, and an obvious attempt at attracting a larger following by being extraordinarily lenient on abortion and other such issues of severe personal impact by certain affiliations in Judaism cannot be denied. I’m secular, but I can understand why many Chasidim wonder why people call themselves Jews if they forego core and original Jewish values.
All people I know that have had abortions had them out of convenience. They had unprotected intercourse, too. All of them are financially well-off, university educated women. That have been raised believing they can always have things their way, but societies do not work that way. You have to be responsible for what you do if you want to be an adult. That is being emancipated. If immaturity can be defined as not considering what consequences your actions may have or not living up to your responsibility, then abortions out of convenience are immature. According to statistics, they make up the largest rate of abortions. So, don’t have sex if you cannot suffer the consequences. Or opt for different sexual techniques. Vocal cords can’t get pregnant. Also, pre-natal testing might only determine whether a child is possibly handicapped, but not to what degree and the testing procedure as such is possibly harmful to the fetus as a long needle needs to get inserted into the uterus. Those handicaps that can be determined in sonogrammes can usually also be treated pre-natally. It is possible to raise handicapped kids, but it requires love and patience. Doesn’t work well in societies where kids have become the latest accessory to complement “It-“bags. Handicapped kids often are not “cute”; they don’t give witty replies, they drool, they need more time than other kids to learn how to eat, they need more assistance with getting dressed – but they give lots of genuine love. And I find the notion that they are nothing but inconveniencing greatly disturbing. In Israel, the Keren Malki foundation does a great job in providing help to families that raise handicapped kids. There are many more organisations like that.
There’s a considerable rate of women that remain infertile after abortions. Also, the morning-after-pill is illegal in many European countries as it has shown to comparatively often bring about several drastic side-effects. Also, the plethora of abortion clinics advertizing in the Brooklyn yellow pages tell me it’s not so much a private matter and a tough choice to many but rather a socially “expectable” convenience. And I find it particularly striking that the demography leaning to veganism out of concern for animals – even though their man-made material shoes kill more animals in the countries where those are produced – promote abortion, again, not as a medical necessity, but as a convenience. BTW, in many states it’s legal that aborted fetuses are turned into cosmetics. In other states aborted calves are used, but that practice has been greatly protested because of being too cruel to the unborn calves. Which I will agree on. But I won’t condone of the obvious hypocrisy. On the same note, I think law enforcement needs to be stricter with fathers not paying child support. Everybody in the Western world can learn about the proper use of contraceptives and what risks there are if they are not used properly. Condoms don’t so much break as that they slip as condom manufacturers share their regret over polled customers not telling them their real size and men tending to buy too large condoms. Also, women are only fertile a few days per month maximum. The Talmud tells us that the difference between human beings and animals is humans’ ability to say, “No.†But selling off irresponsible behaviour as a tough choice is nothing I’ll buy into.Not from what I’ve seen, and the way higher abortion rates in the US compared to Germany tell me it’s not about financing kids either as wealth is comparable in both countries, but about the different mindsets of societies in both. And in Germany kids already don’t count much in comparison to other European states.
She was for the bridge before she was against the bridge! Did it work for Kerry?
Oprah will send Shmuely Boteach in to advise President Obama, no worries.
Yep, I was wrong…good thing I never practiced Criminal Law. Funny how you guys knew those ages off the top of your head….
Rabbi,
Thanks for your very candid retort. I take back many of my assumptions, though I still feel wholeheartedly that you’re backing the wrong horse.
How I wish abortion wasn’t a governmental issue. I can’t stand that my tax dollars pay for careless behavior for people I don’t know, but on the other hand, I’m happy I won’t have to put a cap into that unwanted kid breaking into my house either. I personally believe that a person isn’t technically a person until the third trimester. At least if this was legislated on a state by state basis, like sodomy, people could “take a weekend trip” and the red staters can be sad from a distance.
Statutory rape is a crime that does not require criminal intent. That’s why they call under age girls “jail bait” .
HOWEVER, luckily for Palin, in the enlightened state of Alaska the Statutory Rape Laws are :
Alaska § 11. 41. 434
First-degree sexual abuse of a minor for someone age 16 or older to engage in sexual penetration with someone under age 13. Up to 30 years in prison.
.436
Second-degree sexual abuse of a minor for someone age 16 or older to engage in sexual penetration with someone who is age 13, 14, or 15 and at least three years younger than the offender. Up to 10 years in prison.
.440
Fourth-degree sexual abuse of a minor for someone under age 16 to engage in sexual penetration with someone under age 13 and at least three years younger. Up to one year in prison.
Whereas in the heathen den of sin that is New York the laws are:
§§130. 25, 130. 30, and 130. 35
Third-degree rape for anyone age 21 or older to have sexual intercourse with someone under age 17. Up to four years in prison.
Second-degree rape for anyone age 18 or older to engage in sexual intercourse with someone under age 15. The fact that the offender was less than four years older than the victim at the time of the act is an affirmative defense. Up to 7 years in prison.
First-degree rape to have sexual intercourse with someone (1) less than age 11 or (2) less than age 13 if the actor is age 18 or older. Five to 25 years in prison.
In ARIZONA>>the State that had the honor of putting McCain over the top:
Arizona § 13-1405
Sexual conduct with a minor to engage in sexual intercourse with someone under age 18.
(1) If the minor is under age 15, five years in prison; (2) if the offender is at least age 18 or is tried as an adult and the minor was age 12 or younger, life in prison and the offender is ineligible for release until serving 35 years; (3) if the offender is at least 18 or tried as an adult and the victim is age 12, 13, or 14, the presumptive sentence is 20 years; or (4) if the minor is at least age 15, it is punishable by one year in prison
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm
Sounds like your abortion views are more pro-life than pro-choice, Rabbi, so your conclusion (which I gather is endorsing the Roe regime) is a curious one.
Adam,
You could ignore us and we would be sad.
I don’t want socialized medicine, and either does Obama or McCain, so don’t worry.
I am worried that OBAMA has few Jewish advisers. The he is perceived as weak on support for Israel. This concerns me very much. Bush and Clinton had many Jewish advisers – but just because they are Jewish doesn’t mean they always give good advice.
I remember when Reagan sold advanced AIWACs to the Saudis. The most advanced radar ships in the world given to a country that hates Israel. And now everyone talks about Reagan the best for Israel. It was not so clearcut, then and now.
And Iraq and Sadaam – who backed them? Who created them? The Republicans. Reagan. I remember when Donald Rumsfeld visited Sadaam, and the support that the US poured into Iraq in order to try to defeat the Iranians. (And I remember the failure of the worst president in history, Carter, to end the Iranian crisis)
I guess what I am saying is that both Dems and Republicans can fail Israel. But our biggest failures in Israel are our own.
__
What I want is for people to be vetted, for there to be a serious alternative to Biden. For People to accept that Palin is a lousy choice.
Does it not put into doubt McCains ability to make good decisions – beyond smart political moves? Palin is a phony. She hired an administrator to run her tiny Alaskan town because she could not. She uses chartered private airplanes instead of the one she sold. She ran her tiny town into debt.
Yes. Palin is politics. They will keep her locked up, she will never get near the reporters. It is like Dan Quail all over again.
I am not in love with Obama. In fact, if you look at my blog from last spring, April 2007, I pointed out major failings of Obamas first televised debate.
This blog needs people like you Adam, though we may disagree.
As far what my beliefs are about Abortion and Creationism:
Judaism allows for abortion 1) when the womans life is at risk – even at the moment of birth a fetus can be killed to save the mother 2) in cases of rape during the first month 3) other cases which are too detailed to get into. The point is that Abortion – while I don’t go around with a Pro-Choice button – is legal in Judaism and needs to remain legal in America. If it become illegal, then even in cases where Judaism would permit it, we would not have access to it. A baby is not a baby until it is a baby.
And about creationism – God created the world. I am not afraid of Darwinism, and don’t mind if my children learn that theory. Because God is certainly big enough to have designed whatever system God wanted .
And the reason that you NEED TO BE PART OF THE FESTIVAL is because if you want to influence other people with your ideas, then sharpen your arguments and get working on the people that will be at Jewlicious. As you know- we have many opinions there, more than ANY other Jewish gathering.
I’m not here to tell you why McCain is so great. But if you want to know, it’s precisely because he’s not Obama. McCain is willing to come to the center for America. Obama wants to bring America to the far left. That is idiotic.
I think mine’s in the spam filter again. Thanks.
Whoa, whoa. Please, I’m not pro-Republican. I’m conservative/libertarian leaning and passionately against socialism, communism, totalitarianism, Islamic fundamentalism, terrorism, anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, and a whole bunch of other -isms. I’ve never given nor received a penny to or from the GOP, and I voted for Gore in 2000 (I was clueless at the time, but I digress). There’s plenty to disagree with in the Republican party’ objectives but as you, and you should be happy about McCain and Palin, because unlike your golden boy and his mentor, they’ve gone against their party numerous times. You all loved McCain when he did this, but now that he’s attacking your guys, he’s Bush in your eyes. Anyway, I vote for the lesser of two evils and in this case, I’m not about to hand the keys to a 44 year old man-child, community organizer, populist messiah, domestic terrorist friend having, ivy league lawyer elitist, BLT believing, race baiting, double talking, tax and spend fringe liberal, popularity content winner. Nope, I’ll vote for a guy who suffered for his country, because that’s what I expect a real public servant to do. I’m certainly not going to do, but I respect someone who did.
By the way, I agree a lot with what Sheela said, except that I don’t understand how someone who wants to protect a person’s right to their body can even joke about mandatory vasectomies. How about this for abortion? We keep the government completely out of it. No legislation, and no entitlements. I don’t want to pay for someone’s poor judgment and I’m perfectly alright with them doing whatever they want with it.
I don’t think she hunts elk. She hunts moose and caribou. Elk are hard to find in Alaska. And less tasty.
Just sayin’.
TM: Alaska’s age of consent is not 14, it’s 16 as long as the older partner is not in a position of authority.
Chutzpah: What constitutes statutory rape differs from state to state, and it also sometimes differs on whether its straight sex or gay sex, but generally the age of consent in the US goes anywhere from 14 to 18, so you’re wrong legally. Morally I guess it would depend.
As for our posts being biased – well, I am sure they are. Bias is kinda unavoidable. But to be fair, we allow anyone to respond in the comments AND if Alex or Adam want to write a guest post on why McCain is so great, I’ll gladly run it.
Fair enough.
Let’s put it this way, I appreciate the substance…but the tone upsets me. It’s like visiting DK’s site any day of the week – you appreciate what he has to say, but just thinks he could say it a bit less…um…uppity?
You know, Middle– just a moment here to express appreciation for your work as Jewlicious’ community organizer. Have you thought of running for president?
No, I think the Presidency affects the Jewish world in many respects and we’re people with opinions like anybody else. I can’t speak to the writing style, but why should Yonah be prohibited from expressing his views? I can remind you that we offer numerous posts and if you find one offensive/boring, you can skip it and go directly to mine. 😉
There is clearly a difference between having an opinion, weaving it into posts vs blatantly opining on why McCain/Obama is essentially the second coming of Hitler, don’t you think?
What did Yonah’s post have anything to do with Judaism or Jewish culture?
Looks like 14 is Alaska’s age of consent, Middle.
Has anybody called this girl’s relationship statutory rape?
Brad, you do realize that none of us come from any particular school of thought and we don’t vet people who post here for their political allegiances. I had no idea what R. Yonah’s political leanings were when he joined us just as ck didn’t ask me mine when I joined. The blog is a collection of personal posts and you’re going to find that some are partisan and some less so. As Montana Urban Legend, Alex and Adam above can tell you, they have free reign to disagree with us as loud and long as they like. Since MUL is a staunch Obama fan and Alex and Adam are staunch Obama haters and pro-Republicans, don’t you think we’re doing a good job of opening the discussion to all?
I would find it boring if all we did was cover social and religious matters.
Having sex with a 17 year old girl constitutes Statutory Rape even if she begged for it. A 17 year old girl canNOT legally consent to sexual relations.
Palin’s failure to address the teen pregnancy CRISIS in this country while playing the “special needs child” fiddle was disgusting.
Hey Adam, you do yourself no favors by insulting people with whom you disagree politically. You seem to know R. Yonah and and ck personally, so I’d say that you’re really stepping over a line here. If you disagree, state your case and do it as firmly as you like. In my experience with both Yonah and Dave, they are both extremely open to people of all stripes. You should try to be as well, regardless of how frustrated you may be on a political level.
tm,
We are, of course, inherently political in everything we do.
It (meaning the partisan nature of many recent entries) unfortunately sours me on reading this wonderful blog, which I’ve come to know over the past 3 years.
I am especially troubled by anyone in the clergy openly endorsing political candidates…didn’t you guys learn from all that Rev. Wright stuff that you posted about?
Alex, don’t waste your time.
Rabbi Yonah is such an affirmative believer of creationism that he pays a lot of money to send his kids to private schools to have them taught it. I would also assume, if he holds the Torah view, that he is against abortion even for rape and incest….. unless the mothers life is in danger. (and danger by the Torah means REAL danger – you can’t just say, “oh well…. shell have some emotional issues…. so she’s psychologically in danger”)
Just like Obama probably will “support” public universities, even though he only went to private ones.
Both Rabbi Yonah and Obama support socialized health-care, even they themselves probably wouldn’t use it (in my opinion, based on who uses Canada’s state healthcare)
The limousine liberals are so arrogant and egotistical. They look down on everyone else. They’re EXTREMELY judgemental and bigoted against people who think differently.
They had NOTHING to say over Obama, but plenty to complain about over Palin…… purely because Obama is a liberal, and thats all that matters to them.
They really make me sick.
I’ve got issues with Palin over her environmental record. It’s really not good. I’ll say the negatives. The liberals won’t…… because before anything else, they’re liberals. That is what defines them as a person.
They can treat everyone else like crap. Treat their waitress, the postman, the bagger at the grocery store LIKE GARBAGE. But they think that being a liberal makes them go to heaven.
This blog has become a liberal stinkhole written by Jews. Its not pro-jewish culture, its not about cool Jewish stuff, its not reflective of the Jewish community.
I really don’t see how I can be a part of it. How can I volunteer for the “Jewlicious” Festival, when this is what it stands for?
I think my time coming to an end.
(and the market closed down 3% today)
Alex, the problems the Republicans are having go WAY beyond Jews not supporting them as a bloc. At some point the “lesser of two evils” approach breaks down and advantages those who consistently do an extraordinary job of campaigning until it becomes evident that they were too incompetent or unwilling to govern.
Pushing nationalism might be different from pushing communism, but at some point it might be worth it for the Republicans to develop an agenda that goes beyond ideology and actually dares to includes governing. Until then, it’s not all that clear that the Democratic nominees are hell-bent on committing mass murder of the Jews and stripping the rights of the survivors. I feel comfortable giving them the benefit of the doubt this year, and perhaps even next year if they achieve the detente that Republicans have, in their state of Alzheimer’s, forgotten the importance of. We can only throw so many missiles around the world and bomb so many countries into submission. At some point it’s important to realize that, unlike the Soviet Union, no one else has the opportunity to lead the world and to do that requires a little something called brainpower every now and then. There’s a time and a place for flipping off the other nations around the world. Bush/Cheney seem to have maxxed out their allotment of opportunities where that behavior represents the optimal course of action.
Actually, I think a smarter administration could have pulled off being just as hawkish but without fucking up every alliance we had.
Presidential elections in the U.S. have tended to be very close. For the most part, they reflect the (reported) results of the popular vote. There have been over 50 presidential elections since 1776 and only in a couple were the results in opposition to the popular vote.
The American system stems from the historically very strong role of the states under its federalist structure. As you know, the U.S. is large and there is much regional variation within it. The electoral college, whereby each state allocates (typically) all its votes to the victor of that state, encourages geographically broad campaigns. But it is equally argued to be anachronistic. In either case, it’s not going anywhere anytime soon and the inability of American politicians to weed out corruption in elections or to ensure foolproof voting machines with an impeccable margin of accuracy lend the system an added advantage, given how close the races tend to be.
Abortion is accepted in Reform Judaism. That Palin is against it even in the case of rape and incest makes me question not only the compatibility of her policymaking with traditional Jewish values, but her very humanity. As I understand it, in Judaism the life of the mother ALWAYS takes precedence over the life of a fetus.
I also have to take great exception to this idea that all abortions are the result of kids being “irresponsible,” and that to keep it safe and legal would somehow condone reckless “juvenile” behavior at the expense of a baby’s life. Ridiculous. For starters, do you think a fetus would be better off if forcibly brought to term and be born into such a careless and reckless environment? Funny how opponents of abortion are always MIA once the proverbial muffin’s actually out of the oven, when people financially/physically/mentally unable to take care of their baby desperately need help the most.
Next, if people are so concerned with the results of “reckless behavior,” why isn’t there a proposal for mandatory vasectomies in men who can’t keep it in their pants? (Sounds like the rantings of an old, bitter feminist, but believe it or not it was my handsome & virile husband who came up with that one.)
Lastly, has it ever occurred to any of you that condoms break, IUD’s fail, family members fall ill or die, throwing an already poverty-stressed family into further dire straits & unable to support another mouth to feed? Are you aware that sometimes all the tests/bloodwork that’s done on an expectant mother sometimes yield unexpected and horrifying results?
Would you want to be the one to have to say, “Sorry Ma’am, your unborn child’s tested positive for Tay-Sachs/Downs Syndrome/Spina Bifida and even if there’s a miracle and he does make it past his 5th birthday he will never function as other children do and will need round-the -clock care for his entire life, regardless of your financila situation… but you have to bring this pregnancy to term anyway because that’s the law.. oh and who’s your insurance carrier so we can bill them for delivery?”
Abortion is NEVER an easy choice to make. I pray none of you or someone you love find yourself having to make that chloice.
But Gd forbid if we ever have that choice taken from us.
Alex, the Republicans have a deep friendship with the Saudis. Neither party has a monopoly on friendship with Israel or Israel’s enemies. This is how it should be since national interests trump friendships and it’s in our interest to be friendly with both sides.
You should stop hanging around “yentas” and you might become less angry.
If you want to include yourself in “some of the bloggers here”, by all means, please go ahead. It’s not like groups of Jews haven’t made poor decisions in the past. It usually happens when critical thinking is thrown away for age-old loyalties to a party that has already turned their back on your and welcomes your enemies with open arms.
It’s just great watching Jews exasperate over a chump who mingles with anti-Semites, who ignores Islamic fundamentalism, who wants to talk to our and Israel’s enemies without preconditions, and who flip-flops on every issue concerning Jews. By all means, please, please follow your pied piper back to the type of country your grandparents and great grandparents escaped from. I mean, Jews were sooooo right backing the communists, while they were oppressing Jews. They’ve got to right about electing a Community Organizer who talks big and delivers little, who has barely any experience and who’s popped out of nowhere only to become a media darling. A media who is overwhelmingly biased and who is having a great time explaining how “real” feminists or successful women can only be Democrats and how no liberal can be a sexist or a racist. But, but, we’re liberals! We CAN’T be sexist. Only the knuckle dragging rubes of the Republican party can be so stereotypically pigeonholed. Please, keep it up by all means. I LOVE when intelligent gentiles ask me how Jews can be so smart and so stupid at the same time. At some point, it becomes a futile task. Oh we’re so terrified of Christians we’ve forgotten who our real enemies are. Only the right still talks about 9-11 and Islamic Terrorism. The worldly Democrats are so cosmo that they can’t mention it, at least that’s what I’d like the think. The truth is, they’ve already forgot about it. And you can thank GW for that while you go bash his legacy. Trust me, I’m no Republican, I’m an anti-Democrat. I had to sit next to 8 yentas last night decrying how horrible Palin is as a person and what a saint Barack is. Despicable.
It’s clear that we, the posters of Jewlicious, are nowhere near as smart as Alex.
Sashka!
The Federal Chancellor of Germany has not always been elected with all of their party’s votes. Also, the head of Bundestag more or less is a set of people from all parties, with one of the ruling parties’ being the top-head, so to speak. The Federal Chancellor is head of the executive only and may be member of Bundestag (usually is).
The meaningful distinction between a direct and an indirect vote cast for the head-of-state was that according to what was on the news, the Electoral College’s votes in 2000 did not represent the general public’s votes.
I was going to waste my time refuting some of Rabbi’s points, some I was going to agree with him on, but mostly, I was going to say, “So?”, but then I thought, I can really help out a man of g-d who mixes religion and politics so casually. Rabbi, you only needed one reason above:
1. She’s Republican.
Come on, after that reason, do you really need any others?
You hate her because your parents hate her (because she is a Republican), and your grandparents hate her (because she is a Republican), and your great-grandparents probably wouldn’t hate her, because they came to America to escape the kinds of places that Barack the Populist dreams about.
And I have to agree with Froylien, since when is abortion endorsed in Judaism? I may have grown up an agnostic reformer, but I know plenty of Orthodox and Conservatives that I know abortion is not an option that most rabbis would recommend, except in cases like rape and incest obviously. And I complete disagree with Palin on that point as well. I think humans are over-rated, by all means, kill all of the babies you need. Most unwanted children turn out to be losers anyway and I don’t see lines for adoption in front of abortion clinics either. But seriously Rabbi, do you really think it is wise for a man of g-d to be involved with such politics?
I fully agree with Brad. What was left of my respect for the intelligence of some bloggers here, has quickly vanished. All that’s left is the humor of the hypocrisy of them calling others close-minded. 🙂
Brad, Jews aren’t political? Or is it that we’re supposed to remain impartial?
Same as in America, Froylein. Still has nothing to do with the distinction between presidential and parliamentary systems.
In presidential systems, the executive is popularly elected by the people at large (or by their electors, not a very meaningful distinction) on a ticket containing the president and VP. His/her cabinet members need not come from congress. They usually don’t.
In parliamentary systems, the prime minister is chosen by the party that has the most representation in parliament – either on its own or as part of a coalition. Qualifications for ministers/secretaries don’t change the fact that the PM is the leader of a parliamentary system.
MUL, in Germany, ministers / secretaries of the executive need not be members of Bundestag. The green party even made it a principle for many years that none of their members could both be in office and in parliament.
Hoping against hope and trying against the obstacles, Tom. But I’m not too worried about the possibility that this election will turn on Obama’s abortion stance as one that is too far to the left.
Obama is smart. Both campaigns are targetting attacks for short periods of time in strategic markets in accordance with whatever issue is currently consuming the news cycle. Given Palin’s unpopularity with women based on her extremist stances (Nice try, John McCain!), I’m not too concerned that running this ad run will backfire on Obama. I’d be more concerned about the Republican aversion to reality in general backfiring on them. I really don’t think the electorate is as unsophisticated as it once was. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I’d really start focusing on the Republican attraction to fantasy-as-politics if I were you. Someone from the other side of the aisle has already upstaged them in that department – as well as in, and this is crucial, many others.
Well, McCain thinks Bristol Palin’s fiance, Levi Johnston (the boy who impregnated her), is an upstanding young man. So I suppose that should count for something, right?
First-pass-the-post has nothing to do with whether a political system is parliamentary or presidential. Whether the executive branch is directly elected or is derived from the legislature defines whether a political system if parliamentary or presidential. Britian is a parliamentary system; in fact, most such systems are named “Westminster” in homage to their roots within the British seat of government. Britian has a third party, the Liberal Democrats, who take up a sizable share of representation in parliament. There is no equivalent for a party with this much representation in the U.S. Congress.
These are facts.
I much prefer when you guys don’t get too political. It ruins your credibility as a Jewish blog.
MUL, I’m aware the USA’s electoral system favours a two-party system (I had to study Area / Cultural Studies of the English-speaking world as a mandatory part of my university education; the classes also included political systems). It compares to the British first-past-the-post system whereas in Germany we’ve got a system with elements of both, first-past-the-post (“direct representative”) as well as proportional representation (party lists; depending on how many seats a party gains, it can send people from that list into Landtag / Bundestag).
I think people should be more responsible when it comes to sex, including getting tested for STDs in between partners, but I’m aware that’s not en vogue. So grown up, yet so immature.
“[G]rappling with difficult ideas”? Must be a tough day over at Daily Kos.
One of last night’s most interesting gambits was revival of the experience argument against Obama– by comparing him, not to McCain, but to Palin. Palin enhances, rather than undermines, that argument.
Re abortion, Obama put a new radio ad on in Ohio slamming McCain’s abortion stand (actually mischaracterizing it as anti-abortion without exceptions). We’ll see how this issue plays out, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it turns out mostly to benefit McCain/Palin– especially since Obama is actually to the left of the abortion lobby on, e.g., ‘born-alive’ legislation.
Edits:
(First paragraph)
Instead of saying “changing to the facts to suit…”, I meant to say “changing the facts to suit his stubbornly eternal stances.”
(Third paragraph)
Instead of saying “because they are rebelling about the…” I should have said “because they are rebelling against the Puritan norms of American culture.”
Apologies.
First off, Froylein, Europe has parliamentary systems. In presidential systems, the two parties dominate and it is incredibly difficult for new or alternative political stances to make their way up through to the party leadership – no matter how urgent the need on the part of the electorate for a different political position to be considered. Hence, I’d gather that this is the reason for why Americans are so relieved at finally having a politician who can give constructive reasons for changing his mind as the facts change, rather than changing to the facts to suit his stubbornly eternal stances. Politics is not about theology. Nor should it be. I think Americans (and their culture) are finally coming to terms with this.
I think that using modifiers like “so” don’t really go so well with objective discussions. I’m no theologian, let alone a rabbi, but my understanding is that Judaism generally permits abortions – according to the tradition that holds that until 40 days post-conception the embryo is like “water”. I like this dictum because it conforms to our real-world understanding of biology. American Jews for the most part agree. Although the religious right wants to define conception as the beginning of personhood, it is nearly impossible to ascribe personhood to a biological particle that lacks any of the rudimentary prerequisites for personhood – i.e. no nerve cells – let alone a central nervous system with which to sense the world, its surroundings, pain, pleasure, self-awareness, etc.
People can rail against what they don’t like about culture all they want, but in my view, it’s absurd that a country can justify pulling the plug on a brain-dead, comatose person, but dictate that a woman submit her body to the state as a vessel for carrying a piece of biology that doesn’t even have a single nerve cell, let alone a brain that once used to function.
American youth obsess about hooking up, as you put it, because they are rebelling about the Puritan norms of American culture. You should feel relieved and lucky that Europeans generally have never had this problem. I sure would.
If people want to criticize a candidate, they’re certainly free to do so – whether they support that particular candidate or not. But I agree, American political discourse can be problematic. But as an American, however, it’s still the model I have to contend with.
My personal views aside, I’d like to add abortion is so anti-Judaism – the religion that officially only permits sexual intercourse during the possibly fertile days of women, that in its religious circles even often has weddings scheduled to coincide with the bride’s ovulation. On a side-note, even Jewish pop-culture events over there mostly seem to be about young people hooking up, in my perception awkwardly so, at that ignoring that many a dysfunctional family has been bred out of short courtship and that psychologists / family therapists and sociologists suggest that couples should not consider marriage before four years of being together when the hormonal rages that make one act irrationally in regards to one’s partner have subsided. It’s all good and nice to try to be hip and cool, but you can’t always have your cake and eat it.
MUL, why do people choose to forego the facts when it comes to their own candidates? Where’s the constructive criticism? Why all that revisionism I see? Maybe I’m too European, but journalists over here would shred a politician to pieces that appears to change his mind and affiliations as often as his underwear.
I’d add to the list:
11) Just a couple weeks ago, she quietly listened to the leader of Jews for Jesus give the sermon at her church, and her pastor passed the collection plate specifically to raise money for J4J.
12) She has almost zero experience abroad–didn’t even have a passport until last year.
I’d also point out that while Obama doesn’t have executive experience, he has tremendous experience at grappling with difficult ideas. He taught at one of the best law schools in the world (and, interestingly, the most conservative legitimate law school in America) for 12 years.
The irony is that in this election, opinions won’t serve as substitutes for facts.
So far Obama has served as the “chief executive officer” of an operation that successfully brought down the one of the strongest political machines in America and did so by raising more funds through individual contributions than any other in history. That’s just so far.
Perhaps at some point he might have to reckon with the superior morality of aiming to kill off the polar bears, playing hockey, lying about a political firing and turning the U.S. into the next petro-state, but that day does not yet seem to have arrived.
By what subterfuge has she gotten an 80% approval rating?
And froylein’s correct: if our esteemed rabbi deems Palin unqualified– whither Obama?
The irony is that her political and moral career is more impressive than the Democrat’s presidential candidate’s.