Excerpt from Bush’s speech to the Heritage Foundation on November 1, 2007:
We must take the words of the enemy seriously. The terrorists have stated their objectives. They intend to build a totalitarian Islamic empire — encompassing all current and former Muslim lands, stretching from Europe to North Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. In pursuit of their imperial aims, these extremists say there can be no compromise or dialog with those they call infidels — a category that includes America, the world’s free nation [sic], Jews, and all Muslims who reject their extreme vision of Islam. They reject the possibility of peaceful coexistence with the free world. Again, hear the words of Osama bin Laden last year: “Death is better than living on this Earth with the unbelievers among us.”
History teaches that underestimating the words of evil, ambitious men is a terrible mistake. In the early 1900s, the world ignored the words of Lenin, as he laid out his plans to launch a Communist revolution in Russia — and the world paid a terrible price. The Soviet Empire he established killed tens of millions, and brought the world to the brink of thermonuclear war.
In the 1920s, the world ignored the words of Hitler, as he explained his intention to build an Aryan super-state in Germany, take revenge on Europe, and eradicate the Jews — and the world paid a terrible price. His Nazi regime killed millions in the gas chambers, and set the world aflame in war, before it was finally defeated at a terrible cost in lives and treasure.
Bin Laden and his terrorist allies have made their intentions as clear as Lenin and Hitler before them. And the question is: Will we listen?
Hillary Clinton Statement on President Bush’s Speech November 1, 2007:
George Bush’s faulty and offensive historical analogies aren’t going to end the war in Iraq, make America safer or bring our troops home. Americans are tired of the President’s efforts to play politics with national security and practice the politics of division.
When I am President I will end the war in Iraq and bring our troops home safely.
Taking Bush’s speech at face value, what is offensive about it? In fact, what is wrong with the comparison? Without edorsing his tactics and policies, it is a historical fact that America ignored the destructive capacity of communism and Nazism.
And how will President Hilary end the war in Iraq? Surely the moment the US pulls out there will be utter mayhem and destruction. So she will end our war, but a war will continue.
With all due respect, Bush’s historical analogies are both facile and manipulative. Both Hitler and Lenin had a national power base, whereas Bin Ladin’s power base is broad, spread out and supra-national. This makes him and his ilk loud and annoying but hardly capable of the evil perpetrated by Hitler and Stalin. Of course one suitcase nuke deployed well can cause a lot of death but nothing on the scale of say the Ukranian famine, the concentration camps or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
So what we need to do is not hand the madmen a victory. There is no need to demonize Islam – that will only drive more supporters into the hands of the extremists. We need to be clear headed and focussed in our policies. So far the war in Iraq has been more about securing Oil resources and providing a cash cow for political cronies than it’s been about any kind of war on terror. I mean if you were the CEO of Haliburton and you had it within your power to actually capture bin Laden, why would you?? That one guy has created a bonanza of wealth for you! Know what I mean? He’s worth a hell of a lot more alive than he is dead.
I’m not suggesting any kind of creepy conspiracy theory. Just saying that strategies and implementation have been very muddled in this area. In the meantime, the gravy train keeps a rollin’ on!
Rabbi Yonah, No one may want to take this idiocy head on, but I’ll try for a bit.
1.) From whence does radical Islam come? Why from the source, Wahhabism. The corrupt Saudi dynasty of autocrats have been funding it well for over 70 years. They’ve only accelerated their munificent and global support since then. It is & remains the foundation touch stone of their ‘state’. Once a President stands up and recognizes this and says he wants to actually Do something about it, I’ll take his nostrums about ‘radical Islam’ more seriously.
2.) As I’ve stated here previously, Mr. Bush’s messianic sense of right & wrong which now directs his deeply muddled military policy has been disastrously mistaken since day one. Iraq was not a serious problem, Pakistan was & is. They created the Taliban along with Reagan’s minions. And now they refuse to do anything about the growing Taliban threat to their rule and the continued existence of Afghanistan as an independent functioning state. You can’t be wrong about all the foreign policy moves in the ME & SW Asia for 30 years and then have us take you or your warmed over ex-Trot’s (Poddy) seriously.
3.) I’m sorry, 2-3 ‘limited’ wars is enough fellas. We don’t have the arms, men or will to fight all of the 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world. Which BTW was Osama’s wet dream before 9-11. If only he could involve America in several useless foreign wars on Muslim soil, he could exhaust our capacity for mischief. His plan is working perfectly.
4.) Germany was a powerful unified industrialized state with the highest GDP in Europe at the time Hitler took over. There are many, many reasons why the Hitler analogy remains all too preciously misguided and too eagerly applied in this case.
Why is it that every tin horn dictator who ever drew a CIA paycheck or was a former freind of Regan/Bush/Rummy has to be vanquished once we’re done with them? Osama was developed by the CIA & Pakistan’s ISI in the 1980’s. Saddam was a product of the CIA’s efforts of the same era.
We know better now don’t we? We just need to make war with all of them, right? Or just allow the current ruling dictators around the world to decide who’s a ‘subversive’ and have them execute their rivals & dissenters in the name of the holy GWOT (Global War on Terror). This is what’s Already happening in many Muslim states that are ostensibly ‘friendly’ to us. They use the great & availble excuse of the GWOT to repress their populations. Just like the way anit-communism was used in the decades prior.
Now Poddy and the neo-cons may salivate for a new Cold War, this time religiously based, but it’s one that’s unneeded, and unsought by the vast majority of Muslims. But we strengthen the hands of despots when we invade other states in a desperately misguided search for better security here at home.
5.) The tool of bad kings, despots, dictator’s and autocrats everywhere is war & more war. Why is this? Why can’t we Finish the wars we have on our plate ( that we are loosing badly at) now? Why is it that’s there’s always a new more exciting and dangerous enemy just over the horizon ready to attack our interests? Where’s Osama today? Why hasn’t he been killed or captured? Reports now tell us that We missed him Again in Tora Bora last year too! How can this be? How can this man be the most protected individual on the face of the planet? How can both the ISI be hiding him and somehow Bush Protecting him? (Recall now that the Bin Laden’s & the Bush’s have Long been business partners in the oil business going way back to the 1070’s).
Consider again Why is it that would be autocrats like to keep a convenient scape goat around to ‘rally the population’ towards war & greater violence? Always.
No I say. Finish what you started. Then talk to me of starting WW111. If you’re so eager to talk of war as Bush is & has been ever since he was selected, you’re the wrong man for the job. So bottom line? I well know the dangers. The messenger and his ever miserable misbegotten crew of idiot advisor’s are so discredited as to be unbelievable. The mere fact that they seek, desire & hope for a wider war in a place we’re losing 2 presently does not lead to confidence in either their predictions or their assessments of the current crisis. Have they ever mobilized the entire population to defeat this ghastly enemy? The last thing Bush asked for was not sacrifice in this great endeavor, but for the masses to ‘go shopping’. Indeed. This is our ages magnificent ‘war leader’, a man so scared that he spent most of the day on 9-11 hiding and shirking his duty. And ever since too, BTW.
6.) When the Arab world soon goes Nuclear I know who I’ll blame. The Bush-nicks who thought stupidly they could ‘pivot’ (like Alexander the Great) from the great victory over a largely disarmed Iraq into Iran within a year. They were & are sadly mistaken & largely delusional. This we knew. Now we’re bogged down in a quagmire of our making in Iraq, and incapable of pressuring the surrounding bad actors (Iran & Syria et al) to do much at all. They see us stuck in the quagmire and know that the greater Arab plan for ‘liberation’ is succeeding without them even risking their troops.
No, a greater war might have the Saudis owning much of the country under Bush. Naturally he and Cheney & Co would make out like the bandits that they are. Mr. Bush is not a credible war leader. He’s not Not Winston. Nor even Neville Chamberlin. He’s a far worse man than that. He has no credibility and no authority to start yet another war. The fact that he well might tells us how far we’ve fallen as a nation from our Constitutional government, and exactly how delusional & despotic he’s become.
So a wider war? Only a madman would actively seek it willingly. Sadly we happened to be saddled with just the man. So who knows? Perhaps we’ll be getting the WW111 that the neo-cons want so badly. None of their sons or daughters will serve in it, but it will look grand to them for the short time that they’ll live to see it. Despicable all around, really.
Enough reasons? Cheers, ‘VJ’
Some corrections & clarifications. In #5 on my post above, this should read: “(Recall now that the Bin Laden’s & the Bush’s have Long been business partners in the oil business going way back to the 1970’s).’ Poddy is of course Norman Podhoretz, of Commentary and other right wing screeds.
Cheers, ‘VJ’
My concern is that when the sufferings of people from different dictatorships and terrorism get compared, it’ll turn the victims into statistics, hence take away (some of) their dignity. The flip-side of such thinking often is that through comparing various cases of injustice (and mathematically ‘equalling’ out the total numbers), some people try to justify what cannot be justified. It’s not uncommon over here in Germany to hear people claim that what Hitler had done had been bad, but that Stalin had tens of millions of people killed as well.
Maybe just say “and” instead of “but”? Hitler was bad, and Stalin was bad too.
But Hitler was yours, and Stalin was theirs. You have to be upset about Hitler, and they have to be upset about Stalin. Mind your own business.
Is that the famous “but Mom, all the boys were throwing stones at the kittens, not just me, so why are you mad at me?”
The “everybody did it” defense does not wash, as is well known.
Thanks VJ and everyone for your thoughts and I welcome more.
ck you wrote “both Hitler and Lenin had a national power base, whereas Bin Ladin’s power base is broad, spread out and supra-national.”
Hitler started as a nothing with a small band of followers. The bolsheviks also were a small group.
Both groups took over existing states.
The major concern is that radical Islamic theology will take over some more big states.
You have Saudi Arabia, Iran, and soon Pakistan (nukes) and so on.
I am not eager for any war. The question is: will they let Israel live?
The answer is not peacefully.
So therefor, if warring nations, more and more controlled by Islamic madmen, seek the destruction of Israel — at what point do we stand up and shout- “AMALEK”!
We may disagree on the semantics involved, but it is sure hard to deny that the greatest challenges for Western Civilization, and Judaism in the last century have come in this order:
Fascism, Communism, and now Islam-ism or IslamoFascism.
And if all goes well, it will be defeated or made inept like the other two. However, like the other two, they will never ever truly go away, but will hopefully become manageable.
“we’re bogged down in a quagmire of our making in Iraq, and incapable of pressuring the surrounding bad actors (Iran & Syria et al) to do much at all. They see us stuck in the quagmire and know that the greater Arab plan for ‘liberation’ is succeeding without them even risking their troops.”
Just wondering, but what kind of statistics would it take for you to believe the Iraq War isn’t a Quagmire, but is actually turning around or getting better? Any at all? What if we get it back to the kite-flying paradise Michael Moore portrayed it as? Would that be enough? I guess I’m wondering if there is anything that an anti-war person would consider as successful?
Eric, The Iraq war will go down as the most desperately wrong headed & strategically disastrous decision in American history. On that most of the JCS, all the service academies & War colleges and any real independent assessments will agree.
What will it take for ‘progress’ to be acknowledged by ‘realists’? The cessation of hostilities. The absence of a constant stream of lying, preening propaganda from the neo-cons whenever the casualty rates drop slightly. Allies willing to join us instead of fleeing the scene. An expansion of the areas under comfortable allied control & fully pacified. (Currently this does not even include the vital air link into the capital city, nor the ‘peaceful northern border’ for that matter). The progression to peace talks among waring factions in the ongoing Civil War. A working government instead of the death squads & gangs who currently run the place. Peace with their neighbors instead of several of them supporting several sides in the civil war. Our diplomats able to peaceably reside in the largest and most expensive embassy that’s ever been built (or attempted). Said embassy able to be comfortably occupied instead of being shelled hourly. (Said embassy is not being built well or in a timely manner due to the massive corruption & cost over-runs). Ditto for much of the Green Zone. Now more dangerous than Saigon ever was. The provision of electricity for more than a few hours a day for most of the country. Oil being exported again instead of us having to Import it to them.
You know the simple s*it that would tell the average citizen here & there that the streets Were as safe as any American city, that there was not several separate ongoing wars going on in each neighborhood, and ethnic cleansing on a massive scale was not occurring hourly. And yeah, the happy return of a goodly portion of the 2 Million external refugees, and the other 2 million internally displaced refugees. The largest the ME & SW Asia has seen in 60 years. And yeah, if it’s such a success, I want everyone home too. Soon.
It’s not now, nor has it ever been worth one American soldier’s life to create the 2nd Shiite dominated Islamic Republic & theocracy in the region. I just never thought my 2 trillion tax dollars were spent wisely doing that. Again, not now, not ever.
Going in we were widely warned that this would be the disastrous result, and if not now, it’s dead certain for sooner than later. Now the Bushnicks want to spend untold Trillions of dollars more trying to ‘prevent’ the inevitable. With 70% of the population being Shiite, there’s very little we can do about it though. Even if our Great War Leader knew nothing about Sunni vs Shi’a , and foolishly thought that they’d not see us as occupiers if we occupied their country, and built huge ‘permanent bases’ to guard ‘our’ oil, and then wrote silly oil contracts in 2002 ‘guaranteeing these riches’ to their corrupt oil patch cronies. It was a largely doomed quixotic quest from the start.
But I’m willing to stop and recognize the peace/victory/success (it gets redefined all too often, another clue that everything is Going So Well!). Just tell me how many milliseconds it might last, and where you see it coming from.
This has been the most corrupt, most mismanaged, the most foretold yet still disastrous war & military effort in American history. The JCS were against it from the start, and yet our Fear Less Leader (TM), still AWOL from his last military posting stateside during ‘Nam, heedlessly took us into an unneeded war, and one where we aggressively & unilaterally attacked a state that did not possess a substantial or demonstrably real risk to us. In doing so Bush’s destabilized the entire region and will cause it to plunge into a new arms race to nuclearize. We may be moments away from ‘loosing Pakistan’ too. If not to the Islamic radicals, to & for any hope for a western style or even Indian style democracy for the foreseeable future.
That sounds like a ‘heck of a job’ to me! Anyone would have been fired from it for wreaking such carnage almost anyplace else in the private sector. Or worse, brought up on numerous charges. (We can start with war profiteering and move on up). But yeah. We’re all waiting, just like Ike did for all those statistics to come in telling us of our profound success. In the bunker. Buried in the Green Zone. Surrounded by hostiles. I can just smell the ‘progress’ & ‘success’ from here!
VJ
All my friends in the US military that have served / are serving in Iraq told me the US should withdraw from there ASAP as they could never feasibly get that country under control.
Eric: don’t waste your breath. Trying to convince people that Iraq is working out is a sisyphean effort. People believe what they want to believe – just like they do with the Palis.
ck – the Islamofascists already have levels of funding and influence – and influential backing – that the early Nazis and Bolshies would deeply envy.
They have already killed tens of thousands of their Arab opponents, and rather than having to conquer and cow a democratized population, they are doing quite well penetrating and dominating a region that is steeped in the use of force and tribal allegience. They are also doing very well in the immigrant Muslim communities of Europe.
How many Nazi/Bolshie cells do you think there were – that could actually carry out attacks like we’ve seen in the past few years? Nothing like what the Islamo Fascists already have.
Sarah:
exactly how many of your friends have served in the US military?
Could you provide links to their comments?
From what I see and read, the overwhelming majority of service people support the war.
BD, about a dozen, and I know them in person, their comments aren’t online. Those that I refer to have served in Iraq (one of them was among the first infantry brigade that took over Baghdad) and are not just members of the military; while they acknowledge a need for humanitary aid to that country, they all claimed the US military cannot do much there (you cannot beat a democratic mindset into people). The only blog I’ve encountered from a pro-war member of the military was that of a finance soldier that in no way will ever get near any location of combat. Those guys sit in offices in Kuwait.
Sarah – what do you mean when you say “not just members of the military”?
Are they just members of an NGO, and not soldiers?
Almost all the first-hand blogs and reporting that I have seen indicates that the vast majority of the military supports the war.
Sources I regularly read include:
http://milblogging.com/
(largest aggregator of military blogs)
http://www.blackfive.net/
http://baldilocks.typepad.com/
(two popular blogs with long lists of military blogs)
http://www.michaeltotten.com/
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
(two journalists who have proven track records for getting the story on the ground, undistorted by left-political ideology)
ANOTHER GRIM MILESTONE (for some!)
-American casualties steadily declined over 2007, and are now one-third what they were in 2006.
-Iraqi civilian casualties have dropped even more.
-Iraqis are now returning to Baghdad and other relatively peaceful places.
As reported by the LA times, AP, and Iraqi news service.
Links (click the first one for pictures worth a thousand words):
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/11/another-grim-milestone-iraqis-return-to.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-bush3nov03,1,4209599.story?coll=la-news-a_section
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SMC1HG0&show_article=1&catnum=0
http://66.111.34.180/look/english/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrArticle=59184&NrIssue=2&NrSection=1
– – – — – – – – – – — – – – – – – –
The war is turning, it is being won.
And it took far fewer casualties than any previous war.
The time frame for building the first Arab democracy will be roughly the same as it was for Germany and Japan post WWII. The only thing that’s changed is the petulant, childish impatience of the lefties.
Facts are such ugly, intransigent things. We’ve suffered the bloodiest summer ever in our occupation of Iraq. The reason behind the unexpected lull since then is the fact that the strongest militia group in Iraq, members of Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army have been directed to ‘stand down’ as of Aug 7th. That’s when their wanted criminal head, Muqtada al-Sadr announced that he had “ordered his militia to suspend offensive operations for six months”.
Not surrender. Not ‘start peace talks about surrendering, power sharing, government accommodation’ nor even a limited truce. Just to rearm & reequip & train up more militants, he wanted a short respite & a ‘time out’. So he ordered one. Hence the relative reduction in American casualties since then. But yeah, we’re in such a strong strategic position there, we’ve been unable to exploit this ‘boon’, other than for propaganda purposes stateside. Heck of a Job guys! Sounds like great generalship!
So again, the leader of the notorious Mahdi army, Muqtada al-Sadr, the man who was responsible for fighting us to a draw with his forces almost every time he was ‘cornered’ , decided to play the long game in the emerging wider Civil War, and to preserve his options, he’s gone to training up more fighters. We can’t stop him, but neo-con dupes like to claim that we’re now ‘winning the war’ due to this unilateral action on behalf of just one of the more violent bad actors on the scene.
Again not due to any overt US ‘military strategy’ we’ve magically implemented over a year back. Or even the pitiful number of new troops we have barely hanging on. (So few in fact that we can’t even adequately guard the northern borders, check that, Any of the borders of Iraq). Recall again that Bush & his wonder Generals (the yes men He’s gradually installed to suit His strategy) have already Lost to al-Sadr in every direct engagement they’ve ever conducted. In Countless raids, and direct assaults on cities. Failed. Failed to Kill or capture the most dangerous specter in Iraq.
But you tell us now that we’re winning? How? Where? *When?*
You want Real Islamofascists my friend? Then call them by their proper name, and address them where they live. They are the House of Bush’s original Power base, their primary backers for over 35 years. The House of Saud. (See Craig Unger’s very informative, ‘House of Bush, House of Saud). [HouseofBush.com]. This includes Prince Bandar ‘Bush’, an autocrats aristocrat so close to the ruling family of America, that they adopted him!
From the Times of London:
“Saudi Arabia is hub of world terror
The desert kingdom supplies the cash and the killers
Nick Fielding and Sarah Baxter, Washington
…Yet wealthy Saudis remain the chief financiers of worldwide terror networks.
…Saudi religious scholars have caused consternation in Iraq and Iran by issuing fatwas calling for the destruction of the great Shi’ite shrines in Najaf and Karbala in Iraq, some of which have already been bombed. …leading figures within the kingdom who advocate extremism are tolerated”
[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2801017.ece]
Iraq is ‘working out’ fine for only the people making money off of the deal. Sure Bush & Cheney & their defense or oil patch cronies, but few else. Or Iran of course, but we could have safely predicted that 6 years ago. Yeah, actually check out the polling reports too. Most of the troops want out now too. A clear majority see no purpose for being there other than to be shot up further doing futile work for a strategically impossible mission. I can get the cites no problem, but I see that the neo-cons & war fanatics here are just as immune to facts as they are elsewhere, so why bother.
Anyone have skin in this game? If this Was the most important struggle & decisive battle of the 21st century, why not re-start the draft? Like 2 years ago when it may have made a difference? Why not supply the troops with working body armor? I could go on.
Again, I fail to see why my countrymen are fighting and dying to see Muqtada al-Sadr either installed as President of Iraq or the man who decides who this might be.
VJ
BD, I mean that somebody who’s actually served there in Iraq (and that I know for sure has served there and is not just another anonymous keyboard-hero who got his ‘military traing’ from playing games like Command ‘n’ Conquer) may have a different perspective on things.
Does this source mean anything?
Military Times (From December 2006):
Thanks to grandmuffti for the cite. Again not too far removed from the opinion of the general population, which is all that can be hoped for. Cheers, ‘VJ’
Military Times
HELLLLOOOOOOOOO!!!
Yoo- hoo!
Greetings from back down here in reality.
Muffti – you are quoting a survey taken in December 2006. When the war effort was at a nadir of inerria and strategic uncertainty.
That’s why top-level generals were shuffled/replaced shortly after your numbers were collected.
I just posted numbers showing a sustained improvement in the situation over 2007.
Don’t you sorta-kinda think that a reinvigorated strategy, a steady string of victories, and greatly improved situation on the ground – don’t you sorta-kinda think that would change people’s opinion?
Talk about cherry-picking!
VJ wrote:
We’ve suffered the bloodiest summer ever in our occupation of Iraq. The reason behind the unexpected lull since then is the fact that the strongest militia group in Iraq, members of Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army have been directed to ’stand down’ as of Aug 7th.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Nope. Look at the charts at the link I posted. There has been a steady decline across 2007, relative to the previous year.
At least I know not to respond to any further posts by you – since you are quoting the crazier Kos kids as your “wisdom text”.
And if you think Saudi involvement in terror is some sort of revelation… let me guess – you think you’re “reality based”…..
Shame on Ben-David for promoting cognitive dissonance.
The best evidence that things are turning in Iraq is the sudden near-silence of US media on the subject.
Our military has learned from its mistakes, casualties are declining, Al-Qaeda in Iraq is losing support– all told, a disaster for the Bush-hating American left. Let’s not lose hope, though, that a Democratic president will somehow summon the courage to withdraw US troops with our tails between our legs.
That’s why Muffti asked! No need to be so rude! In any case, good point, though Muffti does think that it’s a bit early to be overly optimistic; the dropoff in casualties (both iraqi and us) was awfully dramatic and quick; things were awfully bad back in august by the looks of the charts.
Muffti would be happy to quote a more recent source. regretably he couldn’t find one with comprehensive poll numbers. Anyhow, as always, he hopes you are right.
and he shoudl note, based on the chart you linked to (gateway pundit), us deaths haven’t been declining over 2007 – they peaked in June…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=Aj2B9linuBEo1E3PTITioWBn.3QA
LGF: Grim Milestone Watch.
My personal opinion is that Iraq will be doodoo deep in a factional civil war in the not too distant future and the US efforts to introduce liberal democratic reforms in the area are an exercise in futility.
Tom, I dedicated a post to you some time in the last few days.
I don’t know, what is it about the ‘Deadliest Year in Iraq yet’ that you neo-con Bush supporters don’t understand? This from the link that Sarah provided that was also carried by the NYT. Of course the Real right wingers have always derided the source as being ‘the Jew York Times’ and hence somehow less reliable due to the Jewish owership, but hey you work with the statistics you’ve got. So which secret pristine 100% accurate new sources do you war wonder boosters rely on?
All Ben David et al can do is to question the purported source of the information. Which is typical, really. There were never any facts that important to the neo-cons who dearly wanted this misbegotten war that they could not smear, deny, hide, spin, ‘reconstruct’ or lastly their favorite, ‘disappear’. Almost all of them come directly from the military, which has been known to be shading the truth in favor of an ‘all is well’ consensus since the start.
AP
“Deadliest year for US troops in Iraq
By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated Press Writer 24 minutes ago
BAGHDAD – The U.S. military announced six new deaths Tuesday, making 2007 the bloodiest year for American troops in Iraq despite a recent decline in casualties and a sharp drop in roadside bombings that Washington links to Iran.
With nearly two months left in the year, the annual toll is now 853 — three more than the previous worst of 850 in 2004”.
Yeah, we’re winning so much, we’ll be able to walk around in downtown Baghdad free of any security or militia & death squad attacks, about the 2200’s. When the deserts been turned to glass and has stopped being an immediate radiation hazard. Something I’ve heard many neo-cons actually pray and hope for. Some damn success folks! Hearts & minds. No hearts or minds needed! Instant Success!
Cheers, ‘VJ
Sorry, VJ. Us ‘right wingers’ and ‘neocons’ (when did I signup? )just aren’t open minded, I suppose.
VJ – take a look at the link posted by Shy Guy – which vets the liberal media’s attempt to spin positive news negatively.
This war has taken less time and fewer casualties than any comparable war.
And it will take us as much time to democratize Iraq (and maybe Iran!) as it took us to democratize Japan – oh wait, we actually still have military bases there, and in Germany. Wow!
The folks itching to declare failure and pullout are old boomer-liberals and lefties who want to cram every situation into the template of Vietnam – together with their brainwashed, attention-deficit pupils among generations X, Y, and Z.
Muffti – sorry if I was a bit rude.
I realize I shouldn’t be so hard on you – after all, you take such pains not to have any strong opinions in most matters… 🙂
Ben-David, I assume that you assume that I am personally anything but a boomer liberal leftie. Yet I do not believe that the US will win hearts and minds in Islamic Iraq and Iran.
Because Islam is the name of the game there, I do not believe that the comparison to the post WWII democratization of Germany and Japan is valid.
Yep. Impervious to any facts. Just as suspected.
So we’ll talk Really Slowly for those who can’t follow along at home.
“This war has taken less time and fewer casualties than any comparable war.”
Umm NO. This war has lasted longer than any prior war, except ‘Nam. In a few months it will surpass the total funds spent on that misbegotten war too. We’ve already got 35-40K+ casualties from the war, yes, not as many dead (@~4,000), but 10 Times that many serious wounded & medically evacuated from the theater.
“And it will take us as much time to democratize Iraq (and maybe Iran!) as it took us to democratize Japan – oh wait, we actually still have military bases there, and in Germany. Wow!”
Wow! You guys Really are Nuts & Dumb!
Germany of course had a real democratic history before Hitler’s 12 year detour. They were & are a keystone state of the Western Alliance, and we really did not need bases in Germany to protect or occupy it save for projecting our forces forward to deter the old USSR from attacking Europe. (Remember anti-Communism?!) This is why Germany became a member of NATO in 1955, and a full member of the EU from 1958. The successful Marshall Plan was rebuilding Germany from 1947 onwards. Not one soul was lost due to hostile acts trying to prevent this undertaking.
So let’s count then, shall we? Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
[My comments were truncated, I’m trying again to post them in full]
Yep. Impervious to any facts. Just as suspected.
So we’ll talk Really Slowly for those who can’t follow along at home.
“This war has taken less time and fewer casualties than any comparable war.”
Umm NO. This war has lasted longer than any prior war, except ‘Nam. In a few months it will surpass the total funds spent on that misbegotten war too. We’ve already got 35-40K+ casualties from the war, yes, not as many dead (@~4,000), but 10 Times that many serious wounded & medically evacuated from the theater.
“And it will take us as much time to democratize Iraq (and maybe Iran!) as it took us to democratize Japan – oh wait, we actually still have military bases there, and in Germany. Wow!”
Wow! You guys Really are Nuts & Dumb!
Germany of course had a real democratic history before Hitler’s 12 year detour. They were & are a keystone state of the Western Alliance, and we really did not need bases in Germany to protect or occupy it save for projecting our forces forward to deter the old USSR from attacking Europe. (Remember anti-Communism?!) This is why Germany became a member of NATO in 1955, and a full member of the EU from 1958. The successful Marshall Plan was rebuilding Germany from 1947 onwards. Not one soul was lost due to hostile acts trying to prevent this undertaking.
So let’s count then, shall we? Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
[Trying to post again due to the truncation of my response above.]
[Cont’d]
Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
[Again, Another futile? try].
Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
Middle, which post? Can you point me in the right direction?
Home page, 5 posts under this one.
[One more once…]
Yep. Impervious to any facts. Just as suspected.
So we’ll talk Really Slowly for those who can’t follow along at home.
“This war has taken less time and fewer casualties than any comparable war.”
Umm NO. This war has lasted longer than any prior war, except ‘Nam. In a few months it will surpass the total funds spent on that misbegotten war too. We’ve already got 35-40K+ casualties from the war, yes, not as many dead (@~4,000), but 10 Times that many serious wounded & medically evacuated from the theater.
“And it will take us as much time to democratize Iraq (and maybe Iran!) as it took us to democratize Japan – oh wait, we actually still have military bases there, and in Germany. Wow!”
Wow! You guys Really are Nuts & Dumb!
Germany of course had a real democratic history before Hitler’s 12 year detour. They were & are a keystone state of the Western Alliance, and we really did not need bases in Germany to protect or occupy it save for projecting our forces forward to deter the old USSR from attacking Europe. (Remember anti-Communism?!) This is why Germany became a member of NATO in 1955, and a full member of the EU from 1958. The successful Marshall Plan was rebuilding Germany from 1947 onwards. Not one soul was lost due to hostile acts trying to prevent this undertaking.
So let’s count then, shall we? Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
[Once more to the breach]!
Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
VJ – you sure are “talking really slowly”!
But don’t bother – you lost me after the asinine assertion that this war has lasted longer than any other in history (except Vietnam – that’s always the liberal lefties’ gold standard for wars…).
Japan was a feudal society no less brutal in its subjugation of Chinese and others that it conquered during WWII than the Islamicists. They also had well-funded suicide bombers – Google “kamikaze” if you’ve forgotten.
And now?
That’s the program. Anyone with eyes in their head understands that Arab/Muslim culture must be turned – and that if it isn’t, nobody will have peace – or freedom. No matter how multiculti-PC they are.
And such changes take decades, not years.
BD, you think the national arrogance of the Japanese is the same as the religious belief of Islam that they can only be right because Allah says so and Allah wants them to dominate the entire world by hook or by crook?
And if so, you think that by transforming Iraq into a showcase democracy (good luck with that), the rest will follow?
Are you joking?
That’s ok, B-D. It doesn’t take much pain or effort not to have a strong opinion. Just a healthy awareness of how much you don’t know!
[For the record, none of you nimrods Knews history. Real History].
Germany of course had a real democratic history before Hitler’s 12 year detour. They were & are a keystone state of the Western Alliance, and we really did not need bases in Germany to protect or occupy it save for projecting our forces forward to deter the old USSR from attacking Europe. (Remember anti-Communism?!) This is why Germany became a member of NATO in 1955, and a full member of the EU from 1958. The successful Marshall Plan was rebuilding Germany from 1947 onwards. Not one soul was lost due to hostile acts trying to prevent this undertaking.
So let’s count then, shall we? Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
[We’ll do this in pieces, see if that takes]
So let’s count then, shall we? Number of years of ‘necessary occupation’ of West Germany?
Well, it should have started in 1933, if you ask me. Now there happens to be a country which reelects the Bushman,…
Thank goodness Israel is a fairly decent democracy, not perfect perhaps, but well, it has a longer democratic history now than Germany had before Hitler…
My story, I’m among other things a comic book collector, a new comic book started about a (fictional) toy rabbit, who happens to be made by a female (fully Jewish) descendant of the Maharal. (Talked about it with a real descendant of the Maharal, no problem there) in a real exposition of toys (sort of a traveling version of one in Yad vaShem). Toys there were more or less Yad vaShem’s or the owner had a strong connection to the Netherlands, as the rabbit is Belgian he should belong in Israel!
It seems he cannot speak Hebrew (speaks Dutch but pronounces Emes/Emet as Emed, golem like trait) but well I commented on that and and got involved, the toy exposition, at least the one in Yad vaShem has connections to the Hidden Childsite and there a doctor with a name I recognized asked for volunteers to translate her books into English… Had some around here, so I volunteered and asked her which book she wanted to have translated, well she suggested some. I have one of the suggested, so that’s the one I’m translating now.
Anybody at Jewlicicious interested in test reading the introduction? I have already somebody at Harvard, but you know… before they are ready there…
Second question does anybody how long mail takes to reach somebody in Israel?
http://www.adl.org/hidden/between_religions/hc_7-1-happy_forever.asp
http://www.adl.org/hidden/separation/hc_9-1_shattered_life.asp
About the comics mentioned:
http://www.senneensanne.com/index.php?categoryid=4
By the way, book 1 is about the Shoah. The exposition:
http://hannivoort.org/synagoge-enschede.nl/asp/GeenKinderspelFotos220106.asp
(nicest and most Jewlicious pics, IMO, there are more)
Theodoor
Muffti wrote:
That’s ok, B-D. It doesn’t take much pain or effort not to have a strong opinion. Just a healthy awareness of how much you don’t know!
– – – – – – – – – – – – – –
You think you know what you don’t know?
Just wait til you get married, Mr. Humility….
Tom said:
“The best evidence that things are turning in Iraq is the sudden near-silence of US media on the subject.”
Bravo! I bet the fine fans of Amy Goodman around here wouldn’t even be aware of the fact that Al Qaeda in Irag had been fully routed from Baghdad and from Anbar Province. Why bother with success, when America losing the war is the democrats best chance to get into office. Ask Harry Reid.
heh. Good point, B-D! Muffti thinks he knows THAT there isn’t much he knows, not that he knows WHAT he doesn’t know. It helps to have a Ben David around who knows more than you do. Maybe some day you will find yours!
Anyone who doesn’t recognize that the current Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews in general, and Israel in particular, is astonishingly ignorant.
The precursor of Al Qaeda is the Muslim Brotherhood whose origins are with no less than the Nazi SS.
This is not just the Sunni cult, but the Shiite cult in Iran as well.
The fat rat, Saudi Arabia, is, now that the threat posed by Saddam Hussein is extinguished, most afraid of the hungry rat, Iran, eyeing its oil.
There is no future for either Jews or Israel in the Arab/Muslim purview; and it is a cruel tortuous hope that peace can ever be achieved.
Look at a world map. Read some history of the Arab/Muslim expansion out of Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries that, by 711 C.E., had these vermin in control of Spain; and they still fret about losing “their Muslim” territory now called Spain. Look at a world map. What Land is at the center of this Evil Arab/Muslim Empire where all of the indigenous peoples were either forcibly converted to Mohammedanism or killed. Look at a world map. What is at the center of this evil force seeking world supremacy? Look at a world map. What Land is surrounded by this ghastly evil. Look at a world map. It is the Land belonging to the Jewish people.
Look at a world map. Study it from a historical point of view. Study it from a current events point of view. What is at the edges of this Evil Empire? They are all of the world’s flash points: Darfur in Africa. Bosnia in Europe. Crapistan, (or Pakistan if you prefer), in Asia. etc. Look at a world map. Peace is a cruel joke on the lines of Chamberlain’s “peace in our time.”
Lance, please don’t use the word “vermin” in that way on Jewlicious.
muffti:
It helps to have a Ben David around who knows more than you do. Maybe some day you will find yours!
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/sixteen.htm
I never click on links usually..but BD, that was funny!!!
That was pretty clever. B-D 1, Muffti 0.
Muffti-
B-D 1, Muffti 0.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
No, Muffti, I’m not keeping score.