}

Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish loses three daughters and a niece in Gaza

You’d have to be a cold and heartless person not to sympathize with the sorrow felt by Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish. In this clip he is on the phone with veteran Israeli Channel 10 Newsman Shlomi Eldar. Abu al-Aish cannot contain his anguish, asking Eldar over and over again “Why Shlomi, why?” Eldar for his part, has a hard time maintaining his composure as well. Haaretz reports:

When Channel 10 called him on Friday, he answered the phone crying that his house in the northern Gaza strip town of Jebalia had been hit by Israeli shells and his daughters killed. Eighteen members of his extended family were in the house at the time… Israeli TV said initial reports indicated that a sniper had fired from either the family’s building – which friends quoted by TV said they doubted – or nearby, and the Israeli infantry responded with a tank shell… Abu al-Aish was able to arrange the transfer of two injured daughters to Israeli hospitals – something that has been extremely rare during this conflict. The Israeli army also for the first time allowed a Palestinian ambulance to go straight to the Erez border crossing, where the injured were transferred to Israeli ambulances… From there, they were taken by helicopter to Tel Hashomer hospital in Tel Aviv.

Dr. Abu al-Aish, who was trained and worked in Israel, had been calling in to Channel 10 on a regular basis, providing reports on the situation on the ground in Gaza. He was clearly much admired by his colleagues in Israel and the journalists that got to know him. After the airing of this show, channel 10 was flooded with calls by people expressing concern for his and his family’s welfare as well as anguish and sadness at his loss. The IDF stated that the Doctor’s home was hit by a tank shell after sniper fire was reported from the area. Whatever the reason, this was clearly a monumental fuck up – tragically happening on the day before an expected cease-fire.

No doubt much will be made about this horrible tragedy by those seeking to exploit it for political gain. All I can do is extend my heartfelt condolences to Dr. Abu al-Aish as well as all the other innocent civilians who lost their lives senselessly in Gaza. Our hearts go out to you and we feel only sadness and regret at your loss:


Gaza Celebration of Terrorist Attack on Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva

Follow me

ck

Publisher at Jewlicious
Founder of Jewlicious? Publisher? Man I hate titles. I coined the name Jewlicious and I slave over the site. I live in Jerusalem and I need to get some breakfast.
Follow me

113 Comments

  1. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 1:09 pm

    yeah i can see how sorry you are at his daughters death, and at the same time you are showing gazans suposedly celebrating a terrorist attack.

    do you want me to post links to pictures showing israeli kids writing messages on israeli missiles and bombs, such as “good day arabs, this is a gift”

    or do you want me to post pictures of american jews celebrating the first few days of the iraq war where people died in their thousands?

    your sorrow is false, cut the crap, no palestinian or arab has asked for jewish sympathy, so dont give any of your so called sympathy, if you hate be honest, no one will judge you for it, dont be a prik and play both sides of the camp.

    an honest arab hating jew is better than a jew who “shows” his smypathy for dead palestinians,the world or arabs dont need your sympathy, we arabs survived destruction by the mongolians,we survived the crusades,hell we even survived under the palgue, we are definitely going to survive you and the americans

    listen to your rabbis,they call us amalekites, so please dont post such nonsense of showing sympathy, read your history and your holy books, jews dont do “sympathy”.

  2. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 1:17 pm

    this doctor trained in israel, so that makes him a good arab???

    he gave information to an israeli channel, it seems he was mighty chummy with the jews, and his reward, the death of his daughters,so it proves even friendly arabs are gonna get the stick of the idf, well thats fine, if palestinian arabs are meant to suffer, they are going to suffer,everything happens for a reason, the jews were jumping with joy when god drowned pharoe and his army, but they werent jumping with joy when solomons nation was sacked by the egyptians, guess god didnt protect you then eh.

  3. ck

    1/17/2009 at 1:18 pm

    The message posted by those girls was to Hassan Nasrallah and it is the only photo you can post. You are free to be skeptical. Meanwhile Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish’s daughters are being treated in an Israeli hospital and no one here is celebrating their deaths or the deaths of any innocent civilians. There is no celebration in Jerusalem. No Israeli is handing out candies. Whatever. This whole conversation is gross to me. Do and say whatever you like. I don’t care.

  4. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 1:27 pm

    what kind of a father talks to the people responsible for his daughters death????????

    Dr Ezeldeen abu al aish is a fucking coward.

    if israeli jews are killed by arab terrorists, they dont call up palestinian news channels and ask “why ahmed why”

  5. beershevaboheme6

    1/17/2009 at 1:29 pm

    It is so sad that Dr. Abu Al-Aish has to suffer such a horrible tragedy befalling his family, when he has done NOTHING to deserve such pain, although unfortunately Hamas has. While I also thought it’s a little screwed up to feel you need to “counter” Israel’s f-up in Gaza with Palestinians celebrating a bombing in Israel. (even more f-ed up, without question)

    The real tragedy here is that such a terrorist and uncompromising “government” as Hamas was elected to power by the people, does nothing to help alleviate the poverty, lack of freedom, and general quality of life in Gaza, and then PURPOSELY puts innocent Palestinians in the line of fire because they want to eradicate the EXISTENCE of Israel.

    This entire situation is horrible, the death of innocents on BOTH sides is unforgivable, but the entire Hamas (and Hizballah, etc) doctrine needs to be changed or wiped out…or NO ONE in that region will ever be safe.

  6. themiddle

    1/17/2009 at 1:38 pm

    According to Ynet, the IDF reports that sniper fire was coming from his house.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657646,00.html

  7. froylein

    1/17/2009 at 1:48 pm

    Sad.

    CTC, BTW, is a hater that has been visiting us under several nicks recently.

  8. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 1:49 pm

    CK i realise this is a jewish blog and i have no right to judge or insult anyone here, but this dr pisses me of.

    he is crying to an israeli reporter, what the hell is that?

    its time palestinians realized that they should not form any relations with jews and should not ask for sympathy from jews, its stupid to do so, would you jews cry on the phone to arab news channel after a terrorist attack??

    also what do these palestinians get out of talking to the israeli media???

    are the israeli public going to change their minds and show mercy to them???
    only god can show mercy, israel is a pragmatic nation, no palestinian no matter how moderate or friendly can do anything about israels policy.

    David ben gurion said that arabs only understand force and thats the way israel will always deal with the arabs,
    palestinians can only grin and bear it

    after the war there wont be anymore intifadahs or palestinian revolts, israel has sent them a clear message,
    this dr is a broken and defeated man, crying on the phone to his enemy.

    within the next 20 years israel will elect avigdor lieberman and his party will probably kick out all arabs, including israeli arabs, then things are gonna get interesting.

  9. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:05 pm

    i am not a hater, i am tired of palestinians acting like children.

    look at the israelis and look at the palestinians.

    thousands of palestinians betray their own brothers, they sell out their neighbors and they want special privilages like jobs in israel or a passport so that they can leave the land,

    how many jews sell out israel????

    how many jews cry and whine during a war??

    this dr is a good example, how did he get permission to train in israel?

    i will tell you how, he “”cooperated” with the israelis.
    Every palestinian who has trained or received benefits from israel has to do something for the idf, like spying on their neighbors.

    the palestinians are a broken and hopeless people, stubbornly fighting a lost war, they dont even have the support of the arab countries, they are used as a plaything by the world

    israel is testing new weapons on gaza according to the idf, they are nothing but target practice, thats how pathetic they are and it pains me to see them like this.

    to me this doctor is a representation of the palestinian people, a broken people.

  10. themiddle

    1/17/2009 at 2:07 pm

    What the fuck is wrong with you?

    The man just lost his daughters. It doesn’t matter why or who, they’re dead and gone. He is obviously going to be extremely upset and sad.

    Sheesh!

  11. jewish sympathy

    1/17/2009 at 2:09 pm

    here is jewish sympathy, read the talkback from ynet

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657646,00.html

  12. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:11 pm

    this doctor is a palestinian “capo”

  13. themiddle

    1/17/2009 at 2:13 pm

    Talkbacks aren’t representative of anything. Look at this discussion dominated by “Cut the Crap/Simple Guy/Asian Muslim Guy/Goyim/(and others I’ve missed).” Does he represent a consensus?

  14. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:14 pm

    a jewish mother has also accused him of being a liar

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657587,00.html

  15. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:20 pm

    themiddle can you tell me how he got a job in israel?

    remember the palestinian fullbright scholars who were prevented from leaving gaza???

    but somehow he got a chance to work in an israeli hospital

    i will tell you why, he chose to work with the israelis instead of serving his own people, and his reward…….the death of his daughters

    so what is the moral of the story, dont sell out your own people

    no palestinian should ever work for the israelis.

  16. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:24 pm

    this is from a ynet talkback

    6. This doctor belongs in Gaza where he can help the
    murderers he and his fellow Gazans elected to office. God shows no mercy to those who have shown no mercy, so why is Israel showing mercy to Gazans in Israeli hospitals when this doctor is not even a prisoner of war. His dead children went to be with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Moses, David, and Yeshua. This doctor should be thanking the Lord for His mercy to children who because of their parents’ unbelief can only go to heaven if they die young. It was God’s favor to this Gazan physician that caused the death of his three daughters who would have gone to hell if allowed to grow up as Muslims in a religion that denies the God of Abraham. He should be kissing the feet of the IDF who killed his daughters because the daughters are comforted and are in Paradise because of their young age. That is reality, pal.
    Rivkah (01.17.09)

  17. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:25 pm

    this is israeli sympathy for a palestinian sell out, this is his reward.

  18. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:31 pm

    the jewish woman says “. He should be kissing the feet of the IDF who killed his daughters because the daughters are comforted and are in Paradise because of their young age. That is reality, pal.
    Rivkah (01.17.09)

    this is jewish logic, you call us fanatics, this is your religion and logic.

    how the fuck would you feel if arabs told you to be grateful for being killed by terrorists.

    this is your logic, these arabs should be grateful for dying due to the idf,

    i posted that from ynetnews, i will post the article again

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657587,00.html

    read talkback 6

  19. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 2:39 pm

    i am not an asshole spammer and i am not a fucking inhuman monster

    i have seen his face on yent and yes i know that he is suffering but why on earth did he have a press conference
    in an israeli hospital, did he really think he was gonna get sympathy from you people????

  20. alsothemiddle

    1/17/2009 at 2:41 pm

    It is silly to think the people (not the military or government, but civilians) on one side are better than the people on the other side. Look at how Israelis are reacting. Look at reports of “war tourists”. Listen to what some Israelis are saying about the deaths. Look at the Alternet video by Blumenthal which shows people dancing in the street over Israel’s bombing, denouncing all Muslims, saying Israel should wipe them all out. There is plenty of hate on both sides.

    If this one doctor can get some people to think about the huge waste in human life that were blind to it before, that alone is good.

  21. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 3:10 pm

    what everyone is asking is why didnt he bring his daughters into the west bank or israel if he was allowed to work in israel??

    its because the idf did not give permission for his daughters to be allowed into the west bank or israel, its mentioned in a article by ynet,

    so tell me again what is his fucking reward for working for you guys????

  22. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 3:13 pm

    he was described as “a zionist palestinian” by his jewish friends at the hospital, he also sent his daughters to peace camp and believed in co existence, so tell me what did he get out of it??

    if this is how you treat your arab friends, only god knows how arabs are treated in idf jails.

  23. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 3:17 pm

    alsothemiddle i hope you are not a jew because you seem like a decent human being and not blind, if you are a jew, please convert to islam, you deserve better.

    and dont bother about showing the other side, jews have been blind since the time of moses,

    did you know the torah describes how god gave leprosy to the jews because they mocked the skin colour of the wife of moses

  24. Yael

    1/17/2009 at 4:24 pm

    CTC – Fuck off!

  25. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 4:39 pm

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

    getting personal are we, lol

    you are not the first jew to curse at me, i have heard your foul mouths at israeli checkpoints

    as i was saying look at the way you treated the palestinian doctor, he was described by his friends as a zionist palestinian, and you killed his daughters

    tell me yael, what reward did you give this palestinian capo???

    maybe this is a good thing, the message is, hey palestinian,doesnt matter what you are, you are still nothing.

    no palestinian should ever work under any israeli,ever, and this doctor is a good example,

    and fuck any apelstinian girl singing with israelis, its like singing with a bunch of killers

  26. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 4:40 pm

    correction, palestinian girl

  27. froylein

    1/17/2009 at 4:43 pm

    Yael, I’ll gladly respond to any Palestinian that doesn’t want to spread paranoid lies and deliberate misunderstandings, but this person here with their multiple nicknames is a waste of time.

  28. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 4:50 pm

    hehehehe

    the leprosy story from the torah really boils their blood

    what kind of a people questions their saviors wife’s skin colour??

    moses married a cushite woman, who had dark skin, the jews questioned her skin color and god gave them leprosy,lol

    hashem sure has a sense of humour,lol

  29. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 4:53 pm

    in leprosy, the skin can become depigmented, becoming more white

    can you guys see the moral of the story here???

    hehehe

  30. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 4:58 pm

    paranoid lies????

    is ynet news a palestinian website???

    is haaretz a palestinian website?

    is jerusalempost a palestinian website???

  31. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 5:01 pm

    you people still didnt answer me, this doctor was pro israeli, so why didnt the idf give permission to bring his daughters into israel or the west bank before they were shelled?????????????????????

    if the idf can trust this palestinian doctor with israeli lives, couldnt they have trusted his daughters???????

  32. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 5:05 pm

    the best response you people can come up with is “fuck off” or “i dont care”

    you havnt changed at all, and you never will, go take your bloody holy land, go steal some more land, go build more barriers, you had the land before and you still fucked up, and those were the times when you actually had prophets

    good luck

  33. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/17/2009 at 5:06 pm

    Even in the face of this tragedy, when the doctor expresses his hope that the loss of his daughters may in the end bring peace closer, he is interrupted by a hatefull Israeli woman, Levana Stern, whose sons in the army even could have been the killers.
    When will Israeli stop being so agressive, hatefull and misled by unnessesairy fear ?

  34. cut the crap

    1/17/2009 at 5:09 pm

    many palestinians are broken and they will lose, but that isnt the end of them,

    the palestinians will mix with asians and other arabs, all the people will be one

    you jews on the other hand are a narrow ethnocentric cult, you have been for the last 3000 years and you will always remain, you will always and i mean always struggle to reclaim your heritage but the best you can come up with is a bunch of rabbis wearing silly hats and western hats

    did moses dress like an arab or did he dress like a rabbi today??

    better to be a raghead arab than to be a white ass jew

  35. themiddle

    1/17/2009 at 6:17 pm

    Hey, Cut The Crap/Simple Guy/Asian Muslim Guy, at this point you are spamming us. Why don’t you think through whatever it is you want to say and write it in one long comment. Thanks.

  36. ck

    1/17/2009 at 7:22 pm

    CTC: Wow. You’re like… a little shrill. But I’ll respond to your issues. It’s unlikely that Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish was a “collaborator” as Hamas would have killed him by now – especially given how open he was – it’s not like Hamas wouldn’t have known that he was on TV in Israel on several occasions.

    No one gives talkbacks any credence at all. The reporters don’t read them and it’s easy for someone who is anti Israel to leave horrifically stupid comments that can be interpreted as being somehow representative of all of Israel – like you just did.

    In any case, like I said before, you are tiresome and annoying. I’ve addressed your points. Have a nice day.

  37. wherethewindblows

    1/17/2009 at 8:47 pm

    Sorry to continue this, but you said, CTC, in a comment above that only God can show mercy. My understanding, and experience is that we humans show mercy when our hearts are open: that in itself is God-like. To say that only ‘God shows mercy’ leaves the door open for the most inhuman behaviour (this site only likes US spelling: pity).

  38. David

    1/17/2009 at 9:27 pm

    Yes humans should show mercy…Bu that is not what the Israeli millitary and their big brother the US is doing..By abstaing from the peacefire agreement in the UN,Israel felt that they have the right to continue despite condemnation.What kind of mercy is this particularly when Ehud Barak openly claimed that he had convinced Condolisa Rice to abstain from the UN vote.

    When Russia attacked Georgia the world was quick to step up and put russi in its place.When the tables have turned and Palestinians are massacred, the world drags its feets and legitimises the incursion by Israel eve though over a 1000 people have been killed and thousands injured.UN schools sanctuarie have been hit, UN aid workers and drivers killed,access to the injured and dead not provided to the Red Cross.Is this the Mercy you talk about? The Zionists and their supporters are not the Jews of old who had suffered and understand what it is to be an oppressed people.

    The premise that the Israel is promised to the Jews might pull some weight withe non-violent Zionist supporter, but surely God will judge the Zionist for their destruction and oppression of a people.

    May God help you all to step out of your shallow caccoons and speak the truth and condemn evil actions.I am no anti semite however I am anti Zionist

  39. susan

    1/17/2009 at 10:07 pm

    CK, it really upsets me that you would post the video from the Gaza celebrations under your post about this man’s horrible tragedy. You say compassionate things, but then really negate them by posting the video, as if to say “haha, its your turn now.” why not show compassion where it is due without the snide video post– was the doctor or his daughters in the video?

    I read Jewlicious even though I don’t always agree with the politics expressed here because I find it to be a quality blog– this post gives me a pain in the pit of my stomach that makes me want to stop reading your blog altogether.

  40. Nasir Ali

    1/18/2009 at 3:42 am

    Dear all,
    Peace to everyone.I think it’s time for all of us to sit together, discuss the issues and sort everything out peacefully.Unfortunately, the world seems to have started misinterpreting the Divine laws. For instance, the “eye for an eye” punishment (Exodus and Quran); This law was introduced to STOP people crossing their limits, NOT to make everyone blind. It’s interpretation is “If someone has taken your eye, you CANNOT cross your limit and do more more harm than he he/she has done to you.” This makes sense and is infact common sense. The modern “intelligent” man however, interprets this law as:”If someone has taken your eye, you must harm him and take his eye” which does NOT make any sense and infact a NON-SENSE.
    The way we look at the world and interpret it makes us make mistakes and blame God for not being intelligent enough to introduce laws that make sense.
    Instead of relying on their leaders, I think Palestinians and Israelis should sit together and discuss their issues peacefully; most issues can be resolved by using common sense.
    Peace to all.

  41. ck

    1/18/2009 at 4:14 am

    Susan – don’t think for a second that I didn’t have the same concerns you did. I didn’t want to be seen as exploiting the Doctor’s tragedy at all. A friend of mine who is a Med student was at Tel Hashomer with Dr. Abu Al-Aish and what he related to me from the scene was heartbreaking. But there is another side to the story and I couldn’t sit idly by while others spoke about Israelis being heartless murderers. We’re not. And I’m not just upset at this Doctor’s high profile tragedy, I’m upset by all the needless and senseless loss of life in the region. Those that seek to picture us as craven and heartless killers need to be confronted with the reality of what we are dealing with and with the reality of who Israelis really are. It’s a fine line to tread and I may have failed – please accept my apologies as I meant no offense. I just wanted to paint a picture of the reality here and sometimes the truth just isn’t very comfortable or pretty.

  42. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 4:25 am

    Susan, my initial reaction to this post was also one of shock and even dismay. Where is ck’s sympathy? How can he juxtapose the video and the horrible torture this man is going through?

    I’ve had a chance to revisit this a couple of times and I now understand ck’s point and it is well made even as it seems horrific. Maybe for the first time I understand the horrific implications of handing out candy and celebrating after a “successful” attack on Israelis. It is a reaction opposite to what most of us would ever consider possible and definitely opposite to what most Israelis feel upon the death of any Palestinian.

    Regarding the story itself, if there was sniper fire coming from the doctor’s house, then this situation becomes doubly painful because the deep sympathy and sadness I feel for him are crossed with anger that he or Hamas or they together allowed this situation to exist.

  43. ck

    1/18/2009 at 5:18 am

    I can almost guarantee that Dr. Abu Al-Aish did not allow Hamas gunmen to fire from his home. There is no reason to believe that that had happened, at least not with the willing cooperation of the family. Now we can discuss culpability and attempt to discern the veracity of the IDF spokesman’s statements in great detail. But I just don’t have that in me right now. It’s not going to make the situation any less tragic. I’m just hoping the cease fire will hold and that Hamas will desist from further endangering their constituents.

  44. xisnotx

    1/18/2009 at 6:09 am

    ” Our hearts go out to you and we feel only sadness and regret at your loss:”

    ck, i hope dr. al-aish does not see what you did with this. i wish i didn’t see it either.

  45. ck

    1/18/2009 at 7:14 am

    I hope Dr. Abu Al-Aish does not see what else was done in his family’s name. Despite his grief and suffering, even while the lifeless bodies of his daughter were still warm, he has called for nothing other than peace and understanding. Read the articles – he is a remarkable man. Sadly, others are trying to use his family’s tragedy to promote a war mongering agenda, claiming that Israelis are celebrating the deaths of his daughters. He’s in Israel now. He knows what the truth is and I am certain he doesn’t fear it. I don’t know why you fear the truth x.

  46. susan

    1/18/2009 at 8:11 am

    But CK/Middle, what if, G-d forbid, it was your daughters and your nieces who were killed? What if I showed you a blog that told of your tragedy, with a video at the bottom of some haredim praising Baruch Goldshtein? Would you believe me when I said I was sympathetic? Or would it upset you and make you think that I was subtly saying that you got what you deserved? Wouldn’t you said, “but hey, that’s not fair, that’s not me?”

  47. froylein

    1/18/2009 at 10:34 am

    Susan, tough question. I cannot speak on behalf on anybody else, but I think I would be pained in general, but also embarrassed by the actions of my co-religionists. The fault lies not with the person pointing things out afterall. Then again, that’s just me..

  48. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 10:42 am

    ck tell me why did israel prevent some gaza fullbright scholars from leaving even when the united states tried to intervene on their behalf???

    and dont tell me they were “hamas fighters”, the fact that they were recognized as pro american means they werent hamas, so why did israel prevent them from leaving?????

    i will tell you why, because you can, thats why, you made a point, you told the palestinians, “look pals, we control your lives,forget about your dreams ,we will give you a few scraps so be happy and dont complain, and by the way if even try to resist, we will kill you”

    thats the deal palestinians have to live with, and now this palestinian doctor is living proof

    one last thing, go emotionally masturbate and call yourselves special, maybe it will come true, assholes

  49. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 12:10 pm

    The poor doctor has suffered a terrible loss, but he is, after all, a Palestinian. Or at least that’s how I construe the message.

  50. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 12:22 pm

    Susan, if anything were to happen to my family I would go curl up in a corner in the fetal position completely oblivious to the world around me. The least thing I would care about is a blog or somebody’s commentary. That this doctor had the strength to speak to the cameras after this horror is incredibly moving and, well, incredible.

    To your specific point, the passing around of candy and the celebrations after attacks on Israelis are actually fairly common events. This differentiates them from the small number of people who find Goldstein’s actions laudable in the same way that comparing Goldstein to Palestinian suicide bombings is to compare a singular, anomalous event with strategic, well planned frequently occuring attacks.

    Yes, I guess I could read the post to mean that “they got what they deserved” which was in fact my initial reaction. That’s why I emphasized that revisiting this post made me realize that it really brings home the difference between how the two sides approach this conflict. ck is pointing out the grief felt in many Israeli quarters for this man’s loss and crudely but effectively contrasting it with Palestinians. And in fact, it’s this attitude that has driven the conflict to where it is.

  51. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 12:40 pm

    Middle, I think what Susan is driving at, is that it’s inappropriate to exploit the deaths of children to make a political point, even if that point has merit. There are other ways of critiquing Hamas.

    It’s also a very fraught path to head down, contrasting one culture’s ostensible unconcern with human life with the ostensible sensitivity of another’s. The Viet Cong, and earlier the Japanese, were Asians who didn’t value human life as much as white people do…. These are very dangerous comparisons to make, if only by implication.

    The tragedy of these children speaks for itself, without Hamas thugs or immediately asking where the hostile fire was coming from.

  52. froylein

    1/18/2009 at 12:56 pm

    Tom, can’t help but wonder, would people have been just as offended had CK asked for compassion for Israeli victims by Palestinians in a separate post and contrasted reactions on both sides? There has never been a bellum iustum. The loss of civilian lives (are drafted soldiers not “civilian”?) is the horrific reality of war. While we stand in shock and grief, we do not forget the chain of cause-and-effect. The tragedy of those children implies the Hamas thugs, the Hamas terrorism that is directed at Israelis as well as at moderate Palestinians. The writing was on the wall.

  53. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 1:03 pm

    The death of an Israeli child to terror is every bit as much a tragedy as the death of these Palestinian children. Sorry.

  54. froylein

    1/18/2009 at 1:10 pm

    Certainly.

    But I am irked by the suggestion that CK’s compassion wasn’t genuine, that he didn’t care at all and was just a faker. Anybody who knows him knows such claims don’t do him justice and anybody who makes such claims is ignorant of his (voluntary, unpaid) work he’s been doing, the many efforts he’s been making, and also his writing on here. That, or that person wants to bathe in a puddle of self-righteousness – which is a reverse exploitation of those children’s death.

  55. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 1:14 pm

    froylein, I’m as little able to peer inside ck’s soul as anyone else, but I’m happy to credit him with sincerity. I’m just modestly judging what I see, not its author. And you’ve got text that tries to get beyond nationality and the passions of wartime, and two videos that together vitiate that message– indeed, stand for the opposite. I don’t do ad hominem attacks, and I don’t think other comments contained them either.

  56. froylein

    1/18/2009 at 1:16 pm

    One needs not resort to ad hominem attacks to be offensive.

  57. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 1:37 pm

    The oddly passive notion that “the writing was on the wall” conveniently elides whether Israel’s actions, in this small instance or with respect to the campaign in general, were just under all the circumstances. If we take a massive response by nuclear-armed states to be inevitable as a matter of course, we’ve gutted any semblance of just-war analysis. If, as recently occurred, US soldiers kill an Iraqi family at a roadblock, it would hardly be satisfactory to claim “the writing was on the wall”, or Saddam was a bad guy so this can only have been expected, etc.

  58. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 2:03 pm

    Just to take a mimute away from “the writing was on the wall” and remind everyone that the writing was on the wall.

    I don’t mean to say that anybody did anything that warranted the deaths of these girls. I just mean that it was inevitable that Israel would cause a number of tragedies such as this one in its offensive. That is one of the reasonse they had not attacked for all that time, it is one of the cynical reasons that Hamas wanted Israel to attack, and it is the key problem with fighting these non-state organizations that strategically place their fighters among civilians.

    In the public sphere, that of public opinion, Israel lost this war on the day it hit the UN school and killed 40. The same happened with Qana and Lebanon. The same will continue to happen because “the writing is on the wall.” Israel and any other nation facing this type of warfare has two choices: fight and look bad; don’t fight and give your enemy the ability to pressure and harm you. It’s a lose-lose and for Hamas, even when they’re beaten back aggressively, it’s a win win.

    Tom, you’ll recall that we were in agreement that nothing less than a crushing defeat of Hamas would accomplish its goals. Its early to tell how much damage the Israelis did, but there’s no question that even with the best attempt to control civilian casualties they could muster, the Israelis were hard hit by the ricochets of their own attacks.

    It’s a tough situation.

  59. Daniel Beauset

    1/18/2009 at 2:17 pm

    I’d like to share this video of how Dr Ezzeldeen was treated on a press conference:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh_F0p8Jcrc

    I want to then say it is pretty disturbing to show that video of the palestinians celebrating. What is the point ? to show that palestinians are monsters?

    Why don’t you post a video of all the innocent palestinan children slaughterd in this war ?

    You know what amazes me the most ? Israel doesn’t want to talk to Hamas because they say they are terrorists. Did you know Tzipi Livni Dad (Aton livni) was a chief operations officer of a terrorist group, blowing up the king David hotel in jerusalem, killing 90 civilians ? Isn’t that ironic?

    You can see the statements of a Jewish british MP talking about that here:

  60. Tom Morrissey

    1/18/2009 at 2:23 pm

    Middle, I agree with your analysis. In any event, there’s a critical difference between throwing up one’s hands and saying, ‘there’s nothing to be done, the other side brought this upon itself’, and counting the deaths of hundreds of children in Gaza as weighing in the scales against a massive response. One can still weigh it out and support Israel’s response, as I do. The lazy approach (not yours) is to blame the bad guy and leave it at that.

  61. froylein

    1/18/2009 at 2:26 pm

    There’s nothing passive about that notion as I did put it into context; warfare has caused damages and losses of lives among civilians ever since there has been a definition for war as opposed to bellicose struggles. I’m not a cynist. Politically, I’d label myself a realistic pacifist. But as Middle correctly stated, in warfare you cannot always avoid civilian casualties. Whether the measures Israel took were just or not depends on one’s gauge; if your gauge is the Geneva Convention, then the measures Israel took were by any means just and still way below what the Geneva Convention grants states in response to para-military attacks by non-combatants (members of a military not distinctively recognizable as soldiers in uniform) on your territory or citizens. War is never fun.

  62. Omer

    1/18/2009 at 2:32 pm

    Susan-
    If you had brought a picture of some jews in Hebron praising Goldstein than I’d say it’s wrong. But if you had brought such pictures from all around Tel Aviv than that would be quite a different thing!
    The problem here is that cries of joy coming from Palestinians whenever Israelies are killed are common while the same behaviour is common mainly amongst Kahana’s followers on the Israeli side (i.e.-a small minority). I hope you understand the difference!

  63. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 2:46 pm

    what proof is there that the all the palestinians celebrate on the street??????

    does one palestinian street constitute the whole of palestine???

    you guys are pulling logic out of your ass

    daniel dont bother, these people are as blind as a bat

  64. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 2:53 pm

    these people also dont mention the jewish defense league and their celebration of death of muslims

    or american jews celebration of death of iraqis,(american christians the fuckers they are)

    i remeber in 2005 american journalists laughing besides a dead iraqi

    or how about the story of american soldiers exchanging pictures of dead iraqis for porn

    daneil check this story out, and it has been confirmed by the pentagon

    http://www.ojr.org/ojr/stories/050920glaser/

  65. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 2:53 pm

    Daniel, there were some attacks by the Irgun that I would label “terrorist,” but the King David Hotel’s attack is not among them. That hotel served as the military headquarters for the British at a time when they were in a life and death war with the Irgun. Also, the Irgun members called the hotel to warn for evacuation 5 times. This was denied by the British for decades until the soldier who received the calls finally admitted this publicly several years ago.

  66. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 2:54 pm

    this story has also been mentioned by the new york post

  67. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 2:55 pm

    explain the lavonn affair themiddle

  68. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 2:58 pm

    daniel did you know that the pentagon blocked the porn website after female american soldiers started appearing nude on the website

    here is the link to freerepublic, which i may add is a conservatice magazine, so no one can accuse this magazine of having an anti american bias, considering its an american pro republican magazine site

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1349176/posts

  69. Joshua

    1/18/2009 at 3:01 pm

    BREAKING NEWS: According to Aussie Dave at Israellycool, autopsy suggests that Dr. Abu al-Aish’s daughters may have been killed by a Hamas-fired Qassam or Grad rocket.

  70. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 3:02 pm

    Well CTC, a few years ago one of the Palestinian universities held a special event commemorating a suicide bombing where there was a recreation of the restaurant complete with fake flying (Jewish) body parts. Now if that’s not a public celebration sponsored by a public body and held for the wider public, I don’t know what is.

    Shikaki used to poll Palestinians’ reactions to suicide bombings in 2001 and 2002 and he would find over 75% support for this form of attack.

    But even so, Israel seeks to hit only military targets and avoid civilian ones. Don’t forget that Hamas warned the IDF that they were ready for them and Gaza would become a graveyard for IDF soldiers. This alone explains why Israel rapidly returns fire to its source and makes grave mistakes like killing this doctor’s family. However, they appear to be trying to avoid these casualties within the context of trying to ensure that they don’t get killed or captured by a Hamas that has been waiting for this incursion for a while.

  71. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 3:04 pm

    CTC, why? Is it relevant to this discussion? Would you like me to list various Arab and Palestinian activities over the past hundred years?

  72. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 3:14 pm

    Joshua, all AussieDave is showing is a link to a small forum discussion where this claim is made.

  73. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 3:16 pm

    Daniel Beauset if you are a jew then i say shalom to you, please study the holy quran and google “embryology in the holy quran and geology in the holy quran”

    the holy quran describes the phenomenon of continental shift and describes embryogenesis in incredible detail

    the worlds best embryologist keith L moore has studied the holy quran and admitted that its revelations concerning the developing human are true

    i want you to to convert to islam and go to heaven, please dont be trapped in a narrow ethnocentric cult like judaism or idol worshipping in christianity, open your eyes to the truth.

    peace

  74. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 3:21 pm

    daniel remember the holy quran was revealed before the discovery of the compound microscope, and the development of the human embryo has only recently been uncovered, thanks to the electron microscope

    daniel did you know that the holy quran mentions the universe is expanding???

    because of this the catholic church had an oppostie veiw, saying the universe is constant, because god is constant, they burned alive anyone who questioned the catholics view of the universe, but thanks to modern science the holy quran has been explained.

  75. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 3:23 pm

    well themiddle arabs are not gods “chosen” so that explains their behavior, but you jews are “chosen”, so how the hell can you explain your behavior?

    or are jews not “chosen”

    i have a radical concept for you jews, god cares for 6 billion humans equally, not only the jews

  76. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 3:32 pm

    themiddle provide me with a link showing the university celebrating the event

    remember i have provided links for the facts i have stated

  77. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 3:35 pm

    hehehehehe, some guys decides to open a forum to discuss wether the doctors daughters really died to idf fire and people automaticaly decide its the truth

    weapons of mass destruction in iraq anyone, this is how you guys started the war in iraq,lol

  78. cut the crap

    1/18/2009 at 4:10 pm

    the doctors press conference was interrupted by a jewish woman,lol

    she is probably a settler, israeli settlers are all animals, good for being violent towards palestinians and nothing else

  79. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 4:35 pm

    By the way, CTC, you are spamming again. Consider this my last warning.

  80. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/18/2009 at 5:10 pm

    As a relative bystander from a far away country what always amazes me is that Israeli somehow want to portray Palestinians as triggerhappy death loving sub-humans. While they themselves are so concerned with even their enemies lives they only very reluctantly kill if they are -really- forced to.
    Why is it than that ever so often they deploy their massive firepower and destruction in densly populated areas killing thousends ?

    Frankly this ‘shoot now, cry later’ makes me sick to the bone !

    Another question I’d like to see answered is how on earth could you think what is happening with regard to the West-Bank settlements and apartheid stucture could ever be justified other than by accepting it as the most brutal sort of colonisation ?

    Are you aware Israel started starving Gaza even before Hamas were in power ?
    Are you aware Israel never opened borders although this was part of the truce deal w. Hamas ?
    Are you aware Hamas was observing the truce until the IDF restarted it’s incursions killing some 4 or 6 in Gaza ?

    Al in all the image arizes of Israel needing the Palestinians to be maginalized so the colonial scheme can be developed thereby indifferent to how many Palestinians are killed in the process.
    A definite racist stance.

  81. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/18/2009 at 6:19 pm

    One of the few sane people in Israel;

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056269.html

  82. themiddle

    1/18/2009 at 8:10 pm

    ” As a relative bystander from a far away country what always amazes me is that Israeli somehow want to portray Palestinians as triggerhappy”

    8000 rockets, unprovoked, will do that to you.

    Did I mention suicide bombings?

    Did you know that before Israel re-entered Areas A which were under PA control in 2001, 2002, there were several thousands instances of Palestinian attacks on Israelis annually, most of them sniper fire?

    ” death loving”

    You’ve heard of suicide bombers in your far-away country, right?

    You understand what it means when Palestinian polls show vast public support for suicide bombings that target civilians, right?

    ” sub-humans.”

    A small minority of Jews and Israelis believes this. Sorry. Most seek to have peace and two states side by side.

    “While they themselves are so concerned with even their enemies lives they only very reluctantly kill if they are -really- forced to.”

    This is fairly accurate.

    “Why is it than that ever so often they deploy their massive firepower and destruction in densly populated areas killing thousends ?”

    Uh, first they wait for years and try other solutions. When it becomes unbearable or unpardonable, they repond. The Israelis could have done to Gaza what they’re doing now, a couple of years ago. They didn’t and they tried to avoid an incursion.

    The IDF has a real army with powerful weapons. Hamas knew this while launching thousands of rockets. War is fought to win with as few casualties as possible. You may be upset, but the IDF is doing its job with the resources it possesses. The alternative would be much bloodier.

    “Frankly this ’shoot now, cry later’ makes me sick to the bone !”

    Of course. You agree they should keep silent while more rockets rain down upon them with ever greater range.

    “Another question I’d like to see answered is how on earth could you think what is happening with regard to the West-Bank settlements and apartheid stucture could ever be justified other than by accepting it as the most brutal sort of colonisation ?”

    Well, I’m personally opposed to the settlements but the departure of all Jewish residents and soldiers from Gaza did not make the the Palestinians stop attacking Israel regularly. This makes departing the West Bank/Judea and Samaria very difficult.

    As for the security arrangements which lead to you calling this apartheid, blame the Palestinians for their war. There would be no security barrier, virtually no new safety roads, many fewer checkpoints….and a smaller number of settlements and the ones that exist would have grown less.

    “Are you aware Israel started starving Gaza even before Hamas were in power ?”

    It never “starved” Gaza. Water, electricity and food was coming in regularly. When they shut the borders and checkpoints, it’s because that’s where Hamas and other groups have tried to smuggle in bombers.

    “Are you aware Israel never opened borders although this was part of the truce deal w. Hamas ?”

    Not true. It opened them and had to promptly close them after a barrage of rockets that hit after the truce came into effect. Also, if you mean completely open borders, that was never part of any deal.

    “Are you aware Hamas was observing the truce until the IDF restarted it’s incursions killing some 4 or 6 in Gaza ?”

    Untrue. While rockets were not raining down at an average of 100-150 a month, they were dropping at a rate of 10-20 a month.

    “Al in all the image arizes of Israel needing the Palestinians to be maginalized so the colonial scheme can be developed”

    Is that why Israel entered into Oslo negotiations and offered the Palestinians a state in 2000? Is that why historically, the Jews have agreed to divide the land in 1937, 1947 and again in 2000 while the Arabs always said no?

    ” thereby indifferent to how many Palestinians are killed in the process.”

    Entirely untrue. Israel could have attacked Gaza years ago.

    “A definite racist stance.”

    Oh and I thought we were talking about war and politics. Racism? No. Self-defense? Yes.

  83. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/19/2009 at 5:01 am

    Thank you for explaning the Israeli point of view. Cutting a few corners it’s an understandable one.
    But cutting corners here is obviously very dangerous.

    From these statistics I deduct the truce actually worked;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008

    (12 rockets in four months, probably fired by militant factions such as Islamitic Jihad, nowwhere an excuse for operation ‘Cast Lead’.)

    About the blockade;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_blockade

    ” * After Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan from the Gaza strip, Israel no longer occupied Gaza with troops until the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. However, it retained control over Gaza’s airspace and coastline, and over its own border with the territory. It also controlled the flow of goods, including fuel and energy supplies, in and out.[7]”

    about suicide bombings;

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3256858.stm
    “Palestinians often attempt to explain the attacks as desperate acts or revenge born of their suffering under occupation. They point to the large number of Palestinian civilian deaths as a result of actions by the Israeli army.

    Polls taken in the West Bank and Gaza have in recent years suggested that about 60% of Palestinians support suicide attacks to some degree.

    At the beginning of 2005, when the Palestinian and Israeli leaders declared a ceasefire after four years of the Palestinian intifada or uprising, the leading Palestinian militant group Hamas declared it would “respect calm” – though it reserved the right to respond to Israeli attacks. Other groups followed suite. ”

    Tht’s 60% as opposed to 90% Israeli in favor of mass killing & destruction in Gaza….(as far as statistics go)

    About breaking the truce;
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

    This is easily interpreted as an Israeli provocation

    – War is fought to win with as few casualties as possible.

    Indeed Israel wants to impose it’s will on Palestinians by means of militairy force while all along serious talks, including with Hamas could have prevented the killing of thousands, including tens of Israeli.

    OK, I grant you the general outlook from the ‘silent majority’ of Israeli may be more one of self defence than of wilfull suppression but the outcome of the process is definitely one of supression.

    Some statistics about casualties;
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    -Well, I’m personally opposed to the settlements but the -departure of all Jewish residents and soldiers from Gaza -did not make the the Palestinians stop attacking Israel -regularly. This makes departing the West Bank/Judea and -Samaria very difficult.

    Clear but still why than isn’t Abbas, the obvious ‘Peace partner’ for Israel at least given some air;
    http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3602626,00.html

    About the terrific peace-offer in Camp David, 2000;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
    (read closely)
    The original offer was not acceptable to Arafat because of the conditions. But off the record negotiations continued. That the conditions could indeed be better for the Palestinians was proven when finally at the Taba negotiations they were just a hair away from a final peace agreement.
    In steps mr ‘Sabra-Shatila Sharon’ and the rest is history….

    “Clinton’s initiative led to the Taba negotiations in January 2001, where the two sides published a statement saying they had never been closer to agreement (though such issues as Jerusalem, the status of Gaza, and the Palestinian demand for compensation for refugees and their descendants remained unresolved), but Barak, facing elections, resuspended the talks.[8] The increased violence led to a sharp swing to the right in Israeli politics; Ehud Barak was defeated by Ariel Sharon in 2001.”

    So it seems the Israeli public choose war instead of peace in the 2001 elections….
    I hope someday this trend is reversed, imagine….

  84. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/19/2009 at 5:07 am

    And meanwhile, I’m sad to say this is Israels message to the world….
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7836596.stm

  85. themiddle

    1/19/2009 at 7:23 am

    No Boris, Israel’s message to the world is “We waited and waited and they kept firing at us with rockets that became more sophisticated, longer-reaching and more dangerous over time. We can no longer wait and while we will do our utmost to protect civilians in Gaza from harm, it is our duty first to protect our citizens and we hope to do this by hitting Hamas with a powerful blow that will change the status quo and bring relief from their unprovoked attacks and continued preparations for war.”

  86. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/19/2009 at 10:16 am

    ….Israel has another problem too and that’s a demographic one. Actually Israeli palestinians may even prove to be a bigger problem than Gaza/Westbank. There is no principle of equality in Israeli legislation. To pacify Israeli Palestinians they will be forced to sign a declaration of loyalty to the jewish state, thereby giving up all hope for equality. Even the idea of ‘expelling’ is winning more and more momentum. All this compromizes greatly the democratic level of Israel…a point the international community at some moment may start to consider problematic (as in South Africa).

  87. themiddle

    1/19/2009 at 12:44 pm

    When Israel gets to the points you’re describing, come back here and write to us. So far all you’ve done is offer inaccurate information. Have you considered that since most of your info is incorrect, your sympathies may also be a little skewed?

  88. WhyDoYouCare

    1/19/2009 at 1:19 pm

    This would not have happened if Hama wasn’t holding the Palestinian people hostage. The Palestinian people need to wake up and smell the gunfire and shrapnel. Once they do that and they remove Hamas themselves everything will be different.

  89. cut the crap

    1/19/2009 at 2:11 pm

    themiddle ariel sharon himself admitted that the jewish state was danger of becoming an arab state due to the growing arab population, thats why he removed the gaza settlements even though right wing jews agitated and threatened to kill him.

    and just listen to avigdor lieberman,moshe feiglin, and even ami ayalon, they have all admitted that they want all arabs to leave no matter what.

  90. themiddle

    1/19/2009 at 5:20 pm

    The assumption is that demographics are not in Israel’s best long term interest if you include the West Bank/Judea and Samaria in your calculations. I don’t include the area in my calculations. There is also a group of researchers who dispute the accuracy of the prevailing demographics research and claim the Palestinians probably number 30-40% less in total.

    Boris, however, was speaking about Israel itself not including territories and within Israel, the Arab population has been at 19% of the overall population for decades.

  91. wherethewindblows

    1/19/2009 at 5:42 pm

    I was unaware that Palestinian Israelis are to be required a loyalty declaration. The issue of loyalty is a tricky one: the right to have a different opinion is central to most democracies, though the way one expresses that right can infringe the rights of others. But if one doesn’t have a fundamental sense of loyalty to the state (despite differences of opinion) then one might want to consider moving elsewhere. If one’s level of dissatisfaction is sufficiently strong then it is worthwhile forming a lobby group or writing to the paper, or expressing one’s feelings on blogs like this, minus the vitriol!! So many countries in the world have extremists of one form or another, who step over the bounds of excepted practice and help create fear, distrust, even hatred in others. Settler groups have not infrequently been shown attacking their Arab neighbours, which I personally find unacceptable. On the other hand the overseas media tend not to examine the cause of the reciprocal fear and hatred and to tell the truth that stuff is not really newsworthy: there is nothing like a few rocks flying or a few bashing to catch the attention and generate emotion; I find the emotion arise in me, until I stop and think, ‘what is this really about’.

  92. themiddle

    1/19/2009 at 5:48 pm

    What loyalty declaration?

  93. wherethewindblows

    1/19/2009 at 5:55 pm

    I was referring to Boris’s comment above.

  94. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/19/2009 at 6:25 pm

    -Message: When Israel gets to the points you’re describing, -come back here and write to us. So far all you’ve done is -offer inaccurate information. Have you considered that -since most of your info is incorrect, your sympathies may -also be a little skewed?

    Yeah, that loyalty thing may be a specific right-wing idea
    http://www.herut.org.il/english/platform.html

    I’ll take that back

    But can you convince me Israeli Palestinians have the same rights alltogether in Israel ?
    I base my thoughts on texts like these;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status

    “According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done “little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens”

    By the way you deem my other information inaccurate but you didn’t adres most of the points from my ‘cutting corners’ mail or did you ?

    However I grant you it’s faily easy to find on the internet ‘proof’ for any point you want to make.

    So maybe I should log off from this discussion.

    I recognize the difficult position of Israel but do so mainly because of it’s position as a state based on ‘ethnical’ principles. This in the end may prove to be a problem in a modern world.

    By the way I somehow feel I like you and wish you and your friends lots of wisdom for the future and most specific; don’t be afraid ! Because fear is a bad advisor.

  95. wherethewindblows

    1/19/2009 at 6:52 pm

    T’would be a pity to log off, O Boris, particularly seeing you are prepared to discuss rather than rant. I’m don’t feel too easy about ‘loyalty’ being a right-wing thing: I think it is more fundamental quality than a mere matter of politics: it is what is there despite difference of opinion between right-wing and left-wing groups: it is the quality that stops a son going ‘over the top’ when in disagreement with his father (for instance). If one doesn’t have a fundamental sense of loyalty towards one’s own country, one is doomed to experience a sense of exile whilst still living there. Incidentally, I’m have exiled myself from what was my country, simply because tyranny is the order of the day there. I feel a sense of loyalty to my new country, despite the fact I voted for a different party.

  96. themiddle

    1/20/2009 at 12:56 am

    Boris, I love Israel but I’m not its spokesperson.

    I’ll try to respond to your claims. In the future, however, do me a favor and avoid using Wikipedia as a source particularly for contentious topics like the Israeli-Arab conflict. If you do use it, at least try to find their links or notes that guide you to primary sources.

    Israel has many flaws and its history is one of war with Arabs, including local Arabs who then became part of Israel’s citizenry. There was martial law imposed upon them in the early years of the state and although they have been free to vote there is discrimination within Israeli society. Arab families are not always welcome to live in Jewish neighborhoods, the education system doesn’t provide equal resources to Arab constituents, the government doesn’t hire anywhere near enough Arabs in proportion to their percentage of Israeli society, and worst of all, as a group they are not entirely trusted by a large proportion of the Jewish population.

    But…

    Arab women have more rights and freedoms in this society than any Arab society in the ME. They were the first to get the right to vote and are offered social protection that’s unavailable to them in most Muslim and Arab countries.

    The state subsidizes large families, Jewish and Arab, which has benefited the Arab community for decades.

    In civil matters, Muslims and Christians have panels led by religious figures who rule and control their population with respect to Israel’s civil laws (marriage, divorce, etc.). This is no different than the Rabbinate which controls Jewish civic life.

    Until last week, Arabs had three parties representing them in the Knesset, Israel’s parliament. They area also represented within some of Israel’s largest parties and in the past two governments there has been at least one Arab minister.

    Higher education is subsidized in Israel and all the universities have large numbers of Arab students. If you go to Haifa University, you’d swear that it’s an Arab campus with some Jewish students. Haifa is a pretty good university.

    You have Arab lawyers and doctors, Arab human rights groups, Arab politicians, Arab artists, Arab restaurants and thriving Arab villages where you see very large new homes that indicate affluence.

    It is true that Arabs are not asked to serve in the IDF, except for Druze and Bedouin, but that has ceased to be a hindrance in Israeli society especially when compared with 30 or 40 years ago. On the other hand, Arab communities are notoriously bad tax payers and won’t commit to even doing national service instead of military service.

    In other words, they are happy to accept the fruits of democracy and Israel’s system but aren’t good about giving back. This has been especially true during wars. In the Lebanon war and again in this war, it was clear that many Israeli Arabs identified with the enemy not with Israel. This is why the Knesset just voted two Arab parties out, prohibiting them from running for office. In large part it’s because their politicians spoke in support of the enemy. That’s significant disloyalty and a cause of concern for Israelis. But there haven’t been round-ups or false arrests to stop this behavior.

  97. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/20/2009 at 2:32 pm

    Thanks,

    I notice even you have a distinct disliking of Israeli Palestinians. “They are happy to accept the fruits of democracy” (a democracy which deems them inferior, B) but they are “notoriously bad tax payers”

    Yeah, and all jews have a large nose and they always take your money. If you see what I mean….

    About Wikipedia, If you don’t like it’s contents, change it !! Otherwise, it may just be about right..

    I’m sorry I’m a bit pissed, I’v just seen some pictures of Gaza….

  98. themiddle

    1/20/2009 at 3:01 pm

    Boris, I’m sorry but I was stating objective facts about taxes. I wasn’t suggesting that Arabs or Israeli Arabs are inherently bad tax-payers. I was simply stating a reported fact that Israeli Arabs often avoid paying their taxes. The reasons are probably political, not cultural, although that’s what you appear to want me to have said.

    And yes, they accept the fruits of democracy which are not enjoyed by most Arabs who live in Arab nations. Even if you consider them “inferior” within the system, which is only partially true since, as I mentioned, they have equal rights in civic matters, equal access to the courts, equal voting rights, equal access to higher education, equal family benefits from the government, etc.

    Wikipedia can’t be trusted. Their system is deeply flawed and gives an advantage to the extremists, especially those with time on their hands.

    If you’ve seen pictures of Gaza, you must be livid at Hamas for endangering their own people with the bombardments of Israel, the use of civilian clothing during a war, the mingling among civilians and the launching of attacks from civilian areas. Remember, Israel didn’t want to go in there and tried to avoid it for years.

  99. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/20/2009 at 3:28 pm

    But you can thank Hamas for their ideal response to a well timed provocation. So the assault could take place in a period that America had in effect no government and the cabinet could make itself look powerful just before the elections…

    “Wikipedia can’t be trusted. Their system is deeply flawed and gives an advantage to the extremists, especially those with time on their hands.”

    Could you point to some background information about this please.

  100. Seeking to Understand

    1/20/2009 at 5:05 pm

    I was happy to see that there are Jewish people and Israelis that empathize with what happenned with this good Doctor. I can also understand why CTC states what he does. If the “F” word is a verbal manifestation of a tank shell, then in the responses above many more girls would have been killed. As intelligent human beings, lets try to seek what underlies these strong emotions, and see how to best respond to them to show that indeed despite anger coming from your side or the other side, you remain peaceful within – understand where another persons anger comes from, and see how that anger can be resolved. F just says – OK I tried to be nice, thats not working, lets lob a shell. As someone also involved in working on Arab-Israeli peace I can state the following to both sides. Both sides have genuine emotions that are right yet irreconcilable.
    – CTC is expressing understandable anger towards what he sees as hypocracy and hubris. From his point of view all the words of peace loving Jews have never translated to policy. Arabs, whether peace loving or not, have been humiliated at check-points, border crossings, and in every aspect of their life. “The State of Israel”‘s iron fist has even betrayed the words of peace seeking leaders like Rabin and Peres. Is in intentional – I hope not – but instead of considering people to be zealots when they point out this injustice – we must look into it, and as Boris says above – we must change it. Like Obamaa said today “we can no longer afford to be indifferent to the suffering of others” – and just as Oedipus took responsibility for sleeping with his mother even though didnt mean to , did not intend to, and would have never done it willingly. it is vital to know that as Palestinians suffer injustice, they stop being able to distinguish between Israel and its individual people. Humiliation makes people unaware of the subtle difference. Even Arabs can distinguish between Bush & Cheney and the American people. However when it comes to Israel citizens are not afforded this respect. Instead of defending the state, Israels can look to themselves for ways to influence the state to be congruent in its behaviot to that of their own morality.
    Now to Mr. WTC – consider that “outlasting” enemies is not really an intelligent strategy. Getting them to change their ways is the masterful way – the Ghandi way, and it too is very difficult.
    Let us ry to be masterful. The human knee-jerk reaction to seeing hatred coming from a person towards us is a cop out. Being hateful to people who humiliate us is a cop out. God knows how hard it is to remain calm in the face of such injustice and human attrocitities. Yet we must seek out each other – those of us here that can be intelligent enough to realize we can change things – and that reconciliation is the answer – I salute you – as I salute Dr. Abu-Aish for keeping the dialogue with Israel even as he loses what he considers to be most valuable to him to the same confused Israel. I those that consider themselves menche in Israel to instill in the character of your state those qualities that you hold true, and that are represented in Tikkun Olam.

  101. themiddle

    1/20/2009 at 5:19 pm

    Boris,
    Hamas didn’t respond to a “provocation,” Hamas was trying to create a provocation and the Israelis got them. As I told you, the rockets lobbed at Israel also never entirely stopped. Besides, in the 6 months of cease fire, their rockets improved dramatically. Should Israel wait until all of its cities and citizens are in reach?

    I don’t know what information you want about Wikipedia. Just follow a hot button topic for a week and you’ll see changes that sometimes seem very biased. Meanwhile, also follow the background discussions and you’ll read people going at each other, presenting different views that are often from an extreme viewpoint. When they “settle” their differences, you don’t always get the “truth” or the facts because they all had to sign off on them. Another problem is that you often get people who are dilletantes and don’t know enough about a topic, but because anybody can have an authoritative say, they can influence a topic.

  102. wherethewindblows

    1/20/2009 at 6:00 pm

    I find so much of what you have said refreshing to say the least, ‘seeking to understand’, including your apt analogy about the F word being not unlike the ‘lobbing of shells’. I know what effect it has on me, when someone calmly and rationally enunciates a point of view (whether or not I agree with it). Rigidities and fixed points of view so often result in Gaza-like conflicts, though with all that has been said about the Israeli ‘war machine’ I do find Hamas and even more frightening proposition, and not just because of the rockets launched across the border. Tendencies to humiliate others says a lot about the hearts of those who engage in the humiliating, and once humiliated one should know never to engage in it oneself. I am not Jewish, but my sympathies lie predominantly with the Israelis because all they have had to suffer over the last two thousand years, no, even further: including their loss of their homeland at the hands of the Babylonians. I wouldn’t presume to lecture either the Israelis or the Palestinians, though my own background compels me to express my thoughts/ feelings about the needs for a homeland, self respect, listening to others, engaging in dialogue and being as honest as one can. This may all sound thoroughly wishy washy (to use an old expression) so my apologies for that.

  103. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/20/2009 at 6:02 pm

    Hamas is still there, I now understand Israel will block reconstruction materials, backed by the EU I shamefully admit.
    So not much has been won but tragedy.

    I subscribe to the ‘Seeking to Understand’ post.
    I was actually seeking to understand.

    And I think i’ve gotten a taste now of the difficulties in trying to find some connection to the Israeli voice.

    I just think there are way to many ‘Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish’ tragedies in Gaza. Where obviously there has been sheer disrespect for whatever the consequences (oh there may have been a rifle somewhere in that area ?) of blasting away at houses.

    If Hamas are criminals, I just don’t understand how the Israeli actions would be of so much higher moral standing.

    I just don’t see it, period…
    I’m sorry…

  104. Tom Morrissey

    1/20/2009 at 6:03 pm

    What in the world did Obama have in mind when he referred to “indifference”? Bush’s policies on AIDS and malaria in Africa? Our deployment of the Navy to assist victims of the Asian tsunami or our aid to victims of the Pakistani earthquake? What crap.

  105. themiddle

    1/20/2009 at 8:11 pm

    Boris, don’t be sorry. Do what I did and spend a few days in Sderot or near Sderot and play Russian roulette with your and your family’s life. Multiply that by years, mix in the improving rocket technology and then you’ll understand why there was a war. If you want to understand the war’s casualties, read the news articles informing us that Hamas soldiers were told to wear civilian clothes and mix in with civilians in civilian areas. You dismiss the result as merely rifle fire, but it’s actually probably sub-machine gun fire and all it takes is one bullet to kill or maim an Israeli soldier so expect him to fight back to aovoid death.

  106. Jonathan

    1/22/2009 at 3:07 am

    If anything good can come out of this it might be to put a chink in the ideological armour of the far right zealots who seem seem to constitute the Israeli main stream. Perhaps it will put a human face on the hundreds of children that have been criminally slaughtered in Gaza. “Israeli” is practically a synonym for “Nazi” in most of the world right now, yes I know that sounds crass but it is true I’m afraid. The Gaza attack enrages me yet I find myself pointing out to people that all Jews are not far right racist fanatics blithely discounting the bloodshed of innocent children and that there are many such as Gideon Levy, Uri Avnery and the many hundreds of Israelis arrested protesting these crimes who oppose the barbarism done in their name.

  107. themiddle

    1/22/2009 at 4:06 am

    Jonathan, when people try to tell you that Israelis resemble Nazis, just remind them that the Palestinian population in the territories has trebled since 1967 while the Nazis managed to kill 1.5 million Jews just in the first two years of the war before even implementing the Final Solution.

    Even with this attack on Gaza, the IDF estimates that over half the dead are Hamas fighters and I’m sure you’ll agree they are legitimate targets. I’m sure you’ll also agree that when Hamas fighters don civilian clothes and not only mingle with civilians but shoot from among them, then the bloodshed of innocent children cannot be blamed on the party that’s responding to thousands of rockets than have been launched at its citizens in the past years.

    Also, you’ll agree, if you look deep inside, that the terms “criminally slaughtered” implies that the Israelis wanted to kill children or didn’t do their best to avoid doing so. I suspect the Israelis tracked all of their movements and attacks in this war to address these sorts of accusations. As enraged as you are, consider that they are almost certainly not guilty of “criminal slaughter.”

    The question is whether Israel actually wanted this kind of outcome. The answer is no. Israel attempted to avoid Gaza for years. They were forced to take action by Hamas’s actions. While perhaps you have a better idea as to how to enter a territory where the enemy has prepared for you with booby-traps and ambushes, it appears the professionals in the IDF felt that their approach would be the best. The low Israeli casualty count indicates their tactics worked. I know this upsets you, but their job is preserve their own lives first and foremost.

    Your comments about Israeli “zealots” constituting the mainstream of Israeli political discourse are just wishful thinking. Between Kadima, Labor and Meretz you have a solid majority of supporters who seek peace and compromise openly.

    Finally, while Levy, Avnery and the like can criticize Israel and the IDF all day long, the reason they can do so in comfort is that the IDF has never lost a war (really lost one, not what happened in Lebanon a couple of years ago). If they tried pulling the same stunt living in Gaza or the West Bank and wrote nasty things about the Palestinians or their militias, you can rest assured they wouldn’t be permitted to do it for very long. But in Israel, Arab politicians can enter the Knesset and give speeches attacking the state and the army, then praise Israel’s enemies and nothing can be done to them. Nazi-like indeed.

  108. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/22/2009 at 5:09 am

    re. criminally slaughtered;

    http://www.btselem.org/English/

    Patterns of violence we are seeing for decades now unfortunately

  109. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    1/22/2009 at 5:49 am

    like these

    Testimony: Soldiers Killed and injured dozens of persons from a-Samuni family in a-Zeitun neighborhood, Gaza, Jan. ’09

    Maysa’ a-Samuni, 19

    Meysa a-Samuni

    On Sunday [4 January], around 9:00 A.M., soldiers came to the house of my father-in-law, Rashed a-Samuni, which is located next to a concrete engineering company. We were fourteen people in the house, all of us from a-Samuni family: me, my husband, Tawfiq, 21, our infant, Jumana, nine months old, my father-in-law, Rashed, 41, my mother-in-law, Rabab, 38, and my husband�s brothers, Musa, 19, Walid, 17, Halmi, 14, Zeineb, 12, Muhammad, 11, Shaban, 9, Issa, 7, Islam, 12, Israa, 2.

    The soldiers came to the house on foot and knocked on the door. We opened and then, threatening us with weapons, they forced us to leave the house. They had bullet-proof vests on and had automatic weapons. Their faces were painted black. We left the house. Walid ran from another door of the house, but the soldiers caught him.

    Maysa’ a-Samuni and her baby daughter in a-Shifaa hospital in Gaza City. Photo: Muhammad Sabah, B’Tselem, 8 Jan. ’09.
    Maysa’ a-Samuni and her baby daughter in a-Shifaa hospital in Gaza City. Photo: Muhammad Sabah, B’Tselem, 8 Jan. ’09.

    The soldiers led us by foot to the house of my father-in-law�s brother, Talal Halmi a-Samuni, 50, about twenty meters away. In the house were already about twenty people, and together we were thirty-five. The soldiers left us, apparently to search my father-in-law�s house.

    About an hour later, the soldiers came back and ordered us to go with them to the house of Wail a-Samuni, 40. His house is a kind of concrete warehouse, about 200 square meters big, about twenty meters from Talal�s house, where we were. We reached Wail�s house at 11:00 A.M. There were already thirty-five people there, so now we were about seventy in total. We stayed there until the next morning. We didn’t have food or drink.

    Around six o�clock in the morning [Monday, 5 January], it was quiet in the area. One of the men in the family, �Adnan a-Samuni, 20, said that he wanted to go and bring his uncle and family so they could be with us. My father-in law and his nephew, Salah Talal a-Samuni, 30, and his cousin Muhammad Ibrahim a-Samuni, 27, were standing at the door of the house and planned on going together to bring them. The moment they left the house, a missile or shell hit them. Muhammad was killed on the spot and the others were injured from the shrapnel. My husband went over to them to help, and then a shell or missile was fired onto the roof of the warehouse. Based on the intensity of the strike, I think it was a missile from an F-16.

    When the missile struck, I lay down with my daughter under me. Everything filled up with smoke and dust, and I heard screams and crying. After the smoke and dust cleared a bit, I looked around and saw 20-30 people who were dead, and about twenty who were wounded. Some were severely wounded and some lightly.

    The persons killed around me were my husband, who was hit in the back, my father-in-law, who was hit in the head and whose brain was on the floor, my mother-in-law Rabab, my father-in-law�s brother Talal, and his wife Rhama Muhammad a-Samuni, 45, Talal�s son�s wife, Maha Muhammad a-Samuni, 19, and her son, Muhammad Hamli a-Samuni, 5 months, whose whole brain was outside his body. Razqa Muhammad a-Samuni, 50, Hanan Khamis a-Samuni, 30, and Hamdi Majid a-Samuni, 22.

    My husband�s brother, Musa, and I were lightly injured. Musa was injured in the shoulder and my left hand was injured. My daughter was injured in the left hand. Her thumb, second finger, and third finger had been cut off. I took a kerchief and wrapped her hand to stop the bleeding. The wounded who lay on the floor cried for help and couldn�t move. The small children and my husband�s grandmother, Shifaa a-Samuni, 70, were crying.
    About fifteen minutes after the second strike, Musa said that it would be better to escape and go to the house of his uncle, Assad a-Samuni, about twenty meters away. We ran and knocked on the gate, but nobody answered. Musa jumped over the gate and opening it and we went inside. We were me, my daughter, Musa, and his little sisters Islam, 5, and Isra, 2. There were 40-50 soldiers in the house, and more people were gathered in one of the rooms. There were about thirty people, 7-10 of them men. The men were blindfolded.

    One of the soldiers came to me and gave me and my daughter first-aid. He bandaged our hands and checked our pulse. Then the soldiers tied Musa and blindfolded him.

    The soldiers told us that they would release us and leave only Musa and his uncle �Emad in case Hamas came. I understood that they intended to use them as �human shields.� They ordered us to leave the house, and we walked along the street about 400-500 meters until we found an ambulance, which took me and my daughter to a-Shifaa Hospital. The others from my family continued to walk in the street. Later, some of them also arrived at the hospital.

    As far as I know, the dead and wounded who were under the ruins are still there. I didn’t see that any of them had been brought to the hospital.

    Testimony of Maysa’ Fawzi a-Samuni, 19, married with an infant daughter, homemaker, resident of Gaza City, The testimony was given to Iyad Haddad by telephone on 7 January 2009

  110. Boris Nieuwenhuijzen

    7/15/2009 at 11:04 am

    ….and six months (and very right-wing electionresults ) later the reports by Amnesty and Breaking the Silence seem to indicate very foul tactics by the IDF indeed.

    So people, still very proud of it all ??

  111. Pingback: IOF soldier sentenced to 45 days for killing Palestinian mother, her daughter - Page 3 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

  112. Pingback: Syrian refugees to be pass surgery in North hospital - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

melbet зеркало мелбет регистрация
%d bloggers like this: