Here’s the thing. I’ve been thinking about poor Helen Thomas, who IÂ believe was probably just saying what everyone thinks and has therefore been made a scapegoat. Not that I really care, because we ought to share the scapegoat status once in a while. It’s the least we can do to dispel the stereotype that we are stingy, us irritating Jews.
Irritating enough, apparently – like the too-talented and bossy fame-hog Rachel Berry (Lea Michele) on Fox’s Glee – in our discovery of the written word, monotheism, modern physics, psychology, vaccinations, and the film industry, that every country that has ever “hosted” us has found it necessary to tell us to get the hell out, like Thomas did. (Ironically, the aforementioned Jewish character Rachel, in a particularly annoying moment in one episode, was told by classmates to move to Israel. I doubt the writers coordinated this telling joke – Jews do equal Israel in the eyes of the world, sorry J Street - with the State Department.)
Anywho. Helen, you know why we were in Germany and much of Eastern Europe in the first place? (And by the way, if I follow your advice, do you think the nice old ladies who got my grandmothers’ large houses and farms from the Nazis in what was once Czechoslovakia will kick the property back two generations? That would be cool because I’d love a vineyard and an agricultural estate.)
…We were in Germany and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Russia (where we were regularly just plain killed by Cossacks), and also, for many centuries, Poland (ditto), cuz we were told to get the hell out of England, France, and Spain. (Or, you know, just plain killed by handsome and heroic fairytale knights.)
And you know why we were in Western Europe to begin with? Cuz we were told by the Greeks and the Romans – wait for it – to get the hell out of “Palestine,” where we had been living since the beginning of recorded history.
We also ended up in Babylonia (Iraq) and other Middle Eastern and North African countries, where we stayed as second class citizens for hundreds and hundreds of years, till the Arab world finally caught up with the pagans and the Christians in their hatred of the Jews. Amazing how the student has now far surpassed the teacher. But I digress.
(By the way, I am aware that the Arab narrative has us Ashkenazi Jews as descendants of the Khazars, but the actual facts have it different. See this new DNA study linking European Jews with their Middle Eastern counterparts, all stemming from one original population of Holy Land Jews predating Roman times. Never mind our own texts that say the same thing; I know they are inadmissible in the international courts of the mind.)
 In any event, there is no way around it: Jews being asked (usually not by old ladies on the White House lawn) to get the hell out of anywhere and everywhere is just the way it goes.
So it came to pass that about 200 years BCE the Macabees got sick of it and established a Jewish state in Palestine, within the Roman Empire, which lasted till about the time of Jesus (another Pesky Jew) and the destruction of the Second Temple.
And it also came to pass that Jewish settlers began arriving in Ottoman Palestine in the late 1800’s, after the Russians and the Poles made it clear that Jews were persona non grata in Eastern Europe. Palestine was as good a place as any to escape to, since it was the last place, about 2000 years before, that the Jews had a sovereign state (see above). Never mind Jewish liturgy and texts pining for Jerusalem, since I know these, too, are inadmissible in the international courts of the mind.
Anyway, nowhere else wanted European Jews any more than Russia did, not even America really, where there were very strict quotas, although the Americans, again politely, refrained from all the messy European killing, which was apparently in vogue until after Hitler. Besides, those Ottoman Turks, as now, were known around the world for their amazing human rights activism and the Jews were excited to see it first hand. (No, not really. But anyway…they were better than the Polish peasants. Unless you were Armenian.)
It is true that there were people in Palestine before the Jews arrived en masse (for there was always a handful of Jews that remained here….), not *A People*, but rather a group of assorted regional Arabs (think Native American tribes in North America…who by the way were treated much worse by the Colonialists…) who had settled the area with not much agricultural success and had endured various rulers over the millennia.
But when the *Jews* came back, it was suddenly necessary, once again, to tell them to get the hell out. There was no living side by side, even though that was an express Jewish desire right up until 1947/8, when the Partition Plan was summarily rejected by the Arab League, who started the war that Israel won. If keeping land you win in a war others provoke (when you wanted to make peace) is called occupation, Helen, the world’s axis of furious justice has a lot bigger fish to fry than shitty little Israel.
The Arab desire to kick the Jews the hell out of Palestine did not begin in 1967, and not in 1948. It began the moment the initial groups of Jews arrived and started to make the land flower and produce crops. That’s when the attacks on Jews began, and when the Arab world decided a new Jewish presence in the land would not do, back when there were about half a million Arabs and just under 100,000 Jews in the Holy Land, in the early 1900’s. 20% was too much, apparently, to bear. (The Hebron Massacre of 1929, where marauding Arabs killed nearly 70 Jews and wounded countless others, took place long before a single house was built over the Green Line.)  I can only imagine how awful it was – probably for both the Arabs and the British – when it became clear we were here to stay and grow to much further percentages. We are that annoying, what with trying to get rid of malaria and tuberculosis and everything.
At any rate, it seems that every time a Jewish minority starts to make a society too successful – so annoying!!!! – the indigenous people start to feel very uncomfortable, and tells them one way or another to get the hell out.
But now, alas, there is nowhere left for us to go, except the eternal place Ahmadinejad wants us to go, and Haniyeh and Nasralla, and Hitler before them, and Chemilniki before him, and Haman before him, and so on. And, I suspect, in her heart of hearts, perhaps Thomas and the likes of her, who, the pesky Jew Freud may have observed, seriously let her slip show.
Let me make it clear: I know that Israel has made mistakes over its 62 years, some clumsy and inept (was there no intelligence regarding the terrorists aboard the Mavi Marmara?!?), and some borderline immoral. But none worse than every other democracy on earth has also done, and most much better than the large majority of the UN rogue nations which condemn Israel daily have done…daily. There is MUCH to improve in the way we govern, I will be the first to say it. I will also be the first to say that various Jews of the Bernie Madoff and Greed-is-Good-Goldman-Sachs ilk make me want to crawl under a rock. I know that the world is only waiting for these guys to emerge in order to pin their crimes on all of us, even though everything they do is in direct contradiction of actual Jewish values.
But let’s be honest: the international community’s human rights crusades on behalf of the Palestinians are just the latest Crusades, and the ones who REALLY suffer are not the Jews or the Israelis but the poor occupants of the Third World who are ignored while the enlightened First World castigates the Jews… and yes, of course, the Palestinians, who are kept in misery *by their own leadership* in order to provide the polite Jew haters with a media club to beat them with.
So here’s the thing: We are not going anywhere this time, Helen. We totally get it: Ya’ll pretty much hate us. It’s just the way it is, like a natural law. Nothing we can do – not giving away pieces of Palestine / Israel (witness our evacuation of Gaza in 2005, and handing over the keys to army bases and greenhouses- a new economy! Food for the children! – which were summarily torched as property of the infidels); not donating billions annually to global charity,  nor discovering a cure for Polio or the Theory of Relativity, or writing revered legal and religious texts, or co-founding Google, or manufacturing the microprocessor in the majority of laptops that spew Jew hatred to the Internet, or founding Christianity itself, or championing women’s rights and gay rights in the US and helping to bring about a *human rights revolution* in America in the 60’s, …None of those things will absolve us of our real sin: Existing and overcoming.
I’m really sorry they told you to get the hell out of the White House, Helen. It really wasn’t your fault that you thought you could say what you said. It’s not like it’s a secret: That’s what people think.
But this time, seriously. Getting the hell out is not in the cards. We’re just sick of moving all the time.
I know. Irritating.
Editorial Note: Despite the expulsion of the Jews after the suppression of the Bar Kochba revolt, there was never a time when Jews did not live in Israel. Also, prior to the Zionist influenced immigrations, there were a number of smaller religiously motivated waves of immigration to Israel.
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Not that unusual that words can acquire a primary meaning that’s nearly the opposite of their original meaning. Among many examples, consider different meanings across the twentieth century of the word “Palestinian.”…
The best-known explainer of the spectrum within the Orthodox Jewish world is probably the sociologist Samuel Heilman.
AFIK, the German gov’t recognized two denominations as of about 1850, the Reform and the Orthodox, after Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch of Frankfurt-am-Main declared his community “austritt.” Today incidentally many prefer “stream” to “denomination.”
The state of Israel, which has one of the two largest Jewish populations in the world, recognizes only the Orthodox. All army chaplains are Orthodox, and all Jewish marriages are by Orthodox rabbis. Secular Israelis have to go through various maneuvers if they wish to avoid this. The state delegates family law to other recognized religious communities, basing its statutes on the old Ottoman Majlis code, so Muslims are married by Muslim clerics, Christians by Christians, Druse by Druze, etc.
Rabbi Hirsch preferred the term “Torah Judaism.” Most Orthodox nowadays prefer “shomer-mitswah.”
Chasidish is one variety of Orthodox.
Nuremberg and Eisenach far? And here I’d heard so much praise of Germany’s vaunted high-speed rail network. And the concert probably starts around 8 PM in Siegen.
Well, yes, a turkey in an oven actually is baked. That’s why the terms are the same. The difference is just the context. The distinctions that you make, regarding moisture in the dough, and the motion of the rotisserie chicken, aren’t present in the definitions in the American Heritage dictionary.
Perhaps these distinctions are there in German words.
I have to hold with Arlo in this, as I do in most things.
By the way, he’s playing in Germany July 29-31, in Eisenach, Siegen, and Nuremberg. You definitely should go see him. Bring a crowd; tell him I sent you. I haven’t seen him perform in more than a couple years now. He’s one of the very greatest. And you can straighten him out on the difference between “roast” and “bake.” He’s very accessible.
Dictionaries in English give the definitions ordered according to how common the usage is.
“Colony” in English has a general sense of a population from the mother country transplanted to the new territory. That idea isn’t present either in “province” or in “provincia.”
Since the word derives from the Latin, to apply a Latinate word to something quite different in Roman history would be confusing, and thus is never done.
Also, a “colonia” in antiquity was a city with its immediate environs; a “provincia” was a much larger region that included several cities.
In fact, my edition of the American Heritage puts the Roman definition of the English word “province” in the first position. The current edition, at
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary
drops it down to the seventh definition. Such is the decline in classical education in America.
Re Graetz, I cited Goitein as one example. There’s plenty of new discovery and analysis in medieval European Jewish history that makes Graetz outdated. For example, new discovery of works by Rabbi Asher b. Yechiel, published as I recall by Mossad HaRav Kook. Daniel Matt’s recent work on the Zohar is another example. Another is Daniel Korobkin’s recent translation of the Kuzari — which had great influence upon central European Jewish thought. Lots of other examples.
In the early modern period, the era of the founding of Chasidism, Arie Morgenstern’s _Hastening Redemption_ has changed scholarship. Also plenty of other examples.
The Orthodox among the Jews are far more central in the Jewish community than the Watchtower folks are among Christians. The comparison seems incorrect.
The reason to mention ArtScroll was to give the earliest commonly accepted “traditional” date for the patriarchs, and thus the beginning of the Jews. Even this date is hundreds of years later than the year the legendary Trebeta founded Trier, according to the Gesta Treverorum. And secular scholars generally place the beginning of the Jews at an even more recent date.
If Celtic traders encountered a foreign frontier in the vicinity of Koblenz, it doesn’t necessarily mean it was impervious. It’s typical of traders to trade across political boundaries.
I suppose I should look for Leisering’s atlas at the library. How does Mommsen read in the German? In the English translation, he refers to the Roman province as Asia, not Asia Minor.
And from the title, he evidently translates the Latin “provincia” as “Provinz.”
Certainly the American Heritage dictionary says “Asia Minor” and “Anatolia” are simply terms for a region, and refer to the entirety of modern Turkey, excluding Turkey’s European portion. You can also see this at Merriam-Webster.com/dictionary. Or
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Asia%20Minor
This may simply be a difference between English and German usage.
DJStahl, just a side-note in case you’ve been wondering, if your comments include more than two links, they’ll be put into the moderation queue.
As for the baking and the roasting, I dare say dictionary entries cannot be as comprehensive as encyclopaediae. Unfortunately, I’ve lent out my “Longman Language Activator”, which is a pretty handy dictionary of synonyms combined with a thesaurus; it provides ample annotations on usage, sample sentences and differences in usage in different provenances. As far as I’ve learnt from an American linguistics and an American and a British writing prof, the order of entries in dictionaries do not necessarily reflect commonality of use. I’ve seen dictionaries listing translations in alphabetical order even.
Nuremberg and Eisenach are pretty far away from me, Siegen is not as far but inconvenient to get to, and the concert is on a Friday night.
A colony is just what Asia Minor was. As for Mommsen’s use of “Provinz”, consider his historical context – the German Empire had established colonies in Africa but occupied a “Provinz” (Preußische Rheinprovinz) on German-speaking soil, so the connotations of his day must have influenced his decision. “Kolonie” in German can as well mean an enclosed enclave as well as a settlement of one’s country outside the territory of one’s state. Since Roman expansion inevitably came with settlement, the English connotations of colony seem to fit rather well. I think I’d explained above that the Latin “colonia” is not synonymous with the English “colony”; “enclave” might be a more fitting term to translate “colonia”. (Think “Colonia Agrippina” resp. “Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium”). I suppose in a comprehensive essay on the matter, one has to resort to the stylistic approach I laid out above, namely giving the terminus technicus alongside a matching translation or maybe a footnote. It might be worth noting that people in academia in Prussia in those days were expected to kiss up to authorities.
Well, this post was about Jewish migration, not doctrine, and Graetz remains valid there for what he could know. Archaeology was still in its infancy, mind you, but Graetz reported on popular history / folklore – i.e. the legends and tales – in his “Volkstümliche Geschichte der Juden” and my particular / original point of concern was the eastward migration of Jews from the Rhineland and areas west of it due to the Rintfleisch and Armleder pogroms. His “Geschichte der Juden” falls into a different category, but as I’ve said before, the post and many comments employed popular history.
I find it amusing that the American Heritage Dictionary lists Asia Minor and Anatolia as congruent terms in the link you provided and claims it excludes the European part of Turkey while Anatolia for the most part of the existence of the term as well as Asia Minor as a name for a region mostly respectively exclusively in case of the latter referred to the European part of Turkey.
Please consider that even Roman trade routes avoided the Germanic territories east of the Rhine River. For one, it wasn’t a friendly area to pass through – hostile people, a landscape hard to travel; the river was wider then than it is now, and it would still take a boat or a keen swimmer to cross over to the other side these days. Hmmmm, to add some colour, here’s a picture I took a few weeks ago (CI Cesar built a bridge across the Rhine River pretty much where the horizon is in that photo): http://bit.ly/Rhine_River
Would it be fair to say that Orthodox are mainstream among affiliated Jews? And when you say “Orthodox”, do you mean “not quite Conservative but I eat OU” or do you mean “frum”? (Most of my friends over there are Chasidish.)
Thanks for the picture Esme`, its true a picture does say a thousand words and this one speaks volumes, it explains this nazi miscreants extreme low self esteem and need to dominate, if she smells as bad as she looks not even the obscure view through the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels will help, I guess it clarifies why her need or search for self worth is met with an eternal quest to reach messianic status. Yes you are right, dialogue is simply a waste of time and her cerebrally challenged or skewed overview of all that she reads is not worth the time or effort to rectify or debate as it is pointless, thanks again I feel comforted with your valued opinion.
I have only one question left, can you hear her howl at the moon on the Rhineland?
Per Merriam-Webster, the first definition of “infrastructure” is abstract — the systems and organization of an institution, etc. I’ve been using the second and third definitions, that I’ve heard more often, referring to the physical infrastructure.
In this case, I’ve been referring to what physical improvements have been made on the Moselle. Whatever these may be seems irrelevant.
The question seems to me whether there was trade and traffic between Trier and Koblenz via the Moselle valley in ancient times. Whether or not they had ways to deepen the river then seems irrelevant.
I’ve encountered “weir” often enough in this context; “barrage” is a bit more exotic in this context, and appears used only when referring to rivers that connect directly to the sea.
The definitions of “roast” and “bake” are the same technically. The American Heritage dictionary says both are cooking with dry heat, typically in an oven. It adds that “bake” is usually mentioned in the context of pastry or bread. As Arlo sagely pointed out, in idiom one never “roasts” a cake.
My American Heritage dictionary says, “Anatolia. Asia Minor (see).”
Further on, it says, “Asia Minor. Formerly Anatolia. [then the phonetic spelling] The western peninsula of Asia, lying between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean and including Asian Turkey.”
The way we’re taught here is that the definitions in a dictionary are ordered, the most common meaning being given first.
So to cite the third definition without acknowledging the others that are understood as more common is incorrect.
We aren’t in agreement in how you use “colony.” Again, in English usage, when historians write about Roman history, they use “province” for “provincia,” never “colony.” Or they leave it as “provincia.” Often when they refer to a “colonia,” they leave the Latin spelling.
Although the English words have diverged in meaning from the original Latin, to use “colony” for “provincia” would be too confusing.
You don’t have to post anything you don’t want to. But a specific reference to a particular atlas, with the name, publisher, publication date, and page number, would be more persuasive.
Graetz is a classic, certainly. But citing him is a bit like citing Macauley or Herodotus. You won’t find him as assigned reading in any course on Jewish history. Perhaps on Jewish historiography. The standard today is probably still H. H. Ben-Sasson, far more up to date. Paul Johnson’s popular history is also well-regarded.
Graetz published long before Goitein was even born, certainly long before Goitein’s work on the Cairo Geniza was published. A huge amount of discovery and analysis has been accomplished in Jewish history since Graetz. Difficult to imagine anyone consulting him today as an accurate reference.
Wow, German universities sound tough, if they “fail” students who cite Wikipedia. Here we just caution them that such citations aren’t acceptable for a formal paper.
But this is far from a formal academic paper. This is more a casual conversation.
I’m not particular about the etiquette of citation. Here the MLA handbook is often used, but different disciplines have their own conventions.
However, without a specific title, author, publisher, and page number, it is very difficult to check any reference. Without such references, it is difficult to verify what you say. And the onus I think is on the person who makes the assertion.
I apologize if my tone has seemed intemperate at times. It’s easy to err that way when writing online.
Still interested in hearing why you object to ArtScroll.
Again accusation with no proof in evidence from the morally indignant heffa, please do point them out so that everyone can see, I welcome it and the scrutiny, and I have no objection to being corrected by my piers or my moral superiors.
You are at the very least a very dishonest person, as at no point have I ever proclaimed to be a prophet or to know His plan, I have also never claimed to be following in His way, unlike you I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am not a sinner, but what I do know is what he has provided me through the prophets to read, unlike the nazi propagandist heathen that you are, I don’t cherry pick what I want to believe to suit my needs, but accept it in its entirety, and accept all the warnings of things to come.
Unlike you, I do not try to negate them as meanderings of ancient old fools and selectively follow what suits my needs; All I am doing is preparing for what I believe is inevitable and will be with us soon. I accept my fallibility and know that there will be a time for paybacks at which time I will no doubt do some serious penance.
Now why all of a sudden do you seem to find the need or effort to use your degenerate little nose picking finger to engage the shift lock key in reverence to Him when until now you were indifferent to its value, this shows just how two faced a heffa you are. Respect for our Creator is religiously mandated in every context, not just when skanks like you determine its merits, and by putting a hyphen in place of the o prevents me from taking or uttering His name in vain even in a written form, but this too is way over the values of your two faced head.
Fortunately for me you would not know blasphemy from your rectum and as English is not a “sacred†language, and as I do not accept your definition of cursing, as any and all words in any language are no more than derivatives for descriptive emphasis, and don’t mean a damn thing other than that which they describe, in other words f*ck means to copulate and that when I refer to a walking talking asshole that means you, other than that they are just simple descriptive sounds forming words for interpretation and communication, and just because repugnant miscreants like you don’t like the animation that certain words imply and therefore determine them as cursing just does not make it so.
In finality G-d in His Devine wisdom does tell me and teach me to hate all evil, I repeat, ALL EVIL, He also teaches me that any and all forms of mahmudanisim and islam are pure and utter evil and are in no way of Him, and that any and all forms of defence of it, even that which you propagate and stand for are just as degenerate and evil. He also teaches me that I am obligated to despise evil at all occurrences and that when it strikes at either Him or the Jewish people I am obligated to defend it too my last breath.
Unlike you, I am a sinner and I know it, but I am neither the hypocrite nor the two faced degenerate bile spewing elitist islam defender that you have shown yourself to be.
Mal,
You are at the very least a very dishonest person, as at no point have I ever proclaimed to be a prophet or to know His plan, I have also never claimed to be following in His way, [. . .]
but above you wrote,
[. . .] and the great and wonderful G-d [sic] of Israel does bless me and shows me mercy every day of my life, every morning when I wake [sic] I know that I do this in His will and in His glory [. . .]
Unlike you, I do not try to negate them as meanderings of ancient old fools and selectively follow what suits my needs
You’re online on the Sabbath.
Now why all of a sudden do you seem to find the need or effort to use your degenerate little nose picking finger to engage the shift lock key in reverence [sic] to Him when until now you were indifferent to its [sic] value, this shows just how two faced [sic] a heffa you are.
Read closely and try to understand my explanations on when to capitalise and see when I capitalised. It might be worth considering that the god you refer to that
[. . .] in His Devine [sic] wisdom does tell me and teach me to hate all evil, I repeat, ALL [sic] EVIL [sic], He also teaches me that any and all forms of mahmudanisim [sic] and islam [sic] are pure and utter evil and are in no way of [sic] Him [. . .]
is not the god of Judaism as this is distinctely not part of Jewish doctrine.
DJ Stahl, to keep it brief as I haven’t got much time now:
the technical difference between roasting and baking is that baking cannot be done in dry heat as the moisture in the dough inevitably leads to humid heat. Roasting usually involves that the roasted good is being moved along a flame or a hot surface (think coffee beans or real toast) or a rotisserie chicken, often for a brief time at comparatively high heat in comparison to baking, so a turkey in an oven would actually be baked. This counts all when it comes to food as pottery is a different thing altogether; in German we say that pottery gets “burnt”. So the dictionary isn’t quite precise there, which goes to show that the editors sustain on take-out. 🙂
Please note that the order of entries under one term in a dictionary does not reflect common use or validity of use as you’ll find different orders across different dictionaries, less comprehensive editions (e.g. pocket editions or dictionaries as tiny as the Langenscheidt Liliput series, which is about the size of a thick matchbox) leave out definitions, but that doesn’t make those definitions less valid. As I explained above, the denotation I implied is in no way marked as uncommon, outdated, or archaic. To list the other entries would therefore be considered “banal” (banalities are also a sure way to get failed over here). It is therefore not incorrect to cite the third definition by any standard I had to adhere by as a student (of linguistics and literary analysis among other subjects) and the standards I (and the rest of faculty) request from my students. Please consider that the first round of PISA, the Program for International Student Assessment carried out by the OECD, which tested reading comprehension skills of 15-year-olds across member countries found that even American private school students have got severe problems contextualising. It can be expected from a 15-year-old to take the most precise pick among different denotations without listing alternative options. American private school students failed as badly at tasks demanding just that – they scored as low as German low-level or special ed high school students at age 15. While I don’t want to give PISA too much credit for several reason, it did show that American students have a hard time being precise. So, if what you lay out is the norm across American schools, namely to employ banalities, then there’s little surprise that American students didn’t do well at tasks that required them to be precise and to contextualise. (I’ve still got all the task sheets and press releases on the first round of PISA on an old harddrive as well as a longer essay that got to be presented at the Goethe Institut in Melbourne on press reception of and reflection on PISA; compare more than 70,000 pages of press coverage in Germany to roughly 70 pages in the US and Canada combined). From an educational and (German) academic point of view particularly with regards to academic output, my approach was not incorrect.
We are in agreement on that “colony” is used in English denoting what the Latin “provincia” means. As you appear to agree, the meaning of “colony” and “province” in English has changed in so far that the original meaning of “colonia” and “provincia” cannot be satisfactorily explained through either. To use “colony” for “provincia” therefore wouldn’t be confusing; it would be precise. I have seen no different in British history writing covering Roman life in Britain. The not uncommon thing to do, as you would do in writing a CV in a foreign language, is to employ the terminus technicus and to give the explanation in brackets or a parenthesis set off by commas or dashes or vice versa.
I referred to Graetz because popular history was employed in both the post as well as in follow-up comments. Graetz is particularly of interest when it comes to Medieval Central European Jewish history, to which the findings of Cairo or Qumran are of no influence (as they weren’t known to people back then, naturally).
I find the possibility that there may well have been Jewish life of some sort in Central Europe long before it was known – based on recent findings on how the Treverer legend actually had a lot of truth to it, that trade with the Middle East was conducted, and that there was a strong linguistic bond which would have made cultural exchange much easier – rather exciting to say the least. And it is in no event unlikely that this exchange took place considering that there was trade between Israel and Central Africa as well as the Far East and the Middle East way back as well, so distance did not matter all that much. (Let’s not forget the cultural influence East-Siberian shamanism had on Babylonian and Greek mythology and eventually also on Jewish customs.)
Oh, before I forget: there was trade between Trier and Koblenz (Confluentes), but at a later point – in Roman history. The Romans first cut a road across the Eifel, built a few villae there, and founded cities / settlements like Andernach (Castellum Antunnacum; that’s close to where CI Caesar would cross the Rhine River into Germanic territory), Bonn and Cologne before. They all predate Koblenz by a couple of years as far as is known, but their Roman roots pretty much overlap so it’s more of a petty race between those cities as to which one was first. There had been some sort of settlement in all locations before, some dating back to the Stone Age, but those were not city-like (traits typical of early cities include high population density within a confined territory, gainful employment not (only) in agriculture, hence a need for trade with the surrounding rural parts, certain administrative institutions / hierarchies etc.), but there is no evidence so far for Celtic trade via that axis, and, as I’d mentioned before, the shortcut via the Rhine River would have landed any Celtic merchants in hostile territory plus crossing the Rhine River wouldn’t have been an easy task. As far as is known, Romans introduced ships to the waterways here. A famous sculpture from around 220 CE depicts a ship loaded with whine barrels. It was found in Neumagen, about 40 kilometres down the River Moselle.
My objection to ArtScroll is the same objection I’ve got to Watchtower and like publications.
I’ll try to see whether any historical atlas of mine has also been published in an English edition. But please bear with me as I’ve got lots to take care of and it’s annoyingly hot these days (German homes haven’t got AC by default) and plenty of my books are still wrapped up in book shipping boxes as I’m building new bookshelves to organise them better (when it’s not quite as hot plus I’m not the most tool-savvy person around). (There are thousands of them as I prefer to get books for myself instead of checking them out from a library.)
Oh well, this wasn’t all that short… Anyhow, I go to NYC a lot, so if you like, we can continue this conversation over a cup of coffee at some point.
Ok, I’ve looked up maps in one historical atlas (Dr Walter Leisering (ed.), Historischer Weltatlas, Berlin 1997, 102nd edt.) I’ve now been able to dig out. None of the maps of the Antiquity in that one labels Asia Minor or any region in the greater area “Anatolia”. In addition to Asia Minor, there are Bithynia, Galatia, Lycaonia, Lycia and Cilicia from about 200 BCE until 117 CE. Assyria had shrunk to a small territory east of the Tigris River, in addition there were Syria and Phoenicia on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. Judaea at that point reached from the Golan in the North to the southern end of the Dead Sea in the South and slightly north-east of the Dead Sea in the North. South of Judaea was Arabia, which included Petra and all of the Sinai Peninsula. An economy map of the Roman empire shows trade routes reaching into the Far East, present-day Egypt, south into the Sahara, west as far as Western Europe extends and north as far as Britain with more extra-territorial routes than the aforementioned leading to northern Germany (Lübeck area) and the today-Baltic states (I once read Romans loved buying amber from the Baltic for crafting fancy drinking vessels). On another map, the Roman Empire under CI Caesar and Augustus still knows no Anatolia, but in its later location, Asia Minor has extended to cover Mysia, Lydia and Caria, then there are also Galatia, Lycaonia, Lycia and Pamphylia (as a combined territory / conquest), Pontus, Cappadocia etc. Assyria still is West of the Tigris River but has grown considerably as has Syria, partly at the expense of Phoenicia. Judaea has shrunk on its Eastern and Southern borders and now does not include all of the Dead Sea anymore. A later map of towards the end of the Roman Empire shows no Asia Minor anymore but a larger Lydia, Caria and Lycia in its place plus an extended Galatia; Judae has become part Syria, part Palestina.
The earliest mention of Anatolia I find in this atlas is on a map of the Osman Empire from 1326 to 1683 CE. There only a small bit of Anatolia extends into former Asia Minor, which has mostly been replaced by Germian, Karasi and Saruchan. Then a map of the area in 1550 labels Northern Turkey Anatolia and Southern Turkey Karaman. Then in 1740, Anatolia is determined to be located in the area of former-Asia Minor while the rest of today-Turkey is Karaman and Armenia. A map of Europe under Napoleon I. shows Anatolia to cover Western Turkey and it remains so after the Congress of Vienna, part of Southern today-Turkey then is part of Syria but under Egyptian reign. A pre-WW1 map of 1914 simply labels all of today-Turkey “Osman Empire” with a distinct Armenian territory, but the area is called “Turkey” in a map of the area at the outbreak of WW1 (Turkey joined on 2 November 1914), which it apparently remains to be called from then on. At that point, it covers parts of today-Iraq, -Iran, -Syria, -Armenia, and -Israel; areas which were subjected to the League of Nations after WW1. Afterwards, there are mostly changes on the Eastern borders of today-Turkey.
I’ve got more detailed atlases among the wrapped-up books, but this one already shows that Anatolia and Asia Minor have never been congruent territories at any point and “Anatolia” appears to be a much, much later term altogether.
For a precise interpretation of heffa please follow the link shown
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=heffa
Have fun grooming your lies. Anybody who cares can read above how I found you to be lying. In claiming to know His will, you are committing a severe act of blasphemy which bespeaks your ignorance of the religion you claim to adhere to. Using the hyphen instead of a vowel in “god” is nothing but bad spelling; it’s not religiously mandated cause last time I checked, English was not the sacred language of Jews. If you capitalise “god”, you use the word as a name which you may not do when a) proclaiming to know his plan, b) claiming you’re following his way (cf. a)), and c) cursing as in the context of all three it would be using His name in vain, i.e. as a tool. The capitalisation belongs into praise, not into rants or plain explanatory text. You’re not just a sinner, you’re a hypocrite for soiling the name of the Divine and His creation with your hateful conduct while claiming to follow His ways.
I hope you’ve at least learnt what Judaism has got in store for false prophets.
As I stated before, you are nothing more than a leftist bag of hell driven foul smelling hot air, you have never caught me lying as I have never lied, I have only stated my personal opinions.
I don’t need to read up the meaning of the word fascist as I am well versed in its meaning and see it exemplified in your espoused diatribe. You may consider yourself a contributor to this site but I see no evidence of value to your contribution. You are a cantankerous argumentative heffa with whom I have yet to see anyone agree with, if you consider this contributing, good luck to you on that.
I have also never claimed to be G-d faring or overly pious person and although I am the first to admit that I am one heck of a sinner, unlike you pathetic and worthless self obsessed soul, I am a 100% true believer in the one and only true G-d of Israel, not the conceptualised pile of camel dung you make up.
And although I am not in keeping with the Sabbath, the battle against our national interests does not cease on the Sabbath and as history has taught us, the enemies of our people like yourself know only too well when and how to attack us, whether it be verbally or militarily, my duty to defend is and always will be steadfast even on Shabbos.
In closing the truth in the glaring difference of which we are shows in the arrogance of your typed word, in all of your references to G-d, you are so worthless and lazy you literally won’t lift a little figure to engage the shift lock key to type out His name in capitol reference to simply acknowledge His station. Don’t forget to vigorously come out in defence of this now.
Well wishes from you are as worth full as well wishes of the puffti mufti of Jerusalem and about as meaningful, and the great and wonderful G-d of Israel does bless me and shows me mercy every day of my life, every morning when I wake I know that I do this in His will and in His glory and I thank Him for this and when the time comes I will be more than willing to pay to Him for that to which I am indebted to Him, without wilfully misguided question or misinterpretation, and if it means defending your heffa ass it’s what I will do no matter how distasteful it may be.
For a precise interpretation of heffa please follow the link shown
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=heffa
Froylin – Once again the shining beacon of arrogant ignorance lights up this forum, show us the money honey!
Please do point out a single statement of racism that I have made, show me one derogatory comment I have made against a single person of colour in the context of race and I will happily accept that I am racist. But alas, for as the lying worthless leftist that you are you can’t tell the difference between anti muhammadan and racist, your skewed left wing ideologue and arrogance can’t accept a point of view that differs from yours.
Unlike you I take the word of G-d seriously and at face value, I make no attempt to reinvent or diminish the meanings of what G-d states, some of us are born to be scholars while some of us are born to be warriors and defenders of the people.You on the other hand are neither, you would trade all that we are, our lands and our heritage for a false idealistic concept of peace with a nation that as a perpetual and eternal enemy bears us only ill will, an evil nation that will do all that’s in its power to wipe us from the planet.
You on the other hand are a worthless soulless coward, there have been many like you before and there will be many like you again, the kind, (I still do not believe you are a true Jew) of person that we are repeatedly warned of, a twister of truth and a detractor of facts and reality, a leftist historical revisionist negating Jewish authenticity and identity. I emphatically believe that you are only true to the belief in your own self worth and that misleading propaganda is your endgame.
In you blinded ignorance you misconceive fear for preparedness, while cowardly fools like you seek ways to piss away our heritage and the future of our people, I stand guard at the gates of Judaism, ready to defend and die to protect as is our G-d mandated duty, even if it means defending people like your skank ass.
Yes I know you would not want a racist like me protecting your worthless oxygen thief hide, but out there is a very brave soul, that will one day soon, have to do it, it’s why we are here. You are that terrified screaming turd that the fireman has to risk his life to go back for, all because you refused to deal with and take action all the while you were being engulfed in smoke still claiming that there was no fire.
As for me being a fascist, you claim to be of higher intelligence and yet seem not to know the meaning of the word fascist, surprising to say the least! I have absolutely no political ideology, I have a distinct disdain for any and all forms of politics and government, I do not believe that any single current political system can or ever will work as they are all financially and selfishly motivated, I believe in the total and absolute right of free choice of all people of all races to live in total and unhindered freedom from government and religious control where ever they may be.
I believe that our G-d given freedom is the most important attribute that would ultimately factor in to achieving a truly altruistic society. This cannot be achieved through any current political ideology of any type.
And finally to your unwelcome mat, it’s this intense need for liberal socialists degenerates like yourself to always shutdown freedom of speech and thought that contradicts you, which defines who and what you really are. It’s that inherent fear that we that sound the alarm bells will actually be listened to that frightens you most, the fact that we may muster support in defence of our cause threatens socialist liberal retards like yourself to death as we are not controllable by you smoke and bulldust antics and leftist philosophy so you would rather silence us than allow us the freedoms that you demand.
I do not ask you to leave, I do not ask you to shut the #*ck up either, on the contrary and unlike leftist fascists like yourself, I welcome your posts as they enlighten and show the mindset of what we face and what it will take to deal with it, and although I may not agree with you I still want to hear what you have to say so that I may learn about who and what you are as these are important factors as to the future of the Jewish people and their survivability.
So all the while you keep orating through the wrong orifice I will contently and very vocally continue with my calling, and yes I really do have a great life, and for this I thank G-d daily and I am ready to pay back just as soon as he calls, are you?
Online on the holy Sabbath, oh true believer?
And read up on what “fascist” means. The term fits you quite well.
I’ve caught you lying respectively trapped in your ignorance above. I’m a contributor to this site, you are not. If you were a decent, god-fearing human being as you proclaim to be, your register wouldn’t be what it is.
Farewell, Mal. May god have mercy on you.
The only thing that supersedes this Duitske talking heads arrogance is her ignorance and a lack of a true grip on life, she is so full of it and cant tell the difference between semantics and reality, you all need to stop getting drawn into her wasted life and let her move off to irritating worthless like minded left wing nut jobs like herself.
Hey Mal, still upset I don’t buy into your fascist little worldview driven by nothing but fear? Lovely. Hope you’ll have a great life. Racists like you are not welcome here.
ArtScroll is a standard source for religious Jews.
If you’re not confusing “orthodox†with “Orthodox,†then your objection to ArtScroll remains unclear.
You make an error in saying the key aspect is “infrastructure.†And certainly you’re making errors about technology and trade. Boats that traveled rivers 3,000 years ago were small. They didn’t need a particularly deep river. Often they could be portaged. You seem to believe that because large modern vessels have such a deep draught that the Moselle today needs weirs, that boats in ancient times needed them too.
Carlo Cipolla would often say, “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.â€
You also seem to assert that trade up and down a river valley only occurs via the water. Doubtful in the extreme.
The difference between “barrage” and “weir” is mostly a matter of diction. As Arlo Guthrie said, you can “roast a cake.”
The American Heritage dictionary you cite says “Asia Minor” and “Anatolia” are the same.
Your vague reference to any unspecified “historical atlas” is worse than citing Wikipedia.
You can try Theodor Mommsen’s _Die Provinzen, von Caesar bis Diocletian_ to clear up your error here. It’s a volume of his _Romische Geschichte_.
In the English translation, it’s p. 22 of Vol. VIII, “The Euphrates Frontier.”
Mommsen’s work is a century old, but probably still useful for this. In history as in other fields, sometimes a text can remain a reference for a long time, and sometimes it becomes outdated. You cited Graetz earlier; he’s generally considered out of date.
Your error regarding between “colony” and “province,” though, is somewhat significant, and a matter not just of diction but of definition.
Both in Latin and in English, the two are very different. And when speaking in English about a Roman matter, it’s particularly important to be precise.
In Roman usage, a “colonia” generally was a town settled by military veterans. In some instances, it simply was the term for a garrison town, of a particular status. Derives from “colonus,” a farmer.
A “provincia” was a country ruled by a Roman magistrate. Not necessarily distant; Provincia in France was adjacent to Italy.
In English as in Latin, a “colony” implies a community from the mother country settled in a new place, the culture different from the local. A broader meaning than the Roman use, but still quite distinct from a province.
You wrote:
<<". To employ the American Heritage Dictionary again, a colony is A region politically controlled by a distant country; a dependency. It is synonymous with the Latin “provincia”, but not with the English “province”>>
The American Heritage dictionary you cite gives your definition of “colony” as the third.
But the first one there is, “A group of emigrants… who… remain… intimately connected with the parent country.”
Do you think you’re being completely honest in citing the third definition without acknowledging the first? And you decry Wikipedia…
You say you’re near Koln. And just a country away from Provence.
I wouldn’t be surprised they’ve found a few Middle Eastern artifacts at some lower layers in digs near Trier. But that doesn’t mean there was much cultural contact. Such artifacts may trade through many hands.
Italy has had tomatoes for centuries, but this doesn’t mean they know much about the Lenape or the Mohawks, or spoke those languages.
Germany has had potatoes for centuries, but this doesn’t mean they had much cultural contact with the Iroquois.
Except via Karl May, of course, but he arrived centuries after the potato.
Sorry you’re creating a fog about the “Volcae.” I agree that Wikipedia is a casual reference, and I wouldn’t rely on it for anything important. Certainly not for anything controversial.
However, the articles do have footnotes, and they often may be useful. If you were saying something different from the Wikipedia article, with good citations, it might be worth debating. So far you haven’t.
The raid by the Gauls on Greece is famous, and mentioned in every history text. The statue is also famous, known to anyone who’s taken an art history class. And the history of the Galatians, in Asia Minor, also is well-known.
How are you doing with addressing the chronology problems in your argument? You don’t seem to have addressed that.
The Galatians arrived in Asia Minor around 2,300 years ago. The legendary Trebeta left for Trier 4,000 years ago. And the Jewish patriarchs lived, according to Jewish religious tradition, about 3,700 years ago.
No one I’ve read says the Galatians ever traveled west. They arrived in Asia Minor 1,700 years after the legendary Trebeta had left.
And Trebeta left hundreds of years before the earliest date for the Jewish patriarchs.
Secular scholarship is less certain about the patriarchs, and places the start of Jewish nationhood more recently than 3,700 years ago.
Thanks for the vague publication references. In the US the convention for citation is usually a specific title, author, publisher, city, and year. Page numbers are also helpful. In citing a journal article, the citation would name the author, the article, the journal, the date, and the page number. You claim that the German approach is more rigorous, but so far it seems much laxer.
You make an error in claiming that I’ve said the key aspect is infrastructure. I’ve said you’ve got a flawed take on what infrastructure was like, and it still remains flawed as an instance mentioned below clearly shows.
The difference between “barrage” and “weir” appears to be that there are more meanings to “barrage” than to “weir”, while the difference between “roasting” and “baking” is a technical one. You cannot roast a cake before or instead of baking, because dough is too moist for roasting, no matter what a folk singer says.
The American Heritage Dictionary does not say Asia Minor and Anatolia are the same, but that the terms are usually considered synonymous. However, I’ve laid out sufficiently above why this is not the usual case here as the reference was to Asia Minor as Roman territory.
I am absolutely honest in citing the third definition of a dictionary entry as a) the definitions must be listed in some order or another, b) a variety of definitions mean that a word can denote all of the described (If you called a person a “faggot”, would that mean you called them all of the possible meanings of that word?), c) there is no hint whatsoever that the definition I cited was in any way uncommon or outdated.
Thanks for repeating what I explained about the difference between “colonia” and “provincia” in Latin.
And no, saying you should refer to any historical atlas (preferably a recent one that can / does take data gathered through archaeology into account) is not worse than you reiterating your assertions based on what English Wiki pages say. I suppose you could also run a Google image search, but I don’t condone of violating copyrights by scanning and posting copyrighted material online, which often is the case with maps.
I hope you’re aware there’s a slight difference between travelling the Atlantic Ocean on a (funded) ship and travelling trade routes that could be covered on foot, on horseback etc. (a path the one or the other determined pilgrim still takes these days). I suppose in your attempt at creating an analogy, you’ve also read up on how the potato arrived in today-Germany and what it took to spread it. As I said, your take on past infrastructure is somewhat flawed by modern thinking.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt assuming that you simply don’t get the difference between maintaining ties and thus establishing cultural exchange and cloning culture in different locations.
Graetz is not generally considered out of date but has been accused of bias because of his politically tainted interpretations of history and his fervent language. (I know ultra-Orthodox take issue with his assertions of Dov Ber’s propensity for alcoholic beverages in lieu of charisma.) This is not to say that I don’t see his determination to differentiate and at that evaluate, but just because I agree or whatnot with his evaluations doesn’t make his factual works invalid. (Historical writing during those days smack in the middle of the conflict between nationalism, democratic tendencies and reactionary forces – the latter granted university positions BTW – was often politically flavoured.) However, since popular culture is often employed in religious argument, I think it’s fair to refer to the author who first compiled comprehensive works on Jewish history and the history of the Jews.
The “vague publication reference” I gave you was precise enough for you to find a whole host of literature on the matter with ease were you inclined so. And since we’re at suggesting books you’ll never read, how about something on the history of languages by, e.g., David Crystal?
Regarding citations, it’s conventional to also name the editor of a work and, if applicable, the series it was published in; it’s also the year the work was first published in alongside its number of edition. I’ve seen that most researchers in the US employ the same standards that are considered the norm in Germany, which means you don’t mention the publishing house. That would also mean that in citing a journal article, you’d reference the editor / editing organisation, the issue number + year. Page numbers conventionally go into footnotes but not into bibliographies in Germany (respectively into the annotations in the English-speaking world but not into bibliographies); I’ve not only seen that to be the case doing individual reading, but also in what was expected from us as standard procedure by our American professors. However, I hope you are aware that each and any professor is entitled to demanding their own standards of citation from their students just as academic journals require certain standards of citation from their contributors. There can be universal agreements between faculties on national and international levels on how to reference citations and bibliographies as has been done in Catholic religious education, but that is not generally the case so far. Note also that changes made in citations for abbreviating or grammatical purposes are signified by square brackets. So, if you were in any way familiar with proper citation, the entry from the American Heritage Dictionary you referred to above would have been cited as, “A group of emigrants [. . .] who [. . .] remain [intimately connected] with the parent country”, and not as “A group of emigrants… who… remain… intimately connected with the parent country.†(For comparison purposes, if anybody else still reads this, the original entry is, “A group of emigrants or their descendants who settle in a distant territory but remain subject to or closely associated with the parent country”). Note also that if you abbreviate a line you cite by omitting pieces of information, you must not change the intention of the original line through your omissions because that is dishonest. Note also that Wiki standards of citation are not the norm across publications. Now please stop giving me that faux-sophistication as you’ve clearly shown your lack of familiarity with the proper etiquette of citations. Did I mention German universities conventionally fail students that refer to Wiki?
What I wrote, just a couple posts up, is:
“The Orthodox view is that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (at Divine dictation) around 1,200 BCE. That’s the timeline in the ArtScroll, a fairly standard series.”
You respond:
“You seem a bit muddled in understanding what I said. You refer to ArtScroll as “standard” in context of a Jewish timeline, thus elevating it to generally accepted source of information, which it is not.”
??
I think I see the problem.
In normal English usage, “Orthodox” with an initial capital means “strictly-religious Jewish.”
The conventions of capitalization in English are different from those in German. Had I written “orthodox” instead of “Orthodox,” I think you’d be right to question this.
You’ll note I included the phrase, “at Divine dictation.”
ArtScroll is a standard in the religious Jewish community.
For translation, I prefer to recommend the Hirsch Pentateuch. But ArtScroll has many handy features, like charts and timelines. It also leans much to the right, so it’s appropriate to cite in this context.
You write:
“Regarding the Treverer, I’ve got essays included in books, which you can’t read.”
…still no citations.
If it were worthwhile, easy enough to have these essays translated locally. Plenty of people I know are native speakers of German. And I’m not far from a large university, which might have these books.
You write:
“As for Trier and how it’s linked to the Rhine River, let’s say you’re projecting modern takes on infrastructure on times far gone. The Moselle River only became navigatable over long stretches when barrages were built in recent history.”
Usually “barrage” in English is applied to tidal rivers. Weirs existed in many places in ancient times.
“Navigable” may depend on what sort of boat you mean.
And “long stretches” would more likely refer to upstream from Trier, more than downstream where the river would get larger. Cities are often built at “breaks in transit,” so it’s a reasonable inference that the Moselle was navigable from Trier to the Rhine, eighty miles away, to the boats used in ancient times.
And prior to barrages, or weirs, traders typically “portaged” around parts of rivers that weren’t navigable.
In any case, land traffic would have followed the banks of the Moselle. With the high mountains you mention, any trade, by land or by river, would have followed that valley. And your claim is that Trier had trade with the Near East in ancient times. Seems likely that Trier’s main trade was as part of the Rhine network, eighty miles downstream.
You write:
“When the Assyrian Empire stretched into nowaday-Turkey, not quite bordering in extension on what would centuries later become the Roman colony Asia Minor, there was no Asia Minor.”
In English usage, “Asia Minor” refers to the region primarily. The term is synonymous with “Anatolia.”
In English usage, there was no Roman colony “Asia Minor.” It was called simply “Asia.” And not a colony, BTW, but a province. Under the Byzantines, it became “Phrygia.” It included Pergamon and Ephesus, but not the eastern part of Asia Minor.
Similarly, writers in English have used the term “Palestine” for centuries, usually without intending to refer to the Roman, and later, Byzantine, province or sub-province that existed, in various shapes, from about 135 to 635 CE.
You write:
“Assyria, BTW, also covered all of today’s Israel, part of the Sinai peninsula, and stretched into today’s Saudi-Arabia and Iran from 900 to 607 BCE. That was well during the time of Jewish settlement in today’s Israel. To think that there was no cultural rub-off between groups that already showed shared cultural origins appears to be wishful thinking.”
If the legendary Trebata did found Trier, that may have been before the era of Assyrian dominance in Israel. Assyria in fact seized the northern kingdom about 723 BCE. And for a time after, it likely received tribute from the southern kingdom, Yehudah.
The Gesta Treverorum says Trebata arrived in Trier around 2,000 BCE.
Certainly Assyrian culture seems to have influenced ancient Israelite culture. Whether Israelite culture influenced Assyria is less certain. So a supposed emigration by Assyrians into Western Europe in ancient times may not have had much Israelite influence. Canada, for example, is heavily influenced by the US, but the converse is not true. There was the prophet Yonah…
The history I’ve seen says the Volcae, a Celtic confederation, formed in the neighborhood of Vienna about 2,300 years ago. Some went as far west as Toulouse, stopping along the way to settle. Others sacked parts of Greece, and some of these went further east, and became the Galatians of Asia Minor.
This is consistent with Jerome’s observation that the language of the Treveri resembled that of the Galatians.
Not clear how this relates to the legendary Assyrian, Trebata, heading west to Trier, about 1,700 years before the Galatians arrived in Asia Minor.
In English usage, referring to the timeline used by a certain publishing body is contextualising the reference.
It is not the distinction between “orthodox” and “Orthodox” that gives me the right to question your assertion, but the context in which you use the label “standard”.
Now, for Rineland-Palatinate again, it shows you don’t know the landscape and still apply your modern takes on infrastructure on circumstances that were utterly different back then. The American Heritage Dictionary defines barrage as [a]n artificial obstruction, such as a dam or irrigation channel, built in a watercourse to increase its depth or to divert its flow. This definition would go in line with my usage of the word, but it doesn’t support your claim regarding English vernacular.
Again, your wishful thinking of how it should have been is tainted by a modern understanding of infrastructure and a definite lack of “historical thinking”.
“Asia Minor” is a technical term in English as much as in other languages. The claim that it was simply called “Asia” is pretty nonsensical considering that the name given to it by Romans back then was “Asia Minor”. To employ the American Heritage Dictionary again, a colony is [a] region politically controlled by a distant country; a dependency. It is synonymous with the Latin “provincia”, but not with the English “province”, which therefore may be used in the name of Roman pronvinces as technical terms but does not convey the same connotations as “provincia” would have done to native speakers of Latin.
Also, look up “Asia Minor” and “Anatolia” in a historical atlas. You’ll see that they are not synonymous, and even less diligent language usage doesn’t make them be.
The history you saw on Volcae is taken from the English Wiki site, which is rather lacking to say the least.
I’m not sure whether you’re aware of that, given your city of residence, but cultural exchange happens through trade. It even happened during the Crusades, which brought Europe Gothic architecture, spices, etc.; it happened during the French war on Russia, which left a huge amount of French vocabulary in Russian just to name two examples. In conducting trade with the Middle East and in speaking a language the people there would understand as well as any German can understand Dutch (as long as both sides are sober), cultural exchange was inevitable.
As for sources on the Treverer, look up more recent publications by the Rhineland-Palatinate Landesamt für Denkmalpflege or the Rheinisches Landesmuseum Trier, which often serve as publishers for findings in local history. Beware though, even in translation it might be a tougher read than Wiki articles, particularly since German academic writing adheres to a different stylistic standard of being more elitist, more technical, less introductory and loaded with tons of footnotes, which makes such works less pleasant for casual reading than American academic writing, which rather goes for elaborate annotations at the end of a book and a style that serves to address and appeal to a broad readership.
And please, stop giving me that Wiki fodder.
Many people here love to wax poetic but often their method is hand-waving and playing loose and fast with the facts.
You are correct in demanding that Froylein defend the broad generalizations and ask for sources for these wild claims.
Yosef, anybody who refers to Wiki, and, as I’ve checked, doesn’t go beyond the introductory paragraphs on the Wiki entries and takes the information from there as is reflected in the highly similar wording, is not seriously interested in facts. Have you dedicated any time to reading any of the works I mentioned above? If not, well, difficile est saturam non scribere.
You seem a bit muddled, including in understanding what I said.
I never said ArtScroll is Jewish history. That’s a false attribution on your part. I said it’s a standard Orthodox source. It represents the Orthodox view of the date of the Pentateuch.
All the dates of what’s called “higher criticism,” which began among German Lutherans about 200 years ago, are more recent than 1,200 BCE.
Haven’t heard the Galatians ever were in Western Europe. Do you have a citation?
I am aware of the viewpoint that “there’s no Celtic ethnicity, race or language.” The current outlook of anthropologists inspired by Ernst Gellner, who say there’s no such thing as ethnicity of any sort. It’s usually associated with a Marxian perspective; Marxist doctrine generally rejects the idea of ethnicity or nation. This outlook is accepted by some historians who lean Marxian. However, I would not say it’s generally accepted, outside the Gellner school.
So regarding the Treveri evidently you have no citations.
Bibliography?
The Moselle River empties into the Rhine, eighty miles away. It’s what’s called part of the Rhine basin. Trier, on the Moselle, is in the state of Rheinland-Pfalz. River traffic on both rivers would have linked Trier with the Rhine proper.
Assyria included parts of Asia Minor as well as parts of Mesopotamia.
Assyria was a province of Rome for about three years, 116-8 CE. Its history goes back much further. The legendary ancestor of the Treveri, Trebata, is supposed to have been a son of Ninus, the legendary founder of Nineveh. Many centuries before it was seized by Rome.
I may be back here in a few hours —
You seem a bit muddled in understanding what I said. You refer to ArtScroll as “standard” in context of a Jewish timeline, thus elevating it to generally accepted source of information, which it is not.
It’s not just a viewpoint that there is no Celtic ethnicity, race, or language. It’s a fact. “Celtic” is an umbrella term for several tribes that couldn’t be classified as “Germanic”, “Slavic” etc. Original Bavarians are Celtic, their Bavarian language is totally different from and not related to other Celtic languages e.g. Welsh, Gaelic etc.
However, this was not about whether ethnicity existed in general.
Galatians were notorioisly members of a collective of Celtic tribes called “Volcae”. They came to nowaday-Turkey as hired soldiers and eventually settled there. (Just like the Hethite Uriah was a hired soldier and it’s a safe bet that those hired soldiers weren’t cherry-picked one from each tyribe at a time.)
Regarding the Treverer, I’ve got essays included in books, which you can’t read. (Assuming that German language teaching over there is comparable to English language teaching over here, you’d have a better take on German topography if you’d learnt German.)
As for Trier and how it’s linked to the Rhine River, let’s say you’re projecting modern takes on infrastructure on times far gone. The Moselle River only became navigatable over long stretches when barrages were built in recent history.
I happen to live in Rhineland-Palatinate and am keenly interested in local archaeology. Let’s say that your assumptions of how things must have been lack as one of my professors would have put it “historical thinking”.
Please note again that you’re talking about different periods in time that are several centuries removed from each other. When the Assyrian Empire stretched into nowaday-Turkey, not quite bordering in extension on what would centuries later become the Roman colony Asia Minor, there was no Asia Minor.
Assyria, BTW, also covered all of today’s Israel, part of the Sinai peninsula, and stretched into today’s Saudi-Arabia and Iran from 900 to 607 BCE. That was well during the time of Jewish settlement in today’s Israel. To think that there was no cultural rub-off between groups that already showed shared cultural origins appears to be wishful thinking.
History is like those three-dimensional puzzles where peaces might fit in shape in spots where they don’t belong as the complete image shows, and there can be repeated and similar patterns with the pieces not fitting in shape.
The Orthodox view is that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (at Divine dictation) around 1,200 BCE. That’s the timeline in the ArtScroll, a fairly standard series. The first commentary by Rabbi Shlomo Yitschaki, called “The Prince of Commentators,” explains how Genesis demonstrates the right of the Jews to the land of Israel. It’s from a Gmara. R’ Shlomo Yitschaki lived in Troyes around 1,000 CE.
As far as Judaism existing prior, the traditional view is that it began with the Patriarchs, before the Egyptian bondage, or about 200-400 years prior, depending on the commentator.
Noah is considered a saint, but not in the strictest sense a Jew.
A quick Wikipedia-walk doesn’t support what you say about the Treveri. It says that Jerome said their Celtic was similar to that of the Galatians of Asia Minor, but the Galatians weren’t all that near Israel, and arrived in Asia Minor relatively late.
The medieval _Gesta Treverorum_ claims the Treveri are descended from an Assyrian, a son of Ninus, the eponymous founder of Nineveh. Also in Asia Minor. Also not a Jew.
Trier is a city within Rhineland-Palatinate, Rheinland-Pfalz. It looks to be about 50 miles from the Rhine River, up a tributary.
Not saying you’re wrong about the Treveri-Jewish connection, but do you have any links?
Wait, you provide Wiki info? Makes perfect sense… Are you aware of when the Kingdom of David is supposed to have existed? And ArtScroll is as standard to Jewish history reading as the Watchtower is standard to gospel exegesis. I’m certain that you are aware that much of Genesis is Priestly Source, interpretatively and explanatorily written under the impression of the Babylonion Exile. The first story of creation (Gen 1 – 2a) is Priestly Source for instance.
And please try to understand that the heydays of the Middle Ages are much later than the Roman days, in which the Romans already referred to Trier as “Augusta Treverorum” – “the city of Augustus in the land of the Treverer”. (An aside, Medieval thinking is much more foreign to us than current Pygmy thinking. Medieval understanding for example had it that the youngest source written was the authentic one; a concept that appears rather bewildering to us now.) Do you know where Asia Minor was situated (hint, it’s even farther away from Assyria than Trier is from the Rhine River; Uriah and his wife stem from the area where it was going to be) and that it was a late Antiquity Roman colony? Did you know that the Galatians made a move back east after they had settled for a longer while in Western Europe? “Celtic”, BTW, is a collective term for various tribes; there’s no Celtic ethnicity, race or language. Also, again, I said that the Treverer maintained trade connections with the Middle East and not that the bulk of them were Jewish. As for literature on the matter, there are recent essays in German, which, adhering to the strict regulations publishers enforce here, only are available in print (at hefty prices, too). There’s no straight connection between Trier and the Rhine River as the highlands in between are rather rough with steep mountains. The track alongside the Moselle River is about 80 miles, the Roman road – the first paved one there – cut through the highlands north of Trier. It is generally understood that Trier was more dependent on the Moselle River development-wise than on the Rhine River, which would have required the Treverer to travel through hostile territory east of the Rhine River. Mythological, religious and language patterns bearing similarities from the Middle East, Eastern Europe and the areas of Western European Celtic settlement suggest there was no substantial contact between the Treverer & other tribes in their area and those living east of the Rhine River.
Editor, and JD Adler, a couple minor points.
As a recent writer pointed out — he’s a genuine former Communist Party member, and his book was a best-seller in France — the Romans didn’t issue a formal order of expulsion after the Bar Kochba War.
But they massacred hundreds of thousands of Jews. Shipped hundreds of thousands more out of the country to the slave markets in chains. Made it a capital crime for a Jew to attempt to return. And made it a capital crime for any ship captain to assist this.
And they changed the name of the country, and renamed Jerusalem “Aelia.”
By around 300 CE, the Jewish population was so sparse there, and the country enough like a dust bowl, that the Talmud project there, the Talmud Yerushalmi, was halted and left incomplete.
JD — you’ve left out the third part of Hillel’s famous response to the Roman soldier, “standing on one foot.” That is, a 25-words-or-less summary: 1) Do not do to another what you wouldn’t have him do to you. 2) The rest is commentary. 3) Go and learn that commentary.
Elsewhere Hillel offers another tripartite saying, this one, somewhat unusually, a “ko’an,” that is, stated as question, without a specific answer: 1) If I am not for myself, who will be for me? 2) If I am only for myself, what am I? 3) And if not now, when?
Consider duplicate bridge. Same hand of cards, played by different players. In earlier history, Jews were powerless, and had to manage as well as they could in that situation. Today, it’s the Jews in Israel who have the political power. And they have to decide how to manage that, as ethically, and as near to Jewish values and thought, as they can.
It’s not a matter of relinquishing all political power, as, say, the Amish do, relying on the Pennsylvania state police for their safety. Nor is it about blending with everyone else. If that were the priority, as Communists and others advocate, then who would be there to uphold specific Jewish values?
Can any of us say that there’s one system that’s optimal for all of humanity? Well, the Communists and the Islamists do say that, re their respective different systems.
But to claim to know that sounds unlikely. Even arrogant.
Far better that each culture have its own place to develop itself fully and optimally. Let each attempt to perfect itself, and become a role model that the rest of humanity would desire to emulate.
This was the principle that informed hundreds of communities in the US, and others elsewhere in the world. Oneida. New Harmony. Deseret.
This seems a more modest, realistic, less-oppressive path to attempt to improve the human condition.
I think this is the idea of Israel.
I like the tenor of the post. A couple details.
No one disputes that King Solomon ruled the state of Israel, perhaps around 800 BCE. The archaeology is clear. “Minimalists” only quarrel with the Bible’s claim that it was a large and powerful state.
The Maccabees threw out the Seleucids, who were successors to Alexander the Great — a Greek-speaking multi-ethnic empire, ruled from Antioch. The Maccabee dynasty became known as the Hasmoneans. Two Hasmonean brothers fought for the throne in 65 BCE, and one, Alexander Yannai, invited in the Romans to help him…
The first Jewish rebellion against Rome was of course 67-70 CE. When Rome quelled it in what was by then their province, Emperor Vespasian issued celebratory coins, stamped, “Judaea Capta.”
Simon the Christ launched the Bar Kochba War, 132-5 CE, and when the Emperor Hadrian quelled that, Hadrian decided to forestall further revolts by renaming Judaea “Palaestina.”
The Philistine people, who’d never lived much beyond today’s Gaza Strip, were conquered and marched into oblivion by the Second Babylonian Empire, ruled by Emperor Nabopolisar, about 606 BCE. Perhaps I can find the link to the article. No trace of them was left.
The Babylonians did much the same to Yehudah about twenty years later, the famous “Babylonian Exile” recounted in Jewish Scripture and in Babylonian records.
Contrary to pretty much every precedent, the Jewish community in exile survived and even grew. The Babylonian Jews, later known as the Iraqi Jews, became the center of Jewish life for many centuries, with Torah academies at Sura and Pumbeditha, in the general vicinity of Baghdad. The Talmud was completed there, about 450 CE.
Every other such transported people tended to assimilate away into oblivion. That the Jews did not deeply annoyed the historian Arnold Toynbee.
Herodotus, c. 400 BCE, mentions the Philistines. But he also says they were circumcised. He’s known for being undiscriminating about facts; he also says there are ants the size of dogs in India.
BTW Froylein, Jewish tradition says the first Jewish texts, the Chumash, were written 3,200 years ago. Wellhausen and his Lutheran critics say, only 2,600 years ago. More modern critics say, 2,900 years ago. (And Robert Alter says: is there any significance in the difference?)
So a date for Jews in the Rhineland 4,000 years ago sounds unlikely. But there seems strong evidence that a Jewish merchant community existed in southern France well before the Common Era.
Irish Goy, you need to read the narrative _before_ Joshua. And modern historians’ understanding, for example, Paul Johnson or H.H. Ben Sasson.
The religious Jewish view is that a) Israel was promised to the Jews from the moment of Creation. And b) that the Canaanites forfeited the squatters’ claim they had due to their immorality. Further, that Abraham and his clan settled there without dispute, as one among eight or so nations there. In fact, there are three or so spots that are especially without dispute — including Machpelah, in Hebron, purchased freely.
Modern historians are often skeptical of the Joshua narrative. They say instead that there were Hebrews in separate communities throughout the land, as far back as about anyone else. Another group of Hebrews, fleeing from Egypt, may have arrived, unified the Hebrews there under one banner, and seized the land in its entirety.
DJStahl, Trier is not part of the Rhineland; Judaism existed as a set of beliefs shared by a group long before the codification of its holy scriptures. Jewish foklore, not exegesis, attributes the authorship of the Pentateuch to Moses, which is believed to have existed well before 3,200 years ago, same for settlement. The oldest codified Jewish scripture is the book of psalms as far as can be told, which is approximately 3,000 years old. Would anybody seriously suggest there had been no Judaism before the time of King David? Now, Trier has been found not only to be the oldest city north of the European Alps but the folklore of its ties to the Middle East (that’s where the Treverer Celts stem from) has found more and more factual evidence, which would make it more than 4,000 years old. The Treverer were famed goldsmiths in an area that has got no natural resources in gold, which only gives a vague idea of how far their trade routes reached. It seems rather unlikely that there would be no Jewish life of some sort in one of the most important trade cities of the early post-Neolithical age, which also had trade connections with the Middle East and the community of which spoke a language closely related to Hebrew.
I wonder, how do you conclude from the stories of creation (there are two, the first one in the Bible stems from 587 BCE) that Israel had been promised to Jews ab ovo?
Irish Goy, recorded history depends on whether or not the Tanach is considered to be a historical document, most people would say no, so then according to those people the ‘land grabbery’ never occurred and the Jews were in “Palestine” for all of recorded history…or something like that (as far as I know, recorded history was in Egypt beforehand, but I also don’t believe that the Egyptians would have recorded the Jews’ seizure of Canaan, as far as Egypt was concerned the Israelites came down for temporary refuge during a famine intending to return to Canaan, but Canaan was their place of origin so…yeah)
“And you know why we were in Western Europe to begin with? Cuz we were told by the Greeks and the Romans – wait for it – to get the hell out of “Palestine,†where we had been living since the beginning of recorded history.”
Does recorded history exclude the battle of Jericho and the land grabbing that then went on in Canaan?
Seems Helen needs a history lesson or is it convenient historical amnesia.
goody we have a holocaust denying anti-Semite in our midst…what else is new?
Stu, by expressing your opinion you have proven Sarke’s point…
Furthermore, a my liberal (self proclaimed socialist)friend had a habit of saying, “everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinions.”
Thus I will not waste my time arguing with you. Good day sir! 🙂
Ah the anti Semitic cerebrally challenged degenerate Stu is back; Stu your worthless breading shines like a beacon of ignorance from within you, being anti mohammadan is not racist, and since I am not against people of any color at all that disqualifies me as a racist, just anti the occult of the Koran and its illiterate following. But you on the other hand, as a holocaust denier, an anti Semitic hater of Jews, pretty much prove who is the worthless petty little racist and bigot rearing its ugly head, but not to worry there is a time and a place for all deranged little turds such as yourself to get there come-upance, until then why not go back to high school and get a real education you may find that learning after the 6th grade that you did not complete, has an enlightening effect on intellectual retards like yourself. You also need to get a grip on that egregious Jew envy you have, it’s truly not our fault your life is a piece of crap.
Mal,
Stay the ignorant lying bag of crap that you are.
Nothing but a bunch of Zionist pigs here blowing hot air up each other’s butt as if you actually have anything to say other than die for israel and crush all others. You are all racist and ethnic murderers that the world despises. Your day will come, you can be sure of that.
Stu, that’s interesting. Israel’s supporters always make a point of stating that Israel serves as a refuge as well as a place that provides protection against those who would harm Jews. I guess you’re proving their point for them.
I guess this begs the question, who really gives a damn what the world thinks if we’re right…which brings me to the point of if European leaders dare not appease extremists how come they’re always crying out for the ‘poor helpless Palestinians’?
Also, even if the Cold War did disrupt societies (and I have no doubt it did), it didn’t become a ‘Hot’ War, and the main reason for that is the thought of retribution, the fact that, if I launch a nuke at him, he will launch one at me. The same principle is being applied today (until Iran manages to develop nukes that is…). The only time ‘the bomb’ was dropped was when the USA was the only one to have it, thus no retribution was possible.
As for your interpretation of Hillel, to me it seems like Hamas has no intention of creating anything resembling society or civilization in Gaza, so if they’re not interested in society in Gaza, we shouldn’t have to be either.
Froylein I suppose you are correct and, as you’ll note above, I sort of advocated against Israel declaring nukes for the same reason.
However, in a semi-civilized society the system I am suggesting should work (again I’ll refer to the Cold War as an example).
Then again…if they really don’t value their lives why should we, or anyone else, care for that matter?
To paraphrase Hillel once again, one must be for oneself if others are to be expected to support the one…
Jeremy, that way you’d just play into their hands as recent events have clearly shown.
I get a feeling that you don’t know how many innocent, uninvolved victims the Cold War claimed. It disrupted societies. European unity has been a lot of work over the past few decades and has been led by outstanding political figures that dared not to appease extremist, forever-stuck-in-the-past electorates.
To explain Hillel, one cannot be a full, self-aware individual if one isn’t capable of altruism. One cannot shift one’s responsibility for society at large onto somebody else or to a later point in time.
That’s what Hillel said.
Froylein, the equation being 1 = -1 is my whole point. The jail system does not effectively and justly punish the criminal, hence 1 human life cannot under any circumstances equal x years in jail because no matter what value is given for x 1 will not equal -1. The units are incompatible.
Jeremy, do you really think this’ll work with a mindset that has brought us suicide bombers and the use of infants and schoolchildren as human shields if only just to draw media attention? To those extremist forces, the sacrifice of human life is a no-brainer apparently.
Mal and CK…I’d also like to point out that even if one can prove Islam to be a true religion based on the prophesies of Mohammad, there is still no mention of Jerusalem or even Israel as a holy land for the Muslims. That too was invented later on as a way to eradicate the Jews.
Froylein, perhaps you are correct that my system would not work perfectly, but it sure as hell beats the world condemning Israel for every move she makes to defend herself. In my opinion, an eye for an eye does not make the world go blind because people catch on that there will be consequences for their actions (and not just stupid UN bullshit sanctions either). Real crimes deserve real punishment equivalent to the crime committed. To attempt to put a value on human life is to justify killing. On a smaller scale, the same can be said of any other crime. ‘Capital*’ and # years in jail are two completely different scales that cannot be interchanged.
More math: 1 human life = x years in jail, find x
1 human life = priceless therefore x does not exist.
Conclusion: no matter how many years are served in jail, the value of the human life they took is not repaid.
Second conclusion: # years in jail cannot be used as a conversion unit from $, lives, or any other crime. The units are incompatible…
*Capital here is being used as a general term for ‘life’, ‘liberty’, ‘currency’, and ‘the pursuit of happiness’ (in other words, similar to the Communist definition).
Jeremy, it’s been a few years, but one of my majors was mathematics, and the calculation you make up is 1=-1. That’s why I didn’t work in Northern Ireland either.
No ck, he was an evil sadistic war lord that used religion as a political tool to carry out his campaign of genocidal madness, it was his so called disciples and followers who later turned him into a religious leader, as for your point that my statement is bollocks, again I demand of you to have the courage of your convictions and prove it, there is more than sufficient evidence that proves neither the Palestinians nor the nations of islam have any real desire for any lasting peace with Israel and are committed only to its eventual surrender and end as a Jewish state so as to absorb it into the collective of Arab nations, now prove me wrong or accept that you are no more than a die-hard liberal and an ignorant liar?
Stu, stay the inbred idiot you are, you are a shining example of why abortion may be a preemptive necessary right to save mankind.
The holohoax myth has already been debunked. Your bloody revenge is based on no more than hyperinflated numbers and leaves out vital facts such as that the Jews declared war first on Germany. Jews started WWII and the U.S., poor sucker, ended it with their own blood. Scumbag jews.
Oh my. Looks like someone didn’t take their meds this week. What is it crazy comment day today or something? Stu? I could delete your comment, but I find that usually the best argument against the type of bullshit you’ve been spewing (SO much in one short paragraph!) are your own words. Thanks for popping by and showing us all how utterly dysfunctional and batshit insane holocaust deniers and anti-Semites are!
I agree with the website. Jews are living on stolen land. Until they admit that and remove themselves there will never be peace and Jews will continue to shed everyone else’s blood except their own. Jews are the scourge of mankind.
For all the ignorant gullible fools out there, get educated make a case on fact not fiction, here is a refrence to Israels future and the hopelessness to an Israeli future without war.
http://palwatch.org/
My apologies!
prove that he was more than a murdering pedophile and a blood thirsty war lord?
No problem ck, simply prove it, show me the facts that I am wrong, prove he was a prophet in even the mildest form of the term, prove that he was no more than a murdering pedophile and a blood thirsty war lord?
Mal. Just like I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, I also do not believe in the divinity of Mohamed. And yes Islam is unique in the sense that its founder was a religious leader and a warrior and a political leader. But keep in mind what the Israelites did to the Canaanites. Hardly peaceful. I’m not knocking it – it was God’s will after all! In any case, I’m all for tolerance and your comments are so over the top that they in effect amount to a load of bollocks. But thanks for stopping by!
There can not and never will be peace in Israel, the only way hostilities will ever cease in the Middle east, is when Israel no longer exists, that is and will be due to the cowardly liberals having surrendered the land and Jerusalem to the mohammadan barbarians, to achieve “peace in our time†at which point humanity will cease to exist, as the barbarian mohammadans will then turn their attentions on conquering the remainder of what is left of the free world and relegate the planet back to the sixth century.
Please note, and as I strongly disagree with the talking head, I refer to the mohammadans as barbarians as I do not believe or accept for even a single moment that mohammad was ever anything other than a vile vicious murdering pedophile, and since the Jews were driven out of Israel there have been no more prophets on earth at all, and the only true G-d would never have dealt with such a murdering scum sucking pig such as him.
To acknowledge either mohammad or islam as a religion or to be of G-d is to accept satanism or devil worship as legitimate religions, maybe the talking head can but I am simply unable to do that for as long as the one true G-d of Israel rules this universe, there can never be place for mohammad and his fellowship in his house.
OMG what a load of bollocks.
well said. no – really, really frickin’ WELL SAID!!! keep up the good work…
Jeremy, I’ll blame your youth for not knowing that what you suggested wasn’t working in Northern Ireland for centuries, hence the eventually peaceful approach.
PLEASE FORWARD TO HELEN THOMAS:
Say, Helen, now that you have some time on your hands, you could use a little something to do, right? There’s a great program you should attend at Appalachian State University (Boone, NC)starting July 18, 2010. It’s the 9th Annual Holocaust Symposium. After spending decades supposedly reporting the facts, it’s time you learned them.
Click on the link: http://www.news.appstate.edu/2010/05/21/9th-annual-rosen-summer-symposium-%E2%80%9Cremembering-the-holocaust%E2%80%9D-begins-july-18/
themiddle, as the great Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook put it, some Jews are needed to study and some Jews are needed to fight. A balance of both is necessary in order for the Jewish peoples to survive. (Obviously I’m paraphrasing, but it gets the point across.)
As for forcing the Arabs to do national service…I agree with Yosef that they won’t go, and I also think that would be a bad idea. I imagine that mass mutiny would occur as soon as the first conflict with an Arab nation were to occur. (It’s also never a good idea to have soldiers who really don’t give a damn about the country they’re supposedly fighting for, let alone soldiers who believe the country they’re fighting for doesn’t exist and should be destroyed…)
There is no more that we can do, it has become purely a numbers game, 2 billion to 13.5 million the odds are not in our favor, its like watching dandelions take over the lawns, without the proper control methods are applied the infestation can’t be stopped and where there is no will there is no way. We are getting screwed into oblivion by the biggest con ever imagined.
Lorna, I suppose that make sense too…
I am 54 years into wondering what more we Jews could possibly contribute to society to be accepted as humans. Thank you for your direct, sarcastic presentation…supported by facts. If anyone actually CARED about facts, we could all move forward.
Mal, at this point I’m not even sure that a quorum of Gazan peoples that support the existence of Israel would be enough.
As the article I posted earlier stated, what good is an opinion if you’re not going to vocalize it, and if somebody is brave enough to vocalize it, that person is shunned by the public (whether or not they agree with him) and executed by Hamas…
Also, your math appears to be flawless and the conclusions thereof seem solid enough to me.
As I posted earlier, the world condemned Israel for her preemptive strike on Iraq, but later came to realize that Israel was correct in her actions after all, but that was about 20 years ago. Nowadays, if Israel were to attack Iran, the world would not only shun Israel, but would probably inflict some kind of ‘disproportionate’ penalty on Israel as well.
However, what everything all boils down to is this, everybody is too f***ing busy playing the ‘blame game’ to actually get anything done. The left blames the right, the right blames the left, name calling ensues, etc. Basically what’s been happening here…
Enough!
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in the [almost] 20 years I’ve been alive it’s that whatever your connection to the Jewish faith, you are a Jew. Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, secular, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Lebuvitch, etc. are just labels to try to divide us. I know there’s the old saying “two Jews, three opinions,” but honestly, if we could look beyond our differences we’d be able to fight our adversaries more effectively.
Did the Nazis ask if you believed you were Jewish or not? No.
Do the Arabs care whether the Jews they slaughter are ‘progressive’ or ‘conservative’? No.
We can settle our differences later when we’re not in dire danger. In the meantime, let’s focus our attention on dealing with our true enemies. United we could put our combined brain power to good used finding solutions to Israel’s problems, political and social. Divided we will bicker and bicker until we are destroyed.
It is indeed amusing how the focal points of the current world situation are skewed and veiled by irrelevant obscurities. The topic, of this thread, and the article above, has been lost completely. So before the talking head can again spew its redefined all is fine and safe with the world ideology lets recap.
The simple facts as they stand display a rise in anti-Semitism not seen since 1933. Is it all Arab wahabism ideology, is it all of islamic fundamentalism, probably not. But are these catastrophic problems facing not only the Jewish people but the world at large, let’s look at the math. If 10% of Arabs/islam shares the sentiment of Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah, it gives the Jewish people over 150 million enemies in the world. During the reign of Nazi fascism there weren’t even 100 million Germans during World War 11, there weren’t even 5 million nazis yet we know how well they managed to orchestrate and carry out their extermination plans. A nation does not need the whole world against them to face an existential threat. There were Germans who had no beef with the Jews, and Germans who covertly assisted Jews to escape death. Yet more than 6 million Jews died due to the will of but a single mind that managed to convince and indoctrinate more than half a nation, 150 million is no small threat, are there 150 million? Without a doubt the math will bear it out.
I agree with the author in that our historical and G-d given rights to the Land of Israel are neither respected nor considered today. But there is a beauty herein in that we can rely on basic definitions of right and wrong when we defend our land and our people, even without reference to our rights to the land. Liberals believe that it is somehow offensive to speak the language of right and wrong but fail to learn the lessons of the history they love to spout and that is that appeasement only makes the aggressor a lot more aggressive.
It is a simple assertion, that while not all Arabs and Christians are anti-Semitic, of the people in power, who have the ability to harm Israel, are lot of them are indeed anti-Semites. While it is beautiful and comforting to hear support for Israel, and to meet people who have the intelligence to see and seek out the truth, it is the opponents and enemies of Israel who we have to focus on, because they have the tremendous power to harm us. The people who love us are not in a position to protect us. Obama himself is if not an open anti-Semite and a hater of American capitalist values, he is indeed one of our greatest and most dangerous enemies and threats. Not only to us as Israel and Jews, but us as Westerners who love freedom and democracy, whether Jewish or Christian.
To say that Obama, the Arab League and the UN Security Council are fascist dictators is grossly politically incorrect. But it is such because it is true. By the talking heads own definition Obama obliterates and determines who lives and dies with his drone program, the very same drone program he wishes to introduce into American Air space as a deterrent to domestic terror. The truth is calling this unholy trinity fascists upsets all those opposed to it. So they seek to crush all its opponents and distorted its reality.
The very real and existential threat against Israel and the Jews is as grave as it was in 1933 and centuries before. Every statement released by the above mentioned fascists always begins with “Israel has the right to defend itself”, but when Israel actually exercises that right, she is condemned. At this point in time a pre-emptive strike against Iran is Israel’s only recourse to prevent them from going nuclear. Yet when she does so, the world will cry foul and will decry Israel’s action as evil and disproportioned.
The aberrantly double standards set by current world leaders shoes the anti Israel/Jewish bias as, as the South Africa leaders recalled its ambassador to Israel following the Flotilla raid. South Africa’s neighbors, Zimbabwe and the Congo are lead by cold-blooded murderers, yet South Africa and the rest of the world remain silent. If Flotillas were approaching U.S. waters, they would be sunk after unheeded warnings. How many Americans and Europeans have to die at the hands of terrorists before Israel will be justified in defending itself against the imminent threat of destruction? How many have to die before the threat of the Arab/islam world is taken seriously? Arabs/islam don’t want to live side by side with Jews or Christians. They want to destroy America and Israel, and reign in a world ruled and dictated by Muslim ideology.
Contrary to what the world leaders and progressive groups want us to believe, the world is not filled with loving people who have a soft and warm creamy centre. The enemies we face are real murderers and killers. They are evil and toxic. Israel cannot afford to negotiate with its neighbours and regional foes. Israel, now more than ever, needs to take decisive action to ensure its survival. It is regretful that Israel did not do so before the current Obama administration, but Israel is now hopefully learning that she is neither answerable to or can bank on Obama or any of his gangland buddies.
Israel must do whatever she needs to do to ensure her survival. The West and Israel need to use the upper hand they have at present to defeat the scourge of Islam, before Muslims are too great in numbers in Western countries.
When G-d destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah he extended Abraham the opportunity to find only ten genuinely good men, one Jewish quorum was all that was required to have saved the people of those cities, his failure to find them led to their total and absolute annihilation. By the standards set forth by the international community that would be considered a disproportionate response, but G-d had looked far into the future and had seen the damage and horror their continued existence would create and acted accordingly, he necessarily destroyed the evil. Through this lesson, should not the leaders of Israel determine the future cost of continued violence and terror from Gaza and the remainder of the middle east when calculating proportioned response, does not a preemptive position also qualify as proportionate response, Hezbollah is sitting on over 20 thousand rockets that have only one purpose, do Israel not have the right to eliminate such a threat with extreme prejudice, will any other free nation tolerate willingly its neighbor pointing thousands upon thousands of war heads and rockets at its civilian population, only countries where the dirty little Whitehouse sticks its nose into have to live by these standards, could you even find a quorum in Gaza that will support the existence of the state of Israel?
themiddle,
You wrote “a government can make laws, just as they conscript plenty of soldiers who would rather not spend 3 years of their lives in the army”
Is Israel supposed to act like the Soviet Union and force parents to teach their children an ideology (in Russia it was Atheism)?! 🙂 Send them to Siberia otherwise?
They WON’T GO! Just as they can’t force some Hareidim to go – you can’t FORCE people to go against their convictions.
This is the problem with many leftists. You guys live in a make believe world where you think you can “train” people to believe what you believe!
How silly.
Yosef, I’m not a leftist or a rightist. I’m a pragmatic realist and a centrist. You are an extremist. Israel should force the Haredim and the Arabs to do national service. Period.
The slight issue with that is international backlash, but that’s mainly just more of the “disproportionate response” bullshit anyways.
Another potential problem is that nuking Gaza or Lebanon or Syria would have fallout issues in Israel, so the smarter fanatics (if such a thing actually exists) would realize it to be a) a bluff, or b) a double bladed sword that would still help them achieve their goal.
Remember a lot of these fanatics don’t care about death, hence the suicide bombers. All they care about is their so-called jihad and the glory of Allah (not to mention the 70 virgins they allegedly get in heaven). Thus, if Israel were to nuke Gaza, and the fallout killed people in Israel, the remaining fanatics would call the Gazans martyrs and rally even harder against Israel in the process…at least that’s how I’m fairly sure these things work.
Agreed but a declared nuclear arsenal would be a strong deterrent against any further precursory attacks, as long as there is an element of doubt they will continue to provoke. At this juncture I have grave concerns about the huge armaments build up an all three Israeli fronts, knowing Hezbollah’s and Hamas’s history and the proven treachery of the Syrians, this is becoming a very alarming situation with a very real probability of a major conflict braking out this summer.
Mal, I agree that the current situation causes the effects you were describing, and that is perfectly justifiable in this instance. (This is another instance of reacting to living in a realistic world as opposed to an ideal one).
That said, taking a lesson from history, the only reason the Cold War didn’t get ‘Hot’ was because everyone was afraid of retaliation, i.e. if the USSR launched nukes, the USA would launch nukes and vice versa. This is a clear demonstration of how effective the “eye for an eye” system would actually be.
Froylein, if you think about it though, “an eye for an eye” is the ideal governing system. It may not be the most ‘enlightened’ system, but it certainly required everyone to take responsibilities for their actions.
In my opinion, people would be a lot less likely to kill someone if they knew that the punishment was to be killed themselves. Letting people off with anything less is like justifying or belittling their crime.
As for the whole gauge system, that’s just international bullshit used to pick on Israel. “Disproportionate responses” cannot occur if for every 1 rocket launched at Israel, Israel launches 1 rocket at the organization responsible. Thus in its purist form, “an eye for an eye” neither makes the world go blind, nor causes so-called “disproportionate responses”
Jeremy you are a breath of fresh air, but should it not be that as we are first and foremost morally bound to preserve Jewish lives that:
a) preemptive strikes are perfectly and morally legitimate and acceptable to prevent an attack on home soil
b) and that in the event of an attack on home soil and the need for retaliatory strikes arises, these strikes should be effective enough so as to permanently eliminate any future threat.
With this in mind and as all super powers collect as a deterrent nuclear muscles with which to protect the citizenry that the theory of disproportionate response is nothing more than an islamic and international whipping stick to limit Israels right of retaliation.
No country other than Israel is subjected to these hypocritical rules. It may at this point be better for Israel to declare its nuclear arsenal and to begin to use it as a warning of what lengths will be gone to to protect the state, I believe with oddball in the white-house they may soon be forced to anyway.
Froylein – And I have absolutely no idea what prevented you from understanding the simplicity of what I said that led to your great rambling drivel, I had thought of going into your response in detail but have come to realize that it would be a pointless and redundant cause. From being a historian and geo political scientist to world economics wizard you just simply have all the answers and can’t go wrong, you are the ultimate rabonim who has all of life’s solutions, with people like you around I just simply can’t understand why we aren’t the most admired and endeared nation on the planet, but then again as I have come to the conclusion that you are without a doubt the most pigheaded, self indulgent, arrogant and disingenuous twat I have ever interacted with that I might not be alone with this thought.
I have only one question left, When do you walk on water?
Mal, I’ve never claimed I can’t go wrong. I’ve also never insisted on that people must not disagree with me.
Your (hardly coherent) comments contained untrue bits of information and accusations that I felt right to respond to. If telling the truth and backing my opinion and resisting downright lies makes me the most pigheaded, self indulgent, arrogant and disingenuous twat [you] have ever interacted with, I’m ok with that. At least you’ve shown sufficiently that you’re a potty-mouthed person to who honesty and facts don’t matter. Bravo. You’ve done yourself a great favour. Now don’t blame me for catching you lying.
oh, regarding the line “treat others as you would like to be treated yourself” (or, going back to Kedoshim from which this line is taken, “love your neighbor like yourself”), I’d like to do a little mathematical inversion if I might.
Given: One must treat others in a manner that they themselves would like to be treated.
Question: Is turnabout fair play?
Solution: If all people are supposed to treat other people in a manner that they would like to be treated, then it ought to be perfectly acceptable to treat that person in the same way s/he treats you. Ergo, if person A launches a rocket at person B, it can be implied by the given statement that person A is treating person B in the manner that person A would like to be treated. Thus person B can launch a rocket at person B…
Inversion: It is permissible to treat others as they treat you.
Conclusion: Turnabout is indeed fair play
…whew that’s a lotta math.
Jeremy, the problem is the gauge. “An eye for an eye”, means “the punishment shouldn’t be more severe than the crime”. Israel frequently gets accused of “disproportionate” responses, but nobody on the world stage ever says what a proportionate response would be as the often-suggested alternative option appears to be negatively disproportionate.
To all those following the discussion:
Here are some nice links and facts:
http://www.jewishactivistnetwork.dreamhosters.com/#facts_enemies
There are links with direct articles and with clarity point by point.
-Mufti of Jerusalem with Hitler in the 1940’s and before
-Arafat a Nazi sympathizer
-Picture of today’s ‘Palestinian’ salute click
-Abbas, the ‘moderate’ PA leader is a holocaust denier
-Mein Kampf – a best seller in the Arab territories click
-Israel does not exist on PA maps
-Palestinian Authority’s current charter, adopted in 1968, states: The term ‘Palestinian’ is a temporary facade and a means to an end. They are in reality part of the ‘Arab Nation’ [Articles 12-15].
-Israel must be destroyed and replaced with an Arab state [Articles 21-23].
-Arabs left Israel in 1948 at the request of their Arab brethren in order to allow the invading armies to attack Israel
Notice the difference between the historical facts I and others present vs the rhetoric devoid of facts by the leftist liberal commenters who chastise us for not having ‘reputable sources’ – in the meantime i have given those and they have talked up a storm with no substance presented.
Molly,
You are very right – the very real threat posed to Israel as a Jewish state by Arab-Israelis must be dealt with.
Yosef, you have proven nothing. ck and I have posted numerous times about the intentions of the Palestinians, their charters, their propensity to enjoy the Protocols and Mein Kampf, etc. So what? This has nothing to do with your wish to physically remove Israeli citizens who are Arab non-Jews from their homes and from Israel entirely by pushing them out. ck has already schooled you about the mistake you are making regarding basing your bias on ethnicity and I have explained to you that before you talk about a people as the enemy, you could at least try to integrate them (your lame excuse, that they don’t want to is a joke since a government can make laws, just as they conscript plenty of soldiers who would rather not spend 3 years of their lives in the army) or find other ways of making peace. You could, at least, make a proposal like Lieberman’s, where at least he doesn’t evict them from their homes, just cuts a parcel of land and attaches it to the new Palestinian state. That is challenging enough to accept, but you are talking about ethnic cleansing.
froylein,
“Reputable sources” ?? 🙂 Below I give the most reputable sources you can find the Arabs themselves.
See below in another post to you and ck.
I refer to action of violence and the fact that they will advocate for and vote to change Israel from a Jewish state and cahnge the Hitikvah and make Israel Judenrein as they have done and demand be done in all areas under Arab dominion.
‘political category’ did I say that? Again leftists build straw men and then attack it.
If your definition of Arab isn’t political, then what is it? And I haven’t attacked anything. What I did was paraphrasing what I understood you meant to say to see if you agree. Your definition of “Arab” was a political one, a category Neturei Karta would fall into as well.
And you, also, have got no indications as to what my political leanings are. You’d be hard-pressed to find sentiments by me that you won’t find among any party of the centre political sphere (not among the far-wing right or left though).
And yes, there is such a thing as reputable sources. I know the sources you listed and I don’t doubt them. The sources I listed were in reference to a wrong notion (more than one actually) on Medieval European Jewry.
CK,
I don’t know what you mean – so you wear Arab garb enjoy.
Its not by “dint of their ethnicity” I see you build a straw man and blow it down. Its by dint of their actions. See below and quit this nonsense of your visiting Abu Gosh – below I give the ‘moderate’ PA words.
A damn good article. Sassy and articulate!
The only comment I would make is that in his book “Saving Israel: How the Jews Can Win a War that May Never End” Daniel Gordis makes the observation that the “evacuation of Gaza” could also be referred to as a “population transfer” which is advantageous as it builds the rhetorical linkage between the Jews leaving Palestinian lands and potential Palestinians leaving Jewish lands. The high birthrate of Arab-Israelis may pose a future threat to the state’s Jewish majority.
Otherwise brilliant.