The 4th annual Gay Pride Parade just happened outside my balacony. The decision to ban the event was overturned by a court on Sunday and Mayor Lupolianski was ordered to personally pay court costs of NIS 30,000 as well as put up rainbow flags lining the route.
How cute they all were. The cutest thing of all was that they were all sporting pink ribbons instead of the now ubiquitous orange or blue disengagement ones. The color scheme moved from rainbow to pink to a purple religious lesbian group to pink and blue for bisexualty followed by the green of the the police force and the black and white of the yeshiva bochurs in their own half-assed counter-parade.
See, unfortunetly, not everyone was taken by the cuteness and two participants in the parade were stabbed by a supposedly religious Jewish man. I don’t care what you think of homosexuality, but stabbing people is just wrong, and a hilul Hashem and a sin, especially by religous standards. A little more chesed, a little less gevurah, people.
In any case, World Pride has been rescheduled for 2006 because of the security situation surrounding the disengagement that would have complicated matters. Pink and orange would have been a little to much, it seems.
It’s funny, because just yesterday I commented to a friend that a billbord we passed was a little
homoerotic to which she replied “I think this whole country is a little homoerotic.”
Exhibit A. This was NOT at the gay pride parade. This was the Orange Music Festival I was at the other night to hear Faithless and Infected Mushroom and get some more research for the story I’m writing.
This man was not gay and this act of butt showing was entirely uncalled for.
- Shabbat in the Uttermost West - 2/25/2007
- The chosen books of the chosen people - 2/18/2007
- Why Not Al? - 2/15/2007
collin – we’ll get to it when we get to it. relax. Geez.
I got a response from David Abitbol, and I sent him a request for the edit. The edit has not occurred.
*sigh* send an email to jewlicious [at] gmail dot com – I have yet to receive anything, but I’ll keep looking.
I still haven’t received an email.
I have contacted you under the new email address. Did that bounce also?
Collin: It would help if when contacting us you provided an email address that didn’t bounce. Please try again but carefully this time. And provide detailed info.
I have already asked for permission to edit my posts, and I have received no answer. Obviously the managers have no interest in allowing us to do teshuvah.
Edit: “Gary” is not welcome here, as he has been told, and his content isn’t either.
People whose sensibilities lead them to murder millions of people just because they see an event they don’t like should be shot in the prefrontal lobe.
Hi, I’m an antisemitic idiot who thinks I should visit this site every once in a while.
Over the past two weeks, I’ve had the growing realization that there’s wrong with that last sentence. I asked my mother what she thinks, and she clarified the issue. It’s not about halacha; it’s about solidarity. Gays were one of the groups that Hitler tortured. They have as much right as we do to thank G-d for ending the Holocaust.
It’s sad to see that the issue of whether to hold a march in Jerusalem is being used as an excuse to hate gays. It’s even sadder to see one of my own people using the N word.
And what about the “Parade of Beasts” counter-march that I heard about on television? Did that really happen? If so, what does it say about us?
Now that in my country America there is a march protesting a real injustice. I would ask the gay marchers what they were protesting. We don’t live in tents anymore. We live in houses, where no one can see or hear what we do. Has anyone infringed on their rights to love each other as they please?
I don’t keep a kosher home, but I certainly wouldn’t hold a “treif pride” rally at my Synagogue.
Such an abomination will not be tolerated in the Holy City. Sooner or later G-d’s wrath will be unleashed.
Letting people parade like that down the streets of the Holy City.
And you wonder why G-d didn’t come to your aide during your last war.
Look at the Torah. G-d abandons Israel when Israel abandons G-d. When Israel abandons G-d then G-d leaves Israel to the mercy(or I should say lack of mercy) of Israel’s enemies.
That’s been Israel’s history forever.
This is sickening! The disease spread by homosexuals! You jews must be very happy, you have made the great Race prevert itself from within. We will always fight.
88.
God loves everyone no matter if they are hetrosexual or homosexual. How do we know that homosexuality is a genetic thing over which people don’t have choice? Some of the views people have are so immature…
Jerusalem the beautiful city,God says so much about it prostituting itself, and that does it. But its in his hands and as the bible says vengeance is mine. Id be scared if I lived there.
Stop the madness. Having a gay pride parade in Jerusalem is like having Arafat as Prime Minister of Israel. READ YOUR TORAH!
GAY PEOPLE are not advocating war on this planet. Religious factions and facists have used their beliefs for many hundreds of centuries to support their agendas to control their minions.
Now we are going to bring democracy to the world,
not Armageddon, nor a Messiah.
The Torah, the Bible, the Koran, etc. (all the books that have been used to maintain control over their subjects have never contributed to the advancement of humanity; they were written to exert tribal control over their subjects) and the world is still controlled by those people who profit by using these books, which are the equivalent of supermarket tabloids.
“MARTIAN BABY BORN! THE MESSIAH WAS BORN YESTERDAY AFTER A SPACE CAPSULE LANDED ON MARS AND A FEMALE ASTRONAUT NAMED MIRIAM GAVE BIRTH TO A HEALTHY BOY NAMED MARY.”
Sounds like a prophecy!
Charlie
New York
When are you right-wing anti-intellectual, literal-word-fundamentalists going to grow some spiritual maturity?
I am a lesbian rabbinical student … go on now and have a lovely heart attack!
Hashem tells me that it would be a sin for me not to honor him by spending my life in a committed relationship with another Jewish woman of equally true and faithful neshamah. Hashem says that it would be a sin for me to lie with a man, as I would be dishonoring myself, and profaning the alter that God has lent me with which to carry out holiness in the world. May you all get a clue and stop hating, judging and thinking you know the Torah and Hashem better than others. You don’t. Period.
We are still coming.
One by one.
They marked us during the Holcaust we were the first to die.
During the middle ages we were burned with thatches of branches.
Does this make up less than anyone else.
Not in Hashem’s eyes.
We are all equal to Hashem.
I bought a new bathing suit and Mark Pressler approved of it 😉 after we did our photo shoot together. (ask us for details)
Besides the bathing suit says 06 on it so it needs to be worn this year!
I am resolved to go to Israel. I have stood up in times when my fellows have fallen due to AIDS. As peoples lives are effected by the current situation in Israel the best show of support I can do is to show that life must go on. This is how I live my life. I have hope when their is none. I show others that no matter what happens you can go on. This I can do. This I can be. I will not falter when others try to scare me. I will not flinch when I am yelled at. I am a warrior of love, peace and hope and no one will deter me on my path.
Yosef “Baruch”
Bathing Suit that shows god’s gifts = $45.00
Skimpy underwear = $18.00
Coppertone 30 SPF to ensure a nice cinnamon tone = $10.99
Snorkeling in Eliat = 16 shekels
Dance in Tel Aviv with a juice mixer= 8 shekels
Kissing a mysterious Israeli in Jerusalem during World Pride = Priceless
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/29775/edition_id/561/format/html/displaystory.html
I despise these sodomites. How do you expect Hashem to be on our side when we have this filth parading in the streets. I am so pleased to hear that the parade has been canceled, boruch hashem. and btw, I am not a very religious jew i just go to a religious synagogue because reform and conservative disgust me (I’m a Russian Jew) because of their intermarriage, interfaith dialogs, and rabbi rachel’s commentary on the talmud on a microphone on shabbas.
Oh my G-d! When Ben David talks about gays living a life of “promiscuity,” he isn’t at my house where my partner and I are in bed by 10:30 every night so we can get up and work the next day. Where is all this promiscuity that we are missing out on? Maybe Ben David can tell me where he goes for fun – if he knows all about the good time gays are having. I’ll be home with my dependable boring life of greater meaning.
I find nothing wrong with homosexuality. My Rabbi is Gay and I support him 100%. He is a great man and G-d must have made him gay for a reason. So I am glad they had the Parade in Israel.
Any news of Jewlicious and World Pride 2006?
Israel is one of the only places in the middle east where homosexuals can even live their lives without the fear of people killing them because of their sexual orientation. Thats one of the things that makes me so proud about my connection to Israel…the fact that it is such a welcoming/ non judgemental society.
Its unfortunate that so many of you are disgusted by peoples happiness.
Re: comment number 41 by ben_David…..”In Israel, an ultra-secular, leftist minority is imposing its agenda on the majority. This minority has long controlled most of Israel’s economy, which is only gradually changing – and they still control Israel’s media, academia, and judiciary.”
HMMMM…… I believe Hitler had similar views of a dangerous minority in Germany who “controlled” its economy and infiltrated its academia. This tyrrany of the minority had to be dealt with. What ever happened to those degenerates who later claimed to be “victims” of the moral majority of Germany?
The moral majority is usually neither.
Minorities have always been the easy targets of a larger group who feel threatened. What are us heterosexuals (the majority) afraid of?
We need Gd because we need to believe in love – the positive power that will make our lives worth living. After birth it is a climb up a steep hill – then a sense we know what we are doing – then a confusion as we realize our thinking gets in the way of our being – then, hopefully we find a way to accept our demise and before we go… we give love to all. That is a good outcome for any one of us – giving – being with the rest of what surrounds us in this world. That is what Gd is – acceptance and radiating our life force and ove so we can all enjoy our time here – because it can be beautiful. So why take that away from anyone else? There is enough to go around for all of us. It is inside us. All of us.
What’s the fuss ? Oh that’s right, when so called straights hear the word ‘gay’ they immediately associate that with sexual acts and think that they’re really wanted by the ‘GAY MOB’. Take a look in the mirror, you’d be lucky if you want you ! Gay Parade, go figure ? What next would you like to bitch about ? Leave Gays, Lesbians, Transgenders alone and stop forcing people to do what is so un-natural, i.e. most people couldn’t think straight even if they tried.
Stop all Bigotry Now
I understand that there is no national propaganda against gay men and women. However, in Nazi Germany, the rhetoric began in meetings held by small groups of people. Although the beliefs discussed there may have been more pervasive, it was not natonal policy. But, slowly but surely, people listened, the rhetoric became popular, and was ultimately adopted by the media and state. Although this is unlikely to occur in Israel, the simple fact that so many people appear to latch on to one particular “sin” in the Torah and to it single it out so exclusively. Although the Torah may condemn male homosexual sex, and I agree that no one should be required to “tolerate it,” there is a difference between acceptance and tolerance. I think people on this board need to realize that this is an aspect of our world (it always has been), and that it is not going away. If people learn to accept the GLBT community as part of the Jewish community as a whole, Israel will surely benefit from that.
Ilan, on that point we agree, hatred will lead to our downfall. We learn that the Beit Hamigdash was destroyed because of hatred between Jews. It does not mention why they hated each other because it doesn’t matter one iota.
However, I think hatred and intolerance might fall into different camps. While you have no right to hate a person because of his or her sexuality, I don’t know that people have to “tolerate it” in the sense that they approve or condone. But there is indeed a way to disapprove much more graciously.
The act of male homosexual sex is a clearly a problem in Torah (although I’m not sure if it’s actually a problem for non jews). People do however need to refrain from demonizing people based on consensual sexual acts.
We also agree with the bad taste left in our mouths by many of the comments here. But also remember that Nazi rhetoric was employed by the state and media in national propaganda towards a national agenda. There is nothing even close to national anti-gay propaganda coming out of the state of Israel, nor any major jewish organization.
I believe that much of what I have said has been greatly misread.
I understand that one cannot use the actions of one and use it to accuse others, however, that still does not change much of what has been said here. People here appear to want to scapegoat GLBT members of the Jewish community, and in Israel, as the most immoral group around, and the potential cause to a very unlikely end to the state of Israel.
When I juxtapose what has been said here with the actions of Arab and Facist regimes, it is because words breed violence. When looking at the rise of Nazism, it began with words, which spread like wildfire, and which ultimately lead to the deaths of 6 million Jews and the deaths of millions of other minorities. Yes, Israel is very tolerant; it is a democracy. But, the intolerance that is present on this bored should be attacked, questioned, and criticized. And because these words and actions are coming from Jews, that makes it so much worse. When I say that we are turning our backs on our history, it is becuase if there are people who use the words stated on this board, we have yet to learn the lessons of the Holocaust. If we are what we profess to be, the hateful words seen above appear to prove otherwise. We are not as tolerant and loving, and that is why I argued that it makes these words and actions worse.
I am not diminishing the evil of the aforementioned regimes, but we cannot pretend as if having hatred within our midst is not a problem. It is this hatred which can truly lead to our downfall.
Ilan: Also, keep in mind that even under Jewish religious law, one does not have the right to simply kill or attack people willy nilly. The mental case who committed the stabbing violated not just Israeli civil law, but also Jewish religious law – only a Sanhedrin has the right to administer capital punishment and even then only under extremely severe conditions. The stabber was not acting under a religious imperative but as a result of motivations that exist only in the confines of his sick, delusional mind. No informed and truly religious person would ever condone his actions.
Ilan, While I fully appreciate the Love is all we need sentiment and wish that the world could be a utopia like that, lets not draw comparisons where they ought not be. There are fanatics, and there are fanatics. Verbal intolerance by individuals while distressing, is far difference from an intolerance that actively seeks to wipe a whole people off the face of the earth.
Jews can be accused of many things, but I don’t believe that turning our backs on history is one of them. If anything revere and remember our history TOO much.
By comparing the intolerance and fanaticism of Arab or Fascist regimes to a Israel because of a fucked-in-the-head wacko who was denounced and marginalized by society at large (a few commentors notwithstanding) it both diminishes the true evil and ignores the amazing tolerance that Israel IS actualizing.
I didn’t mean to equate the words or actions of a few to those of some of the greatest evil this world has seen. However, what saddens me so much is that by seeing the opinions of some on this message board, it appears that with a history that has been filled with much tragedy, little has been learned.
What happened in Israel was a Jew physically attacking other Jews. Regardless of how much people may disagree on this issue, the fact that so much intolerance is present on this site means that even with the events of the Holocaust, we have yet to learn that we should embrace everyone in our faith, and beyond, in our shared humanity. Yes, we have differences, but violence is never a solution, and intolerance simply breeds hate and ultimately violence and death.
Israel is a Jewish state, but it is also a democracy, and under this democracy, the rights of all Jews, including those of the GLBT community, are protected. The parade having taken place is a wonderful thing (I have marched in two such parades in California), but it was tarnished by a fanatic of the faith. We criticize fanaticism in other religions, and yet people appear to excuse it here. If the continued existence of Israel is at risk, it is because of such fanatics and not because of gay men and women who are simply professing love, tolerance, and peace.
We should learn from our history rather than turning our backs on it.
Ilan, I’m disgusted by many of the comments here as well, however, I have to disagree with your last statement. As you said yourself “gay men in Iran and Saudi Arabia are executed for being themselves, and when in Egypt they are imprisoned” Even in the West Bank and Gaza gays are often treated with absolute inhumanity.
However, While the stabbing was absolutely reprehensible, we have to remember that was one man. Many others cheered on the parade itself from the sidelines. A gay pride parade was had in Jerusalem, and World Pride will be here next year. think about even TRYING to have a gay pride parade in Nabuls, or Teheran. The IHA is hoping to turn Tel Aviv into a gay travel capital of the world. While certainly we Jews need to hold ourselves to a high standard, I think that saying that we are “much much worse” than the people under whom we suffered (a veritable who’s who list of evil in humanity) is either short sided or misleading.
“We” are not anything, Ilan, “we” are a broad range of people offering a collection of opinions. There are numerous posters in this discussion, some of whom attacked the violence and supported the right to a parade. Are they also worse or better than others? Our visitors and posters come from varying backgrounds, faiths, religious perspectives, social perspectives, countries and sexual orientations. This discussion reflects a larger debate that exists in our societies. The slant is Jewish because the majority of our guests are Jewish and this parade was held in a city considered holy by both Judaism and Christianity.
I am absolutley digusted by much of what I’m reading here. Considering the history of the Jewish people (which I am a part of), and the constant suffering we have experienced at the hands of a myriad of majority groups, one would hope that we would be the most tolerant group of people around. One would hope that Jews would understand the situation the GLBT community finds itself in throughout the world.
When gay men in Iran and Saudi Arabia are excuted for being themselves, and when in Egypt they are imprisoned (among many, many other examples), the events that unfolded in Jerusalem become truly disheartening. No matter how much people may disagree upon an issue, resorting to violence in an attempt to resolve the problem is not the answer. That Jews would resort to such violence simply places us at the same level as any group that we may criticize on any other day. Rather than attempting to be understanding of the situation, people of our faith behave in an animalistic and primitive manner.
One would hope that after slavery in ancient Egypt, after the exile in Babylon, after our continuous Diaspora, the Inquisition, the Chmilnitzky massacre, the Pogroms, the Holocause, and years of violence in Israel, we would have learned something by now.
The opinions placed here, and the events in Jerusalem prove that we are no better than the people in whose hands we suffered. In fact, we are much, much, worse.
I can’t believe some of the rubbish I’ve read on this website tonight. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions but no God I believe in discriminates like this. In England, the Union of Jewish Students has a poster which reads ‘How many Middle Eastern countries defend the rights of the Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual community, just one – Israel’. That fact has always made me proud to be a jew and I can’t believe some people here would hark back to outdated and mistranslated parts of the bible to condemn humans who feel differently when it comes to relationships. The jewish people are an inclusive people, always have been and always will be. Let’s not change that.
The whole thing was a bunch of scuttlebutt, I know cuz I was there and you best belive I mean poppy-cock, or was it cocky-pop?
chutzpah, i am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are being facetious when you imply that by taking it up the ass you now understand why gay men are gay. their viewpoint? surely you jest. also, someone pointed out to me that we should really stop trying to understand why gay people are gay. this need to find the origin implies a desire to eliminate homosexuality.
Just making the point that sometimes when you put yourself in someone else’s,errr…position…you can be more sympathetic to their viewpoint. You know, that old saying about not judging a man until you’ve walked a mile in his size 11 high heels. And even though I can now understand why a man might enjoy being gay, I am still saddened by the diminishing supply of heterosexual penis available to women.
Let no one say this site is not educational. Untznius, at times, yes–but you can always learn something…
Just making sure: is everyone aware that CHUTZPAH LIKES SEX??? Because just in case you hadn’t figured it out yet, she does. I know, she’s pretty subtle about it.
Chutzpah: I am very happy being heterosexual. Men do not need to engage in homosexual sex in order to have their prostate gland stimulated. I’m pretty sure there’s a section on that in Kosher Sex. Look it up. And hon? Make sure to use lots and lots of lube ok? You don’t want a cut and an infection down there. Have an awesome Simchat Torah.
Lisa, homosexuals used to turn my stomach also, but after experiencing anal sex for the for time this year, my opinion has changed 180 degrees. I am now awestruck by the miracle that the majority of men are NOT gay. Maybe you need to get some up the ass to see the light darling.
LOL, michael!
lisa, boy are you barking up the wrong tree!
Lisa: Homosexuality is a disease? I thought you were of the opinion that it’s a sin. Which is it now? Do what’s good for you and let everybody else alone.
I…I was being sarcastic…
I’m not a big fan of Mr. Christ, but I think his mother was friggin’ brilliant.
“Woman, you have been unfaithful to me!”
“No, no, Joseph! It was God, see! God did it!”
“Then why is the camel seller’s kaffiyeh on the ground in the bedroom?”
“IT WAS GOD!”
It’s such a good excuse it could really only be used once.
Actually, Joy, we should PRAY for them. Because what gays (and actually, everybody) need is G-d. G-d is the answer. Turning their lives over to G-d is the ONLY true, sure and lasting way out of the disease of homosexuality. I have known gays. I have worked with them. My heart is sick at the thought that they are on the slippery road to Hell. (No, I am not self righteous or perfect, just a human being who wants to follow G-d’s Torah and my Savior and Messiah–Jesus Christ.) I pray for them–for their deliverance. And I will pray for you too. For all of you. P.S.- Michael, glad to see you realize Jesus is the Messiah!:) I pray you all will come to know the Messiah of Israel– Yeshua HaMashiach. write me if you like. @above or–[email protected]
Shalom and laylah tov everyone.
Plus, you gotta admit, I look GREAT for my age.
Esther/Hitler you bastard! I knew that bunker suicide thing was a load of bull! And that explains all the brownshirts in my closet – it’s your nefarious Hitlerian influence! All this time I thought we were being silly with the teasing of those nice boys at… that other blog, but really we were held in the thrall of a transgendered 116 year-old genocidal maniac who used mind control tricks to make us say mean things to nice oleh yeshivah boys and their friends. Damn you Hitler, damn you to hell! You;ll pay for this, I swear by all the tofu in my fridge, you’ll pay for this!
Esther is Hitler?? Somebody tell the Mossad! I smell a highly-publicized execution…
“a vegetarian who loves children..”
That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard…you can’t be a vegetarian who loves children, because children are made of meat.
And besides, how can I have brown hair, when Hitler had brown hair? I must be Hitler.
Michael hearts US Christian Jew groupies! They’re so cute with their quaint notions of what Jews and Israelis are and aren’t! And when they bring wacky Hitler conspiracy theories into the mix…oooh! Well, I just can’t help myself!
Now, in the meantime, I’m going to go have a “gay” fling. Maybe Jesus will be so mad at the sins of the Children of Israel he’ll put off coming again for another few years.
Hitler was also a vegetarian and loved children. I am a vegetarian and have a fondness for children. Oh my god! I must be a Nazi! What else is new, I am wearing a brown shirt after all. As an old idiot friend of mine once said “seek hile!” heh heh heh.
Let’s hear for Lisa: sincerely narrow and conscienciously self-righteous! Miss Lisa, what do you propose should be done about the “deviants”? Should they be locked up, reprogrammed! Feel free to suggest solutions to what clearly is one of the biggest problems facing humanity.
Homoparades will dececrate the Holy city. G-d is not mocked! Warning: remember, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its homosexuality. Wake up people! I live in the US and was shocked to find out that there are “gay” parades in Israel. Israelis are too smart and beautiful to be involved in such evil. Do you not remember what happened to your people in Bible times when they strayed from G-d and the Torah? Hear O Israel, come back to G-d. Please, before He judges you. To be “gay” and Jewish? Crazy! That just doesn’t make sense to me. This American woman thinks that Israeli men are the hottest on the planet. And to think that some of them are homo.–that just turns my stomach. One last thing: how can you as a jew be “gay” when Hitler was “gay”? What are you, a traitor to your people?! Yes he was. Check out the book, “Pink Swastika” (RadioLiberty.com/btps.html Shalom to Israel! May G-d bring peace to Jerusalem(and morality back to His Holy city) [email protected]
Some of us have nothing agains gay parades and yet still qualify as ignorami.
btw that comment was not meant for Jews. It was meant towards anyone who is a hypocrite and an ignoramus.
Yes may God strike those evil, wicked homosexual sinners dead with his mighty hand.
What a Jewish thing to say. May you hypocrites eat those words one day. May you put them in your mouth, wash them aruond and taste them, then swallow hard. The disintegration of yourselves is close at hand should you continue to act like hypocrites and ignoramuses.
Hey, Batya, instead of dissembling, try again to answer the question, which if you need me to rephrase it, is: why don’t you not worry about things going on in Jerusalem that cause neither you nor anybody else any damage, and instead work on making yourself a better person instead of spending your time pointing fingers at other people’s sins?
Isn’t Jerusalem Israel’s capital and Israel’s largest city? Why exactly wouldn’t they want a parade there. If I’m into having a parade in Israel, my three top cities would be Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.
Then you go to Eilat for the real action. 😉
that was not my logic, at all…. I think u need to read it once more…dont pick out some words here some words here…. im not saying that they made me hate them. what im saying is, that there is no need for them to actively pursue this parade in jerusalem when they have a parade, a very big one, 40 minutes away. the only purpose is to prove a point. so you cant just say, they want it in Jerusalem to “just have fun” bec its obviously a much deeper reason than that…
Shalom…
i totally agree with michael …i could’nt say it better,the base of the world is {at least supposed to be}freedom.
what is the problem here exactly ?
everybody should do what ever make them happy as long they dont hurt someone or something..
peace out…
Your logic is offensive. Your argument is, “How can I help hating them? They made me hate them! They intruded on my happy little bubble where that placed all things I didn’t agree with out of sight, out of mind!” So some gay people marched down the street. This is incitement to hatred and violence? Or can you just not handle anything that conflicts with your particular worldview?
Basically, I have a libertarian view about all this. Gay rights parades do not damage me in any way. Nor do they damage you, Batya. Nor do they damage anyone. They’re a bunch of people marching in the street with rainbow flags. They’re not hurting you, they’re not breaking into your home, they’re not setting tire bonfires, they’re not making your children gay, they’re not performing mass orgies in the street…really, they’re just marching and shouting slogans. Have you ever had your purse stolen by a slogan? Has a rainbow flag ever kidnapped your children? No? Then I think you can live with a little gay pride parade. I’m sure the gay people aren’t the only marchers in Jerusalem who have ideas that you personally find offensive, but I’ll bet you tolerate everybody else.
Live and let live, Batya. Before criticizing the speck in your neighbor’s eye worry about the log in your own. All that stuff. If you’re so worried about what the man upstairs has to say about all this gayness in the street, well, why don’t you just worry about your own life and let God take care of it when the time comes.
Well, good to know we have an enlightened religion…
Male homosexuals get killed.
Lesbians get lashes.
I thought lesbianism is permitted.
and Michael — you say that the reason you support gay rights is because you dont hate your fellow man… Supporting, is different then not hating. Do I hate these people? NO, but I do think they have some chutzpah to flaunt their inner desires onto the world. Having desires is not against the Torah, acting on them are. We all agree that Homosexuality is against the torah… after all is says it straight out. How can someone say they believe in G-d and the Torah and then wave flags saying “hey g-d, look at me! I dont care about what you say, I Have desires! yay… im a sinner… woohoo…” No, we are not all tzadikim, but usually, when someone sins, they should be ashamed that they do, and not flaunt it. And this, my dear friend, is a Sin.
It is my God-given right to be sarcastic, just as I guess it’s Batya’s God-given right to beat the shift key like a red-headed stepchild.
Dont be all sarcastic, she asks a valid question…
Dammit, Laya, you went and destroyed Judaism. Again. Can’t you take up knitting instead?
I am a first-timer to this website, and at first glance I thought it was a good website…. then I took a closer look. This article is APPALLING and goes beyond everything Judaism stands for. WHY , LAYAH, DO U KEEP COMPARING FLAUNTING HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE STREETS OF THE HOLIEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO SOMEONE STABBING ONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS?? These are 2 SEPERATE ISSUES. This is not a comparison. They are both wrong. But they are two separate issues, and what one party does, is not what the other party does. Period.
Flaunting Sexuality in General is most certainly frowned upson by Judaism, but flaunting THIS!!! This is horrific.
The fact that they need to have a PARADE, is for what reason? JUST BECA– USE?? Do I need to have a Parade for every personal thing in my life? Even if there IS something that shows who I am — go ahead do whatever you want…. but flaunting it is of absolutely for no other reason besides drawing undeserved attention to oneself. Unacceptable. NOT ONLY THAT — but, These people, if they need to go to a Parade, can go to another country, and Unfortunately there is already one in Tel Aviv, why WHY do they NEEEEED to come to Jerusalem ?????? There are enough problems and more important political issues there. SO you keep bringing up the fact that you should not Hate — that may be true, but do, pray tell, explain to me, how they are not enticing people to hate them (Im not saying that you are allowed to hate, but im saying that the fact that they HAD to FIGHTTTT for a parade just 45 minutes away from the previous years ones, in Tel Aviv!?!? THAT ENTICEMENT -IS- DISRESPECTFUL TO ANYONE )
WHo the hell do these people think they are?
G-d has nothing to do with anyones being anything.
Blaming G-d for your own actions…unreal
Because Iron Sheik sucks, his stuff is so bad, it’s funny.
so what if were gay? God allows people to be gay so what if i like a little anal plugging every once in a while?
biochemical homosexuality (as occuring in nature, within HaShem’s fated realm) is NOT against Judaism.
Sodom and Gemmorah were filled with men who were attracted to women BUT lusted for men regardless. they were hetros who f***ed men for fun. it’s sick, and that’s why G-d destroys them in this allegory.
true homosexuality, as occuring as a result of a biochemical imbalance within the human brain, is not in Torah, or Judaism. if one man loves another (or one woman loves another) then so be it. be proud. march. parade about. w/e u want. if G-d made u that way, be that way, love yourself and love everyone else.
off topic: why is IRON SHEIK on the playlist here? catchy songs… but… they only teach anti-Israeli sentiment! wtf… please please email me i have much to say on that topic…
Fair enough and I’ll do my best to make my distinction clearer – I guess I’m not doing a good job at that.
I think that Steve in your case is pre-disposed genetically to be good at baseball-to be good at any sport.
I understand that you are trying to compare this type of case (baseball) to our case (liking a guy). Here is the distinction.
Steve’s being good at sports is completely internal. His muscles are naturally toned, his hand-eye coordination are balanced – its in his body. There aren’t two independant factors taking place.
On the other hand in our case there are two com-letely independant factors that are working simultaneously.
1. The internal urge we are talking about
2. Liking and appreciating certain features whether beuty, voice or hairyness to use your example. Although to like beautiful things is internal -it is independant of the internal nature of the urge we are discussing.
so even if you internally like and appreciate certain features you would like them irrespective of the urge – and teh proof is that you like them even before puberty.
Its only the association between the two independant things that I’m saying is not genetic but Im not saying that independantly they are not genetic of thier own right- they certainly might be.
Did that clarify what I mean?
Muffti basically didn’t understand the point of the story. So let Muffti tell his own story, and you can be confused and then Muffti can criticize you 🙂
Take Steve, who is genetically predisposed to have good hand eye coordination. He’s also predisposed to be tall and athletic. He runs very well, can keep track of small objects in the sky while running, can see objects that are hurled near him at high speeds and so forth.
Is Steve genetically predisposed to be good at baseball?
Well, it is rather unlikely that there is a baseball gene. And Steve may never come across anyh sports at all and lead a life where his talents are wasted, and where he doesnt’ date baseball women because he doesn’t know of them.
Nonetheless, it seems true to say that Steve has a genetic profile that, all things considered, would make him good at and cause him to enjoy baseball (at a certain age when his muscles mature etc.)
Muffti is claiming that our sexuality could be just like that. We may learn that we like men over women or whatever. But it may be that we are genetically predisposed to like features that one sex tends to exhibit and another doesn’t. One may not realize this unless they meet the relevant types of people (i.e. someone disposed to prefer hairy people who grows up on an island of all women may not come to know what would satisfy his preferences). Why are you so resistant to thinking that this could be the case?
Come on Mufti give it a break. Of course in steve’s story it ‘sounds’ like it was learned because it was. Why are making yourself unwilling to straight out say so?
Your question about him hearing of a boy who likes the water is a silly question because to like a boy or girl is also learned – isn’t that my whole point? Forget the case of a boy here is a case with steves girl herself. lets say that the girl who loves swimming was also taller than Steve and ever since seventh grade when a girl taller than him pushed him down he never liked tall girls- do you think he would would be attracted to this one? Probably not! Well if just the height is enough to turn him off certainly if its a boy whom since his youth he never saw himself with he won’t be atracted to- again nothing to do with genetics.
The point is that these factor are ALL irrelevant as foar as the urge itself goes.
Listen, I know that in general there are things that are both genetic and learned where both come into play. I haven’t said not.
-But not this specific thing or things like it- that’s all I’m saying.
In either case why are you bringing height as an example – there is no ‘learning’ or ‘training of the mind’ by height!
You are lumping into the word ‘environment’ both physical impedements such as lack as food and nourishment and a persons learned habits and likes but these are very distinct.
I’m explaining to you why you can’t be sexually predisposed to certain things. Its because if you were to specifically isolate out that in your mind – you can see that that urge is quite independant of beauty, of age, of swimming of all the outside reasons. All those other factors, Im trying to point out, are things that a person would like and find nice irrespective of that urge!
In fact if you think about it you will see that all of these outside factors a person appreciates and likes also before puberty when the urge does not even yet exist.
Muffti didn’t say it wasn’t learned. He said he didn’t know. Muffti has no idea what the relevant genetic basis for attraction is.
One thing Mmmmmuftti has been trying to stress is that it’s a bad model to think that every trait is either genetically goverened or environmentally goverened. Your height is partly genetically goverened but how tall you end up being depends greatly on environmental factors (i.e. smoking etc.) So why shouldn’t other traits be similar? Why shouldn’t you be sexually predisposed to certain traits but your actual orientation depend on environmental factors?
In Steve’s case, the story makes it sound like it was learned. But the learning may be based on a great deal of behind the scenes genetic factors. Muffti means, say in Steve’s story, he heard of a boy that loves the water. would he be instantly attracted? Both the boy and the girl would have the same abstract feature of loving the water…if not, then apparently all the training isn’t sufficient for attraction just by common love of water.
200 posts! Amazing. I actually had a cool link to contribute but I lost it. Alls I wanna say is that gay bashing is bad!
I know what you are saying – thats why we are going to get to the bottom of this. I notice you did not address whether steve’s attraction is genetic or not.
The story of steve is supposed to show that his attraction to this girl who loves the water is not genetic but learned- self trained over the 6 years he was into swimming.
Do you agree that it is learned?- if not why not?
By ‘genetic’ Muffti having a causal origins in genes, rather than from the environment. We know with quantitative factors there are genetic and environmental causes: so you are genetically determined to be tall or short, but environmental processes (smoking, lack of nutrition) may interfere.
Muffti was thinking the very same story might be true of homosexuality: you may be genetically slated to prefer manly features. If you never meet a man, you won’t be likely to exhibit homosexual features.
In your story, things are a bit underdetermined. If he hadn’t started to get into swimming, he may well never have been attracted to the girl. What you need to tell Muffti is what you take to be the relevant genetic factor. (and, we should remember, this is all in the realm of bullshit genetics; we clearly don’t really know what the real story is on these things so its all being done using hypothetical examples). So, Muffti agrees that Steve probably is feeling attraction partly because the girl’s love of the water fits nicel with his love of water, and he probably wouldn’t be attracted otherwise.
But Muffti sin’t sure what this is supposed to show.
quote: “In the lifeguard case you mention, it looks like it is genetics that is determining your greater probability of hooking up with a lifeguard over non-water related occupations.”
-Apparently I don’t understand your idea of genetics.
Just to get past this answer the following question:
Say steve at age 16 wanted to go to camp and found out that they need lifeguards so, even though he didn’t really care for the water before, he took the course became a lifeguard and really enjoys it. He is now 22, he swims always and he is also now looking for someone who loves the water. When he hears of a girl who loves the water he is immediately attracted.
Do you think that steve, had he not gotten into swimming from age 16, would be immediately attracted?
Maybe you can explain in this context what you mean by ‘genetic.’
Well, ok, Muffti seems to get your picture now, We can agree that it is learned that lifeguards satisfy the need. But what is the cause of their liking lifeguards over say ditch diggers? The cause looks to be genetic. So this is all along why Muffti was arguing that it isn’t knowledge but genetic predisposition that matters in this case.
We’d say the same thing if we found out that there was a genetic preference for certain pheremones over others. If guys were born liking certain pheremones emitted by other guys, we would expect higher tendencies of homosexuality. So you would ‘learn’ what satisfies you, but it would be entirely genetic what actually does satisfy you. That’s kind of Muffti’s point: knowledge doesn’t really matter; it is what propels you to action that does. In the lifeguard case you mention, it looks like it is genetics that is determining your greater probability of hooking up with a lifeguard over non-water related occupations.
Maybe what you say here is a good place for Muffti to illustrate what he’s not getting. You say:
Muffti has no idea what you are talking about here. Muffti isn’t implying anything per se about whether a person can know they have an inclination. One might have certain inclinations one knows about that push him around in ways he doesn’t understand until he can reflect back on what he does. People may have inclinations to date women who are just like their mother in relevant respects and not notice it til they date a few women and reflect on thier commonalities. So Muffti didn’t meant o imply any such thing as you are suggesting.
then, you say “Second of all, you and I know that there is no pleasure specifically because its a guy- its patently absurd.”
Muffti doesn’t see the absurdity at all. There can be all sorts of good reasons to prefer a guy over a girl. This isn’t to say that one can’t be fooled, or one can’t devise some scenario where a guy is girl enough to fool the preference mechanism. But why shouldn’t some people prefer all the features that are guy like in arousal?
While posting the last post you posted yours.
Here are the responses:
“certain suggests that when it comes to beauty, there is a genetic preference. This preference, furthermore, has obvious effects on one’s desires”
–in general people love calm water and well-performed music. Sure that is innate but that has nothing to do with the urge we are discussing. Certainly when looking for a mate it will influence it just like a person who appreciates music might be drawn to someone with a good voice or somebody who loves swimming would be more attracted to someone ones he hear that they were a lifeguard. Now that is distinct from the urge we are talking about and I’m sure you would agree that if his desires are aroused by a lifeguard that association is learned. So too by beauty.
“By the way, the reason we allow gays to have parades and not child molesters should be pretty obvious”
–my point is just that whatever across the board statistics you bring – I am sure that there are just as across the board statistics for child molesters- its just that they are not pushing it as an agenda which is why you and others don’t know it.
point 2 is just that the only people at risk are those who always think about what they shouldn’t think about. Someone who is always thinking about his urge should not hang around guys and dorm with them lest he over time become aroused by them. In fact its better that a person in general try not to always think about his urge whether with guys or girls over time that will cause him trouble.
“but it doesn’t follow that they aren’t trying to suck on a breast. If we dress up a guy as a woman and have him come on to you and he turns you on, we don’t conclude that you get turned on by both men and women but that you get turned on by women and sometimes can’t tell the difference.”
-I disagree it means that there is nothing innate in the body of a woman that it coming to you through the air like radiowaves. But the arousal by the woman is learnt over time and yes in this case you didn’t know the difference and of course weren’t aroused.
“Helen Keller lacked many senses and seemed to have desires.”
-I don’t know your point. Who said not.
“As for (b) …he can’t see why one couldn’t have preferences for male over feamale features or vice versa.”
–answered above.
“One last point…”
-not sure what you are saying but I believe it was answered in my last post.
Muffti wrote: Say that some males had more sensitivity inside their ass, while others did not.
Heh. Muffti said “inside.” Heh, heh, heh.
Just to clarify one of my points.
When you mentioned “The main point seems to be that you have urges that can be gratified in only a range of ways and not others.”
you are basically saying:
‘ok they can’t know ahead of time that they like a guy but maybe it is inborn in that he gets more pleasure from a guy- once they chance on trying it they will know’
-if that’s what you meant to say then you are comparing this to eating chocolate cake where a person wouldn’t know that the cake tastes good until he tries it but once he tries it he knows it tastes good.
The problem is that its not an accurate comparison. First of all, it would imply that before someone could know that he has such an inclination he would first have to do the act and you know I will ask you why is he doing it when he doesn’t yet know that it what he likes? -there must have been some outside influence that was picked up somewhere.
Second of all, you and I know that there is no pleasure specifically because its a guy- its patently absurd.
-very different than the cake where it is innate in the taste buds to enjoy sugar.
Yeah, that helped clarify a little bit. Let muffti see:
First, the numbers were made up in order to illustrate a point. (sorry if it was misleading) And the point was supposed to be that we can get evidence about the genetic basis of homosexuality by looking at how widely patterns of homosexual behaviour vary across dissimilar populations. Given a fairly stable number, there is evidence for genetic underpinning. What exactly those numbers are, Muffti doesn’t know and isn’t sure there are reliable statistics that exist, but he thinks that that is what we should be looking for. No?
As for the simple logic, Muffti is disputing just that logic. In fact, there is an interesting case that might at least clarify the dispute. Studies of beauty cross culturally have yielded interesting universals that were somewhat unexpected. For example, (this one isn’t so surprising), there is a stable cross-cultural preference for symmetry. there is also a stable cross-cultural preference for a certain ratios between women’s bust, waist and hips (though whether the preferene is for heavy or light seems to be much less stable cross culturally, so long as the ratio is maintained). Clearly, it is implausible that this is learned: what are the probabilities that distinct populations will randomly come to appreciate certain ratios (unless, of course, there is some other underpinning but that’s an argument for another time). This isn’t conclusive proof, but it certain suggests that when it comes to beauty, there is a genetic preference. This preference, furthermore, has obvious effects on one’s desires (i.e. what they prefer to look at, who they prefer as mates, though obvious other factors will matter as well to these things). Does that count as an unlearned preference? (andnotice, of course, that the beauty in question is visibly sensible).
By the way, the reason we allow gays to have parades and not child molesters should be pretty obvious, given the victimless (ignoring, for the moment Ben David’s concerns) nature of the first and the victimizing nature of the second.
As for your point 2, Muffti has no clue what you are talking about. Please explain (perhaps using an illustrative example) how your view explains homsexuality or heterosexuality.
As for point (3), Muffti’s point was that children will suck on anything tha tyou give them, but it doesn’t follow that they aren’t trying to suck on a breast. If we dress up a guy as a woman and have him come on to you and he turns you on, we don’t conclude that you get turned on by both men and women but that you get turned on by women and sometimes can’t tell the difference.
You also say:
Well, sure, Muffti supposes, but there might be all sorts of factors invovled in this that go beyond the purely sexual. Muffti, for instance, has a thing for nice breasts (which isn’t that wierd he supposes) and how they look. He also likes female voices. He also has a preference not to feel hair against his chest when his torso is in contact with another torso. Presumably, gay men have alternative preferences. These things are dependant on whether or not it is a guy or a girl (since guys dont’ have breasts, etc.)
As for the main simple logic, Muffti has been trying his best to figure out what it is. w/r/t (a), Muffti doesn’t think that the objects of desire are only known through site; blind people have objects of desire. Helen Keller lacked many senses and seemed to have desires. As for (b) he’s not really sure what you are talking about. And he still doesn’t know why it doesn’t make sense to call it genetic: insofar as preferences can be genetic, he can’t see why one couldn’t have preferences for male over feamale features or vice versa.
One last point (maybe he’s made this already. he’s sorta lost track). Muffti wants to give a plausible scenario where homosexuality would have a genetic underpinning despite not being straightforwardly genetic. Say that some males had more sensitivity inside their ass, while others did not. Would it be that surprising if these people ended up being more likely to prefer gay sex to straight sex? Not really. Clearly this isn’t what causes homosexuality, but it would be a case where homosexuality was caused (in men) by something genetic even if the preference for men wasn’t decidedly genetic. Muffti isn’t sure that this isn’t actually teh case: that sexual preference is dictated by some concatenation of genetic features. This respects your stricture, that you aren’t born knowing what will satisfy your needs for pleasure (since these people may learn later that men are ideally placed to please them through anal sex) but is clearly a case where the prime cause of homosexuality isn’t straightforwardly learned in the way you are thinking. So even if not genetic in the relevant sense, nothing forces the ‘learning’ theory you are advocating.
And, yes, he does want to know about prevalence because it matters ot hte plausibility of the ‘learned’ story.
(cut off again)
Then the fact is that SUCH A PERSON
a. if they hang around kids all day will possibly be a molester
b. if they hang around women and they will possibly do adultery
c. if they hang with men they will possibly get into it with them
Of course, if the other person also agrees it will only be reinforced. Now the molester is one-sided but in the case of a guy who hits up a ‘friendship’ its all the more reinforced.
Don’t forget the point that it applies to people who think about their internal desire and don’t try to divert their attention away at all
– they are the risk factors.
So the idea is to control thought patterns.
3. “but do it semi unconsciously. Does that make it any less genetic …Why is knowledge the relevant factor? The main point seems to be that you have urges that can be gratified in only a range of ways and not others. Whether or not you know what will gratify them doesn’t seem to matter. But maybe you can say a bit more why it does.”
–No there is no semi-concious by the baby- if you were to give the baby a bottle with milk from day one it would be the same to the baby as the mother’s breast.
Try it.
“urges that can be gratified in only a range of ways and not others.”
-Listen buddy, what exactly is the female guy of this act doing for the male? Is there something in the body that is providing pleasure? Do you think the actual pleasure is dependant on if its a guy girl or any object? You are a smart guy- Of course not.
Its all in the mind.
Why do you ignore the main simple logic. Even if I were to have no reason I know of one thing you could know and take to the bank:
Something like this where
a. the claimed object of desire is only known through sight and
b. nothing from the body of the first person actually gives any sensory pleasure to the other person.
– simply makes no sense to think is genetic.
You want to ask ‘how do you explain its prevalence?- OK fair question we can think about it – its another question but that doesn’t contradict the fact that it is not genetic.
In either case I hope that I have clarified that question above.
(my post was cut off- here is the rest)
Then the fact is that SUCH A PERSON
Mufti,
1. Out of curiosity where do you get your 10-15% statistic? I don’t believe that for a second.
I know countless people. I don’t know ANYONE in my extended family or friends who has this ‘tendency.’
There are, I am sure, more adulterers and more child molesters in ANY (accross the board) given society than homosexuals- the only difference is that you don’t have a child molester parade or a push to have it recognized.
Please, some ‘real’ statistics- because if my casual experience is any indication those numbers are wrong.
2. My story is not only plausible but it is the reason, I am sure.
quote: “Otherwise, if we want straight kids, we should immediately pull boys out of all male boarding schools since your theory predicts that they will all be gay.”
-not at all. My ‘theory’ does not predict that.
If a person ‘thinks’ about this desire a lot – which is common in today’s society- Its all around you- just take a look at some of the recent posts.
Then the fact is that SUCH A PERSON
OK,
BD – Fair enough. However, Muffti is curious: is homosexuality a sin between man and man or between man and god? And where is the evidence that the Torah forbids homosexuality on account of ‘selfish exploitation?’
JS:
First, let Muffti appologize about the links that don’t work and try again. Muffti isn’t sure what went wrong. Actually, Muffti just tried them and they seemed to work so he doesn’t really know what to do. Muffti’s point wasn’t that babies genetically recognize their mother’s voice; they are born with that capacity and then learn quickly to identify that particular voice as the voice of their mother. This isn’t to say that the baby represents the causal origin of the voice as ‘mother’ (in the sense that the baby doesn’t realize that she gave birth to him). But babies do ijmmeadiately try to establish a connection between a vocal type and the person who gave birth to them. This is partly why Muffti wanted to avoid talking about what babies ‘know’ so much as identify what instincts they are genetically predisposed to follow. One of those instincts is to identify their mother, using vocal patterns.
In any case, why is it so important to figure out what the baby knows as opposed to what it is genetically predisposed to do? If homosexuality is genetic, in the relevant sense, then it would pose a constraint on behaviour: seeking out the same sex. Say they don’t ‘know’ that they are doing this, but do it semi unconsciously. Does that make it any less genetic so long as they (unconsciously) discriminate between sexual partners? Why is knowledge the relevant factor? The main point seems to be that you have urges that can be gratified in only a range of ways and not others. Whether or not yo know what will gratify them doesn’t seem to matter. But maybe you can say a bit more why it does.
You say:
You explain this by association. But the interesting point comes up where you see commonalities of percentages across environments. If you noticed that consistently 10-15% or any given population liked having sex with trees, despite very different environments, you would start to think that there was a genetic disposition to tree attraction. This, of course, could turn otu to be false if htere was a very compelling story about how people could somehow acquire this disposition. But it would be very bizzare. Similarly, if every society had 10-15% of its population suffer from heart attacks, despite widely different diets and excersize regimens, you would start to wonder whether or not genetic distributions didn’t dictate a percentage of your populace were disposed to heart attacks more readily than others. Similarly, Muffti claims, with homosexuality: if there is an underlying commonality in percentage of persons who are homosexual across very different cultures (i.e. different tolerance levels, different sexual mores, different patterns of male-female habitation) you woudl start to think that there must be something that is anchoring that commonality. Muffti isn’t sure just how similar the levels are, but it looks to him to be a vital source of data.
As for your learning story, Muffti said specifically that he wanted a plausible learning story. Yours is just radical conjecture that isn’t very plausible at all. Otherwise, if we want straight kids, we should immeadiately pull boys out of all male boarding schools since your theory predicts that they will all be gay. While doubtlessly homosexual behaviour is higher at such places (likely out of ease of opportunity) the facts don’t seem to be that such people graduate and lack interest in women until they immerse themselves around lots of females.
“My gratitude for interesting responses, Joe Schmo. Let’s have a look. Babies have desires invovling sucking and they know that these can only be satisfied by external objects.”
–the baby doesn’t know anything. Even when the eyes are still closed the baby involuntarily sucks at the air.
In either case how can you compare knowing that and trying to get something to satisfy an internal desire with knowing ‘what’ will satisfy it?
i. your link here didn’t work.
ii. your link here didn’t work either.
-In either case are you implying that a baby ‘genetically’ recognizes their mother’s voice? You can’t be serious.
If the mother had a voice-change surgery then the baby wouldn’t recognize it?!
Isn’t it obvious to you that even if a baby does recognize a mothers voice from the womb (for which link didn’t work) its because it heard it for 9 months?!
Regarding stability across environments
-listen:
in every society you have a percentage child molesters
In every society you have a percentage who do stuff with animals
In every society you have a percentage adulterers
…That is simply because there is an internal desire and if a person hangs around any class of people and lets the mind wander eventually an association will build… and if you have friends who have that association and you hang around them eventually you might also build that association.
…and all that is learned. It is a mistake to connect ‘stability across environments’ with nature.
quote: “and the ‘learned side’ has no plausible story as to how it was ‘learned’. It clearly isn’t taught…”
–thats not true. My last paragraph explains how its taught.
if you were to let an individual grow up alone in a forest the person might end up being arroused by a tree.
If you have guys who hang out with each other and not girls. If they hang out long enough and if their internal desire is strong and they don’t stop their minds from wandering and they talk about it to each other because they have no compunctions they will eventually become aroused at the thought of the other. It is self-taught over time.
In fact that is the nature of this desire. The more you think about the desire in relation to an object the more and quicker the thought of that object arouses you.
Now you have the theory and in fact the truth as I see it about this whole topic.
Muffti –
I don’t have much time this evening, so this will be brief (promises, promises…).
The Torah view diverges strongly from the post-Enlightenment Western worldview in many areas, but especially in these two:
While the West views morality as a temporal social contract between humans, Jewish morality is primarily a covenant between heaven and earth. I am fundamentally bound up with others through G-d’s oneness, and even exploitation by mutual agreement is exploitation – taking, rather than giving – and therefore morally deficient. My moral obligations to my fellow are an expression of transcendent ideas, not practical human considerations.
It follows that there is no “private life” in which I am relieved of my moral obligation to build myself into a giver – I am at all times living a relationship with G-d.
As Rabbi Soleveitchek put it – other people’s material needs are my spiritual needs.
Another big difference: the Western world starts with the notion that man is born free, and “morality” is a necessary imposition so we can all get along – call it the Stop Sign moral approach. The goal is to fulfill my own desires to the maximum, while surrendering the minimum of my “natural rights”.
Judaism starts not with rights, but with obligations. I am born into a relationship with the Creator. Morality – and spirituality – are bound up with the task of building myself into a giver. The goal is not independence, but transcendent bonding.
Homosexuality – like many other relationships and actions that the West would permit, but the Torah forbids – tends towards selfish exploitation, and stresses externalized material lust over deep loving relationships. That is why the Torah forbids them.
It is possible to make a cogent moral argument based on purely secular values, but that will have to wait for another evening.
For Jewlicious Jews attempting to be both hip and true to Torah, this post offers more than enough to chew on.
Ben David,
That is exactly what Muffti means. Insofar as it is private behaviour it is not straightforwardly immoral. Notice that what you criticize is the promiscuity and substance abuse and so forth. You don’t criticize the anal sex or fisting or oral sex because those aren’t socially harmful. Muffti takes it for instance that quiet gay men who don’t abuse drugs and settle into happy lives with partners (of which there are some. Muffti has known some gay men like this for example and even on your theory you would expect outlyers from the norm you’ve claimed to identify) are not acting immorally (religious dogma aside) or causing social harm. So short of pointing to Leviticus, its hard to see what homosexuality as far as same sex sex goes causes by way of harm to others.
My gratitude for interesting responses, Joe Schmo. Let’s have a look. Babies have desires invovling sucking and they know that these can only be satisfied by external objects. Muffti still doens’t see why this isn’t a counter example to your principle.
In any case, we are quickly running up here against he so called ‘generality problem’ in the philosophy of biology. Take a loveable little frog. They seem to want to eat flies and snap their tongue out at flies. So one conclused the frog ‘wants’ to eat a fly and therefore lashes his tongue out at them.
However, throw a little black pebble at the right speed a frog’s way, and most times they will lash out at it as well. So can’t we say that a frog really just wants to lash out at black things flying and his desire is totally non-fly dependant? There is no straightforward answer to this question and Muffti thinks the same holds here; one would like to say that babies want to suck on their mother’s breasts for milk and are easily decieved and so will suck anything. But that’s not clearly the case as you point out. So it’s awfully difficult to characterize what a baby wants and what a baby knows. So Muffti will abandon the example. However, the problem wil rear it’s ugly head again soon.
The truth is, Muffti is a little uncomfortable framing this in terms of knowledge, because it doesn’t seem to be knowledge that matters here but instinctual drives. And because babies don’t do much and can’t talk, it’s difficult to know what they know or what their actions are striving for, if anything. However, let Muffti try to find some more plausible examples (though here is where the generality problem will come up again.)
i. Babies seem to have expectations regarding what sorts of things are objects and what sorts of things aren’t. This comes from research by Spelke and associates (See here for a brief overview) regarding babies and objects protrayed on a screen. This research points to a rather rich cognitive architecture babies have regarding the nature of objects that cannot plausibly be learned. This doesn’t really give muffti what he wants since it is belief oriented but not desire oriented, but the point is that babies ‘know’ or at least have assumptions they take to be knowledge about the nature of objects. It would be surprising if they didn’t use this sort of knowledge when trying to satisfy desires.
ii. Babies seem to recognize their mother’s voice very quickly (if not instantly) and conform their behaviour around this knowledge. (See here for evidence that they recognize it even earlier than birth. This again doesn’t point to desire satisfaction directly, but gives indirect evidence of a particular object that the baby is en rapport with.
Now, you can always reinterpret these things or claim they are somehow cases of learning since the evidence is always indirect. That’s the nature of studying little dudes who can’t tell you what is on their minds and how they came across it.
Anyhow, it doesn’t really matter in a way: presumably the sexual desire in a youngster starts around puberty by whcih point the baby will have had plenty of time to learn what sorts of objectst here are out there and start fitting them to his or her desires. So Muffti isn’t sure what, even if his evidence is compelling, it would help show.
Anyhow, as to your point about stability across environments, Muffti was clearly not being careful enough. Obviously you expect that in local areas you’ll have spikes (such as san francisco) of openly gay peopel that you won’t see in other places. And if a society started systematically killing anyone who was openly gay, you’d expect a quick drop in numbers. The point was that across the board, averaged out across larger but disconnected cultures and populations, you have seen fairly stable rates; few societies have had huge numbers of gay people and to our knowledge, very few have had none. Of course, this claim is also hard to substantiate since societies haven’t had the same intense focus on homosexuality as a category until fairly recent years (Foucault’s work, whatever else its merits or demerits, is fairly interesting on this topic.) In fact, it’s amazing that it persists in religious circles at all.
Muffti should say that the real evidence we need is lacking is in the actual theories. We banter a fair bit but no side as of yet has a really plausible story: the genetic side doesn’t have a plausible story (in the sense of isolatable genetic patterns that we can use to test for later phenotype and behaviour) and the ‘learned side’ has no plausible story as to how it was ‘learned’. It clearly isn’t taught: if so it woudl be amazing that there are any gay people at all since very few children are taught the merits of same sex love and sexual attraction. As of yet, the story we have from Ben David focusses on lack of identification with your gender which, to his credit, is at least a theory we can try to use in testing.
Ben-David are you kidding me?
you say that Pinchas “received ABSOLUTELY NO SANCTION”?? because Moses remeained mum when confronted by Pinchus?
I apologize but you are misinterpreting what happened.
Pinchas came to Moses when Moses was frozen during the ordeal (the same rabbis you misquote say that he was mum because he forgot at that moment what to do – they give us a reason that he forgot- it was a minor punishment for something) -so Pinchus came and said do you see what is happening? Didn’t you teach us that the zealous should strike? Moses then was reminded and he told Pinchus “let the bearer of the letter read its contents” ie you are right do it and save Israel.
Don’t you see that Pinchus stopped the plague that began at that time- and he was granted the covenent of peace forever?
Any Rabbi will dismiss it out of hand?! I don’t know who your Rabbi is but here is the Rambam:
יב,ד כל הבועל גויה, בין דרך ×—×ª× ×•×ª בין דרך ×–× ×•×ª–×× ×‘×¢×œ×” בפרהסיה, ×•×”×•× ×©×™×‘×¢×•×œ ×œ×¢×™× ×™ עשרה מישר×ל ×ו יתר–×× ×¤×’×¢×• בו ×§× ×ין והרגוהו, הרי ×לו משובחין וזריזין; ודבר ×–×” הלכה למשה ×ž×¡×™× ×™×™ הו×, ור××™×” לדבר ×–×” מעשה ×¤×™× ×—×¡ בזמרי.
now if you want more quotes from other sources like the Torah or Talmud -ask. I am holding back here since I don’t want to offend your sensibilities with the truth too much, since I see you are feeling uncomfortable, unless you really want it.
Here is one Rabbi on the web:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/haaros/pinchus.html
Bottom line: Pinchus is a hero and he saved countless lives – not the opposite.
So too I believe is the case with what is happening in Israel.
Mufti,
a. Babies have an internal desire to suck PERIOD.
Put anything near a babies mouth and they will suck- try it!
– oh yes I see you wrote that. Correct its an internal desire and in the case of a baby I don’t even know if it learns asscociation because they always suck anything. If at some further point (when they are close to the point of holding a bottle) they actually do recognize the mother’s breast then at that point they have already learnt that association.
In fact you showed a good example to back me up because anyone who has a baby knows that the baby will suck anything.
Here is the challenge:
Find me one thing that is inborn and dependant on an outside object without being learnt.
b. True thats all it proves.
c. You think that it is common accross all environments? Come on. Are there more in San Francisco or in Wyoming?
Are there more in religious circles or in Atheist circles?
I don’t believe its equally pervasive for a second.
So my point and premise still stand – it has to be learnt.
What do you mean by “socially harmful”?
Can I drink myself to brain death as long as I don’t get in a car and run over some innocent person – what’s the phrase, oh yes: in the privacy of my own home?
Is that OK – like in Europe where they “respect” drug adddicts’ uh, lifestyle choices, but are careful to hand out clean needles so there is no “social harm” as people destroy themselves?
Is that what you mean – no collateral damage, so go ahead and kill yourself?
Muffti isn’t particularly pro-gay or anti-gay to be honest. He’s open to the possibility that it is correlated with trauma, though he still finds it somewhat unlikely that it isn’t basically a genetic matter, though clearly not a ‘strictly’ genetic matter.
Anyhow, the sloppy argumentation wasn’t really Muffti’s: he was trying to say that given that you accept the premises of the pro-gay argument, they are not guilty of inconsistency: normalcy is compatible with tragedy since normalcy is about the nature of homosexuality while tragedy is about the nature of how gays are treated.
The point is well taken, however: more is clearly required to go from normalcy to acceptable. Muffti basically agrees (as he meant to say before hand) that the actual basis of homosexuality seems totally irrelevant to moral and clinical evaluation. On the clinical end, Muffti appreciates the gravity of the correlations you mention. He thinks the connections are not yet well enough understood to be very clear on what is going on and he rejects your contention that homosexuality has really gained the wide spread acceptance you claim. Especially not in the US and he is interested in whether or not there are other explanations of the factors you bring up (tendency to depression, promiscuity etc.) On the moral end, Muffti still doesn’t understand what the problem is and why homosexuality has any business being grouped with socially harmful things like alcoholism. where is the social harm brought on by homosexuality? Or is there some other dimension of ethical evaluation that you are using?
Schmo –
You are misrepresenting the mainstream Jewish opinion, and denigrating Judaism in the process.
The point of the Pinchas story is that he received ABSOLUTELY NO SANCTION for his zealotry from Moses or Aaron. This is made clear in the Midrashic interpretation, in which he specifically confronts them, and they remain mum.
He also accepted upon himself the possibility that he would be killed. So too, the unbalanced fellow who stabbed the gay marchers should not be spared the full measure of the law. This summer, we all happen to be very well-informed here in Israel about civil disobedience and the price that one must be willing to pay for it.
In addition, the overwhemlming trend of our tradition is to SEVERELY LIMIT capital punishment, even by the Sanhedrin, which is commanded to search for loopholes.
The idea that stabbing another person is somehow equal to stealing back a bicycle – are you crazy? I think you know as well as I that any Rav would dismiss that train of thought out of hand.
Muffti:
The people desperate to prove that gayness is largely, unavoidably, irreparably determined by genetics are the pro-gay activists. They do this specifically to achieve two aims:
– to neutralize moral judgement of homosexual behavior by downplaying the choice/persona aspect of gay identity development.
– to sloppily assert that everything that occurs in nature is “normal” and acceptable (again, slipping the bonds of moral judgement).
They are the ones who have misrepresented the inconclusive evidence to make it conclusive.
You yourself fall victim to this sloppy thinking when you write:
The normalcy claim is a claim about the consistent presence of homosexuality. It’s normal in the sense of not maladjusted.
– – – – – – – – –
How does the “presence of homosexuality” – the famous Penguins Do It theory – prove that this is “not a maladjustment” for humans, at least by the light of our society’s values?
It doesn’t. Any more than the genetically caused “presence” of autistics and schizophrenics proves that THESE poor souls are not “maladjusted”.
Do you see that point?
This is the sloppy thinking that – together with a lot of media stardust – has led you to a pro-gay opinion.
It starts with a distortion of the actual science, and ends with a logical non-sequitir.
The cause of the behavior is not an issue for The Rest of Us. We do not differentiate between genetically caused alchoholism, for example, and alchoholism that results from environmental factors – we have changed neither our DWI laws nor the social stigma of drunkeness based on new knowledge of a genetic factor.
The “burden of proof” lies with the pro-gay activists, to explain why homosexuality is different from any other trait/behavior, why it is exempted from moral evaluation. (of course, they also have to explain their misuse of science).
I have brought up the science to show:
a) they are dissembling
b) gayness is not strictly genetic, as they claim.
I have no problem with the assertion that gay identity formation results from a combination of inborn temperament and environment.
Kindly explain why homosexuality is then exempt from the same moral evaluation we apply to every other human personality trait and behavior – most of which could also be described as combinations of temperament and environment.
You write:
the idea is that it is tragic to be gay in our society since gay people lack certain advantages that straight people have.
– – – – – – – – – – –
Yet the behavior chalked up to “tragic” prejudice has not lessened as gays have increasing won acceptance.
The only social “barrier” that remains is the legal sanction of marriage, and that is hardly much of a barrier given the widespread acceptance of hetero cohabitation outside wedlock. The legal system constructed to deal with straight unmarried couples would easily give the minority of gays who are in long-term relationships 99 percent of the rights of a married couple.
And the data from Europe clearly indicates that those inclined to marriage is a tiny minority of the gay community.
So: the pathological behavior – and the manipulative self-dramatization of gay victimhood – persist long after the “tragedy” of prejudice has disappeared.
In many cities on the coasts, I probably would suffer more overt aggression as a beanie-wearing Orthodox Jew than a gay couple walking hand-in-hand.
It is no longer plausible to blame the meth-and-viagara powered sex marathon of today’s twenty-something gay man on the general society’s prejudice. Yet the NY Times recently wrote up the vexing rise of just such behavior – among young men who have never experienced appreciable overt prejudice.
What is the cause of such behavior in a society wide open to gays?
Schmo, your penchant for preferring conceptual over empirical arguments is interesting. Allow Muffti to register three complaints, none of which will be decisive.
First point: the premise is false, unless Muffti is just misunderstanding. Hungry babies, for example, have instincts to suck on their mother’s breast to satisfy their hunger. This isn’t a learned reaction; all babies have it and they have it immeadiately. And hunger is clearly an internal desire satisfied by a ‘class of items’. (If we want to get nitpicky, we can wonder whether or not the baby just wants to suck on a breast and then learns that that will assuage it’s hunger. Presumably, then, Muffti will say that the desire to suck on a breast is internal and satisfied by an external object.)
b) The Pavlov case shows that one CAN associate external objects with internal feelings by training. It doesn’t do anything to show that ALL objects of desire are learnt rather than inborn.
c) If all these things were learnt, then it would be a real shock that we see such commonalities across communities. It would be shocking that levels of homosexuality, etc. didn’t vary wildly across communities. Typically, evidence that something is learned or environmentally given leads to the prediction that different learning environments will yield different results. Evidence that something is genetic is typically linked with commonalities despite wildly differing environments. The evidence seems to come down squarely on some genetic anchoring.
Mufti and Ben-David,
I’ve written about this before but I’ll do it again.
Mufti, you are asking Ben-David how he knows and can ‘prove’ that there is no genetic factor in being a homosexual. You admit that he shows good statistics to indicate that environment is some if even the main influence – but, you ask, maybe its a combination of both at least to some extent.
Im going to explain to you why it is impossible for it to be genetic.
I am not going to use statistics – even though I know they are accurate. Im just going to use simple logic.
I believe the following premise to be true:
The knowledge that some specific item or class of items, that is outside of your body, will satisfy an internal desire cannot be genetic but must be learnt(especially if the knowledge comes through the sense of sight).
The is obvious if you think about it a little and it was confirmed by the Pavlov’s dogs experiment- where the dogs associated a sound to the internal desire of eating. If the sight of chocolate cake, for example, makes you hungry – that is a learnt association between hunger and cake.
Therefore the internal desire is inborn and comes at puberty- but who and what arouses the internal desire is learnt. This applies even to normal guys who like girls and vice versa. It is ALL learnt- it has to be.
ck,
Yes and no.
Yes – only the Sanhedrin could administer capital punishment and yes it was very rare.
But no in that it is assuming that there aren’t extreme circumstances.
For example, there was a time when robberies were out of hand and the sanhedrin said that if not for those who bought stolen good the robbers would not rob. So they punished them very severely.
You probably know of the war with the tribe of Binyamin over the ‘concubine in Givah.’ This was in the times of the Shoftim. In that case Binyamin defended the murderers and a war was declared. Certainly not only the murderer was killed in that war.
I know that I don’t have to tell you the story of Pinhas where clearly there was no time for a court to do anything…
In Tractate Sanhedrin it talks about how they would deal with somebody violated a negative precept on purpose three times. All these are examples of extenuating circumstances.
In Bava Kama there is an intersting argument as to whether a person need go to a court to get back what is his- ie if, for example, someone stole my bike and its in his house. Can I break into his house and take it back or must I go to court? All agree that if I might not get it back later that I can take the law into my own hands. Where do they argue? When its not in danger of being gone for good. One says go to court and you’ll eventually get it back and one says that you can take the law into your own hands since you know its your and you don’t have to go through the bother of going to court. You know what? We rule like the one one who says you don’t have to bother going to court. (If you want I can get you the exact page tommorro-just tell me if you want the source.)
One thing is for sure though- the strictness of having good witnesses is to make sure the person is really guilty- not to show compassion for the wicked who we know did it by making red tape like in America where murderers walk free on technicalities.
Joe Shmoe – I’m not as learned as you obviously, but my understanding about capital punishment in Judaism is that it has to be administered by the Sanhedrin right? Not some random vigilante, right? And the rules about capital punishment were so stringent that a Sanhedrin that administered the ultimate penalty once in a 70 year period was considered what, murderous, right? But still – it was the sanhedrin and not some random enraged dude, right?
First Im going to post a few quick comments on earlier commnet ( since I have’t been at this post for a while.
After that Im going to address Mufti on his question to Ben-David.
Laya,
Im sorry I didn’t answer you before (comment 12) I didn’t see the post for a while.
“destroyed becasue of Sinat Chinam, remember?”
-Laya do you know why they said that? Its becasue the Jews then did not worship idols or do those terrible things in the times of the second temple. But they had sinat chinam and in faft let the romans in to their cities becasue of the sin’ah. Not what you are saying.
laya wrong again…
“Luckily we are not kararites and our court system and our halacha always made it mandatory that complete undeniable proof of knowledge and intent was found before any punishment was doled out, otherwise, we’d probably all be dead by now. Compassion is built into our system.”
–when things get out of hand the above is dispensed with.
Maybe if you would study Sanhedrin you would know that if somebody did an act three times but the court technically couldn’t kill them –they would starve them.
JM,
I like your posts but I don’t think that in the past people thought that the earth was flat. Maybe in the middle dark ages in Europe – bu tin antiquity I don’t believe so.
If anybody can find me sources on this I would appreciate it.
YM,
For your info lesbianism is not OK. Its not like being Homo – and there is no death penalty but it is wrong as stated in the Talmud.
Heshy I support you against Tom C.
Hey BD,
Thanks for the information. But let Muffti be a little picky if you don’t mind too much.
You said:
There is consistency in these claims. The idea is that it is tragic to be gay in our society since gay people lack certain advantages that straight people have. In a society of full acceptance, they wouldn’t make such claims. The normalcy claim is a claim about the consistent presence of homosexuality. It’s normal in the sense of not maladjusted. It’s tragic in the sense that you will be vicitmized.
Now, Muffti knows that you don’t like this line of argument and disagree with the truth of one of its premises. But Muffti doesn’t see the inconsistency in the claims.
Next, you say:
Gay marriage isn’t meant for the promiscuous gay men any more than straight marriage is meant for promiscuous straight men. What are you talking about?
Finally, putting aside the rhetoric and politics, it isn’t clear that there is NO evidence for a genetic basis. The practice has been around and present cross culturally in various different society’s. The evidence from twins while not consistent with strict genetic determination is certainly suggestive of some genetic basis since the correlation is both statistically significant, above standard population rates. Does that do anything to assuage burden of proof worries?
muffti:
Sure; we can all agree that the phenomenon isn’t strictly genetic. It doesn’t follow that there is no genetic basis for the phenomenon, right?
– – – – – – – – – –
Gay propaganda asserts that homosexuality is strictly genetic as part of a claim that “gays don’t choose to be gay” and therefore they shouldn’t be discriminated against.
The genetic argument is also part of the claim that gayness is “natural” – which is then sloppily extended to unbased claims that gayness is normal or harmless.
I really don’t care whether homosexuality is strictly genetic or not – Judaism and Western morality (and most other cultures) still pass judgement on genetically influenced traits (anger is bad, intelligence is good, schizophrenia is tragic in New York but may make you a respected witch doctor in other places). People are still held responsible for these traits, and their negative consequences, and unfortunate bearers of these traits are expected/helped to work to change them.
The big non-sequitir is how gay activists get from “It’s genetic” to “it’s normal” – and on to “you’re a brute for not accepting this”.
This trick is pulled off using victimology doubletalk – the underlying message here is “being gay is SO tragic that NOBODY would choose this – so please pity us, and don’t make our burden any greater.”
Astoundingly, this emotional claim coexists with loud assertions that homosexuality it normal! Which is it – is being gay a tragic fate, or so normal it should be no big deal in our culture?
Ask a gay activist to stick to one claim for the duration of a conversation, and most of them can’t – they hop back and forth between self-dramatizing victimhood and out-n-proud assertions of normalcy.
Amazingly, people fall for this.
muffti:
But there seems to be a great deal to rule out before we can settle on the model you are proposing.
– – – – – – – – –
I am not proposing it – I am reporting it.
These are the mainstream psychological/developmental theories, constructed by the major lights of modern therapy.
They were never disproved, just shouted down. And they DO explain a lot of what is going on.
Don’t confuse media volume with scientific bona fides. This is not a “new theory”. It is the original mainstream science (as scientific as psychology can be).
The burden of proof lies with the innovators. So far their claims about homosexuality (like their claims about the impact of widespread divorce) have not been borne out by the facts. Those countries that extended marriage rights to gays have not seen a shift in behavior – so the pity-me claim that society’s oppression was to blame is shown to be false.
Something else is causing widespread promiscuity among people who seem very sincere about their desire to find true love.
People are free to choose promiscuity as their lifestyle – but they can’t expect the rest of us to call it marriage. That means something else in our society, and we’re not brutes for insisting on that distinction, or for placing promiscuity beneath committment in our society’s scale of values.
The burden of proof is on the innovators.
Tom revealing wrote:
Ben-David, perhaps you should re-think your approach. This is an argument you’re not going to win– even if you’re correct on the merits.
– – – – – – – – –
Thanks for admitting that the facts are on my side. As we shall soon see, the rest of your post returns to political grandstanding.
… but does your comment about “the merits” mean you are willing to:
1) live a life that is without factual/moral merit?
2) impose a structural change on society even though you admit it has no merit?
further:
Perhaps the heart of the issue, religiously and culturally, is: why do we affirmatively privilege monogamous, heterosexual relationships?
– – – – – – – –
Because it is our culture.
Western, Jewish, take your pick.
It is how we, in our society – even secular American society – think things should be ordered.
It is how we define healthy adulthood and adult relationships.
No other reason is necessary. The burden of proof is with the innovators – and as you have admitted that the facts of gay pathology are as I have described, good luck.
so when you write:
Suppose someone from an African country were to argue, ‘in my culture, polygamy– unlike gay marriage– is widely practiced and culturally accepted. There’s far more of a basis for polygamy in history and cultural tolerance, than for gay marriage. Why can’t I have it recognized here?’
– – – – – – – –
Because it’s not our culture. You want your culture, go back to Africa.
further:
The challenge is to articulate an affirmative rationale for traditional marriage and sexuality.
– – – – – – – – – – –
This is basically what I have done – and you’ve basically admitted that you have no answer to my fact-based discourse.
The description of how the norm of compulsive gay promiscuity differs from our society’s concept of mental health and maturity pretty much limns out our society’s definition of mental health and maturity as it goes.
Elsewhere you mention Moses and Jesus. Please avoid returning to straw men – I have not thumped on a Bible anywere in this thread.
further:
As a practical matter, a full-throttle attack on gay folks won’t work.
– – – – – – – – – – –
This is not what I have done, by any stretch of the imagination.
I’m sure you’d be more comfortable if the discussion returned to pity-me victimology, but it ain’t gonna happen.
Please don’t set up straw men. My arguments are not based on religious chauvinism, but on solid fact and mainstream Western (and in this forum, Jewish) values.
If you can’t win on factual “merits” don’t paint me as a fundamentalist.
muffti! get down already!
Muffti, can you have ck call me for a 3 minute talk before shabbat kicks in?
Ben-David,
What you are saying is consistent with what Muffti was asking about/suggesting. You say:
Sure; we can all agree that the phenomenon isn’t strictly genetic. It doesn’t follow that there is no genetic basis for the phenomenon, right? Quantitiative traits seem to be affected by environmental factors, despite setting initial likely trait development. Muffti’s point was really that it is an overly simplistic model that relegates traits directly to genetics or to environmental influence when we have models that predict genetico-environmental interactions to rule out as well.
As for promiscuity, presumably there are other factors that may prohibit long term relationships besides the model you propose; for example, if the general commitment phobia that men exhibit is a bar to promiscuity, it wouldn’t be surprising if two men together made the chances of successful relationships lower.
Muffti is indeed no expert on these topics so appologies if these conjectures and questions are sophmoric. But there seems to be a great deal to rule out before we can settle on the model you are proposing.
Thanks, JMom. I’m a Southern girl, I get very unhappy when someone talks bad about my mama. And I probably expressed myself unclearly as well in my original post…should have put more emphasis on the fact that I think “breeder” is an unkind term.
Still disagree with you, still completely disagree with Ben-David — I trust the American Psychiatric Association’s determination that homosexuality is not pathological more than I do the “evidence” he’s cobbled together based mostly on anecdotal evidence — since the incidence of homosexuality seems to be fixed at one in ten cross-culturally, it’s not surprising to me that the factor for gay twin pairs is smaller than the factor for blue eyes. The Torah forbids it, you follow the Torah, fine…but shouldn’t you take it as a matter of faith, instead of speculating about a tendency towards roleplay (which straight people do too) as further “proof” that something is unhealthy? Your faith is admirable, your “proof” less so.
“The two women who are left behind when two guys set up house can just set up house themselves. No problem.”
The men learned to cook and decorate – they discovered they could do without us women. BUT….. they still needed us for that ONE little thing. THAT personal, physical thing. Ya know. Digging each other that way was not allowed. But not any more.
Now they don’t need us for anything at all.
“So what! We can cope. We will just turn the other way and it will be a brave new world, no problem.”
But, it doesn’t work that way for most of us women, and it just might, for a lot more of the men. Our tolerance of them is much greater than their tolerance of us. When you are older I will explain why.
“No men? Who cares. There is always bowling and adoption.”
As many a strong woman is now discovering, the men still get the final say. Re marriage, they get to ask. It has to be worth their while.
We toss our heads defiantly until someone tries to hurt us, or we get a little softer, a little maternal, around our middle or late thirties.
In this brave new rainbow-friendly world, the joke will be on us women. It is already. The other shoe is just dangling in the air.
And everybody, everybody, is just sitting around grinning. It’s like the lefties who can’t figure out how to be Zionists.
Pooor things. “our hands are tied” one said to me.
Oh blah. If you can’t stick up for yourself…..
Ben-David, perhaps you should re-think your approach. This is an argument you’re not going to win– even if you’re correct on the merits.
Perhaps the heart of the issue, religiously and culturally, is: why do we affirmatively privilege monogamous, heterosexual relationships? It’s not because gay people are promiscuous (assuming arguendo that to be true). I doubt that Abraham or Moses or Jesus looked at the statistics and decided to keep gay people from marrying.
Suppose someone from an African country were to argue, ‘in my culture, polygamy– unlike gay marriage– is widely practiced and culturally accepted. There’s far more of a basis for polygamy in history and cultural tolerance, than for gay marriage. Why can’t I have it recognized here?’
The challenge is to articulate an affirmative rationale for traditional marriage and sexuality.
And, you know, everyone has a favorite gay (lesbian?) couple that’s been together forever. As a practical matter, a full-throttle attack on gay folks won’t work.
muffti:
Promiscuous gay people swear up and down that all they want is to find their dream lover and settle down. There’s no reason not to believe them.
Compulsively undercutting your own desires/not being emotionally mature enough to maintain adult relationships – that is the basis for the assessment of pathology.
This fits the theoretical model: the homosexual attraction results from feeling distanced from/inadequate in the role of one’s biological sex, for any number of reasons. The attraction is a sexualization of the perceived gap between the self and others of one’s sex.
This results in compulsive promiscuity – because in gay liasons, each partner is basically consuming the masculinity of the other, or reinforcing their masculinity (some slightly different scenarios in lesbian relationships, but similar overall). But the gap, the sense of inadequacy is never filled – can really never be filled from outside the self.
Paradoxically, as soon as gay couples begin to get to know each other as people, the relationships start to fall apart (the 18 month mark). This is because once the partner is seen as an imperfect human – which is where a mature, adult relationship would begin! – they can no longer function as an icon of masculinity.
The result is an adulthood burnt up in a sequence of adolescent infatuations.
It also explains the large amount of playacting and dressup in the gay world – especially using extreme icons of femininity (drag) and masculinity (musclemen/biker imagery).
The theory was never disproved – just shouted down. And it explains a lot of what is seen in the gay world.
Regarding twins – identical twins share genetic material. If a trait is identical in both twins (like eye color) it’s likely that it’s a purely genetic trait. Low levels of correlation between the twins indicate other factors besides genetics.
The gay propaganda misquotes the twin studies to imply that gayness is “inherited” like eye color. In fact the data proves just the opposite. Compare these results (from the Minnesota survey, the largest twin study to track homosexuality):
When one twin has blue eyes, the other has blue eyes 99.9 percent of the time. Purely genetic.
When one twin has diabetes, the other has diabetes 80 percent of the time (I think it was around there, in the 80s). Genetics plus environment – eating habits, exercise, etc.
When one twin was divorced, the other was divorced 60 percent of the time. Obviously this is mostly environmental and volitional (there is a spouse involved, and other behaviors).
When one twin is gay, the other is gay 55 percent of the time.
So – what has been proved? We are already solidly in the realm of phenomena that are not strictly determined by genetics. The 55 percent sounds impressive when quoted in isolation – but in context, it proves just the opposite of what the gay propagandists claim.
It’s likely that factors in the family environment are the primary cause of gayness.
In line with what muffti said, it has seemed to me that most individuals are born with elements of both, and given the right set of circumstances one or the other can be triggered and remain the dominate sexual trait. In other cases, it simply is.
Ben David,
That is an interesting load of statistics. Out of curiousity, is there any evidence that cuts against/for a common cause analysis of promiscuity and homosexuality? And why is promiscuity analyzed as evidence of pathology rather than a lifestyle preference?
Furthermore, what explains the relatively stable 55% chance of gay twins when the population average is far lower?
The nature vs. nurture debate has been painted in terms that no geneticist would accept: few traits are controlled purely genetically or purely environmentally. Or, at least, many traits depend on subtle interactions between genetic make up and environment. Does that throw a wrench into the analysis at all?
Finally, and most importantly, why should we be so sure that homosexuality or heterosexuality have a single cause? What tells against sexuality being influenced by many factors? Why rule out the possibility that some homsexuals are created by trauma while others are genuinely born that way? (This, like the others, question are genuine rather than meant as challenges).
By the way, I didn’t make the initial connection between Avignon and earlier popes, but understand your comment better now.
I know where Avignon is, and in fact have visited it during their annual summer festival. I recall an interesting moment walking by a clown at the festival who was behind the scened and for some reason was practicing on a trumpet. He was playing a Nino Rota piece from a Fellini movie that happens to be one I love dearly. It was a surreal moment and one that has stayed with me for a long time.
Provence and Avignon are okay, but I insist on Italy because I prefer the food.
(Oh, Middle– Avingnon’s in France, the HQ of the Anti-Popes of yore. Is Provence OK?)
Middle, also sprach il Papa, yes, indeed. jesus was preparing for the Passover, as the New Testament accounts make clear. You’ll be happy to know that I make that point to my high school kids in religious ed.
(And Middle, please– could we refrain from French– at least for today?)
The Last Supper was a Passover Seder. N’est ce pas?
Are you really looking for villa rentals? I ask BECA– USE I WOULD LOVE TO RENT A VILLA IN ITALY FOR A YEAR AND GET OUT OF THE RAT RACE.
Although I have no idea whether they have any Jewish day schools in Florence and environs.
Middleman: Habemus Papem, baby. My rulings ignored? Sounds like my colleague in Rome.
And, hell, I’ve always figured I’m infalliable.
I’ll looking into villa rentals in Avingnon. In the meantime– drum roll, please– my first encyclical’s in the works.
Lesbianism gets the big thumbs-up! (As well as certain kinds of three-ways.)
Note to papal Self: credit breakthrough Torah analysis of laya in footnote.
Further note to Self: was the Last Supper a pot luck organized by Mary Magdelene?
All respect is surely due to Parcequilfaut’s Mama and everybody else’s too. I must have expressed myself badly. Sorry.
Laya is REALLY smart. I found her Kaballah analysis very interesting and I can see the point, yes.
Will you please all get married so somebody cares if you make it home? These are difficult times obviously from the news.
Well, well, you’ve all been busy, if not productive.
When I left this thread last night, we had already disentagled arguments based on victimology and the tautology of PC tolerance. We had already established that the stabbing was indefensible, and that gays “should be respected as people”. We had starting moving on to more substantial issues: the evidence of gay pathology, and the problems in trying to square a pro-gay outlook with Judaism’s moral dictates.
But the pro-gay boosters know that these are dangerous areas in which they cannot win, so overnight michael and others have been busy shifting the argument to irrelevant discussions of how “tolerant” gay bars are, and parcequifaut recycled the emotion-laden horror at the stabbing that was already dealt with.
Desperately avoiding factual discussion.
TomC:
If you want specifics (I haven’t done this much sourcing since university) then I’d encourage you to look at the APA’s website on Homosexuality: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
– – – – – – – – –
This page, like other position papers – and like the original de-classification of homosexuality – was the result of a pitched battle within the APA. It in no way represents a unanimous opinion.
In fact, the doctor who spearheaded the removal of homosexuality from the Diagnostic Manual recently conducted a study to test the claims for reparative therapy – and concluded that it is effective for patients who desire it. This of course made him a pariah in liberal circles, but his study was published in a peer-reviewed journal.
The APA itself has recently published papers indicating the acceptability and efficacy of therapy for gay-to-straight transision when the patient wants it.
You’d know all this if you read the Narth website, instead of dismissing them high-handedly.
more Tom:
NARTH is in fact far from the mainstream psychological community. It’s research is considered flawed because of the use of biased samples (instead of random selection), inconsistant operationalization of varriables (the way they measure things don’t jive with what their trying to measure), and it’s not uncommon to hear of leaders of the “ex-gay†movement being caught “reverting back to homosexualityâ€.
– – – – – – – – –
Narth does not conduct its own research. It reviews the research appearing in peer-reviewed journals.
If you really are a professional in this field, you will no doubt be aware of the equally sloppy pro-gay research that is conducted. The most egregious was the study by gay professors that set out to prove that there were lare numbers of faithful gay couples. When the data didn’t bear that out, they redefined “fidelity” to make the data fit the rhetoric.
Regarding “reversion” to homosexuality: the diagnostic model parallels that for other addictive/compulsive behaviors. So: when the recovered patient is under stress, the old behavior pattern presents itself. We often see alchoholics, drug users, and people with eating disorders whorequire several courses of treatment to overcome their addiction, or that “fall off the wagon” – but we don’t conclude that this means they are being “untrue” to their “alchoholic self”. This is false rhetoric.
Again: the professional who spearheaded the normalization of homosexuality is now convinced – after scientific study – that people can change their sexual identity.
It is also most interesting to see – in the general gay literature – that the notion of “fluid sexuality” is embraced when it’s convenient or bolsters arguments for sexual license, but in discussions of homosexual pathology it is rigidly insisted the sexual orientation is fixed.
michael wrote:
Um, no, I like committed relationships. As do, believe it or not, a number of gay people. And (this will really blow your mind) straight people sometimes (SOMETIMES!) are sexually promiscuous and (get ready for a shocker!) this is not a modern development.
– – – – – – – – –
We went through this about 80-90 posts back in this thread.
1) What is the “number” of gay people who favor committed relationships? Studies conducted by the GMHC and other pro-gay organizations indicate that only about 5-10 percent of out-n-proud gays live in committed relationships – and even in those few “partnerships” promiscuity is tacitly accepted.
This confirmed by data from the European countries that have created legal union/marriage options for gays. A generation after liberation, only 5-10 percent of homosexuals take advantage of these rights and actually marry.
All this is taking place in a Western world in which tens of millions of heteros (if not more) have legitimized long-term partnerships without wedlock, and developed legal structures to allow for shared property and other issues. In other words: nothing has prevented the gay community – if it wished to – from developing into a primarily monogomous, faithful community if gays wanted to.
The evidence is that they want – or are compelled to seek out – promiscuity.
These are facts. It is not “chauvinistic” or “hateful” to bring up these facts in a discussion of the normalization of homosexuality – certainly not in a Jewish discussion of this topic.
more michael:
The reason it’s “so hard to fathom†is because gayness and straightness are not incompatible thought systems. They’re not thought systems. They’re sexual preferences. If our entire thought process was based on what kind of sex we liked more, we’d be in a lot of trouble, wouldn’t we?
– – – – – – – – – – –
…and one could say that’s the trouble with modern sex-saturated society. But then that would lead to the obvious observation that the gay identity – based entirely on sexual preference – and the gay lifestyle – the bleeding edge of erotic obsession – aren’t very valid or healthy.
Oops.
Let’s try it this way (which is basically the way of Freud and every other major psychological theorist):
Homosexual attraction is a symption of underlying mental distress.
This explains several things:
It explains the high percentage of homosexuals who report childhood sexual abuse (Laya – there’s your link to pedophilia) or dysfunctional childhood households.
Around 70 percent of gays surveyed were abused as children, compared with less that 20 percent of the general male population. And 60-80 percent of homosexual men reported childhood homes that fit into several patterns of dysfunction: distant or abusive father and/or emotionally entangling mother.
Again, these numbers are from large-scale studies by GMHC and other pro-gay researchers.
It also explains the persistence of compulsive, self-destructive behaviors long after the battle for legal and cultural acceptance has been one: the underlying mental distress remains.
I have posted previous on this and other threads about the evidence for this coming out of impeccably professional and pro-gay sources like the Dutch Ministry of Health.
It ALSO explains how the most effective reparative therapies work. The most effective therapies address and resolve the underlying issues of abuse/lack of male identification. When these issues are resolved the homosexual attraction is greatly reduced in force.
It also explains why many young men who have gay “crushes” in their teen years naturally outgrow this transient phase – as they grow into adult competence, they integrate a healthy male identity, and the teenage fears/sense of otherness that led to idolizing another guy subside.
So: the argument that homosexuality is pathological has a solid theory, is backed up by evidence of the sufferers’ histories, and is further confirmed by the success of therapies based on the theory.
The arguments from the other side? Victimology whining such as:
I believe gay people aren’t any different from anybody else and shouldn’t be treated as potentially destructive pariahs.
– – – – – – – – – –
This is not the subject of debate.
Throughout this thread I have reiterated my respect for gays as people, and Jewish gays as Jews. Why do the pro-gay posters keep looping back to the same straw-man of intolerance?
I conclude that the pro-gay argument is cotton-candy spun from the acrid sweetness of forced victimology and one-sided PC “tolerance”.
Matters of morality and public policy must be decided based on something more solid – like the facts.
Here’s a thought from a rabbi I know. He said once that homosexuality might actually be MORE normal for the world, because generally like wants to be with like (like a kibbutz, or religious neighborhood maybe?) But the reason the Torah says that male and female need to be together is because God is both male and female, the physical act of male and female coming together affects and reinforces something divine about the world.
Homosexuality simply does not allow for that spiritual synthesis of opposites which is part of our mission in the world. I know this is very kabbalistic and will therefore only speak to you if you already kinda get the whole male/female masculine/feminine trip in Kabbalah as it relates to aspects of God , but it gives a reason why homosexuality is forbidden without the stigma.
All I want to say is, JMom, I straight up (pun intended) said I didn’t like the word “breeder”, but that it was probably less hateful than your comments about pedophilia, since in its most literal sense it could be construed as a term for people who have children. (The gay community didn’t make up that term, the ZeroPop crowd did.)
I don’t use that word, because I don’t use hateful words if I can avoid it. My mama taught me not to. And, thanks much, I couldn’t use that term to my mother even if I would, because she adopted me and went through years and years of crap in order to get me in the first place instead of, excuse, “breeding”, because she couldn’t. So step off.
Read critically before you jump to criticize. (And at least around here, it’s considered in the worst taste to talk trash about people’s mamas.)
And Nashville has nice, clean, upscale gay bars, booty-dancin’ clubs, and dive bars. If and when I go out to a club, which is rarely, it’s always a gay club. They’re the places around here where you never have to worry about a flap of any kind…no junkies in the parking lot, no one getting stabbed on the dance floor. Can’t speak for anyone else’s city or their experience, and never tried. (The fact that there are only three or four such bars in operation may have something to do with the upscale-ness, in fairness.)
I have the doctor in the morning, must to bed.
Tom, what about Pope of Jewlicious? Surely you have some qualifications for that role, and even if you feel underqualified, it won’t matter because – on principle – none of us will respect your rulings anyway.
But yes, lesbianism seems to be kosher.
Never asked you to hate anybody.
Just to distance yourself from what is not your world.
The Torah doesn’t say, “THOU SHALT drink water on a hot day!!!,” because you would anyway. You get thirsty.
And, it doesn’t say “THOU SHALT NEVER, EVER, bang your head on the wall!!!,” because you wouldn’t anyway. It would hurt.
What the Torah tells people not to do, some of them, at least sometimes, will want to do. Or why would it bother to say, don’t do that?
Now, you can call it “G-d’s commandment for the good of His people” or, if you want, you can call it “the collective hard-earned human experience of many generations, seeing what works and what is bad for the community”. Either way, that prohibition is in there for a reason. If this was just an OK fun thing, or worked fine and had no bad consequences, why would there be a prohibition against it?
Our ancestors didn’t know about molecules and atoms, and they may have thought the world was flat, but none of that applies to this issue. They were as intelligent as we are. They could observe how life is lived as well as we can. They didn’t need degrees in sociology or psychology, which hadn’t been invented yet.
Yes, it is hard to separate out respect for individual people, from distance from, and regret for, what they are doing or feeling.
Not everyone can win this one, in spite of what you say.
I do not have a conspiracy theory. Except, wait, maybe I do. An awful lot of money, and very great PR skills, have been invested in changing attitudes about this issue, and these efforts have worked spectacularly well. I have got to admire that. The success is amazing.
Social changes are subtle. They have to be observed over a time. I don’t know how old you are. You may still be on your first “social era” so to speak.
And, you are still speaking from a position of safety. You have nothing to lose.
Anybody who says, I don’t have to listen to the people of the past, because they did not know about molecules and atoms, and they thought the world was flat, which it isn’t, and because they knew no sociology or psychology, by no fault of their own, because these things had not yet been invented, is NOT a child of the Torah.
Now, were the people of the past, whose collective voice is in the Torah, (or G-d’s voice, depending on how you feel about this)
idiots or not???
Or do you want to cherry-pick? Some parts are kinda cool but not others?
There is no nice way out of this. I wish there were.
yeah, what he said.
Um, no, I like committed relationships. As do, believe it or not, a number of gay people. And (this will really blow your mind) straight people sometimes (SOMETIMES!) are sexually promiscuous and (get ready for a shocker!) this is not a modern development.
And as far as my parents’ values, well, Jewish Mother, you don’t know my parents and you don’t know their values. You apparently think everybody straight, Jewish and over the age of 30 lives their lives like a Yiddishe Norman Rockwell painting or according to the Betty Crocker cookbook. It ain’t like that.
The reason it’s “so hard to fathom” is because gayness and straightness are not incompatible thought systems. They’re not thought systems. They’re sexual preferences. If our entire thought process was based on what kind of sex we liked more, we’d be in a lot of trouble, wouldn’t we?
Why do I support gay rights? It’s not because I’m rebelling (hey, guess what, my parents also support gay rights). It’s not because I’m fighting a war against society. It’s because I believe gay people aren’t any different from anybody else and shouldn’t be treated as potentially destructive pariahs.
Am I a child of the Torah? I guess so. And the Torah says I should love my neighbor as myself. Even if my neighbor’s got a boyfriend.
So you keep on with the conspiracy theories, and I’ll keep on destroying civilization as we know it by not hating gay people. Deal?
JM, hang in there and don’t let these characters get you down.
It IS more complicated a matter than these ‘what’s wrong with a little parade?’ types seem to think.
Tolerance is totally OK by me, but beware– the next step is reinventing marriage, conception, parenting, and all the rest. It’s all unfolding at warp speed here in the good ol’ USA.
Tom Morrissey said some interesting things in post # 34 that should be thought about.
That is why the result is not mild amusement.
This is a struggle between two incompatible thought-systems. Why is that so hard to fathom?
Are you hiding behind them because they have guts, and you, also, don’t want to commit? But you don’t have the guts to flaunt it the way they do? But their defiance of your parents’ values secretly pleases you?
Oooooh, I shouldn’t have said that.
OK that’s rough. But you know I am on your side so please give me pass. Sorry for the pain.
Fellas, sometimes you just have to decide you won’t play ball on Yom Kippur. Without saying other people can’t. But it’s not fine with you. Why? Well, because you are a child of the Torah, that’s why.
no one is coming in war here. it’s a parade. They’re walking and dancing and saying that they’re proud to be who they are.
Jewish Mother. You just said that gay people come in war. You are saying that gay people are making war on straight people. You are accusing a tiny minority who wants to be accepted as they are with causing the downfall of society.
You’d think the Jews of all people would know better.
i’m confused and just assuming that there was a joke in there that i missed…
Fine. Yes. But I appreciate your honesty about the hostility coming in the direction of the breeders.
The usual schtick is ” we mean no harm we just want to be part of the community in a nice way.” I only wish there were a way for that to be true.
Alas alas there is not. Only in myth not in reality.
They do not come in peace, they come in war, and may the best man win.
Nobody wants to know that. Sigh.
WTF!!!!!!
“most Italians are gay”
???????
It was a real pleasure. Thank you again laya!
Now I gotta run to a wedding of two kikkes and they of a opposite sex. I know, so boring!
Mazal tov anyway!