The 4th annual Gay Pride Parade just happened outside my balacony. The decision to ban the event was overturned by a court on Sunday and Mayor Lupolianski was ordered to personally pay court costs of NIS 30,000 as well as put up rainbow flags lining the route.

How cute they all were. The cutest thing of all was that they were all sporting pink ribbons instead of the now ubiquitous orange or blue disengagement ones. The color scheme moved from rainbow to pink to a purple religious lesbian group to pink and blue for bisexualty followed by the green of the the police force and the black and white of the yeshiva bochurs in their own half-assed counter-parade.

See, unfortunetly, not everyone was taken by the cuteness and two participants in the parade were stabbed by a supposedly religious Jewish man. I don’t care what you think of homosexuality, but stabbing people is just wrong, and a hilul Hashem and a sin, especially by religous standards. A little more chesed, a little less gevurah, people.

In any case, World Pride has been rescheduled for 2006 because of the security situation surrounding the disengagement that would have complicated matters. Pink and orange would have been a little to much, it seems.

It’s funny, because just yesterday I commented to a friend that a billbord we passed was a little
homoerotic to which she replied “I think this whole country is a little homoerotic.”

Exhibit A. This was NOT at the gay pride parade. This was the Orange Music Festival I was at the other night to hear Faithless and Infected Mushroom and get some more research for the story I’m writing.

This man was not gay and this act of butt showing was entirely uncalled for.


About the author

Laya Millman

281 Comments

  • Between Paris Hilton and this I am not comfortable. People might walk past my monitor. Yuck.

  • Oh my falafel! An Israeli man who like all Israeli men needs to make the switch to boxers showing his ass! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Laya, I am ashamed of you, young lady. A real committed Jew who cares about the future of the Jewish people and refuses to let those evil, wicked, destructive lesbians destroy Judaism once and for all would have been with those yeshiva bachurim. And would it kill you to throw a few rocks? I mean, it’s the disintegration of society here!

  • Laya, I believe that it is parades like this disgusting one tht will lead to our demise.

    I support stopping it by any means possible.

    Laya you should study the real meaning of Hillul Hashem and sin.

    Letting this go and not stopping is the ‘real’ Hillul Hashem and sin. I’m sure you know that with all the Torah classes that you study.

    Don’t let the media corrupt your sense of right, wrong, Hillul and Kiddush hashem.

  • Hey, “eternal covenant” means “no demise.” I mean, if you believe in the Torah, then it is intellectually inconsistent to believe that a few guys in thongs marching in a parade will lead the destruction of the Jewish people.

    As far as the present day, I would be a lot more worried about the people who blow up buses and launch rockets than our fellow Jews who were born attracted to members of their own gender. When was the last time a gay Israeli blew up a disco, you know?

    Ahh, but what do I know? Clearly, if I studied more Torah, I would understand that G-d wants me to kill gays.

  • You know, Joe, I’m pretty sure the temple wasn’t destroyed because there were gay jews (and this was during the time of the romans, remember, you know there were jews in those both houses too). It was destroyed because of Sinat Chinam, remember? but you should know that from the torah classes you go to.
    So I ask you, which is really gonna destroy us? some guys in pink or the dude that stabs them?

  • Laya, I love your blog, and don’t want to sound like a smart as$. But the temple may not haave been destroyed for homosexuality, but the flood sure was bcause of imoral relationships, not JUST homosexual relationships, but it was included.

    So … exile vs flood destroying entire planet … you decide.

    just don’t think THAT argument cuts it. I still don’t think what happened in this article is right, that is forsure wrong as well. a sin is a sin, two wrongs don’t make a right, don’t cry over slillt milk, etc …

  • sure, and you can believe it is a sin, just like eating shrimp. That doesnt give you license to hate the people yo.

  • oh, and also chaim, you remember the whole promise that god would never flood the earth again, symbolized by a rainbow, of all things? So I dont think we need to be worried about that.

  • Alright, just to weigh in on this halachic debate. Are gay people inately evil needing punishment… Well no, acting upon those feeling in the from of two males having sexual relations with each other, that’s clearly wrong, other homosexual sexual encounters, probably wrong, Having Homosexual feelings and tendancies, that’s just the yetzer hara, you don’t get punnished for having one, your just supposed to try your best to fight it. Therefore, Gay pride parade in Jerusalem, yes there is something wrong about it, for a group of people who argue that we need to learn to respect them and their opinions, to be sensitive to their perspectives, they don’t seem to show the same respect to the overwelmingly religious Jerusalem. It’s a bit of a double standerd. Now, about the guy stabing, yeah, that’s also a deffenet wrong. Now, the last I checked, even Pinchas who was praised for his Zelotness, knew that in order to act that way (IE taking maters into his own hands, he had to catch them during the act, now unless those people who were stabed were activly engaged in anal sex, then he had no right to do what he did by any stretch, and that is assuming he knew kol ha torah kulo such that he could qualify to be a zelot in the first place. Baring a Pinchas, there is a legal process that’s supposed to happen biblicly, I dought this happend either. Anyway, point is, right on Laya, way to point out the truth in this one, the parade isn’t right, but neither is the response. It was deffenetly a Chilel Hashem on both sides. When are we going to learn that the only way to have Achdut/Unity and serve Hashem the way he wants us to, is to learn to love every jew, Ahavat Yisrael, it’s not that hard. Remeber, the Bal HaTanya I think puts it best, you can hate a persons actions, vehimently, without any room for understanding or forgivness, but you can not hate a person, not a single jew, the love has to be Blind. That’s the only way that we can help bring people back, like hillel did, to love everyone as ourselves.

  • One of the coolest things about Jerusalem is that it is a place where all things meet. East and West, modesty and promiscuity, Arab and Jew and Christian. Mount Zion and the Vally of Gehennom The spirit of the desert with the chaos of civilization, the ancient and the modern, religious and secular, the holy and the profane.

    The tension that all that creates is maddening and gorgeous, and well, kinda sexy. Personally, I don’t think these people were being disrespectful to the city, and I don’t think having the parade was wrong. They were, in large part, celebrating the kind of place this city is.

    Homosexuality is certainly an issue to be addressed within Judaism. People get all bent out of shape about it because it disgusts them, or threatens them or something, but really, there are better battles to be fought.

  • Flood who?

    How’s the birthrate?

    Nobody to flood.

    Go back to sleep.

    This stuff is deadly to women. There is only one woman on earth who understands that, and she is getting on in years.

    No, you don’t hate. Everybody has problems. But you can oppose somebody’s politics. Life is hard and their affliction is terrible; maybe it can be addressed.

    But let’s not wear tobacco colored ribbons to support the life choices of the people who die from lung cancer.

  • KOL HAKOVOD
    to the hero of the Jewish people who attacked the evil enemies of Hashem.
    You are like the great Pinchas in the Torah who stood up for Hashems honor. BRAVO

  • You can also view pictures of the ANTI GAY rally held in New York City on Sunday June.26,2005 at my blog at Heshys house.blogspot.com

  • Heshy… now you’ve crossed the line.

    To encourage violence against any Jew is both a Chilul, but to encourage violence against a particular identifiable group is also illegal in some places (and I’m proud to say that my home, Canada – who is celebrating it’s birthday now – is one of them).

    Heshy, there are worse thing facing this world than to gay guys in love.

    I am a past president of an Israeli Action Club on my campus, a graduate of a Jewish High School, executive member of the Hillel here, deeply involved in building the Jewish community and I’m gay. And proud of it. I don’t hide it, and if anyone’s got a problem with it they can go suck a lemon (oh the PC phrases we use for the internet).

    Jerusalem isn’t just the Holy City, it’s also the capital city, and as such every citizen of Israel has the right to celebrate their identities there – not just bigoted religious people.

    I’m done now. I don’t need to defend myself against your virolent hatered, but if you ever threaten me with violence to my face, you should beware of what it’ll look like when a faygale like me kicks your butt with 3 years of krav maga training.

    BeGe’avah
    Tom C

  • Michael! The inconcistency that you mention is exactly what Muffti was trying to say back here! Of course it’s inconsistent with God’s promises that the Jewish people get destroyed, even by him. And to all the Canadians, hope you had a good Canada day!

  • I won’t be the first to say that what endagers the Israel/Jews more than Arabs massacring us is our collective abandonning of the Torah. Please don’t see me as ‘holier than thou’. I’m not perfect, but I’m trying hard to learn more and get better.

    So my answer is: yes, ‘gay pride’ parades in Jerusalem do more harm to us than Islamic Jihad.

  • Muffti, it appears as if we agree on a theological issue. I think this calls for a party. Fried gator and Hurricanes all around. It’s on me this time.

    Seriously though, I think it’s a good question. If these people insist on taking every other word of Torah literally at face value, why should one of the most happy-cheerful-fuzzy parts of it (and there aren’t many) be ignored in favor of sensationalism?

    I mean, no matter what someone’s thoughts are on gay Jews, Moshiach or Michael Steinhardt, if they imply by saying “so-and-so will lead to the destruction of the Jewish people” that God can’t even keep one measly little promise, aren’t they committing what Rambam would term a grievous heresy?

  • Hurricanes and fried gator on you? Sweet…but maybe this time we should try to get something you can eat too 🙂 But Muffti totally agrees, especially w/r/t the Rambam.

  • Can someone please remind me the name of King David’s boyfriend??
    We’ve had gay jews forever, get over it guys.

  • The normalcy of homosexuality is still an open issue. It is definitely against the cultural and religious norms of modern day Israel.

    The marchers can stick banners and daisies wherever they want, but this is not just a “celebration” – it is an act of political agression.

    We have seen this PC trope before. A minority imposes its outlandish opinion by (a) declaring themselves “victims” (cue the sacred-sounding organ music) and then (b) heavy-handedly accusing The Rest of Us – you know, the majority – of being “intolerant”.

    Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. Israeli gays have marched repeatedly in Tel Aviv with little problem. The decision to move the march to Jerusalem – like the decision to hold international gay rallies in Rome and Jerusalem – are acts of political aggression. They are attempts to impose a minority opinion on a majority that disagrees. They are totally INtolerant assaults on existing “communities” with little care for those communities’ beliefs or social fabric.

    It’s telling that the march went ahead with the connivance of the Supreme Court – a body well-known to Israelis as an instrument of leftist cultural imposition.

    The stabbing is unfortunate, but understandable. When a community and its values are assaulted, the community fights back.

  • The stabbing was not simply “unfortunate” It was an absolute Hilul Hashem with no justification. None, whatsoever no matter what you believe. Hold a peaceful protest rally, hand out pamphlets, hold a prayer rally, whatever, but there is no excuse for that kind of violent, hateful behavior.

  • They were not marching through Mea Sharim, they were marching through downtown, right past treif restaurants and clubs that are open on Shabbat. Would you say that if someone went in and stabbed the club owner or the chef or butcher? would that also be “understandable” behavior by a “community whose values were assaulted”?

  • Thanks Laya… I understand now. They didn’t march past the Knesset – so it WASN’T scheduled in Jerusalem because Jerusalem is the political capital, as another poster implied….

    So: why WAS it scheduled in Jerusalem?

    Laya: if it had just been smacking and punching, would that have been OK? There’s been a lot of laying in the road lately (not THAT kind of laying…) would it have been OK for the Haredim to do that?

    The Jewish population of Jerusalem finally elected a mayor that hails from the most predominant sector of the city. He makes a judgement call based on the community’s values – values held by Jewish, Moslem, and Christian residents of the city – and Jerusalem’s special religious stature for those faiths.

    The Supreme Court overrules him – and in the context of the cultural war simmering since 1973 in Israel, it makes a point of rubbing the nose of this uppity “Dos” in it – has anyone EVER heard of a sitting public official being hit with a personal fine, and for such an amount?

    All this coming after a springtime of long smoldering resentment at precisely such heavy-handed left-wing political overreaching has sent up the first licks of what promises to be a flaming hot summer of conflict.

    What exactly should the reaction be?
    Valid right-wing political protests have been suspended at the last minute due to (largely fictional) worries about “the charged atmosphere” possibly sparking violence.

    Lupoliansky would have been well within his rights – and the limits of prudence – if he had canceled the march for that reason alone, given the previous events of the week.

    So: what is the acceptable response on the part of the affronted majority?

  • Certainly, the acceptable response on part of the “affronted majority” is not stabbing an innocent person.

    Justifying physical, deadly violence against powerless innocents by claiming that they represent an oppressive power…sounds almost Palestinian, doesn’t it?

  • BD says So: what is the acceptable response on the part of the affronted majority?

    I will simply repeat what I already wrote in comment 30 “Hold a peaceful protest rally, hand out pamphlets, hold a prayer rally, whatever, but there is no excuse for that kind of violent, hateful behavior.”

  • It’s not a “political affront” any more so than any other political rally in Israel… welcome to Israel. It’s better than blocking roads to prevent disengament because people can choose not to go to the parade but they still need to get to work.

    Welcome to democracy. Everyone who’s saying that there should be no Pride parades in Israel because it offends the sensabilities of the orthodox Jews should be prepared. I expect never to see you at the Israel Day parade or Walkathons. Your displays of radical politics are an affront to a larger group (the Arab/Muslim communities are larger than yours).

    So no more free speach or expression for your beliefs.

    Do you see how absurd you’re being. For Israel to be a democracy people MUST have the right to protest and celebrate visibly and equally. Otherwise welcome to Iran.

  • What was being “protested”? The way the majority of Israelis choose to live their lives?
    What was being “celebrated”? A pattern of behavior the majority still feel is not normal and even destructive?

    The rights of speech and assembly are intended to insure debate and airing of opinions. These gay marches air a lot of things…. but in the world of ideas, they are the equivalent of an iron fist.

    Would it be OK for a group promoting pedophilia to march in Jerusalem? Should they expect to march, uh, unmolested?

    But this is different, say all the “freethinkers”. That’s just the point – it’s only “different” if you have already accepted the normality of gayness. And so this rally comes to assert an unpopular opinion using the underhanded and undemocratic means of Victimology politics. All other opinions are delegitimized using emotional arguments that have nothing to do with reasoned discourse.

    In addition, this rally took place after months of one-sided imposition of political policy by the left – there is a straw-that-broke-the-camel’s-back quality to events as observed here in Israel. It also took place days after tense scenes of civil disobedience – the first ominous rumblings along precisely this cultural fault line. This, alone, would be sufficient reason to cancel such a contentious parade.

    Can ANYONE give me an example of a sitting public official being hit with a personal fine for an administrative decision? Can ANYONE explain how the majority that voted for Lupoliansky and identifies him was supposed to feel?

    Does ANYONE really think that a counter-demonstration would have been allowed, given the heavy-handed censure of he mayor’s decision?

    So: what is left?

    Sorry – I steadfastly refuse to fall into the trap of pitying these victims-by-design. They incited a provocation on purpose, to serve their own political aims.

  • Yeah, I’m sure that guy went to Jerusalem looking for a stabbing. I bet he’s laughing it up there in the hospital. I mean, what’s a stab wound when it helps you serve your own political aims? You’re totally onto those sinister gay people, dude! Rock on!

  • I CANNOT believe the sentiments expressed by these haters. As a matter of fact, there is NON halachic basis WHATSOEVER for stabbing a sinner, particularly if he is not actually sinning at the moment. I’m sure the stabber gancies himself a modern day Pinchas, but he is not, nor is the victim a modern-day Zimri. Ugh. I have the actual sources from the gemarah over at my blog.

  • Ben David, pedophilia is just a tad bit different, it involves a child being placed into a position of severe victim hood by an authority figure who violates their bodily integrity and causes irreparable psychological harm. Please, feel free to express your own views, but do so smartly.

    And I don’t think they were out there to push any victim agenda anymore than jews who show up for a Yom Ha’azmaut parade. In fact, it was the Heredim and Yeshiva boys i saw out there who were acting more like victims, so severly threatened by the aggressive sight of gay people prancing about in rainbow colors and balloons that they simply had to act out, right?

  • Ben David, #29. So you don’t agree with the disengagement protesters?

    #36, Democracies exist so that minorities can express themselves. Majorities may control the agenda, but minorities are protected. That’s the entire point.

  • The middle, as usual, picks things up by the tail end:

    – So you don’t agree with the disengagement protesters?
    – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    The disengagement protesters have taken to the streets in non-violent protest AFTER months in which their views – which are the views of the majority of Jewish Israelis – were shut out of the media and their protest rallies were disallowed.

    That is, the center-right’s freedoms of speech and assembly have been consistently abrogated – by precisely the same leftist clique that treated the mayor of Jerusalem like an uppity nigger.

    There have been no attacks on police, no saboteurs. The equivalent of the gay march would be something like a march through Chan Yunis or Ramallah – it hasn’t happened.

    Just non-violence civil disobedience – coming after a long period in which DEMOCRATIC avenues of free speech were shut down.

    more muddled middling:
    Democracies exist so that minorities can express themselves. Majorities control the agenda, but minorities are protected. That’s the entire point.
    – – – – – – – – – –
    This is a very apt description of the workings of a healthy democracy. This is NOT the current situation in Israel.

    In Israel, an ultra-secular, leftist minority is imposing its agenda on the majority. This minority has long controlled most of Israel’s economy, which is only gradually changing – and they still control Israel’s media, academia, and judiciary.

    From this position they have totally countermanded the public mandate to stop unilateral withdrawals, and are imposing their plan – which was soundly rejected by an overwhelming “majority” at the polls.

    The protest of the disengagement protesters is equivalent to Israel’s Boston Tea Party.

    The imposition of the gay rights parade on the “uneducated peons” is just the last in a string of heavy handed, undemocratic attempts to “re-educate the masses” from on high.

    I do not endorse the stabbing, or ANY violence.

    But none of those who are so concerned with human rights has told me what recourse the majority has in such a situation.

    None of you high, free thinkers has explained the Court’s gratuitously vindictive actions against the mayor of Jerusalem.

    You know, middle, in America the right to bear arms is directly related to these other rights… precisely to allow the public to rise up against such minority tyranny. It would be awful if that happens here, but it’s important to understand the back story, to understand that this cultural struggle has been building for some time to this breaking point.

    It’s really, REALLY important for American Jews to get straight who are the defenders of democracy in Israel, and who are its enemies.

    BIG HINT – the bolsheviks who have set themselves up as the watchdogs of “progressive humanism” have shown by their actions that they haven’t a truly democratic or “tolerant” bone in their bodies.

    BIG HINT #2 – the people that are being portrayed as fanatics are anything but.

    The gays forced an issue – and launched a salvo in a larger, ongoing cultural war – by moving the parade to Jerusalem. It was a no-lose situation: if they march unmolested, they can claim victory and get adulatory press coverage from their allies in the media. If they are opposed, their Big Brothers in the High Court can impose their will on the peasants. And if the peasants actually dare to fight back – they can get more worshipful press as “victims”, even though they instigated an act of cultural agression.

    It’s really, REALLY important to understand how this victimology rap works – and to understand just who are the “victims” of “oppression” here in Israel.

  • Ben David said “But none of those who are so concerned with human rights has told me what recourse the majority has in such a situation.”

    Actually, I have, and then I had to repeat myself. Please read up, perhaps you have forgotten. To you as well, just because it is not the answer you want to hear dos not mean it is a non response. If the majority is truly offended and feels this is a threat to their existance, let them take a page from the peaceful settler handbook. Start a non violent campaign of protest against this minority apparently holding you hostage because of who turns them on. I may still not agree with you, but you’ve gotten your voice heard in a respectful way and haven’t commited a Hilul Hashem.

    And again, I think you are projecting the victimhood thing.

  • Ben David, what country are you living in again? Cuz it sure ain’t Israel.

    I’ve never heard anything more laughable than how the Left and progressive forces control Israel while the Right are their victims. Next you’ll tell me aliens have landed.

  • Laya – I agree with you.
    I don’t think the stabbing was justified.
    Was the protest justified?
    Are the protesters being spun as ‘fundamentalist philistines’? Yes.

    Is the gay lobby using the “ooh, they’re oppressing us” dodge to sidestep the values argument, and demonize their opponents? Yes.

    Are many people of good will – including many on this list – taken in by that, and accepting the sloppy, broad condemnation of the people the media labels “primitives”? Yes.

    The entire gay rights movement has built itself up based on these techniques. It has played the games of victimology and political correctness expertly to avoid rational argument and demonize its opponents.

    In addition to all this – which is true in the US as well – the climate here in Israel is one in which 30-plus years of resentment at leftist/secularist hegemony are coming to a head. The dissing of Lupoliansky for making an understandable decision was a totally irresponsible provocation. I personally am grateful that there was just one crazy who crossed the line – I feared much worse.

    It’s important to understand the larger picture.

    You know as well as I do that’s how it will be spun in the media.

  • A propos the climate in Israel:

    From Ynet (English version of Yediot daily newspaper):
    Border policeman dies of wounds
    By Efrat Weiss and Roee Nahmias

    HAR ADAR – First Sgt. Natan Yasias died Sunday after falling into a creek while chasing Palestinian protesters near the Jerusalem-area settlement of Har-Adar.

    Protesters had pelted the workers with stones.
    Initial reports indicated the officer was hit by a rock. He was evacuated to Jerusalem’s Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital, but died a short time later.
    ….
    The incident was the latest in a string of violent anti-fence protests. Last Friday , an IDF soldier sustained moderate injuries when some 200 Palestinians and left-wing Israeli activists threw rocks and protested the security fence near the Palestinian village of Bilin.

    About a month ago an IDF soldier lost sight in his left eye from a stone that was thrown at him during a similar demonstration.

    Also Sunday, Border Guard forces caught a Palestinian youngster who had attempted to stab a soldier at a roadblock near the Shuafat refugee camp in northern Jerusalem. No one was injured in the incident.

    An investigation into the incident revealed the Palestinian was being searched at the roadblock when he whipped out a knife and attempted to stab one of the officers, who pursued to fire a shot into the air and chase the Palestinian. The suspect was eventually apprehended and taken in for questioning.

  • Now, ben david, I still dont agree with your point of view, but I’m glad to hear you now state that the stabbing was unjustifiable.

    and because you insist on projecting victmhood, isnt it more or less what we the jews have done? boohoo the holocaust, boohoo anti semitism, they’re oppressing us, we need a lobby, we’re a minority.

    How is it ok for jews to play the victim card but not gay jews? (which, if you had seen the parade was not the feeling at all anyway). And last time I check being gay was not, in and of it self a “value”, its a sexual orientation.

  • Wow. I am happy to hear that we have finally agreed on something. Taking it upon yourself to stab people you find disagreeable is a bad thing. This is good news for all thosde people i come across on the street still wearing trucker caps…

  • I moved to Israel precisely to build a Jewish identity not based on victimhood.

    And I have noted that it is the assimilated Jewish world that is pouring its money into Holocaust memorials rather than (dare I say it) Jewish Education – and this embrace of victimhood is directly related to (a) their basically enervated, nostalgic view of Judaism, and (b) their adoption of left-liberal ideas that all can be explained thru gender/race/class analysis, which implicitly posits that one side is The Victim.

    In contrast, a Jew who take Judaism, The Religion, seriously has many more positive hooks on which to hang their Jewish identity.

    You wrote:
    last time I checked being gay was not, in and of itself a “value”, but a sexual orientation.
    – – – – – – – – – –
    This is disingenuous.
    The normalcy of the gay orientation, and its causes, are still very much open to debate. And the recognition of gays and gay unions as equal and normal is still open to debate. These debates are most definitely and specifically moral debates.

    The arguments and judgements that the gays seek to avoid by wrapping themselves in the mantle of victimhood are most definitely “value” judgements.

  • I moved to Israel precisely to build a Jewish identity not based on victimhood.
    – – – – – – – – – –
    … or on minority status.

  • Ok, I appreciate the fact you came to Israel to not build an identity on victimhood, But then why all the whining about the oppressive Leftest govenment keeping the true believers down?

    recognition of gays as equal and normal is still a debate, yes, mostly to neo nazi parties. And by the way, you are aware that homosexuality occurs in nature too, right? Ask a zookeeper.

    And what Gay Unions? like the Gay Truckers union? is there a little gay Norma Rae too? Most places on policy do not and cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.

    And what exactly is the Moral problem you keep bringing up exactly?

  • The normalcy of gay orientation? Well, seeing as it’s been around for as long as humans have (and you can’t argue that, the Torah itself talks about it), I would say gay orientation is about as normal as something could get.

    And as far as its causes, I think most rational people would agree (of course, one must consider his audience) that seeing as it’s been around since the dawn of humanity, homosexuality is not caused by an evil alliance of leftists trying to corrupt your children into gayness. Unless that evil alliance is as old as humanity.

  • No Michael! Its all record companies trying to sell off old disco hits and broadway show tunes! They are the ones spreading the gayness disease.

  • Wait! No! That must be it! Everyone in Israel listens to ’80s music and clearly everybody in the ’80s from George Michael to Freddy Mercury to everybody in every hair band ever was gayer than a strawberry shortstack! That’s why gay Israelis are coming out of the woodwork to take Ben David’s children over to the pink side! Curse you, cheesy ’80s music! Curse youuuuuuu!

  • Murder, pedofilia, infidelity, prostitution, theft.

    All been around since the dawn of humanity.

    Moral?

    Layaleh – I am a Jew. I don’t determine what is normal or moral human (sexual) behavior based on what animals do. Again, fights to the death are a common feature of animal sexuality, as are herds serviced by a single male. Sound yummy?

    I also don’t decide my morality based on what the popular pose of the day is…. there is a morbid fascination in watching young blogmeisters diss Conservative Judaism while simultaneously trying to strike their own Jewlicious cultural compromise – must be funky enough to be cool, but Jewish enough to be non-aimless, fruity yet dry…

    … good luck, girl. When the Conservative Jews whose shortcomings you have identified with pinpoint accuracy were forging THEIR Western-Jewish cocktail, being a liberal freethinker meant standing beside Martin Luther King and all he represented.

    Now, it means standing beside RuPaul and all HE(?) represents.

    Simultaneously, the Judaism that “everybody” knew was moribund has flourished into glorious relevance and energy.

    May I suggest you pack a spool of sturdy thread as you set out on your path to funky Jewlicious cultural fusion – you will be splitting your pants often as these two cultural poles drift further apart…

  • Michael: thanks for rounding out the conversation by giving an example of the other major technique used by gays to avoid reasoned discussion of their pathological promiscuity: ridicule.

    It works very well on the young and weak who are (a) ignorant and (b) desperately concerned to mouth the popular opinions.

    Neither of which applies to me.

  • Of course it doesn’t totally apply, you’re not young. You are ig’nant though, pops. So you keep on having the strength of character and moral fortitude to hate entire groups of people for their imagined “pathological promiscuity” (I wonder why it threatens you so much), and the rest of us will keep on not obliquely justifying stabbings in the name of God.

  • Ben David…..
    How do you think MLK Jr. would have reacted to the stabbing? How do you think he would treat Gay people?

    This might give us some idea; This was said by Coretta Scott King, Mr. King’s widow

    “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,”

    You realize the way you are talking, if you were to turn the words around a little, you could soud just like a raging anti semite. It sounds like that that level of blind hatred. If thats not how you intend it, you should be careful how it comes across.

    My belief that Gays are legitimate people just like me and you comes from no desire to be hip and funky, but it does come from a belief that everyone was indeed created in Gods image that growing up Jewish taught me. My morality dictates that my fellow Jews are to be treated with love, but maybe that’s just the “popular pose of the day” and I’ve been brainwashed by RuPaul and the 80’s

    What two men or two women do behind closed doors is not a threat to me, my sexuality, my belief in God or anything else. If it is to you then I am sorry to hear that.

  • Ben David:
    So you’ve made a great case for why you shouldn’t be gay…. good on you!!!!

    Now explain why that means that the gay community can’t have a parade/protest like every other community in a democracy.

    Just ’cause you don’t like us doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to “freedom of expression”.

    You may not like what we say, but it is the duty of democracy to “defend to the death our right to say it”.

    SIDENOTE: So I was waiting for a bus and I saw these three guys who looked like a cross between eurotrash and 80’s culture… and yup… you guessed it, @ 3:00 am in downtown toronto there were the Israelis.

  • More victimology politics…

    Laya, my attitude to homosexuals is much more nuanced than that, as evidenced by my previous (long) posts here on the subject.

    The assertions that I am gripped by blind hate, and view gays as less than human, is basically putting words in my mouth – and is, again, an emotional argument swamping reasoned analysis and discussion.

    My compassion for homosexuals is the same compassion that thinking people have for drunks, drug addicts, or bulimics. Would your definition of “respect for all humanity” mean leaving these people to their self-destructive sinkholes?

    There is evidence of a genetic compenent to alchoholsm. Schizophrenia and depression are clearly genetically influenced. Would it then be “compassionate” to declare these afflictions ‘normal’ – and leave the sufferers to their own devices?

    Straights attend gay pride marches – and you can almost see them glow with self-righteous glory. How sophisticated and multi-culti we are! For younger folks, there is the added frisson of trashing received values.

    But what is it really like to be the kind of person who – in sequined g-string – pantomimes sex on top of a truck?

    What kind of life does that person go home to?

    The answer – from the gay community’s own data – is that most homosexuals live unsatisfying lives of compulsive promiscuity.

    It’s also clear – when we turn away from arguments based on emotional blackmail or the peer pressure of “everybody knows” – that most gays are suffering mental distress, as evidenced by rates of depression and substance abuse that are 4-5 times the rate in the general population.

    At this point the Victimology organ-grinders start their whining refrain about how these pathologies are a response to “prejudice”.

    Sorry – it is now a full generation after liberation, and gayness is not just tolerated, it is celebrated. Yet the pathological behavior yet remains.

    Laya – you are free to assert that none of this is your business.

    I am an adult and so I know that these behaviors DO impact the society at large.

    And I am a Jew – and so I believe that people feeling homosexual attractions are every bit as bound as I am to behave morally – Is that dehumanizing, or just inconvenient?

    My compassion for them is the same pragmatic, adult compassion that I feel for others caught in compulsive, self-destructive behavior.

    You haven’t yet explained how your laissez-faire attitude to human sexuality jibes with Judaism’s take on sexual morality. Good luck explaining how the Jewish G-d’s moral program stops at the door of your bedroom – or anyone else’s.

  • I didn’t see anyone in a sequined g-string pantomiming sex on top of a truck, what part of the parade was that guy in?

    You keep talking about Morality. I think we agree that everyone, straight or gay is obliged to act in a moral way. What does that mean to you, and why, by virtue of sexual orientation do you assume that Gays are not moral? Do they by their nature cheat in the market place? Do they steal? Murder? Lie compulsively? Stab people they don’t agree with?

    Yes, some gays live a promiscuous lifestyle. I’ve got news for you, so do some straight people.

    And by the way, do you happen to have any sources for your statistics?

    As I have said before, homosexuality is certainly an issue to be dealt with within the Torah community. And sexual morality is a big part of Judaism. But I will not demonize gays anymore than someone who does not keep taharat hamishpacha (you remember what the torah says about that right? cut off from his people…) I also refuse to define people based solely on their sexuality and assume that that encompasses all of who they are, what they believe and how they live their lives.

  • Laya, your post sounds grand – which is apt, since it’s largely grandstanding.

    You are largely swatting at a straw man of your own making. Read my posts carefully: there has been no blanket, bible-thumping denial of the humanity of those suffering from homosexual attractions.

    Again – you’re striking all the most popular poses, but not addressing what I’ve been saying.

    Now let’s munch on some weightless, melt-in-your-mouth cotton candy:

    You keep talking about Morality. I think we agree that everyone, straight or gay is obliged to act in a moral way. What does that mean to you, and why, by virtue of sexual orientation do you assume that Gays are not moral? Do they by their nature cheat in the market place? Do they steal? Murder? Lie compulsively? Stab people they don’t agree with?

    – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    uhhh, there’s this book called the Torah, that is the source of, like, most Jews’ ideas of what constitutes moral behavior. Have you heard of it?

    That code – unlike man-made, Western codes which were primarily developed to preserve individual liberty – casts morality in terms of living one’s entire life in G-d’s presence, including the most intimate family and communal aspects of life. They alll are part of a Jew’s notion of “morality”.

    …are you, like, SURE you haven’t heard about this before? Cause, like, it’s been sorta the BASIS for Western society’s ideas of morality for, like, a long time. I mean, like, a really long time. Ya know?

    And, I mean-I-respect-your-opinion-and-all, but the whole let’s-peel-off-sexual-behavior-and-not-subject-it-to-notions-of-morality thing is, well, fairly recent and not very Jewish. And, like, it also hasn’t been very good at delivering on its promises of human freedom and fulfillment -just like, in general? Ya know?

    Am I going to fast for you – you know, with the concept that sexual behavior is within the scope of moral judgement? Like, um, pedophilia and adultery?

    I know you’re all, like, modern and progressive and all, but – you remember adultery, don’t you?

    You want some time to chew that over – you know, that there are moral aspects to sexual behavior?

    …. Laya, kindly point out where I indicated that gay people are evil sub-humans that poison wells. Do you REALLY think that is the basis for my discussion of morality? Can you see what a straw man argument you flung up?

    Promiscuity vs. Committment is also a moral issue. It also is a valid issue from the purely secular perspective, since it impacts the stability and shape of the community. Which leads us to:

    Yes, some gays live a promiscuous lifestyle. I’ve got news for you, so do some straight people.
    And by the way, do you happen to have any sources for your statistics.
    – – – – – – – – – – – —
    I posted them previously, but to summarize:

    70-80 percent of heteros – including the most decadent sex-n-the-city types – will eventually wind up spending most of their adult years in committed relationships that last at least 5 years. The most voracious hetero “player” will have at most 10-12 sexual partners over their adult lives.

    In contrast, 80-90 percent of homosexuals will spend most of THEIR adult lives in a pattern of compulsive promiscuity. Specifically this means:

    – Upwards of 70 sexual partners, on average, in the 30 years between 20 and 50.

    – An inability to maintain relationships beyond the 18-24 month mark.

    – as age creeps up, a “fallback” to “committed” relationships that still largely accommodate the partner’s need for other sexual outlets.

    The most well-known sources for these statistics are large-scale studies conducted by the Gay Men’s Health Crisis and the Health Departments of cities with large gay populations.

    The data on the high rates of depression and substance abuse come from many studies sponsored by various health agencies – most recently and notably, a survey by the Dutch ministry of Health found the number of gays afflicted with depression and substance abuse barely dipped with the legalization of gay unions, and only a small fraction of gay couples have actually taken advantage of the law.

    This pattern repeats in Scandinavia and other places.

    Let’s end with a bit of irony, shall we?

    I also refuse to define people based solely on their sexuality and assume that that encompasses all of who they are, what they believe and how they live their lives.
    – – – – – – – – – – –
    … yet that is just what the gay rights movement does by elevating sexuality to an all-encompassing marker of identity.

    And again – you are attacking an attitude that I never expressed.

    Could you please address what I DID write about – specifically, how your laissez-faire, suddenly mystified approach to “morality” jibes with the Jewish tradition you so eloquently defend against cherry-picking conservative Jews like TM?

    Here’s how it’s gone:

    I’m a Victim!
    – and when that doesn’t convince:
    You’re a Brute for disagreeing with me!
    – and if that doesn’t shut them up:
    You’re rude and UNPOPULAR for