(Updated from a previous article at JDaters Anonymous)
For the benefit of any non-Hebraically inclined readers, a shadchan is a matchmaker. The matchmaker’s job is, of course, to match an eligible, perhaps compatible man with an eligible, perhaps compatible woman. Depending on the matchmaking organization, eligibility may be determined by middos (ethical values), net worth, geographical location, religious hashkafah (point of view), or middos (physical measurements). Without arguing the relative merits or meanings of these criteria for matches, let’s just move on to the subject at hand.
Sweet Rose, a longtime JDaters Anonymous reader and bloggerette herself, recently wrote about why she’s not rejoining Saw You At Sinai, an online matchmaking service–she’s had bad experiences with the site, having not matched with a single person during her membership (I feel ya, sister–that’s my story too). But beyond that disappointment were her friends’ experiences:
A friend was telling me about a friend of hers (who I have met several times) who recently got dressed up, put on make-up, did her hair, and had someone take a very nice picture of her. She posted this photo on SYAS and received an incredibly rude e-mail, completely unsolicited, from a shadchan on the site. This e-mails subject line itself was “EW.” The e-mail consisted of berating and ridiculing remarks regarding this woman’s picture. Name-calling was even resorted to. The woman who received this e-mail was in tears after reading it.
This is the worst e-mail I have heard of, but not the only one. Who on earth gave the shadchanim the idea that it is okay to treat anyone in such a manner? Who taught these supposedly frum individuals that it is under the guise of Torah to give unsolicited criticism in a mean and cruel manner? What on earth was this woman thinking in writing such an e-mail?
Just because a person is single entitles no one, not even a shadchan who is “helping” that single, to be rude and cruel. I know many shadchanim received less than grateful responses from singles, and that is absolutely not justifiable either. But calling names and breaking down the self-esteem of women, for no reason that I can fathom, is ridiculously disgusting.
She’s right, no question. I’ve heard decent things about SYAS and about its leadership, so I’m going to assume that this one person is an aberration. An unforgivable aberration, but still not the norm. The worst thing I can say about my experience with SYAS is that for me it has been thus far rather ineffective, not further damaging to my self-esteem. (Chayyei Sarah recently reported having been to a decent event organized by SYAS, so I’m willing to bet this was more the exception than the rule.)
She continues:
What worries me the most is that this is not an isolated incident…One of my friends questioned whether men on SYAS get the same treatment, considering the fact that I have heard there are many more women on the site than men. I honestly don’t personally know any men who are on SYAS, but I would be interested to know whether any of them have received such e-mails.
I haven’t done the research and therefore may be speaking out of turn (or out of my, well, you know), but even without proof on my side, I feel comfortable saying that men don’t get these sorts of emails. Like it or not, there’s a huge imbalance in the way women and men are treated by traditional Judaism (and the world at large), and the imbalance is also clear when it comes to the value of a single Jewish man as opposed to the value of a single Jewish woman.
It’s no secret from anyone who reads pretty much everything I’ve written that one of my central issues with the Orthodox movement is the way it treats singles, especially single women in their thirties and “Godforbidforties”: as “a crisis,” thinking that if the community puts enough pressure on singles, they’ll marry and do their duty to the Jewish people by procreating. Never mind that some people, for whatever reason, may not WANT children at all or right now, or whatever (fricken babies, anyone?)…Or that most singles aren’t just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for Mr. Godot or Ms. Right to knock at their doors.
Maureen Dowd, commenting in her now famous/infamous NY Times Magazine article/book excerpt “What’s a Modern Girl to Do?”, says that on a society-wide level, men would rather marry their secretaries than their bosses, so as soon as a woman attains a measure of corporate accomplishment, she ceases to be attractive to him as a mate.
Women moving up still strive to marry up. Men moving up still tend to marry down. The two sexes’ going in opposite directions has led to an epidemic of professional women missing out on husbands and kids.
Sylvia Ann Hewlett, an economist and the author of “Creating a Life: Professional Women and the Quest for Children,” a book published in 2002, conducted a survey and found that 55 percent of 35-year-old career women were childless. And among corporate executives who earn $100,000 or more, she said, 49 percent of the women did not have children, compared with only 19 percent of the men. Hewlett quantified, yet again, that men have an unfair advantage. “Nowadays,” she said, “the rule of thumb seems to be that the more successful the woman, the less likely it is she will find a husband or bear a child. For men, the reverse is true.”
A 2005 report by researchers at four British universities indicated that a high I.Q. hampers a woman’s chance to marry, while it is a plus for men. The prospect for marriage increased by 35 percent for guys for each 16-point increase in I.Q.; for women, there is a 40 percent drop for each 16-point rise.
There are those who say we, the women, are the ones being too picky. Shulamit Reinharz, a sociology professor who is founder of Brandeis University’s Women’s Studies Research Center and the Hadassah-Brandeis Institute, noted the absurdity of this assumption in a recent opinion piece in the Forward:
Apparently we Jewish women are causing the problem by either refusing to marry because we like our careers too much, by marrying but refusing to have children because we like our careers too much, or by marrying but having only one child because we like our careers too much. The implicit assumption in this argument is that Jewish men are begging to marry us and we are saying no. And when they do marry us, they want to have children and again we say no.
Now, think about it. Does anyone actually know any people like this? Are Jewish men asking us to stay home and are we, in turn, refusing? Are we turning down all these marriage and motherhood proposals? Are we keeping our wombs to ourselves despite all the Jewish guys who want to beget with us?
And then there are others who say that dealing with the nightmare of dating in the (let’s just call it the) traditional Jewish world — as evidenced by creepy guys at kiddush, nightmare singles shabbatonim and horrific shadchan encounters — are enough to turn anyone off, not just to the process of looking for a soulmate, but to the traditional Jewish community in general.
And that is–or soon will be–the true crisis.
Enough boo-hoo-hooing for the women.
The experts don’t lie: they are the problem when it comes to shidduchim. And not for some idiotic reason like employment vs. stay-at-home-mom… no. No, the problem is that women *are* too picky, and by that I mean they are presented with men who are 99.9 percent, but they want 100 percent. No one on earth is 100 percent.
Take a 99.9 percenter like my brother. Now here’s a kid who is sweet, good-looking, hard-working and genuinely Torah-loving with great middos from a great family. But he’s just not acceptable to many women because he has a hearing problem that he was born with. He corrects it with an aid, but it’s something he’s had to deal with since birth. Rather than look on a guy like this as someone who has overcome adversity and shyness to be who he is – a heck of an accomplishment – he is deemed unacceptable. In the end, it’s not men who reject dates for something cosmetic or petty: it’s the women.
Eventually when they’re 35 and single, women will take any man regardless of who or what he is – but that’s not compatibility: that’s desperation.
And on a more personal note, ladies, start looking for shidduchim when you KNOW you are ready to get married. I cannot tell you how many girls are out there begging for shidduchim but when it comes to crunch time, they’re “just not readyâ€. Get your acts straight. Don’t approach a shadachan until you’re mature enough – emotionally and mentally – to take the next step. Stop wasting the time of thousands of honest bokerim.
Estherke, how is this an update? This is the original piece. Did you confront the owners of this web site? They seem to employ a bunch of folks. They should be held accountable. It is a disgrace. They try to set themselves to a higher standard, looks like they are worse than the kiruv clowns…
Personally, I don’t agree w.; the whole shadchan approach.
Do it yourself is my motto. Go over to the girl, introduce yourself and start a conversation that will be unique and interesting or whatever. What is so hard about this?
The whole shadchan thing is very foreign to my life experience.
esther wow! i hope you feel all better now. after finding so precisely the scapegoat you should surely feel much better.
not just men – jewish men!
not just jewish men – the jewish (let’s just call it) traditional men!
there was once an amazing movie the committments where the main character explains why it does make sense to play a soul music in dublin.
he says (with the most beautiful dubliner accent):
the irish are blacks of europe. the dubliners are blacks of ireland. the north-siders are blacks of dublin. so say and say it loud – i m black and i m proud!
so i say and i say it loud – i m a jewish (let’s call it) traditional men and i m proud!
As usual, everyone missed the point.
Jobber, this is an updated piece. It includes two major sections that were not in the original (with excerpts from columns by Maureen Dowd and Shula Reinharz). And maybe you’re lucky enough not to “need” a matchmaker, but for some people who are trying to keep all their options open, this is another way of being out there. And like I said, I don’t think this is Saw You At Sinai’s fault–it’s not up to me to complain about this issue to the SYAS administration, since it didn’t happen to me, but I hope that she who experienced it did complain. I’m just reporting it here.
Ybocher, you know that’s not what I was saying. Do you know me to be a scapegoating-type of person? If I’m “blaming” anyone, which I don’t believe I was, it’s the traditional community which has declared single people a crisis, and single women, specifically, a problem that no one wants to deal with.
And as for NoPity…I am deeply, deeply sorry that a “99 percenter” like your brother is having such a rough time with the shidduch world. It’s wrong, and it shouldn’t happen, and I’m sorry. That said, my friend who are single are not waiting for 100 percent. They are wonderful, witty, attractive women who don’t think it’s too much to ask for a person to not insult them, for a person to be comparably intelligent, or to have a sense of humor (whatever those terms mean to an individual person), or to be more or less in their age bracket. (For a few weeks, the average age of men looking at my JDate profile was 62.) Each of us has her uncompromisable issue, but for the most part, the women I know are very flexible about most things. In some cases, I think they’re being too flexible.
But when you say “experts” don’t lie, that women are the problem? Well, you have your experts and I have mine: people can talk theories and trends until they’re blue in the face. From your perspective, the women are the problem. From a woman’s perspective, the men are the problem. People argue all over the printed page and the internet about whose fault it is, and it’s pointless. We all just have to learn to be a little more open-minded, but accepting of the fact that not every person of a marriageable age is the bashert of any one other person of a marriageable age. It’s more complicated, which creates dissent and disappointment.
And did I mention my request that we obliterate the term “crisis” when it comes to discussing the singles situation?
Sheesh! I don’t think there’s a problem until one looks at the overall numbers. There’s a saying that all real estate is local. I think the same applies here: all “problems” are individual. Each person has to seek out their problem and find its solution. For some, Saw You at Sinai will find them their spouse, for others it will be JDate or a chance meeting at a party, for others it will be through friends or through a shidduch service. If time is working against you, you move faster. If time is on your side, you can work at a slower pace.
As for the issue of crisis. It’s a crisis if the community is dying out. Does that have anything to do with individuals? Of course not, people don’t get married so the larger Jewish community can feel better about its future. People get married for many reasons, but the first should be the joy of the union of the two people.
Let’s all relax a bit and try to think about who we know who might benefit from an introduction to good friends and then make it happen.
Lets not forget the 45 to 55 year old guys on Frumster who have never married, but insist on marrying someone young enough to have a LARGE family. Not just one or two kids will do for them. They’re looking for a fit, attractive brood cow with plenty of production time left on her. Oh, and “no baggage, please”. I swear to G-d that’s what one of the ads said! Of course it’s OK for the guys to wait until they are middle aged. They’ve had their fun, gotten their education, and built their nice big career. Women don’t have to do that stuff, right?
Someone please tell these guys that waiting too long to have kids greatly increases the chance of birth defects, because of the aging effects on their “swimmers”. It’s not just the women who have to worry about the biological clock.
I totally understand the halachic requirement to marry someone who you can produce children with. I have no issue with that. It’s the ones who think that they can put off their obligations to be fruitful and multiply until the very last second, and then make it their number one priority when looking for a mate, that tick me off.
/rant
I hear ya, Grace. A friend of mine has a theory that this is why women in their thirties have such trouble: twentysomethings are too immature, and fortysomethings are looking for women in their twenties. Her theory had more details and numbers, but that’s the basic summary.
Well everyone is immature in some way, the blaming game is not worth much. I agree that they would never hassle a man like that. But it just shows that this particular shadchan is rude, stupid, and a fraud. Not all of them are.
BTW you have a new thing where women get together at meetings and propose and discuss their friends kids or ahat
really? can you tell us where these events are? because that would be awesome.
I seriously don’t understand how you can say that there are a ton of single women out there and not enough men. The last 5 Jewish events I’ve been to have had 2-3x as many males as females.
I’m in Washington, DC- try any event.
Sorry for your friend’s awful experience on that website. If you want me to make her feel better you could send her pic to me and I’m sure she won’t get an “EW” rating.
Anyways, sorry ladies, but that is just how the world is. If I wanted financial advice, I would much rather go to my financial advisor than getting it in bed. I also don’t want my lover to be correcting my C# code. Nor do I want her to tell me how I should train my men.
I’m looking for a woman who is just about everything that I am not. Somebody who would make me whole.
I know that you women don’t like this fact about what us men want. Trust me. I’ve had a powerful Mother.(she was for the most part the leader of the house) My oldest sister received a graduate degree and has started a promising career. My other sister is striving to become a university professor. Our society encourages women to be independent, and I’m not against it.
But I’m not going for a woman in the average American society. I’m looking to catch an Orthodox woman who is looking to have a wonderful family. I could give her what she wants, and she could give me what I want. I wouldn’t be against her having a career, but somebody needs to run the family, and that person is not going to be me. Every movie, book, even humanity’s history has said that men are the breadwinner while women are the caregivers. All that I want to be is to be a man. I’m going to earn a living. I’m going to go to war. I’m going to be a good husband. But a stay-at-home father is not on my list.
Once again, I encourage you ladies to strive for a career. Just understand that getting a family and a career is a trade off. The more of a career you have, the less chance that you’ll have a wonderful family. And the better the family you create, the less chance that you’ll have to pursue your career.
Wow.
Fivel, that is fine but you also need to be flexible. W/ shidduchim, it looks to me like you get one shot, then if you blow that one, you have to wait for some time for another chance. So if you will be so dogmatic, you might scare someone away.
It’s no secret from anyone who reads pretty much everything I’ve written that one of my central issues with the Orthodox movement is the way it treats singles…
I’d end the sentence right there…
Apparently we Jewish women are causing the problem by either refusing to marry because we like our careers too much…Now, think about it. Does anyone actually know any people like this?
This one I’ve got to disagree with. Do women make explicit plans to not marry, the way she describes? Of course not. Do many women set short- and medium-term priorities that hinder their opportunites to marry? Absolutely!. As Fivel said, there’s a tradeoff and it’s silly and counterproductive to pretend there isn’t.
Incidentally, following the “creepy guys at kiddush” link is subjecting me to a cid: injection attack, not on that page but on the main Wondering Aloud page.
“Gufle” doesn’t seem the hax0r type, but there’s something nasty on her page — I’m guessing that WNTW photo link.
I will tell you Fivel, that you have an idealistic position. This is fine as long as you can earn enough for the both of you. If something happens that effects your earnings, then what? How does a woman who can be in her late 30’s-40’s who never worked, what is she supposed to do, if your job has been outsourced to India, or if the industry you are in, is not as robust as it once was? or if you yourself, have lost the energy u once had as a youthful 20 yo?
What does an entry level person in their 40’s make, bring to the table? Nada.
I can tell you about my case this is exactly what happened. We both believed that it is better for the mother to be at home, and while I was earning more than enough, this was fine.
Now that the economy has shifted for me and many like me, I am somewhat regrettful that I did not focus on the financial part more, I too was idealistic.
I have children who need things that I cannot provide fullt for anymore. It is not the end of the world but it is not an optimal place.
First, I just have to be amused that the AmEx ad under this article while I am replying said “I believe in sleeping in till noon, lobster dinners, and not breaking the bank to pay for it.” It seemed funny.
Anyway, my real comment is this. Fivel, it’s fabulous that you “want to be the man”. I think it’s a wonderful ambition, and you’ll make someone very happy I hope. However the scorn with which you imply that women should be satisfied to “have a family” is insulting at best. You imply that my intellect (which I firmly believe was, on some level, a gift from Hashem) should be ignored, so that I can raise a family. That that’s the acceptable answer for a girl who wants to be a Jew as opposed to a member of “mainstream American society”. It’s not that women hate that *you* are looking for Holly Hommemaker…it’s that women hate to be told to their faces that it’s the only appropriate occupation for a woman. Why should we be content to raise children, cook, and clean, when we have talents and abilities that are more useful outside the home?
Rovka, Right I was going to get to that also but so much stress at work, big project happening.
What you have here is the dufus mentality, I call it the “Five towns copycat syndrome”.
You are right, it doesn’t take much brains to clean. That’s why I don’t do it much.
However, it takes a good bit more brains to cook; I know, because I have tried, and I still can’t.
To raise children took ALL the brains I EVER had, every little bit. It was the most intellectually demanding and satisfying thing I ever did, my SATs are as good as anybody’s.
Writing papers? Give me a break. Mostly cobbling together stuff from the library. Original research is pretty rare.
But a fresh brain to write on? (A child’s.) Oh yeah. THAT is interesting.
It might seem like a slow-paced dull thing, but that is only because you don’t see what is really going on. For instanct, Madame Curie discovering radium would not have LOOKED exciting to an observer; she was just mumbling around in her lab, peering at things, fiddling with equipment and bending over her notes. Important stuff is not quick or dramatic. She had a daughter, by the way.
What looks exciting can be really as dull as dishwater. For instance, I saw a rock concert in a public square yesterday, projected huge all over the facades of the buildings. It looked exciting. It wasn’t. It was a re-hash of the sixties and meant nothing. By contrast:
Don’t go by what you SEE in the playgrounds, with the little fumbled gestures, and the sitting on the bench, blah blah. It looks dull. It looks like exile from society. But more is going on there than in most of the offices, boardrooms and executive suites.
So, it’s NOT wasting your talents and abilities to do the family thing. It will use every smarts you have, from what you have read, to your life experiences, to street smarts, to every thing you ever learned, pondered or formulated as your own views. Your deepest inner intellectual and emotional resources are NOT “more useful outside the home”. Or more fun either.
If work outside the home were such fun, you would pay them. They wouldn’t have to pay you. At the movies, you pay. Because it’s fun.
JM, it depends on the family. The need for 2 incomes is real. Not everyone is willing to accept a substandard of living, and degrade oneself on all kinds of levels.
Let them aquire their skills and job experience so at least they have that expertise to fall back on if and when the Good L-rd decides to take them down.
Rivka, you saw right through the Amex ad that said you could “have it all”; sleep til noon, eat expensive food, and not “break the bank” to do those things. “I believe” it started.
But, it was labeled “advertisement”. There are some things that are not obviously advertisements but that are just as silly, but one’s guard is down, and the silliness is therefore harder to detect.
Essential life equipment includes a well-oiled, late-model Baloney-Detector with a fresh battery and a loud alarm.
I actually know one of the more successful shadchanim on SYAS–very kind lady who would probably bite off her own tongue before she would say something as hurtful as did the shadchan you reference. That being said, she has set me up with guys who are 1) insane or 2) living in the United States or 3) living in Israel right now but with very little actual potential or plans to stay and who will be soon be back living in the United States. sigh….
Actually, this article reminded me that I had not checked my account on the various sites in some time. Inspired, I checked and found that yet ANOTHER Haredi guy living in the United States had written me. At least this one was closer to my age (I normally get the old guys looking to wipe out their previous sins by building a whole new, kosher family) but still, WHY? Why would a haredi guy write to someone who is just barely dati?
Sorry, not really connected, but had to vent.
It’s got to be through mutual friends or relatives where there are TWO sets of beady eyes on BOTH people. At least that is the best way.
Otherwise, it’s “I think I’ll have the strawberry…..nooo ….maybe vanilla….mmm too fattening…. had that last week…..too exotic… not exotic enough… I dunno…”
There are some very nice single men on this very site. They are alive, breathing, smart, and right here. No, they are not perfect. (Perfect people never lose arguments so it is important to stay away from them.) Perfect people also cook better than you, which is loathesome. But, they may be too good-looking. People who are too good-looking are always being hit on, which is tiresome.
Clean, literate and not too fabulous. That’s what I recommend.
Sometimes in life what you need is right in front of you, and you just need to see it.
No zebras. A solid quarterhorse in an inconspicuous color, not troubled by a little rain.
I firmly believe that, as a Jewish woman, you can have it all. And if you don’t get it all, that’s not necessarily your fault. There are external factors at play such as scarcity of good men, etc.
There are very few women who, if given the option of choice – ie choose one of the following: loving husband and family, or stimulating career – would not choose the husband and family. That being said, what are women supposed to do until the right man comes along? And then, till the children come?
And even once a family has been created, how can you expect a woman to just roll over and let her intellect die? Having children doesn’t exercise the intellect enough – animals have babies too, and they don’t have the capacity to establish a legal career etc.
My mother has a habit of saying “Oh, isn’t she clever” when she hears that any of my friends have had babies. No, it’s not clever. That’s totally the wrong adjective.
To Nopity…
Am interested to know more about your brother. Have sister with exactly the same dilemma. Beautiful, smart, traditional, sweetes nicest girl but with a hearing “problem”…
lets talk…mail me at germanjewess at googlemail dot com
JM-
I think your argument is false.
A) I was just amused by the ad. I was amused that an ad on Jewlicious promoted lobster. That’s all that comment ment.
B) I think it’s disingenuous to tell me that it takes all my brains to cook and raise kids. Especially since my cooking is abyssmal, and the one time I was put in charge of kids, I failed. As in someone got taken to the hospital. It wasn’t anything too serious, but it would have been totally preventable if I’d been wired more to be attentive to the kids. But I’ll be honest. I’m not. And I don’t think it’s fair to tell me that the only modality in which I will find a husband, and have a fulfilling life, is if I somehow learn to be. That was my problem with Fivel. Maybe Hashem meant for me to be a geneticist, or a diplomat, or a stand-up comidienne. But from *my* experience, he didn’t mean for *me* to be a mother. That doesn’t mean that’s what’s meant for all women, but I don’t think it’s fair to tell me that’s my only acceptable option when it doesn’t work for me.
On the other hand, my experiences have given me a great respect for women who *can* do things like cook, raise kids, and keep a beautiful home.
Rivka, what you are saying is not a Torah based position, which Afaiac, there is nothing wrong w/ this position, but this is an issue of peers, who have an overriding position, that of preserving the Jewish people. IOW, if you accept the Torah position, then you just do it. As has been done by countless heroic generations of Jewish women before you. If you want to break w/ this tradition, that is certainly your right, but not w.in the traditional Jewish context.
Also if you would analyze your position, it is most likely one which will cause you great suffering in later years, if you have been always alone, you will not have caring people around you as you age.
The reason that this is bad, is that there will be intense lonliness that you will make up for in various ways, which will likely not lead you to any real intellectual satisfaction. Certainly it is an unstable way of life that you propose.
This has nothing to do w/ that fellows statements. I agree that if you can, you should attain a professionalized career. Not just any job, but something wherein you attain an expertise that is respected. I say this for 2 reasons, not only the economic, but as well, imho, a woman who only knows from babies, cannot really discuss issues of interest that her husband might have, even from his silly job, where he is interacting, growing hopefully in his communications skills, his professional attainments, while such a wife is steeped in diapors. Not saying that the man cannot love his wife, he does, he is happy that she is on the Gachellet, the guard, but that he is going to have a hard time conversing w/ someone who is not playing on the hard court of life, as he is.
The only argument I can see for choosing to stay at home, is that all of your love, you are devoting to your child, not into some project or meeting or resume.
Girls – makeover and lose 25 pounds; guys: get a better job, and build your character into a man instead of boy boy. Both: get over yourselves and learn to give the other the benefit of the doubt.
Thus sayeth Jspircco, zt’l
I just was speaking w/ a recent divorcee. I was doing some renovation work on her new home. We spoke quite a bit about this whole issue. She seemed like a very fun person, right out of the box. She stated that she had married the wrong person. 2 things stuck out. one she constantly was analyzing behaviors and decisions in terms of would it make the spouse angry. THe other was that she listed things that she liked to do, in her nature, as opposted to things that he liked to do.
I didn’t say, but it would seem to me, that to make a marriage work there has to be this kind of joining into doing what one or another likes, w/out labeling it, his fun, my fun.
Some call this compromise, but it is a small part of compromise. It is to leave your personal trainer aside and live for the other person.
Good Shabbis,
Nogaiyah BeDavar
I apologize for my delay.
Jobber—
For one thing, I would never tell a woman that I have the “least bit of interest” in how I actually feel, atleast not from the get-go. The truth is that if I find a special woman (and Jewish) in the next few years she is not going to have the Orthodox ideals that I’m searching for. I myself am Orthodox, but due to my path that H-shem has chosen for me, I am living for the most part an “unkosher” life style. So I am flexible in the idea of not marrying much of a “traditional” woman, even though I am looking for one. But love does work in mysterious ways.
I also understand your situation. Let me tell you however that I am confident in being able to provide for my family. First of all, I don’t live a very materialistic lifestyle and I would suspect that traditional women aren’t materialistic either. Therefore our lifestyle would be economically efficient.
Second, I’m going to pick up a career that pays very well and is also extremely hard to outsource to other countries. I did my research. (Which luckily pushed me away from accounting and finance) Also, G-d forbid, if something would happen to me in war, my family would receive $400,000+ in almost (if not full)non-taxable money. This ought to hold the family over for a while and long enough until she finds a solid career and/or another husband. And trust me, I’m not into idiotic “yes sir” women who can’t think on their own, so she would be fine being independent.
Rivka–
I am not scorning any modern, independent women. Truth is, I root for my sisters to be professional independent women. But then I see their sadness and helplessness when they are ripe to start a family but the beginning of one is nowhere in sight. (Thankfully my oldest just married a good man. Better late than never)
You should know that I stated the type of woman that I’m looking for. Not what “all women should be.” Obviously we are not really compatible, so don’t worry if you see me walking around in the bay area.
“I would suspect that traditional women aren’t materialistic either…our lifestyle would be economically efficient”. Someone’s been nipping too much Kiruv juice lately!!! Fivel,look at a gas bill after putting a “blech” over a lit flame for 24 hours. A halfway acceptable sheitel costs over $1000.Will you accuse your spouse of being materialistic when she can’t stand looking like shit in acrylic wigs anymore? An apartment or house within an eruv is way more than a similiar place outside the lines. Yeshiva tuition vs. public school – enough said. Everything that is needed to conduct an Orthodox lifestyle in the U.S. requires almost double the amount of money an non-orthodox lifestyle requires. Just look at the cost of cereal with a hechsher vs. a no-frills brand. In the U.S. Orthodoxy is not for people who are extra spiritual, it’s a luxury for people who have extra money.
This poster once again proves my theory that secular men become Orthodox because they think they will find a woman who will make them feel like man by not outshining them outside the home.
Ah, you got me Chutzpah. My one economic inefficiency is kosher foods. Yes, kosher foods are twice as expensive as regular meat. And since I’m a meaty guy I blow a lot of money on it. As for the cost of a membership to a nice synagogue and my future children’s education, I’m going to have that no matter who I marry.
As for the Orthodox lifestyle being only for those who could afford it. How much does it cost to pick up a tziddur and pray? As for the extra cost in kosher foods and a membership, you have to believe that G-d will reward the work of your hands manifold for having faith in Him.
Chutzpah, I am hurt by your assumption on why I am now Orthodox. Honestly. You don’t know my path and every hurdle that I have overcome to become an observant Jew. If I could find a secular Jewish woman who will become an observant Jewish woman, then that would be perfect for me. I am a victim to beautiful eyes, girls wearing sexy short shorts/skirts, “dancing close” in the club and all of that, but I am mature in that I understand that the lifestyle that I seek is incompatible with almost all non-Orthodox Jews in America.
Will she understand why I pray to a god when I am all alone? Will she understand the importance of keeping a kosher kitchen? Will she understand why I would speak to my children of H-shem every night? Not unless she has a firm faith in the G-d of Israel.
All of my close friends are not Jewish. We party together. We work together in what we do. We care for each other. But we are not housemates because there would not be a kosher kitchen. That is the only reason why I don’t agree to live with them. Now, if I can’t live in an unkosher kitchen for one year, how would I be able to live with a secular Jewish woman who doesn’t believe in all of these things the same way that I do. If she doesn’t believe in the power of the G-d of Israel, how “at home” would she feel at her “home” that she has made artificially, only to please her husband, when these very Jewish things are foreign to her.
So no, I am not one of your “secular men” who become Orthodox because I want to be the imposing figure. Women do not determine my religious observance. On the contrary, my religious observance is determining the type of woman that I am looking for.
Fivel, you have no idea as to the effects of paying 4 tuitions over time. There are other things like that you can’t work on Saturday even if you wanted to. Sunday there is less work. I am not advocating not to keep Shabbos, You have an expectation to donate for an aliyah, to make a kiddush, to sponser. you are invited to many celebrations. When you have the money, you do so, you know the hole in your pocket syndrome?
I am trying to convey that the difficulties of the budget for a religious lifestyle are much more dramatic than you think.
Now of course I must say, the system is good in the social sense, you are not isolated, even a person not overly friendly or outgoing will find friends in most communities. Now this is something not everyone will have.
The Yeshivas have many costs besides the tuition, there is if you want to have piano lessons, this costs you, in a P.S. it would be a class, then they have other classes in Yeshivas after school, you pay for this, this would also be a class in a P.S. (Electives).
I urge you to reconsider this position of yours. It could be accurate if you were to live in a Hitnachalut in Israel, but no way to consider a family life in North America, as was elequently stated by Chutzpah, who I do agree w/ on this issue.
Any economically-efficient Orthodox folks out there? Show us you exist, and tell us how you do it. : )
nonymous, it’s called living in Israel, where Jewish school is free, college is cheap, and the land flows with kosher milk and honey (and kosher almost everything else too) I really don’t know how people do it elsewhere.
Can I just comment that the construction “H-shem” is kind of stupid? I mean, for the love of God, it’s a replacement for a replacement for a replacement of an original. If overenthusiastic baalei teshuva keep making replacements for and chopping letters out of God’s various titles, soon all we’re going to have is “Barchu et . hamvorakh, barukh . hamvorakh l’olam va’ed.”
H-s-em yishmor aleinu.
(Laya, someone is subsidizing all of that lovely “free” Jewish education).
yes. what’s your point? (I’m not meaning to be argumentative)
Laya, people do struggle to make these payments. I can’t speak for the decades past, but I believe there was a period of economic growth in North America during the 90’s, so to pay tuitions was not that hard for most.
It is harder now for many, so they do have tuition assistance, although it depends greatly on which school and which community. In one school I only get a 20% reduction, in another 65%.
But Laya is correct, it would be less stressful for people in this category to live in Israel.
Many Diaspora based Jews have a deep love affair w/ the country they were born in like that. I am not sure why this is, but then, I have lived myself in Israel for many years so I may have a diff. perspective.
I see constant anti-semitism, on a reg. basis, there is yelling, throwing things, and worse that is rained upon Jews walking to Shule, or on Jewish owned businesses. This is taken in stride, ‘it’s just a bunch of misfits’.
I am trying to learn how to convince someone of the greatness of moving and living in Israel, your own country, one that is a capitalistic country, yet w/ some very important built-in protections for people who need them, like subsidized basic foods, medical care, and to some extent more job protection.
It was a revelation to me, on a flight once from Israel, the entire plane was virtually all Christian tourists from the Bible belt, they could not stop raving about how gr8 their fun there was, how they were holding and displaying various items that they had purchased there.
Here’s an interesting article on “The High Cost of Jewish Living in America.”
http://judaism.about.com/library/2_americanjewry/bl_costofjewishliving.htm
“It is estimated that orthodox Jews in America spend 25-35% of their income on Jewish experiences.”
Jobber–
It seems like you think that I’m going to be anultra Orthodox,a person who prays many times more than time spent living in this world.
I don’t feel the need to be a Jewish scholar. Many of the people that has known me well has expected of me one time or another to become a Rabbi. It sounds good, but I would consider it a waste of a number (3,5,10?)of years of my life when I could be helping out the world my own way.
I am a self-taught Jew. I have had almost absolutely no guidance in my Jewish education. I started out knowing less than Christians about my own religion from the time I was 18 years old. All I did was read Torah, Holy Scriptures, books of good Jewish scholars, and Prayer books among other things. To be honest, it is hard for me to learn anything from any Rabbi anymore about how to live a Jewish life because my soul is a real Jew. All of the little details that advances yeshivas are for are irrelevant to me. (But you must admit that Talmud is a good work out for your brain)
I don’t work Saturdays, but you must think that I’m crazy in telling you that I actually feel that H-shem is rewarding me for my observance. (Yes Michael. H-shem is great. H-shem is Compassionate. H-shem, H-shem, H-shem the Sovereign)
I don’t expect my children to go to a Yeshiva. Public education can teach children many real life lessons better than being secluded from the world. Add Jewish wisdom to knowledge of the outside world is powerful.I am confident that I could teach my “children to be” to become enthusiastic about learning Jewish Wisdom while also guiding them in their spiritual education.
So no, it is not going to be too expensive. And spending money for social gatherings? I already spend $35 a week on a night out with my friends, even as a poor college student. Life is short, so why live it inside?
Jewish life isn’t that expensive, and even though it costs more than being secular, it adds color to one’s life.
I bet H–h-m would reward you more if you took on further chumrot in regards to knocking letters out of his non-name. I mean, one day you’re spelling “Hashem” with all its letters, the next you’re eating pork chops off a naked shiksa. Seriously. I’ve seen it happen.
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