Ok, Muffti is going to bash Rabbi Ovadia for a minute or two. Knee jerkers, chill out and avert your eyes.

Apparently our man Ovadia Yosef has taken up comedy. Here are a couple of recent jokes:

It was God’s retribution. God does not shortchange anyone…He (Bush) perpetrated the expulsion (of Jews from Gaza). Now everyone is mad at him. This is his punishment for what he did to Gush Katif, and everyone else who did as he told them, their time will come, too.

As an encore, Yosef cracked a quick one liner:

“Cushim[black victims suffered because] they don’t study Torah.”

Those aren’t funny, you say? Well, maybe the humour is just too subtle, like in foreign films where it’s hard to tell where hte jokes are. Muffti is SURE they were jokes since weenie li’l appologist Shas official Tzvika Yacobsen explained that:

He [Yosef] has a special style he uses when he speaks to the people…He tells jokes that you may like, and may not like. When you just tell the joke, you are ignoring the connotation.”

Well, that makes sense. Kind of like that French Comedian Dieudonne M’Bala M’Bala who was recently acquitted of charges of anti-semitism. He said equally funny things, such as “Isra-Heil!” while running around dressed as an Orthodox Jew. Come to think of it, at least he’s actually employed as a comedian. ‘Special style’, eh? Muffti just remembered that ‘special’ can have many connotations…

Some previous special comic outbursts include suggesting the IDF annihilate all arabs with rockets, calling on God to strike down Sharon and explaining the deep mystery of why God allowed the holocaust by noting that the victims were all clearly reincarnations of sinners. The joke, however, is on Yosef because it turns out that Bush’s house is fine. His property is fine. Muffti guesses that while God doesn’t shortchange anyone, as Dan Savage notes, he “…is a notoriously bad shot.”

Rabbi O. Y., Muffti advises that you don’t quit your day job, whatever that may be.

Thanks to Ha’aretz

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  • Last time I tried to comment on this guy, a lot of people were very angry with me including our friend ck.

  • Speaking as someone who lives in New Orleans, I can testify that, if by “studying Torah” he means “reading and studying the Bible,” the so-called cushim are doing a lot better than the non-cushim. Or the Jews for that matter. Unless those Baptist churches every three feet are just storage sheds.

    Shas is funny. The Sephardim got tired of being screwed over by corrupt Ashkenazi-dominated parties, so they created their own corrupt Sephardi-dominated party to screw them over.

    But I do like Ovie’s cute little turban.

  • Why bother commenting?

    One day, you’ll realize that every word coming out of these great Rabbis was honey that you let spill on the ground when you could have eaten in ecstasy.

  • Josh Honey, many of these “great” Rabbis of yore and of present times could be bought and sold to the highest bidder. To think anything else would be almost as naive as you are.

  • Racist comments! Nonsensical explanations for natural events! Yes! More! More! Like honey! Please, Ovadia, give me more! I’m in ECSTASY!

    Mmm-mmmm, slurp it up. It’s gooood.

  • I thought he was more upset about the Mardi Gras where they perfected the breast flashing by hot women.
    I thought he had come out very forcefully for the Disengagement, due to his strong position that holding onto land is not worth the sacrifice. Thus, the whole post is falcicious.

  • You can dance if you want to, you can leave your friends behind. But if you want to bash Rabbis, go somewhere else, like stromfront or something where they like this kind of drivvel news. I mean seriously SO WHAT that Ovadia is a raving mad turban wearing dude in shades? Yeh he has some influence, but not on the pathetic rescue and recovery efforts initiated by the Bush Admin. Boy I am tired.

  • I hate to agree with an athiest, but Mufti has a point, and I am a bit sensitive to a man being told to write for Stormfront (on this site) for raising legitmate questions. Though I have no idea what the hell that non-sequitur was about the French comedian. What is with you guys with the whole French/French-Canadian thing? I pull punches on this obsession of yours because it’s too easy a target and I’m not a bully, and don’t like to insult someone for coming from a different place, not because you make a damn bit of sense.

    I Don’t know why Rabbi O.Y. has embraced activist fundamentalism, but he was Chief Rabbi of Israel.

    Never trust a Zionist Rabbi.

    No offense, of course. I may be non-Zionist, but I’m not anti-Sephardic. Cool, CK?

  • I love his turban. I want a nice blue turban.
    David Kelsey: Some are question are legitimate, some aren’t. You are also the person who talks seriously of the concept of a jew tax.

  • errr…thanks, Kelsey, Muffti guesses. The french thing was just supposed to be an analogy to poke fun at the suggestion that really Rabbi O.Y.’s comments were jokes that we aren’t retelling well. Granted, it was a bit of a far reaching analogy but this ain’t a philosophy paper. As for non-sequitors, though, you managed to go from nothing your agreement with an atheist to talking about the french briefly to, well, talking about yourself and your not being a bully. Talk about disconnects. Oh well. At least we are glad you aren’t anti-sephardic.

    Alter-Kaker, re-read the warning at the top of the post.

  • Again…,

    We can’t know specifically why a specific action happened. We do know in general that punishment does come for people’s actions. We also know that the punishment often comes ‘measure for measure’. In addition we are warned to look into our deeds when tragedy strikes and not to be stubborn and say ‘let us continue in our old ways because everything is just due to chance.’
    We also know that if we ignore tragedies and say everything is chance and we therefore refuse to change- it will only invite further more serious tragedies…

    In this case R’ Yosef apparently feels that what happened in Israel was an act against the Jewish people with America holding a level of blame. He also sees the similarity of people being forced out of their homes and bused to other communities. He also apparently notes the relative proximity of the two events.

    He therefore gives what he believes to be a very good possibility for the tragedy.

  • That’s interesting, Schmo, but is there no such thing as a natural disaster that is simply a natural disaster rather than a punishment? Or is it legitimate to say that everything bad that happens is a punishment?

    Muffti finds the question interesting because of the following possibility: say astronomers could determine that in 100 years, a comet would hit the earth that would kill 20% of it’s population. Could we then conclude reliably that people were going to do a lot of sinning in the next 100 years?

    Otherwise, what is the justification for determining that any particular disaster is a ‘punishment’ rather than just part of the workings of nature?

  • Rebecca,

    Loved how J.B. “The Rav” Soloveitchik was referenced. It just goes to show how no existing Rabbi is of his stature.

  • Rav Ovadiah is a Talmudic genius, and I greatly respect his halachic discourses and rulings.

    When it comes to politics – he’s basically Al Sharpton with a turban. Shas is based entirely on victimology-based “populism”.

  • And, of course, if every bad event is a result of somebody’s sinning, one could also ask what the Gaza settlers did to deserve expulsion in the first place. Right?

  • And another thing. Let’s make the wild and baseless assumption that Katrina was God’s punishment for America supporting disengagement. So then, if America does teshuva and supports to reestablishment of settlement in Gaza, does that mean God will change the weather patterns of our fair planet so that warm-air depressions cease forming out in the Atlantic and turning into hurricanes? Or will His Divine Hand just send them all at Cuba, which of course was closely allied with the Soviet Union, the place where Yiddishkeit goes to die? Or maybe they’ll all hit Mexico, because hey, they deserve it, they don’t study Torah. Or maybe Jamaica. God hates those ganja-smoking Rastafarian idol worshippers. But certainly, no hurricane will ever touch American shores again. Allah hu akbar!

  • Black folk don’t know their Torah, eh?

    Someone tell the rabbi that black folks beat most white folks hands-down in that department.

  • But Shmo Rav Ovadiah has come out against holding on to these territories.
    He also has paskened that those in Galus should move to Israel even if their parents forbid it.

  • Muffti,

    Fair question.
    This is how it works in my understanding:

    Things happen according to the laws of nature as they have been established. Sometimes an event might have been put into motion from the beginning sometimes it might have been put into motion on purpose relatively recently for a reason.

    In either case without any intervention those events will happen. Nevertheless it can be stopped by the same One who is allowing the natural disaster to happen according to His laws.

    Will He stop it? Maybe yes maybe no. Why should he stop it isn’t it following His laws that He commanded the world to follow from the very beginning?

    That is the meaning of
    Genesis 48 “15 And he blessed Joseph, and said: ‘The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath been my shepherd all my life long unto this day, 16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil…”

    –ie there were many evils that were headed to Jacob that would have and should have befallen him. He was duped and barelly escaped lavan who later chased him down, He fought with the assailant who made him limp, He was challenged by Esau and his armed men, he lost Josef for many years…but G-d intervened on his behalf and didn’t let those evils succeed.

    That is why they tell us ‘you don’t rely on a miracle…’- because who are you that you feel so great that a miracle should be performed for you?

    If a comet is headed for earth – it is possible for it to be stopped but it might not be unless there was some reason for such an intervention.

  • I neglected to metion that the Ibn Ezra is the one who explains the verse with Jacob being saved from all evil in my last comment.

    I suggest studying the Ibn Ezra he lived about 1,000 years ago.

  • Thanks for the explanation, Schmo. Muffti knows who Ibn Ezra is 🙂

  • TM – I was referring to Kelsey’s linking to the entry on the unorthdoxjew blog about the “Kosher Konspiracy.” If you look down in the comments, someone provides a link to a Voz de Aztlan piece that reads exactly the same, word for word. And La Voz is about as racist and anti-Semitic as they come.

  • Geoff,
    Do you really find it helpful to simply dismiss an idea in its entirety because its author is racist or anti-Semitic?

    I know that’s popular to do so, but I just don’t by it.

  • And, of course, the same thing is also on Snopes, but apparently Kelsey doesn’t put stock in Snopes. They must be on the evil Jew tax bandwagon. Lucky for us that Kelsey is on the case.

  • Oh, I agree, there certainly is abuse and shady business practices within the kashrut industry, as with every other industry, and they should be solved.

    However, that is not what the article is alleging. This article isn’t about abuses within the kashrut industry, it’s about digging up evidence of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy for blackmail. The articles alleges that kosher certification in general is a scam played on businesses by world Jewry, because if companies don’t put hekhshers on a product, every Jew in the world won’t buy their product. This is false. Most American Jews don’t really give a damn whether their bread or cereal or whatever has a heksher. You know that, I know that, and theoretically Un-Orthodox Jew knows that, which is why it’s a total mystery as to why he reprints articles that are less about kashrut abuses and more about encouraging anti-Jewish thought and behavior.

    So if you or your buddies want to bring up genuine issues and concerns about kashrut, please, do it. But you’re going to have to try harder than reproducing widely distributed Jew-bashing articles.

  • Michael,

    Obvously UO does not subscribe to a ZOG idea of conspiracy. Money and profit is at the root of any and all these abuses, at least in “corporate” kashrut.

  • Geoff, thanks for the explanation. I went to visit that lovely site because I had forgotten all about it. Our friend Kelsey is a real winner. I could tell by finding gems such as:

    “The practice called “metzitzah b’peh” by Jews is routinely practiced on Jewish baby boys and may explain their sexual dysfunctions later in adult life. Many adult male Jews are “mother fixated” and exhibit a preponderance of homosexual and feminine characteristics. They are being “shocked” out of their masculinity as infants by the ancient and bizarre practices of Jewish Rabbis. It is not yet known what percentage of Jewish males go through the horror.”

    The “article” didn’t mention whether the rabbi who may have transmitted the Herpes virus was a Zionist or not. I fear that if he’s not a Zionist, Kelsey will have to tell us to also never trust a non-Zionist rabbi.

  • I have certainly criticized metzizah, but those words aren’t mine. You are confusing another’s comments for mine.

    Link please?

  • Kelsey, you wrote, “Never trust a Zionist rabbi.”

    The other stuff is from that site Geoff to which Geoff was referring. That’s the same source that your “black hat” site was using to make its and your idiotic Jew tax claims.

    How exactly did you turn out like this Kelsey? Did your parents play endless recordings of Chomsky riffing on Israel when you were a baby? Did they plant books by Norman Finkelstein in your bathroom for casual reading?

  • Middle,

    I guess we all have our paths, some less travelled than others. In fact, I am, by general American standards, quite pro-Israel, even if I dispute that the state has solved many of the problems of world Jewry that it claimed it would, or even more absurdly, has. Where I diverge from many American or (apparently) Canadian Jews is simply that I don’t believe that what is good for Israel is good for America. Rather, I believe something much less happy. At least, it makes me unhappy.

    In terms of religious Zionism, that might be my Jewish quiescent influence, which denies that the state has messianic qualities.

    As good a time as any:


    As you alluded to, I attacked you once over the Jew Tax thing thinking that you and the Middle were on the same page. While we may not see eye to eye on very much as Jewlicious authors tend to have very different perspectives than my own, it is never the less varied, and one poster is not all posters, something I did not understand, as I did not understand the dynamics of a group blog.

    That was wrong of me – and I am sorry, Michael.

  • Middle,

    Perhaps their is some common ground between us yet. We might agree there are problems in the kashrut industry, but disagree on what they are, and what they mean.

    Additionally, we might also both disagree with the idea that there is a conspiracy to force gentiles to keep kosher.

    After all, the kashrut industry is not like the disproportionate Jewish role in OBGYN specifically and the medical industry generally who advocate routine male circumcision (a highly profitable 1/2 a billion dollar industry) for gentiles based on our own specific cultural and religious preferences while pretending they are sound medical ones, right? 😉

  • Oy. Sometimes it’s just embarrassing being a Torah Jew.
    Rabbis -even great ones- are only human, and just like there’s a difference between book-smarts and street-smarts, some rabbis are great Talmidei Chachamim but lack other kinds of sense.

  • Kelsey: $500 million a year to rid the world of the scourge of smegma is money very well spent I say.

  • CK,

    We should not be making those decisions for people. Bad, bad feelings could arise if it is felt Jews mislead them based on skewed science.

    Perceptions are changing on this particular form of prophylactic care. We are too visible and publicly insistent that circumcision is fun and appropriate for everyone.

  • Middle,

    Do you really deny Jews had and have a major part in promoting routine male circumcision? Is that your claim?

    Do you also deny that Jews are disproportionately represented in the medical field? Would that be over-the-top for you?

    What about the idea that Jews have a religious and cultural bias against the foreskin? Is that also a “conspiracy theory?” I must have pulled that one off stromfront or something, right?

  • Aw man – most Jewish Doctors are secular and I doubt give a rat’s ass about God’s covenant with Abraham, which only applies to Jews anyways. I don’t give a shit if Gordon Goy’s willy is snipped or not. There is absolutely no religious imperative upon Jews to rid the world of foreskins. No offense Dave but you’re theory holds no water.

    Having said all that, I stand by the notion that foreskins are gross, smegma is grosser and I would have been really pissed at my parents for not snipping my willy when i was a babe as doing so as an adult would hurt like hell. Besides, it’s the parents job to make those decisions for their children. Freedom of choice does not exist for children, plain and simple.

  • Kelsey, you moron, you really do belong on Stormfront with your idiotic Jewish conspiracy theories.

    You’re a history major, right? Why don’t you do some of that history research you do so well and tell us all how frequently Jewish doctors were permitted to practice in US hospitals that weren’t specifically Jewish in the first half of the 20th Century. Here’s a hint: there’s a Mount Sinai or Jewish-based hospital in most fair-sized American cities.

    After you figure that one out, you can talk to me about conspiracies and Jews making non-Jews circumcize. I can’t believe I’m actually engaging in this dialogue with you. You’re a moron, Kelsey.

    I feel, ugh, as if I were covered in smegma.

  • CK,

    The rate for Jewish circ is very high – perhaps there is no higher. It is cultural, not only religious, and cultural and asthetic axioms we take for granted are not axioms we should push on gentiles. Not all gentiles will have your reaction and gratitude to having been circumcized.

    Some are very, very angry.

    “Gross” is not a medical determination. Secular Jewish doctors need to understand they may have a cultural bias, and be careful not to incorporate that inyo their pro vs. con medical advice to gentile parents.

    The circ rate has dropped from a high of 90% to a mere 60% in the U.S., by far and away the highest in the Anglo world. It remains strongest in the northeast corridor.

    Go figure.

  • Middle,

    Circ peaked in the U.S. in 1971. Jews were practicing medicine well beyond the Jewish hospitals you mentioned.

    For the record, I am not saying they were the only ones promoting this thing. There were fundamentalist Christians as well.

    Today, however, we are the most powerful and unified, and all too visible ethnic defenders of routine male circumcision in the U.S.

  • Kelsey, you’re a moron.

    The funny thing is that you promote the very anger you fear with your idiotic conspiracies.

    Shabbat shalom all.

  • Again, blaming Jews for high rates of non-Jewish circumcision is just plain dumb. What’s curious is how in areas of Africa devatstated by AIDS, the rate of infection amongst circumcised Christian Africans is significantly lower than their non-circumcised neighbours. Jewish conspiracy? Yeah, loads of Jewish doctors in Mogadishu. Yup. Uh huh. OK. Enough of this as the sabbath queen beckons!

  • Middle,

    I don’t understand which part of what I said you disagree with, only with the general concept, not the specific examples I gave. I prefer we don’t push things we have no business pushing, and which may very well lead to tremendous resentment. I feel we are overextended as is, with the whole Middle East thing.

    I fear, and you are correct about that, a domestic rage as well as one based on foreign policy resentments.

    I hear Jews claim we have no hand in routine male cirucmcision, and out of the other side of their mouths, insist that routine circumcision is a good thing for all.

    Which one are you saying, middle?

    You can’t have it both ways.

  • Kelsey, I don’t know what more to do. I’ve told you that I think your opinions are idiotic and that you’re a moron. I don’t want to engage in this conversation. You know why? Because it is idiotic. The fact that you bring up these retarded topics that prevail on Internet sites where people have, uh, difficulties with Jews, doesn’t mean they are actual issues.

    In this “discussion,” you have brought up the following false issues: a “Jew tax”; untrustworthiness of all rabbis who are Zionists; cabal of Jews controlling circumcision in a country with 98% non-Jews.

    In addition, you buttressed a point by unapologetically providing a source from a racist site, and rudely attacked me by telling me to go filter my water after I politely called you a moron.

    In the past you’ve made assertions about Jewish culpability in Poland of pre and post-WWII to show solidarity and understanding with the “pain” the Poles suffered under the Jewish yoke. You’ve also attacked the Jewish community for AIPAC and the supposed “spy” affair, not to mention many Jewish groups’ support for Israel.

    I mean, how did you get to these wild conspiracy fantasies? Have you lost your mind?

    You’ll understand if I consider you no different than a Stormfronter when I consider your idiotic positions. And I think it’s not only foolish to debate your idiotic topics, it actually forces people to consider them as another valid point of argument and therefore as valid as the argument crushing them.

    Well, they aren’t valid and I won’t treat them as such. It’s like debating whether the Holocaust happened. Why would I do it, because some moron wants me to so that his ideas get some airplay? If he’s uneducated, let him go get an education.

    Why, on Jewlicious of all places, would I debate a FUCKING WHITE SUPREMACIST invented issue of a “Jew tax?” Because you’re a moron and read a source from some ridiculous extremist Left wing site with a clear antisemitic agenda? Are we upsetting those people by existing as Jews so that I have to address their crazy, ignorant accusations because they scare you and you believe their tripe? Why would I answer a topic raised on numerous ANTISEMITIC sites blaming “Jews” for a societal medical preference? Because you’ve read a few articles that have influenced your self-hating mind?

    Here is my contribution to your education: there isn’t a “Jew tax”; the vast majority of rabbis who are Zionists are trustworthy and very good people; Jews as individuals and as a group have little influence on the preponderance of circumcisions in this society and in fact there are numerous Jews who have come out against circumcision; Jews did nothing in Poland to deserve what happened to them before, during and after the war; AIPAC is a very solid friend of America’s; Jewish support in America of the Jewish state does not preclude greater loyalty to the US and never has; and most important, Jews are not monolithic in any way, shape or form.

    That’s right, Kelsey, all of those positions and beliefs of yours are WRONG.

    Flat out wrong.

    Now I’ve done you a HUGE service by pointing out the truths you so assiduously wish to avoid. However, I want you to know that I expect no thanks! It’s free information for you to digest.

    And here’s some more: if you still can’t see the truth for what it is and want an audience that will appreciate your screwball points of view, go to Stormfront, tell then you’re Jewish and post the same crap you post here. They’ll be very receptive, I’m sure. In fact, I know they’ll lap it up, love you for it and call you a “GOOD JEW.”

    Isn’t that what you want? For others who aren’t Jewish to think well of you? Sure it is.

    Aaaah, that felt good. My mitzvah for the day was helping Kelsey find a new neighborhood, and friends who will truly appreciate him.

  • Middle,

    I never said Jews in Poland deserved what happened – that’s rediculous, and you know it. Check with your local former Chief Zionist Rabbi of Israel for reasons why they deserved what happened – I have none, but he’s got ’em all. I indeed said we were disproportionately communist, an issue that Poles did and would bring up in “dialogue”, something I saw no value in having, but that if we are to have it, indeed we should be aware of it, as it will inevitably be raised.

    As for the circissue, as CK pointed out, this is hardly unique to Jews, but is common with many tribal peoples originating from the middle east and Africa. But the U.S. hospitals, particularly those on the north east corridor, are not replete with Somalian doctors, they are with Jews.

    I think there is confusion in the Jewish community that what is good for Israel is good for America. This can be seen in all too common Jewish denial of the role that America’s support for Israel played in Bin Laden’s own explanation for 9/11 and beyond. In fact, it was one of three reasons given by him at the time, and he underscored the point with the suicide bombing of a synagogue in Tunisia in case in wasn’t crystal clear already.

    What the hell are we supposed to do with that, Middle? Tell Bin Laden and his millions (perhaps much, much more) that this isn’t a reason he did such things – he’s crazy to suggest that’s partially why did them and he is an anti-semite for suggesting it is and he should write for Stormfront?

    And don’t you dare pretend you care about this country the same way those of us who have lived here for (on one side, five) generations and whose ancestors were given refuge from incredible persecution and poverty do. You are Canadian, Middle. And that’s okay, but the only thing “American” you have pride about is a clothing line run by a sexually deviant Canadian. You will not disrespect my understandably greater concern for the U.S. as anti-semitic. It was New York that took the hits, Middle. Down the street from me. I smelled the destrution. It did not happen in Montreal. No one cares about Montreal. Not even Al Qaida cares about Montreal. So walk in peace and serenity past your lone English bookstore with the French awning, but don’t you dare tell me not to worry about the costs of a pro-Israel policy. These costs are horribly real, Middle – and I may not have any answers, but you will not deligitimize the question.

    It has been over two thousand years since the great Yochanan Ben Zakkai eluded the Zeaolots by feigning death. I see the same types now screaming that Gaza was a “holocaust” and Sharon and Israeli soldiers are “nazis” and it seems that in our two thousand years of exile, we have learned nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    Middle – I believe that Judasim is, at its core, quiescent – more like the B’nai Torah without the fundamentalism, less like either the Settler “the Medina is the beginning of the “Geuala”, and less like the Left’s “Tikkun Olam” – let’s stick our big noses in every possible social revolution we can think of and declare it our issue.

    We aren’t Buddhists or anything that extreme, put our focus should be, or at least it has traditionally been, on how we can improve, not just how the world needs to improve for us.

    This is actually the root of our antagonism, Middle, and the fact that you may have liberal and right-wing influences does not change the fact that you are solidly, even radically, in the activist camp, and I am more in the quiescent one. I am more likely to be interested in what Jews have done wrong, and you are much less likely to be interested in that.

    On some level, I am typically more interested in how Jews are being the oppressor rather than the oppressed, even if the latter is much, much more prevalent, as that is what is within my daled amos, and the community I am more responsible for in my own small way.

  • Michael writes: Speaking as someone who lives in New Orleans, I can testify that, if by “studying Torah” he means “reading and studying the Bible,” the so-called cushim are doing a lot better than the non-cushim.

    But without Rashi, man, without Rashi!

  • The root of our antagonism, Kelsey, is that you subscribe to bullshit propagated by white supremacists and others who have agendas against Jews.

    And don’t you dare pretend you care about this country the same way those of us who have lived here for (on one side, five) generations and whose ancestors were given refuge from incredible persecution and poverty do. You are Canadian, Middle. And that’s okay, but the only thing “American” you have pride about is a clothing line run by a sexually deviant Canadian. You will not disrespect my understandably greater concern for the U.S. as anti-semitic. It was New York that took the hits, Middle. Down the street from me. I smelled the destrution. It did not happen in Montreal. No one cares about Montreal. Not even Al Qaida cares about Montreal. So walk in peace and serenity past your lone English bookstore with the French awning, but don’t you dare tell me not to worry about the costs of a pro-Israel policy. These costs are horribly real, Middle – and I may not have any answers, but you will not deligitimize the question.

    Um, in the past you wrote, I am saying, looking back, perhaps we were not Poles or Germans, but unwanted guests, and should have been behaving in less than a revolutionary manner.

    Now you are giving a speech about how you’re not a guest here…

    I live here in the US, and have done so for almost half my life now. Considering my age, that means that both of us have spent about the same amount of time here. I live in a city that could very well be a target of large scale terrorism. So cut out the silliness about your superior loyalty and concerns. I live here and unlike you, have a family and their safety to worry about.

    The question of US support for Israel is a legitimate one. It’s just that you always posit it with respect to some Jewish cabal manipulating policy. Hmmm, where do I usually hear and read that crap?

    There are many reasons for US support of Israel, including numerous strategic ones. In case you don’t recall, prior to 1964, the US tried mightily to befriend Arab nations while keeping a distance from Israel. That changed because the Arab states rejected US approaches while Israel courted and supported the US. Israel was also a significant strategic asset during the Cold War, and remains one now as a solid democratic core in an area with no democracies and the lifeblood of this nation, oil.

    Some people, particularly on the sites where you get your ideas, focus on Bin Laden or Iraq and blame Israel. It’s convenient, and it’s not surprising to see you parroting them. But Iraq is about oil and Bin Laden, who is primarily focused on Saudi Arabia, is about oil. In fact, the Middle East is about oil, and that is the key reason the US is as invested as it is over there. To remind you, we also support Mubarak’s regime economically, diplomatically and politically. His regime has crushed the Muslim Brotherhood – essentially Bin Laden’s religious kin – and yet Bin Laden mentions the Palestinians and not the Egyptians. Hmmmmm….maybe somebody is trying to manipulate public opinion by not speaking the truth? Or perhaps somebody has skewed ideas about who may live in a place and who may not. Does that mean the US should change its policies? Of course not.

    You’re not being quiescent, you’re being an idiot. Your greatest fear is the anger of non-Jews that could be directed at Jews. Yet you then espouse and argue for ridiculous conspiracy theories that blame Jews. You talk about Jews as “oppressors.” About how your key concern is what “Jews have done wrong.” You talk about Jews as seeking only to have the world improve for them. You talk about “Jew tax” and cabals.

    Really, it’s so idiotic, Kelsey. all you have proven is that you really are to a very significant degree influenced by the ideas of people who hate Jews. Grow up.

  • Shit middle. I’m still tryina catch me breath here. How about after this you two meet up and play some Rock, Paper, Scissors? Eh? Best out of three?

  • You are grasping at straws mixed with cow doo doo. I never claimed Bin Laden wasn’t trying to “manipulate” public opinion or policy. He most certainly is, and he has succeeded. Please see those (now) empty Saudi bases he pointed the finger at.

    What the hell are you talking about by saying Bin Laden was not focused on Israel as well as Saudi Arabia? Did you not read his transcript? Did you not see his tapes? Do you really seek to deny that he and many, many, of his sympathizers do not care about the Israeli-Palestinian (read Jewish vs. Muslim) conflict? That is as absurd as the idiots who claim the CIA or Mossad was behind 9/11. Are you claiming this part of his speeches were a forgery like they claim the whole things was?

    I NEVER blamed Iraq on Israel. I do, however, see critical Jewish Neocon support for the invasion of Iraq as tied to and at least partially (mostly) inspired by their support for Israel. I think it was a strategic mistake, even from a Zionist perspective. I think many Israelis understood that which the Neocons did not, which would explain the massive anti-war protest in Tel Aviv prior to the invasion. Less about self-hatred, more about self-preservation.

    I am not going to claim I don’t fear the anger of non-Jews, but I also fear the Jewish community doing the wrong thing. I don’t understand why you aren’t at least sensitive to the latter.

  • Oh, and a little American history lesson for you, Middle, since apparently it isn’t taught at the Day Schools in Montreal, which would explain why you got it wrong.

    You wrote,

    “In case you don’t recall, prior to 1964, the US tried mightily to befriend Arab nations while keeping a distance from Israel”

    Not accurate. In fact, Truman, who was a bit prior to 1964 – and was in fact, quite pro-Israel in his policy, a fact the Arabs did not miss.

    Eisenhower’s (he was the president after Truman)relationship was indeed more “distant,” but hardly anti-Israel, except when they tried to take over the Suez.

    And the pro-Israel focus indeed returned, but under Kennedy, who wanted to reward Jewish voters for their support, not just because of being rebuffed by some of the arab nations. Kennedy was elceted in 1960, not 1964.

  • I don’t think Kelsey is Jewish.

    Anyone who can refer to Jews not in the first person is not Jewish.

    Quote from comment 60 (there are others like it):

    Kelsey: “I hear Jews claim we have no hand in routine male cirucmcision, and out of the other side of their mouths, insist that routine circumcision is a good thing for all.”

    -so TM recognize that you are talking to a non-Jewish Jew Hater and act accordingly:

    If he stays online answer his points directly and then ignore him.

    If you meet him in the street knock his teeth out.

  • Kelsey, I thought you study history. Why don’t you go and check what the US, under Kennedy, was doing in the early ’60s to support potential Arab allies. You will learn, for example, that the US provided the majority of the wheat the Egyptians required during the first couple of years of his administration. The US did this with the intention of developing strategic alliances with Arab nations. Israel was ignored, as they had been in the previous two administrations. The Arabs, however, then turned around and allied themselves with the Russians. The US, seeking its own ally, turned to Israel.

    Furthermore, you will learn that throughout Israel’s early years, the US was not a great friend to Israel. The relationship really only bloomed in the early 70s.

    As for Bin Laden, I’m not sure what is unclear to you. He began his attacks and his planning as a direct result of US presence on Saudi soil. Our presence evolved from the Iraqi takeover of Kuwait and US strategic planning for the potential of losing its ally and key oil supplier, Saudi Arabia. His interest in Israel is for media purposes and to receive more support from the people on the street. For comparison, consider that in his recent communication from prison, Saddam Hussein also used the Palestinians as a rallying cry.

    The rest of your info, about the Neocons, etc., is simply too boring and reminds me, again, of the same sources you always use and which find Jewish conspiracies everywhere.

  • Hey Kelsey, all this time I thought you were 20 years old. Turns out you’re 35 and not a student. My god, you don’t even have the excuse of youth and inexperience on which to fall back.

  • I don’t have patience to read through all these posts, but I get a good laugh out of counting how many times themiddle calls Kelsey a moron. 🙂 Thanks for the entertainment. btw, Nine times so far in this discussion, and counting…

  • Middle,

    Are you kidding? There would be no Israel if Truman had not agreed. None. Nada. Gornisht (that means Kloom). His decision was a dramatic reversal to what Roosevelt had promised the Saudis, was highly controversial, and attempts were made to undermine his decision at every turn. But he was the leader of the last empire standing, and the U.N. looked at that a bit differently back then. What else do you want? Israel wasn’t a reality then. He, in the end, made it one.

    Kennedy reversed Eisenhower’s arms embargo. This was the early 60’s.

    Johnson gave the go ahead for Israel to have nuclear Arms.

    So what are you talking about? Early seventies before the “relationship bloomed?!?” Day one!

    Yes, presidents attempted to also have there Cold War cake and eat it too = they still do without the Cold War. As you noted, there was and is oil there. That’s called diplomacy, Middle. Don’t run an empire without it.

    Do you really think George H.W. Bush was more pro-Israel than, say, Johnson? Sheer Nonsense.

    And you are bringing proof of Bin Laden from Saddam Hussein? They aren’t, in fact, the same people. You neo-cons tried that already. That sh-t didn’t add up then, and it won’t now. If anyone believes that nonsense, I have a big pile of WMD to sell you.

    Bin Laden stated why he attacked the U.S. Why should I trust your interpretation over his own words? Why does the Palestinian issue motivate the Arab street, Middle, including rage against the U.S.? Because we are in a religious war with the Muslims, and the U.S. is and has been a critical backer FROM DAY 1, even if not to your satisfaction, certainly to their intense dissatisfaction.

  • TM I’m going to take my own advice and answer Kelsey’s stupidity and Jew-hatred once for your sake TM not because I care what this kelsey piece of dirt thinks.

    I would strongly suggest that you not get upset by what Jew-haters say because then all your days will be spent being upset.

    1. The US and every country acts only in their own self-interest. They are not friends with any country the way people are friends.

    2. In 48′ the US was not sure whether or not to ‘recognize’ Israel in the first place. The question was whether such a state would help or hurt the US in the cold war with Russia. Many thought Jewish ‘communists’ would make another communist state. In the end they recognized Israel since it would be more of an ally in the democratic sense.

    All other decisions such as fighting the war in Iraq and whether or not to push Israel to give land away is directly attributable to America thinking in its own self-interest. America demands Israel damage itself by giving land in order to find favor in eyes of the arabs so that America can fight the war on terror with the arab countries’ help. (Will it really help? Of course not. Nevertheless thats how they see it.)

    Thats is the answer simple and to the point.

    All the other Jew-hatred such as his attack on circumsision and Kosher the only answer is to knock out all his teeth.

  • In addition to what Schmo said above, I’d like to point out that the conflict is not religious.

  • Maybe somebody should tell Kelsey that only two Jewlicious writers are Canadian, and one lives in the US (Muffti) and one is about to move to Israel (ck). I’m afraid the rest of us are all Americans.

    So, um, this weird “You can’t feel my 9/11 pain, you sinister Canadians!” argument isn’t working so well.

  • This Kelsey person, assuming that he is actually Jewish (I’m not really sure of this), is obviously spiritually a gollus Yid. His basic position is that Jews should mind their own business so as not to draw attention to themselves and thereby make their gentile masters angry at them. All of his arguments flow from this basic premise.

    Zionism and everything associated with it is, essentially, a rejection of this basic mindset. If one is even slightly Zionistic, in the sense that one feels that Jews have rights other than an obligation to kowtow to the goyim and bend over and grab our ankles when it is necessary, it is hopeless to discuss these issues with such a person. Don’t lose sight of the forest and argue over individual trees.

    The US and the UN did not “give” Israel to the Jews. The Jews secured israel with their blood, regardless of any permission, or lack thereof, from the goyim. There would certainly have been a war with the Arabs in any case no matter how the UN voted, and Israel probbaly would have won anyway. Official recognition would have flowed from that in any case. The US recognized Israel so as not to “lose” it to the Soviets.

    And the idea that the Jews are somehow “oppressors” of the goyim, and that this is what we should be concerned about, is just, well, sick and pathetic.

    The Jews are about 2% of the population of the US and something like .00000 whatever % of the world population. The idea that 6 billion people can be oppressed by what amounts to a thimbleful of people is the product of a sick mind, Jewish or not.

  • Correction! (must be the motzei shabbes b’samim).

    CK, you’re going where?

    That is a brave and noble thing, and particularly admirable considering it’s consistency with your belief system.

    Are you making a full fledged Aliyah? Don’t take the oleh rights until you’re married!!

    Did you write about this? What will you do there in addition to Jewlicious?

    Well, good luck to you, sir. I wish you well.

  • Middle,

    With all due respect, you really are a Zionist thug. Some would call that Neocon, but that would suggest a free market system you could give two hoots about.

    A bit off the main issue, a distraction, that economic stuff, wouldn’t you agree? Of course you would.

    You have built an appropriate, loyal fan club, haven’t you? And no, I’m not talking about “Yitz.”

    Wanna see a real Jewish Fascist? Look into the adoring eyes some of your most devoted followers. And my oh my, they sure do love their Middle. Or TM, as they say.


    Well, Birds of a feather flock together.

    Happy 9/11, Middle.

    No matter what passport you are currently carrying.

  • Memo
    To: Kelsey and Middle
    Re: Rooms Available

    The midwest office of Jewlicious wants to remind you that, should you wish to get a room to continue this lovefest in private, such rooms are available at hotels across the country…

  • Hello Bangladesh!! (How many meals have been eaten by children whose parents told them to eat because kids in Bangladesh were starving?)

    Hey Esther, I don’t share rooms with morons.

    Kelsey, calling me a “neocon” just proves what an idiot you are. If by calling me a thug you mean to say it’s thuggish not to let you run free with the garbage you’ve been posting, then consider me a thug.

    If I’m not mistaken, you have your own blog and Mobi’s blog to post this crap? Right? And I generously suggested you go to Stormfront and find new friends there, haven’t I? Best of luck to you there! And of course, you are welcome to visit us anytime, especially because I rarely get to call others here mor…oh you know.

  • Middle,

    You can’t claim to be the big bad-ass defender of the Jewish people AND stay anonymous.

    What are you afraid of, tough talking guy?

  • I don’t understand the issue with Middle’s anonymity. I mean, certainly he has his reasons, and I don’t see how knowing one’s name, address, phone number, blood type and number of fillings would either add or detract to the strength of their arguments.

  • Michael,

    In a perfect world of perfect people, you would be correct. However, most of us, I would assert even the Great Lion of Zion “The Middle” himself, do in fact behave differently when we know our words will reflect on us after they are written.

    For instance – I have only seen suggestions and even threats of violence coming from anonymous posters on this site. So too there is a disparity between anonymous and identified for other less violent but still anti-social behaviors.

    And then of course, there is the just being a pu–y issue.

  • Speaking as someone who gave away far too much information about her identity, let me just warn fellow posters that revealing details on the internet that others to guess where you work and live is foolish and dangerous. It can lead to creeps making threats against you that are creepy. Esther, Laya & Michael…you should start thinking of pen names and it’s not being a pussy, it’s being smart.

  • Middle,

    I hardly meant to suggest they are mutually exclusive. Take yourself, for example.

    But I didn’t answer your question in #83. I was remiss. I wll do so now, okay?

    You, The Middle, are a Zionist thug because:

    1) You have no gratitude to Harry Truman, (or others who helped the Jewish people) but cynically dismiss him as “distant” and “not a great friend” despite all he did. All he did includes fighting (yes, Middle, there was a fight) for the establishment of the new Jewish state. Perhaps you feel it’s okay to dismiss him so because he wrote not so flattering things in his diary about Jews?

    It doesn’t matter, Middle. We as Jews still owe him gratitude. Moshe (excuse me for bringing a Biblical reference prior to the 1st Commonwealth) did not hit the river, because it saved him as an infant. Gratitude is important in Judaism, Middle, but you give him none, because you are a Zionist thug.

    2) 9/11 – The U.S. took a hit 5 years ago today (and others before and after) in part because of her support for Israel. Instead of the compassion or concern you should have about this, particularly since you even lived here yourself for the last five minutes or so, you deny that much needed support had anything to do with the anger and destruction it incurred. Oh no, it was only about Oil and Saudi Arabia. Nothing to do with the U.S. support for Israel. Nothing at all. It’s not like Bin Laden and others of his ilk mention it all the time or anything. Every time.

    Pure Zionist Thug Revisionism, Middle.

    3) While you name call (incessantly) those who have criticism of certain aspects of the Jewish community, you tolerate to a significantly greater degree the most anti-Intellectual, hateful, and rabid Kahanists. Why, one might ask, is this so? Do you constantly not state your undying enmity for all things Fascist? Are you not bravely and constantly warring (ANONYMOUSLY, of course) with Nazis?

    Well, perhaps that’s only if they are anti-Semitic. As long as it’s (radical nationalism combined with exceptionalism) been stripped of any of measure of that one critical ingredient, it’s rather benign, apparently.

    And if they are Jewish. Of course.

    Zionist Thuggery, Middle Man.

    4) You are quick and quite willing to unearth personal information you have found out about the person(s) you are attacking and use it as a cudgel, while assiduously maintaining your own anonymity. This is utterly dishonorable behavior, and nothing to do with Zionism or any other ideology.

    Just plain old thuggery.

  • Middle,

    Read Esther’s post. You are bringing your blog down. I may be contributing to that as well, but as Yiz has painstakingly noted, your name calling was off the charts numerically.

    And it is your blog’s reputation that is suffering from this B.S. Not mine.

    We all have our demons, that’s why we have our own personal blogs. Look at Orthodoxanarchist – quite a bit different in subject matter and tone than Jewschool, don’t you think?

    We all have our demons, and they should stay in our own personal domain.

    Your demon is seeing Nazism in all who see things differently and more complicated than yourself. That’s one thing, but you simply aren’t able to compartmentalize your own issues from that of the group you are responsible to. It isn’t easy or clear cut, but you aren’t even trying.


    You are too big an idiot to know the damage you are doing. If I thought for a minute that you were going anywhere, or that this were in some real way your blog, I would have continued to keep up this debate, and let others count and proudly display how many times you called me what name. The “points” would surely add up over time, but perhaps differently than you think.

    It would be a sure fire way to cause this blog real damage over time.

    But unfortunately for me, who does have a mischeivous streak, but also a conscience, I know that you and only you are like that, and I have to comply and answer Esther.

    I am going to make one final comment on Esther’s post, and then take sympathy on this blog (not you).

    For depite the fact that I view the Jewish world very differently than Jewlicious frequently does (I mean everyone else who writes for it – not you Middle. You know what I think about you.), I know what it’s like to build something, I recognize that just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have a voice.

    And I have more compassion for the other writers of this blog, who I never met — nor worked with — than you apparently do.

  • To get back to Ovadia baby. I love his outfit-I want that outfit. I love his humour. No PC bull with him.

  • Middle, call him a Nazi instead of a moron so Godwin will save us. I’m bowing out, gentlemen.

  • David Kelsey, I’d say that you’re doing more damage to your own blog and anything you contribute to. There is a thin line between legitimate critique of race and/or religion and Stormfront. You cross that line with your jew tax remarks, and went even further accusing jewish doctors of pushing circumcision on gentile for the money. What next? Will you accuse jews of ritual murder?

  • Kesley claims he’s “kvetcher,” on his blog – here’s my read: CHUZPAH – We’ve found the guy for you! If ever there was a I’m- too- bitter- for- my- shirt- I- hate- God- Cuz- He- made- me- so- stupid- and- now- I- have- destroy- everything- in- my- site beshert for you, girlie girl, this is the guy!

    But look on the bright side! He won’t even bother to ask for the heter for Oral Sex. He’ll just demand it either way!


  • Kudos to David Kelsey. I must’ve had a Jewish pediatrician.

    I blame him for everything.

  • Kelsey, Jewlicious loves the middle. Muffti doesn’t much approve of name calling, but if that’s the worst ‘harm’ he does to Jewlicious, so be it. It is far outweighed by intelligent posting, dilligent commenting and, well, just being an all around kewl dude that we all like a lot.

  • Tom, on behalf of the cabal, I apologize. We’re trying to make it up to you with the free entertainment available on our little website.

  • Jsirpicco Communes with Higher Powers! From time to time I must “hide myself,” from the lower stratta of beings. It is painful for me as well, the seeming absence of my presence.

    Much has transpired in the time I was “away.” Not all can be revealed – for this, of course: KESELY – YOU WON’T FREAKING WEIRD, BITTER WHITE DUDE, YOU KNOW THAT?????

    Like – umm, okay, so you spent time at Ohr Somayach or Aish Hatorah, or Machon Shlomo, and with your SUPERIOR (not) IQ you ALONE discovered that lo and behold THE WORLD IS NOT PERFECT!!!! THE WORLD IS NOT PERFECT!!!!!


    And those pesky baalei teshuva! How dare they be weird and happy at the same time – rejecting money and whatever….WEIRD, YOU COULD TAKE, HAPPY YOU COULD TAKE.;..BUT WEIRD AND HAPPY AT THE SAME TIME????

    And here come the speeches, yes the lectures, the long posts, the wasting of JSIRPICCO’S PRECIOUS TIME! Telling me how NO, they’re not happy. They’re weird. They’re frustrated. They’re strange.

    And they circumcize their young and don’t have good jobs!

    Oh, if only I could go back AGAIN in time (yes, yes, Jsirpicco has traveled in other dimensions, but well, that’s ANOTHER STORY!!!!)

    If only I could go back in time, I know EXACTLY WHERE I’D GO – like that show, Quantum Leap…

    Wavy screen wavy screen wavy screeen wavy screen……~~~~~~~

    Yes, welcome everybody. It’s the BRIS OF DAVID KESLEY!!!!

    Here comes the Mohel…Yes, shapr as a tack after 67 years in business…no,no, don’t MIND THAT TREMOR IN HIS HAND! He’s find….

    In just a minute we’ll all be able to say “C’Sheim Sh – Nich —Uh Oh.

    OMG OMG OMG OMG@!!!!! The KNIFE HAS SLIPPED!!!! The KNIFE HAS SLIPPED!!!! David Kesley’s Bris has been severed irrevocably!!!

    I’m sooooooo sorry….says the aging Rav…Dis Has Never Hapent Mit Alles D’Years I’m Doingk Dis!
    Oy Vey Oy Vey!!!!!

    Wavy Screeen Wavy screen wavy screen….~~~~~~

    Ah yes, Jsirpicco’s job is done, for now. (And sing with me, to the Tune of Chaim Did a Mitzvah!)
    Kesley has a secret kesley has a secret kesley has a secret and now you all all know!

  • Circumcision, by reducing sensitivity slightly, prolongs a certain pleasure. Nothing wrong with that, right? Nobody should complain.

  • I have heard the same thing, Frog.

    I know three men who were circumcised in adulthood and thus were able to do the before and after comparison.

    Two said sex felt exactly the same and one said it felt BETTER.

    So there.

    Anyway, speaking personally, if sex felt any better I would probably screw myself to death, or spend most of my life trying to do so, so it is probably just as well.

  • Circumcision confers a military advantage.

    This was first noticed in the filthy renches in World War I, where soldiers spent miserable weeks. But infections in a certain place did not afflict the Jewish soldiers.

    That phenomenon was behind the idea of circumcision for non-religious reasons, for medical reasons, for non-Jews.

    Water for washing is just not always available. Their crew cuts grew out, and they got head lice. But some things do not grow back.

  • The filthy renches were supposed to be filthy trenches.

    Sometimes one just wants to do anthropology in a remote area, too. Doesn’t have to be war.

  • Does Frog remind anyone of a certain other poster who uses a different name when not talking about penises? Hmmmmmm…mysterious…

  • Oh Michael. Not so mysterious. You have the same access as I do, so we both know who that is. No reason to out him or her, though, unless he or she says something outrageously offensive. If he or she wanted to use the name we know him or her by, he or she would, right?

    And he or she would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for us meddling kids.

  • I am a Catholic who normally crawls under the coffee table and hides when Jews start arguing amongst themselves, but I would like to comment on the circumcision debate. My nephews, my brothers, my father, and my grandfathers are and were circumcised (or so I am told by my brothers; obviously, in the case of my older male relatives, I have no way of knowing directly and would find it a rather creepy thing to ask about). They are all about as Jewish as the Blessed Virgin Ma-no, wait, that’s not a good example- how about as Jewish as ham on Easter. In the case of my father and both grandfathers, they were raised in Midwestern farm communities. The idea that their families were gulled into agreeing to the cut by greedy Jewish doctors is utterly ridiculous. I am sure that the American concern with hygiene is what made circumcision prevalent among gentiles in this country.

    And long may it do so! My sister, a RN, once told me that elderly uncircumcised men frequently forget to wash under the foreskin. Taking care of them was a powerful aide to chastity when she was a nursing student. She made sure her own son was circumcised.

    Anyway, you have an interesting site here. I look forward to visiting again. Pay no attention to the goy under the coffee table.