A series of bombs exploded this morning in London injuring scores of people. From a country that unfortunately knows what you are going through, Israel extends its deepest sympathies and support. Every act of terror is an international tragedy for which there is no excuse.
The Jerusalem Post has a message board here if you have or are seeking information about friends and relatives that you believe may have been in the area.
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Elon, I disagree. You’re smarter than Wesley Clark.
Tommy boy (sorry i’m on a bit of an irish english kick)-
As to my original point, there is this guy his name is Wesly Clark, he was the supreme commander of this little organization called NATO and he agrees with my assessment and being that he is smarter than I am elaborates with some good strategic ideas.
Josh, you can stop calling me ignorant on every post. it’s stupid.
I am talking about the Iraq war, but I am more concerned about Americans than I am about Iraqis and Afghanis. I am more concerned about the loss of jobs, the unemployed, and all of the problems that we have in the US that are not being addressed by this bush. His gassing of the Kurds was quite a while ago. The bushman, said he had WMD and that is why he bush was making this war.
THis turned out to be a bit of a lie, or a mistake. Thus, if you still support the war, then we have to go after another 30 or so regimes that we don’t like how they run themselves. All w/ out world sanction, and all at the expense of the lowering of the American economy and unemployment, and underemployment which I have experienced in the great America for 3 years now and running, not living in my parents home but supposed to bring up children on the paltry salary they are paying now in the depressed economy, nor do I support a policy that will invade every country that we don’t like, who is next on your list, Cuba? Iran, North Korea, China?
josh, i d answer but i m afraid for i dont want to influence the world with my world too much.
i can hadle the truth!
ybocher,
Most people can’t handle the spiritual ramifications of what I’m about to say. What about you?
The Jews are responsible for everything that happens on the planet, good and bad. Just to clear it up for the folks clueless to my frequency, I’m not implying that Jews have a direct and active part in controlling the world, but rather the cause&effect of ALL events are for our sake.
Jobber,
I don’t think that isolationalism is the answer to anything (please see WWII for more information), but I also do not think that Bush had altruistic reasons for liberating Iraq and Afghanistan. Nonetheless, once a ‘people’ has the possibility to determine it’s own future, that’s much better than being slaves while we enjoy our own ‘freedom’.
Currently, those two countries are minus the dictator Saddam and the ruthless Taliban control. Life there still sucks, but would it have been better to ignore their plight?
Tom, are you saying that if the US agreed to the terrorist demands, that is a good thing? We don’t have to agree to their demands, no. The discussion here is regarding the Iraqi war, if this was a good or bad decision by bush.
We could pull the plug on Israel, but we can’t leave the region because of our oil dependency.
But I will say that while I believe we are at war with these Muslim terrorists, I fail to see the point of the Iraq War. If you want to fight terrorism, there are far better uses for our resources than this war. It is a shame that we are bogged down there, and it’s a shame that the planning for the post-war was so shoddy. At the end of the day, however, it has not weakened the terrorists in any way, while it has weakened us militarily and economically…which is exactly what Bin Laden has said he hoped to do to America.
If we had expended a fraction of the resources spent on Iraq in pursuing Bin Laden & Company, they’d be buried at this point.
What makes all of this worse is that in combination with the tax cuts, our borrowing has gone through the roof. And from whom are we borrowing money? The Chinese, aspirants to become the next solo world superpower.
Jobber, why not take ’em at the word? “They” hate the “Infidel.” Jews, Christians, non-believers. They resist modernity, pluralism, secular political systems, and other hallmarks of the West. And they perceive the foregoing as threats.
Look at al-Zarqawi’s texts, and bin Laden’s.
Do you think our task is to make “them” love us?
We could always pull the plug on the Israelis and leave the region altogether, right? Maybe they wouldn’t hate us as much if we did that….
Tom, the invasion of Iraq was about the WMD. There was no connection to the incidents you mentioned of the 80-90’s. We should still be getting OBL.
We cannot reduce terrorism to 0. We can only reduce the incidents by Intelligence and security measures.
If someone is interested in causing mayhem and is willing to sac. his/her life for this, they likely will be successful.
But this gets into root causes which I asked earlier, why do they hate Americans to such an extent?
Jobber, did the invasion of Iraq radicalize some folks? Perhaps. But any form of combatting terrorism (or Baathism, for that matter) will rally some people on that legendary boulevard, the ‘Arab street’, against the West.
We pursued a different course in the ’80s and ’90s, didn’t we? The Beirut bombing, WTC I, the African embassy bombings, Khobar, the USS Cole… How did that turn out?
The distinction between Vietnam and Iraq is that a viable, democratic political process is underway in the latter.
OK, Jobber, here’s the one thing the US can do to exempt itself from terrorism: sell the Israelis down the river. Sick of roadside bombs and RPGs? You want a magic bullet? Voila….
Tom, we, no one really knows enough about them. How many people BECAME violent like that do to the invasion of Iraq by Bush. I say invasion, bec. there was no world sanction of doing this.
When the US acts like a bully, it is going to hit some people’s buttons. Why they are willing to die and to kill civilians is an outgrowth.
Probably some would go home, some would linger on. It is a situation that we are responsible for, the fact that they entered the country to fight us, now they are there, go and figure out who is who. So we created a mess there.
I think that we opened a second front when we should have been focusing on getting OBL and really defeating them there in Afghanistan/Pakistan. What were these guys doing before this Iraq war, beheading their friends for fun?
My instinct is that we should leave, admit the mistake, and stop the losses. We can’t fight these type of terrorists, we should have learnt this in Vietnam. THe only way to win would be to bomb the place to the stone age but no one will do that. The place meaning figure out where the majority of these insurgents are and blow the area.
Elon– good post, bravo!
I’ll give you a perfect score for artistic impression. But .5 for technical merit. (A figure-skating reference, meant to float the boat of our friend from the frozen North, Middleman.)
I agree it’s important to address the root causes of terrorism . Our much-abused incumbent president seeks to do just that, however fitfully, by promoting Arab democracy. There’s much to re-examine and correct in our (i.e., the US’s and the West’s) traditional policies toward Arabs and Muslims. Our support for the likes of the Saudi ruling clique, for example, is a scandal.
Now, having said that, the reasoning you display has had the real-world result of paralyzing the West in mistaken notions of moral equivalence between its misdeeds and those of the likes of bin Laden. The relativist mentality and guilt-mongering characteristic of the Western Left have crippled its response to terrorism. The Israelis are its favorite pawns in this moral-equavalence game: the settlements are wrong, so how can one truly feel outrage at just another suidice bombing?
There’s a real reluctance among pomo, bien-pensant Western intellectuals to form moral judgments about anything. This is why the American public held its nose and re-elected Bush. There are times when moral clarity is required. This is one of them.
I’ll concede that the Nazi example is flawed in one respect: the Nazis practiced official, state terrorism. After January 30, 1933, that is. You might want to review the history of, for example, the SA in the ’20s. Or, take a look at the murder of Walter Rathenau. And examine the response of Weimar democracy to these events. I think you’ll conclude the Nazis’ innovations spanned jet aircraft, ground-to-ground missiles, Zyklon B, and– yes– terrorism.
Can “military might” ALONE defeat terrorism? Manifestly not. (Who takes such a position?) Did “military might” end racism during the Civil War? The military is one tool in the struggle, but an important one. Think Afghanistan is better off today than a decade ago?
Jobber, let me ask you this: if the US left Iraq tomorrow, would all the terrorists go home, their aims met, to till their fields, never to make trouble again?
(Finally, a footnote. I regret my comments yesterday making fun of the French. But I can’t resist this: Google “french military victories,” then click on the first item that pops up.)
Terrorism will not end. Of course we have to fight it, but we are fighting it the wrong way.
We have to fight fire w/ fire.
If not they will continue to do what they did today.
The campaign is Iraq is a disaster, because it added a new massive activist segment of person. It galvanized various muslimes. Now that is because, they live under crooked regimes, and find a solace in the warmth of the religious instructors in their mosques. Except that Bush thought that he would introduce Democracy into a place where there had been a brutal dictator except he forgot that they hate Americans more.
Why do they hate Americans?
Elon I think its quite clear what terrorism is when a man with a missle launcher lets the military jeep go by and shoots at the school bus that is a terrorist, when a soldier goes mad and shoots civilians that is called a massacre. Terrorism is violence against citizens, women and children because it hurts more, and because they cant fight against the stronger military. In other words yeah we (Terrorists) lost a war, so what, we can still blow up your family if you don’t do what we want.
Tom- Explain how dealing with the root cause of a problem (an ideology in this case) somehow is equitable to making an excuse? Puh-lease! If you read my original post, you would actually see that I was not and am not making an excuse for terrorists, their ideology, or their actions. What I am doing is suggesting a way to combat the ideology instead of combating nothing more than its symptoms. If you have allergies, you take medicine to combat the symptoms of your allergies and the symptoms disappear temporarily, but guess what you still have allergies and will continue to have them until you find a way to eliminate them.
In other news your Nazi example is poor at best, since the Nazis hardly had to practice their ideology inconspicuously for fear of retribution; Germany became a Nazi state, it was the representation of the Nazi ideology. If all the radical Islamic fundamentalists were to all get together and create a nation, a state to do the same, we could more effectively and aggressively combat them militarily but as it stands al-qaeda and other radical Islamic fundamentalist organizations don’t really give us that pleasantry, but with every attack on Muslims, terrorists or not, they are able to recruit more members all over the world. Not to mention, Nazism was hardly as passionately embraced by the average German as radical Islamic fundamentalism is by those that subscribe to it. As it stands there is no possible way to combat radical Islamic fundamentalism by means of military might. We defeated the evil Iraqi and Afghani states; remind me, has radical Islamic fundamentalism disappeared?
There is hardly anything sensible about joining the Republican Party as long as this Administration is in charge of it. There is hardly anything sensible about this Administration. So everyone, please print Tom’s post, read it a few times and have a good cry when you realize that our President thinks the same way.
Uh, Daniel, Tom doesn’t speak Hebrew.
Esther, you are missed!
Ok that’s it.. anyone who wants to let the middle east devolve into chaos remember that you probably have family there. I do. We all want peace. We all want to just go to work every day. But there are people with guns and bombs trying to kill us for no other reason than we are not like them. No name calling changes that.
Run away from Iraq, run away from everything, and soon you’ll be back against the wall wondering why we gave it all away.
I prefer that rome does not burn in a day, So I’ll take the idiots running the world today over the prospect of chickens running the world tomorrow. America invaded Iraq. America wants to win the war on terror. Some decisions are just not pretty. That’s the way it is.
And Tom, when the Dems figure that out, they’ll have their President.
Hug to Esther. Jewish Mother made me do it. Psalms 23, yeah.
gam ki elech b’gei tzalmavet, lo ira ra ki atta imadi
Elon, the root-cause excuse is just that, an excuse, and a way sophisticated, refined Westerners avoid having to make (heaven forfend!) moral judgments.
Thw world is awash with people with wholly legitimate grievances– but they hardly justify deliberate murder of non-combatants. Or create a nimbus of impenetrable moral ambiguity around such murders.
Fighting an “ideology” has a way of requiring fighting “a people.” Sorry to have to play the Nazi card, but Hitler and his movement had plenty of grievances, too. Their ideology had to be taken down the hard way. Sorry about Fallujah, too, but as I understand it, its residents are happy that the US military brought them some relief from the (yes) terrorists in their midst.
So, everyone, print out Elon’s post, read it first thing tomorrow morning, drop by your local city or town hall, and do the sensible thing– join the Republican Party.
I am going to carry baby-wipes in a small travel pack, a dust mask, clear plastic goggles you use when doing carpentry, a water bottle and maybe a plastic rain poncho if it not too heavy. All that stuff is very cheap.
We should have all that stuff at home and stout shoes and socks, and knit watch caps. And some cash.
I carried the book of the Psalms with me today. Fortunately I know the 23rd by heart. I am going to memorize a few more, without a vow.
Will you all please marry each other already? Esther needs a hug for starters.
Elon, it’s actually simple. If you want to bash the guys who do the bidding of liberal democracies that are strongly reigned in by the separation of powers, ethical, and giving their lives, then maybe we should all jump into cattle cars. WE ARE ALIVE because some fights need to be fought. This fight is one of them. Terrorism has to end, and calling names doesn’t stop the fact that we’re being bombed.
Maybe, I’m missing something here, but you’re “saying that you’d prefer that the Taliban keep oppressing women and Saddam keep gassing kurds? ”
Josh, I am speaking as an American citizen, for the American common person. You have a country that is going downhill. Sorry Josh, I don’t believe in Politicians, certainly not in Bush.
You have an America that is losing its economic power, its ability to provide jobs and a standard of living for its citizens. So they make a war in Iraq, which costs how many billions? and has killed close to 2 thousands of the finest people America produces, and caused the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s, w/ no end in sight.
Quite frankly, I care more about the poverty that has been hoisted on my ass, and that of the millions of Americans, than I care about the Iraqis’ under Saddam, who it appears were better off than they are now. It may change for the better there, but I would not hold your breath.
At the same time, we didn’t finish the job in Afghanistan, did you see the paper today, another American soldier killed, a boy from Long Island, NY…
And Bush was supposed to accomplish what w/ his war in Iraq?
Prevent terrorism? Or have you forgotten, the many Al Kiada acts of terrorism worldwise since his war. Or do you only care if it happens in AMerica or at our staunch ally, the great British?
Daniel- That’s exactly my friend’s point, does putting on a uniform exclude you from committing acts of terrorism? Haven’t uniformed soldiers killed civilians intentionally? Isn’t it the intention of the soldiers given the orders, to kill?
We may believe that the uniform seperates “them” from “us” but does that make it so? How come? Why can’t the U.N. decide on a definition of terrorism? Could it be that it’s just a bit more nuanced then we are willing to admit?
Listen, i understand your rage, like i said i was furious when my friend even dared to suggest these things, but seriously what differentiates the actions of some modern militaries from terrorist groups? I’m still trying to find an answer to those questions i listed above too, so don’t think i’m taking an absolute stance.
My bottom line is….all of this death and suffering breaks my heart and just fucking hurts me. I wish I could find some optimism Daniel, I really do but it’s becoming increasingly difficult to do so.
little woolf: what is your point? By senselessly patronising me you don’t make your point any more valid, if valid at all. You say it as if an attack is a good thing ‘as it has woken people up’. Believe me, it has been hanging in the air. there is nothing good about an attack.
Michael: you are right now that you made it more precise. I never said either that israelis are colonists. I said that some people don’t make the difference between jews living in the diaspora as citizens of their countries and what israelis colonists are (like on the gaza strip). TO do that is dumb and we should just be aware of not doing the same towards arabs.
Elon… How can I do this without swearing? *Sigh*… Terrorists don’t wear uniforms, that’s what makes them terrorists. Terrorists kill civilians intentionally, that’s what makes them terrorists. It’s the uniform that we believe in, that separates them from us! We believe in THIS dialogue. We believe in PEACEFUL protest. We believe in FREEDOM.
Dude, we live life by a longer stick. We all should.
We need to be optimistic, but not stupidly or blindly optimistic. Optimism will get us through times like these.
jews will be blamed even if nothing happens! it s obviously jews’ fault that nothing happpens, no?
i m asking b/c i dont really know, has 9/11 created/increased american solidarity with israel?
Man, i’m gonna get my head taken off by some folks for this one but i’m just so tired of all this i have to say something.
First, let me preface my statement by saying that this attack in London is AWFUL. That should go without saying.
However, i was talking to a very dear Iranian born friend of mine about Iran one day and I was condemning the IRI for being one of the worlds top sponsors of terrorism, since historically they have had their hands in just about all of it since 1979. He said “ok, fine, i agree, i’m not going to excuse the Islamic Reupblic of Iran (he left Iran to escape the revolutionary govt.), but what is terrorism? I mean, we talk about wars on terrorism, but isn’t the U.S. obliterating Fallujah terrorism? Or does someone have to not be wearing a uniform for it to be terrorism? The U.N. can’t even decide on a definition of terrorism for this very reason, so what is terrorism.”
I was so furious. I didn’t even know what to say to him, but partly because he was at least a little bit correct. There are very few nations who have not in some sense of the word committed acts of terrorism against others.
It pains me, all of it, I just wonder where my tears were for the innocents all over the world who are victims of terror that don’t make it on the BBC or CNN…and that pains me more. This is so complex; placating terrorists is not the answer, but i’m sorry grace as we’ve learned committing organized acts of “terrorism” against them and the innocents whose lives they infiltrate is also not the answer. We should not be fighting a people, we should be fighting an ideology, actually in my opinion two ideologies; fanatic islamic fundamentalism and to a lesser extent uneven development. We have a few options, first we can try to eliminate every person who holds the first ideology, and every person who may theoritcally carry on the tradition of that ideology. Secondly we can eliminate the root problems, not the symptoms, the roots of that ideology. I’m not claiming this is easy but i feel we have to start.
You know, i love the west wing, i do and the best episode maybe ever to me is “hartsfield’s landing” and there is a quote i’d like to share. Pres. Bartlett is being accused by his aid of downplaying his intelligence and Bartlett says:
“. . . . If a guy is a good neighbor, if he puts in a day, if every once in a while he laughs, if every once in a while he thinks about somebody else and above all else if he can find his way to compassion and tolerance then he’s my brother and I don’t give a damn if he didn’t get past finger painting. What I can’t stomach are people who are out to convince people that the educated are soft and privileged and out to make them feel like they are less than, you know, ‘He may be educated but I am plain-spoken like you.’ Especially when we know that education can be the silver bullet. . . . for crime, poverty, unemployment, drugs, hatred.”
I think that might be the place to start, in the west, but especially in the middle east and south east asia…but anyhow i’m rambling now a bit. I’m just so tired of the constant killing of innocent people, it weighs heavily on me and i feel helpless, and i needed an outlet for that.
I don’t think this is going to create any british solidarity with israel. On the contrary I think many british citizens are going to blame israel for these attacks today. Ironic considering britian is largely responsible for the political econonic and demographic problems of the middle east
Winston Churchill was marginalized until proven right. The nazi’s lost because Brittain woke up from the appeasement dream. History repeating?
Middle, Britain’s the former colonial oppressor of us all.
Having said that, they hate the French- referred to by my aforementioned London friend Simon as, “the old enemy.”
Not losing sight of the good guys as far as being allies of the US. Don’t forget, also, that many of us here are from Canada and therefore owe our table manners to the British Empire.
As far as their being allies of Israel, I’m afraid the picture is much more nuanced – and I’m being polite here. Hamas is the same as Hizbollah is the same as Al Qaeda. Sadly, the British (and other Western Europeans) don’t always see it that way.
Livingstone’s a goof, but a marginal figure– thanks to Tony Blair.
Hey, the Brits are the good guys, let’s not lose sight of that.
Just so we’re clear. Ken Livingstone, mayor of London, has condemned this attack.
He is the same bloke who invited Sheikh Youssef Qaradawi to speak in London. Qaradwi, in the words of Islam Online:
He defended his support for “martyrdom operations” against Israeli forces, who are occupying Palestinian lands for more than 50 years and prevent the return of Palestinians to their homeland.
Livingstone, a veteran Labor member, said he endorsed many of Qaradawi’s views on Israel .
“You are not unanimously welcomed here today. In this, you are not alone. People who raise awkward truths are often like this,” said Livingstone.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-07/08/article03.shtml
Today, AP reported the following:
{Livingstone called the attack] “mass murder” carried out by terrorists bent on “indiscriminate…slaughter.”
“This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty or the powerful … it was aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners.”
I wonder if in his petty little mind he is able to differentiate his support of terror in Israel from his condemnation of this attack.
————–
My heartfelt sympathies to the victims of this attack and their families. Nobody except for terrorists deserve to have this happen to them, certainly not innocent civilians.
What’s in France that you want? I want the fusion reactor. But why not invade somewhere like micronesia. They love Israelis. It would be more of a vacation invasion. We come, to
invade youhide from the disengagement plan. Oranges anyone?I sent a message to my friend Simon in London at 5:30 am Boston time, inquiring whether he was safe.
The full text of his response:
“All is safe here – we should invade France immediately”
Let’s hand over Manchester. That should stop the bombing.
Good grief, what is it going to take for people to realize that placating terrorists will just get you more terrorists?
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! Senseless, needless death. 🙁
Maybe we shd all say some tehilim… And i was having a good day 🙁
May the victims who live be comforted by freedom, and may the victims who died be close to hashem. Though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me.
jobber,
I’m sorry that you’re ignorant.
I’m sorry that you actually believe that despair causes people to massacre non-combattants. It’s long been proven a myth.
Maybe, I’m missing something here, but you’re saying that you’d prefer that the Taliban keep oppressing women and Saddam keep gassing kurds?
Did I say Al Qaeda suicide bombers were the same as Palestinians? No. Alow me rewrite your equation:
Fucked-up Al-Qaeda suicide bombers = the same as fucked up Palestinian suicide bombers.
And since when are Israelis “colonists”?
dwash:
Now they know, in case they had forgotten since the cease fire, what a terrorist attach is like?
Apparently that was just to simple for you to understand.
I have the solution, lets placate to their demands and give them a nice city to live in near/around london, at a great cost and expense to the people of England
Personally, I don’t care to debate which group of people who kill civilians to effect political change is better than which other group of people who kill civilians to effect political change. Killing=bad. I edited a book on Al Qaeda, and those guys are everywhere. And they’re all united in their hatred for the American Zionist threat. In London, the group that took responsibility (but the facts are not yet confirmed that they are responsible) talked about freeing the UK from the Zionist government. Let us not think that this is about the war in Iraq…
The instinct to turn people who think, feel, love act, write and do, who have souls and aspirations, into limp, numb, emptied bodies is something that my brain can never understand.
I’m feeling the need to go hug a tree. Or a stranger. Maybe I’ve been living in NY too long.
As someone who’s living in London, this is something that we’ve been expecting for quite a while. Maybe it will serve to wake the naive Brits up to the fact that cozying up to the Arabs is a waste of time.
How tragic a lesson to learn.
Another reason why Bush’s war sucks. It solved nothing, and maybe made new terrorists out of guys who weren’t before.
Is there an answer to this sort of calamity?
What would a massive retaliation accomplish?
There is a distinction between this and Palestinians. I really don’t think these people are humans anymore. If you destroyed their hometowns for example, it would mean nothing to them. But it seems to me the Palestinian suicide bomber, he has concern for his village.
Now you know WHAT?
now you do the same as those Palestine supporters do: jews= the same as israeli colonists,
f*cked up al quaeida suiciders= the same as palestinians. And what is the point of that?
I still believe in discussion and not polarising everything. Every attack is cruel and horrible and as far as I can I sympatise with the victims.
oi sou do brazil e vivo em sao paulo..sou judia…
fico horririzada com esses atos terroristas.
o mnundo deveria destruir esses arabes terroristas…jogando uma bomba em cima de cada um deles…
I’m reading the CNN coverage…
“The blasts caused chaos and panic across the city, with dazed and bloodied survivors emerging from stations. The mobile phone network was overloaded, and many struggled to let others know that they were safe.”
It’s horrible, but there’s a small part of me that wants to say to every Brit who routinely delegitimizes Israel and supports Palestinian terror, “Now you know.”
But still. Love to Britain and the British right now.