I struggle with labels, really I do. I’ve long said that everyone these days seems eager to slap a new and inventive label (Hippiedox, Conservadox, Flexidox) on themselves in order to describe their uniquely complex and nuanced relationship with Judaism ( e.g., “I go to an Orthodox shul, but go to the gym Shabbat afternoon, and will take the subway because, like a Shabbat elevator, it stops at every station anyway”). As a result, no label really means anything anymore.
So, during my brief period on Frumster, I aligned myself with the most newly founded and most liberal category or label: “Traditional and Growing.” I chose this label because not choosing a label was not an option, and because this seemed like the most moderate, the most liberal, the most (if not exactly) resemblant of my observance. All the other labels included terms that I would never use to describe myself: yeshivish, black hat, ba’al teshuvah, etc)
Because the people contacting me were never people I could see myself with religiously (and because none of them seemed to possess anything resembling a sense of humor), I deactivated my Frumster profile last month, but today, got this message from their customer support team informing me that I’d been “reclassified.”
Dear Member,
Your observance category of “Traditional and Growing†has recently been re-classified to a Jewish Outlook of “Traditional or Non-Orthodoxâ€.
Members within this Jewish Outlook now need to choose an affiliation from the list below:
Traditional and Growing
Traditional
Conservadox
Conservative
OtherIf you do not choose an affiliation, your profile display will be listed as Traditional.
Forget for a minute the fact that I’ve deactivated my profile, so I shouldn’t be getting these messages anyway. After my initial chuckle about being reclassified, I was pretty happy to see this. Because it’s an acknowledgment that there’s more to observance than Orthodoxy (which is how things were set up initially).
Is this improvement enough to get me back on board at Frumster? Not really. Because another word I would never use is right there in the name of the site: “frum.” The connotations don’t really jive with my outlook. Because people expect me to come up with some sort of label, I do. I use Conservadox, or Traditional, or Observant. But for the most part people just end up shaking their heads, wanting the specifics: Do you eat dairy out? Do you use electricity on Shabbat? When you get married will you cover your hair?
Maybe the nebulous they in the ether of the internet should create a site for people who are “As Jewish As We Wanna Be.” People write essays and essays (and not particularly well, at that) for online dating services about what they’re looking for in a partner. I say make ’em write an old-school thesis (#2 pencils optional) about the kind of Jewish life they live now and how they’d like a partner to help them build a Jewish home. Force them to think about Judaism as a lifestyle and describe it to someone they’ve never met before.
I’ve seen and heard parents, urging their children to stop crying and actually express themselves verbally, tell the whiny kid to “use your words.” Maybe that’s the trick…it’s not “use your word,” or “use your label.” If a kid grunted “hungry” or “frustrated,” would parents be happier? It’s use your words, preferably in a full sentence, with a subject and predicate (don’t make me diagram what a proper sentence looks like).
We should all use our words, and not rely on labels or assumptions to make ourselves understood. If we’re lucky, it could lead to dancing.
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In business world, for instance, as opposed to claiming “My company is expert,” you demonstrate that you are specialist with a superior, well made, well written internet site. Longer conversations may get uncomfortable or go so well that it amps up assumptions. Depending on the individual you messaged, your message might wind up obtaining shed in a sea of unread messages that seem just the exact same. This is since while you can locate compatibility online, you can’t evaluate the trigger up until you meet in person – and, up until you confirm that, you should not obtain your hopes up. New regulation: The second date is where it begins to count Because the first day is even more of a chemistry examination than an enchanting meet, it’s completely fine to maintain it short: assume coffee or a fast beverage. While the excitement part of this is hard to manage, it is wise to not place all your hopes in one day. The challenging component of developing a link with somebody is still as much as you, however equipping yourself with these ideas can guarantee that you don’t scare someone away with a weird profile photo or an unpleasant message. If you feel that online dating is not working out for you, then you’re not the only one; yet do not fire the carrier.
And also, most importantly, if you ever feel unpleasant or harassed when chatting with a suit, stop talking to them and also report them on the application. Do you really assume the individual you’re speaking with online is just chatting to you today? Not only will it show you properly to create a great account, yet it will likewise provide tips on how to maintain remarks arriving. Since in truth, your heading as well as your photo are the 2 points that can make women open your account or shut it (swipe right or left, etc). As a matter of fact, they may simply be the last first day you’ll ever need to go on – so you have to make them count. In some cases, you’ll find a match. Save the candlelit dinners and also the butterflies for the 2nd date – since after that you’ll recognize if you have the compatibilty and chemistry to take points even more. I have actually observed that this is something which particularly the Millenials my not yet even understand about.
Thank you for every other informative blog.
Thank you for every other informative blog.
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my experience with frumster has been very positive.
I feel like across miles and miles of land there are people who share my vision of similar lifestyles.
What I’m interested in is a frum guy with an open mind to the outside world, who wants to live in Israel. Who also is easy going with a sense of humor.
And honestly, I’m having a great time just talking to people across the Jewish communities! and they’re funny and witty, and we just roll jokes and touch on important points. and people are pretty open minded about the restrictions of the labels.
Maybe the website just doesn’t suit you, but please don’t speak Lashon Hara about it.
Good luck!
I found that http://www.datingsitedirect.com has some good online dating site listings (including Jewish sites). It’s worth checking out.
Ive always wondered why does halacha require that a man please his wife maritally when in fact it is the man that clearly needs it and women seem to do fine without it?!!
Have we american girls lost our sex appeal? i know that american jewish men find israeli woman as hot,and israeli men think american jewish woman are plain. Maybe i need to go to israel to buy clothes ,hairstyle, and learn to walk like a sabra. Is it true that we american woman have lost our sexiness? Do we really go to the mall in sneakers and sweatsuits while the israeli, italian, and madrid girls get the eye time from our boys? Any ideas? I wrote you in the other section yesterday. The other day in manhattan I passed an israeli woman . She was all dressed up in scarf and sweaterand her hair was set nicely and al the guys just stoppedcand looked. Is there a place in NYC where i can go to learn how to be a lil more sexy or israelize myself? Any israeli girls out there who can help? My dad said its the accent,that american jewisg men are turned on by an accentin a girls , Maybe i need to fake an israeli accent. Im almost 40 and I still havent met My Mr Right. ill settlr for Mr ok eben Mr maybe
PS, for those of you interested in continuing this discussion, Frumster just announced that they’re opening up their service to those Jews who are looking for a serious partner, but who don’t self-define as frum. How do I know? I have my sources.
…and that’s why we like you, Michael…
Nah. I like my ladies with exposed elbows. What can I say? I’m shallow.
and to some, frum means super sexy. just ask michael.
Dati. In Yiddish.
what is frum?! i’ve been jewish for 20 years and i never ever heard that term until i started reading this blog. i mean i gathered that “frum” girls are tznuot, but there must be more to it.
ZIZA Saada: Uh… that’s not the way we do things here. You email us about your party and then we can put up a post about it. Otherwise this looks like, you know, comment spam. I’ll leave it on because a Sephardic Rabbi is involved, but next time please follow protocol! Have a good party.
End of Summer Bash-Pre-Rosh Hashana singles party
Sunday Sept. 25th, Beit Shaul V’Miriam, 2208 Ave S, Brooklyn NY Chalav Yisrael dinner Rabbi Ben-Abu to speak on the life of Singles and transition to Marriage, For singles or divorcees, Orthodox, Modern or Growing into Judaism.
Meet singles and mingle to find your Match(Bashert) All ages. e-mail [email protected] for reservations. Proceeds go to Ahavat Kol Yisrael…Jerus. Israel to feed poor for Shabbat & holidays…e-mail today…reserve
At JQS.com – JMatch.com we ask people to explain what role Judaism play in their life. No two answers are alike…We also have a “flexible” to accomodate all shades…
I wonder–who came up with these titles, and what exactly their meaning is? Is one who is Flexidox good @ Jewish Yoga and Meditation? How about Conservadox–A dash of Conservative to Orthodox–and PRESTO! BEHOLD A CONSERVADOX!!!!! Another STREAM??? I DIDNT KNOW WE WERE IN WATER, CAPITANO!!!Look, you are what you are. Many people can say they are “Modern Ortho Liberal” Or “Mod Ortho Machmir”–or before you can say “TomCruiseEmbrassassesHimselfYetAgain” there will be a Modern MachmirLiberOx. I think everyone has their own definitions of what each label is, and as each person is a microcosm in and of themselves, with diff life experiences–dont take the labels too seriously. Be yourself. Actually? I am looking for a MENTCHADOX. Can we incorporate this one into the online web sites? Lets get crackin, peeps.
Then it’s a catch-22: We need the labels to understand where people are coming from. But then people are resistant to being categorized and often feel the need to qualify their self-categorization or affiliation with a specific group. By doing that, the label loses its resonance. So what’s the point in using the labels to begin with? Yikes.
Maybe its so difficult to define with labels because of the need of them, which is that everyone has different opinions on the definitions of Judaism or being Jewish?
I wonder if those blogs are in archive
Hey Middleman, life at UCSB is a mixed blessing for sure… great scenery, but man, there’s been a huge increase in fundies there. Can’t even enjoy a nice relaxing break in front of the library without getting preached to by one group or another.
nerdgirl (class of ’82 & ’93, last visit ’03)
What happened the the other 25 or so blogs since?
Also any more posting of IP Addresses will result in simiar activity, I have all of my old blogs w/such informations.
Pee is unhealthy to drink. Not unhealthy to touch. It is used by the body to remove that which is needed for natural cleansing mode. Being that we eat many chemicals and the air is worse, it is possible that this was not as unhealthy some years ago. Today it would be morally wrong for both the pee er, and the peed upon, to engage in this activity.
I believe that Chutzpah has one simple problem that she is living the anger of her miserable dopey ex husband. If you follow her blogs you will note a very irrational level of actions.
I emphathize deeply w/ her, but wish to point out, that it would be more healthy if she accept full responsibility. That she ultimately chose to marry the dope. Now people do change unfortunately. But this will happen in every marriage, the partners are going to change.
This anger is manifest in very twisted instant attacks on people, if they happen to claim some kind of affiliation w/ Orthdoxy.
It would be more holistic to accept what has happened, to not want ex to be anything but a Dope. Like a patch of weed that you have to uproot and throw away.
My Blessing for you Chutzpah, is that we should all hear great things from you, and your children, and you should find a man that is right for you, that appreciates, the wonderful qualities that you possess.
Conserva-girl: your proposed dating site categories are right on. I’d go further, and make them purely arbitrary. Relying instead on nature, cupid, serendipity, or metaphysical intervention.
And you’re a Sox fan? In NY? The Kennedy Library should fly you up here for one of the Profile in Courage awards!
(Middleman, shoulda gone to USD (actually have long fantasized about life at UCSB), but Camp Eli was the reference.)
I forgot, no Baruch Hashems here. I wonder if I just did a Jewlicious sin.
B”H
I keep my Tsitsit whipped out. When my Litvok Grandmother, obm, first saw me with my Tsitsit for the first time she grabbed ahold of them frantically and demanded a chance to make a pocket for them so they wouldn’t have to stick out. It took her awhile; she eventually stoped that. She must have realized it wouldn’t do any good to Chok N’Chinek. I know that in Riga, where she was from before the “Great War” – WW1 jews got beat up in streets for looking like jews. Probally afterwards as well if the Nazis that took over didn’t kill us first or send us to camps in Poland. Such fear based Yentaism is reasonable in a sense I see a need to be respectfull and understand her position. There some other Yenta fear based attitude I find less reasonable and much less tolerent of.
I take a bow. Which did you get?
If you think you could send me a few recipes Jewish Ma, I’d be in your debt. Im sephardic but I dont think Ive ever actually had sephardic dishes…
I have bought a few Sephardi cookbooks. Just because of Jewlicious.
Conserva-Girl, that is brilliant!
Okay, so to bring us full circle, I propose that you do away with the current dating site classifications and replace them shibboleth: Are you into NASCAR? What percentage do you tip at restaurants? Tsitsis in or out at baseball games? Kippah or baseball cap on Sunday?
Wikipedia:
Shibboleths can also be customs or practices, such as male circumcision.
Its like guy stuff? The opposite of a Chick flick or like Barbie dolls?
Sorry. Remember the book of Judges? If not, then try the Wikipedia.
What the hell is a shibboleth? Why would you embarrass Jewish males further by bringing up unfamiliar race car names?
I think that NASCAR knowledge is a perfect example of a shibboleth.
Tom-
Ever heard of Derek Lowe? Yep, Torre messed up big-time, but I didn’t shed too may tears. Go Sox!
Listen, Morrissey, if you’re going to talk way above our heads, this is just not going to lead ANYWHERE. The main thing is, did ya like the hot dogs they served? Or a little too spicey?
jsirpicco, to answer your question: Vasquez, Brown, Johnson, Pettitte, Clemens… A rogue’s gallery of souless mercenaries.
Baseball’s a bad litmus, as Conserva-girl says. After all, Theo Epstein, America’s most illustrious Jewish-American, present company excluded (and fellow grad of my alma mater) runs the reigning world champs…
(Conserva-girl, tell ’em tomorrow that Torre messed up by blowing out the bullpen last year…)
Jsirpicco, it was a joke about the misses, not about you…You consistently make me laugh, btw, so why would I wish to “drag you down?”
And yeah…NASCAR would probably be the dividing line. You know how in the movies the Nazis make the men pull down their pants to show whether they’re circumcized? It would be just as effective to shout at them, “Okay, how long is the Daytona 400?” If they get it wrong, they’re Jewish men.
NASCAR!!!! Conserva-girl, you Rock. Oh! I love Jewish chick, they are smart, sexy and with it.
You were so close -but you got me on the right track. So, yeah. Okay, “Tom” – Who’s #1 on Nascar Circuit right now? Hmmm? (Supressing the answer? Aha! )
Re the misses: don’t sweat it, wrote it twice by mistake – it is part of life sometimes…let’s not drag each other down…
j-
What kind of qualifying test is that? In any tri-state shul, on any given Shabbos, just after Musaf amidah, at least 25% of the men are discussing the merits of the Yanks’ ’01 bullpen vs. the shmoes (their word, not mine) they’ve got this year.
I think you meant to say hockey. Aside from maybe ck up north, what do Jews know from hockey?
I’m sure we all lament the misses, Jsirpicco.
Morriessey is an Imposter! He’s not a goy at all! He’s a Jewish guy, pretenting to be a goy, pretending to be interested in Jewish stuff so he can knock up our pure Esther!
Test: Quick, Tom: Name 3 starting pitchers on the New York Yankees -FROM THE LAST 5 YEARS!!!!! (If you can’t- you’re one of us. If you can, but are pretending not to, then you’re one of “them.” And if you know what they earned, then you’re one of us again!
And yes, I have real “seed” – potent, too! 5 kids in 9 years potent (plus some misses, plus some misses)
Tom, you have done well in your research. In fact, you may wish to revisit that entire discussion that we have shared regarding the new Pope being…reactionary, not unlike some of the people on our site who advocate…reactionary views in Judaism.
Anyway, you are correct that among Orthodox, Judaism is passed along through matrilineal lines, although Reform rejects this view and blames the father as well.
As for my looks, what can I say…I seem to recall there being a time when some lovely members of the fair sex…oh, never mind…
Wow, Conserva-Girl. Thanks for the marketing niche!
If by ‘tall’, you mean 5’9″, and ‘blonde’, brownish hair, then I’m all set. (Too Aryan might be a tad… strange…)
Actually, Tom, you’ve got the sperm donor advantage. As a newbie, your genes are the least inbred. Especially if you’re tall and blonde, I say go for it.
I take a few hours off to attend to hygeine and raise my blood sugar level, log back on with a hopeful smile, only to find– we’re back to sperm donation?
Maybe it’s meant to be. And, apropos “suitable” donor candidates amongst us- I nominate Middleman. He has a track record of perpetuating the species, I gather. He’s bright–maybe too bright to be extremely good-looking– but then again, we’re cutting to the chase. No romantic preliminaries. An impersonal mode of, uh, delivery.
Jsirpicco? I don’t think he’s an actual person with actual sperm, but a character from a Martin Amis novel.
I’m aghast at chutzpah’s chutzpah. This is no laughing matter. So many women (read: Esther) wrestle daily with the absence of sperm from their lives. How about some compassion?
Pulled an all-nighter reading up on Orthodoxy. Kinda like Catholicism, only different. No pope, no rottweiler… hmm, seems odd. (I’ll make a few suggestions at the appropriate time.)
Don’t like shellfish, anyway: check. Second set of plates for Passover? Don’t have a first set. Should be able to deal with that. No milk runs after 3 p.m. Fridays? OK.
And guess what, guys? My kids are Jewish even if I’m not, as long as mom is.
Which puts ME into play for sperm donation…
As I recall a French 64 year old gave birth with some interesting details. I thought I heard that she used her brother’s sperm. I am not exactly sure how that was done. Because the “how” could be relevent to the issue of Incest?
Esther HaNaviah! is that so?
I just can’t see what ever post is in here unless I chime in with something. Is this a permenant feature about this establishment?
Boker tov on this post line again
At this rate, I predict in 2035, a 64-year-old American woman will give birth…
And as to donors, “suitable” still remains the issue.
Thats how I read of stories of women as old as 64 giving birth. If I find the articles, I will give a reference. As I recall, there was an Israeli woman who gave birth at 62.
With a combination of sperm and egg donation, That could make three parties involved. Sperm guy, egg female and birth female. 3 people who don’t have to know each other.
boker tov, anything of note?
nor here
Donors are easy to find. Sperm is the most commonly discarded fluid on earth. In fact, if they could figure out a way to make car run on it, it would solve the oil shortage, and it would be “wasted” or “spilled” if it was being pumped into the gas tanks of cars, they would just have to be retrofitted with plastic masterbation sleeves….
However, O’s gorgeous designer did refuse Haley Berry, so I don’t think you are going to get any of his…
I feabliy attempted to defend O Magazine on Backspin under the chutzpahdik name of “Anon” but I’m alittle afraid of the people over there if anyone wants to read my “fruit of the my womb” line…
I understand from an article I did on egg donation that neither the sperm nor the egg has to “be Jewish”–as long as the womb is in a woman who is Jewish, the baby’s Jewish. The only problem remains finding a suitable donor.
If Judiasm is transmitted through the mother, then there really should be no problem with the sperm donor issue.
no baruch hashems here
lets see?
I expect a lot of “what about you”
Its obvious, I don’t take Frumster seriously in proportion to the time I spent wrangling with the site. But this internet dating is something, no doubt about that. My younger brother met his fiance on jdate. She is a Mexican (Yehudia….). They plan on getting Married in September G-d willing. She is even crazy enough to be religious, not as Crazy as I am, but crazy. She is even whipping my brother into doing crazy religious stuff.
Ma Kara po?
Uh, Esther, would you consider a Conservative conversion?
I’m Orthodox? Wow, you learn something new every day. And for the record, sirpicco, I got it earlier. I just didn’t think it was funny, so I thought there must have been more to it that I didn’t get. Guess not.
And as for you, Tom Morrissey, what with your Shakespearean constancy and e-flirtiness…why don’t you prove your dedication by cleaning and hosting Passover? That should steer you right back to the exhilaration of communion, confession and genuflection.
YOG spelled backwards is GOY! Yes Esther, you got if 2 hours later, and now the ENTIRE JEWISH COMMUNITY IS IN DANGER!! Again – everybody, TALK ABOUT SPORTS, NOW!! Till we know if we can trust him! Go Chargers!
For Esther, you must go Orthodox. Fortunately for you, modern Orthodox is fine and you won’t need to wear a shtreimel.
But if she’s worth a circumcision, she’s worth becoming Orthodox…
Apparently I’m as dumb and dumberer as the rest of the girls. Unless jsirpicco was spelling “goy” backwards. Reform, huh, TM? Well, I could get used to having my fish sticks shrimp-encrusted.
Middleman, I defer to your superior expertise in this matter. Conservative? Orthodox? (Hey, I like Joe Lieberman, even if he does get along with Republicans.) Which way should I go? What’ll float Esther’s boat?
Now, jsirpicco, I’m deeply offended. Yankee references are fightin’ words to this Bostonian and Sawx season ticket-holder. Bronson Arroyo rocks, baby.
Esther, your pertly dismissive words can only be construed as a clever test of my intentions. Ah, but rest assured of my constancy…
Esther, Tom is already circumcized, but the problem for you is he’d only consider Reform Judaism.
Oh well.
Esther, I thought you said you were a SMART Jewish girl, and you don’t get what Jsirpicco is talking about re: my preivous EXCELLENTLY FUNNY POST?????
I was laughing as I typed – and I’m damn hard to please!
As usual, I have no idea what jsirpicco’s talking about. Tom, I think we’d best just be friends. Once you went ahead (sorry) with the bris, you’d be just as interested in me as the rest of the Jewish men in the world. Which helps me not a whit, except toward my license to artificially inseminate and become a single mom at age 43 or so (thanks for that official permit, chutzpah…)
And although I’m glad Netsach has a repertoire of dating jokes, I highly recommend that he not use them in his first contact to women on frumster. Say something real, responsive to the content of their profiles, not canned and formulaic, even if it’s funny. I beg of you.
No wife can compete with a motorcycle club. No woman would even try.
Here is Joke #2 amongst my frumser devices for first contact:
George, age 92, and Edith, age 89, had been seeing each other for 2 years when they decided that life was too short and they might as well be together for the rest of their lives.
Excited about their decision to become newlyweds, they went for a stroll to discuss the wedding and what plans need to be made. Along their way, they found themselves in front of a drugstore. George said to his bride-to-be, “Let’s go in. I have an idea.”
They walked to the rear of the store and addressed the man behind the counter:
“Are you the owner?” asked George.
The pharmacist answered, “Yes, sir. I am. How can I help you?”
George: “Do you sell heart medications?”
Pharmacist: “Of course we do.”
George: “How about support hose for circulation?”
Pharmacist: “Definitely.”
George: “What about medications for rheumatism, osteoporosis and arthritis?”
Pharmacist: “All kinds.”
George: “How about waterproof furniture pads and Depends?”
Pharmacist: “Yes sir.”
George: “Hearing aids, denture supplies and reading glasses?”
Pharmacist: “Yes.”
George: “What about eye drops, sleeping pills, Geritol, Preparation-H and ExLax?”
Pharmacist: “Absolutely.”
George: “You sell wheelchairs, walkers and canes?”
Pharmacist: “All kinds and sizes. Why all these questions?”
George smiled, glanced shyly at Edith and replied to the pharmacist, “We’ve decided to get married and we’d like to use your store as our Bridal Registry
WAIT A SECOND…..we have a major YOG alert going on here….Morrissey isn’t TRIBAL? omg omg omg omg omg!!!!!!! Jews, people, start BEHAVING YOURSELVES!!!! He’s WATCHING US!!! Listening (okay, reading) all of our weird neurotic postings that only JEWS CAN UNDERSTAND…He’s never going to get it, don’t you understand? We are GUESTS in this COUNTRY>..
Quick: CK -I DEMAND THAT YOU TALK ABOUT SPORTS! NOW! Yankees, they’re in New York, right? Hey, that’s cool. Very cool. Anybody want some beer? Heinekin? Miller Gold? Taiiiillllgate!