This is merely an update. Ms. Grish, author of ‘Boy Vey’ and shiskeh connoisseur of Jewish Men heard Muffti’s lame pre-acceptance of a date. Sadly, Muffti was rebuffed, albeit in a most charming and graceful manner. Still, despite her sensitivity, he is left a shell of a man. Oh well. Muffti will always have his dreams, where the elusive and attractive shikseh is all his.
Leilah tov.
“Oh boy! Sleep! That’s where I’m a Viking!” – Ralph Wiggum
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So, Schmo, you are saying that you cannot even trust an Orthodox Beit Din, right?
I heard this from someone leaning in Lakewood for many years.
I heard this from someone leaning in Lakewood for many years.
There are many people who come up with all sorts of lines of thought Jobber. Just because a Rabbi, even an Orthodox one, says something doesn’t necessarily make it correct. If they made the wrong decision its really unfortunate but it is still a mistake.
In this case I believe its a mistake and many others believe that too.
Ephraim, in some circles, there is a a line of thought that most of the Kohanim are along the lines of a Safek, w/ the exception of one or two family names. Those are considered closest to the real deal, so it would seem to me that there is much room for such leniency w/ respect to some of the nooks and crannies.
Leniency is great. We must have more.
No, the way I understood it is that since the family had been secular for so long, there was a doubt as to whether he was actually a kohen.
Here’s a question for the crowd: How come eveyrone wants to allow the aguna to marry and PRODUCE MAMAZARIM, because of the EVIL RABBIS…
But when it comes to the Cohen marrying a divorcee EVERYONE’S MAD AT THE RABBIS FOR BEING SO LENIENT?????? Hmmmm?????
Wait a minnit!
Are you saying that a kohen is no longer a kohen when he is secular? Are you saying he can’t purifiy himself?
Ultimately humans decide their own moral codes. That is why there is such strife w/ Orthodoxy by many. There is so much hypocracy that one sees amongst Orthodox, or those who wear the clothes.
That one doesn’t understand, why he cannot live by his own moral code, in just one little area for example. People, friends, change and come and go.
SPECULATION ALERT
While I am not privy to the details of the Jewpanese/kohen case, the few discussions I did have about it gave me to understand that while this particular family believed that they were kohanim, they had been secular for so long that there was a serious question as to whether they were, indeed, kohanim at all any more. I presume that the Beit Din rendered its decision based on these considerations and came to the conclusion that the man in question, while Jewish, was not really a kohen.
You see it is the malicious hateful behavior that ultimately makes people not interested in the full frum life anymore.
Listen Schmo, I already “paid”. My Black Hat Ex put me through HELL. The rest of my time here on Earth is one “get out of HELL” FREE card. I obey God’s Law, it’s man’s law and how man interprets God’s Law that I have trouble with.
Um, Schmoe also believes some of us here are Destroyers of Judaism ™ and that Israel should become a religious totalitarian Jewish state. Jus’ pointin’ out some facts.
ybocher- yeah, ahavas chinam and all that – JUST GET ME THE CRYSTAL METH!!! I’LL BE BACK TO NORMAL IN NO TIME!!!!
jsirpico! I just wanted to tell you that I am so impressed by you actually taking time to have a peacful discussion with other people here. Being polite and … kol hakavod. Although I was always big fan of you telling “truth at all cost” … I am not the fan of the means but rather of your complete dedication to your believes ( and I do know it s a mask and you really very loving and caring guy)… but today I am even happier to see the calm side of jsirpico.
Joe- don’t you realize by now, that true halacha is never black and white in the sense that every case needs to be adjudicated according to its particulars???
So yes, duh, a cohen may not marry a divorcee or a woman, these days, whose been with a goy…but in the particular case of a given Cohen, the din for him may in fact be different. There may be room to be matir yes. Yes, of course his kids would be challalim – but it may be that the case will turn out that what Hashem wants is this person to be married, to be mkayim pru urvu, to raise Jewish kids, even challalim, because that’s more important now than his lineage as a Cohen…
Truth (and maturity, by the way) is deciding not between what’s important and not important, but what’s important and what’s more important!
I can’t believe I’m having to sound so reasonable, but I can guarantee you – you don’t know what you’re talking about with regard to why I am confident that it is indeed possible to be matir in some cases a Cohen marrying a woman who is “not fitting for a Cohen.”
So can we dispense with the simple minded black and white I know Rav Feinstein garbage, please?
I told you that I can’t judge without details – all I can do is tell you what I was taught regarding similar cases with the details you disclosed.
Are you a posek, Joe? If not, I think you should not adjudicate cases in absentia, especially since you don’t know any of the details.
Listen jsirp and Ephraim I don’t know aboiut your specific cases becasue you are providing no details but I can tell you what I learnt and also what I was told regarding similiar cases and that is that the children are Halallim and they should get divorced.
Shtark is nice but pretty irrelevant to this conversation. Isn’t it?
I give both of you respect. Its pretty sad when people are matir in cases like this where to most people including me it seems pretty black and white the other way. I’m sure there were people matir since I have no reason to doubt you. Its unfortunate that I can’t go against what I know to be correct. Very sad indeed.
It would be wise to let this Rav know what Rabbi Feinstein told me about this type of case- when it came up for reasons of Shidduchim. Maybe the Rav would be more careful about these things or at least look into what I’m saying.
Which person are you talking about, Joe?
I assume you are talking about the questionable Cohen. If so, the giyoret involved is pretty shtark. I am sure that the Beit Din which gave them the heter was on the up and up.
Joe Schmo! Your name fits your blog…Listen…The Rav is a major Chareidi Rav. A young posek. I don’t want to mention his name, because, yes – there is a chance that it’s being quoted out of context.
Yes – it’s forbidden L’chatchila! But I know of cases where it’s come up and people – serious people, okay…were matir.
I know the verse. Jsirp is not stupid, you know!
And my ears weren’t hearing things and believe me believe me believe me, the Rav I’m referring to is as legit as legit can be – close to Rav Elisashiv and completely kosher v’yasher..
WHAT’S A GUY GOTTA DO TO GET A LITTLE RESPECT AROUND HERE????
OK jsirpicco you don’t want to say which Rav – whatever.
I know the law and
Rav David Feinstein said that it is forbidden.
I’d ‘love’ to hear who it is so I can look into it.
Nevertheless I know that it is forbidden and it doesn’t really matter what some character says if it directly xontradicts the Torah.
Here you go:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0321.htm
Leviticus “21,7 They shall not take a woman that is a harlot, or profaned; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband; for he is holy unto his God. ”
Hey Chutzpah thats OK you don’t want to obey G-d’s law.
As long as you know that you will pay for it.
Ephraim I would not suggest anyone marry that person.
that’s also a factor – most poskim won’t hold of Cohen status for secular people….so yeah, it could have worked out that way, too…
Now people will complain that the Rabbis don’t accept Cohanim!
Shouldn’t that be spelled “Jewdiciously”?
I’m not a posek, Muffti. It’s just my take on it. If the putatively “bad” Jews have an effect on Am Israel, then so do the putatively “good” ones.
I know a Cohen who married a Japanese giyoret (who was miles more frum than he was, BTW: she’s the only reason he’s observant today).
I am not sure of how the beit Din came to its decision, but he got a heter to marry her, the reason being, as I understand it, that his family had been secular for so long that there were doubts about the validity of his status as a Cohen.
well, not quite. it’s more complicated than just…oh, he’s cute and supposedly will make a lot of money, duh!
Chuztpaleh, you’re problem is that you never became a “mekabel.” Your Judaism has essentially been “your way,” since the get go…even if you were super frum for a while there…it was all really YOU…not what the good Rabbis and Rebbetzins at Neve were trying to teach you…
Wanna know their first lesson: Know thyself and choose Judiciously! That’s what Rebbetzin Feldman used to tell my wife – You have to Know yourself, know who you are….etc.
And then, yes, believe it or not, when Rav Refson met me, as my wifes “chosson” he told her: You have chosen judiciously…
See? You should have said yes to that second date at the King Solomon hotel…you’d be happy with me now!
True. I wouldn’t listen to any Rav at this point who wouldn’t let me be a witness or grant me equal access to the Jewish Judicial system because of my anatomy.
When I was first becoming a ba’las tshuva someone wanted to fix me up with a Cohen who was a Periodontist (do you have any idea how much money periodontists make?!) and I stupidly admitted that I lost my viriginity to my Italian High School Boyfriend because I was so spiritually sincere, but boy did that “UNFIT” label hurt.
Now as a divorced woman I don’t have to admit my adventures with non-jews, only my stupidity at not marrying the Cohen Periodontist.
If the Cohen of my current desires ever got hit by lightening and decided he wanted to marry me and make little Hallels I’d say yes in a minute. And I think G-d would say “nish kafalach” like my Grandmother Chutzpah used to say …”it’s not so terrible”.
Joe Schmo – trust me, the Rav is big and no phoney. Please. I don’t want to argue that.
Now, in the name of clarification…I can’t say that it was a divorcee, actually. But it was DEFINITELY a woman who was not “fitting for a Cohen,” and would and did nulify his status as a Cohen – that is true. Not as a Jew, but as a Cohen.
I heard the Rav I’m referring to remark more or less as follows: Let them get married and Hashem will be mochel – i.e., that in this day and age, it is better for someone to get married, to a Jew, raise the kids as frum Jews, etc. than to live alone.
I did clarify that this may not apply in every case, obviously, and that people would have to check…but your blanket statement that it’s better not to marry is well, not accurate.
And please please please do not suggest that Jsirpicco doesn’t know a competant Poseik when he sees one. I do. And he is. And you still have to check in each case.
Meanwhile – Chutzpah doesn’t really care anyway. She just wants some.
jsirpicco,
Which great Rav?
Please. Hashem will not be Mochel neither the one who marries nor this Rav.
BTW the children of such a marriage are not just ‘unfit for the third temple’ they are Hallalim who pass on that Hallal status to their children – they are not cohanim and not yisraelim but hallalim.
A divorcee marrying a Cohen is like a Jew marrying a mamzer. Each one’s imperfection is retained for generations.
I’d like to talk to this Rabbi, maybe he can enlighten me on where my mistake is- if there is such a Rabbi.
Schmo & Sirp,
Thanks anyway but I was just fantasizing. The Cohen of my desires is busy chasing shiksas and at 38 is not ready to get married for another 10 years anyway, but he lets me utilize his gorgeous circumsized tool every 6 months if I stalk him enough. Yeah, jewish guys are hot.
Ephraim, that’s interesting because one would think that it would be a basic numbers game. Say that we found that on the whole, apikorasim like me tended to raise li’l apikorises at a rate of 2:1. If apikorases make for trouble overall for the jewish community (Muffti assumes you meant more trouble than good), then you would think it better for us atheists NOT to reproduce since there will be more harm than good, no?
Not that I want to help Chuztpah, but TRUTH MUST BE SAID: I have heard directly from a great Rav -that if really it comes down to it – she can marry the Cohen…the language I heard him use was: Hashem will be Mochel….(he’ll forgive)
now – it doesn’t mean you go out and directly seek a Cohen. It means if it works out that this is a match, and they’ve been having trouble finding someone, etc. that yes, better to marry than to hold by maintaining Kehuna
of course, if it really comes down to it, you should ask your local Rabbi – one you trust, who knows you, your situation, etc.
Don’t blame me if you go to the wrong Rav!
Chitzpah,
It is better that the divorcee not marry and not have the kids.
Of course its best to marry one she is allowed to and have the kids.
It is actually a very good question, Muffti. It is axiomatic in religious circles that all Jews are responsible for one another and that the misbehavior of some has a deleterious effect on the rest of the community (and vice-versa). This, of course, is the reason that we are such nudges who cannot leave other Jews in peace to whatever it is they want.
So, ideally, there should be a lot of Jews all of whom are good. This is impossible, so to be realistic I would go for having as many Jews as possible in the hope that most of them will grow up to be menschen.
Since we are playing “is it better”…is it better for a Jewish woman who is a divorced to marry a Cohen and raise 5 kids who can’t serve in the 3rd Temple or not marry him and not have the 5 Jewish babies?
You have mostly good Jews anyways. In the Diaspora, very few serial killers, same in Israel. Well there the army situation has an effect on people, whether or not they go. Everyone has to deal more w/ violence, death, tragedy. But even so, is there such a massive murderous population per capita?
Basically Crime does not pay, I believe most people get that idea and play by the rules, and in many cases, take it farther, as in Chessed projcts in all spheres of Jews, religious, secular, etc…
Muffti really meant it, Ephraim. But you were giving full size heapings of credit that day, so he doesn’t feel too bad. Were Muffti’s kids to grow up and be good jews, he wouldn’t be dissapointed. Nor is he dissapointed in the rest of you for believing in things that Muffti finds to be absurd.
The reason Muffti was asking was because he wasn’t sure whether or not it was better to have few good jews than many bad jews. (i.e. do the bad jews ruin the party for the good ones?) Is that really such a stupid question?!?
If that is a straight question, I guess you really meant it when you said you were not as clever as I gave you credit for, Muffti.
Some of the kids of the rotten-to-the-core atheists will wind up disappointing their parents by becoming good Jews later in life. This often happens to people who never expected such a development. I am a prime example of this.
For this to happen, however, there must be Jews. And so Jews should marry and have kids, whatever their religious affiliation or lack thereof.
Pretty clear, I thought. But glad you liked the story. I thought it was pretty good, too. At least you got the reference, which is something.
dont worry muffti when you become (jewish) dr grand muffti no shiksa will say no to you. just remember to keep that “ph” well hidden.
but remember that you ll also appear on the radar screen of every jewish mother, dr!
dont worry muffti when you become (jewish) dr grand muffti no shiksa will say no to you. just remember to keep that “ph” well hidden.
but remember that you ll also appear on the radar screen of every jewish mother, dr!
Ephraim: Muffti sees. So better that there be more Jewish kids, even if their parents are rotten to the core atheists.
Muffti has aboslutely no idea what your story meant but it sounded good. Does the Pintel Yid mug the homourg wearing stick guy? Or does Jeeves save him?
Ybocher, Muffti isn’t sure. Probably Dr. Grand Muffti will do.
muffti so when you get your ph d you gonna drop “grand” and just be dr. muffti ro muffti ph d?
Muffti:
Jews, of whatever persuasion, should marry other Jews and have as many kids as possible. Some will grow up frum. Some will grow up as apikorsim or tinok s’nishba (as did yours truly).
However, some of these kids will be biffing jauntily along the boulevard one day, whistling a tune with their homburg perched rakishly on the side of the head, twirling the old walking stick, tipping their hat to the ladies, patting passing children on the head, smelling the flowers, and in general feeling all boomps-a-daisy (as Bertie Wooster would say) when all of a sudden WHANNNGGG!!! they will get blindsided by the Pintele Yid who has been lurking in the metaphorical alley, waiting for another unsuspecting victim. (Not to brag, but this puts me in the august company of R. Akiva, among others.)
You gotta hit for average, Muffti. You can’t be swinging for the fences all the time.
Oh yeah, and Cali will have to wait for Muffti. Dissertation writing is prohibiting much travel for the purposes of religion and vacation. When are YOU going to come to NJ?
No problem, Rabbi Yonah. Though, Muffti has a question about dogma: from a O point of view, is it better for a jewish
apikoresatheist to have kids or to refrain?And Muffti has been tracking down the citations you gave him. Sorry he hasn’t gotten back to you to discuss because he has some thoughts.
Don’t know about the Muffti’s plans, but the Esther, she is making a westward plan this week…and the winery (and maybe Long Beach) are on her list for visits…
unless Stiller suddenly went frum, she didn’t have an Orthodox conversion.
Thank you for resting my mind at ease. You are going to make a great Jewish dad. I will try to reactivate my funny bone, but I confess, this is a tough week for the klal. forgive me if I take everything at face value.
BTW when are you coming to cali for another visit?
skip the mojitos and come down to the herzog winery here in cali.
we checked out last week and if not for the fact that they serve only wine (no beer 🙁 ) it is a great place.
I had a blueberry mojito once. Pretty darned good, I have to say.
And Ephraim? I feel ya. Believe me.
Yeesh. Such comments on what was basically a joke post. Forbidden fruit, escaping Yiddish parenthood and yetzer hora! Relax all y’all! Muffti was just impressed that KG took the time to charmingly turn down Muffti’s acceptance of a date that was never offered! He’s slowly recovering from the rebuffing, and apparently big brother CK has managed to hook up mojito drinking sometime soon.
However, kudos to shmuel and ephraim in particular for some really funny comments. Intermedia dating. Brilliant.
And Rabbi Yonah, with all due respect (and Muffti hopes you know he thinks there is much due), where did you get the bit about escaping jewish parenthood? Nonetheless, Muffti is sorry that he made you sad.
Oh yeah: Jon Stewart is a funny man and he jokes about his Jewliciousness all the time, but when the rubber met the road, it’s pretty clear that it really didn’t mean that much to him, after all.
And before I forget: Quinlin Dempsey Stiller?
I mean, is nothing sacred?
Thnx, Anissa.
While I know that TM will probably get his knickers all in a twist, since I’m Orthodox, do you know if she had an Orthodox conversion?
Of course, the point is completely moot, since all that effort was wasted, seeing as how Ben went whoring after the daughters of Moab anyway.
Can I help that I am sad at reading your desire to escape Jewish parenthood? The yetzer hora has a hold on you brother and it is much deeper than some search for the elusive shiksa.
Ephraim ..She was raised Catholic, but converted to Judaism six years after marrying Stiller.
Curse the lack of Preview on Jelicious!
What I meant so say was “none of the frisson of the verboten“
hey muffti, maybe this is just another reason why muffti should make alyiah!?
I heard that Ben Stiller’s mother isn’t a MOT. Anybody know for sure?
Muffti, if you’re really that hung up on forbidden fruit, what you need to do is to go after some of the hot shiksa converts. They’re out there. But you’d have to go to shul to find them.
If you hook up with one of them, then you can have your shiksa and, um…..
But then, of course, there is none of the of the verboten, which is what this is all about, anyway.
Of course, if you really want to go that way, it sounds like Tom has a pretty good approach.
Oh ck to the rescue. As always. Muffti and Ms. Grish will be meeting shortly for… get this… blackberry mojitos! Who even knew such a thing existed??
Hmm, maybe I’ll ask her out, and you can show up. If it takes a Cyrano, so be it.
(BTW, if you’re gonna go the shiksa route, why not check out blondes– the real, not bottled, kind?)
Muffti– such a quick acceptance of defeat! P
Persistence is what’s needed. Perhaps you think admitting employing a “lame” strategy will be enough to earn the pity and, perhaps, the affection of Ms. Grish. Too clever by half, pal.
Time to show some sack.
Well, mufti, it’s obvious why she didn’t pursue a relationship with you.
You’re from two different worlds.
She’s a columnist for a magazine, and you’re an amateur blogger. Apparently she’s against intermedia dating.
Sorry. For all those dying to know, the baby’s name is Quinlin Dempsey Stiller.
Sorry, GM. I’m a little perturbed by the name he chose.
And coming clean, It wasn’t just Ben Stiller.
Maybe it’s a little pathetic that even my celebrity crushes are Jews. Sigh.
TM, she seems to like Jewlicious quite a bit. And the funny thing is that Muffti worked really hard to make sure there were no spelling mistakes. She’s a total sweetheart, however. Thanks for the sympathy though. You are a good friend (unlike that snarky, ‘let-us-make-this-about-me-and-ben-stiller’ Esther. Speakingof which, you gave Ben Stiller a romantic shout out? *shudder*)
I can’t believe you actually expect us to feel sorry for you that this one particular non-Jewess shot you down. I mean, it’s not like you’re trapped in an ivory tow–oops. And now, thanks to her, you don’t believe in G-d–oops again. I mean, that’s like me posting that I’m upset that Ben Stiller didn’t respond to my romantic shoutout in the Jewish Journal and instead had a goyishe baby with his wife. (Grr.)
I don’t understand what she rejected. Do you have a profile somewhere that might have tipped her off? Was it that she assumes that people studying to be professors may be, um, financially challenged in the future? Was it the out of focus shot of you in the About Us section? Was it your dorky spelling? Does she simply dislike Jewlicious?
Sheesh, my heart goes out to you.