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Tznius Girls Are Hot!

17 years ago
82 Comments
by ck
1,508 Views
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…especially when they swing their arms!
Semgirl reports a well regarded Rabbi and Posek from a place that begins with “Lake” and ends with “Wood” put out a Tznius (modesty) CD in which he urged frum women to avoid swinging their arms while walking lest they inflame the passions of men nearby. This Rabbi also urged Yeshiva bochurs who are married to not be dropped off in front of the Yeshiva by their hottie wives because it distracts the boys inside. Semgirl also reports that girls in elementary school will be prohibited from wearing colorful hair clips. These were also deemed to be non-Tsniusdik as they distract the boys.

I said it before, and sadly i’ll say it again. I hate fucking Nazis. The Jewish people took a massive hit from the holocaust. We lost, amongst other things, several generations of strong, powerful Torah scholars, brilliant intellectuals who surely would have raised all of Klal Yisrael with their holiness and enlightened Torah learning. Instead they left us with undeniably lesser Torah leaders who focus on horniness inspiring swinging arms and hair bands while all around them, the state of Judaism becomes more and more fractured. We’re losing Jews every day. Those who are supposed to be at the vanguard of Jewish religious intellect simply pile humrah on top of humrah to make up for some kind of deficiency in their ability to think both analytically and creatively in the face of obvious injustices like the continuing Agunah problem, and obvious stupidities like swinging arms.

Please Rabbis, stop it. Stop wondering if strawberries are kosher. Please focus on important things. Yes, Tznius is important for both men and women but we all know that one may follow all the strictures of Tznius and still be immodest and provocative. God, you guys are like a parent that doesn’t realize how uncool they are and insist on dong and saying things that embarrass you in front of your friends.

“Daaaaaaad!”

ck
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ck

Founder and Publisher of Jewlicious, David Abitbol lives in Jerusalem with his wife, newborn daughter and toddler son. Blogging as "ck" he's been blocked on twitter by the right and the left, so he's doing something right.

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  • AN UPDATED TREATISE ON THE NEED FOR A SEMITIC MODERN MASTURBATION MENTALITY

    By Rabbi Moshe “hung so lo“ Rabeynu, Ph.d April 19, 2009
    comments

    CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS MUST BE INCULCATED AS TO THE BENEFITS OF MASTURBATION IN THE ATTAINMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF A HEALTHY MIND AND A HEALTHY BODY! PENT UP SEXUAL FRUSTRATION IN CHILDREN HAS NEVER BEEN HONESTLY AND ADEQUATELY DISCUSSED AND DEALT WITH IN JEWISH DISCOURSE AND DOCTRINE. HISTORICALLY, JEWISH PARENTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COPE WITH THEIR MASTURBATING CHILDREN BY ASSERTIONS THAT GOD IS OFFENDED BY THEIR ENGAGING IN THIS ACTIVITY AND THAT HE VEHEMENTLY FORBIDS THEM THE RESULTANT RELIEF AND COMFORT. HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE STARTED ON THE ROAD TO ATHEISM OR APOSTASY DUE TO THEIR PARENTS’ GROSS OVER-REACTION TO THEIR HARMLESS CHILDHOOD WANKERY? THE SCENARIO OF JEWISH PARENTS MOANING AND GROANING AND HARANGUING THEIR FRIGHTENED CHILDREN WITH THREATS OF GOD’S WRATH FOR MASTURBATING IS COMICAL AND TRAGIC AT THE SAME TIME. THEY MIGHT AS WELL TELL THEIR CHILDREN THAT GOD DOES NOT CONDONE THEIR SCRATCHING THEIR LITTLE ASSES IF THEY HAVE AN ITCH.
    MODERN LIFESTYLES AFFORD INDIVIDUALS THE PRIVACY AND HYGIENIC FACILITIES NECESSARY TO MASTURBATE IN A PRIVATE, DIGNIFIED AND SANITARY MANNER. ONE CAN WELL UNDERSTAND THE IRE THAT WAS ARO– USED BY MASTURBATING INDIVIDUALS FOUR THOUSAND YEARS AGO WHEN AN ENTIRE LARGE FAMILY LIVED TOGETHER IN A TENT IN AN ARID LOCATION. NOBODY WANTED TO HAVE A WAD OF FLYING JISSUM HIT HIM IN THE EYE OR LAND IN HIS HUMUS. WATER WAS SCARCE AND ONE HAD TO WALK , SOMETIMES LONG DISTANCES, TO THE WELL TO GET IT, IF IT WAS AVAILABLE AT ALL. UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES IT WAS A CHOICE OF WATER FOR DRINKING OR WATER FOR WASHING EJACULATE OFF OF ONE’S HANDS. THIS IS WHY THE EARLY SAGES WERE SO VOCIFEROUS IN THEIR CONDEMNATION OF MASTURBATION. WE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HORNY BUNCH AND, IF THERE WEREN’T THESE SEVERE STRICTURES AGAINST MASTURBATION AT THAT TIME, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ERRANT CUMSTAINS ALL OVER THE PLACE AND THE SMELL OF FRESHLY RELEASED JISSUM WOULD HAVE WAFTED FAR AND WIDE, EVEN WITHIN THE HALLOWED HALLWAYS OF THE SACRED TEMPLE ITSELF.
    TIMES HAVE CHANGED. IF PARENTS TODAY STRESS THE BENEFITS OF MASTURBATION TO THEIR CHILDREN, THEY WILL HELP LESSEN THE OCCURRENCE OF STDs, AND UNPLANNED PREGNANCIES. SCHOLARSHIP LEVELS WOULD INCREASE DRAMATICALLY WITH THE RELEASE OF PENT UP ADOLESCENT EJACULATORY TENSION. .WHAT PARENT HASN’T FRETTED AND WORRIED OVER THE MOODINESS AND SURLINESS OF HIS ADOLESCENT OFFSPRING? THERE IS REALLY NO MYSTERY AS TO WHY THE LITTLE BASTARDS ARE ACTING OUT SO WILDLY. THEIR HORMONES ARE CAUSING THEM HIGH LEVELS OF DISCOMFORT AND FRUSTRATION. INSTEAD OF MAKING THEM MASTURBATE FURTIVELY UNDER THE BEDCOVERS IN A NIGHTLY GUILT- RIDDEN FRENZY OF PENT-UP SEXUAL DESIRE, THEY SHOULD BE GUIDED TO A CIVILIZED AND GUILT-FREE MASTURBATORY REGIMEN. IF NECESSARY, PARENTS SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR THEIR CHILDREN AS TO THE PROPER METHODOLOGY FOR THIS ACTIVITY AND FOLLOW UP AND MAKE SURE THAT THEIR CHILDREN ARE MASTURBATING REGULARLY AT AN OPTIMUM FREQUENCY. KEEPING A MASTURBATION DIARY COULD BE A VERY — USEFUL TOOL IN MAINTAINING THE PROPER SCHEDULE. EVERY PARENT SHOULD ASK HIS CHILDREN ON A DAILY BASIS, “DID YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND MASTURBATE TODAY?”
    OH, OF COURSE, THE CHABADNIKS AND THE FRUMNIKS AND THE HAREDINIKS WILL YELL OUT, “BUT RAMBAM SAID THIS, AND RASHI SAID THAT AND RABBI AKIVA SAID THIS, AND THAT, ABOUT THE EVILS OF MASTURBATION.” PROBABLY ALL THREE OF THEM WERE MASTURBATING WHILE THEY WERE WRITING THESE STRICTURES, ANOTHER CASE OF “DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO”. WE MUST NOT CONTINUE TO LET OTHERS DO OUR THINKING FOR US UNDER THE GUISE OF DIVINE REVELATION AND RELIGIOUS EXPERTISE. WE CANNOT LET BACKWARD LOOKING ZEALOTS WITH THEIR ARCHAIC, OUTDATED AND ANACHRONISTIC MORALISTIC MISCONCEPTIONS CAST THEIR PALL OVER THE HEALTH-CONSCIOUS MASTURBATORS OF THE WORLD. WHAT WAS LOOKED UPON AS A SHONDER FOUR THOUSAND YEARS AGO BY UNENLIGHTENED MENTALITIES SHOULD NOT BE SO DENIGRATED IN THESE MODERN TIMES. THE BLESSINGS OF MASTURBATORY RELIEF SHOULD BE LOOKED UPON AS THE BIRTHRIGHT OF ALL B’NEI ADAM. SHALOM AND ZEI GEZUNT!

    Rabbi Rabeynu is available for additional advice and discussion on http://theyeshivabucher.blogspot.com

  • I have to say that this is really crazy. Women that follow halacha should be congradulated. But to not drop off someone cause your very good looking…. HASHEM MADE YOU THAT WAY.

    Shocking.

    If you need great 100% tznius clothing for ytour children, please feel free to contact us. We would be more than happy to answer any of your questions.

  • I agree with you in the point about restraint, but I believe its also something else. I believe that its a matter of availability. If someone can almost have something, but just cant seem to make the last jump to get it, shall want it even more. So too here I believe that since they cannot get even the slightest touch/interaction they are in a sense, deprived, and will immensely enjoy seeing a girl ‘swinging her arms.’
    Take the case of the guy jacking off under the table to a yoga magazine from above. He can be compared to a early teenage boy who just discovered the ability to jack off, and also the early feelings of attraction. This early teen will take any picture of a “hot” girl and get off to it. This chusid whatever is in the same scenario so to speak. He is deprived. Do you not think that if he had access to a porno he wouldnt use that? Same could be said for the young teen. He has not yet developed the immunity to his parents restrictions on what sites to access, and when just starting out if only has access to a yoga magazine then that he shall use. That and whatever flyer’s with underwear models he can get his little hands on.
    In response to your friends who did not get horny, many of which I know, are all products of either mixed Jewish schools, or if not then a community where mixed gatherings are accepted, even encouraged. They do not suffer from the same syndrome, for lack of a better title. They are accustomed to a girls presence, and by result do not get aroused from such trivial actions as swinging of the arms.

  • personally, I believe that if you are told that you will feel something, you will. It is all what you are told. For example, most people been brought up with the acknowledgment that if you like someone, you will have an urge to kiss/touch him or her. That passion to kiss is there because, as we grow up, that is the feeling that is instilled into our subconsciencness as kids.

    I believe that if these rabbis tell these bechorim that if they see a woman ‘swining her arms’ or wearing a brightly colored hairclip, the boys will become horny, I mean, I have many guy friends and none of them have become horny from the headband I have worn, or even the length of my skirt. I believe that it is the status quo that the rabbis have told the boys to follow, that makes the boys horny, therefore, the rabbis make the girls’ rules stricter

    Furthermore, I believe that if there is a case that the boys become horny, the rabbis shouldn’t put more rules on the girls, rather, they should be teaching the boys how to restrain themselves, after all that is the rule deoritta.

  • The joke really doesn’t work if the exact same spam post as Best Coffee Shops under Muscle and Fitness gets deleted.

    (Just makes me look deranged….)

  • OMG, Best Coffee Shops and Muscle And Fitness, the way you two think alike is SCARY. It’s like some kind of mind meld!! Seriously, this could be the start of something beautiful–how often do you meet someone who sees the world just the way you do? I’ll tell you–never! I mean, both of you couldn’t understand some parts, which is understandable (maybe for one of you it’s too much caffeine? And the other too many steroids?), yet you both were inexplicably drawn to the topic, finding it, and I quote: “interesting”. You practically used the same words!!

    If this isn’t jewlicious, deep-fried and sugar-coated bashert action happening, I don’t know what is! It’s really heartwarming. Thanks for two wonderful posts.

    Love and Kisses,
    Giyoret

  • Please consider that Jewish intellectuals (not those with Communist inclinations though) and scientists were welcomed abroad with arms wide-open – religious scholars were not. If you really want to go into the topic of the Holocaust, anti-Semitism and anti-Semite stereotypes as well as of the negative impact the Holocaust had on the cultural scene of Eastern Europe, there’s a wide array of books to be read and, more urgently, a highly limited number of survivors to be talked to.

    As for the tznius discussion, those rabbis / school deans that issue the rigid guidelines are paid with their congregants’ / pupils’ parents’ money. If as a consumer I’m dissatisfied with the service I get, I either look for a different supplier or try to find a way of complaining that might eventually prove effective.

  • Zahava – they’re not NK although they are on the East Coast. Weird. How come none of them are ever from L.A.? I say that because the modern Orthos and Lubavitchers here in the Midwest don’t create these kinds of stirs.

    They control entire communities and, as ck points out, a good chunk of Torah scholarship and teaching.

  • CK was clear about the nazi thing except that whn you rant against someone and then say ‘I hate…’, people will expect you to refer to who you were ranting about!
    anyway, I don’t think the Nazis have anything to do with the way some Rabbi’s are now. they’re probably Neturei Karta, or the kind of extremists who burn down pork-selling delis in Netanya, that are so shocked by swinging arms.
    but who can blame them, I mean- swinging arms- whoa!

  • Ladies – get a blog!

    I say that with more respect than you think. You both seem to have great insight into the places you come from and the paths you’ve chosen. I, for one, find your exchange insightful myself. And you both write well and with unique styles.

    Like, if Jewlicious and Jewschool merged.

  • My cousins have full blooded Jewish kids and they get to go to camps that don’t put 16 girls in one bunk with two toilets. They also get to go horseback riding (which can break a hymen, don’t ‘ya know). If their kid steps on a rusty nail on a Saturday they take them to the medical center for antibiotics …they don’t tell them “let’s wait until after shabbat because it’s not life-threatening”.

    Yes, a spiritual life is worth it…a life completely devoid of any common sense is not. Hairclips? Little girls wearing all black? Hiking in ankle length skirts…please…when are people going to realize that NJ does not command the same standard that living in the Old City near the Kotel does?

    Tonight I went with a girlfriend to an expensive restaurant because she knew I needed to get out of town. In walks the 19 year olds, she covered head to toe in black, he wearing a black hat, on a shidduch. They sit at a table and order coffee and water. The waitress was thrilled. They probably left her 1.00 tip and took up her table.

    I walk by in my silk spagetti strap camisole…at 43 I can incite lust in that young black hatter. Maybe if his date looked a little more enticing he wouldn’t have had to watch my ass all the way to the bathroom.

    I exercised tremendous self-restraint by not telling them to order the fabulous lobster nachos or amazing pork baby back ribs. Proud of me?

    Why did they have to be there? Because the view of the NY skyline was spectacular…did they look like freaks?Yes. Was the owner annoyed? Yes. What happened to the halaka of not misleading a shopkeeper by entering when you have no intention of buying? Oh, if the shopkeeper is a goy it’s ok. It was disgusting. The place specializes in their seafood…there is not one thing on the menu for them. It’s not an airport or a hotel lobby. It’s a restaurant that needs to turn over it’s tables to make money. They didn’t even order two whole apples. WTF? WTF? WTF?

    Oh, but it wouldn’t have been tznius for them to go to a kosher restaurant because then every one know who everyone else is dating….

    Enough JM, do not read or respond to my comments any more. Ortho Jews in America are crazy fools. I’m glad you are happy in your community…live and be well…it is not for me.

  • Chutzpah, three??

    Worth the knee socks. Worth the whole hoo ha. Existence! Yay! B”H sh’e assani… at all.

  • I could see the bit about not letting young husbands see whose wife might be better looking than theirs, especially the whole neighborhood, who are not personal friends. People are frail things and get so competitive. So stop a block away, not a terrible idea.

    But girls need colorful hair clips, imho. Loving beauty, being beauty, learning about beauty is part of being female imho. It leads to beautiful Shabbos tables, beautiful wedding dresses, attractive makeup and – more of us.

    As for arm swinging, leave that alone, I say. Not an issue.

    As for dancing – when is the next wedding? Maybe on the beach, or a rooftop at sunset. In six weeks, when the heat passes. Should be enough time to organize it.

  • Back to the original post….colorful hairclips and arm swinging to lead to ….as Esther might fear…God Forbid….dancing amongst our schoolgirls. Colorful hairclips and arm swinging have also been known to cause laughing, hopping, skipping and jumping amongst young girls…and we all know that laughing, hopping, skipping and jumping amongst young girls can lead to lustful thoughts in Jewish boys, men and pedofiles at large.

  • Green will do, or Earl Grey, if you have some lying around.

  • JM writes “Nazis did not scare Jews away from Judaism.” Which reminds me of how many bad quasi-religious movies I’ve seen where the protagonist has lost his/her faith in G-d from some past personal tragedy only to gain it back through plot devices.

    Which brings up Sherman Wine: The Nazis did cause some Holocaust and post-Holocaust era Jews to deny G-d. But they didn’t succeed in causing them to deny their heritage. In fact, the opposite. While some Jews convert to Christianity by choice they’re mostly professional golfers. But throughout history most conversions were by force. The Nazis, however, didn’t bother with conversion as Jews were a race rather than a religion. Like when Ephraim distinguished between being Jewish in the eyes of the Nazis vs. halacha.

    Ben-David makes a bunch of interesting and valid points. One, that the Holocaust made an important impact in how Jews navigate the “Post-Emancipation Western world” goes beyond the Charedi. I’m not stating fact, just personal opinion, that the idea of a Jewish identity based on heritage rather than faith in G-d and religious practice is the direct product of the Shoah. While we’ve always been known as a “people” it was the Holocaust that stripped away all artifice, style of clothing, synagogue membership, Sabbath observance, and in the face of annihilation exposed all who were Jews as such.

    http://ajcblog.org/2007/04/05/holocaust-memory-and-jewish-identity/

    So what Ben-David says is true on two levels. The Holocaust may have caused the Charedi to “Circle the wagons”. It also made every Jew since, born of a Jewish mother (and many I know of Jewish fathers) to identify themselves at least in part as Jewish. Including one well-known Scientologist:

    http://www.jewsrock.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=words.view&wordid=3FC1DBF2-9A54-4545-B7F31CC252768881

    That above rants were almost more directed at ck’s comment “What ever happened to that strain of Jewish thought that saw Jews as a community of fate and not just faith?”

    Well, I’m Jewish and I just thought it and it was a strain and now I have a headache. BTW ck, I didn’t know you were sick. Maybe JM can make you some soup? 🙂

  • JM…I have no control over my Ex. I do admit there are a lot worse places my kids could be than Orthodox SleepAway Camp, like the hospital or with their Stepmother, but there are thousands of better places I could think . I’m grateful that they are healthy and approach whatever life gives them with a positive attitude.

    But really, when are you going to realize that non-orthodox jews also reproduce? I’ll send you pictures of my nephews and cousins to prove it.

    Could I have had children if I didn’t marry the first guy that asked me? Don’t know.

  • Chutzpah, ok, but G-d is the ultimate site administrator, and reads absolutely everything. Mild acid is good mixed with olive oil on a salad, and strong acid destroys the plumbing; just saying. Every mother worries; it will be all right, they will know everything they need to know eventually; give it time. We didn’t know everything at their age either, give it time

  • Hey JM – I am indeed sefardi and your clarifications are correct. Thanks for the help.

  • Hey scummy from New York, welcome to Jewlicious. I take it that whenever you find yourself at a public Internet terminal you’ll be paying us a visit. As for your allegations, there’s been a bit of a buzz about that lately.

    I’ll tell you scummy (and never has such a designation been more appropriate) let’s say someone calls your mother a whore. The best response is no response because to debate the issue makes the notion of your mother being a sex trade worker one that is debatable. A debate immediately elevates the otherwise ludicrous idea.

    I would urge you to end this now. I would further urge you to read the Chofetz Chaim, I mean if you care about that sort of thing. Finally, only one of your allegations is true but you really, really don’t want to personally find out which.

  • I meant, CK, what?

    Chutzpah, ok, but please think. People are reading you all over the world.

    Not knowing much or even anything about Golda Meir and wearing knee socks is not the horror you think – look what it did for you – three kids. If your kids also have three apiece, your family is going to bury us all. If Paris is worth a mass, and it was, maybe descendants are worth knee socks.

    NO WAY would you allow your ex to put your kids anyplace bad.

  • We are allowed to disrespect anonymous people on the internet IF the site administrator allows it. The site administrator is the Ultimate Judge of the Universe when it comes to their space on the World Wide Web.

    I blog on another site and the rules are totally different there. We can talk about Sir Tom’s music, but not about his sex life. I would like to write about his sex life, but I am not allowed to do it in that Universe….I would have to choose to go someplace else to do that. The wonderful thing about the Internet is that you can jump from Universe to Universe and I highly doubt if God is reading any of it.

    Why don’t you have some fun today JM? Go someplace via the web that you couldn’t possibly even dare to imagine …it might take your mind out of the ghetto for a little while…enjoy!

  • Thank you JM and TM. You must realize that I vent my frustrations here. I ENJOY making an acid splash for the 10 or so people who may take the time to read my comments. Chutzpah is an alter-ego, a penname, someone whose shoes I wear for fun. That’s what writers do with their pent-up thoughts. If I had real guts I’d be like Sarah Silverman and take this routine into stand-up comedy. I TRY not to walk around in real-life saying these things, not even to my secular friends (although I slip-up occasionally).

    I don’t have to be pressed to say that I have been gifted many, many, many, many acts of kindness from Orthodox & Chassidic people. I have been taught many beautiful things by them. I will always love,respect, appreciate and admire the many friends have met along my journey.

    HOWEVER, I do believe the people my children are with and the environment they are in is dangerous, but I must co-parent with my Ex when it comes to where they are. I believe all forms of extreme fanaticism, zeolotry and religious ideology is ultimately harmful to both the individual and the world at large. I also believe it is what prevents the speedy coming of the Messiah.

  • ck is sephardic, that’s the only you have right. Other than that he’s not at all observant though he pretends to be. He’s a stalker, a psycho, a liar and a sick, dangerous man. Don’t let yourself be fooled by his bullshit.

  • Have some tea. But you can’t understand. I am not at all against self-criticism. There has to be respect in it.

    You can’t understand. Your ears are constructed differently and it is a wavelength you can’t hear. We are allowed to criticize all day but it must be for the sake of heaven, and we are not allowed to fundamentally disrespect a fellow Jew, particularly anonymous people who can’t answer.

  • Jewish Mother, with all due respect, your concerns are exagerrated. This is America, after all, not 16th century Poland. Israel’s there as an option for you, but you’re here, n’est-ce pas? The American Jewish community can survive a little self-criticism.

    To quote Sidney Greenstreet in ‘Maltese Falcon’, chutzpah is a character. I appreciate her way of bringing abstract discussions down to the level of daily life as experienced by real people, not caricatures.

  • CK only meant that the nazis took our best leaving us with weak leadership. He is just lamenting that some rabbis in his opinion are not doing very well. Whether he is right is beyond my expertise.

    I have the impression that CK, the site administrator here, is fully observant; Orthodox; in the Sefardi tradition. It is just an impression I get, from looking at the posts.

  • Chutzpah, you mean well, but you give a great deal of useful material – very well written, sharp, pungent, memorable, punchy, useable, – to people who will be the deadly enemies of your children, long after we are both gone. It is imprudent – and it is also unfair. If pressed, you concede that you have received good and kind treatment from many Orthodox and chassidic people. But good news is never good copy. You like to make a splash. You splash acid. You damn a whole group from one person – how fair is that?

    Nazis did not scare Jews away from Judaism.

    Some rabbis may be doing that. Or not. Maybe it depends.

    You would not put your “gorgeous girls” in a camp or school with these people if they were bad or bad for them.

    It’s one thing to complain, but it is another thing to light the ovens of the future, and I wish you would think.

    Just saying.

  • Gracie,
    Maybe they should wear burkas…please be careful about what you getting yourself involved in….

  • No, JM I just call it as I see it. My gorgeous girls are up at the compound rigtht now (Ortho sleep-away camp) being forced to deep-throat more religion than Linda Lovelace ever did cock.

    I’m not even going to mention that the way they pack the number of girls into one bunk house could only be rivaled by the Nazis talent for stacking Jews in concentration camps.

    What I think CK meant, albeit not that clearly this time (sorry), is that the Nazis were very controlling and scared Jews away from Judaism and that is, unfortunately, what many Rabbis are doing today.

  • While it’s debate-able whether the current crop of scholars are less wise than what would have been without the holocaust – the holocaust definitely had a powerful impact on the long-simmering discussion of how Jews should navigate the post-Emancipation Western world.

    The shock of the holocaust is directly related to the current circle-the-wagons mentality among the haredim. The holocaust justified/re-animated a wholesale rejection of the modern world that was already starting to seem inadequate in pre-WWII Europe.

    In addition, the holocaust forced many Ortho leaders to focus on rebuilding the Torah infrastructure that was lost – in Torah, too, you need “bush league” yeshivos to generate the pro players.

    That means numbers. And THAT translates directly into the haredi world’s insistence that all men learn Torah full time – a “reconstruction” of a reality that never existed in the largely subsistence-level shtetl economies of Eastern Europe.

    In many cases, these programs/trends were initiated by leaders who themselves were survivors, which explains their urgency and vehemence – and their unwillingness/inability to shift their focus forward into the present.

  • Hey ck – I responded to your comment (#22) but it seems to be caught up in “moderation” and hasn’t yet been approved by the Jewish Blog Association Of America and Canada – see if it’s somewhere in there… if not I’ll try and reconstruct it… in any case it was about how we’re more in agreement than not…

    “Prisoner Without A Name, Cell Without A Number” was the Timmerman memoir, which I should’ve referenced in the first place.

  • ck – Yeah, quantity can affect quality. In that sense my comparison between Hitler’s effect on the quality of Torah scholars and the prominent, groundbreaking scientists, artists, writers and athletes we have in spite of Shoah is not apples and oranges. Imagine how much more impact Jews would’ve had in those fields and disciplines if not for the Nazis. Not only in who was lost but the loss of what they had to pass on.

    But, in that “whatever doesn’t kill us makes us stronger” vein, I still don’t know if I think the connection between the Holocaust and the wackiness going on in Lakewood is as direct as you do; but it does bring up an interesting point of discussion.

    Although most people here probably know the Timmerman memoir I should’ve cited it: “Prisoner Without A Name, Cell Without A Number”.

  • I retract what I said about Nazis. ck explained that he was still pissed off at the Nazis for what they did. Not calling Rabbis Nazis.
    Pfew!

  • quantity can effect quality, dontcha think? Especially in the Yeshivah world were so much knowledge is passed on by actual teachers and not just books. This is especially important in areas where interpretation and guidance is necessary. a good rosh yeshiva exercises a tremendous influence on his pupils. Prior to the holocaust, the centers of Torah study were in Europe. I mean imagine the effect on scholarship if every Ivy League school, all its students and all its faculty, were to suddenly disappear? That’s what I’m talking about.

    Nice Primo Levi and Jacobo Tmmerman references btw. Both rank amongst my fave authors.

  • ck – I misunderstood you then. When you wrote “They left us with undeniably lesser Torah scholars” I read that as implying those who survived were “lesser”. My immediate thought – apples and oranges as it may have been – was of Primo Levi.

    To clarify, did you mean less rather than lesser? That there were so many fewer left to pass down their wisdom that we’re now in the situation we’re in with this generation?

    I’ve been re-reading Jacobo Timmerman’s memoir. In the foreward he describes the Ukrainian town his family came from and how when the Cossacks nearly wiped them out (the Nazis eventually did) the Rabbis’ response was that this “Had been imposed by G-d to herald the Messiah’s arrival.”

    I don’t know why that’s relevant; maybe in the sense of how much Torah study and interpretation has been influenced by the tragedies inflicted on us throughout time. But ck, I’m going to accept your reference to the Holocaust’s effect on religious scholars to be of quantity and not quality.

  • Maybe the girls need to be wearing Sleevies!

    Sleevies are an original product made for the religious market for girls and women who want to wear regular short sleeve T shirts, but still cover their elbows. They are sleeve add-ons that are comfortable and stay up and can coordinate with whatever you are wearing. Best of all, they are made in Israel!!

    Fashionable yet frum! Kool yet kosher!

    Check out this website http://www.sleevies.co.il

    Great idea!

  • Just North of Lakewood is a little shtetl called Passaic-Clifton. In this shtetl the Ortho. Jews required that all the covers of the magazines like Vogue, US, People, Cosmo and Lucky be covered with a black panels at the checkout counters at the new ACME supermarket or else they wouldn’t come in to buy Kosher food at the separate Kosher Deli Counter. Who knew that “People” needed to be treated as it were Porno?

    Now if they women could only keep their Husbands and Sons out of Barnes and Noble maybe they could control all the unecessary evil lustoful thoughts amongst Klal Yisroel. Unfortunately I caught a view of an old fat guy with a long beard in a black yarlmukle playing with himself under the table through his pants pocket while reading a “How to Do Yoga” book. YUCK!

    I really wish I made this stuff up, but I don’t. Maybe I should write a book called “Horror Stories from the Shtetl” because I’ve really seen much more than any modern woman should ever have to be exposed to. Somebody protect what I have to look at in this town!

    Next year, my 13 year old girl who goes to the more “modern” school will be required to wear knee socks. Just covering the ankle has been banned. Stop the madness!

  • Josh. Godwin’s law deals with comparisons to Nazis, not the mere mention of Nazis. To wit:

    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

    I merely made an assertion that the Holocaust was very bad for the Jews (duh!). I did not compare Rabbis to Nazis. My Nazi reference was not a comparison, nor was it inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Please read my post carefully.

    Seriously though, am I that bad a communicator? Because I keep reading and rereading what I wrote and nowhere do I see me comparing Nazis to anyone – and keep in mind, unnecessary Nazi analogies are one of my pet peeves.

  • CK, I’m surprised at you for this post and the raw attitude. The subject is taken out of context and the provocative you did it stifles discussion about the subject, not motivate, so I won’t bother to comment.

    And blatantly violating Godwin’s law by bringing up the Germans before the discussion starts…

  • Thanks for the clarification Jack, except I wouldn’t say our generation of Rabbis are schmucks – I’d say, as would they I believe, that we lost some great Torah geniuses and that the corpus of Rabbinic leadership has been diminished to this day as a result of the heinous Nazis.

    Friar Yid – I hear ya. I recall this story involving Rav Hayim of Brisk – the grandfather of Rabbi Soloveitchik. One Yom Kippur, before Kol Nidrei, he asked the community to desecrate Yom Kippur in order to raise the cash needed to save the life of a follower of the Bund from execution. The fact that the dude about to be executed was an atheist and opposed to religious Judaism didn’t matter.

    What ever happened to that strain of Jewish thought that saw Jews as a community of fate and not just faith?

    But yeah, I am getting off topic here. So in conclusion, Nazis suck for a multitude of reasons.

    And uh… in case it wasn’t clear I did not mean that the Rabbis are Nazis. Not even close. Do I really write that unclearly?

    Ramon – there are far less Torah Scholars in the world. Jews inclined towards science could always find top-notch mentors and teachers, both Jewish and non-Jewish. There is no doubt that after the Holocaust, Torah Scholarship suffered tremendously. Apples and Oranges my friend.

  • The Jewish people took a massive hit from the holocaust. We lost, amongst other things, several generations of strong, powerful Torah scholars, brilliant intellectuals who surely would have raised all of Klal Yisrael with their holiness and enlightened Torah learning. Instead they left us with undeniably lesser Torah leaders who focus on horniness inspiring swinging arms and hair bands while all around them, the state of Judaism becomes more and more fractured.

    Another thing the Nazis did was deprive later-day-Jews of the secular Yiddish renaissance that was beginning to develop in the 20s and 30s in Poland and the USSR. A lot of the greatest Yiddish and Hebrew writers were former yeshiva scholars that become bored or disillusioned and turned to other matters. Among other things, their direct experiences with Orthodoxy meant that they were a lot more comfortable with their own levels of observance (or lack thereof), and had a greater degree of cross-cultural access and potentially legitimacy among their former Orthodox Jews. Today the great secular Jewish writers, especially those who treat Orthodoxy with irreverence, are either unknown or persona non grata among the Orthodox, and I’d say, vice-versa. Part of the beauty of pre-WWII Europe was that you had this fascinating mosaic going on of politics, religion and literature, all somehow managing to coexist with a surprising lack of violent friction.

    Which is to say, another reason to hate the Nazis is that they took away the rabbis and the writers, but at least the rabbis were able to recreate their world. The writers cannot, and even sadder, today most of their works cannot even be read. All of this only helps perpetuate the useful myth that pre-WWII Europe was a nostalgic frum utopia, like Fiddler on the Roof but with more Torah study and less singing. The rewriting and, in many ways, gutting, of the diversity of Ashkenazi history and culture is yet another tragedy we can place on the Nazis’ shoulders.

  • Maybe ck’s intention was to make a provocative yet illogical statement in order to be provocative yet illogical. As hard as the Nazis tried, it has been proven they didn’t succeed in leaving us with lesser schmucks in the science and arts – so why religious scholars?

    Even if I am interpreting his comment wrong, and in spite of what one thinks of Sherman Wine, in my opinion Shoah didn’t cause arm-waving, dropping the men off, strawberry fields forever flap. In my opinion this did:

    http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/d3/ft1j49n6d3/figures/ft1j49n6d3_00013.jpg

    And maybe this too:

    http://www.alarmingnews.com/archives/Madonna%20Concert%20Image.jpg

  • I don’t think ck was equating the Orthodox ‘fanatics’ with Nazi’s, he was simply saying that he hates Nazi for destroying generations of Torah scholars, thus leaving us with, in his opinion, a generation of schmucks.

  • Nazis rounded up, tortured, tormented, starved, shot and gassed people. So perhaps you could stop using this term indiscriminately to describe the orthodox fanatics? . . . . [I]ts about trying to live the best you can and uphold the spirit and letter of the Torah’s mitzvos.

    Yeah, isn’t it a bit outrageous to demonize these people for what is essentially the minor peccadillo of advocating a somewhat overly stringent adherence to God’s law? After all, clearly their hearts are in the right place, they just may have gone a tiny bit overboard in their efforts to “uphold the spirit and letter of the Torah’s mitzvos.” Shouldn’t we extend such individuals a greater measure of open-mindedness and understanding? After all, it’s not like they’re some truly malevolent, hateful enemies of the Jewish People and of God, individuals who should expect to suffer eternal damnation. I mean, it’s not like they’re someone truly heinous like, say, Sherwin Wine, who obviously deserves to be condemned to Hell along with such figures as Eichmann and Torquemada.

  • CK- Nazis rounded up, tortured, tormented, starved, shot and gassed people. So perhaps you could stop using this term indiscriminately to describe the orthodox fanatics? I’m just saying.

    Everyone is welcome to live in Long Beach, I welcome you all. There are no fatwas against arm swinging, and no takanas about dropping people off anywhere.

    Just because some Rabbi says something on a CD is no reason to dismiss an entire segment of the Jewish people – no matter how silly. Everyone can be famous today.

    And all of the concern about Chumra of the week as a reason to not keep the Laws of the Torah — you have to seriously question why you are doing anything to begin with. You can be the holiest Jew in the world – its about trying to live the best you can and uphold the spirit and letter of the Torah’s mitzvos.

  • Just this afternoon I was overcome with lust by the sight of a lovely lady’s swinging arms. I’d say that this is a primal urge from the days in which we were monkeys but the rabbis might have a fit.

  • Well put Y-Love, but let’s make it clear that even the basic laws can make “unaffiliated” Jews cringe and recoil. Yes, this that semgirl writes about is extra ammunition for someone to reject but:
    Let’s put it this way- if you have an “unafilliated” Jewish guest over for dinner, you give them a Shabbos feel and talk about the parsha, etc. You don’t launch into a class or discussion on taharas hamishpacha. That would send them away just as fast as semgirl’s post.
    Good Shabbos Y-Love and the Jewlicious crew.

  • Esther hit it right on the head —

    Those of us who are involved in the world of Orthodox Jewish outreach often have this as a huge hurdle to overcome, often unaffiliated Jews see these things and adamantly say “why would I, no matter how inspired I am, give up my current way of life for this?”

    It’s hard to keep being reactionary, makiing chumras to “counteract to downward spiral on which society is headed” ad infinitum. I don’t understand, nor do I agree with, this general zeitgeist to become “more frum than” the Shulchan Aruch.

    The Torah tells us unequivocally to listen to our poskim and dayanim, so having faith in the chachamim is a Torah Law issue, but like Semgirl said, not to “Chas V’Shalom mock or belittle any of the illustrious Talmidei Chochomim in Lakewood or elsewhere, but seriously can we get real.”

  • The “Chumrah of the Month Club” is a compelling reason for a non-Orthodox level of observance. There’s fences around laws to protect us from touching the third rail, so to speak, and then there’s “women need to be restricted for the sake of all mankind.”

    Oh yeah, chicken is pareve and strawberries are fleishig. Discuss.

  • I know that not guarding what the eyes see is so important, yet this quote from the comment section of the post is sharp:
    “J said…
    Reminds me of a story I heard about Rav Shmuel Salant in Yerushalayim, whose Rebetzin was a personality in her own right.

    Once a bochur came to the door and she answered it. He did not look at her and his eyes where facing downwards.

    She is reported to have told him “Better you should have your eyes on me and your mind on the floor, than to have your eyes on the floor but your mind is on me!”

  • Annie,
    Agree entirely, I really hate that aspect of this issue. That men can never really be trusted, and we are essentially uncontrollable sexual beasts who could never really have the self-control or discipline to be trusted (or even tempted). Really, if that is the bar that is being set, is it any surprise when dudes act that way?

  • Yeah, I get that modesty can be an issue, but it mostly peeves me how women are responsible for not inflaming the passions of men, instead of men being responsible for controlling themselves. Sure, women shouldn’t dress in a really provocative way, but “not provocative” and “not swinging your arms” seem pretty far away.