Did you know there’s a website out there just for half-Jews? Not wanting to be too pushy, it only even takes up half my computer screen!
They propose Governor’s Island, just off Manhattan to become the national homeland of half-Jews. In theory, this as well as everything else on the site could be terribly funny, but sadly, it seems they don’t have much to say, or bite their tongue too often. That must be the other half.
Latest posts by Laya Millman (see all)
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I have been exited by the many testmonies have read and im pround of such faithful christian and very encouraged to continue trusting in the Lord
I adore this web page but I cannot actually download this images. Im just using a mobile computer if it can help. Well cheers.
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Sadece Türkiye’de ki de?il dünyan?n dört bir kö?esindeki camilere, cami hal?lar?m?z? ula?t?rarak fark?m?z? ve kalitemizi referanslar?m?zla belli ediyoruz.
Tropical holidays are safe and enjoyable but not an escape from the pandemic
With the under a travel advisory, Most Canadians are remaining put this year, But whoever has jetted off say vacationing during a pandemic is safe and enjoyable, But not at most of the time to forget or escape the global health crisis.
“A lot has changed about travel, But a lot hasn’t re-structured, additionally. The resort experience feels very much the same, Said travel editor Michael Pihach who spent 24 days in the dominican republic in November.
hope for that hand sanitizer, goggles, And physical distancing will follow you wherever you go and be sure to pack patience and kindness for people and countries chnlove real or fake that devastated by the tourism catastrophe that was COVID 19.
for now at least, The pandemic is shifting the travel focal points of Canadians, he states.
“For majority of us, It’s about getting away from the cold and getting a cheap deal. Now it comes down to safety. The resorts that are doing the best are the luxury brands that are charging the highest daily rates because this is where people feel most safe,
manually SANITIZER: THE NEW WELCOME drink
“I will say that sanitizer is the new welcome mixture, reads Pihach, Who discovered eight resorts in Punta Cana.
“Every resort you get to, Every new room you enter, You get squirts of sanitizer with you. Staff are waiting at every entrance. They take it very gravely,
And that’s where it starts.
Resort staff will disinfect your luggage. computer files, Pens and other touched items in front desk are sanitized in a UV light machine and travellers are also frequently checked for their temperature as they move around the resort, probably through handheld non touch thermometer sensors or a thermal camera above doors.
Pihach says the disinfection of dining tables, desks, Luggage carts and other touched surfaces is frequent and visible.
Pihach, Who flew 62 amount of times in 2019, Says he felt entirely safe during his first trip since pandemic grounded leisure travel in March. As assisting editor with Pax Global Media Inc, A national trade publication for travel agencies and tour operators, Pihach was among a group of journalists invited to visit a series of all inclusive resorts that are reopening as trinidad tries to rebuild its devastated tourism sector.
He was originally designed to stay at one resort in Punta Cana for three days, But that stretched into 24 days and eight buildings. He documented his opinions in a series of articles.
when you arrive at your room, declares Pihach, There is a seal taped over the door to show it hasn’t been entered since it was disinfected. Room cleaners are armed with sanitizing spray tanks on their backs that reminded Pihach of the film “Ghostbusters, Rooms are removed of touchpoints, this kind of as maps, information, leaflets or flowers.
Staff who are normally in masks are separated from guests by barriers. At one resort Pihach went to see, Masked staff wore buttons that display a graphic of their face, Alongside a description of their mood.
Staff and guests are separated by barriers at the cab end desk. in your Hyatt Ziva/Zilara Cap Cana, Staff wear buttons that show what their face seems to take after behind the mask. slightly, Diners scan QR codes in their phones to call up menus. Travellers can also use their phones to correspond with a virtual concierge to find and book restaurants, outings, Spa treatments and interviews with physical trainers.
“If you still want a physical menu or to communicate with a human, which so still, But men and women don’t have an option,
Tables are widely spaced out and some resorts have only opened outdoor bistros for service. in most cases, establishments are open on alternating days. There were a number of small businesses that delivered cutlery to the table sealed in plastic.
Room service often meant food delivered in takeout packaging and left away from the door.
“Resort staff are prohibited to enter your room unless it’s to clean or sanitize,
much of the resorts he visited are operating at 20 to 30 per cent capacity, But are any busier on the weekend, When locals are likely to visit. the actual caps capacity at 60 per cent.
“People are concered about crowding, But there is no reason to fear that you feel crowded. I was actually the only person in a totaly tower at one resort. Physical distancing is not that hard right now,
precisely at home, Physical distancing simple guidelines are stuck on floors and elevators, But masks are not necessary. accommodations are “Politely asking” That guests wear masks in common areas and often, Pihach statements, people going abroad were complying. Guests seemed to be sticking to their personal bubbles, a bit too.
Some resorts are utilizing rapid testing for guests and staff and also offering that as an add on to a wedding package.
“So and dove release and fireworks, You can have a lab come to the resort and test your guests to being able to gather together.
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The jews want it both ways: they want it to be a religion that you can convert to (if you convert in a specific way (orthodox), you are a jew, end of story), but they also want it to be a race that you are born into and cannot leave (if you have a jewish mum, you are jewish. end of story). So it leaves those of half-jewish descent on their Dad’s side completely screwed.
I’m a half-Jew. I’m also half Hispanic. If I’m not a Jew, am I not Hispanic either? As we Jews (and yes I just said that) are always defending, being Jewish is not just belonging to a religion, it’s belonging to an ethnicity. I AM ETHNICALLY JEWISH. I attend reform synagogue, and am making Aliyah this year. It’s MY ancestral homeland TOO. All of you want to be REAL JEWS, why not step up, make Aliyah and realize the dreams of our ancestors who dreamt and fought for a Jewish Homeland for centuries. Oh, and apparently, I’m Jewish enough for Israel for them to approve me for Aliyah with only having a Jewish father. Discuss…
I am half Jewish on my fathers side. My mom was from Wales and was from a Protestant upbringing but she was not religious. My dad was not religious but his mother followed the Jewish faith. His father, I believe, was not a religious Jew. My father enjoyed the Christmas holiday. I grew up believing in God with no religious affiliation, and as an adult considered myself an agnostic. I feel that I am truly half jewish and half welsh. My dad is very fair skinned with blue eyes and it is my mother who had very dark hair and eyes, so I have med brown hair, light brown eyes. They slant a bit (from dad’s side) and full lips from my mom with high cheekbones from my dad. We moved here to Montana from Queens New York when I was 12. Most people here think I am Native American, even the Native Americans do! not too many Jews in Montana, though there is a small population here. I feel I have some characteristics that are both Jewish and non Jewish. But this is a good thing, not a prejudice. And I think the mixing of blood is good genetics. I am proud of who I am, and would not be here if not for all my ancestors!
Well, that is interesting. My father is Jewish, my mother- well, totally not. I don’t think I am half-Jewish, because ‘Jewish’ is not a race, it is a religion, made up of people from various ethnic groups, a large proportion of whom are not even Semites descended from the 12 tribes of Judah. I was recently told by a (now former) friend that I had the RIGHT to return to Israel (PALESTINE) and they would even pay me to move there, and kick an Arab (Christian, Muslim, Jew, doesn’t matter, as long as they are Arabs and not European) out of their home, bulldoze their ancestral land to make them live in appalling conditions in a ghetto (while I took my rightful place as effendi) to ensure they didn’t “cause any trouble” while I was stealing my “God-given homeland” from an innocent, unarmed native. I tried to be nice, and told him that my conscience told ME that stealing, plundering, injustice, racism and apartheid are wrong, no matter what. He twisted my arm behind my back and nearly broke my wrist while he hissed vulgar epithets in my ear- all because I don’t think “God told me I could” is an excuse for human rights abuses and atrocities committed by one person upon another under any circumstance. Am I “half Jewish?” Well, maybe. But I certainly wouldn’t “take credit” for being a member of a group of imperialist thugs that daily humiliate, abuse, displace and ethnically cleanse a foreign country and her citizens in what can only be described as a pogrom. True Torah Jews and Hasids know that Israel cannot be establish by force of man’s will, but by God’s alone, when Moshiach comes. I will go to Israel, but not to “settle;” rather to unsettle, and stand in solidarity with the many peoples of the world- Israelis, Europeans, Americans and Palestinians- who demand that this one-sided war of aggression come to an end by giving the Arabs what every human being deserves.
Susan, Jewish is a race. There are three races of Jews: Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi. All are descendants of the original Isrealites. You are ethnically half Jewish (unless your fathers family were converts).
Fight fire with fire. 😉
Sometimes I suspect middle is a troll as well.
Cathy, nice to have you back even if you are leaving again, my little trollita!
I think we’ll skip my long response. Instead, my suggestion for you is that if you want more answers, do a google search under “how did jews change to matrilineal descent?” and you’ll get pages and pages of responses.
Enjoy.
And goodbye!
According to Jewish law you are Jewish if your mother was Jewish, and you are considered so whether or not you convert.
You don’t need to be so flippant; Jews are not “icky.” And it doesn’t matter whether I wish to “associate” with Jews or not. That has nothing to do with my question.
You pretty much effectively side stepped the question because you don”t know the answer. You follow what the rabbis tell you. I am not saying that’s bad, but my dad was fiercely independent and wanted answers and I inherited that from him. I have been asking this question for years because I am curious. Not because I have a problem with Jews, or whatever else you are trying to imply. I know people who have one Jewish parent and I know they wonder the same thing.
Somehow you are automatically a Jew if the “correct” parent is Jewish. You don’t have to convert. You don’t have to believe. But everywhere you go people tell you who you are or aren’t depending on you birth. On the other hand, those with the “incorrect” Jewish parent are not allowed to claim their heritage and have to go through rigorous conversion. And even then they are held ridgedly to practicing the religion where their other half Jewish family or friends are can be members of the fold regardless of what they believe. Does that seem fair to you? It doesn’t to me. And all because about 1800 years ago a group of rabbi’s made this absurd rule.
Judaism was originally inclusive of anyone with a Jewish parent anyway from what I have read in the Tanakh. So it baffles me even more, and I wonder where they came up with the idea you are no longer Jewish if the wrong parent is Jewish. It seems contrary to God’s original intention. He promised Jacob all his decendants will be his people and he would be their God.
This is a long post because I have hopefully been able to make you understand my question. If you want to give me a serious answer, please read my post carefully because so far you have completely missed my point. Not to mention calling me names and verbally abusing me.
I have lurked at this site and when I finally get up the nerve to post something I am treated despicably. I am an old lady. Our generation is not too “forum savvy.” I have two talented and beautiful college age kids who are curious about their background.
Since you have made me completely unwelcome I as well as my kids are no longer interested in becoming involved with this site. I know…you don’t care..but I am telling you anyway.
Goodbye.
Yes. Thank you. So, what I was asking, since this is a discussion about people who have one Jewish parent, and my question is pertinent to the discussion, is why one has to be born into the faith. In most other religions everyone has to declare their faith and intention to follow the religion, and everyone needs to go through a ceremony to become a member. I don’t understand why not everyone has to do that in Judiaism, those with Jewish mothers (or in some cases fathers) are automatically considered a member of the religion without having to even believe in it.
My father used to joke about when he was in Hebrew school he used toask these kind of questions and the rabbi would say, “shut up and read.” It frustrated him so much he decided not to follow the religion. Yet, he was still considered Jewish.
Since both my parents are now deceased, I can’t ask them (I don’t think they knew why either).
Where in the Torah does it address this?
Cathy, I’m so sorry your father had such a hard time in Hebrew school and couldn’t get serious answers to his questions from dastardly rabbis. I’ll be sure to bring it up with the head Jew office. Customer service is a priority for us.
I am curious, however, as to who considered your father Jewish when he decided not to “follow the religion.” Was it his neighbors? His parents? It surely wasn’t his rabbi because he didn’t have one, and it wasn’t his wife because she appeared to agree with him, and it wasn’t his children because here you are telling us he stopped following Judaism. So who was it who still considered him Jewish? The Jews with whom he had disassociated himself? Or was it that he continued to get mailings from his local Jewish charities?
I’ve already explained, as have others, that you don’t have to be born into the Jewish faith. You may convert into Judaism, just as you may convert to other faiths. Regarding the “Jewish by birth” issue, I’m also not sure I agree . In Catholicism, for example, you get baptized when you’re about 2 years old. It doesn’t seem to me that most 2 year olds are up on their theological issues. It’s their parents and community who determine that they are Catholics. And, similar to Judaism, the same baptized two year old Catholic child may grow up and become a non-practicing adult but the Church will still consider him/her a Catholic. In fact, I’m not sure you can even become a non-Catholic according to Catholic theology. Thankfully, their popularity compelled the Catholics to develop a true head office with a leader in charge so when people want to complain about how they’re still considered Catholics when they’ve effectively left the fold, at least there’s an address to which they may write. Hallelujah.
So here’s the thing, Cathy. I will speak for all Jews now; every single one of us. If you don’t feel Jewish, and don’t wish to practice any part of the Jewish faith, and don’t wish to be considered Jewish, then by all means please disassociate from Judaism. It is true that if you meet an observant Jew and tell him that you are no longer Jewish that he may believe in his heart that you remain Jewish. However, the fact remains that unless you are a mind-reader it won’t matter what he thinks. Or better yet, just avoid observant Jews, or any Jews for that matter. We’re icky.
Any other questions?
By the way, what was your question again?
Okay, troll. Chag sameach.
I won’t be celebrating Passover and I dislike lamb, but thank you anyway.
I am not the troll here, you are. I am not confused either, I merely asked a question. Look up troll on the internet (I know you don’t care), but I did and nothing I have done by any stretch of the imagination makes me a troll. I am deeply offended and will say so despite the fact that you don’t care. I am not angry, but my gosh you seem to be.
You have continued to attack me over & over for no reason. Answer my question or leave me alone. If someone wants to answer my question I will be happy to listen.
I do not want to hear from you themiddle. At least I use my name. Trolls do not use their real names.
Oh, and happy Passover to you and your husband as you celebrate your first as do the Karaites. You may find you need a really big spit for the lamb.
Cathy, I don’t care whether you’re Jewish or not or whether you’re of the Jewish FAITH or not, or whatever you want to call it. I don’t care whether you “join” this site or whether you’re a Quaker, Mormon, former Jesuit who is now Pope or anything else. You seem like a very confused and angry troll.
But yes, thank you, our site does have a wonderful name even if I am a nasty piece of work. Hope you find that Troll congregation you are so desperately seeking.
Maybe I should clarify. I am not of the Jewish FAITH because I don’t believe it, but I am a Jew as far as ancestry, culture, ethnicity, etc whatever you want to call it. Maybe that will help you understand what I was asking. But don’t bother responding to me unless you can do it politely. Sheesh, calm down!
What is WRONG with you?! Where did I say I wasn’t Jewish? Maybe you should reread my question because what I asked should not cause so much anger in a person.
Also, I am troll because my name is Cathy? Um, huh??
No, I have never been called a troll, your sarcasm is way out of line. Maybe you have, I don’t know.
As I read back, it seems like you are a pretty nasty piece of work. So, nevermind. I will go ask this question elsewhere. And I will ask it, continually, until someone can give me a polite and understandable answer.
Oh, and as for Karaite Jews? I read about them in THIS THREAD and googled them. I had never heard of them before. And, where do you get the idea I’m a Quaker? You are either confusing me with someone else, or you are just plain wacko.
Don’t worry. I am no longed interested in joining or supporting youf sitd if you are representative of the kind of people who frequent thix place. It had a delightful name and that is why I clicked on it in the first place.
From Wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]
How is Cathy a troll?
Jason, thanks for looking it up for us.
Cathy, you’re a first name on the internet. It’s a little surprising that you should take offense at being called a troll. And if this is the first time you’ve been called a troll on the internet, mazal tov to you and may the rest of your days be full of cheer.
It’s interesting you should bring up the Karaites because they consider themselves Jewish when it’s convenient and not Jewish when it’s convenient (as in the days of the last Czars of the Russian empire). Some Jews consider them Jewish and some don’t. If you believe the Torah should be followed explicitly and without oral law, I hope you enjoy sacrificing animals. Yum, yum, barbecue for dinner regularly! The great news for you is that if you take the Torah literally, there is no place that I know of in the Torah that requires descent from the mother. That is oral law. In fact, the Torah is lenient about non-Jewish spouses coming to the Israelite fold merely by deciding they belong.
Philosophically, I wasn’t seeking to give you an answer because one doesn’t really exist. We are talking about faith here. Some Jews believe you need a maternal Jewish link or an Orthodox conversion to be considered Jewish and they will never consider an alternative no matter how much you scream that your great-great grandmother on your father’s side was Jewish but your mom wasn’t. Are they right, are they wrong, are there ethnic implication, etc.? Doesn’t matter. It’s what they believe. If you wish to live among them and be considered Jewish you better have a Jewish mother or convert with one of their rabbis.
The good news for you, since you’re so trollishly confused, is that other Jews disagree with those Orthodox Jews. These Jews, mostly Reform but some other smaller streams as well, will accept your conversion with one of their rabbis. If you choose to go that route, you will find they are more lenient than their Orthodox cousins. Also, you will find there is a great deal of acceptance of your faith if you choose not to convert. I know some Reform congregations filled with non-Jewish spouses who are never asked to convert. Their kids are raised at the synagogues’ Hebrew schools like everyone else and the kids celebrate their bat/bar mitzvah like everyone else and they are considered Jewish like everyone else. If this is sincerely what troubles you and your hubby, then find the accommodating Reform rabbi near your home and you can overcome this obstacle you think you’re facing without any difficulty.
As for explaining things to your kids, here’s how I would go about it: “Children, your father is Jewish and comes from a family of Jews going back centuries. I am not Jewish, but I respect his heritage and would like you to be exposed to it so that when you’re older you may choose to follow Judaism instead of my Quaker faith. If you do choose to follow Judaism, you should know there are many nasty and mean Jews on the Internet, but there are nice ones too and you should always seek out the nice ones. Also, you should know that a Reform congregation will accept you, but an Orthodox one won’t. The jury is still out on the Conservative one. Now let’s go enjoy both the menorah and the christmas tree we have set up and pray it’s not going to be too confusing for you. Religion sucks.”
A troll? Seriously? Wow. I guess I should not have expected kindness here. I spent hours reading this entire thread yesterday and was shocked at the nastiness, if not downright cruelty of some of the posters here. And I am the one who gets called a troll? That is a first for me in all the years I’ve been online.
With that aside, I guess I should say thanks for answering what, to me, is a very serious question and one my non-religious Jewish husband and I have often wondered about.
After posting here I checked out Karaite Jews and found some very interesting and good information from them. They make sense (to me) – they follow the Torah as it was originally written. No oral law, which didn’t exist at the time of Moses.
And, my question wasn’t really fully answered because I still have a problem understanding how one could be an observant, religious Jew for a thousand years and not be considered Jewish. I cannot believe that is what is written in the law of Moses. Nor does it seem divinely inspired either so where did that idea originate?
I guess I am going to be called a troll by you for asking this important question which we can’t explain to our kids. Why that is that such an offensive question that warrants such a rude response I will never know.
Actually, the Nazis defined Jewishness on the basis of having one Jewish grandparent.
Even though you are a troll, I’ll be glad to explain. You can become Jewish by birth or by conversion. Since Judaism has a number of different streams, it also has different forms of considering who is Jewish and who isn’t.
Briefly, the Orthodox streams tend to only accept Jews by birth who were born to a Jewish mother. They only accept converted Jews who had their conversion performed by an Orthodox rabbi. Opposite them are the Reform Jews who believe someone is Jewish by birth if either the mother or father are Jewish and who accept conversions from Reform, Conservative or Orthodox rabbis. Therefore, you can be Jewish in any stream even if your bloodline isn’t Jewish by birth.
Having said that, in a couple of streams you can have Jewish blood going back thousands of years and if your Jewish father married a non-Jewish woman who wasn’t converted by an Orthodox rabbi, then these (Orthodox) streams will not consider you to be Jewish even if you are a fully observant Jew and become Chief Rabbi of Israel.
I know nothing about the Jewish religion and very little about my Jewish heritage. I was raised secular. So forgive my not understanding please. How can I be considered Jewish when I’ve never practiced the religion (it IS a religion, right?), while others who practice the religion are not, based on their birth? Are you claiming Judiaism as a religion or a bloodline? A religion, to me, is a FAITH. Not based on your parentage. Otherwise, you are getting very close to defining a belief by ethnicity. In which case all who share the ethnicity should be accepted. This whole Jewish mother vs Jewish father thing is exceedingly confusing because, logically, if you follow the religion you are that religion, if you don’t you’re not. It is frightening because the Nazi’s defined Jewishness based on birth and it seems the Jewish religion does as well. Please someone, ‘splain.
Judaism is the religion of the Jewish nation. Membership of the Jewish nation is automatic through birth from a Jewish mother or by conversion with the approval of a court of three rabbis who can certify the genuine wish to become part of the Jewish nation. People of the Jewish nation do not have to practice ‘Judaism’ and its ceremonies, and this does not remove them from the nation, neither does converting out or practicing another religion. Jewish law doesn’t believe that anyone can ever leave the Jewish nation.
It’s always sad to see the fighting that gets endendered by the issue, and all sorts of intoleraces come out. I do know halakhically Jewish half Jews who have been abominably treated by some Orthodox (usually ultra) and called goyim (non-Jews) or mamzerim (bastards/product of forbidden relationship). I also know half-Jews of patrilineal descent who have been mistreated and have had more difficulties put into the way of their conversion than converts with no Jewish ancestry. I also know of patrilineal Jews who were raised with Judaism whose conversions have been virtually immediate because they were already keeping mitzvot.
I am converting, and have no Jewish ancestry but the shul I attend has gone out of it’s way to include me in every halakhic way possible even when I wasn’t sure if I would ever convert and just preferred the Jewish services. Oddly, I was raised “Jewish” by my mother in many respects and ethnically speaking descend from a people who accepted a Judaizing form of Christianity which kept up Shabbat observance until they were forced not to in the 12th century. I enjoy my shul’s wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, including Sephardim and Bene Israel alongside the Askenazim. We have some Black Jews (whose history I don’t know) and quite a few Asian and half-Asian Jews who probably descend from more recent converts, but Judaism has a long history in Asia so perhaps not.
I understand the annoyance patrilineal descendants feel, just as I understand the annoyance Bene Anusim feel at the idea of having to undergo conversion. I am 100% ethnically Scottish and speak Gaelic but I can’t have Scottish citizenship, not even if I moved back there. I can only ever be British. My children could be Scottish, if born there, but not me even though my siblings and all our ancestors are. It’s a little annoying, that people who could care less about Scottish culture or Gaelic, or who are Russian or Pakistani by ethnicity can have Scottish citizenship and I can’t but that is the law. They have no right to stop me claiming Scottish ethnicity though, or speaking the language but they do have a right to stop me claiming citizenship.
The issue with Judaism is similar.Judaism has an ethnic component but Judaism is a legalistic distinction based on rulings by Rabbis. Different groups have issued different rulings about who they will and will not accept as Jewish, just as they issue decisions about which heshers they will accept for kosher food. Some ultra-Orthodox won’t accept some Orthodox heshers. The Israelis right leaning Rabbinate won’t accept some Orthodox Rabbis’ converts. Because Judaism is decentrilized, and has no Pope, each group makes it’s own rulings, for better or worse. Recently however there has been increased concern for the treatment of Zerim Yisrael (Seed of Israel = patrilineal Jews) but it comes at a time when Orthodoxy is being pulled to the right and enforcing far greater strictures on converts than it traditionally did in centuries past.
When the Beta Israel (Black Jews of Ethiopia) arrived in Israel their status was uncertain, like that of the Bene Israel (Indian Jews) because of their divorces differing. To be safe, some Rabbis labeled them not Jewish and re converted them rather than risking them being called mamzerim or causing them to be a people apart of uncertain status. It was meant as a kindness, not an insult, though they were confused when a 2nd more strict Orthodox group of Rabbis came and converted them again!
Annoying as it is, you shouldn’t necessarily take the plea to undergo conversion as an insult unless the person is insulting! Many Rabbis simply want to make sure the whole community will accept you as Jewish so you can marry and take part publically in ritual life. They can’t tell you not to go to synagogue, or speak Hebrew or even move to Israel which will accept you as a citizen and a Jew, nor can they tell you about your soul. It is purely a legal status issue, the same as any citizenship. Annoying but necessary for cohesion….and I say that even though any future children I have will not be accepted by the Orthodox because I am converting Conservative. It is their right as a community to have their own standards on matters and issue their own rulings just as the Haredi have a right to not accept the Orthodox if they don’t want to.
I have Jewish and Gentile ancestry. For the purpose of this post, it’s not relevant which side it is from.
Because there are differing positions (e.g. Karaites for Patrilineal, Orthodox and Conservative for Matrilineal), I’m considered Jewish-born by some, and by some I’m not.
But I do have a idea that I’d like to run by y’all. It’s not a idea that I thought on the fly or casually. It’s something that has taken shape after years of seeing the above type of dis-harmony, not to mention dealing with my own dual ancestry.
So, here’s what I would offer as a suggestion to us here and the broader community of people who come from Jacob:
– If I have Jewish ancestry and I self-identify as a Jew, then I ask this of my fellow descendant-of-Jacob : That you act in such a way as to enable me to uphold my Judaism.
Is that possible? If your definition of who is born a Jew does not allow you to call me “a Jew”, I’m fine with that. It makes no sense for me to try to change your beliefs or expect you should act against them. But beliefs on lineality should not be cause for a descendant of Jacob to be unwelcome in our midst (for example like laws excluding patrilineal Karaites from being recognized as Jewish when they make aliyah to Israel).
Practically it means:
– You don’t argue with me whether I’m a Jew or not. You won’t win, so don’t try.
– You are happy if we pray together or celebrate a feast together.
– You don’t stand for others telling me whether I’m a Jew or not.
It’s a very simple idea. I’m sure it’s naive, but i’m not asking you if you think it’s naive. Rather, I am asking folks here: would YOU have a problem with it ??
T’da !!
Gershom
A famous Hollywood producer made a rule that only Jewish Children could swim in a certain pool. Groucho Marx replied: ‘My daughter’s half-Jewish. Can she go in up to her waist?’
Some very interesting posts. BUT there will probably never be any finality in the arguments.
I have spent my entire life trying to work thru the 2 cultures – as a 1/2. and it was interesting to note the breadth of thought that many ‘1/2’s have – (wider frame of reference.)
In reference to all these identity problems – Quote from a book by John Pearson: ‘ TO BE NOBODY ELSE.’
The problem is that Ephraim and his supporters on here like Felix are looking at defining a Jew on a purely religious basis, while Rachel and Amber are broader in looking at it from cultural/ethnic/racial definition, while minimizing the religious aspect.
If the definition of a “Jew” is based only on the religious orthodox view, then a half-Japanese man can convert in their sanctioned way and be considered Jewish. Why not, if being Jewish is nothing more than buying into the religion as set out by these Orthodox rabbis? Ephraim and Felix cannot think for themselves – they must, being orthodox religious men, follow what they are told to follow by their religious leaders. That is what scares me about them.
But their is an inherit contradiction in their position. They also try to claim babies born of Jewish mothers as instantly “Jewish”. This means by their own admission, that being Jewish is not defined on a purely religious basis. It is also racial/ethnic/genetic in some way. So the theory is confused and inconsistent.
The world is much more complicated than these fellows wish, and to deny the cultural/racial/ethnic side of the Jewish people is to blind yourself intentionally to a self-evident fact (not the first time “believers” have done that). That is why Rachel and Amber are so hurt – they are being told by radically superstitious believers that their own connection to half their family is in some way illegitimate. How utterly stupid. A wedge is being driven between them and their ancestors that they of course must reject. And they are right to reject it. Ephraim and Felix can pretend that there is no cultural or racial aspect to Jewishness all they want, that is up to them, and live in their own contradictions. But they are wrong.
Wow. I don’t understand why this issue incites people to attack each other so viciously. Can someone explain to me why it is such a huge problem that “half-Jews” want to be counted as part of the Jewish community? Is the world going to go up in flames? Are we going to cease to exist as a people? I have no problem accepting these children of intermarriage. Please, someone enlighten me.
Rachel, the particular problem in this case is not mixed heritage, but what’s behind that website. As the responses above show, it appears to be driving Christian pseudo-theology rather than to help patrilineal Jews feel part of the Jewish community. I hope that answers your question.
I’m a patrilineal Jewish Karaite.
Some of the posts actually push me to believe that their protagonists are dumb.
If they were so keen onto their matrilineal rule, they must surely know far more than Mshe rabbeinu who received the Torah (and oral law according to rabbinicals)…He had a son with a Midianite BEFORE the law was given to him…Though it ddidn’t prevent him from having another affair with a Cushite women!
Miriam (his sister) protested about his affairs with non-Jewish girls…What did she get in return?
Leprosy!And that for 7 days!
So if its fine for Moses, it’s definitely fine for me…
And if it’s fine for God, it’s definitely bad news for your rabbinicals!
Re7av’Am was also a patrilineal Jew….Never prevented him from being king of Yehudah!
Now you may argue that their mothers converted…
But you should know that I’m gonna have a hard time believing you given that there is no mention of their conversion!
On the other hand, Jewish mother said that the matrilineal rule is ‘natural’…So would you deem the muslim patrilineal law as ‘supernatural’?
My paternal grandmother (jewish, both in Karaite and rabbinical standards) spoke russian…My dad doesn’t:
Mum doesn’t always decide I’m afraid!
“somebody Evangelical is that Evangelical eschatology has it that all Jews must be disunited (â€dead†among the more extreme ones) so their end-of-days scenario will come about…somebody who uses you as a vehicle to achieve their goals, regardless of your well-being.”
Oh, I must have missed that. Do you really think THAT is her agenda? That would even be worse than what I thought about her: ‘Nutjob with world domination fantasies’ – a suspicion that is also reflected by what that guy said on the Myspace-link Ephraim provided:
“I know Robin Margolis (that isn’t her real surname, she changed it to sound Jewish). She’s nutty as a fruitcake. Seriously, she is TOTALLY out of her mind – a self-aggrandizing egomaniac who changes her identity more often than I change my drawers.”
Anyway, reading this thread helped me to see clearer what’s the deal with this “Half-Jewish” crap I encountered for the first time some days ago on the net. I’m glad this is not some general trend in the US but just a bunch of mental cases.
Felix, the difference between a non-observant, even possibly esoteric Reform Jew and somebody Evangelical is that Evangelical eschatology has it that all Jews must be disunited (“dead” among the more extreme ones) so their end-of-days scenario will come about. There’s a huge difference between somebody who’s not attracted to your degree of religious affiliation and somebody who uses you as a vehicle to achieve their goals, regardless of your well-being.
Yeah, sure. But I guess the boundaries between Judaism and Christianity generally get fluid once you have distanced yourself enough from accepting Halacha as the fundament. People who have a universalistic approach and are looking for spirituality, mysticism etc in the first line will inevitably feel that Judaism with its separations, OCD issues and anal retentiveness is not what they really want. Reform in its beginning was already concepted as sort of a Jewish version of the Lutheran church for all the people who were longing to be fully assimilated but still felt a bit itchy about officially converting to Christianity (before it got more traditional again).
So whether Robin is an ultra-liberal Jew who’s much more into kabbalaballa blabbering than in real Judaism or whether she’s actually rather an Evangelical Christian kind of mind doesn’t play much of a role anymore. As you are from Germany you might have heard of the recent case of Baruch Rabinowitz who gradually transformed from Orthodox rabbi to (Judeo-)Christian weirdo preacher via Reform/Renewal.
To me, Robin, and the people sharing her attitude, are simply a bunch of bizarre, whiny people with a degree of ignorance about and prejudice against real-life Jews and traditional Judaism that’s bordering on anti-Semitism.
Just read up the earlier posts from two years ago… froylein (whose stance on patrilinear descent and positive attitude towards intermarriage i don’t share, though), ephraim and ck have already said all there is to say. Robin Margolis is just some kind of propaganda bot trying to spread her own brand of “half-jewish” ideology wherever she can (she seems to be quite active on rather liberal/secular jewish sites like Jewcy etc), but much of what she says strikes me as ignorant/biased/hypocritical, fairly anti-israel and, quite often, simply anti-semitic.
Felix, my issue with Robin Margolis is, as I hope became clear in older comments, that if nailed cornered into admitting her theology, she’s selling is Evangelical Christianity, not an aspect of Reform Judaism.
It’s really very simple.
It’s not about your name. It’s not about your nose. It’s not about genetics. It’s not about your eyes, your ears, your color of skin, the size of your feet or your stinky breath. It’s not about you liking bagels with lox. It’s not about you studying law or being an investment banking or real estates crook. It’s not about you having a fondness for Fiddler On The Roof or Barbra Streisand or Klezmer music. It’s not about you having a dominant, psychologically warfaring mother, or a father who looks like Leonard Cohen. It’s not about you liking chicks with guns. It’s not about anything of that. That doesn’t make you a jew. Only for Nazis.
Are you a Nazi?
If you are a Nazi, you believe being a hook-nosed, criminal stock broker named Goldstein makes you a Jew.
And only if you are a Nazi.
Jews have different standards:
You are a Jew if your mother is Jewish, or if you converted to Judaism.
And that’s it. Very simple. No nose competitions, no meditations about surnames, no preferences for food or job activcities necessary to consider.
Just: Mother – yes/no? Conversion – yes/no?
I know, for some Americans that must be hard to understand. Particularly to those who are stupid as bricks and like to demand all sorts of things for themselves with a loud, whining voice.
But, you know, the real question still is, even for the spoiled, depraved, retarded lot of you whining “half-jews”: Why the motherfucking hell do you think a Nazi attitude is better suited to define who’s a Jew than Jewish law and tradition?
Sorry if you feel that way, but when you say halacha is outmoded and ancient, you obviously think it should no longer apply. However, halacha is and always has been the foundation of the Jewish religion. Ergo, you think the foundation of Judaism is outdated. Which means you have a problem with Judaism.
Your further comments (“I simply refuse to blindly follow a law that the Rabbis changed…”, and “I suppose I align myself more with the Karaite way of thinking about oral tradition, the Talmud, etc.”) make this even clearer.
Judaism is what the rabbis say it is. The Karaites reject the Talmud and the laws that are derived from it. If you feel yourself to be a Karaite, then you reject it also. Which means that you have no intention of following it. Which means you reject the Jewish religion.
My comments are not sarcastic at all. It is, rather, yours that are. Your comments make clear that you think the halacha is outdated, that the rabbis made it all up, and that you reject it. And you complain that people don’t accept you as Jewish?
As I said, the Reform eject the halacha for the very reasons that you cite, and they accept patrilineals. I’m pretty sure there are Karaites out there also. That would give you plenty of space, it seems to me, without having to worry about what I think.
And as far as insensitivity and bad taste are concerned, if you don’t want people taking issue with what you say, I would advise you to not be surprised when Orthodox people get offended when you say halacha is made up and outmoded. If you think you deserve your space, well, we think we deserve ours also.
Ephraim,
I do not think that the Jewish religion is “stupid,” as you so callously suggest. I simply refuse to blindly follow a law that the Rabbis changed — yes, that’s right, Jewish lineage was originally patrilineal — 2000 years ago in response to the growing trend of intermarriage in the Roman empire. I suppose I align myself more with the Karaite way of thinking about oral tradition, the Talmud, etc. Incidentally, I found your response to be unnecessarily rude and insensitive. You know nothing about my life, my beliefs, or my circumstances. My “problem” is people like you who feel the need to make sarcastic comments about a very relevant and very real issue within the Jewish community that, clearly, needs to be addressed! Give me my space and I’ll give you yours. It was not my intention to insult or demean anyone on this board…just to be heard, and to make others aware! Your comments were in bad taste, Ephraim.
Amber:
You have the freedom to choose any kind of Jewish identity you want. And everybody else has the freedom to accept it or not. If you want to make your own identity, well, then, get cracking. Nobody’s stopping you.
However, halachic standards are not “outdated and ancient”. They are as relevant as they have always been, and they always will be. They are the standards by which the Orthodox community lives and by which it defines itself. Without a formal conversion, which is, essentially, a formal recognition of the fact that the convert has agreed to live a religious life, a person will never be accepted in the Orthodox community as a member.
It seems pretty clear that you think the Jewish religion is pretty stupid. If so, it should not surprise you that you don’t feel welcome at your local temple. People usually get pretty offended at people who look down their noses at them while thinking they have a right to be accepted with no questions asked.
Anyway, if you have a Jewish father, I’m pretty sure you would be accepted at a Reform temple, since AFAIK the Reform accept patrilineals. What precisely is your problem?
Regardless of how many times you, OrthoEbony Jewess, and others on this thread proclaim that this the end of the discussion, I can assure you that it is not. There are way too many children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers out there who have fallen through a crack in the system, and to deny them the freedom to choose a Jewish identity without undergoing a formal conversion is extremely wrong. Shame on you for ostracizing and isolating people who don’t meet some ancient, outdated Halachic standard. I have Jewish blood running through my veins and no one can take that away from me. Good luck getting children of intermarriage to convert and join the Jewish community when they are repeatedly reminded of their “otherness.” I can tell you that I have never felt welcome or accepted at my local temple. Many of the posts above make me very sad…and a little big angry….
Wow! I really enjoyed this conversation. I am an African American Orthodox Jewish woman with bi-racial (caucasian) children. Like Ephraim’s family, we also stand out where ever we go. I would like to say kudos to Ephraim for not divulging any personal information about his son online. I’m sure had he done so, people would have tried to track him down. B”H that Eprhaim had the foresight to protect his privacy. My son goes to yeshiva and we haven’t had any problems in our or any other orthodox community. Robin, I know that upsets you, but what you need to realize is that what Ephraim says is true. Once you have a kosher (orthodox) conversion, you are a Jew no matter what. Do people question me on occasion about my Jewishness? Yes, it comes with the territory, but if you’re actually Jewish, why would it upset you. Again, there is no such thing as a half-Jew – you either are or you aren’t. People could argue this topic until their blue in the face; however, if you are not halachically Jewish, you are NOT Jewish. End of discussion!
Jewish father, Italian Catholic mom, raised Protestant as a parental solution.* Jewish last name, “look Jewish,” am always wished happy new year in September (mostly by gentiles). Currently Episcopalian, very beautiful service, don’t feel it applies to me. Love the Christ story — God coming to Earth as a baby — don’t feel it applies to me. At home everywhere and nowhere. Glad to find this site. Considering responding to longstanding impulse to explore the Jewish identity that my parents denied me, and that I have denied myself.
*New Yorker cartoon: A knife and a fork are saying, “We’re raising our children as spoons as a compromise.”
Sara, the Jewish community has many flavors and denominations. Reform, Humanistic, Reconstructionist and many Conservative congregations would accept you openly and warmly. I’m not sure what you mean by “have not been particularly welcome” but it may just be the wrong place or an insufficient length of time at that place so people haven’t gotten to know you.
My mother was Jewish. I wasn’t raised religiously. I have not been particularly welcome within the Jewish community, despite extensive efforts to educate myself. So, I think it is ridiculous to tell those of patrilineal descent that all they need to do is convert. I don’t have to convert, but still the fact that my father was not Jewish is an obstacle. I don’t have a “Jewish” sounding name. People get hung up on that. They are rude about it. So much for halacha.
Dear Noel:
You would be cordially welcomed by my group, the Half-Jewish Network, at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
If you wish to post with any questions or concerns, I can guarantee you a warm welcome.
Many of us have similar life stories, including fathers who were cohanim.
Cordially,
Robin
http://www.half-jewish.net
Hey, ck.
My son recently got married, and my wife’s brother and his wife flew in from Japan for the event. A couple of really funny vignettes:
The receptionist at the JCC where the ceremony was held (a nice Ashkenazi lady in her mid 60s), was a little discombobulated at all of the “Chinese Jews” and asked if she could stay and watch the wedding. She seemed a little disappointed when I told her that outside my immediate family it was a pretty straight-up black-hat yeshivish affair. I think she was expecting gongs, lion dancers and firecrackers or something.
The wife of my son’s chevrusah is a half-black, half-Korean giyoret. Everybody assumed she was my son’s sister.
At the chassan’s tish, while my son was going over the ketubah with the rabbi, I was explaining to my brother-in-law what the ketubah was and how it guaranteed the woman’s rights in case of a divorce so she wouldn’t be left destitute, etc., and he asked “You mean Jewish culture is female-centric?”
All in all, a nice simcha.
That’s harsh noel. Suffice it to say that should you follow your Dad and convert to Judaism, we’ll be glad to have you. Thrilled even!
Ephraim: I can’t believe I missed your last comment on this post! Awesome response.
Robin: You can choose not to believe Ephraim – clearly he doesn’t care what you think. But Israel is a small country and there aren’t many places for an Asian looking Orthodox Rabbi and his family to lay low. Suffice it to say that I know for a fact that Ephraim and his lovely family exist. And they are pretty wonderful. And Orthodox. And beloved members of their community. So there.
ok hows this…my parents were married 22 yrs before my dad (a cohen) got religious. they divorced . my mom was baptist and couldn’t convert since he was cohen. my name is noel. now, i iam trying to figure out what to be….what angst they have caused me!
we were pretty secular / hybrid growing up…oy!
Robin, I just went back and re-read some of your posts. You have spun all sorts of weird conspiacy theories about why I am concealing where my son went to yeshiva and where he got his smicha, assuming he has to hide his racial identity, has to keep a low profile, or that if people knew about it his yeshiva would take flak, or that he might not actually exist, etc., etc.
You need to get a clue. I am only hiding his identity from you.
You seem like a crank with an agenda, and I have respect for my son’s privacy. And I don’t need to prove anything to you. You can believe me or not as you wish.
Anyway, like I already said: he couldn’t hide his racial identity if he wanted to (which he most certainly does not). The only way he could do it is if he went around with a bag over his head.
And, like I said: patrilineal, shmatrilineal bi-racial, shmi-racial. A ger is a new soul and what he may have been pre-conversion is meaningless.
Dear Ephraim:
I’ve waited very patiently for you to give me a few basic facts to support your story of your family.
You haven’t produced any facts. The vast majority of Jews, if I ask them what synagogue they are attending — if they attend one — and they find it welcoming — they are only too eager to tell everyone in world why their shul is special.
I’m usually lucky to escape with just an hour lecture on their Wonderful Shul 🙂
The vast majority of Jews, if I ask them what program their rabbi or cantor son or daughter went to — not even their child’s name — just an inquiry as to the rabbinic program — well, they are extremely happy to tell me about Their Son the Rabbi or Their Daughter the Cantor.
At a bare minimum, they would take pains to let me know which program accepted their wonderful son or daughter.
Indeed, any who makes an inquiry about someone’s rabbi or cantor son or daughter, had better set aside two or three hours to listen to the proud parents 🙂
I’ve also guaranteed your son confidentiality in case he is one of those rabbis who fears that he will not get a pulpit or a job or will have conversion and status problems if it is widely known that he has intermarried parentage.
If you have visited my website, you know that I exist, and I am a woman of my word.
There are postings there from many, many adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage from all over the world, including biracial and patrilineal descendants of intermarriage.
They are all very candid with me if I have occasion to ask about the details of their stories, and they are free to ask for confidentiality or to share them on the message board.
So in the absence of proof, I cannot, at the present time, accept your story. That is a very sad thing, as it would have been wonderful to discover another accepting “pocket” of Orthodoxy.
Sincerely,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Oh, yeah, “interfaith families”:
We’re not an “interfaith” family. We’re Jewish. Any family with the chutzpah to insist on its right to maintain its “interfaithness” while also insisting that they have a right to be accepted by the Orthodox community is of course going to be bruised. That this should surprise you is just astonishing.
Shrug.
Believe me or not as you wish. Machs nicht (makes no difference), as my mother used to say.
My son, who has been following this thread from what he obviously believes is a safe distance, sent me the following link:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=43722795&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100018254&Mytoken=91A002FE-E638-4EDD-9C7016238F8096173547504
If any of this is true, I am glad I trusted my instincts and chose to let my son make the decision to contact you or not. I’m not by nature a betting man, but I think it’s a poretty safe assumption that you won’t be hearing from him any time soon.
Assuming that the sentiments attiributed to you in the article bear even a passing relationship to the truth, why you, your group, and the people associated with it are not welcome in the Orthodox community should be very clear.
You are not interested in helping bi-racial/matrilineals/patrilineals become accepted in the Orthodox comunityon its terms, you are interested in forcing the Orthodox community accept them on your terms. This is a crucial difference, and I assume you are intelligent enough to understand it. In light of this it is clear that your claims of discrimination on the part of the Orthodox are just so much boojwah.
What you’re doing is just your version of “We’re Queer and We’re Here, Deal With It”. It is clear that your agenda is to force the Orthodox to bend to your will and accept anyone as a Jew who says they are, regardless of whether they have any committment to living a life of Torah and mitzvot or not, the ultimate objective being to tear down Torah. And you wonder why people don’t invite you over for Shabbes dinner?
Have a life.
Dear Ephraim:
You state that you are part of an Orthodox, patrilineal, biracial family that has found an accepting Orthodox community.
What Orthodox community do you belong to? If you belong to an accepting Orthodox community, it would be helpful to know which one it is.
You state that you have a son who is a biracial, patrilineal grandchild of intermarriage with only one Jewish grandparent, who has been ordained by an Orthodox yeshiva.
OK. What yeshiva did your son go to? There are some yeshivos that do not want Jews of color and would be very suspicious of patrilineal descendants of intermarriage, so it would be good to know which one your son went to, as that would be an Orthodox yeshiva that does take Jews of color and patrilineals.
Your congregation and your son’s yeshiva would be valuable resources for other biracial families wanting to live as Orthodox Jews.
Your silence about these key facts raises questions about your story.
You also suggest that your family’s personal story means that biracial and patrilineal families can easily find acceptance within the Orthodox community.
I hear from interfaith families from all over the world, and their encounters with Orthodoxy — outside of a few welcoming “pockets” of acceptance — are quite bruising.
That’s why I’m trying to find more welcoming Orthodox “pockets” for them, and that’s why I’ve tried to persuade you to tell me more information.
I can’t send people to an unnamed Orthodox synagogue and an unnamed Orthodox yeshiva.
I would be happy to hear from your son, and perfectly willing to preserve his confidences and privacy.
Sincerely,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Robin, my son will get in touch with you if he wants. While we differ in our approach, I don’t believe that your motives are nefarious; I just would rather let my son get in touch with you himself if he wants to since this will affect him and not me.
Sorry for the double-posting above. Got caught in the moderation filter.
Finally:
Nobody “took a chance†on my son. He is a ger katan in good standing, just as Jewish a Jew as anyone. I really don’t think his race had anything to do with anything. He would have faced the same halachic issues if his mother had been Caucasian. He might have gotten fewer double-takes and stares, but from a halachic standpoint a goyish mother is a goyish mother, whatever her skin color.
You are so desperate to prove your thesis that the Orthodox are racist bigots that you simply canot deal with the fact that my son was accepted just as any other Jew would have been.
I have to tell you that the only people I have known who cannot accept the fact that my son is a Jew are precisely those people who are not religious and who see being Jewish as primarly a matter of race, ethnicity and culture. It is dafka the Jews who wouldn’t know Shabbat if it fell on them who can’t accept the idea of a “Jewpanese†person, much less a “Jewpanese†rabbi. The Orthodox people I know personaly (I cannot vouch for anyone else) have never questioned his status. The only instance I know of is when someone had questions about which beit din did the conversion. This is typical: Orthodox people who take their religion seriously (that is, people who actually believe in G-d and take the commandments seriously, rather than just “Orthodox style†people who see religious observance as primarily a set of cultural practices) are concerned about one thing and one thing only: was the gerut kosher or not and is my son shomer mitzvot or not? That’s it. Once they know that it is and he is, that’s it, end of discussion.
You should tell your biracial and patrilineal families that if they want to be Jewish, then they need to accept “the yoke of the Commandments†with all that entails. That means keeping Shabbat, keeping kosher and all the rest of it. They may come to this point only after a very long process, as was the case with me. I didn’t just wake up one morning and say “Hey, everybody, I know! Let’s be Orthodox! Whaddaya say?†and they said “Yeah, Dad! That’s a great idea! Let’s do it!†It was a long, slow, sometimes painful process. And not just for them. There was a lot I had to give up as well.
In short, a person wanting to be Jewish and be accepted by the Jewish community as a Jew, at least the Orthodox community at any rate, has to prove that he is willing to accept the rules that the Orthodox community has put in place for the acceptance of converts. There really is no middle ground, and the potential ger cannot seek to impose his or her conditions on this process. But once the rules are accepted everything is available. My son accepted those conditionsd and he was accepted in return. If people are not willing to go the whole distance, it should not suprise them if they find themselves not completely accepted within the Orthodox community.
Again, like I said, my son is lurking here and he will let you know where he went to yeshiva and who gave him smicha if he wants to do so. But I have to stress: these institutions did not accept him because they were doing some sort of outreach to bi-racial patrilineals. When he came to them he was a Jew. What his background may or may not have been prior to his conversion was of no consequence.
Robin:
I just found what may be the crux of the disagreement between us.
You say the following regarding your counseling of adult children of intermarriage:
“I suggest that they only become Orthodox if they are really committed to the path, because playing by the rules is no longer enough.”
It goes without saying that a person should only become Orthodox if they are really committed to the path. How could this possibly be otherwise?
But the key is this: “because playing by the rules is no longer enough”.
What this suggests is that you think that there is a difference between being truly committed and “playing by the rules”. And you’re right, there is. It also suggests that there was a time when “playing by the rules” was enough and that now being truly committed is what is required. And you obviously see this as a problem.
People can tell the difference between someone who is truly committed and someone who is trying to just “play by the rules”, that is, someone who is going to try to get away with as little as possible, or, to be a cynic about it, is trying to scam the system.
The whole purpose of a beit din is to smoke these people out and not convert them. If someone really wants to convert and are truly committed, the beit din will see this. If they’re not, the beit din will see this too.
If a matrilineal decides to become sort of observant, however, I doubt anyone would say anything. He would be accepted as a member of the community. Some people might eat at his house, some might not. But when it came time to make a shidduch, and this person wanted to marry someone who was really frum, he would certainly find it difficult, not because this person wasn’t Jewish, but simply because frum people do not want to marry people who aren’t frum. At this point, the level observance becomes the overriding issue. It has nothing to do with whether the person is a Jew or not.
I mean, if I were a Republican and told my fellow Republicans that I was going to vote for brack Obama, how long do you think it would be before they started to give me the hairy eyeball and question my status as a good Republican? This is sort of the same thing.
Dear Friends:
One more thought — and I beg the pardon of the listserve for the successive postings, but these are complex matters, and difficult to discuss briefly — but I will try.
Ephraim apparently believes that if he were to put his son in contact with me, I would descend upon him and his yeshiva, accompanied by network broadcasters. That attributes a great deal of power to me, which is very funny.
That is not what I would be interested in doing at all.
If Ephraim’s son will contact me privately, at my personal email address, I would like to ask him questions about how his yeshiva has treated him. It is very noteworthy to find an accepting Orthodox yeshiva.
For example, many of the Ashkenazi Orthodox preparatory schools in Israel, for example, are excluding Sephardic and Ethiopian young students from the high schools that feed into the yeshivos — allegedly not frum enough, but the real reason is that they are too dark-skinned. They are not tactful about it.
There are a few Orthodox groups working on mutiracial inclusion within Orthodoxy, but they are currently outnumbered by the other folks — so if I could put Ephraim’s son privately in touch with the Orthodox groups working for multiracial inclusion, they would be delighted to connect with him.
I would like to connect him with Bechol Lashon, who would be totally thrilled to talk with him.
I would put him in touch with the leader of a biracial young adults group, who is the matrilneal daughter of a Jewish woman and an Asian man, so she could talk with him about her experiences with Judaism.
I would like to put Ephraim’s son on the Half-Jewish Network’s free email newsletter list.
I know other adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage who are rabbis and cantors, who sometimes keep this hidden because it would — if I understand them correctly — freak out their non-Orthodox or Orthodox congregations.
I would argue that we Jews are made of tougher stuff than that, but I have respected their desire for privacy.
I would respect the desire of Ephraim’s son for privacy if he wished it.
I would also add Eprhaim’s home Orthodox community and his son’s yeshiva to my private mental list of “accepting Orthodox insitutions” in case I found an adult child of intermarriage who wanted to find a shul or a yeshiva.
I think these are all rather harmless initiatives.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Robin, you really need to just stop. There is really something wrong with you.
Nobody “took a chance” on my son. He is a ger katan in good standing, just as Jewish a Jew as anyone. I really don’t think his race had anything to do with anything. He would have faced the same halachic issues if his mother had been Caucasian. He might have gotten fewer double-takes and stares, but from a halachic standpoint a goyish mother is a goyish mother, whatever her skin color.
You are so desperate to prove your thesis that the Orthodox are racist bigots that you simply canot deal with the fact that my son was accepted just as any other Jew would have been.
I have to tell you that the only people I have known who cannot accept the fact that my son is a Jew are precisely those people who are not religious and who see being Jewish as primarly a matter of race, ethnicity and culture. It is dafka the Jews who wouldn’t know Shabbat if it fell on them who can’t accept the idea of a “Jewpanese” person, much less a “Jewpanese” rabbi. The Orthodox people I know personaly (I cannot vouch for anyone else) have never questioned his status. The only instance I know of is when someone had questions about which beit din did the conversion. This is typical: Orthodox people who take their religion seriously (that is, people who actually believe in G-d and take the commandments seriously, rather than just “Orthodox style” people who see religious observance as primarily a set of cultural practices) are concerned about one thing and one thing only: was the gerut kosher or not and is my son shomer mitzvot or not? That’s it. Once they know that it is and he is, that’s it, end of discussion.
You should tell your biracial and patrilineal families that if they want to be Jewish, then they need to accept “the yoke of the Commandments” with all that entails. That means keeping Shabbat, keeping kosher and all the rest of it. They may come to this point only after a very long process, as was the case with me. I didn’t just wake up one morning and say “Hey, everybody, I know! Let’s be Orthodox! Whaddaya say?” and they said “Yeah, Dad! That’s a great idea! Let’s do it!” It was a long, slow, sometimes painful process. And not just for them. There was a lot I had to give up as well.
In short, a person wanting to be Jewish and be accepted by the Jewish community as a Jew, at least the Orthodox community at any rate, has to prove that he is willing to accept the rules that the Orthodox community has put in place for the acceptance of converts. There really is no middle ground, and the potential ger cannot seek to impose his or her conditions on this process. But once the rules are accepted everything is available. My son accepted those conditionsd and he was accepted in return. If people are not willing to go the whole distance, it should not suprise them if they find themselves not completely accepted within the Orthodox community.
Again, like I said, my son is lurking here and he will let you know where he went to yeshiva and who gave him smicha if he wants to do so. But I have to stress: these institutions did not accept him because they were doing some sort of outreach to bi-racial patrilineals. When he came to them he was a Jew. What his background may or may not have been prior to his conversion was of no consequence.
Dear Friends:
I have re-read all of the recent postings to see if there was anything that I missed.
Ephraim states that he lives in the United States.
It would be very helpful to other biracial Jewish families if you would reveal the name of your accepting U.S. Orthodox community and the yeshiva that was willing to take a chance on your son.
Sincerely,
Robin
Dear Friends:
Let me see if I understand things now.
Ephraim states that he has a patrilineal, biracial son with only one Jewish grandparent — who has been ordained as a rabbi by an Orthodox yeshiva.
Ephraim wants me to accept his story as proof that things are much better than I had thought for descendants of intermarriage in Orthodoxy, including biracial descendants.
But Ephraim cannot tell us the name of the yeshiva, his son’s name, the country where Ephraim lives, or the name of their accepting Orthodox community.
This suggests three possible answers:
1. Ephraim’s whole story is made up; or
2. Ephraim’s son does not exist; or
3. Ephraim’s son does exist, but his identity cannot be revealed because his yeshiva would get a ton of flack for ordaining him.
Let’s assume for a moment that Ephraim’s son exists. What does the complete concealment of all circumstances surrounding him say about Orthodoxy?
It says that even though a biracial, patrilineal grandchild of intermarriage with one Jewish grandparent is willing to undergo an Orthodox converion and study for an Orthodox rabbinic ordination — his identity and his yeshiva’s identity must hidden.
This is extremely tragic — if Ephraim’s son exists, he could be a positive role model for other adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage in Orthodoxy. It would be a huge help to many of them.
Now this is not at all the practice of non-Orthodox rabbinical schools — they have begun admitting their first adult children of intermarriage and Jews of color, and have made them available for media interviews.
For an example of how the non-Orthodox world has begun outreaching interfaith families that are also multiracial, see:
http://www.bechollashon.org/about/mission.php#
Both the non-Orthodox and the Orthodox Jews have treated biracial children of intermarriage poorly — but the non-Orthodox are slowly trying to remedy this. I have noticed a few Orthodox activists are becoming involved with this as well.
Bechol Lashon would, by the way, welcome Ephraim’s son, as they are eager to extend their outreach towards all Jewish multiracial families, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.
Now, Ephraim has made several strong statements in previous postings, to the effect that matrilineals are welcome in the Orthodox world and that patrilineals need only have Orthodox conversions to receive a similar warm welcome.
He presented his Orthodox community as very warm and accepting. He seems to view my perceptions about Orthodoxy and adult children of intermarriage as wrong.
Now his story is greatly at variance with the vast majority of adult children of intermarriage encounters with Orthodox Judaism that have been reported to me, including those of biracial adult children of intermarriage.
So I began asking questions.
I had hoped, by asking questions, that Ephraim’s story might fall into one of two categories of accepting Orthodox “pockets”:
1. some tiny, geographically isolated Jewish Orthodox communities are very accepting of patrilineals, including patrilineals who have not converted, and biracial families — this usually results from their historic tradition or from the isolation of their communities.
But such communities are not hidden — there are sporadic news articles and interviews with their rabbis, in which the community’s attitudes towards patrilineals and biracial families are explained by their Orthodox rabbis, if they have a rabbi.
If Ephraim’s son belongs to one of those communities, why hide him?
2. Other “pockets of acceptance”include some frum Orthodox communities, and some modern Orthodox communities. A few biracial children of intermarriage and people of color converts have found welcoming Orthodox communities.
Now the degree of welcome varies. Some communities make it clear to biracial adult children and people of color converts that they will never be equal to the FFBs (Frum From Birth) or even baal teshuvahs with two white Jewish parents.
But a few Orthodox communities — modern and frum — have gone out of their way to treat these families as possible equals. And they have encouraged them to write books, given interviews, and go on tours about their experiences. So they do not hide these community members, quite the opposite.
If Ephraim’s son was a member of one of those communities, he would not be hidden.
It would have been a wonderful discovery to find another such “accepting pocket.”
As the Coordinator of the Half-Jewish Network, I review, almost on a daily basis, Jewish media from all over the world, and much coverage of Orthodoxy revolves around challenges to conversions. These challenges disproportionately affect adult children of intermarriage and their parents.
It is not just a few Haredi rabbis in Israel. I receive reports that indicate that the Ashkenazi Orthodox rabbinate in England has decided to start challenging conversions done by Sephardi rabbinic courts in Israel, and so on.
It would be very nice to have some positive news from Orthodoxy for the adult children of intermarriage.
Now I definitely exist. I have a website for the adult children of intermarriage. I co-authored the first book-length study of adult children of intermarriage. I am a rabbinical student.
But does Ephraim’s son exist? In the absence of any evidence for the existence of Ephraim’s son or his rabbinical program or his rabbinic ordination, I remain uncertain.
Several years ago, someone began posting on the Half-Jewish Network website, claiming to be the patrilineal grandchild of an intermarriage, and stating that, althought he had not converted, he lived among the Orthodox as a non-Jew.
He was very scornful of the rest of us for presuming to claim Jewish identity without halachic conversions. He also claimed to have been welcomed by the Orthodox.
We discovered, very quickly, that he was — apparently — an Orthodox Jew — no relation to intefaith families — who had assumed a false identity on our boards to — apparently — defend the honor of Orthodox Judaism?
So I proceed with caution when someone makes unusual or unverifiable claims about their situation as an adult child or grandchild of intermarriage in Orthodoxy.
If Ephraim’s story about his son is true, it suggests to me that they live in an Orthodox community — or his son attended a yeshiva in an Orthodox community — where people who are biracial or patrilineal or converts and who enter a rabbinic program have to keep a low profile.
That is discouraging.
Finally, most families with a rabbinic student or a cantorial student are very open about their student. They are only too happy to tell you the seminary or yeshiva their student attended, etc.
One might say that they are overwhelmingly informative 🙂
It is quite unusual to see a family member who wishes to conceal the identity of a family member who is a rabbinic student or ordained, or who will not tell you what program their family member attended.
So on that account also, I am not certain of Ephraim’s story.
Sincerely,
Robin
What ck said, basically.
Wow. What an interesting thread this has evolved into. Ephraim and froylein – thanks for sharing. Your experiences and ideas have been enlightening and ought to give Robin pause for thought. This issue is one that goes beyond mere technicalities and touches at the very heart of what it means to be Jewish and what is entailed by Jewish peoplehood. To those whom Judaism is essentially a spiritual identity based on religious observance, the rules of belonging are pretty clearly spelled out. Whereas to those for whom religious practice is a non-issue but who identify their Jewish identity as being situated along the lines of culture and history, Jewish identity can exist even when religious authorities do not recognize it. At a certain point I guess I made the decision to be as inclusive as I can be given my adherence to the religious line. Thus I am welcoming and try to be inclusive since whether I agree or not, these “half Jews” or whatever have bound their fates to mine – in essence, their people are my people. My hope in this respect, and I don’t hide it, is that they are somehow inspired to undergo a religious conversion if they are not halachically Jewish. Until that happens, I cannot marry them, call them to an aliyah or have them be active participants in any religious ritual. But that doesn’t stop me from including them in other aspects of my Jewish life. It is sometimes a difficult balancing act and sometimes people’s feelings are hurt, but I don’t think I do anyone any favors by being dishonest about the religious reality of their status.
As far as halachic converts go, once converted these people are as Jewish as I and any questioning of that is, simply put, an enormous sin. The silly games played by the Haredi Beit Din that sought to retroactively invalidate thousands of conversions by a Rabbi not politically aligned with them is a classic example of Chillul Hashem, bringing shame upon the practice of Judaism.
So there. See? I can be objective and critical…
Oh Ephraim, I went in line with your comment; that is exactly what Robin seems to be trying. I know this comment might well provoke another lengthy comment in which I’ll get accused of things I’ve never even said and in which sectarian Christian pseudo-theology is trying to be passed off as original Judaism. I know quite a few people with mixed religious backgrounds that are more than welcome at Reform shuls and usually welcome at Conservadox shuls as long as they ackowledge and respect the congregants’ beliefs and values. Even non-Jews are usually welcome at services as long as they observe certain patterns of polite behaviour. My father’s Catholic, yet most of my friends are Chasidim. I have never ever been looked down upon by observant Jews based on my background, and while I’m not observant in the slightest, I maintain a certain affection for Judaism and respect its more observant varieties. Jewish eschatology has it that any righteous person can receive salvation, regardless of religious adherence. This is the most open-minded eschatology of all Abrahamite religions. So, if somebody doesn’t want to bother pursuing a religious Jewish lifestyle, how can they have the chutzpe to dare demanding that religious Jews must acknowledge them as being Jewish – even though they initially decide against it? Those claims are based on nothing but the subjective feeling of an assumed “justice” that cannot be derived from the religious practice in its observant form, are not based on religious or socio-religious discourse, and, at that, are not only ignorant but disrespectful of observant Judaism. Reform Judaism, as I’ve stated above, does acknowledge the paternal line, so it’s not as if the congregations weren’t there should one seriously try to get involved in Jewish community and spiritual life. If one chooses not to, why bother calling oneself a Jew other than hoping to receive certain social benefits that apparently a certain demographic in the US believes to be attached to being Jewish? That said, if the antibiotics didn’t already cause me nausea, that demagoguery alone would make me sick.
Yes, it is unusual, I grant you that. People are often thrown for a loop, but they get over it.
I went into shul once with my kids when they still young, and some old guy who was visiting couldn’t believe his eyes. He got that “Something is happening here but you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?” look on his face and turned to the person he was talking to and said “What are the Chinese doing here?”
It isn’t that I don’t believe you, it is just that there are so many tall tales on the net it is hard to take things like this at face value. You must admit yours is not the usual situation.
I often say “cite please.”
I don’t think Robin is a net stalker but better safe than sorry. We do need to be careful online.
Sorry, Justin, if my son wants to tell everyone, he will. As I said, he knows about this thread.
The reason I don’t want to say anything is that the chances are extremely high that he has been the only half-Japanese student there. I don’t think that the yeshiva would appreciate being pestered by people they don’t know asking about their graduates. And I doubt they would give out his name unless he gave them permission to do so. And if they did, it is likely that Robin might try to get in touch with him. And I don’t think he wants that.
Of course, if you and Robin don’t want to believe me, that’s fine too. No skin off my nose.
Froylein, not getting this:
“Traditional (as in Reform) / religious (as in Conservadox) Jews are being painted as evil for being religiously practising while being of paternal lineage respectively adhering to one of the pillars of their belief.”
Ephraim – I think Robin has a valid point asking about where your son studied. It would not be violative of his privacy to give the name without a date. He could hardly be the only one in attendance. I think Robin’s point is valid because the nature of internet argument is that you can say anything (not you in particular) and bolster it with “facts” that are not supplied. It would be interesting if you answered Robin’s question. Again, I am not questioning you per se but this is the nature of an internet debate.
Ephraim, I suppose you’ve hit the nail on the head. Traditional (as in Reform) / religious (as in Conservadox) Jews are being painted as evil for being religiously practising while being of paternal lineage respectively adhering to one of the pillars of their belief. As I said above, the theology we get catered here is not a Jewish one by any standard, unless somebody officially founds a stream of non-practising, non-believing, non-observant Jews of paternal descendance that at best pursue select customs (that many, even Orthodox, Jews just as well share with non-Jewish friends). At that, the whole concept seems pretty pointless to me unless the intention can be derived from that non-Jewish theology.
Sorry, must have hit the wrong key. My previous message was sent without being complete.
Robin, I don’t mean to sound disrespectful or condescending, but you seem more than a little dense.
It should be obvious to you by now that my son is a ger. As such, yichus, or the lack thereof, is not (supposed to be) an issue. Once he’s a convert, he’s as Jewish as anyone born that way. It seems to surprise you that there are Orthodox communities who take this seriously, but my son is living proof that there are. I am not denying that some people in my son’s situation may have encountered some insensitive people. Again, all I can say is that has not been my son’s experience.
Out of respect for my son’s privacy, I’m not going to tell you where he went to yeshiva or where he got his smicha. But they’re mainstream Orthodox in the yeshivish velt, if that’s what you’re after. My son is lurking on this thread, so if he wants to respond, he will. And we live in the US, not out in Hotzeplotz somewhere.
Finally, I don’t understand why you seem so impressed with the “bravery†of the yeshiva to give smicha to someone whom, according to you, they should not consider Jewish at all. Do you think there’s a bunch of Orthodox enforcers with baseball bats lurking in the alley ready to break the kneecaps of people who get out of line and start taking in half-breeds? Just who is having issues with my son’s Jewishness, you or the Orthodox? Or does it trouble you that my son is not obsessing over his “halfness†and has decided to embrace his Yiddishkeit fully (or, if you prefer, “drink the Kool-Aid”) rather than tilt at self-made windmills?
You seem to have a lot invested in proving that the Orthodox are a bunch of bigots, but this is getting a little tiresome.
You need to get out more.
Robin, I don’t mean to sound disrespectful or condescending, but you seem more than a little dense.
It should be obvious to you by now that my son is a ger. As such, yichus, or the lack thereof, is not (supposed to be) an issue. Once he’s a convert, he’s as Jewish as anyone born that way. It seems to surprise you that there are Orthodox communities who take this seriously, but my son is living proof that there are.
Out of respect for my son’s privacy, I’m not going to tell you where he went to yeshiva or where he got his smicha. But they’re mainstream Orthodox in the yeshivish velt, if that’s what you’re after. My son is lurking on this thread, so if he wants to respond, he will.
Finally, I don’t understand why you seem so impressed with the “bravery” of the yeshiva to give smicha to someone whom you obviously seem to think that such people should, according to you, not consider Jewish at all. Do you think there’s some sort of Orthodox boogeyman with a baseball bat lurking in the alley ready to break the kneecaps of people who get out of line and start taking in half-breeds? Who is having issues with my son’s Jewishness, you or the Orthodox? Or does it trouble you that my son is not obsessing over his “halfness” and has decided to
You seem to have a lot invested in proving that the Orthodox are a bunch of bigots, but this is getting a little tiresome.
You need to get out more.
Dear Ephraim:
Please excuse me, but there are some things that I am still not understanding about your story, so bear with me.
Which Orthodox seminary or rabbinical school ordained your son?
They took a huge risk, since he is patrilineal, biracial, and has only one Jewish grandparent.
Let me explain my question — the non-Orthodox denominations have just recently begun admitting and graduating their first patrilineal and biracial rabbis and cantors. It’s a big deal, like a milestone, and there are news stories about it.
Please let me know what Orthodox seminary it is, as this is very important. If an Orthodox seminary is brave enough to risk this, I’d like to know who they are. That would be something I would really respect.
Second, are you by any chance living in a small Jewish community outside of the U.S. and Israel? Because you seem so surprised by much of what I say about Orthodoxy’s treatment of adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage, as if much of what I say is new to you.
So who ordained your son? I’d be delighted to know, it would be wonderful. And what country are you living in, where the Orthodox fully welcome families like yours?
Cordially,
Robin
Jennifer, my thoughts go out to your uncle. However, I always suggest getting second opinions, particularly since the word’s been out that the donor can as well be a random one, not based on blood type, so the genetically closest are the immediate relatives. Besides, as I mentioned above, I’ve encountered several Ashkenazi doctors that proudly adapted that racial rhetoric that others came up with 80 years earlier, which doesn’t make it any more credible to me, knowing that there wwere no birth records whatsoever prior to the Council of Trient and that many features have been acquired living in Europe. Communities were not as separated from their environment as some “patriotic” historians try to make them appear to have been; cultural exchange was alive and thriving, there are many evidences for that in language, cuisine and rite. And pretty obviously, there was genetic exchange as well.
Back to the doctors, I once was treated by the expert on an illness I had; he considered me a rare case, used my case as an example at an international conference – and still gave me a routine treatment. He was so convinced of himself that he didn’t even consider other options, which ultimately almost killed me. I could lots more examples from my intermediate families and friends where treatments carried out by specialists have gone wrong (and we’re in the lucky position to have the world’s finest hospitals around here). If you can afford it, get a second opinion, preferably by a doctor that’s not at the same hospital, attends the same school / country club / golf club and / or was a fellow student of the first doctor’s.
Jennifer:
If your point is that you simply want people to recognize that “half-Jews” are entitled their own cultural identities, well, there is no way to deny that. Culture is actively created by people; it is not fixed and unchanging. If you create this “half-Jewish” culture, well, then, there it will be. If it is real, it will take on a life of its own. If it isn’t, it will fall away. Only time will tell.
No one can deny that someone who has a Jewish parent or grandparent is going to be influenced by this. The only rub is what such people expect the Jewish community to do about it, if anything.
My brother married a gentile woman and they have a daughter. I like her a lot, and she and my children are very close. She knows she has a Jewish father and being the family geneologist she has an interest in this (my brother, actually, is far less interested and concerned with this, interestingly enough). She had a “Seder” with some friends and family members as well as an Easter dinner.
To me this is bizarre, but since it is certain that she intended nothing actually religious in a traditional sense by either of these observances (she is not a Christian, either) it is neither here nor there. I hope she had fun, and I do not begrudge her her right to do whatever it is she wants to do. I mean, I won’t go to her “Seder”, but I can’t tell her not to do it, as strange as I think it is. And she would be welcome to attend my Seder if she wanted to, although it would have no religious significance since she is not obligated to observe it. (Speaking from experience, however, this sort of syncretism just winds up confusing the children if they ever decide to take religion sreiously.)
However, if she insisted that she had certain rights within the Jewish community while also insisting that it was her right to identify as a Jew in any way she chose even if her ideas were at variance with traditional practice, there would definitely be a problem.
I do not deny that being mixed is problematic. But when it comes to identifying with the Jewish community as opposed to identifying as somehow “Jewish” on a personal level, which anyone and everyone is free to do, I suppose, one cannot have one’s cake and eat it too. I made a choice to be Jewish. I realize others in a similar position might not make the same choice.
Finally, being Jewish is, essentially a spiritual condition as opposed to a physical one. This spiritual reality creates a physical one, the Jewish people. But the essence of being Jewish is a matter of ruchnius (spirituality) not gashmius, or physicality. I think this is the ultimate cause of the difference of opinions about what it means to be Jewish.
Ephraim,
I was referring to these parts of your post:
“I do not deny that the Jewish community could probably be better at outreach to “half-Jewsâ€. ”
and
“They may be part Jewish in a genetic or cultural sense, and if that is what they are looking for, who am I to stop them? Zie gezunt, be happy. That’s what the Reform do, anyway. They don’t beg the Orthodox to accept them; they make up their own rules and create their own communities.”
It’s the acknowledgment that we are a people out there and not invisible. We’re not asking that we be seen as the same as Orthodox or Conservative Jews, merely that we are entitled to our own cultural identities.
Now that I’ve read a little more about your background though, it makes more sense to me that being a product of mixed marriage yourself and then marrying a non-jewish person (before conversion), you would be better equipped to at least entertain some of the points we (half-jews on this discussion) are trying to make.
froylein,
My uncle saw some of the best doctors in the country at one of the best hospitals in Manhattan and it was made quite clear to us that the donor would have to be of ashkenazi decent in order for them to be a match based on my uncle’s genetic makeup.
Anyhow, it makes sense to me that if this part of my ancestral lineage is pulsing through my blood, then it would be unjust of me to deny it based on my not being a practising jew.
Robin:
Regarding my son’s “background”, it would be hard not to know it. All you have to do is look at his face. Jewish people are, of course, a little dscombobulated when they first meet him, but it soon passes.
The Asian people he meets always assume he is 100% Asian, including Japanese people in Japan, where he grew up. He can easily pass for a native-born Japanese with no questions asked. When he tells Japanese people he meets for the first time his family name (people go by family names in Japan) , they always assume it is a Japanese name but that it is just a bit rare, or that they didn’t quite catch it, or something. It usually takes a few minutes for him to convince them that it is a foreign name, and they are always shocked when they realize he is half-Caucasian. His fluent Japanese helps, obviously.
Just in the interests of full disclosure, I got religious after we were married and everyone converted at once, my older boys when they were 12 years old and the youngest at birth.
I don’t deny that had I approached the wrong community things could have gone badly. However, as I said, our committment to living a Shomer Shabbat life is what has made the difference. I find it hard to believe that a patrilineal “half-Jew”, if he/she proved his/her sincerity to live a life of Torah and mitzvot, would be denied conversion or have his/her status questioned after the fact. That being said, there are always going to be extreme elements in any community who will never eat at anyone else’s house, so to speak.
Every community, unfortunately, has its share of bigots. You need to stay away from such people. I have been following with some trepidation the developments in the rabbinate in Israel, especially the recent controversy about R. Druckman’s conversions being challenged. IIRC, the Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel came out very strongly against what the anti-Druckman clique was trying to do. One good reason why politics and government should stay far away from each other unilt Moshiach comes. The danger of corruption is just too great. At the same time, this sort of thing is an inevitable result of Jewish national independence.
Regarding issues of personal status, when Jews were everywhere an oppressed minority, there was no conceivable advantage to be gained by saying one was Jewish if one actually was not. Intermarriage was extremely rare, and most religious communities lived fairly self-contained lives. Dress, diet and language made who was whom obvious. It was therefore reasonable to simply believe anyone who said they were Jewish. Nowadays, with assimilation and intermarriage rampant and Jewishness having something of a cachet (this waxes and wanes), simply taking a person at his or her word is not such a simple matter anymore.
The Torah community is always going to put Torah and mitzvot ahead of anything and everything. The stories you relate are very sad, and I hope they are the exception rather than the norm. All I can say is that I personally have never experienced the kind of discrimination of which you speak and neither have my children.
Ephraim’s wife converted prior to marriage. I think that should be pretty clear by now. Hence, his children are halachically Jewish, and there’s no reason whatsoever for them not to pursue religious lifestyles and be accepted as religious Jews. Jews are supposed to discourage aspiring converts from converting (a concept based on Jewish eschatology), but onc somebody’s converted, they’re supposed to be honoured. King David’s grandmother, BTW, was a convert for all we know.
Dear Ephraim:
Please be patient with me, as I am not sure I am understanding you.
Your son is a biracial, patrilineal Jew, with only one Jewish grandparent, and he got into an Orthodox rabbinical school?
Which Orthodox rabbinical program admitted him? Do they know about his background?
Cordially,
Robin
You sem to have misunderstood me. My son is half-Japanese (his mother is a convert) and he recently received an Orthodox rabbinic ordination. He is engaged to be married to a young woman whose mother is Jewish and whose father is not.
Dear Ephraim:
Please pardon my curiosity, but you must live in a very unusual Orthodox community to believe that children of intermarriage “might” have some problems in the Orthodox community. We definitely have massive problems.
I was frankly puzzled by something else you said.
Maybe you can explain something — if I understand you correctly, you said that your Orthodox rabbi’s half-Japanese son recently became engaged to a young woman who is half-Jewish and half-Irish, with a Jewish mother.
I have never heard of an Orthodox community that would hire an intermarried rabbi.
Nor would most Orthodox shuls be especially thrilled by a member of their rabbi’s family marrying someone else who was the child of an intermarriage with a nun for an aunt.
I would be delighted to know of an Orthodox community like that exists.
What synagogue is it?
Cordially,
Robin
Robin:
I don’t remember reading any posts from you. I was replying to Jennifer.
Anyway, I’m Jewish, and Orthodox, and I have had no problems even though my father is a gentile. I can understand that adult children of intermarriage whose mothers are not Jewish might have some problems, but that’s because they’re not Jews. I don’t think Orthodox people should be mean to such people, and if such people come to the Orthodox community looking for answers, I hope that their situation is explained to them in a compassionate way. Other than that, unless such people want to convert properly, I’m not sure if the Orthodox community can do much for them. If they do want to convert, I hope that they are treated with the respect that they deserve.
Dear Ephraim:
I am sure my reply to your two postings must have seemed very long. It is just very difficult to explain briefly how the position of adult children of intermarriage within some segments of Orthodoxy has altered over the last 20 years, both in Israel and the Diaspora.
If you want more information, you would be welcome to contact me at:
[email protected]
and I could explain at greater length.
Cordially,
Robin
http://www.half-jewish.net
Dear Ephraim:
You seem to be speaking to other adult children of intermarriage from the standpoint that you are accepted within Orthodoxy as a matrilineal Jew, and if the rest of us would convert via Orthodox ritual, we too would be accepted.
That used to be true to some extent, but it is not nowadays. I will explain.
Nowadays, your family’s identity as “Orthodox Jews” will only be unquestioned as long as you live in an Orthodox Jewish community that accepts you.
If you venture outside of it, into other Orthodox communities, and let your parentage be known, you will soon discover that your Orthodox Jewish identity is not “portable.”
I routinely receive reports from other adult children of intermarriage, including people with Jewish mothers who live as Orthodox Jews, and patrilineals who had Orthodox conversions, that their Jewishness is still questioned.
They have obeyed all the Orthodox rules, dotted all the “i”s and crossed all the “t’s” — but that does spare them discrmination in schiduchim, for example — they are regarded as less worthy of a Jewish spouse than people with two Jewish parents.
One of them wrote me very bitterly recently, that I should speak up about the discrmination he experiences in Orthodoxy, and how he was promised that as a matrilineal, he would be treated the same as the other Orthodox — but he is not, despite his earnest commitment to halachic pratice.
He told me that he feels that he was defrauded by the claim that as a matrilineal who wished to live as an Orthodox Jew, he would be welcomed by the Orthodox.
He’s even been told not to use his Christian father’s last name during the shidduch process, only his Jewish mother’s surname. What kind of acceptance is that?
I promised him that I would speak up for him, and I am doing so.
And your suggestion that that adult children of intermarriage who are not considered Jewish should undergo Orthodox conversions — for the patrilineals and people with no Jewish parentage — those conversions are no longer guaranteed, once accomplished.
An Israeli Orthodox rabbinic court, in a fit of pique, recently invalidated several thousand Orthodox conversions, merely to attack a rabbi from another faction whom they dislike.
I have even read a call by one Orthodox rabbi that people who have a non-Jewish father should be barred from the yeshivas. I believe that his views will spread.
And if you doubt me, start visiting Orthodox websites, and mention casually that your father wasn’t Jewish — and that you think Judaism should do more outreach to adult children of intermarriage — in a very polite manner — wait and see how you are greeted.
I assure you that you will not be applauded, quite the opposite. And at least one person responding to you will say something about how you are not Jewish enough or really a Jew because your father wasn’t Jewish. Or how only someone with a non-Jewish father would suggest such a thing.
You will be surprised when no one rebukes that person, or does so in a very half-hearted manner.
I’m warning you now that eventually an Orthodox Jewish community — perhaps several — may question your Jewish identity or the Jewish identity of a member of your family.
Orthodoxy is increasingly not honoring its own halachos on conversion, and its own matrilineal “who is a Jew?” rules.
It’s not a question of us “taking the plunge.”
When an adult child of intermarriage comes to me and says “I want to live as an Orthodox Jew,” I support them and we discuss the various angles, depending on whether they are patrilineal or matrilineal — but I warn them not to count on being Orthodox as a “gold standard” that will protect them from discrimination anymore.
I warn them — there are piles of examples in the Jewish media — that their “Jewish” status can be yanked from them on a minute’s notice by an Orthodox rabbinic court.
I suggest that they only become Orthodox if they are really committed to the path, because playing by the rules is no longer enough.
There was recently a case in Israel where a young woman had a Jewish mother and a Christian father, and had been brought up in Israel as a Jew, and wanted to get married — and permission was denied by a rabbinic court until she could prove that her mother was Jewish.
And that proof is not so easy to find — her own mother’s word wasn’t good enough — her mother is an obvious Jew, and made aliyah to Israel when her daughter was young — but that wasn’t enough for the rabbinic court — she finally — at great expense, had to locate a graveyard in the United States and synagogue records.
How many people have that kind of money for such a search? what if the synagogue had been torn down? what if the graveyard no longer existed?
What if that happened to you or a member of your family? I’m sure that you can put yourself in her place. You and I are both matrilineals.
And in European Jewish communities, such demands for proof of Jewish parentage can verge on a shanda (disgrace) — many communities and their records and graveyards were destroyed in the Holocaust, so asking adult children of intermarriage for such proofs is often an attempt to exclude them from the Jewish community.
And since the Israeli rabbinic recently forced the American Orthodox RCA (rabbinical association) to conform to their conversion hierarchy, we will soon start seeing this behavior in the U.S.
Twenty years ago, when I first began advocating for adult chldren of intermarriage, most Orthodox Jewish communities treated matrilineal adult children of intermarriage, like yourself, as Jews. One’s word was generally sufficient, plus a verbal account of family history. Paper evidence was nice, or an object like a family menorah, but not essential.
I didn’t care for their “Jewish mothers only” stance, but at least they honored it to some extent. I say to some extent, because even then there were segments of the Orthodox community who made it clear to me that they were not friendly to matrilineals.
Within my own lifetime I have seen a change — a growing turning away from this acceptance of matrilineals among some Orthodox — disguised as demands for “more proof” that one’s mother is Jewish. It is used to discourage and, to my perception, exclude matrilineals from Jewish communities in Europe and Israel.
When you refer to matrilineals like yourself as “Jews” and patrilineals as “not Jews” — another way of looking at us is that we are your peer group. We are your brothers and sisters, symbolically speaking.
If you sat in a room full of us, you would see no visible ways of identifying matrilineals from patrilineals. But you would feel immediate commanalities with us, and a warm welcome, and you would find people who share your difficulty in relating to one parent’s heritage.
Consider reaching out to us, and defending us. Please don’t call some of us, your brothers and sisters,”not Jewish.” That does not draw people into Judaism.
If you doubt anything that I’ve said, feel free to visit the Half-Jewish Network website, and visit our special page to welcome Orthodox adult children of intermarriage:
http://www.half-jewish.net/orthojewchildren.html
And if you visit the Half-Jewish Network message board, you’ll see what it is like when we assemble and assist each other.
And re-read this entire Jewilicious thread — and ask yourself — this thread has a lot of comments from Orthodox and Conservadox 20 30somethings about adult children of intermarriage — is this a friendly, respectful thread? Is this a thread that attempts to draw half-Jeiwsh people into Judaism? Is this a kindly thread?
If you were the adult children of an intermarriage who wasn’t part of Judaism yet, and you stumbled on this thread — would it encourage you to live as an Orthodox Jew?
Consider joining the rest of us, and helping us. At least pay a visit to our website at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
and see for yourself what we’ve learned.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
Jennifer, I think you are the only person on this BB that has ever called me compassionate and understanding. I’m glad you took it that way.
My point is pretty much the same as froylein’s though. According to Orthodox halacha (the only real kind of halacha there is) some members of the “Halbe Juden” “community” you have created/are attempting to create are actually Jews (those with Jewish mothers) while the rest are not. These are just facts. Orthodox outreach to such people would by necessity be limited to the actual Jews. Any other people who felt themselves to be Jewish and who wanted to actually be Jewish would have to convert, with all that entails.
I know a woman who is half black and half Korean. She always wanted to be Jewish, and so she converted. It is because of her that her family is frum. Her religiosity convinced her then-secular Jewish boyfriend to become religious, since she would accept anything but a proper Jewish husband. If she can become a Jew, anyone can.
Since I am a product of a mixed mariage myself, I can understand the existential pain of a “Half Jew” who is not actually Jewish as he or she struggles with his/her bifurcated identity. For me, it is the reverse: there are certain aspects of my father’s background to which I wish I could relate. But it’s not really possible.
I went to Munich on a business trip once. Somehow it seemed familiar and kind of haimish. To be perfectly honest, there was a certain part of me that was shocked and disappointed that I did not feel more uncomfortable to be “in the Belly of the Beast” so to speak. But I just did not feel that way (part of that must also be due to the fact that the Jewish side of my family is German also). Finally, though, it was all just a bit surreal, especially the street sign on the Ringstrasse (a circular road that rings the old part of Munich) that said “Dachau, 10 kilometers”. I practially jumped out of my skin. To top it all off, I know from my father that he had a cousin his own age from a branch of the family that stayed in Germany who was killed on the Eastern Front fighting the Russians in WWII. He may have even been SS. I don’t know for sure. But it is bizarre to realize that I had a relative who would have put me in a concentration camp had I been around at the time. So, basically, I just don’t think about it.
Anyway, all I am saying is that people from mixed backgrounds (or anyone from any background, for that matter) will self-identify in the way that suits them best. There is no way the organized Jewish community, of whatever persuasion, can do anything to prevent that. So you will do whatever it is you want and call yourselves whatever it is you want. But to the extent that you don’t want to take the plunge and actually be Jewish, seeking “acceptance” from the Jewish community is probably something that you will have to learn to live without.
Jennifer, good to read that your daughter’s fine. There are, no doubt, genetic ties among Ashkenazi families – those ties aren’t only limited to those though but also to the people of their former environments, with who they shared a great deal of cultural as well genetic information. There are parts in Europe that hardly ever had any sizable Jewish population at any given time besides the recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union. I know a few (Jewish mostly) doctors like to pride themselves in determining “Jewish” genes, at that just bringing up the same old racist bullocks that the Nazis promoted. As far as serious transgenics is concerned, a study recently published determined that all blue-eyed people (of which there are many among Ashkenazi Jews) stem from a common ancestor that lived around the Black Sea a few millennia ago, not being Jewish at that. Now, since blue eyes are a recessive part of genetic information, they can only be passed on if both parents possess “blue-eye code”. If it’s a heterozygous phenotype, a blue-eyed grandparent on each side will do even if both parents are brown-eyed; if it’s a homozygous one, both parents would have to be blue-eyed to pass on that genetic information. Bottom line is that dark features generally are genetically dominant, and a lot of the transgenics pseudo-science these days as well as over the past decades has been used to categorize racist stereotypes. As for bone marrow transplantations, I was told by a doctor a while back that any donor will do, a closer one just will increase the chances of success, but the search for donors mostly is about spreading awareness and raising funds. Even if you’ve got great insurance, not everything doctors do is in the patient’s best interest, e.g. terminally ill cancer patients have been found out to not only live longer but also feel way better if they don’t get told about their condition, but that’s a different story altogether. There’s no genetic code for culture, however. Culture is socially acquired through direct and indirect education. Unlike a few types of migratory birds, humans don’t pass on behavioural patterns and cultural structures in their genetic code, otherwise the documented cases of wolf-children would have told a story of divverent behavioral development and easy integration into a human environment.
One more thing, I just thought of when reading your post, Froylein, about tracing one’s lineage. When I was pregnant with my daughter, the doctor’s found a cyst in her brain that could have been fatal or could also just go away before she was born. Because of this I had to have an amnio done and go through genetic counseling. During this genentic counseling which is really just a very detailed survey of questions about family history, it was explained to me that my daughter was at risk for certain defects that are inherent to ashkenazi jews, which my family is. Thankfully, my daughter turned out fine and it was just a scare.
Recently my uncle was diagnosed with leukemia and after many failed chemo treatments, he was directed to look for donor matches for bone marrow. The doctors told him that the match would have to be an ashkenazi jew.
My point is that there is some validity to the jewish ethnicity that I’ve been talking about. It’s in our blood. And I didn’t even need to trace my lineage back to know that one.
Ephraim – I enjoyed reading your post and felt that you are displaying the type of compassion and understanding that I’d love to see more of in the community. I completely agree that had I or someone like me wanted to marry a religious jew, it would be completely understandable and expected that one would need to convert to Judaism completely.
Ephraim, first of all: mazel tov!
Also, thanks for backing my point (as stated in comments #126 and #129).
What I forgot to mention earlier, there’s no such thing as “Jewish food” apart from matzah as what people pereceive as “Jewish food” are kosher adaptions of the regional cuisine of wherever Jews settled. Also, I come from a family with three generations’ love for Italian pop music and Italian cuisine. My father studied in Italy, I was conceived in Italy, I learnt Italian at school. I talk with my hands a lot more than typical Germans do and there are a few Italians in the family tree eight generations back, but still, I’m not Italian. I can feel a certain affinity in a way for Italy, but if I want to be Italian, I’ll have to undergo the procedure of applying for citizenship there and follow suit with anything that ensues, e.g. moving there, working there, respecting their constitution, really mastering the language etc.
Speaking of “half-Jews”, my half-Japanese Jewpanese Orthodox rabbi son just got engaged to a nice girl with a Jewish mother and an Irish father who also has an aunt who is a nun. (This one’s for you, Tom.)
My mother is Jewish and my father comes from a German Lutheran background. They both used to be Communists, and now they’re both Zen Buddhists. I was raised as secular as can be, but now I’m Orthodox. Nobody (in the Orthodox community, at any rate) questions the status of my children. If they did, there is no way my son could ever have become a rabbi. My entire family is living proof that anyone can become a Jew if they accept the rules of what it means to be a member of the Jewish community. That’s all it takes. Nobody complains that someone who wants to be a doctor has to go to medical school and pass all the tests. This is no different.
I do not deny that the Jewish community could probably be better at outreach to “half-Jews”. The thing is, many of these “half-Jews” are, like myself, just Jews. The ones with Jewish fathers aren’t Jews.
It is true that such people of course share the culture and DNA of their Jewish parent, just as my children share the Japanese DNA of their mother. If they want to call themselves Jews, eat latkes with sausage and create a community of people of the same general background, no one is stopping them. They may be part Jewish in a genetic or cultural sense, and if that is what they are looking for, who am I to stop them? Zie gezunt, be happy. That’s what the Reform do, anyway. They don’t beg the Orthodox to accept them; they make up their own rules and create their own communities.
But if they want to marry my children and be counted in a minyan, then they should not complain if people ask them to pay ther price of admission first.
Jennifer, since I consider patrilineal “ethnicity” just as valid as matrilineal one, call yourself a Jew based on that. Now, since Judaism is a faith rather than an ethnicity unless one wants to trace one’s lineage back to possibly common ancestors thousands of years ago, I’d rather people call themselves Jewish if they actively and deliberately lead a Jewish life. If they don’t, why bother labelling themselves? Apropos, many assumedly “Jewish” traditions observed in many overseas Jewish families often were not established in the families before arriving in the New World and often are copies or counter-reactions to a predominantly Christian environment. Chanukka, for instance, used to be no big deal in Europe and only became huge (and big business at that) in the US, its new interpretations (as in interpretation of practice) getting spread back in Europe thanks to American TV shows.
I don’t feel attacked, just a tad annoyed by people that try to sell off Christian theology as novelty or re-discovered Judaism (this is not directed at you), and one should be wary of those people. I don’t mind Christians, and I’m not shy to admit that my background is mixed, but I dislike fanatics that use sneaky tactics to “save people’s souls” (again, this is not directed at you).
Froylein,
Your reference to eating some chinese food or wearing some jewelry not making you a Taoist or a Muslim Arab as similar to me and people like me sharing traditions and recipes and such passed down to us from generation to generation of people in our families is a completely inaccurate comparison not to mention very insensitive. I’m not sure why people posting about their lifestyles with their faith and family histories makes you feel that you are being attacked and need to strike back.
From reading some of your posts it seems that the disagreement is based on the terms of judaism being used by “half-jews”. I don’t think that anyone who is not a full practicing jew is trying to claim that they are. From what I gather from this discussion, you and others don’t believe that we should be able to call ourselves “half-jews” (I don’t personally like that term either) and saying that we are ethnic jews seems to be offensive as well, so what do you think would be a more agreeable term or politically correct classification? Jewish background?
Sheol will do the trick, Tom. What clearly separates Judaism from Protestantism though, and brings it way closer to Catholicism, is the Protestant notion of sola scriptura, which does not take the oral tradition into account that inevitably came into existence between the lifetime of IHS and the writing of the gospels. There are many more differences between Judaism and Protestantism, but my pizza’s almost done, but in a nutshell: sooner will Rome reconcile with the Protestant denominations than traditional Judaism forego its beliefs for the sake of a cult-like, watered down unitarianism.
One respect in which Judaism resembles Protestantism is an absence of an ultimate authority whose writ runs across the entire spectrum of observance. So, debates over this and other issues between liberal diaspora Jews and more traditionally-minded ones can’t be resolved, can they– unless one side or the other disappears or quits the field altogether. To judge by this and other Jewlicious threads, it’ll be a cold day in Gahenna before that happens.
Tom, moreover, decidedly (Protestant) Christian theology is sold off as Jewish theology. I’ve watched this thread for a while, and couldn’t help but wonder why people would return to an old post to say what’s been said numerous times before – other than to spew accusations at traditional Jews and traditional Judaism (traditional as in Conservative, Orthodox, MO, and Ultra-Orthodox and any nuance of observance in between), at that accusing them of keeping (!) their faith. You know I think that lineage is a critical issue as there have been no reliable birth and death records for the Western hemisphere (none for other parts of the world) prior to the Council of Trient plus a lot of people are determined Jewish in the USA going by their lastnames, which, as law had it till the 1970s here, was passed on from the father plus Roma and Sinti lastnames that as well may sound like “typically Jewish” lastnames plus the ban on marriage of non-first borns well into the 18th century CE, which left all other children be born out of wedlock plus the biblical instances of intermarriage etc. But I also have to accept that Judaism isn’t based on the Torah alone, but – just like Catholicism – is based on the scriptures, the tradition (“Oral Torah”, which somewhat manifested itself in the Talmud) and the teachings. Just because I eat Chinese food every now and then doesn’t make me a Taoist or Confucianist. Just because I occasionally wear large chandelier earrings doesn’t make me a Muslim Arab. Just as spinning the dreidel on Chanukka won’t turn a person into a Jew. Protestant pseudo-universalism is out of place here.
I think everyone here is or should be concerned about the future of the Jewish people.
According to simple to remember, http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm
There are 13.3 million Jews and worldwide growth is close to 0%. Projections are in the next 2 generations US Jewish population will decline to 3.8m and the # in Israel will increase to 10M. By 2020 the world’s largest Jewish community will be in Israel and the Diaspora will continue to shrink.
What does this mean for the future?
Will the Jewish population become more Orthodox and produce a “leaner meaner” Judaism as some suggest? Or will the “half Jews” somehow in some way save the Diaspora Jews from shrinking?
The statistics on simple to remember also state that a recent survey shows that a high number of Jews do not believe in G-d. What does that mean?
It is interesting and scary to ponder.
It probably serves to prove froylein’s point, but Robin’s tone and approach resonates very strongly with this Christian. She blows our cover when she rightly points out how we got most (well, almost all) of our faith from Judaism.
Rules may exist, but our relationships with God and our faith communities wax and wane– they unfold over time, at any rate. “If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.” How best to address this reality of being human? Whatever the rules, a welcoming, understanding approach makes a lot of sense. Maybe that’s off-base, but don’t blame me– blame that Jewish guy who lived about 2000 years ago.
Jennifer, Reform does not tell you who you are, which is one of the biggest gaps between Reform on one hand and Conservadox on the other hand. Whether you like it or not, Judaism does have rules it bases affiliation on, those rules are an integral part of traditional Jewish belieffs. Whether you adhere to those beliefs or whatnot is your decision, but don’t expect others to consider you Jewish based on disbelief. They may be old-fashioned to you, but from a religious point of view they are right as the pillars of Judaism are scriptures, tradition and teaching.
Robin, your, Jennifer or my subjective feelings on the issue cannot and won’t replace religious doctrine observant Jews adhere to. And yes indeed, if somebody wants to be a member of a group and be considered such, I can expect that person to actively get involved in that group – just as democratic states expect their citizens to not only learn about the principles of democracy, but also to read the news daily, go to elections and ideally get into politics themselves.
Robin, also, what you’d like to call a modern myth re: heated discussions in Jewish discourse, simply put: it’s not a myth. Why you declare this is beyond me other than to prove a uniformity that has never existed. If you look into post-Temple commentaries on the Torah as well as into gemarah, you’ll easily see how adamantly the rabbis of those ages defended their positions. Also, I’m European with a pretty good take on European Jewish history (as well as Christian theology thanks to my studies), and nowhere in my studies as well as in feedback on my teaching on Medieval Jewry have I ever encountered a position that claimed that heated discussions were not a part of Jewish discourse. They’re a fact. Also sorry to break this to you, but hospitality towards Jews is one thing, but hospitality towards someone religious Judaism does not consider a Jew is another thing. At that, while you yourself may feel different, religious Judaism would not consider you an authority on religion either just as little as they would consider a Reform rabbi an authority on religion. Religions aren’t about feel-good-at-all-times; ask any observant Catholic, and you’ll see what I mean.
Dear Froylein: I’d been ducking out on Shavuos this year — got a huge workload — and now I’ve ended up giving a Shavuos sermonette — sorry for the length of the post! 🙂
Thanks for the dialogue and helping me think through some very inchoate thoughts on outreach.
Many blessings,
Robin
Dear Jennifer, Tom, and Froylein:
Jennifer, please don’t forget to contact the Half-Jewish Network — we welcome both your Jewish and your Mexican “halves.”
I am very sorry to hear that you get flack from the Mexicans for not being Mexican “enough,” in addition to getting flack from the Jews for not being Jewish “enough.”
I can’t do anything about the Mexicans, but we at the Half-Jewish Network are working on doing something about Judaism, if you would like to contact us — that would be at least “half” of your problem out of the way 🙂
Tom, thank you for explaining — I wasn’t quite sure what your poem was saying — my Spanish exists, but is sketchy 🙂
Now, Froylein — I certainly do follow this interesting thread on a regular basis — how could I resist? 🙂
Jennifer is not complaining because she hasn’t been “the princess of the ball” — far from it.
She has been repeatedly treated very badly, as she shared in her post, and she additionally, if I read it correctly, felt that reading this entire thread made her feel worse, and she was reacting to that — and I’m sure she doesn’t feel “heard” now.
And with regard to your comment that “heated discussions have always been typical of discourse in Judaism . . . “Let’s hug and be brothers and sisters at any rateâ€, is a Christian ideal.”
That is a major historical myth widespread among many modern Jews. That is why the Jewish Outreach Institute has begun the welcoming campaign I cited above, to bring us back to our tradtional welcoming roots.
Traditonal Judaism, far from sanctioning the kind of the hostility or neglect or rebuke or criticism shown to newcomers in many modern Jewish settings, both observant and liberal, vigorously opposes it.
Hospitality and courtesy to other Jews is a cardinal virtue in the Talmud, Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) and mussar (self-improvement) texts.
Jewish figures who reached out to other Jews and non-Jews, even ones they were at war with or in serious ideological disagreement with are generally praised in traditional Jewish literature.
The Christians got their ideas of brotherly love and welcome from the rabbinic Jewish civilization out of which they grew.
Or as Rabbi Hillel said, “What is hateful to yourself, do not to your fellow man.”
You will recall that his colleague, R. Shammai, is repeatedly referred to in a negative manner for his harsh treatment of both Jews and non-Jews, and R. Hillel was praised for his patience and warmth, even with Jewish and non-Jewish questioners who appeared hostile or to be deliberately baiting him.
Or, in the words of Pirke Avos, which the observant are studying at this time of year, “Be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving your fellow creatures, and drawing them near to Torah.”
The question with Jennifer and people like her is: are our words drawing her nearer to Torah, or driving her further away?
Now where did the idea that Jews are basically a “Fight Club” and that is a good thing originate?
We have certainly always been a contentious people — but the true era of chillly treatment of newcomers — when we weren’t just ignoring them or criticizing them — is directly traceable to our emergence from ghettos and entry into modern society in America and Europe.
For a lengthy analysis of what happened to the millions of Orthodox Jews arriving from Eastern Europe to America in the early 20th century, I recommend “World of Our Fathers” by Irving Howe, which analyzes, among many other topics, how our communal bonds were ripped apart.
But harsh treatment of wounded souls is not Torah. And it is something that not just the Jewish Outreach Institute, or the Half-Jewish Network, but every Jewish person in this era must take to heart.
The question for us this Shavuos is: will we share the Torah from Sinai as disciples of Aaron and Rabbi Hillel — or will we withhold it from people as did Rabbi Shammai?
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Thanks Tom, it did make me feel a little better. 😉
(Although I get plenty of slack from Mexicans about not being Mexican enough either) – but that’s a discussion for another board.
The lyrics are from the song ‘Viva Mexico’, by Pedro Galindo. It’s an unofficial national anthem, often sung on Mexico’s Independence Day (September 16, not Cinqo De Maio as we gringoes often assume).
Thought I’d make Jennifer feel better.
(When Mexicans use the term ‘America’, they’re not necessarily referring to los Estados Unidos; in their usage, America means everyplace from Nome to Tierra del Fuego.)
Froylein,
You’ve completely missed the point of my post. The point being that “half-jews” should not be told by orthodox jews, conservative jews, reformed jews or any other that they must deny their jewish heritage because they are not religious in faith. It’s the equivalent of saying “I am half-mexican, or italian, or irish or whatever and the other half NOTHING because some jews don’t accept me.” I will not refute my jewish upbringing because someone tells me I should.
Furthermore, I find it interesting that many of you posting think that children from interfaith marriages should have decided on their own and taken it on their own merit to seek out jewish relgious instruction for conversion when most of their parents are not religious at all and don’t encourage their children to seek out faith and in some cases, in fact, discourage it. This brings me to the point I was trying to make as to why it would be beneficial that when these children, teenagers, young adults do attend jewish religious or cultural events that they be welcomed and conversed with. Perhaps even given some background to the customs being celebrated.
I did have some contact with a reformed temple as a child and my family was still treated by some members as being strange and different. It was not a particularly welcome feeling. The problem is not just with the acceptance only of matrilineal jewish descendance but with children of interfaith couples in general.
My comment on financial gains was not in the context of benefit for any single person but rather the raising of funds by a charitable organization to help people in need and fund community events that can benefit the community. Isn’t that what is done with donations? I’m sorry you took it that way.
It’s easy to tell someone who they should be when you’ve never walked in their shoes, so to speak. (referring to the binary references made on this post) I don’t mean to be presumptious, Froylein, I am purely speaking to my experiences and others like me who I know to have had similar experiences. I truly do not mean to offend you or anyone else who may be reading these discussions. I simply hoped to add to the viewpoint of other “half-jews” so that we may be better understood.
Robin, if you follow this blog on a more regular basis, you certainly know I’m a decently mannered person that has more than once spoken in favour of intermarriage. But, and that is the catch, if somebody comments on here complaining she hasn’t been the princess of the ball, figuratively speaking, at that showing utter disrespect and a total lack of understanding for what the majority of observant Jews believes to be right, I cannot bring myself to believe that that person wanted to connect in any way. Everybody’s been hurt at some point, but that is not a carte blanche to start off being offensive. Also, like it or not, heated discussions have always been typical of discourse in Judaism to the extent that noisy groups of people have figurativly been likened to “Jewish shuls”. “Let’s hug and be brothers and sisters at any rate”, is a Christian ideal. I welcome strangers that ring at my door, not ones that try to kick it in because they believe they’ve got the right to do so.
Dear Jennifer, Froylein, and Tom:
Jennifer, I hope you will visit the website of the Half-Jewish Network. We will gladly accept you as a Jew, and have many cultural and spiritual resources available.
Please do not let the comments of some Jews persuade you to leave Judaism. There are many Jews and Jewish-identified adult children of intermarriage who would be happy to welcome you.
I can be reached at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
Froylein, you complain about Jennifer’s tone — but is yours very warm?
Many people with arriving with anger have been deeply hurt, many times. Isn’t it our duty as Jews to welcome them to our communities and show them positive ways of being Jewish?
Here is some advice from the Jewish Outreach Institute for Jews on welcoming:
“When I answer the phone for my orgnaization, I am an Ambassador for the Jewish Community. That’s why I will always keep these three points in mind: (1) this might be the first time the caller is contacting a Jewish institution in years, or ever, so my tone represents the entire community; (2) if I can’t help the caller myself, I’m going to find the person who can; and (3) this could be our one and only opportunity to connect this newcomer to the meanings and values of our Jewish community.”
For more information about welcoming people to the Jewish community, JOI’s website is:
http://www.joi.org
Tom: my Spanish is very shaky, but I gather you have posted a poem about U.S. citizens who are also dual citizens of Mexico, and have two Mexican parents who have immigrated to the U.S.?
On behalf of the adult children of intermarriage, thank you very much for your support.
But I should caution you — and you would have no way of knowing this — that most descendants of intermarried Jews don’t really identify as “dual citizens” for two reasons:
1. we are tied to our intermarried parents or grandparents by our DNA — our duality is a part of our very biology — that is not quite the same as being a citizen of two countries with one biological ethnicity; and
2. the only people who describe us as dual citizens within the Jewish community are usually Jews trying to force us to leave by claiming that Judaism has the right to exclude us because “countries can make dual nationals take one passport, and exclude people who they don’t want.”
But we appreciate your support of us 🙂
To learn more about the adult children of intermarried Jews, please visit:
http://www.half-jewish.net
If you are an adult descendant of intermarriage, please contact me at:
[email protected]
and I will send you information about the Half-Jewish Network.
May we all be blessed with better understanding of each other’s pain.
Cordially,
Robin
“Soy puro mexicano,
nacido en este suelo,
en esta hermosa tierra
que es mi linda nación.
“Mi México querido.
que linda es mi bandera,
si alguno la mancilla
le parto el corazón.
“Viva México, viva América,
oh suelo bendito de Dios;
viva México,
viva América,
mi sangre por ti daré yo.”
Jennifer, your email address tells me you’ve got a typically Irish last name; I take it it’s your spouse’s.
While I agree with you on that the Jewish community as a whole should not be rejecting children born to interfaith couples, no matter what the lineage may be (I am one of the strongest advocates of full acceptance of the paternal line on this blog), the somewhat offensively presumptuous tone of your comment conveys that you apparently cannot get a few things yourself, namely that your concept of Judaism is strongly a cultural one as in the Slavic (light, going by your description) adaption of Judaism you’ve picked up from your grandparents, not an ethnic one, in case of which you’d have emphasized your genetic bond with MOTs. Reform Judaism acknowledges the paternal line, so for a start, you could have looked into that movement had your interest in Judaism been serious. More so, had your interest in Jewish Orthodoxy been serious, you’d have come to understand not only that but why more observant trends not only mandatorily base adherence to Judaism on matrilineal descendance but also discourage non-Jews (according to their rules) from conversion to Judaism in line with Jewish views on eschatology. Judaism is not a country club, yet it has got membership rules, and I can understand why Conservative and Orthodox Judaism expect way more from convertees than casual country club-style affiliation. I find your last line particularly irksome, your subjective concept of justice does not constitute as this old faith’s objective concept of law preserved through tradition and doctrine, so to claim things “would be in the greatest interest of the faith to be rectified” is as arrogant as it gets. Who are you to tell the majority of the world’s religious Jews what to believe in? Feel free to start your own Jewish movement; it’s possible if seriously desired, but don’t expect a Jew that tries to keep as many mitzvot as possible to consider you “right”. Apropos the donations, had Judaism only been about money, most European Jews would have voluntarily converted to keep their property back in the day.
it seems as though so many of you can not comprehend the idea of judaism as an ethnicity. Perhaps that is because you don’t have familial link to another ethnicity to relate it to. Most jewish families – religious or not – continue to celebrate the jewish holidays in one form or another and continue to cook jewish food and use yiddish words and terms and play jewish games and sing jewish songs, and then they pass these customs down from generation to generation. This is much like many other cultures. My jewish grandparents did these things with my brother and I, even though our mother is Mexican. They did not share with us Russian culture or Polish culture, even though that is where their parents hailed from. Their culture was judaism. Therefore, though we are not practicing jews, we consider ourselves jews because that is the rich tapestry from which we were raised, much in the same way that we consider ourselves Mexican.
While so many of you refute our legitimacy to being jewish, it should be known that those of us “half-jews” still face full anti-semitism.
One other thing – Perhaps if we hadn’t been treated as such outsiders by other jews at temple and other such gatherings, we may have been open to becoming religious jews as well. I suspect this is the reason for the high percentage of non-retention/conversion of half-jews into the jewish religion. This is something that would be in the greatest interest of the faith to be rectified – greater population, greater representation, greater collection of donations.
Dear Rachel and Amber:
Rachel: I am very pleased to hear that you are going to look at the Humanistic Judaism website. Many secular/humanistic Jews are not aware that they have an organizational “home.”
One of my board members for the Half-Jewish Network was very active in her Humanistic Jewish shul as a young person, and it is her childhood atheist/agnostic rabbi who has agreed to serve as a contact for the Half-Jewish Network.
If you feel like it, please contact me at:
[email protected]
or visit: http://www.half-jewish.net
and we can add you to the free, sporadic Half-Jewish Network email newsletter. We have a number of young patrilineals like yourself on our message board.
Rachel and Amber: thank you for your kind congratulations on my admission to a rabbinic program. Amber, it is especially kind of you to say that I will be a wonderful rabbi — I will certainly try.
Amber, since I have your email address, I will write you privately about the rabbinic program I am enrolling in. I opted to go to one of the independent rabbinical programs, instead of a denominational one, for reasons I will explain when I email you.
Thank you to you both for the encouragement! Many blessings on your spiritual journeys!
Cordially,
Robin
Congratulations Robin! You have been a wonderful advocate for patrilineals, and I’m sure you’ll make a wonderful Rabbi 🙂 Which sect of Judasim?
Thanks a lot for your message. I’m going to look into Humanistic Judaism–my dad’s always called himself a secular/humanistic Jew, but I had no idea that that organization actually existed! Thanks again. And congratulations on your acceptance to the rabbinic program!
Dear Rachel:
Several thoughts for you:
1. If you consider yourself to be a cultural Jew, and do not believe in a higher power, you may wish to contact the Society for Humanistic Judaism at:
http://www.shj.org
They are a worldwide group of Jews who are committed to Jewish culture and history and consider themselves to be atheistic/agnostic. They recognize adult children of Jewish fathers and Christian mothers as Jews, if the adult children wish to identify as Jews.
If you would like to talk with one of their rabbis (yes, there are atheist/agnostic rabbis), we have a contact in their movement who is friendly to adult children of intermarriage, and he would be happy to answer any questions that you may have about them.
Please contact me privately at: [email protected] if you would like to be put directly in touch with this rabbi. Alternatively, you can visit the Jewish Humanistic website, and get a good idea of what they believe, and see if there is a Jewish Humanistic group near where you live. They have active youth groups which would be delighted to welcome you.
2. Not every person “born of a Jewish mother” regards you as not Jewish.
For example, there are many matrilineal adult childen of intermarriage, like myself, who mostly have Jewish mothers and Christian fathers, who regard you as a Jew, and as our (symbolic) sibling and friend.
If you visit our Half-Jewish Network website and look at our message board, you will see that we have many patrilineal cultural Jews like yourself with feelings identical to yours. You would receive the same warm welcome from them that we have extended to many patrilineal Jews:
http://www.half-jewish.net
There is also a new organization for patrilineal Jews that is still in the planning stages, but would gladly welcome you, Emunah Avot.
They can be reached at:
http://www.emunahavot.com
And there are many Jews with two Jewish parents in more liberal Jewish groups who would accept you as a Jew. Keep in mind that in America, the Orthodox are estimated to be only 10% of all American Jews.
Even throwing in some Conservadox Jews — why let what is likely less than 20% of all American Jews push you out of Judaism?
Also, remember that not all Orthodox and Conservative Jews toe the party line about patrilineal adult children of intermarriage — I have met some who are supportive of us; they just can’t make themselves heard yet within their denominations.
So try to view each Orthodox person on a case-by-case basis; I have often found unexpected support pockets among them.
Within the Conservative movement, surveys consistently show that the majority of their laity wants to recognize people like you as Jews — it is their rabbinate which is opposing this.
If this follows the trend of other changes within the Conservative movement — typically their laity endorses a change, and their rabbinate adopts it later — it means that within 20-30 years, the Conservative movement will also recognize patrilineal Jews.
3. Consider something else — you’re at an age where rejection is deeply wounding. It is an age where one profoundly yearns to belong and be welcome, as one gradually forges an adult life and identity.
So it is no fun approaching members of one’s affinity group and being pushed away by some of them.
But you may wish to consider that what you are going through with regard to some Jews rejecting you as a Jew is a sort of spiritual test — traditional Judaism calls it a “nisayon” — and I believe that this concept can be translated into an agnostic/atheist Jewish context —
You’re being asked to develop spiritual or psychological “muscle” — to push back against the cruel rejections. To draw a line in the sand, and say: “This is my Judaism too. I’m not going anywhere.”
I will share with you that I myself for years thought many times of just quitting Judaism. I have a Jewish Orthodox mother, and it has not gotten me much street cred — the Jews who want to reject adult children of intermarriage will always find additional reasons for rejecting us —
I have been stigmatized for “not looking Jewish” (I look like my Christian dad), not being brought up Jewish (I was raised in my dad’s faith and switched over to Judaism as an adult), for having “wrong” views on Israel (I favor a peace treaty with the Palestinians), and even for doing outreach to other adult children of intermarriage (a “real” Jew would allegedly choose only people with two Jewish parents for friends. )
After all, I thought, why not return to the Episcopalians of my childhood — that friendly, welcoming, liberal group, who would never refuse a person admission because one parent wasn’t Christian —
but I always thought how disappointed my deceased Jewish grandmother and mother would be — and I am a believing Jew, so how could I go back to church? — and I also thought — why let the people sponsoring what one of my Jewish outreach colleagues calls “a leaner, meaner Judaism” win?
So I have applied to a rabbinic program — I was notified that I was accepted earlier this week. I am doing this partly so I can be more effective in reaching out to many people like ourselves.
So Rachel, you are guaranteed at least one rabbi who definitely accepts you as a Jew — just give me a few years to get ordained 🙂
Take your nisayon, and use it to strengthen yourself. Just as people training for an athletic event — or prepping for a college exam — or preparing for some kind of martial arts program — or even many of our very stubborn Jewish ancestors, who firmly resisted being coerced into other faiths — all of those people take tests of their commitment and use the tests to strengthen themselves.
And on a lighter note, please contact the Society for Humanistic Judaism — they have a lot of young people who are patrilineals like yourself — you deserve a Jewish environment where you are accepted completely as yourself and have some fun.
Please also keep in mind also that we will be the majority of American Jews between the years 2030 and 2040 — it may seem far away, but it will happen within our lifetimes. We are already 45% of all Jewish-identified American college students.
Once we become the majority, most of the flak against us will disappear. There is power in numbers.
Many blessings on your journey,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Rachel, you could simply join the Reform branch of Judaism where you’ll be treated as Jewish in every way. They are not only a larger movement than the Orthodox movements in this country, but they are the fastest growing movement, in large part because of their openness to patrilinial descent, to inter-faith couples and to converts who don’t wish to practice as Orthodox Jews.
Ignore the angry naysayers. It’s what’s in your heart that matters.
Jewish Mother keeps talking about Orthodox conversion like it’s a cure-all for patrilinear Jews. It’s not. Many Jews have no interest in Orthodoxy, and besides, isn’t conversion somewhat invalid/pointless if 1) one does not intend to actually follow what one is converting to, and 2) one is ALREADY part of the group he/she is supposedly joining?
If the Orthodox conversion is such a great learning experience, why not make all Jews do it? Because you and I know that while the Orthodox branch may be the most religious, its legitimacy is not exclusive.
My dad is a secular Jew. He was the stay-at-home parent and shaped my beliefs and world-view far more than my Lutheran mother (who was almost never home) did. I connected with the ethnic/cultural identity and I felt like I was a Jew until people like you insisted that I wasn’t.
And you know what? After spending over half my 17 years trying to fight the disapproval of every person with the luck of being born to a Jewish mother, I’ve given up. I’m sick of having to defend myself. I don’t feel like I’m Jew anymore. NOT because of anything in my identity, but because I can’t afford to keep identifying with people intent on excluding me. There you go. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. I am no longer deluded enough to believe I am one of my father’s people.
I don’t believe in any higher power so it would be stupid to convert. Besides I don’t want to deal with the discrimination.
Do not shove your branch of Judaism down my throat. Do not offer me any latkes.
Dear Marv:
I am glad that you enjoyed the Half-Jewish Network website, and thank you for your kind words about my work.
If you have not already done so, please feel free to re-visit my website, and leave an email address, so I can send you our email newsletter.
You definitely do not have to believe in G-d to join us 🙂
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
JM, :0)
aka Gershom, you nic says it all. You really seem to know your stuff as a Jew. You don’t sound particularly Reform. You are a strong candidate for asking, well, why NOT do an Orthodox conversion? You are used to being feisty. You are no stranger to being different. Sounds like you could handle the resulting flak better than the nice peaceable full-bloods, who in their complacency, have never had to worry about any of this.
I hope we get you!
Tom Morrissey, Mormonism is a separate religion. Reform Judaism is emphatic that it is not a separate religion.
Everybody wants it easy……… we have been led to believe that the hard stuff is in the office, and religion should make us feel better, and if it growls and constrains it is a bad puppy. Well, sometimes that can be true. Not always. It is a judgment call. No, you can’t check your native decency or common sense at the door. (Don’t get me started on Purim problems.)
It’s like, rather than sweat, bleed and writhe, why not just marry her already, and be done with it?
Jewish Mother, thanks for understanding where I (and many like me) are coming from.
In terms of “Is it so fine with the patrilinear’s Mom’s to have their children abandon Christianity?”, I’d say the following: who understands the Torah will gently explain the specific things where Christianity is anathema to Torah. Things like:
a) People not having to follow the Law (Sinai Law for Jews, Noachide Laws for Gentiles) because asking for Grace has now replaced one’s need to follow the Law.
b) Describing God in terms of a trinity or a human representation (which goes against the Shema and many injunctions e.g. “because you saw no form at Horeb….” against describing God as anything other than “Echad”).
c) Replacing salvation from Abba with salvation from someone else.
Most Christian Moms who have married a Jew will probably know that the 3 Christian things above are contradictory to Torah (especially since Christians include the Written Torah in their own scripture !!). It is our duty to educate Christians to abandon such beliefs that contradict the Torah.
Regarding “are we talking about ‘being’ a Jew or living as one”… I’d say two things:
a) Of course being a Jew means Doing the Law. What this discussion is about is “Do and Let Do” (for example Orthodox enabling and not hindering the ability of others who claim to be Jewish to follow the Law). In the old days Pharisees and Zaddukim and Essenes and even Samaritans co-existed (not so peacefully actually, but we know what happened when clashed: Israel as a whole got hurt). We should learn from that.
b) But i’ll also say that this discussion has to be about just the ‘being’ part. Your acceptance of Karaites, Samaritans, Reform, Reconstructionist, and ‘half-Jews’ as, let’s say “Israelite partners” if you don’t want to use the term “Jew”, should not be predicated on how well we’re doing our mitzvot. There are plenty of Jews (according to the Orthodox definition) who live is disdain for the Law and I won’t question their Jewishness. At the end of the day we’re talking about accepting the ‘being’ part. Let God be the judge on the ‘doing’ part.
So my question to you is: If I don’t do a Orthodox conversion, will you treat me like a Jew (even if you don’t call me a Jew, that’s fine, I understand the Talmud) and help me in doing my mitzvot?, or will you treat me like a Gentile and inhibit me from partaking in the benefits of Jacob. ??
Cheers,
akaGershom
Thanks Tom. You made me smile.
I like Jewish Mother’s better-safe-than-sorry approach. Isn’t there some peace of mind in knowing that we’ll all get a Mormon baptism?
I see your point – that this is a clash between two streams of Judaism, and you are on one side, and can’t depart from its views without being a traitor. And, you don’t want disagree with the first judge of “who is a Jew” in your life – your respected father.
Is it so fine with the patrilinears’ Moms to have their children abandon Christianity? As a Mom myself, I am on their side. Mom rules. Does that make me a feminist? Gloria Steinem, where are you? Help me out here.
I wish everybody luck, and just think we should think twice before doing this to people, no matter who looks good in the moonlight.
There many pathways to holiness!! But the Torah / Talmud / Chazal say what they say.
Are we talking about “being” a Jew, or living as one on a daily basis? Is it “be” or “do”? Is this philosophy class, or living life? Poof, you’re a Jew. Now what?
I wanted to comment on Jewish Mother’s post of Jan 8th.
>> … What is so terrible about undergoing orthodox conversion and settling the hash of this question forever? …
…Orthodoxy is the Clear Identity Rules Store. If you want clear identity rules, why not go where they have that? That is easier than forging your own nails or slaughtering your own steer. It has already been done for you.
Come on in. The water’s fine.
<<
Jewish Mother, your invitation to convert is heart-felt and sincere, and God bless you. However keep in mind that those of us non-matrilineal descendants of intermarried Jews who identify as Jews believe that we are already in the water with you (i.e. part of Israel). Furthermore, undergoing Orthodox conversion would be to betray our belief that matrilineality does not exclusively determine Jewishness.
By the same token I do not expect that Orthodox or Conservative should change the Talmud either. The exclusivity of matrilineality is your belief (thru interpretation of Written Torah or thru Oral Torah) and you are entitled to it of course.
Like Reform and Reconstructionist, those of us non-matrilineals who self identify as Jews have a broader definition of who can be a Jew according to God’s Teaching. It is a different understanding than Rabbinical Orthodoxy or Conservative.
The issue however, and perhaps a good part of the reason for this thread (and thousands of others like this) is that unless all of those who self identify as partakers of Jacob’s inheritance can come to the table and acknowledge each other’s claims, we will split Jacob’s house, just like we did 3000 years ago years ago and 2000 years ago too.
For me, you are a Jew. I don’t share some of your Rabbinical Orthodox beliefs, but I give you every bit of legitimacy here on earth. If one of us has wrongly interpreted the Written Torah, then God will pronounce on that. In the meantime, allowing each other to self-identify as “Jew” will only facilitate Tikun Olam and being a light to the nations. Do you think so ?
akaGershom
Robin,
Thank you for the informative and accepting post. The world needs more people like you. I read your link and the part on Islamic Jews really summed the whole thing up for me. How Muslims connsider the child a muslim and the Jews consider him or her a jew really epitomizes how I feel on the subject. I find it offensive for others to tell someone what religion they are. When I tell people that I have jewish heritage and they tell me I am a Jew becuase of matrilineal decent I get VERY offended. To say that i am a Jew based on religious laws that I do not believe in really makes no sense to me. If people who are halfies want to associate themselves with one of their religions that is fine by me. however I choose not to. I am neither Christian or Jew, I simply am. While that is esoteric and vague it sums up what I believe.
As to integrating into other societies, I would prefer that. I do not live for my ancestors, I live for myself and my family. \ From a historical standpoint most of the problems that have been had by the Jewish population have been due to the fact that Jews keep to themselves and try to keep themselves seperate from the larger society as a whole. This “elitism” in a sense leads to people on the outside having negative feelings towards that group. I see no great loss in the dissolution of Jewish culture. Things change, they evolve.
I wish you good luck and can appreciate your fervour for helping others out. Anyone that wishes to explore their heritage and spiritual identity should be able to do so as they choose without oppression from others. Those like myself who don’t believe in spirituality should be able to do so too.
Dear Marv:
On the question of whether you are a Jew, you may wish to visit “who is a Jew?” at:
http://www.half-jewish.net/whoisajew.html
which is an essay I wrote on how different Jewish groups would look at your half- Jewish identity.
It is somewhat more complicated than just having a Jewish mother or a Jewish father.
You would be very welcome in the Half-Jewish Network no matter how you chose to identify.
Our website is:
http://www.half-jewish.net
Please contact me there, and I will be happy to talk with you.
If you are interested in Jewish agnostic/atheist groups that will accept you as a Jewish or partially Jewish person, you may wish to contact the Society for Jewish Humanism at:
http://www.shj.org/
They treat adult children of intermarriage very courteously and would be happy to welcome you as a member.
Now with regard to “religion and not integrating into larger societies are the wrong paths” — I would gently suggest that blaming all bad things on “religion” disregards the large number of very progressive spiritual Jews, ranging from the Jewish Humanists to some of the Orthodox, many of whom are opposed to current Orthodox and Israeli policies on “who is a Jew.”
For example, those policies are being fought by the Association for the Protection of Mixed Families in Israel. You may find their website of interest:
http://www.mixedfamilies.rustreet.com/english/staff.php
Describing all religion as a “wrong path” is a somewhat sweeping generalization — I know that this thread must be totally exasperating for you, especially the postings invoking G-d as the backer for discrimination based on parentage —
but you would be equally upset if someone described all Jewish or partly-Jewish agnostics and atheists as being on a “wrong path.”
You may wish to consider spiritual Jews on a case-by-case basis as individuals, just as you yourself would wish to be considered as a good person and an agnostic on an individual basis.
While some of the born Jews on this thread have made very insensitive remarks, they do not represent all of Judaism or all of Orthodoxy.
And some of the comments posted by born Jews on this thread have been supportive of people like you and me — those posts are just less visible when one is very angry 🙂
Now with regard to the state of Israel — it is very easy for adult children of intermarriage to walk away from Israel. The Israelis do treat interfaith families very badly.
But many Israelis object to these policies against us, and if we abandon Israel, we abandon the thousands of adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage living there, an estimated 300,000 people like you and me.
And they need our help.
Israel will not become a more democratic or pluralistic society unless people like you and me help Israelis who are fighting to make Israel a better place.
You may want to visit the AMF of Israel’s website and perhaps offer to help them a little.
They are our sisters and brothers, and we need to help them fight Israeli discrimination against them. Anything we can do to help them also helps make Israel more democratic and pluralistic towards other minorities in Israel.
Now with regard to “integrating into larger societies” — I am not sure what you mean by “integrating into larger societies” is good for the Jews.
If you mean the way we live in America — as a distinct group, but in (relative) harmony and peace with other groups — that has been a positive path here.
But in other countries, Jews “integrating” into their societies has resulted in the peaceful disappearance of entire Jewish communties and the Jewish culture, with everyone converting to other faith-based cultures, or, as in Germany, a violent and brutal backlash, culminating in the Holocaust.
So integration is not always a desirable path for Jews, if they have to give up their spiritual and secular cultures. Every minority culture is precious and valuable.
But this is just my reasoning, and you are fully entitled to disagree with me.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
I think it is really strange to have other people try to tell you who you are. My mother was an athiest but her parents were jews. She married a fellow athiest of Eastern Orthodox decent. Does that make me a jew? I am an agnostic, I find the concept of humansn knowing what god is or isn’t is fairly conceited. I also do not support Israel in anyway and feel that its’ creation was a major mistake. However I would be a Jew yet practising patrilineal Jews who follow Jewish law would not. Very closed minded and another reminder to me that religion and not integrating into larger societies are the wrong paths.
Dear Michelle:
I am delighted to hear that you found 100% acceptance from your Orthodox community in Britain.
It warms my heart and gives me hope.
I trust that you will find the same acceptance with a Reform community.
Regarding Israel — Israel is no longer totally secular. They have a growing Orthodox minority, both religious-national and ultra-Orthodox (haredim).
There is an elaborate web of legal and social discrimination against adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage in Israel — unfortunately, mostly sponsored by the Israeli Orthodox.
Even more unfortunate, Israeli seculars are influenced by these discriminatory attitudes.
Recently, Orthodox members of the Olmert government tried to get adult patrilineal grandchildren removed from the Law of Return.
The Olmert government has also been trying to deport the non-Jewish spouses of Israeli Jewish citizens if the Israeli Jewish citizen dies before the non-Jewish spouse has gotten their Israeli citizenship papers completely approved.
Deporting elderly widows and widowers, who are long-term residents of Israel, is pretty despicable.
Also, if you have a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father in Israel, and your non-Jewish dad’s immigration status is questionable, the Israeli government will try to deport your dad, even if he legally married to your mom, you’re being raised as a Jew, etc.
This is something that would affect matrilineal Jews, but not people with two Jewish parents.
For more information, you may wish to visit my website at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
and click on the link “who is a Jew?” and also the “Israel” link for the latest updates.
Also, if you contact me, I will be happy to put you on the email newsletter list of the Half-Jewish Network.
To verify what I have said, you may wish to visit the English language online versions of the Israeli newspapers — for balance, look at Haaretz (leftist), Jerusalem Post (rightist), and Yedidot Aharont (sometimes left, sometimes right).
All three papers have even worse stories about Israeli treatment of interfaith families.
There is an organization in Israel, the Association for the Protection of Mixed Families, whose job is to fight discrimination against interfaith families.
If you go to the Half-Jewish Network website, and click on the link “AMF of Israel,” you will see a description of AMF’s work.
It saddens me to see Israel behave like this, but I am hopeful that the future is on the side of decency.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Dear Robin, thank you for your enlightening post. I suppose within Orthodoxy, it does matter that you don’t have a Jewish father and ideally Jewish surname. I’m just going from my own acceptance into an Orthodox community in Britain (not sure I’m going to stay with it though, Reform sits better with me) with a non-Jewish father. There was totally no deal about the father, no questions asked. This is why I think many jewish girls don’t care if they marry out. But I wasn’t aware of the situation in Israel. But then isn’t Israel totally secular anyway?!
Dear Justin, aka Gershom and other posters:
Justin, I am pleased that you have enjoyed my most recent posting.
akaGershom, the Half-Jewish Network definitely accepts you as a Jew. I estimate that about one-third of our membership are adult grandchildren of intermarriage. Many are practicing Jews.
Michelle, regarding your question as to the discrimination against matrilineal Jews, such as myself.
I’m not relying on just my own experience. I have interviewed literally dozens of adult children of intermarriage with Jewish mother and non-Jewish fathers.
Most recently, I heard from a young man with a Jewish mother and a Christian father, who opted as an adult to join Orthodox Judaism, and is now a fully-observant Orthodox Jew.
He loves Orthodoxy and is now seeking a single Orthodox Jewish woman to marry.
He reports that he was advised by various authorities in the shidduch (matchmaking) scene to use his mother’s Jewish maiden name on dates, rather than his Christian father’s surname, as apparently having a Christian father will damage his chances to find an Orthodox Jewish wife.
In other words, he is damaged goods within the Orthodox world because of his parentage.
Despite much lip service to the idea that matrilineal Jews are “real” Jews, in actual practice we are often treated by Jewish communities in a discriminatory manner.
An Israeli newspaper recently published a column by an Orthodox rabbi urging a young Israeli Jewish woman not to marry a Catholic man with whom she is in love, even though she plans to raise the children as Jews.
The rabbi told her that her children would be halachically Jewish, but that Israeli society is extremely discriminatory against people with non-Jewish fathers, even if they are raised as Jews, and why would she want her future children to be second-class citizens?
Now if matrilineal Jews were “real” Jews I shouldn’t be seeing or hearing such things.
Even worse, matrilineal Jews are often encouraged to minimize or deny their poor treatment within the Jewish community and look down on patrilineal Jews.
The Half-Jewish Network encourages matrilineal Jews and patrilneal Jews to recognize that they are, symbolically, sisters and brothers, with the profound commonality of sharing one Jewish parent and one parent of another faith, and that we have much to share with each other.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
The situation here is similar to Israel with a large percentage of allegedly Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union, a large part of which (estimates say two-thirds) are neither halachically Jewish nor “Jewish” in the sense of they’ve been practising the faith. To a Jewish community of 16,000 prior to the immigration wave, an addition of 60,000 people has posed quite a few problems. My students from the former Soviet Union told me that all it takes to bribe some authority over there to issue a passport that claims you’re of “Jewish” nationality is a large piece of ham, two bottles of vodka, or a nice bouquet of flowers.
It certainly did way back when Ezra Hanavi implemented Sifrei Yuchsin upon the return to Israel from the Babylonian exile.
Would it really change anything though?
This problem is real and it has a real solution, although a demanding one. What is so terrible about undergoing orthodox conversion and settling the hash of this question forever? Orthodox conversion is accepted everywhere. I know, Israel has stopped accepting, but still. It certainly flies in the US. In fact, once you have passed the test in the US, it should not be hard to re-pass in Israel, like getting a medical or driver’s license in another country. You have the skill. You just have to satisfy their examiners, because it’s their country.
People labor mightily to become lawyers, dental hygienists, social workers and so forth, so why not invest some time and brains in this? Yes, orthodox conversion requires study, bother, time, and money. So? You learn amazingly interesting material, deep stuff. It’s life enriching. Ah, but it doesn’t lead to a salary, like being a dentist. It does lead to a good family life, or anyway it can help with that.
But there is another problem:
Of course, then you have to live orthodox. Yes, that makes you weird to your family and friends. You will have a spouse, table, children, identity, sense of purpose, but you will be weird to your family and friends, which hurts.
So, what kind of Jewish do people want to be?
The big thing is they want to know who they are.
They are not finding it in non-orthodox Judaism, or this thread would not exist, the unhappiness would not exist, and Robin’s organization would not exist. Orthodoxy is not magic, people are still people, and have defects, within it. But it addresses this squarely, and clearly, and offers definitive answers. After that, your character is what it is, and the innermost issues about that are clothed in mists.
If you want nails, you go to the hardware store, not the butcher shop. If you want a steak, you go to the butcher shop, not the hardware store. Orthodoxy is the Clear Identity Rules Store. If you want clear identity rules, why not go where they have that? That is easier than forging your own nails or slaughtering your own steer. It has already been done for you.
Come on in. The water’s fine.
why don’t you convert? all we’re asking is to be recognized as no different than the rest of our family. just saying convert helps no one.
let me tell you about 2 people. Finn (irish last name) and Daniel (jewish last name). these are real people. finn’s only jews grandparent was his mother’s mother. his dad s catholic. Finn goes to midnight mass and celebrates easter with his family, most of whom are catholic. his mother was raised in a secular environment.
Daniel’s grandparents are all jewish except for his maternal grandmother. he has never been to a church and is raised jewish. he and his family consider him jewish. he believes in G-d. Finn is an agnostic.
Proforma conversions no, but the idea of reviving Sifrei Yuchsin has come up more than once over the last few decades and not just from the I-Am-More-Machmir-Than-You side of the mechitzah.
I didn’t say I did, but people often are perceived as Jewish based on their last names, which, due to Central European laws till after WW2, were passed on from the father’s side. In addition, many Roma also adopted family names when European Jews were forced to as well that likened that Jews chose. Also, many immigrants to the US fleeing the Nazis usually had to leave most possessions including documents behind. If you really wanted to be strict about the application of halacha, I suppose you’d have to demand pro-forma conversions just to be on the safe side. Not that I would.
Do you adopt Nazi definitions, guidelines and methodologies as your rules? No? Neither does the Torah Judaism. What an amazing revelation!
So did the Nazis and many an immigrant basing their Jewishness on their last name, obtained from the paternal line. 😉
Um, Michelle, Robin was just defining the terminology she’s using and is speaking about prejudicial experiences she claims occur with Jewish children whose fathers aren’t Jewish. All very reasonable.
Other than that, Robin would like to pretend that children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers are Jewish.
Robin’s comment that the child of a jewish mother and a non-jewish father is a ‘matrilineal’ is preposterous – that child is a jew, 100%. It does not matter who the father is, as long as the mother is jewish. And such children are not ‘second class’ Jews either!
Hello, i was reading the post from Amber from Nov 21, which said:
>>
I have read elsewhere that the Rabbis interpret “your son†to be the Israelite’s “grandson;†he, the child of intermarriage, turned away from G-d. In other words, the son of a Gentile woman and a Jewish man is not Jewish. But isn’t this a fairly loose, possibly convenient interpretation? I do not claim to be a biblical scholar (though I have done my research), but there is something about the Talmudic stance on this passage that just doesn’t make sense to me.
<<
I am aware of two quotes in the Pentateuch that make statements (implicit or explicit) about children of intermarriage. The first is the well known Deuteronomy 7:3-4. The second is Leviticus 24:10-16. What is also interesting is that, unlike Rabbinical Jews, the Karaite Jews (not the descendants of the Turkic Kazhars, but Jews that accept only the written Torah) reach a different interpretation from these two passages, namely that the Jewish line flows thru the father. There is a somewhat detailed analysis on this which i found on half-jewish.org/who_is_born_a_jew.html . The Karaites’ web site is also useful (http://www.karaite-korner.org) on the patrilineal point of view.
I don’t know about the other posters here, but when I read these two passages the only thing that’s clear is that it is NOT clear that there is any indication in the Pentateuch on the status of children of intermarriage.
My Jewish ancestry is from two of my grandparents: mother’s father, and my father’s mother; which means i don’t fit either the Orthodox Rabbinical or the Karaite interpretation of being a born Jew.
However, I AM A JEW.
Some will say “According to whom??” and “Sorry, but you’re not”. Well, according to Rabbinical / Talmudic Halaka, I’m certainly not, so I’ll be the first to agree that I am not a Rabbinical Jew. Neither can I be a Karaite Jew (as I’m not patrilineal). However, given what I read in the Torah, I certainly don’t see with any clarity that Judaism flows exclusively thru the mother or thru the father. Then again, Rabbanites call Karaite patrilineals non-Jews, and Karaites call Rabbanite matrilineals non-Jews, and Rabbinical Orthodox call Rabbinical Reform patrilineals non-Jews, and Rabbinical Reform call non-Jewish raised matrilineals non-Jews. Samaritan Jews (who have a different Torah and who are a mixture of mostly Babylonian and little Israelite ancestry) are also not acknowledged as Jews by Rabbanites or Karaites. So, I know I’m in very good company.
This reminds me of the 1970’s evacuation and aliyah of Ethiopian Jewry (operation “Magic Carpet”). This group, who has been Jewish for 3000 years (tradition has it that Ethiopian Jews come from Solomon and Sheba) found a strange thing happening to them when they arrived to Israel: Rabbis would come to them and literally ask for them to be officially converted (I guess because they are all ‘patrilineal’). The males were asked to expose their privates so a drop of blood could be drawn. First came the Ashkenazi rabbis, then the Sephardic. These were surely all well intentioned rabbis, but i can’t help to think what these Ethopian people must have thought: “what do you mean you want to circumcise me?! If I’m not a Jew, then why am I here?” Heck, if one follows Karaite interpretation, it’s the Ethiopian Jews who should have asked the rabbi if he wouldn’t mind getting poked in return too. Just be sure, you know.
At the end of the day, with my Torah, my faith in God, and my Jewish ancestry, that’s all I need to claim my stake in Jacob’s house. (And, no offers for recircumcision, thankyou very much.)
Cheers,
akaGershom
Thank you Robin. Your comments were both informative and inspiring.
Dear Justin:
This is Robin Margolis from the Half-Jewish Network.
Regarding why Jewish men marry out — recent surveys show that Jewish women are now starting to marry out in equal numbers.
While in the past some people intermarried to get out of Judiasm or out of Christianity, the recent surveys and interviews with interfaith couples show that the majority simply met and fell in love. For most of them, there was no premeditation, self-hating or prejudice against dating members of their own groups.
Now, some Jews, male and female, are like your Dad — they do tell family members and interviewers that they don’t like dating other Jews. What your Dad’s reasons are for feeling this way, I don’t know — you might want to ask him. Some people just have unfortunate experiences with members of their own ethnic and religious groups, which can cause them to look “outside” for mates.
Other Jewish members of interfaith couples tried to find Jews to date — in many cases they spent many years and a lot of money on this quest — but they did not find a compatible Jewish mate. Rather than give up their dreams of marriage and/or children, they intermarried.
I have interviewed Jewish women who told me that rather than wait until their biological clock ran down before they met a Jewish Mr. Right, and be deprived of having children, they chose to marry a non-Jewish man and have children with him.
One example of the difficulties facing Jewish singles today are the problems faced by Orthodox Jewish singles. They are having a very difficult time finding compatible mates — there are a huge number of Orthodox Jewish singles websites discussing this problem. Just put in “Orthodox Jewish singles” into a search engine, and you will see many websites on the subject.
Non-Orthodox Jews face similar difficulties and frequently have less tightly-knit Jewish communities with fewer dating referrals.
Now with regard to your concern that “matrilineals fear us and see us as the enemy” — just a quick terminology update —
“patrilineals” are the children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers —
“matrilineals” are people with Jewish mothers and non-Jewish fathers — I can assure you, as a matrilneal and the leader of a large organization for adult children of intermarriage that matrilineals like myself do not fear people like you or see you as the enemy. We see people like you as our brothers and sisters.
Many of us matrilineals, despite having a Jewish mother, are treated as second-class Jews by many Jewish organizations.
I think you meant “born Jews” — people with two Jewish parents — when you said “matrilineals” — and sadly, some born Jews with two Jewish parents do fear us and see us as the enemy.
People with two Jewish parents are never called “matrilineals.”
Regarding some born Jews not accepting us, that is sad, but our numbers are growing. We are 48% of all Jewish-identified college students. That percentage will rise in the near future.
I believe most Jewish communities will gradually become more welcoming to us and less afraid of us as our numbers grow.
But if you visit the Half-Jewish Network at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
you will be cordially welcomed by the adult children of Jewish fathers and the adult children of Jewish mothers.
We see you as a Jew and share family backgrounds similar to yours. You would be very welcome.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
I too am patrilineal and my father always told me I was really Jewish. According to some of you, he was wrong. I find the quote about pleasing a Jewish father interesting.
The truth is that many, many Jews both men and women are marrying out in record numbers (at least in the states) The Jewish pupulation has been surpassed by Mormons. No strike against Mormons but it does concern me that with the decline in population, Jew will become less influential within a few generations.
Does anyone know why men marry out? My dad always said he didn’t like Jewish women. I never took it too seriously until I became older. My feminsit values are greatly offended at his statement.
I don’t know what the answer is. I think one thing we all have in common is concern about the decline in population. Patrilineals want to help and matrilineals fear us and see us as the enemy.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the years to come.
In reply to stephanie I am half jewish on my fathers side i have traced my fathers line back to to 16 58 , pure jewish all the way ,also my jewish bubba the same I am more jewish than some of them so called frummers
JewishMother, referring to patrilineal descent children: “They are sweet kids but there is a difference, another mentality and quality. They are no more Jews than the man in the moon. ”
I know of a Jewish family with a son and a daughter. The daughter married a non-Jewish man and had three children. The son married a woman who had a Jewish father but non-Jewish mother and had three children. Both families raised their children Jewish, the son more so than the daughter.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you met these six fine young grandchildren, you’d be able to “sense” the three that came from a halachically Jewish mother and the three that didn’t?
Even though the three that didn’t (the son’s children) actually have MORE Jewish blood in them, as three of their four grandparents were halachically Jewish, compared to their cousins (the daughter’s children), in which only two of their four grandparents are halachically Jewish?
It makes no sense.
And btw, JewishMother, have you ever considered starting your own blog? I’d totally read it and I’m sure I’m not alone.
Shy Guy–
It is Thanskgiving, and I would like to lay this issue to rest…for now. Let’s agree to disagree. Clearly, you have no interest in taking anything that I have said or suggested into consideration. That’s fine. There is no need to get hostile. I don’t need your labels or condescension, and I refuse to let you marginalize me or my beliefs. Happy Thanksgiving.
P.S. (and F.Y.I. ) Ani mevinah ivrit. You don’t need to translate.
Ok got your message wasnot sure if got first comment ignore last one ,thanks
Hitler and his ss said jews ,were vermin kill them like , rats ,well i am half jewish perhaps they would onlyhave choped my rat tail of gods sake get a life
It’s just real, that’s all. It just is.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Robin cannot be pleased no matter who does what because the problem is inside not outside. I hope I am wrong and I hope she walks the talk and has lots of wonderful Torah- observant children. Show us!
No, I didn’t get my complexion in the Middle East. I picked it up somewhere in Europe, I forget when.
In is my opinion, just to offer my personal opinion, the matrilinear rule eflects reality. I am not being scholarly, Talmudic, or philosophical. I can offer nothing scientific to base this on, nothing. I am not talking scientifically right now. And, I am late-life Orthodox, so my opinion is not based on childhood indoctrination.
It is simply my experience, and impression, that the people I have met conform, in their personal qualities, to this rule, and to all the other rules about valid conversions.
This is utterly subjective.
For instance. I am acquainted with two adorable children with dark coloring whose father is Jewish and whose mother is of dark-eyed American stock, a charming Christian lady. The children have Biblical first names, and a Jewish last name.
They are sweet kids but there is a difference, another mentality and quality. They are no more Jews than the man in the moon.
If that is moon-beams, well, it’s the way it looks and feels to me.
Mom rules!
I have no great answers.
If a Jewish guy objects to his Christian wife baptising their children, he is out of line. She should definitely baptise them.
but what if those children don’t believe in christianity. why should children who might believe religiously in judaism be baptized?
“This is utterly subjective.”
one of the only things in your paragraph that is applicable to the larger argument.
Jewish Mother —
Just to clarify: 2000 years old means that the law is not of biblical origin…not that is not, as you said, “plenty old enough.”
Does the passage (Deut. 7:3-4) say anything about the children of those unions? No, it does not. THAT is what I mean about there being no explicit, specific endorsement. Matrilineal law affects the identity of the PRODUCT(S) of intermarriage – the offspring; it has no effect whatsoever on the intermarrying couple.
And yes, you are right…the passage does forbid both forms of intermarriage – unions of Jewish sons to Gentile daughters as well as Jewish daughters to Gentile sons. So how is this proper justification for Matrilineal law, even if we ignore the fact that it fails to address the status of the children?
I have read elsewhere that the Rabbis interpret “your son” to be the Israelite’s “grandson;” he, the child of intermarriage, turned away from G-d. In other words, the son of a Gentile woman and a Jewish man is not Jewish. But isn’t this a fairly loose, possibly convenient interpretation? I do not claim to be a biblical scholar (though I have done my research), but there is something about the Talmudic stance on this passage that just doesn’t make sense to me.
Indeed, the Torah reports likely cases of intermarriage among the ‘higher ranking’ folks; we have little to none information at hand regarding the practices of the common people, but we may assume that intermarriage took place among common people as well if it’s reported of outstanding figures (and not condemned in their cases at that). I know a few Chasidishe rabbis that agree on that; furthermore, the more educated among them are aware of the Pentateuch’s editorial history and that if not for the genizot, we’d have no evidence for the authenticity of biblical scriptures prior to the time the Torah was standardized / canonized in early medieval Europe. Those genizot, however, only contained ‘fragments’ as in either only literally fragments of parchments or single books. But there is a thing that Catholicism and Judaism have in common, which is the mandatoriness of teachings and traditions alongside the biblical scriptures (in contrast to Protestantism, which only abides by the scriptures, which my “sola scriptura” comment above referred to), yet there’s a hierarchy with the scriptures being on top rank of the degree of mandatoriness. So, if a tradition or a teaching clashes with the Biblical scriptures, it theoretically instantly becomes void. In practice, people may or may not have had a stronger affinity to the traditions than to the scriptures, which eventually turned into commonly accepted practice (in Christianity, you’ve got the celebrations of Christmas, for instance, that were condemned by the early official church). There were educated rabbis, but in many smaller congregations, the eldest of the village served as rabbi – and his life experience and wit (or whatnot for that matter) became part of his congregants’ religious experience. Also, the only reliable birth and death records in medieval Europe were kept by the Church; if an Ashkenazi person claims their family tree is free of any intermarriage, it historically is rather a gross assumption and probably in many cases “wishful thinking”. Since marriages were only pemitted among first-borns in in many parts of medieval Europe (to avoid excessive population growth), any child born to a not officially wed couple was usually registered as a child to some legally wed sibling (that’s why the Church early on banned marriages between adopted siblings as the likeliness was high they were first- or second-degree relatives). There may or may not have been Jewish documents that minutely traced lineage; those documents may have got lost during progroms, but the status quo is that we do lack substantial evidence to claim “genealogical purity”. We cannot outrule the notion that men as well as women hooked up with people from other faiths and children resulted out of such relationships or casual encounters. We cannot outrule the idea that Jewish women got pregnant through rape. It may or may not have taken place. There’s no call to encourage intermarriage (at least if you don’t believe in the necessity of large gene pools) or to forego religious identity, but please stop digging the trenches deeper than they already are, because that, IMHO, simply is childish behaviour.
Amber, two thousand years is plenty old enough.
The matrilinear thing IS a liberal flexibility already; the passage you quote forbids EVEN THAT.
Robin’s family illustrates the truth that yes, the children often do go to another religion. Look at her brothers.
Robin has no issue with the literal stuff. She knows she is Halachically a Jew; it is the social realities that are hard, non-acceptance, awkward acceptance, tinged acceptance. And legal difficulties in Israel. As if everybody lived in Israel. Or had to live in Israel.
Well, this isn’t Christianity. Not every Jewish family is going to have an easy time having Christian in-laws, uncles, aunts and cousins. None of whom, no matter how nice, think the same way we do. Some Jewish families may not mind. It’s a big world.
Shy Guy-
You obviously did not read my post very carefully…and yet you seem quite confident in your ability to deconstruct my argument. Matrilineal law IS NOT biblical. The Mishnah was not formally transcribed until circa 200 C.E. I am also well aware of what the Talmud says regarding this issue, as well as its basis for commentary…(Deut. 7:3-4): “Thy daughter thou shalt not give to his son, nor shalt thou take his daughter to thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods.” What I said was that there is no EXPLICIT statement anywhere in the TORAH itself that endorses Matrilineal and REJECTS patrilineal descent. Most Rabbis – and no, not only reform – will acknowledge this. I never said that there was a Rabbinic debate over the issue…re-read my post. If you don’t believe that interpretation is involved in Halachah, and if you truly believe that you, yourself have abstained from “making up all the rationalizations in the world to accomodate your opinion,” then you are fooling yourself. I respect that you uphold Halachah via the Mishnah as authoritative (you are Orthodox?), but sometimes – even in Judaism – a little flexibility is not such a terrible thing. You can’t ignore the realities (i.e. increased intermarriage rates, etc.) of Modernity.
Robin, the Jews are an ethnicity and not just a thought-sharing group. Your parents, by their action in marrying, effectively declared that to be not so. It is still so, however.
It is not just a philosophy.
Christianity is. Judaism is not.
Judaism has NEVER represented itself as welcoming and inclusive, so why does it have to be? Because that is nice? Jews are the nicest of all: the seven Noahide laws, in their teaching, make everybody holy, Jew or not. Christianity says the opposite; if you are not Christian, your are not holy. WE are the liberals, not them.
But they are ok and I do not quarrel with them in any way. They should just do their thing, and let us do ours. They can’t understand us, and that is ok with us, but it is annoying for them.
You are trying to be rationalist, but life isn’t always completely susceptible to logic.
Your outreachings are going to show people the painful consequences of intermarriage, so keep it up. Your efforts will prevent future inter-marriages.
I am SO SORRY you have difficulties, but as you say, there is no silver bullet, really.
Talk is not going to make this go away.
I wish you strong faith, as G-d is one, even though mankind is various, and I salute you for taking the hard path, not the easy one, which your brothers took.
The Jews have a right to their feelings. Your parents did what they wanted to. You are going to have to work with what you have, and be patient. That’s not great news, but it is all I can think of.
Now, about the birthrate…. that is my schtick. So, are you seeing anybody?
Nope, Amber. The definition of a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother is a Halachah Le’Moshe Mi’Sinai. That puts it at around 3500 years old.
It is an issue that was never argued over for a moment throughtout the Talmud, through the Rishonim and the Acharonim – never.
Of course, if you want to play Reform Judaism, you can do what you want and make up all the rationalizations in the world to accomodate your opinion.
Which is exactly what you did.
jewish mother:
i don’t know why you think that matrilineal law is a 5000 year old teaching. it is actually a little less than 2000 years old. perhaps you are implying that it is biblical? in reality, the rabbinic community has yet to identify any explicit endorsement of matrilineal descent in the Torah, and in fact, there is evidence of a patrilineal biblical standard as well. this is obviously a matter of interpretation, with more than one possible answer.
additionally, if you look closely at the time period during which matrilineal law was formally introduced (immediately following the destruction of the second temple) it appears that many of the reasons for matrilineal law may have been much more practical than religious/spiritual; for instance, by making jewishness a trait passed through the mother, the rabbis were better able to protect jewish women who were being raped (or forced into marriage) by the non-jews of occupying nations. of course, there are other possible answers, but you get the idea.
Dear Jewish Mom:
I appreciate you saying that I’m living proof of matrilineal descent because I’m attached to my mother’s Judaism — I know you’re trying to be welcoming —
but my three brothers followed my dad, and identify as firmly committed Protestant Christians. One of them considers himself “partly Jewish” and has a strong affection for Israel, but he is a very active Christian — an Air ForceChristian chaplain.
My family is living proof that the matrilineal descent rule doesn’t work.
On the other hand, I have met many patrilineal Jews who are strongly committed Jews.
Now I’m not sure where you get the idea that I plan to weld Judaism and Christianity together — I have no such desire or mighty powers 🙂
It’s difficult enough for me living as a Jew.
One thing I would very much appreciate — where did you get “a Jew, but a spiritual orphan” quote from? If you don’t mind posting a source, I would be very appreciative, and could add it to my research.
I would be greatly in your debt if you have the source for that quote handy.
Regarding “conversion is always available” — sadly, no, it is not a silver bullet solution for adult children of intermarriage.
I spend a lot of time trying to assist patrilineals whose conversions are disputed. Some of them have been through — get this — two or three conversion ceremonies, in an effort to get a halachically valid conversion, and even then it is disputed by some rabbi somewhere.
For example, Israeli Orthodox are now beginning to refuse to acknowledge conversions by other Israeli Orthodox. Now, if they can’t agree on “who is a Jew?,” we are at a dead end.
So conversion is not the solution for many of us.
You seem to feel that our intermarried parents are the cause of all of our problems.
Candidly, while it is not easy growing up in an interfaith home, and our intermarried parents don’t always handle our issues as well as one might like and do leave us sometimes with heavy issues to resolve —
many of our identity problems as adults are exacerbated by our fellow Jews, and their ambivalent treatment of us.
Christians are going through a philo-Semitic phase, so being partly-Jewish in most Christian settings nowadays is a bonus. Anti-Semitism occurs towards us, but more sporadically than 50 years ago.
This thread, for example, would never last this long on a Christian message board.
Within three posts about “who is a Christian?” — whether it was a liberal or a fundamentalist message board — shocked Christians would be writing in to rebuke their cohorts for failing to welcome the children of intermarriage, reminding other posters that Jesus was a Jew, threatening to report the entire thread to a moderator as anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi, warning other Christians not to fall back into the anti-Semitic attitudes prevalent before World War II, etc.
Christians would totally have a fit with a thread like this.
Such a thread would last for three posts on a Christian listserve, before some hearty, earnest posters would warmly invite all of the half-Jewish people who posted to their churches and offer to refer them to ministers with outreach to Jews.
Jewish Mother — my personal goal, is that within the next 20 years — discussion of half-Jewish people on Jewish message boards will be about three or four posts long, and focus on how can people like myself be warmly welcomed into the community, and how Jewish communities that refuse to welcome us can be outreached to do better.
That would be an enormous blessing.
Cordially,
Robin
http://www.half-jewish.net
…sola scriptura…
Dear Shy Guy:
One more thing — thank you for your comment about the Zohar! I had missed that section on non-Jewish neshamot — so much Kabbalah, so little time 🙂
I appreciate it, and will make a note of it for my research.
Anyone who finds items like that, please let me know, as I am accumulating research on the subject. Jewish literature is vast — I am very well-read, but the sea of the Torah is immense —
Cordially,
Robin
Dear Shy Guy:
My post was vague? How much more specific could I be?
Well, let me spell it out — the adult descendants of intermarriage are treated very poorly by the Jewish community worldwide — we are routinely humiliated, snubbed, excluded, denied pastoral services, and in Israel we are denied basic civil rights because of our parentage.
This behavior is usually “justified” by claims that it is compliance with the matrilineal rule — except matrilneals like myself are also often treated very badly.
What I am asking the people who read this thread is: as responsible Jews, what are we going to do to stop this behavior in our communities in the Diaspora and Israel, since the behavior is a flagrant chillul Hashem (desecration of G-d’s name) and a violation of Jewish communal values of chesed (kindness) and peace and not shaming other people in public?
This behavior is always justified by claiming that the halachic standard of “who is a Jew” permits this atrocious conduct.
This pattern of behavior towards descendants of intermarriage needs to stop.
Now I wouldn’t cite Moshe Rabbeinu as a support for matrilineal descent. He was intermarried to a non-Jewish woman, and
G-d apparently had to threaten his life to make him circumcise his sons (Exodus 4:24-25).
In addition, Moshe Rabbeinu permitted the judicial murder of a half-Jewish person with a Jewish mother and an Egyptian father on the grounds that “you shall have one standard for stranger and citizen alike,”(Leviticus 24:10-23), treating the half-Jewish matrilineal person as a “stranger” and his Jewish accuser with two Jewish parents as a “citizen.”
This is not very good support for the matrilineal rule.
The actual origin of the matrilineal rule began in the Talmudic era. For more information about the historical development of various rules on Jewish identity throughout Jewish history, see a detailed historical essay I wrote on “Who Is A Jew?” at:
http://www.half-jewish.net/whoisajew.html
Regarding comments in the Kabbalah about Jewish and non-Jewish souls, the Chabad Tanya, a wonderful mystical treatise, states that Jews have superior souls, and the souls of non-Jews come from the dark shells of evil.
The mass of works that compose the Kabbalah reflect the pre-modern eras in which they were written.
Now if you believe in every word of every Kabbalistic treatise — many of them written centuries apart and from wildly conflicting viewpoints — that is another thread, probably on fundamentalism and mysticism.
Getting back to our subject, it’s not moral to treat adult descendants of intermarriage the way we are treated in the Diaspora and Israel. It violates fundamental Jewish values, and weakens our communities.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
Half-Jewish Network
http://www.half-jewish.net
Robin , you consider yourself a: “… Renewal Jew with a “culturally Christian half” (strong emotional ties to her Christian family and their rich Scots-English-Dutch Protestant heritage).” Those are your own words on your own website.
You yourself are living proof that matrilinear is the truth. You are a matrilineal. You can’t let go of being a Jew, because you are one, though you are firmly rooted in a Christian life.
A patrilinear wants to please her father, and doesn’t have the tools to do that with. What is she supposed to do? Thanks, Dad.
A matrilinear has to be who she is, a Jew. A person like her is called by rabbis “a Jew, but a spiritual orphan”. Thanks, Mom. She doesn’t want to abandon her Dad…
What is she supposed to do?
I wish everybody well but the facts are the facts, and Judaism and Christianity are both worthy but not at all the same, and no, they aren’t going to meld together just because some people have celebrated both kinds of holidays and ceremonies.
I have no great ideas and I am sorry for people’s pain.
Let’s not pretend it can all be made ok if we just try hard enough, and let’s not do this to any more people.
Conversion is available. Re-tooling a five thousand year old teaching is not.
Everybody … has had to deal with messes their parents have left behind. It is the way of the world.
No One Wants Them To Meld Together. many of us just want to be considered jews. no strings attached
Zionist said–
“In the future if Robin and her ilk had their way Judaism will no longer exist as we know it. The Christmas and Easter holidays would be part of the new Judaism since most half-Jews celebrate them.”
I really don’t think that having a non-jewish, Christian mother carries any more weight than having a non-Jewish, Christian father in a person’s decision to observe Christmas or Easter. Your fear seems to come more from a lack of information and understanding of your patrilineal brethren than anything else. And for the record, there are a great number of “half-Jews” that are quite knowledgeable about Judaism –in both the religious, and academic sense. I am a “half-jew” (I use this term because we have no acknowledged label or name with which to address our Jewish identity as of yet) and a Judaic Studies major at a very good University. I also practice Judaism (Conservative) in my own home.
Bottom line: Don’t post unless you have the facts straight. Assumptions will usually get you in trouble…and make you look ignorant.
A vague post, Robin. No one’s subscribes here to attacking or intentionally humiliating anyone.
The difference between what makes one have a Jewish neshama verses a non-Jewish one has been on the books since Moshe Rabbeinu’s time.
As for your delving into Kabalah, surely you’ll be more than happy and honest enough to post here verbatim quotes straight from the Zohar on the subject of Jewish versus non-Jewish neshamot and the Zohar’s teachings on a Jewish neshama where the father is not Jewish.
We’ll wait………..
Dear Friends:
I will offer some corrections of a few misconceptions on this thread:
1. I am not male — full name, “Robin Elizabeth Margolis” — maybe next gilgul (reincarnation in Kabbalah) 🙂
2. I am not patrilineal — I had an Orthodox Jewish mother and an Episcopalian father — so I am matrilineal.
I was raised in my father’s faith, as an Episcopalian, and as an adult, I opted to live as a Jew.
3. I was greatly amused by one poster’s assumption that because I was raised as a Christian, and switched over to Judaism as an adult, I must therefore know little about Judaism.
It is an interesting myth, that only people with two Jewish parents, raised as Jews from birth, have any real Jewish knowledge. But it is a myth.
As the co-leader of a havurah for years, and a Kabbalah teacher for over a decade, I have done a lot of outreach to both Jews with two Jewish parents and adult descendants of intermarriage.
It is has been my privilege and honor to teach a lot of Judaism — festivals, prayers, basic Hebrew, Kabbalah, etc. — to very wonderful, warm people that the Jewish establishment has totally failed to connect with, even when they sat in its shuls and community centers.
For more information on efforts to improve Jewish outreach, please visit:
http://www.joi.org
http://www.interfaithfamily.com
4. There seems to be an assumption by some posters that matrilineals and patrilineals are somehow different, because some of us have Jewish mothers, and some have Jewish fathers.
In reality, when I have attended gatherings of adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage, we found that there were no real differences between patrilineals and matrilineals — we all share the same experience of having one Jewish parent and one non-Jewish parent. No one walking into the room could tell who had a Jewish father or a Jewish mother, unless people volunteered the information.
5. Protesting against the discrimination and humiliation of adult children of intermarriage within Jewish communities is not radical or innovative — we are calling for Judaism to live up to its traditional values, starting with chesed (kindness).
It is not a Jewish value to harm people because of their parentage — to publicly snub them, humiliate them, deny them conversions, and (in Israel) deprive them of basic civil rights.
5. There is enormous social and legal discrimination in Israel against the patrilineal children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of intermarriage — and it is always justified by appeals to the matrilineal rule.
Anyone doubting that patrilineal adult descendants of intermarriage are frequently deliberately prevented from obtaining Orthodox conversions in Israel, and are also subjected to other ugly social and legal penalties — always justified by the words “they don’t have a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother, so they’re not Jews”
— is welcome to visit the website of the Association for the Protection of Mixed Families (in Israel) at:
http://www.mixedfamilies.rustreet.com/english/staff.php
which spells out their plight in great detail.
Matrilineal children in Israel, despite being considered “real” Jews, experience a certain amount of social hostility and contempt directed against their parentage. It is definitely a disadvantage in Israeli society.
Much of the discrimination against us in Israel then poisons our relationships with Jews in the Diaspora — I have seen the “Israel does it” justification used to harm adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage in Diaspora communities.
Very simply, it is not a Jewish value to attack people for having a non-Jewish father or a non-Jewish mother or exclude them from the Jewish community or relegate them to second-class citizen status in Judaism.
I hope that Jews reading this thread will take action in their own communities when they see or hear of discrimination against adult descendants of intermarriage. That would be a positive mitzvah, for which they will be rewarded in olam haba.
The great Orthodox sage, the Chofetz Chayim, pointed out that “it is a positive commandment to bear affection for everyone in Jewry as for oneself.” (The Concise Book of Mitzvoth, p. 77).
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
Half-Jewish Network
http://www.half-jewish.net
According to Halacha law you’re a Jew if your mother’s a Jew, end of story. I’m sorry if you don’t like it but that’s the way it is. I’m tired of some half-Jews trying to change Judaism.
If you don’t like it then join a Reform synagogue where the standards for anything authentically Jewish are very low. Just don’t make the rest of us try to change for you.
Robin Margolis has some nerve calling Jewish values “crazy.” This is especially infuriating since Robin was raised as a Christian. She don’t know anything about Judaism and only wants to cause trouble.
In the future if Robin and her ilk had their way Judaism will no longer exist as we know it. The Christmas and Easter holidays would be part of the new Judaism since most half-Jews celebrate them.
That’s scary!
There are three types of imperatives in the Jewish religion. The first is the kind that makes immediate sense, for example, injunctions against murder or theft. The second may not make immediate sense but further reflection and/or experience renders it quite sensible – what comes to mind are the rules related to Sabbath observance. The third makes no sense at all and no reason is proferred for its observance. For instance, why not eat pork and shellfish?
“i have one jewish friend whose mother (jewish) is far more likely to eat ham and lobster with her daughter than to patronize kosher restaurants or eat kosher food on any given night.” This friend and her Mother are very healthy indeed and their continued consumption of treiff does not seem to have affected them at all.
For those Traditional Jews who view Judaism as a religion and who practice it traditionally, it doesn’t matter that matrilineal descent is not an absolute guarantee against loss of identity etc. Religion does not have to be logical nor does it always have to make sense. Judaism is a faith, and we have faith in Torah and in our learned elders who have successfully kept us alive and thriving through thick and thin. I’m not advocating the elimination of evolution. Judaism was never a static religion. But as it stands now, like it or not, certain segments of the Jewish population accept the requirement of matrilineal descent and that’s not going to change because some people think its foolish.
in response to jewish mother’s latest comment:
what you said about the impact of mothers on their children is certainly true. but aren’t there plenty of halachically jewish mothers out there who neglect their jewish roots, and pass that same negligence and apathy on to their children? i have one jewish friend whose mother (jewish) is far more likely to perform new age rituals and tarot card readings with her daughter than to attend synagogue or do havdalah on saturday night. in this sense, your argument -that a mother’s greater impact on her children partially justifies the tradition of matrilineal descent – doesn’t really hold water.
you say, “just convert and you will be accepted!” sure, sounds easy enough: just dip in the mikvah and you’re one of us, part of the club, no big deal…but for me, it’s the principle of the thing. i do not believe that i should have to, in essence, “prove” my jewishness or level of committment to Judaism to others, when the children of jewish moms do not have this same obligation. i appreciate your openness, and i’m sure that you mean no harm, but telling the patrilineal children on this site to (and you make an obvious “us vs. you” distinction) “convert asap and have some latkes” feels a little like friendly condescension.
People’s mothers do TOO have a different, and more intimate, impact on them, than their fathers do. It’s not symetrical.
People with Jewish last names and faces, but no Jewish moms, are totally welcome – please convert asap and have some latkes. You can teach us all. You will know more than many of us, and you will have been in a mikvah, which many of us are too scared to dip our frightened little toes into.
Men go to mikvah, too. It’s not about female cooties at all. Just ask Rabbi Yo.
this is not true. I grew up in a house hold where my mother’s side of the family lived very far away and my dad’s side all lived within a day’s trip or the same city. me and my mother almost never spoke of religion but i celebrated jewish holidays and have studied some theology. why do you assume that MY mother impacted me more than MY father
hmmm…apparently my last comment (not yet viewable” is “awaiting moderation.” i don’t think i said anything terribly controversial. a tad biting, perhaps, but not controversial. has anyone else had this happen? strange….
shy guy–
your moniker seems a bit inaccurate.
you are definitely NOT shy.
just a little food for thought:
1) it would be interesting to see (if the matrilineal-patrilineal law were reversed) just how accepting and tolerant you would be of the “inconvenient fact”. perhaps you might be more prone to expressing such so-called “emotional drivvle [sic: DRIVEL]” yourself.
2) i’m fairly confident that everyone on this board is aware of the definition of “humiliation.” if you don’t agree that rejection, exclusion, and ostracization are synonymous with this term, then it’s possible your sensitivity chip is missing.
3) i doubt that many children of intermarriage (myself included) feel the need to “point their blaming fingers” at their fathers. if they had not married our gentile mothers, we would not be here.
and you are right, michelle. the law DOES need to change. but until we are rid of the mindset that acceptance of patrilineally jewish children will undermine the sanctity of law, or – even worse – threaten the very existence of the jewish people, we are not going to get anywhere. let’s start with a fight against ignorance.
I think Robin’s so incensed that he used the word ‘crazy’; well I did initially in my post. Perhaps ‘illogical’ is a better word. The craziness relates to this: if you took a straw poll of random people who knew nothing about Judaism and asked, is it fair that your identity is determined solely by your mother and not by your father, I think everyone will say that it’s unfair.
[quote]but why is it so important for you to get acceptance from people whose values you deem to be “crazy?â€[/quote]
I don’t think he’s looking for ‘acceptance’, but a change in the law. Because then the matrilineal ‘value’ becomes irrelevant.
“Whereas if their one Jewish great-grandparent was female — and was their mother’s mother’s mother — they’d be considered Jewish and have Israeli citizenship.”
That would just mean that there Mother was Jewish. And their Mother’s Mother as well as their Mother’s Mother’s Mother.
Look I don’t begrudge Jews with Jewish Fathers and non-Jewish Mothers to call themselves whatever they like and live however they like. i recognize the fact that by virtue of this self-identification we share a certain commonality and I will always be as warm and friendly and as accepting… as possible.
But to call the values Traditional Jews cherish “crazy” as Robin Margolis did, well… that’s not very tolerant now is it.
People are free to worship at Reform or Reconstructionist temples, and that’s fine, but why is it so important for you to get acceptance from people whose values you deem to be “crazy?” Whose values you don’t accept and outright reject? Acceptance of patrilineal descent is just not going to happen in the Orthodox world any time soon. To whatever extent it might happen it will not be aided by calling people crazy.
That being said, there’s no reason to humiliate anyone, there’s no reason to be as kind and as hospitable as possible.
This is emotional drivvle.
Who said anyone should be humiliated? And if your definition of humiliation is stating a fact and pointing out the incovenient, then we have different defintions of humiliation.
Lots of these conversions deserve to be denied. They are not “obstructed” any more than claiming it is an “obstruction” for a kosher restaurant not allowed to serve pork.
There is no such thing as a half-Jew. There are definite Jews, definite gentiles and Jews whose status is in doubt. People of gentile matrilineal descent are gentiles, plain and simple.
If you don’t like it, point your blaming finger at the Jewish father who violated his obligations as a member of the Jewish people. Count the rest of us out.
I don’t usually allow Nazis to define for me what Judaism is and isn’t
Dear Michelle:
I totally agree. It is crazy.
And it gets “better.”
The Association for the Protection of Mixed Families (in Israel) is, as we speak, trying to get legislation passed to protect several thousand adult patrilineal great-grandchildren of intermarriage in Isreal —
They have one Jewish male great-grandparent — but they have grown up in Israel, many identify as Jews, serve in IDF, pay taxes, etc. — but they are not even entitled to Israeli citizenship.
Whereas if their one Jewish great-grandparent was female — and was their mother’s mother’s mother — they’d be considered Jewish and have Israeli citizenship.
I am hoping that many of my fellow Jews will respond to the massive craziness and injustice these situations embody.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
Just to be more succint, I find it crazy that my mother’s great grandmother being Jewish means I’m considered more of a Jew than someone whose father is Jewish?!
Dear Robin, thanks for your comment, I’m actually really surprised that more Jewish men intermarry than do Jewish women, so thanks for that information. I’m skeptical however about the Jewish men who are actively encouraged to sow wild oats before settling down with a halakhically Jewish woman, I’ve just not heard of this before. In my case, the matrilineal descent rule has changed my views about my identity a great deal – we’ve recently discovered that my great-great-grandma on my mother’s side was Jewish, so that means I’m suddenly a Jew (according to Halakha). This old law means I can call myself a Jew, but if I had a great grandfather who was Jewish, then I wouldn’t be a Jew, so I find it very illogical.
Dear Michelle and Allan:
Thank you for your interest in adult children of intermarriage.
It is a common myth that the matrilineal rule ensures that Jewish men don’t intermarry.
Actually, historically, Jewish men have been more likely to intermarry than Jewish women. The matrilineal rule has been a spectacular failure in that respect.
Intermarriage rates for Jewish men and women in the U.S. are very high, and about equal now.
Not only has the matrilneal rule been an enormous failure in preventing intermarriage, but many Jews are not aware that the matrilineal rule has also led to a number of “chillul Hashem” (desecration of G-d’s name) situations.
For example, in some instances, Jewish single men are covertly encouraged to have affairs with non-Jewish women to “sow their wild oats” and then abandon the resulting families for a marriage to a “real” Jewish woman.
It’s not a Jewish value to abandon dependent children irregardless of who their mother is.
And the impact of the matrilneal descent rule on thousands of patrilineal adult children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of intermarriage in Israel is immensely harmful to Judaism.
They experience enormous amounts of social and legal discrimination against them, even when they identify as Jews, pay taxes, serve in the IDF, etc.
It cannot be a Jewish value to humiliate partly-Jewish people about their parentage and deliberately obstruct their conversions, as frequently occurs in Israel.
For more information about the negative impact of the matrilineal descent rule on Judaism, you might be interested in visiting Emunah Avot, a newly-founded organization for patrilineal adult children of intermarriage and their Jewish fathers, at:
http://www.emunahavot.net
Their website and contact information are still under construction, but anyone wishing to contact them can reach me at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
and I will gladly put you in touch with the founder of Emunah Avot.
Again, thanks for your interest. I appreciate the chance to comment on the misconceptions about the matrilineal descent rule.
Cordially,
Robin Margolis
http://www.half-jewish.net
I agree but its one of those double edged swords
I agree with the Reform idea that children whose father is Jewish should be considered Jews because Halacha was only introduced because back then you couldn’t be sure who the father was. Now with paternity tests, the idea is outdated. However I guess it does serve the second idea of ensuring Jewish men seek out a Jewish woman (either born or by choice), to reduce intermarriage.
I think what the poster who mentioned what the Nazi definition of Jew is, here is an example:
Ben Stiller and Adrian Brody:
To haters: Jewish
To Religious Jews (non-reform) – Not Jewish
To everyone else: Jewish (“did you see the noses on those guys, they have Jew names, and they’re talented!”)
Religious Jews may be selective about who is and who isn’t, but the Nazis weren’t – they murdered half-Jews with the same enthusiasm as full-Jews.
Is cool and to say hello.
It’s fine.
Sample design…
JK,
Well I’m not exactly speaking for myself. I’m simply stating the traditional Jewish position. I’m really happy that you have maintained some connection to your Judaism and of course the designation “half-jew” exists in a broader context! It’s your identity and nothing I say can and ought to change that. But you know as well as I do that in traditional Judaism, there exists no such designation – for religious purposes one either is, or isn’t a Jew. Those are just the rules as they exist and we can discuss their provenance and their validity but we can’t debate the fact that that’s what they are. Other denominations may see things differently but I wasn’t purporting to speak on their behalf. And of course there is a theoretical possibility that in my own background I would find a female ancestor that wasn’t Jewish – I seriously doubt it though as all my people on both sides of my family were very religious. We’re from Morocco and we were very very poor to boot – not much intermarriage going on there I assure you – but yeah, theoretically it’s possible but completely unheard of. Now, suppose I do discover that my great, great grandmother on m Mother’s side wasn’t Jewish? Then I wouldn’t consider myself Jewish for religious purposes until I went to a Rabbi and converted in order to remedy the situation. I wouldn’t allow myself to be counted for a minyan, I wouldn’t allow myself to be called to the Torah etc. I hope that clarifies things.
CK,
You are speaking for yourself, not “we”. as you can see there are many Jews born of jewish mothers who don’t agree with you. I am born of a non-jewish mother and jewish father, and raised in both faiths. I have a strong connection to both sides of my ancestry, and I consider myself a true “half-jew”. Can that not be an indentity in itself? Whether you agree with me is irrelevant. Furthermore, you might want to check into your own background some – there are many jews who have done this only to find out that if they go back, they will find a female ancestor who was a non-jew, making them a non-jew. Are you so sure you are actually jewish by your own definition?
Bake my noodle? Do you think this is remarkable or something? I mean what is Jewish etnicity anyway? Do you know how many Jewish people there are out there who never spoke Yiddish or made latkes – not them and not any of their ancestors… I won’t bother commenting on your “watching their money” aside. So if your Mom was Jewish then the Jewish religion considers you a Jew as conversions out of the faith are not recognized – but as a practicing Lutheran who doesn’t believe in the Jewish religion, why matrilineal descent should matter to you is beyond me. We consider you a full Jew. You are free to consider yourself whatever you like. 🙂
My mother comes from Bohemian Jews who escaped the germans and fled to America. They were Jewish ethnically and of the Lutheran faith. Let that bake your noodle. Spoke Yiddish, made some mean Latkes, watched their money lol, and had Jewish names all over.
Krulik – Roth –
A lot of Kruliks died in Auschwitz… a lot… made me tear up when I first saw it. Only about 1300 people in America with that last name.
I am proud of my ethnicity and my heritage. I am a Christian but ethnically I am part Jewish and it’s “legit” because it is on my mother’s side lol.
If you want an interesting study on being Jewish ethnically and/or in religious practice study the history of Bohemia now called Czechoslovakia ( Czech Republic ) )
Dear Romolio:
If you will contact me, I will be glad to send you the Half-Jewish Network’s free email newsletter, so you can keep in contact with other adult children of intermarriage.
I can be reached at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
Very cordially,
Robin Margolis
I moved to Israel 2 months ago. Im working with the Spokesman division of the IDF in order to generate some positive media coming out of this country. I am putting myself, financially, emotionally and physically on the line in order to help this place., because I am passionate about the safety and well being of the Jewish people, and believe this country, and our people need all the help we can get. My dad is Jewish, my mom is not. I do Chanukah and Christmas. Im sick of all this elitist shit about people telling ME who I am. There is a real history on my dad’s side of the family that is my history as well. They left East Europe to avoid being killed, my grandpa changed his last name to something less Jewish so he could get work. To some extent being Jewish is a race. In that sense, I am a half-Jew. In a religious sense, I might not be as observant as some you guys, but I still feel that Hashems got my back. Call me what u want, but when I call myself Half-Jewish, u cant that that away from me, because that’s what I am.
I also have a lot of pride in my mom’s Irish heritage.
Dearest Robin,
You stated:
Actually the Israeli Law of Return, which allows both the descendants of Jewish fathers and the descendants of Jewish mothers to make aliyah, was created in explict response to the Nazi Nuremberg racial identity laws.
Israeli Law is not Halachah. It determines who is a Jew in a civil context and does not always correspond to Religious law. Once again I wish to state emphatically, that Nazis do not determine Halachah.
Robin also asked: Why would we respect “religious limitations†that result in social and religious discrimination against us in the U.S. Jewish community and legal and social second-class status in Israeli Jewish society?
Look, I am trying really hard to present a position that is as accommodating as possible. There are, simply stated, very real religious restrictions with people who aren’t technically Jewish. This exists in nearly every society. A Catholic priest will not marry me to another Catholic. I am not allowed to attend the Haj with my my Muslim wife unless I convert to Islam first. I cannot pitch for the Yankees without first being a member of the team, NASA will not fly me to the moon just because I really want them to.
That being said, I do not advocate ostracism. Quite the contrary, I advocate sensitivity, kindness and inclusion whenever and wherever possible. I don’t doubt that many of my co religionists, both religious and secular, have exhibited great insensitivity to “half Jews” and, that is simply neither right nor the Jewish way.
But please, offer the same , sensitivity and understanding that you demand of others!
Dear ck:
I would suggest that you study some half-Jewish websites and learn more about us.
You stated in an earlier posting that “we don’t allow the Nazis to determine for us who is a Jew.”
Actually the Israeli Law of Return, which allows both the descendants of Jewish fathers and the descendants of Jewish mothers to make aliyah, was created in explict response to the Nazi Nuremberg racial identity laws.
Second, when you talk about “mutual respect” between the Jews and half-Jewish people, and state that “half-Jews ought to be understanding of the religious limitations of this interaction” — that shows that you still don’t understand us.
Why would we respect “religious limitations” that result in social and religious discrimination against us in the U.S. Jewish community and legal and social second-class status in Israeli Jewish society?
For more information about the extremely negative personal impact on us of what you refer to as “religious limitations,” you may wish to visit the Half-Jewish Network website at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
and start by visiting our “Message Board” link, and see our experiences through our eyes.
Sincerely,
Robin Margolis
ben: Oh good grief. Of course there are real implications for people who choose to attach themselves to Jews. You used the vile term “mischligs” – but I never would, that’s terrible! The notion of purity is also an offensive one – Judaism is not a race wherein membership is determined by any physical feature. If your Mother is Jewish, you’re a Jew. If you convert, you’re a Jew.
Now, if you are not technically a Jew, but are married to one or your Father was one, and you’d like to explore, celebrate, live etc. your Jewish heritage, I have no problem being as inclusive and as encouraging as possible. Interaction between, for the sake of simplicity, “half-Jews” and the greater Jewish community, ought to be cordial, warm, welcoming, based on mutual respect and strongly encouraged.
But remember the proviso – mutual respect. As a Jews, we ought to exhibit great sensitivity and openness to “half Jews” and “half Jews” ought to be understanding of the religious limitations of this interaction.
Now is that so wrong?
Um, this a response to ck who says that “we don’t allow nazis tell us who’s Jewish.” In fact, previous generations did just this. And not just in the 1930s and 1940s and not just in Europe. Anti-semites in any era everywhere have defined Jewishness for their own purposes with catastrophic results for the “real” Jewish people, as well as for the “mischlings” that you so comfortably reject. Your rejection would mean nothing if there weren’t real implications for those who are left out of their own socieites in North Africa or Russia or elsewhere because of their mixed heritage and rejected by the Jewish state for not being as “pure” as you.
Dear Friends: I was very disturbed to see some of the hostile comments directed by born Jews to the adult children of intermarriage who posted on this thread.
It isn’t “kosher” to patronize and condescend to people who are trying to live as Jews.
Many of the born Jewish posters seemed to have a lot misinformation about adult children of intermarriage.
I suggest that they and any interested children of intermarriage are welcome to visit my website for half-Jewish folks at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
Note: the Half-Jewish Network is a different organization from the one that you are currently discussing.
Sincerely,
Robin Margolis
Dear Friends: I was rather disturbed by the hostile comments to the half-Jewish adult children of intermarriage commenting on this thread. It is not “kosher” to patronize or condescend to children of intermarriage who want to live as Jews.
Also, many of the born Jews posting seemed to have a lot of misinformation on adult children of intermarriage. Anyone who would like better information on adult children of intermarriage is welcome to visit my website for them at the Half-Jewish Network — not the same as the organization you are discussing, but a different one, at:
http://www.half-jewish.net
Sincerely,
Robin Margolis
Amber, even though I am not Karaite, you might want to seriously consider Karaite Judaism. Although they don’t accept the Oral Law as divine, they believe in Torah Mi’Sinai, and they are well to the right- much more observant than most Conservative Jews.
I think you should continue to practice Judaism, even without a piece of paper. I consider you to be a Jewess, as I am sure most Jews would.
Sadly, the Chief Rabbinate and others in the Orthodox establishment are considering conversion as some sort of political power game. I think we should all ignore them until they behave more reasonably, which will happen in time. It will happen sooner, if we all ignore them, and stop depending on them to “be kosher for us”.
you might be interested to know, if you do not already, that chief rabbi shlomo amar is currently lobbying to revoke the “right of return” from converts to judaism. this, of course, includes the children of jewish fathers who submit to halacha. what good is converting when rabbinical authorities are heading in this direction? i might as well continue to practice judaism, without my hard-won piece of paper to render me legitimate, in vain.
Since conversion is available and possible, why not just do it?
It is NOT meaningless. It’s no more meaningless than getting married for real, instead of almost.
The classes would probably be really interesting, too. The more Orthodox the better. You get full-strength. High fiber.
You can always lighten up later, but at least you will KNOW the Ortho story. You will know more than many others.
Now, won’t that be fun?
Anybody who thinks inter-marriage is no big deal should listen to the pain of these people, who have to live with its consequences.
The more the merrier, I say. Welcome to the tribe. Just do it right.
Hard? Expensive? Shul dues? Difficult books to read? Say “Oy Gevalt” a few times, and bend your back to it. We call it “Putting on the Yoke of Heaven” and yokes are not feather boas.
Shabbat Shalom, to each and every bro and sis, no matter how they got that way.
oops, didn’t mean to post that twice. sorry.
Juls- no one here said anything about children of jewish mothers being half-jewish or not jewish. i don’t understand your complaint. and excuse me, but many of us with “shiksa mothers” actually DO speak up. the problem is that people who, by accident of birth, happen to be halachally jewish, refuse to listen or to hear. that is the material point. you also said that those of us from jewish dads should “live elsewhere.”
Juls- no one here said anything about children of jewish mothers being half-jewish or not jewish. i don’t understand your complaint. and excuse me, but many of us with “shiksa mothers” actually DO speak up. the problem is that people who, by accident of birth, happen to be halachally jewish, refuse to listen or to hear. that is the material point. you also said that those of us from jewish dads should “live elsewhere.” where might that be? honestly, your comment confuses me.
Doesn’t everyone know that by Jewish tradition and law anyone with a Jewish mother is considered a total Jew? I’m not half-Jewish, my mother’s a Jew! Maybe the ones with shiksa mothers can live elsewhere. THEY’RE the ones that never learned to speak up!
Alternatively you follow the Hebrew faith. But for non-observant Jews like me? We’re a culture and just as Jew as all of you.
wow, henry. you have a very strong opinion for someone who, according to your own definition, is not jewish. why, then, do you visit this site? if you are currently converting, good for you. you’ve made your choice, i’ve made mine. and i still consider myself to be a jew. no one is going to take that away from me. i guess i just find it amazing that a man can worship trees and shun all jewish culture, but if he’s got a jewish mom, he’s jewish. a gentile can, after investing a year or less in study with a conservative or orthodox rabbi, become fully jewish, and be welcomed with open arms into the community. but someone like me is an outsider. where is the logic in that?
So what, Amber? I have jewish features as well, however I am not jewish, not yet. I dont care what anyone says, according to halakha, your jewish if your mother is jewish or you convert, thats it. Your either jewish or not. And dont even both with the “well being jewish is a race.” No its not. There are white jews and black jews and asian jews all over the world. If you want to be considered jewish you need to convert, its that simple. And for you it shouldnt be too hard. And not, saying this is not incensitive, its just the way it is.
because, laya, my comment was not in response to your original post. i am disturbed by the way several people on this board reacted to the “half-jewish” concept, in general. to claim that people with fathers who are jewish “want all of the credit and none of the blame,” and that there is no such thing as a half-jew, is shortsighted and insensitive to say the least. i, like cleo, have prominently jewish physical features…AND i live a jewish life…yet according to the jewish community at large, i am as much a goy as the WASP next door. Michael, CMH, and Esther, in particular: being the product of an intermarriage is not easy…you should thank HaShem that it is not your problem.
Ben: We don’t allow Nazis to determine for us who is and isn’t a Jew. But thanks for sharing your experience with us. I’m sorry for your losses.
Half of my family is Jewish, half is not. Throughout my 53 years I have connected mostly with the half that is not because most of the other half was eliminated in the last century. I used to be cautioned by Jewish friends that I should pay my Jewish heritage more attention as I would certainly have been “Jewish” enough for the Nazis. Thanks for listening.
I’m sorry amber, but I reread the very short post and don’t understand what you took offense to, although I am open to hearing it.
Otherwise, I think your anger might be a little displaced.
I’m half-Jewish. I’m not religiously Jewish, and my cultural heritiage of Judaism only ever seems obvious when I contrast it with my Christian friends. They consider me Jewish, if they consider it. I definately look jewish, and often am stymied as to how to respond when people in my all-white, nearly-all blonde community ask my ethnicity, so I usually say Jewish, as an explanation. I am proud of my heritage, but do I particulary intergrate it into my life? No. Religiously, I’m a Christian, but between my name and my looks I will always be a Jew like my dad. It’s a weird thing, because it is not how I see myself, yet it is something I have to proclaim often, since feigning ignorance seems anti-semitic and like a betrayal of my loved ones. It’s not a binary thing, though. Most of you would not consider me to be Jewish. The Gentile world does. That leaves me where? At least half-jewish is a category.
Good comment, Amber. Note that Reform Judaism does agree with your viewpoint.
my father is jewish. i identify with my jewish heritage, even though i am not jewish according to halacha, sans conversion of course. so what??? what right do you people have to laugh at someone who is the product of a mixed marriage and expresses a desire to connect with the religion of one of his/her parents? based on the halachic definition, “cathy christianson” with blond hair and blue eyes from a jewish mother is consideered to be a jew, while “ruth rubenstein” from a jewish father is not. it’s an outdated, non-biblical law. it’s stupid. and it excludes millions of “halfies” whose jewish identity has been dissipated by assimilation and intermarriage. shame on you for criticizing people who have as much a right to claim a jewish identity as you do. shame on you for mocking something you will never understand.
You know what I’ve always wondered? What percentage of Jews are atheists, by how large a margin this percentage would beat that of the population at-large (by quite a bit I would think,) and how many of them still regard themselves as Jewish. I have friends who will give me good-natured grief over this at their Passover seder: “you’ve got some nerve putting on that yarmulkeh, buddy…” “Oh yeah, well pass the Manischewitz, hymie, and you, me, and the mohel can discuss it at length…”
So NOW I’m wondering what percentage of half-Jews are atheists, and if it’s even a higher percentage (it probably is,) and how many of THEM regard themselves as Jewish. As it stands however, my casual research into this question is stymied as I remain a sample set of one.
When I say i am half Jewish and people ask which half? I say the best half….
I learned that from another half-Jew whose mother (Jew!) taught him that answer.
Consider this,
perhaps a lot of half-jews say they are because they want to feel connected to the history of one of their parents. I don’t believe there is any harm in that. Being Jewish generally seems to be a dual connection between genetic roots as well as cultural, religious beliefs. If a jewish person converts to another religion…are they still Jewish? Some people might say yes they are Jewish because their family is Jewish-thus expressing a genetic means of being Jewish, despite having changed their religious beliefs. Also the opposite could happen, where a person is not from a Jewish family or parent but has adopted the Faith for whatever reason.
If someone says they are half Jewish I believe it stems from a true desire to feel connected to what they should have every right to feel connected to.
Once again,
Grace is on the mark.
But seriously,
maybe with the whole religion thing being passe, and the new ‘limelight’ American Jewry is enjoying with the kabbalah-esther-britney thing, we can talk ‘secularly’ about the Jewish g-dless ethnicity.
The same way we can have ‘my italian wedding’, people that are ‘half-greek’, and the hebrew hammer too, then it’s totally okay to be ‘half-jewish’, right?
Agreed. No such thing as a half-jew. If you’re a hanyou you may feel confused and want to join some help group, but that’s it. You either are or arent. And if you are a jew, even if just one of your parents is, you know it, it’s quite hard not to notice.
Is that anything like being “kinda pregnant”?
😆 very clever.
I think that people who call themselves “half-Jewish” are looking to get all of the credit and none of the blame:
“Gee, those Jews sure are smart and successful.”
“Well, you know, I’m actually half-Jewish.”
“Gee, those Jews are a bunch of stingy greedy assholes.”
“Well, you know, I’m only half-Jewish.”
Could regular Jews visit? You know, to see the half-Jews in their natural habitat?
The is so old, and hasn’t been updated, except for sporadic missives, in years.
Michael’s made a good point,
but,
wow, proud to be half-Jewish. Is Mobius going to make a t-shirt?
I think my rabbi once said something like, “There’s no such thing as a half-Jew. Judaism is like binary. You’re either a 1 or a 0. You’re either a Jew or you’re not.”
Awesome. Life today becomes fuzzy.