aliyah

A 9th generation Israeli writing about American Immigration to Israel..from New York. Seemed a little hafuch, or upside-down to me. Nonetheless, Author and Culture Editor for the New York Jewish Week, Liel Lebovitz indulged me in several email rounds of modern talmudic debate about zionism and Judaism which all began with one simple, if lengthy interview, ostensibly about his book.

Titled Aliyah: Three Generations of American-Jewish immigration to Israel, the book asks

why would american jews – not just materially successful in this country but perhaps for the first time in the two-thousand-year jewish diaspora truly socially accepted and at home – choose to leave the material comforts, safety and peace of the united states for the uncertainty and violence of israel?

I’ve pretty much lived this book, yet still find Liel’s perspective to be an interesting one. The interview reprinted below transcends the genre, and goes to the heart of the American Jewish experience.


Laya: You’re 9th generation Israel, writing a book about Aliya, yet living in New York. Do you find there to be a certain irony, or tension in that?
Do you intend to move back?

Liel: Despite being a ninth generation Israeli, it was my move to New York, I believe, that has given me the critical distance necessary to write the book. Immigration – like poverty, war or illness – is an emotionally charged experience, one that does not lend itself easily to the journalist’s probing gaze. Having gone through that experience myself, albeit in the reverse direction to that taken by my subjects, I felt more at ease with, and more capable at, trying to understand them, or, as journalism professors often like putting it, getting inside their heads.
For the near future, at least, I see myself remaining in New York, in my heart there is always a lively and engaged dialogue with Israel. When I return there – and I believe it is a question of when rather than if – I would do so with the advantage of insight that only years in exile can award.

Laya: What, if anything, do you think that American immigrates specifically offer Israel or Israelis?

Liel: On the most basic level, the American olim bring with them a sense of propriety and a penchant for order that is sorely lacking in the Israeli public sphere. The idea, for example, that one must patiently wait in line when a line is formed, or show a modicum of respect for one’s elders, these ideas are largely foreign to Israeli culture, where directness often slips into bluntness and from there to temerity. Second of all, the sort of methodical thinking that the American mind so excels at – analytical, strategic, computing – is an asset from which Israel stands to greatly benefit. Israel, ever since its rocky birth, has always been a nation that took pride in its capacity to improvise, a talent that had, many times in the past, saved it from utter demise. There comes a time, however, in a country’s mental life, in which the sort of maturity that is associated with planning ahead, making decisions, being prepared is unavoidable. I believe that it was precisely this sort of thinking that American olim brought with them as a dowry, improving in the process everything from Israel’s business landscape to its political traditions.

Laya: There is a certain amount of resentment from Israelis that is sometimes felt by American Immigrants, can you explain why or where that comes from?

Liel: Most of Israelis, I believe, are ardent Zionists, but their Zionism is not very different from the patriotism of Frenchmen, Italians or Brits, an inherent sense of pride that stems from the natural affection and dedication one feels toward one’s birthplace. For American Jews who make Aliya, however, Zionism is more of a spiritual ideology, a stirring and dominant sensation. Israelis, never ones for naïve expressions of emotion, sometimes regard the unabashedly enthusiastic Zionism professed by the American olim and shudder. To them, such unmitigated ideology, expressed by a non-native – particularly a non-native who was gullible enough to leave the United States, which most Israelis still see as being not very different from Disney’s Magic Kingdom – is not admirable but laughable.
The main exception, of course, is American olim who serve in the army, where all distinctions are largely erased and a uniform mentality, supremely Israeli, is instilled.

Laya: How do you define Zionism today, or what defines a Zionist?

Liel: Personally, I still define Zionism simply as the firm belief in the right of a Jewish homeland to exist in Eretz Israel (or parts of Eretz Israel), and the dedication to that homeland as a political entity. Herein, I believe, I differ from many in the religious camp, whose Zionism leads them to crave the land while taking umbrage with the state, particularly when the state does such things as withdraw from territories or negotiate with its former enemies. I believe this is a rupture that is only bound to get deeper.

Laya: While Zionism used to be seen as a movement of the working class, aligned with social justice, left wing politics and the like, it now seems to be aligned with the political right and the religious. When and why did that change take place, and why does it now seem like a contradiction to be a leftist and pro-Israel?

Liel: To paint a brief portrait, the movement can be said to have three major moments in its history. The first is its moment of birth, in the 19th Century, with numerous intertwined helixes – cultural Zionism, religious Zionism, territorial Zionism, political Zionism – coming together to form both a movement and an idea .

The second moment, of course, is the establishment of the state of Israel; with Zionism having achieved its main, if not only, goal, namely, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Eretz Israel, the movement and the ideology alike began to flounder. What had once been a solid ideological structure was now open to questioning: How, for example, was the Israeli’s patriotism, which he might define as Zionism, differs from the Frenchman’s? Or how can an American Jew define him or herself as a Zionist, and still decline to fulfill Zionism age-old purpose, the immigration to Zion? And with the idea descending into doubt, the movement, too, became fractioned.

A third, equally important moment came after Israel’s victory in the Six Day War, a victory that brought many Biblical sites under Jewish control, Jerusalem first and foremost. Inspired by Rav Kook Jr., a new wave of Zionism, this one religious, erupted, manifesting itself mainly by settling in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. This movement, in a sense, was the only one capable of giving a successful and coherent answer to the crisis of Zionism; spiritual yearnings and biblical undertones were always present in even the most secular streams of classic Zionist thought, and the religious Zionists could now claim a concrete goal akin to the one of the movement’s original period

As a result of all of the above, the traditional, leftist adherents of Zionism became somewhat detached, while the right-wing, religious Zionists grew more adamant and more numerous. This, I believe, also explains the fact that the majority of olim in the past two decades have been religious, with many moving to settlements. This is also why some find it impossible to reconcile their leftist views with support for Israel; with Zionism no longer broad enough to contain its previous sub-ideologies, socialism first and foremost, many on the left are moved to judge Israel in the harsh, decontextualized prism of its actions, thereby judging its occupation of the West Bank, its continuing military measures against a civilian Palestinian population, and its construction and expansion of settlements in the heart of territories heavily populated by Palestinians in the harshest light.

Laya: How does the current trend of “hipster Judaism” play into this?

Liel: At the outset, I must admit to a certain bias regarding both the term and its adherents. I believe the term to be derogatory, or at least derogatorish, as it assumes that reading mishna and tosafot is Jewish whereas reading “Guilt and Pleasure” is not, or at least not as serious. I believe that just as religious Zionism provided a strong, simple, and coherent explanation at a time of doubt, questioning and paradigm shifts, so did religious Judaism give a strong, unequivocal definition of Jewish culture, a theory, I believe, that helps explain the exponential growth in both the numbers and influence of the fervently Orthodox community. In both cases, however, the religious definition is compelling but narrowly cast; it offers a world entire, but demands the adoption of a few key credos that not every Jew is comfortable with.

Therefore, I am thrilled with any serious effort to try and redefine what does Jewish culture maketh, and agree that listening to a recording by a Jewish artist could move some into conversation, contemplation, and hopefully action, much more effectively than a straightforwardly Jewish text.

In this light, I believe, Israel may very likely emerge as a major attraction for the new set of cultural seekers. I suspect that many in my generation might discover, if properly introduced, a country chockfull of cool people, terrific music, perfect weather, interesting foods and relaxed atmosphere, a country very different from either the ephemeral holy place of the right or the sinister Leviathan of the left. Under such circumstances, I can certainly imagine Aliya becoming bon ton with the so-called hipster set, with young people tuning in to Jewish culture on the Lower East Side and becoming transcontinental Kerouacs, going on the road that ends in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.

Laya: Do you need faith, in the greater sense, to live in Israel?

Liel: I believe the answer is yes – faith is necessary. But that depends, of course, on what your definition of “faith” is. For me, the faith you need to immigrate to Israel is not the faith of the observant Jew, but the faith of the absorbing Jew, the Jew ready to absorb the country’s illogical and magical and incomprehensible elements and distill them into a personal identity. Let me briefly quote from my book: “A man can give as many reasons as he wishes when asked why he emigrated from America to Israel, but the real answer simply isn’t available to the cognitive faculties. It must be felt. It is sensed when one walks down the streets of Jerusalem, realizing that one’s ancestors walked those same streets centuries ago. It is present when one experiences the depth of spirituality in Israel, the sort of spirituality that relies less on texts and ceremonies and prayers, and more on the air and the hills and the sea.” Aliya, then, is an act of faith, but, at its core, it is faith of a different sort.

About the author

Laya Millman

67 Comments

  • Hey, I like this guy. He explains how one can feel connected to Israel in a non-explicitly religious way, which is something I myself have been trying to elucidate. Cool interview, Laya!

  • great interview! I like the comments on “hipster judaism” a trend which both intrigues and repels me at once. Anyways, I was going to take this book on vaca with me next week but started it early. Great book!!

  • Irving Howe wrote in one of his books, that the early Zionist leaders, assumed that Jews in America who had gone there from Russia would be happy to join them in Israel, due to the horrible poverty they were having on the Lower East Side. They were shocked when that did not happen.
    Howe’s explanation is that once you put down roots somewhere, that is it.

  • I haven’t read that from Howe, but I think the case in the US for US immigrants is that they knew they were going to improve their lot. They may have been struggling but they KNEW they would be better off after a while and they knew they could provide something to their kids.

    And however bad they were doing in the US materially, they would hve it worse in Israel. Hence, this is why I firmly believe that Israel needs to focus on economic growth and improvement for all its citizens in order to create aliya rather than short-term gimmicks for a select few. That, to me, is the secret that will bring western aliya and I truly believe from the recesses of my soul that it’s possible.

  • “why would american jews… leave the material comforts, safety and peace of the united states for the uncertainty and violence of israel?”

    Quick answer?

    They don’t. The American aliyah is a tiny trickle of immigrants, and the majority of them return home to America within five years. That’s what they *don’t* tell you in the Nefesh b’Nefesh propoganda.

    Furthermore, those numbers that stay are nothing compared to the thousands of Israelis that make America their permanent home every year. Statistically, Israeli immigration is pushing the Jewish-American growth rate to its highest levels in years.

    Sorry, Liel. But great interview none-the-less.

  • Return of the Bling, dude, visit us more often! Always enjoy your comments.

    Statistically, I think about 50% of American olim return to the US at some point, usually in the first five years. However, I don’t think the number of Israelis coming to the US and Canada is having a significant statistical impact. I could be wrong but this is anecdotal based on at least 5 North American cities with which I’m familiar.

  • Ah, the great absorption vs. retention debate. This is one of the things that haunted me most when I wrote “Aliya,” as the number of American olim who returned to the States, as well as the number of Israelis who immigrated to America, seem to be guarded with a tenacity befitting nuclear secrets. Still, I did manage to extract some numbers, which I thought might be helpful to this debate.

    First of all, the number of Americans who make Aliya only to return several years later is in constant decline: Approximately 40 percent on average returned in the beginning of the 1980s, whereas nowadays the number is closer to 25 percent; still quite a few families, but a more substantial retention rate nonetheless.

    Second of all, the number of Israelis who immigrated to the United States in the past two decades is no larger than 35,000; it’s a lot, considering that Israel’s Jewish population hovers at around 5.4 million, but American olim – let’s say 60,000, giving for an average retention rate of 70 percent, out of approximately 5.2 million American Jews – still take the proverbial cake. If anyone has other numbers, I would very much love to see them.

    But there’s more to it, I believe, than numbers; while statistical questions are certainly pertinent to this debate, the overriding principle is greater than the sum of its parts. Return of the Bling, you commented that American Aliya is a “tiny trickle.” Statistically, you’re correct – they represent about 1 percent of American Jews; but the question that I found fascinating, and still do, is why even that many? After all, American Aliya is a unique phenomenon, in as much as it is one of a handful of movements of mass immigration (“mass” being defined as more than a few hundred individuals) from, and not to, the United States. That a fraction of the community, no matter how small, would consistently, over the course of years and for different reasons, execute such a move – seemingly inexplicable in rational, sociological terms – is fascinating.

    As is the facts that the numbers are rising exponentially; last year, more than 3,200 American olim immigrated to Israel, the highest number in two decades. Considering the fact that the recent wave of Aliya is comprised mostly of Orthodox families, and that, among that community, Aliya is becoming an increasingly viable option, we are very likely to see, in the next ten years or so, the tiny trickle becoming considerably stronger.

    Which is partly why I agree wholeheartedly with Amechad’s thoughts; without a stronger economic infrastructure, Israel is unlikely to prove attractive, neither to American olim nor to native Israelis seeking a comfortable life.

    Finally, let me say that in no way do I consider Aliya to be the end-all of Zionism or the Golden Fleece of modern Jewish identity. On the contrary: Myself an Israeli in the States (what my countrymen would derisively call a “yored”), I am thrilled with the opportunity to closely examine my own Jewish identity, an opportunity that too many native Israelis, I believe, take for granted. This dialogue, which is ultimately about such lofty things as Israel, Zionism and the state of Jewish life, is one I’m thrilled to have; hey, if Jews won’t do the talking, who will?

  • I moved to Israel in 1991 and ran away, back to the US in 2003. When I read the first paragraph in this intervies, how the author intends to stay in New York I thought typical Israeli, “someday I’ll go back”. I was right. Israeli society is not magical.In actuality it’s quite violent and decadent. I was a policeman in the Shfela for 10 years.
    It’s fortunate many Americans do not of this side of the society. Drugs a rampant, violence domestic and youth are skyrocketing, respect for the law is non-existent, the society is polarized between secular and religious, ashkenaz and sephardis, left and right, rich and poor…there is no moral fabric to hold the society together.
    The one thing I can truly say that Israel has done for me is that it’s made me an atheist. If these are God’s chosen people, there can be no God. My only hope is that my son 16 and daughter 13 will be wise enough to come to the promised land, the US when they’re 18 respectively.

  • I have to disagree strongly. It’s a flawed society that is still trying to integrate after decades together, but it is very much a magical society with a sense of community that I have not seen elsewhere.

  • I went to Israel on aliyah as part of a revolutionary new concept in immigration. Instead of the designation “oleh chadash” I went under the designation “oleh chodesh”. I predetermined that one month of shtuyot would be all I could take so that is what I signed up for. When I arrived ba’aretz, I listed all my assets in the U.S. for the tax ministry officials who seemed quite interested. They kept getting my name wrong and calling me “Yehudi Ashir. I also underwent the prescribed mandatory full body cavity search for wads of currency and jewels. The tax collector who performed the rectal probe did not use lubrication. He told me that “to be an Israeli, you have to be tough!” I spent my month as an oleh chodesh waiting on lines at the Sachnut and various other governmental bureaucracies and sampling the Israeli ambience and cuisine. I grew quite fond of olives and cucumbers. Israeli pizza is quite distinctive! Instead of pepperoni, they use chicken livers. I drove to a number of new settlements to see where I might have lived had I decided to stay longer. An interesting option was a town called “B’nei Bakak” overlooking an Arab shanty town on the West Bank. The Israeli Sabra women were rather standoffish and kept saying “learn hebrew!” when I tried to be friendly and speak to them. So I adapted the “international language” and would just extend my tongue and wiggle the tip at them. I find it amazing that women all over the world understand the “international language”. I visited several kibbutzim but the men I encountered were all depressed looking. When I inquired why they looked so miserable in such a sunny, picturesque little community they replied that, “since their kibbutzim stopped utilizing Volunteers, there are no longer any horny loose volunteer girls from Europe and the U.S. to shtupp. They had to go back to masturbating in the orchards and raiding the dairy barns” The driving patterns in Israel are quite unique. To save road space, Israeli drivers tailgate within eight inches of the car in front of them. I rented a car and drove around for a day and a half straight. I was afraid to slow down to stop because there was always an Israeli driver speeding along right behind me by only inches. The highlight of my month was when I saw a Russian immigrant urinate publicly on a street in Tel Aviv. How did I know he was Russian? His speaking to his associates in Russian gave me a clue. It was then that that deep emotion overcame me and I appreciated what aliyah meant. “L’hyot am chofshi”, to be a free people. And what is freer than a man displaying his circumcised organ under the bright Israeli sun and freely urinating? After my month was up, I returned to my home in the U.S.A. whistling “Ha Tikvah” and “God Bless America”.

  • To: The “Middle”

    What kind of name is “the maddle”? The middle of a doughnut is NOTHING! The middle of a tukhis is the A-HOLE! Which are you?

  • Aw shucks, Froylein is standing up for me.

    Sage, I’m in the middle of a straight line between your ears and it’s kinda hollow in here. I hear an echo echo echo.

    You know what’s funny? The co-founder of this site is an oleh and has been living in Jerusalem for a number of years. I swear, Sage, every time I see a photograph of him, he is surrounded by pretty women that I hadn’t seen before. His Hebrew is so-so, but he makes Israel work for him. He figured out how to make a living there, how to have an active social life there, how to keep himself active in the North American Jewish community and how to view all things Israeli with a measure of understanding. Some things work just fine and others don’t but will, given time.

    By the way, I live in a fair-sized American city and a some months ago I saw a homeless man urinate under a bridge in daytime. I could tell he was born here in the US because I heard him talking to himself and he was a little crazy but definitely a native of the US. Do you think that I packed, left the US and became a critic of the country?

    It’s a matter of attitude to some degree. Israel is a hard place, but it also has many positive attributes and most find a balanced life there, aware of the hardships and absurdities but also appreciating the positive. It takes longer than a month to acclimate to any new place, much less a complicated place and complex society one finds in Israel.

  • Dear “The Middle”: I finally figured out what “the middle” means. You are Lucky Pierre in a 3 way daisy chain. You like to get it in the rear while you give it. Why don’t you give credit where credit is due? At least I put in my month of aliyah. I follow my “emmeth ” which is don’t try to bullshit the bullshitter. I don’t care if your friend sends you pictures of himself posturing with “pretty women”. What is this supposed to indicate? Is he shtupping all of them? What about you. I’ll wager that you are a real shtupper also. Why do you choose to take me on in a battle of wits? Do you think you are capable of prevailing? Instead of sitting there in your middle sized American city watching homeless men urinate, why don’t you go join your friend the “shtupper” in Jerusalem. Maybe, he’ll share his harem with you. I’m sure that you’ll be able to make it work for you too. I have fond memories of my month of aliyah that I will always cherish. Why don’t you give it a month? You’ll love the full body cavity search at the tax office! I guarantee it. Very truly yours, Sage

  • Sage, my multiple visits alone have typically been longer than a month, and I’ve lived there as a student (where I spent my time hanging out with Israelis – not Americans – and those yummy volunteers that have been replaced on kibbutzim by hard-working Thais). But I like my home here just fine. Aliyah is for some people and not for others. At this point of my life, since I am responsible for a son, my decision is predicated not on my needs or desires but rather my reluctance to trust Israel’s leadership or the IDF’s leadership to run things the way they need to be run.

    However, if I were to move there, I’d get along swimmingly. I’d have Israeli friends, American friends, Canadian friends, South African friends and even a few Moroccan friends. I’d probably find a middling job that doesn’t pay enough, a nice home with a nice garden in some small town or other, go to the ocean often and make pilgrimage to beautiful Jerusalem and the Judean Desert regularly. I’d visit my friends in Sderot and commiserate about their lousy fortunes in rockets and real estate, and hang out with my yuppy friends in pseudo-hip Tel Aviv. And all the while, I’ll enjoy bumping into Israelis, new and native, with whom I can discuss things as mundane as lousy American pop music to profound discussions of their heritage and family history – almost always unique and interesting. I can listen to dozens and dozens of accents and ways of brutalizing Hebrew and English, laugh at the self-depracating people I meet all around me, cherish the sophisticated conversations with the many Israelis who are worldly and educated in ways you’d be hard pressed to find in other countries while enjoying a laugh with less educated but street-smart and insightful Israelis who come from backgrounds that didn’t permit them to have the same education their kids are receiving.

    Sure, Israel is full of problems and difficult issues. It’s not an easy place to live or make a living. But Israel is, like so many other places, what you make of it. What YOU make of it. And judging by your fantasy about my sex life, I suspect you’re simply projecting a little and seeking to give expression to your frustrations at not giving it to someone’s rear and not even getting it in yours. People have to like you before they poke you or agree to get poked by you. And, of course, you have to like yourself first.

  • its crazy….over the last 6 months prepping for aliyah ive talked to a lot of people…israelis and old olim who came back…….its obvious that at this point the j.a. and nefesh cant put out the proper info…..aliyah would decrease 50% over night if they did…..and if the birthright trip gave any insight into the real israel versus the disney israel, then aliyah would dip another 10%….and when the economy in america gets better were going to see a grip of americans come back…..this is fact..
    ..so this went from a sincere attempt at aliyah to most likely a prolonged, free wild ass crazy vacation in between zanzibar and india….kind of a home base for a while..but i guess more of a base as far as 80% of israelis are concerned, as the word home doesnt apply to me……..read on…

    being half jewish and raised by my jewish father and growing up in a nonjewish neighborhood, im jewish…and being of karaite male lineage i am more entitled to israel and our interests then most want to think…….whether i want to be or not….( personally id like to be costa rican and sit around staring at all the good looking tourista chicas eating nachitos)…
    but nefeshbenfesh is now in control, and they are having a hard time getting their personnel to understand the law of return…..basically my file disappeared……people are helping you on the phone 1 minute and then they see the asterik and and they refer you to the website and hang up……not only id there no love for me to “feel the dream”, but there is actually resentment…it goes against his upbringing and religion to spend his time assisting a “goy” get into his israel…..and who is this guy…this kid made aliyah to work at nefesh??nope..he cant find a job….hes living off the state…another reason not to settle out there…no jobs…so if this fellow is telling me im shit and hes going to be in charge of my job to an extent, then what the earning power and chance to live do i have considering hes working for $5 an hour before taxes throwing files away while im sitting on vacation counting money stacks……they are going to make this extra hard on me…..my first run in with israeli gvt. dept.s that the israeli kids have been warning me of….and a great example of no seperation of synogogue and state…and i havent even left yet…maybe this is a bad time…i know they have been fighting over who gets to dis me for a few years now…..imagine all the time and energy that wasted that could have been used to bring jews to israel….!!its all politics…and that important to remember…and though the politics are reflective of a people, there are plenty of cool israelis who are jewish, understand history, the importance of family, and just want to live life…..and my theory is that these are the 25% of the jews who have maintained a true jewish bearing, as they have unbroken male lineage…hidden karaites….they dont even know who they are…

    so listen up…if you are a male, single, decent looking,are financially well off, and dont have shit to do with your day, then this applies to you…
    chances are your aliyah plans include marriage at some point….regualr life stuff right???.(uh oh…no civil marriage in israel!!!..one more reason not to go until they figure themselves out…)
    so i dont like to use the word “import”, cause she might be the one talking you into moving back to the u.s. for a better life…..(she might export you)….but it is an option we are going to see more of as israel continues to go downhill, the american economy gets better, and any male jew worth his weight realizes that highest quality jewish women in the world are in israel….(sorry el salvadoran jewish girls)…

    .fact is israel has the one of the highest collective iq’s in the world and the highest % of hot, single chicks per square mile…thats good……but whats bad is when this coincides with a high rate of spousal abuse and male/female wage discrepancy it created an unspoken desperation amongst the females there……
    …lets take advantage of this….so smart, fine, and independant women in a fucked up situation……what more can i ask for???….oh yeah…i can ask for you to be natually gorgeous, sick of struggling in israel, be from a poor family, have a want to go to college but know its pointless in israel to an extent, tired of feeling stuck, tired of seeing all your friends me away and living a good life in america, tired of the sexism that persists throughout the country, and tired of bombings and war, and tired of men in black hats trying to run your lives…….oh yeah…be sephardic….moroccan with a touch of italian would be nice……i understand its extra difficult for women of color in israel…..

    at this point, this seed is planted in the minds of all israeli women on some level….they just dont think its too accessible….
    so its a numbers game…. and there are by my estimates 140,000 single gorgeous chicks walking around that country….it only takes one….it can take weeks or years depending on who you are…it should take me 4-6 months…….many would jump on the opportunity to marry an american man of any jewish background………..again, if your bald, broke, fat, and work at the starbucks, then your in the same game as america..sorry…but still, even you can do good…you might be on the 6 year plan though…
    think of it from their angle….
    american jewish guys are educated…sweet….have money……..they dont drink so much….and they dont hit their wives….we more easily controlled….our heads arent ruined from the army….plus the obvious access to america-easier and less work for more money and lower taxes….!!!a safe environment for her kids…actually owning a house….and so on…
    look at the numbers….more israelis are divorcing quicker and slower to get married…its like they are waiting for something to happen…..
    so its a numbers game…..there are so many hot chicks out there compared to the girls in america….youd have to be an idiot not to come across a half way decent looking broad in 8 months of sitting on the beach and going to nightclubs…..plus, they take care of themselves and dont complain as much…plus they are always cooking good foods…and they have back rub stamina…..so for the right girl we are gold…..so my full time job??? vacation for free in israel for 8 months lounging out…im not touching my fortune…. my goal is talking to as many attractive females as possible….plenty of toosh for the meantime until i find the one i want…then bounce her out to zanzibar island for a month before we head back to the u.s…..i can do this….im semi retired….most karaites jew are before the age of 30……
    so play up the accent, flash the money, make suckers out of the israeli guys….do whatever you have to do…get what you want…and remember, it is okay to be a rude asshole in america….and you can even be a little rough with women…if she ignores you, ask her if she has every heard of the dead sea…that should sum it up…..that 5% of the reason im making aliyah anyways, the freedom to be an asshole….a good thing about israel……..so it’ll start on the plane when i tell hadar to get me a napkin for my drink…..and end when im taking one of the most beautiful women straight the fuck out of israel and bringing her back to california, where we live for free, stack money, and do jewish and israel our way with our kids and haverut…..
    who knows, maybe i find her before i leave from zanzibar, but i also like the idea of a free vacation……not bad….israel government pays me back for all the time i got my ass kicked growing up….and the rabbinate can wet my beak for way back when….allowing them the extra few weeks to move west from kiev and save some of their families while the cossacks were being held off by karaite jews who ended up losing nearly everyone…the first holocaust…
    so make israel work for you…you have a legal right to go there..if anyones going to be made a sucker its not me….

  • thats right…..the correct repsonse……you say nothing and walk on by……there isnt anything you can go say without running into my superior intellect and knowledge of real jewish history, not the mainstream watered down disney rabbinic new history they teach at hillel……..listen, i dont make the rules….the tanach strictly states that lineage runs through the male….and it specifically states that this is the final word and no sages can restructure the g-d;s word to fit their own political needs and or understanding of what jewish needed to be…..and thats leaves your kids confused….
    just go back and reread my friend….its all there…..im the tip of the iceberg….this is always what happend as rabbinate judasim goes downhilll, the karaites come out of the wood work…

  • look…its simple….you either respond or you dont respond…….but this is typical of an american mentally and emotionally assimilated, and or an israeli trying to be american……..so put your name to it….im adam kramer…it says it right there…your the middle…in the middle of getting schooled down…..
    ……and you dont want to be rollin your eyes at people unless your prepared to do it real life…..
    id go read torah and study european history….
    theres going to be a lot of disappointed people one day……

  • look man….ive read your responses to the people above…..your not doing too good here……there seems to be a common theme….you writing jibberish shit and hiding between a pen name……chances are your just pissed cause you know my idea is gold, but your 38, bald, overweight, have credit card debt, a fucked up job,and no special skill set…….sorry..you made your bed and now your going to have to sleep in there for a while…
    listen…..i was more than happy to come do my part in israel…..take less money to live in harsher conditions, do community service, etc……but the majority spoke….and what 80% of israelis have said, secular or religious, is “your welcome in israel because its the law and its not my say so either way, but we cant really be friends, i wont hire you, i wont frequent your shops, you cant date my sister, allow you into my schools,and i will never have you in my house for dinner”

    so why go where im not wanted……??????……thats the one thing ive learned as a jew in the diapora….know who’s who and where you stand with people….
    but ive also learned to take whats mine and survive……and in this case thats israel….and a real good looking sexy women…with the tooshie gadol…

    but the fact remains its my land…my country….and you guys are still my people even though half of you arent the real deal….we all have jewish family, semitic ethnicity, and some form of biblical lineage..

    -your jewish so you have some things in common with me….so open your eyes and think for yourself….that should be the one thing youve learned from israelis if anything….your a bitch to the gvt. regardless of anything else….just like canadians are a their gvt.s suckers and americans are indentured servants to the gvt. run corporations….things arent as they appear……
    all jewish is is the torah….everything you need to know is there….there are no men born men who can add or take out…we can interpret….write….expound….but the rabbis are just people…..sorry……youve done the same thing catholics have done and placed a man in the position of g-d……its just the rabbis were afraid we’d become like christianity if interpretation wasnt controlled, hence the talmud and mishnah and marriage through the female…..wrong….thats not jewish, thats a break off sect called rabbinate that now is seen as the only judaism around because the karaites have been gone for 300 years from europe…..so good news jewish survived, but bad news it surviveda bit misconstrued….and after 2000 years of this, there are literally 10% of the jewish community who arent semtitic in any way shape of form… but jewish being a religion thats fine, but this small demographic has no long term history or so say in judaism…….
    rabbinate have a self destructive mentality that isnt in the tanakh…its not jewish, its talmudish……..hence all the smart jews pushin for secretarian ways for the last 1500 years….even haskalah was a movement to escape the rabbis….we see it today in israel…
    a lot of these people are still biblically lined karaites simply caught up in this temporary reign of rabbinism……they just dont know who they are yet…they have a natural pull away from authority and talmud, and a strong drea to a concept of peoplehood and moral code………these are people with true karaite lineage….the descendants of abraham…..thats was my great grandada 200 generation back….your great grandfather 20 generations back was a german or frenchmen or roman…….still jewish etnically, but religion runs through the man….sorry charlie…
    …if you had a non jewish man in your lineage then its been over…..sorry…i dont make the rules….
    but still, it doesnt matter to me…none of us are relgious…..your still ethnically jewish….a jews a jews a jew…so long as they live a certain way….
    so your welcome in my home for dinner…..

    israel is a great place in comparison to most parts of the world…….but it has major problems….and the #1 problem is information flow…to ourselves and the reso of the world……..info. is power…the israel gvt. keeps this power over their people in 2 ways….first off,they keep the average israeli broke….they feel though this makes the average upper class israeli leave for the u.s. to enjoy their wealth, they feel it immoblizes the masses……they feel its better then making things good economically, and retaining the rich but have a higher risk of the average israeli departing…its a numbers game…….and wait!!! every country does this, just with a different agenda from a different angle for other reasons….

    so again…israel here i come…but on my schedule at my conveinence….when im dont making money here and ready to really get into semi-retirement then youll see me…but until then i will enjoy my youth getting rich in california……

  • Adam, it may have escaped your attention, but Middle’s a highly valued contributor to this blog. He’s a host, you’re a guest. Act accordingly.

  • your joking right???…..anyone who doesnt put a name next to the face is simply hiding behind a computer…..
    and i happened on this blog by accident…i dont do blogs……just giving you guys a different take on things real quick…
    …..as far as act accordingly????….according to who?????……your going to have a real tough time in israel if you are looking for political correctness, respect, or people to act accordingly…….chances are your a spoiled, beyond, assimilated american who happens to have jewish family so you call yourself a jew….in the meantime, your last name is jones, smith, or murphy and you work for a christian company earning peanuts and havent read torah ever…..so if your name is smith, jones, and murphy then it means one of two things-youve only been jewish a few hundred years and/or your family was historically a bunch of busters who switched their name up……..thats not jewish bro…….sorry……..so your the guest, im the host…get it????….
    and until i have made threats or used offensive language to disrespect the term “act accordingly”???…now get off the middle of his nut sack an just wish you didnt blow your aliyah money on being sucker…..im going to quizno’s

  • You’re not the host. You’re an ill-tempered, misogynistic, spoilt brat that has got no business here nor anywhere around civil, well-mannered people. Take your complex-laden rants elsewhere.

    Just for the record, your last name is German, not distinctively Jewish.

  • Adam, you seem a little short on life experience and a little shorter on wisdom. Best of luck with your plans.

    Regarding anonymity, I should tell you that on the basis of the information you’ve provided, I know quite a bit about you within just a few minutes of searching on the internet. I enjoy my anonymity and do try, although I have been guilty of this in the past, not to take advantage of it when I deal with people who are using their real names. You seem like a bright guy and you were obviously hurt by the system in Israel, but you should consider that Karaites have long been considered outsiders.

    Now on to important stuff since you claim to be knowledgeable about Karaite and Jewish history. Tell me what you think of the following summary:

    Beginning in the second half of the eighteenth century, an active intellectual life arose among the Karaites of the Crimea, associated with the arrival of a group of scholars from Lutsk. Notwithstanding the existence of a large number of scholars among these Karaites, however, there was a noticeable shortage of hakhamim and hazzanim, as well as of teachers (melanmedim), in their communities.

    Lithuania was conquered by Russia in 1783, and the Crimea in 1793; the majority of Karaites fell under Russian rule and, together with the rest of the large Jewish population, were placed under special restrictions. At first these laws applied equally to the Karaites, whom the Russians considered Jews. But in 1795 Empress Katherine II of Russia issued a decree that the double tax not be imposed on the Karaites, and, furthermore, that they be allowed to purchase land. For the first time in history, Karaites and Jews were distinguished under law. The schism was deepened by a ban on conversion of Talmudic Jews to Karaitism.

    The policy of distinguishing Jews from Karaites continued into the reign of Czar Nicholas I. In 1827, the Crimean Karaites, and in 1828, the Lithuanian and Galician-Lutsk, were exempted from the military service, which was mandatory for Jews. Further, the Karaites received certain privileges, such as permission to hire Christian servants, receive Russian citizenship on the same grounds as others, and swear their own oath in court, all of which further distanced them from rabbanic Jews. In 1809 Karaites came into open conflict with Talmudic Jews; they demanded that the authorities evict the Talmudists from Trok, maintaining that they were illegal residents. This demand was refused, but in 1822 the Karaites again applied to the administration with the same request, and in 1835 it was granted. The support by the Government Council of the Karaites’ right to reside in any part of the Russian Empire was an important event, as it freed them from required residence in the Jewish Pale of Settlement. The long battle by the Karaites for equal rights ended in 1863, when the Government Council decreed that “Karaites under the jurisdiction of the common laws of the Empire have the same rights alloted to Russian subjects, contingent on their property and monetary holdings.” The only limitation was the ban on Karaites taking people of other religions into their community. The Karaites also succeeded in having their official name changed from “Karaite Jews” to “Russian Karaites of Old Testament Faith,” and later to simply “Karaites.” In practice, however, many points of the new law were not followed. In 1875 Karaites applied to the Minister of Internal Affairs with a petition to order the administration not to call the Karaites “Jews” and not to apply to Karaites laws that were meant for Jews.

    A special contribution to the struggle for equal rights for Karaites, as well as to the collection of Jewish and Karaite documents and manuscripts and their study, was made by Abraham ben Samuel Firkovich early in the twentieth century. Firkovich assembled one of the largest collections of Jewish manuscripts in the world during his travels in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, the Crimea, and the Caucasus. He also published a collection of inscriptions from an ancient Karaite cemetery at Chufut-Kala. On the basis of property inscriptions in manuscripts and dates on gravestones, Firkovich asserted that Karaites settled in the Crimea several centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ and thus carried no responsibility for his crucifixion. Later, he argued for a link between the Karaite faith and that of the Khazars (a Turkic people), who adopted Judaism in the eighth century. Firkovich asserted that Karaites, as non-Talmudic believers and as descendants of the Khazars, were entitled to different treatment than Jews. Although some scholars, contemporaries of Firkovich, noticed quite a few forgeries among the manuscripts that he discovered and on the gravestones, the “Khazar theory” of the Karaites’ descent found a place in literature and persists, despite the strong skepticism of some scholars.

    At the beginning of the twentieth century, the production of Hebrew-language literature and science in the Karaite community ended. A few of the Karaite intelligentsia tried to develop Karaite literature in the Russian language, through printed publications such as Karaite Life and The Karaite Word, which appeared in 1911 and 1913 respectively, but these efforts were short-lived. At the same time, a secular literature in the Karaite language appeared, represented by the works of S. Kobetsky, A. Novitsky, and Z. Abramovich.

  • good…..good….good……doing your reading….so whats your question…..????
    to clarify first off……dont confuse us w/ the karaites of egypt now livng in ramle israel…….they are just as orthodox as the rabbinate orthodox…they can handle their polemics with the sephardic rabbinate leaders if they want……..thats none of my business……

    and yes…..karaism doesnt last in the diaspora..at least in europe..i agree…..again,im ashkenazi and have rabbinate family……i wouldnt even be here if it wasnt for mainstream jewry……too much intermarriage, not enough writers and intellectualism, and too much susceptibilty to christian framework….but remember, it was 15% of world jewry in 1000 c.e….remember all the hidden karaites that followed spinoza to amsterdam in the 1600’s???….these just werent disenfranchised rabbinates, they were the old karaites from way back who’d been exiled or forced at some point to join the rabbinates on the iberian peninsula 400 years previous….they kept their male lineage and when they got a chance to break they did…..
    wow…what a concept….jews assimilating into jews and not giving up their family traditions, history, or cogntive model of what jewish is,even for other jews…parallel this to the experience of the converos, who unevitably some were karaites whether they knew it or not………wow…and remember, at what point do yo say rabbinates stop considering us jewish???….they had a whole halacha revolving around marriage between the sects and a balance of the calendars…..they were at each others synogougue talking and doing business……their were mixed karaite/rabbinate families….this had all been documented by rabbinic sources 10 times over…its just not easy to find…they married us when their community got so small it was either marry the cousin or the shabbas goy….the karaites were essential in refusing certain rabbinate communites with new members, whether they were sincere with the talmud or not…and again, at times were we fucked each other up….when we fell into good facor with a region wed make sure you couldnt come up and take over our businesses and trade routes using your superior intellect and sheer numbers……we kpet you guys out of lithuania for a bit, especially after you had the church kick us out spain….
    but again, we married through the father, were trained swordsmen,and didnt read as much, and we were the settlers……..we were secterian by nature…….but still, time and time again we came through and saved the rabbinates….whether through letting them hide in our communites at certain times, in finding new areas to settle, or simply giving them something to think about…
    look guys…whatim saying is the same coversation we are having today was being held 500 years ago on the streets of kiev..this is nothing new…

    karaite people are ethnic jewish depending on which community and what time period…. they are semitic, they arent cnristian….there was no unique karaite culture, language, and ethnicity………..there are very few european karaites today……..at the point of finkovitch that crimean community hadnt been jewish for centuries……the karaites of troki for example…..700 years ago jewish…after they were brought to a physically remote area and intermarried among the non-jewish populus they werent ethnically jewish after 500 years…….the male lineage had long been broken…the nazis didnt consider them jewish religiously or ethnically….and neither does israel…..they are like 1% semitic at this point and 99% other backgrounds…
    but this was one community…….and what happened, some were mistakenly killed by the ss anywas, while some troki karaites became ss…..they werent jewish, and even if they were lets not place shame them….come on, there were thousands of rabbinate jews who worked as judenrat…so individuals do fucked up shit in hard times to survive…….regardless, they werent jewish….
    so this was another slavic attempt at taking a jew, removing him from his trade, his people , and their family….and slowing christianzing them……the karaites were targeted because we were secterian by nature, a small community, and not susceptible to the talmud……the best way to do this was let the men skip the army and save the their money…..this snowballs the assimilation as well puts a further divide between all remaining karaite communities and the rabbinates…this was happening 300 years previous as well…
    so save me some time and go research the polish-lithuania commonwealth and it’ll become very clear to you….i guess heres the thing to remember……1/5 polish nobility was jewish……..and of that 1/4 jewish nobolity was karaite…….so out of 20 nobles in a room 3 are jewish, 1 karaite, 16 poles…..the thing is that while jewish was only 12% of the pop., the karaites were only 4% of the jewish community, abour 0.04% of the whole polishlithuania country…..so we were small, but had clout……..and had to be dealt with…..
    so what happened and how are we here today?????….simple…..the karaites of kaffa end up on the far end of their trade route…..in kiev…..they chilled there for hundreds of years….get a long…married into rabbinate……there was a huge karaite synogogue in kiev….things were good for a while for everyone……after the cossacks came through the karaites of the area were decimated….loss 95% of their pop…combined with the large rabbinate losses this set the jewish community back drastically….the upside is this cancelled out any beef between the rabbinates and karaites on a secular and commonal level…jews becamse one…no one can escape….remember, any other discrimination was a result of the church up to this point…..this was the first case of anti-semitism…..not anti-jewish…not anti-rabbinic….the cossacks saw all jews as jews regardless of the king wanted to seperate them…..this changed the dimension of the relationship bwtween the karaites and rabbinates….but it was all for not,as 20 years later after the war and the ukranians won, we were basically a group of 2000 men coming back from the front lines on the don river trying to find our families…..there was no community…..you think ww2 was the first time a group of jewish men came out from fighting in the hills only to find their families dead…….?????
    the remaining karaites did the same thing any jew does after a big war….they have lost their family, friends, livlihood……so the remaining karaites ( usually men, as all the woman and children were killed) went to the biggest city…kiev…….someone took a secular rabbinate women as their wife…some became polish….
    life goes on….at this point this is one more jewish group marrying into mainstream jewry that makes the ethncity we know now today as ashkenazi….so there are lots of people out there who think they are rabbinate jews and their great great great grandpa was a great rabbi, but its not true……if they have kept their male lineage then they are carrying the same male line of abraham…..
    the question is where the karaites of kaffa from the first exile, or did they appear after anan ben david’s movement.????…some karaites become rabbinates, beome karaites again..only to become again karaites…this was common…….
    so again…do your reading..its all there…just careful, because all these books have been writeen by rabbinates wheher religious or secualr….so when something good happens the karaites are called jews and therefore we think they are rabbinate as we read about them…when its not good, the modern jews ( the newer jews)are able to play it off like they have no connection to us…its the same thing any country does to the mainstream jewish community when something goes bad….so you should be able to see through it….

  • man…i just reread my post….you guys just got schooled….i wish i can see the expression on your face what else have the rabbis told you??????
    either way, we have to live together……your grandkids ae marrying my grandkids and well probly die for the same reasons at some point……just done be pissing me off in between now and then…
    and again, my ability to sit around and write all day is a testament to how jews live……you take care of your finances at a young age, thus allowing one the ability for intellectual pursuits and family later in life…s0 28 is young to you, but its old most places in the world…the good news is im semi-retired, have a college degree i dont use that i got just so i can say to suckers i have a college degree i dont use, dont “work”, and make 85k a year…….where were you when you were 28?????everything you need to know about life is there..you read torah, hang out with real jews, and know history and everything works its way out naturally….so rabbinates are preserverant when it comes to reading…karaites are perserverant when it comes to hitting the streets to feed our family and keeping our male line alive…i saw a kid the other day at the target….from school…i use to think he was jewish….thats what we thought….but jews dont scan bar codes for mexicans at the target……and his name is jones and hes been jewish for a few hundred years if anthing…..not long enough to become a real jewish man….in the meantime, one more sidenote-go research how turkic languages meshed their way into yiddish a bit….thats from the karaites…..
    and for your buddy…froylein……we are who we are….your in debt, have no job, lost money on a house that you had to borrow $ from your parents anyways, and your car needs to go to the shop….you laugh when christians make jewish jokes, married a jewish woman simply because average america girls dont like you as a person, and think if you buy bagels and say oh vay once a week you have jewish tradition and mentality………it doesnt matter…in 150 years the jews of america will either be israeli or tucked away somewhere in an ultra orthodox community…….this is what happens…to the karaites..and to the american reform movement…any wishy washy secular community will fade……so again, i’ll still be here,but your great grandkids will be christian or muslim….so thats why im the host and your the guests…..
    i tell you what…..you say youve done your research on me…first you lie because there is nothing on me anywhere..i really dont do computers and blogs…and its inconsequential…who are you….???…you should respect people privacy…to tell another jew you have them on a list is a scary thing…..my brother is conservative rabbi to help you put things in perspective…
    but if you want a challenge i would respect your investigatory skills if you can tell me what i do to earn so much freakin money while i sit in my hottub sipping banano licuados…….i would be impressed with that….

  • okay fellows…my last post…..to be honest, i feel ive done all i can to educate you…….you, not being you 2 suckers, but the few people who read this blog….
    again, i dont blogs, play on computers, and partake with things called “jewlicious”…step back for a minute..what the fuck…jewlicious…??…this is whats happened to you guys…..????…..
    and oh yea…it looks like reserching me you the saw the vacation photos…..their mislabeled…the first set was nicaragua and the second belize…..you see how i live???..and i got paid for that vacation…..

    so heres some info. written by the mainstream , contemporary, politically correct demographic..
    enjoy the facts boys….

    KAFFA (print this article)
    By : Herman Rosenthal J. G. Lipman

    ARTICLE HEADINGS:
    Under the Tatars.

    Town in the Crimea, Russia. It existed as a Greek colony at the beginning of the common era, and, like the rest of such colonies, it undoubtedly had some Jewish inhabitants. It was destroyed in the second century, and was rebuilt as Kaffa. Inscriptions bearing the dates 909 and 1018 have been found in the Rabbinite synagogue; from these it is seen that the older settlement had a well-organized Jewish community.
    In 1266 the new town was established by the Genoese in the vicinity of the old one, and among its inhabitants were both Rabbinites and Karaites, as is indicated by an epigraph on a scroll of the Law, preserved in the Karaite synagogue, in which one Shabbethai, the son of Isaac, announces his gift of the scroll to the Karaite synagogue of Kirim (Sulchat) in 1274. The Ark of the Covenant of the Rabbinite synagogue of Kaffa bears the date 1309. Another scroll of the Law, preserved in the same synagogue, was dedicated by Eleazar ben Jacob to the community of Sulchat, and bears the date 1320 -50.
    An inscription in the Karaite synagogue, dated 1409, bears the signatures of Isaac, son of Moses, and Sarah, daughter of Moses. A tombstone, bearing the date 1457, is now used as a cover for the synagogue well at Kaffa. Another slab, preserved in the museum of Kaffa, once served as the gravestone of Rabbi Abraham, son of Naḥmu, who died Feb. 1, 1502. Still another tombstone, dated 1508, bears the name of Rabbi Joshua, son of Rabbi Meïr Ashkenazi of Taman. There are also gravestones dated 1540 and 1553.
    Johann Schültberger, who from 1394 to 1427 traveled in Europe, Asia, and Africa, states in his description of Kaffa that there were two sects of Jews there with separate synagogues, and that there were 4,000 Jewish houses in the suburbs. In the constitution of the Genoese colonies on the Black Sea, issued at Genoa Feb. 28, 1449, the bishops of Kaffa are directed not to oppress the Greeks, Armenians, Jews,and peoples of other denominations, and not to interfere in the affairs of other confessions, but to be content with supervising the moral welfare of their own communicants. In the event of the failure of the bishops to comply with the decisions of the councils the latter and the board of elders will, it is announced, be required to furnish to Jews, Greeks, and Armenians protection from robbery and from unjust exactions.
    Under th e Tatars.
    During the rule of the Tatars, the Russian czar Ivan III., Vassilivich, had his Jewish representative Khoza Kokos at Kaffa. Zacharias de Guizolfi also resided at Kaffa, as is seen from the letters of Ivan III. to his ambassadors. These letters show that the Kaffa Jews had intimate commercial relations with the Jews of Kiev.
    Martin Bronevski, who visited the Crimea in 1578, in his “Tatariæ Descriptio” (Cologne, 1595), says that the inhabitants of Kaffa—Turks, Jews, and Christians—cultivated beautiful gardens and vineyards, extending over more than two miles. The khan collected annual tribute from the Tatars, Jews, Circassians, and others. For the ransom of prisoners of war the foreign ambassadors engaged the services of Jews and other merchants. The Dominican John de Luca (1625) states that in his time Kaffa was inhabited by Jews. The Crimean khan Mohammed Girai (1654-66) ordered his representative not to interfere with the Jew Mordecai, who intended to sell three slaves in Kaffa or in Karasu, and who had paid for his license.

  • uppp. one more inconsistency in your philosophy, approach to life, and respect level as coincides with saying whatever you will to whoever to win an argument when you think no onw is following up on you……but that doesnt work this day in age…why???because everything you argued is on file above and is contradictory…

    im apparently wrong for going to israel primarily to take a wife…..im shallow, callous, and a womanizer….
    some would say im respnsible to my community, value my ancestors, respect my family tradition, and am planning my life as i see fit….if i was going out there and converting too orthodox just so i can be positioned to buy a wife for 100k then i understand your questioning me…
    you write:
    “You know what’s funny? The co-founder of this site is an oleh and has been living in Jerusalem for a number of years. I swear, Sage, every time I see a photograph of him, he is surrounded by pretty women that I hadn’t seen before. ”
    this is a measure of ones aliyah success?????….i understand the amount of tooshie a single, male oleh gets is, in a sense, of meausre of the ultimate goal of social intergration…..but if you are the host and looking to help people here, why dont you make a comment about his job, friends, or hebrew language skills first….then comment on his sex life……….first, they can be his cousins for all you know, as you admit you ve never seen them before….second, you should be encouraging respect for females……third, i was right….me and you are in the same boat…..we all love the israeli woman….difference is they actually like me….why?..because im an american jew, but i dont think, talk, or live like one, but still from america……….the difference for me and your krew is i have all my hair,dont have to set foot in a office for a real job for another 12 years, have 4 vacation planned and paid for from croatia to india to bolivia, a fat down paymet on a house in haifa ( fuck that plan now….not dropping money out there so one day the rabbinate can gain control and nationalize my property……)…and all day to point out your inconsistencies arekeep my skilld sharp…….so i get israeli women whether i want to or not…you?? not so much…..
    okay..i think nefeshbenefesh is hiring rabbinate jews who made aliyah with no balls or real understanding of life outside their parents house, and now have to work a job talking to me as i plan the israel vacation of a lifetime…
    okay..my work here is done….but i might come back and insult you later if i get bored…adios mexicans..

  • Wow, that was really long and convoluted. Be sure that the wife you find has the patience of a rock. You know, for the longwindedness.

    First of all, I didn’t research you in depth because I don’t care. I could, but I simply don’t care. My point is that anonymity can be valuable if you value privacy as I do.

    Second, the measure of successful aliyah isn’t pretty girls or anything of that sort. I was trying to suggest to Sage that attitude matters, since his stinks. There is no standard for successful aliyah. Each individual is going to make aliyah for different reasons and measure personal success or failure differently. However, your attitude will have a critical influence on whether you succeed or not.

    Third, I understand your bitterness at being rejected by the authorities despite your historic connection to the very faith from which they’re excluding you. You have a right to be angry. Your conclusion, however, is to treat people like cattle. Is that really how one searches for a wife?

    Fourth, grow up. You have no idea how much I earn or how I look but you keep going on and on with your silly guesses. If your income is what you say it is, I hope you can also say “two-earner family” because that Moroccan woman you plan to grab from her poor family will have to work in order to help make ends meet. But if you impress yourself by throwing out a salary figure, good for you. I measure people by other standards, and you still need to work on some of those measures, young Karaite that you are.

    Have a nice trip around the world and best of luck on finding that young Moroccan lass. I hear there are a bunch of them in Sderot and they’re dying to get out of rocket range. Of course, you’d have to date them first and for that you’d have to put yourself in rocket range. Now there’s a vacation destination for you.

  • thats all?????……..sorry guy….fingerpuppets at your moms passover, reading heeb, and dacing to ub40 at your bar mitzvah isnt jewish….sorry…i dont make the rules…even rabbinates will tell you that…
    and i dont earn a salary…..im givng gifts out of respect that take the shape of monetary form…..i think someone has been living in america too long mr midsection…
    so missed froyleins comment regarding the origins of my last name…..here you go…
    Kramer
    German (also Krämer), Dutch, and Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name for a shopkeeper, peddler, or hawker, from an agent derivative of Middle High German, Middle Low German kram ‘trading post’, ‘tent’, ‘booth’. This name is widespread throughout central and eastern Europe.

    so a few things…..cramers, kraemers, and craemer are sometimes jewish……but you will never meat a german with the kramer spelling, which means every kramer is of jewish lineage……go compare speliings on israeli facebook and you’ll see the kramer rendition dominant 90% of the time….
    of all the yiddish names and their meanings,( occupation, town of origin, family position, etc.) only about 8% refer
    to trades that require one to travel….for example, there were shoe makers, tailors, shopkeepers, etc….and then there were the guys out on the traderoutes going from town to town….again, rabbis werent doing this…..this was predominantly karaites…….
    so there are 2 theories….either my ancestors were on the old route from kaffa to kiev and stayed, (when in relation to the cossack wars i dont know), were given a name by the rabbinate to describe their occupation…
    or the 2nd, that perhaps my ancestors werent traveling salesmen and kramer was simply a name assigneed to people coming from my region and background who wre now merging with the rabbinates for personal, religious, political, family,business, or “safety in number” reasons….same reasons its always happened….
    so that being the case, kramer was a derivitive of the karasim……..
    anything else you guys want to do…your losing a debate with a karaite……your rabbis would be pissed…..

  • ” the word “anonymity” is simply a large word used by weak minded people to justify their intelligence as coincides with their lack of fortitude, beliefs, and self respect in regards to their anticipated inconsistencies and/or lack of structured beliefs…..”
    -adam kramer,
    an excerpt from his new book…
    “get thesesuckers off my nut sack: european descended karaites who hid amongst the rabbinates for 400 years and now looking for other karaites in order to poke healthy fun at the confused jews….

  • A search of Germany’s online official phonebook provided 15,126 hits for Kramer (which is proper German spelling BTW). Karaites, if you’ve read above, are not Ashkenazim and are not descendants of the survivors of the Rintfleisch and Armleder progroms. The most likely reason for your name is that your ancestors were plain Germans.
    The Yiddish-speaking rabbinates would rather have used “soycher” or even “Kroyterer” rather than the unbeknownst to them “Kramer” / “Krämer” / “Kremer” etc.

  • ok…first off you should go study the way chritian countries tried to de-judaize the jewish population….erasing, twisting the history was one part…remember, antisemitism was such a phenemon in germany that i was actaully a german who coined the term in the 1860’s….
    but dont tell it to me….tell it to the tens of thousands of rabbinate and hidden karaite kramers in israel and america and russia……

  • alright….we’re starting to see whos who here…..looks like i caused a divide between froylein and the middle…..what the middle saw was that froy was willing to deligitimize 10’000’s of european, american, and israeli jews with the last name kramer simply because he doesnt like or agree with me…….
    the middle doesnt use those tactics, he will simply attack the person…….hence, the medication comment…
    remember middle, you are the host and therfore people are looking to you for support and answers….dont ostracize those that might or might not take medications……all your saying is their is a negative stigma attached to those who suffer from mental ailments…i guess we should ridicule all the old ladies who survived the war who still wake up from nightmares every night and take meds to calm them down……..or all the soldiers who suffer psot trauamtic stress and need medicinal help to live a normal life……..
    lets be more compassionate here goes…and im supposed to be the asshole…….
    and froylein, you are right…….there were plenty of shtetle and villages atacked where no karaites were..more than those 2….and there were plenty of non-rabbinate villages…..but the cossacks didnt differentiate….look, in order to understand your history you need to learn the history of recorded history first, then you also need to study the history from a non jewish angle….read the history of the cossacks from the vantage point of ukranians…they had a special dislike for karaites……they say the poles sold the cossack people into the hands of the jews……and the cossacks were on the front line of that magnate representation….and we were tough…..and wealthy.. and we fought……we had all the bad qualites of regualr jews mixed with what they saw as all the bad qualities of the poles…….they were actaully on a mission to root out this community….it was their hatred for the karaites that spurred their hatred for all jews……sorry bout that by the way…….
    so go read…i have all day for two nudniks…

  • Rintfleisch and Armleder weren’t villages. Their pogroms were centuries before the Tsar instumentalised the cossacks in pogroms in Russia, and considerably long enough before the mandatory naming waves of the West in which Jews could actually pick their own lastnames. I’m not quite sure you know where the Crimea is, let alone Poland and Russia. That said, the literally hundreds of books on European Jewish history I’ve got here back my claims. You have to understand that historical studies are not a combination of gut-feeling, wishful thinking and positive revisionism.
    And don’t you worry about Middle and me, we’re still chums.

  • Very chummy, especially because I was being sarcastic.

    And Adam, you are rewriting history here. The Karaites were protected in Russia and considered separate from Jews. That history I quote in the comment above speaks about this.

    By the way, you should know that I consider Karaites to be Jewish. Of course, I have no authority of any kind over official determinations of who is a Jew, so at least be comforted that one of the contributors to Jewlicious sees you as Jewish. And, by all means, go for that Moroccan girl and best of luck with your future marriage.

  • i know what your last name means……froylein…
    its gone thru some changes over the years but it means at what point your descendant came into shul one day with a big fro….except it was pushed back on his head because he went bald at ayoung age after trying to debate the local karaites…….and because there was already a famous rabbi named heirlein, they just called you fro line……now known as froylein…..you see???

  • what is your definition of protected????…if there was no negative stigma attached to karaites, why would they need protection…and certain communities did at certain points need protection or fall into good favor, but this wasnt all coomunities all the time……
    and Rintfleisch and Armleder were not ethinc ukranian….they werent slavic….they werent rus…..
    they were austrian or german…….yes, these are pogroms…but in mainstream jewish history pogroms typically refer to either 1648ish or the 1880’s…..
    but this has nothing to do with what we’re talking about my fro headed point deviator…..so know, in 1300 its hard to know who was here…but very few karaites in germany i suspect and the cossacks were still frolicking the in the hill for another century……i dont htink my family was over there….at this point we were lounging out in kaffa and hadnt made it to kiev yet……
    or i guess we could have been from one of the karaite communities in turkry or armenia and came north to see you guys and chill…….
    so whats

  • oh yeah, middle…thanks for the well wishes……..and i too consider you my brother……..just funny looking and not as smart…….

  • I don’t know, Adam. Unlike you, I know how to spell, and unlike you, I met my wife without resorting to cattle herding maneuvers.

    And now, excuse me while I go brush my full head of hair.

  • Muffti has told me so, and if Muffti already admits that another male could indeed be handsome, there must be something to it.

    That, and per definitionem, Jewlicious is the best-looking J-blog out there.

  • I feel so…abused! I’d like people to appreciate me for my intellect and instead, they all want to focus on my looks.

    😉

  • i dont what to believe anymore with you 2………..
    but i can make you a monetary bet….i will western union you 500$ today if either of you can present a photo of yourself at age 28 displaying a juvenile hairline fuller than mine…..it doesnt exist guys….ive got the hair…..not you….me…..
    either way it’ll fall out and i know it so i enjoy it now….regardless, thats not what we are to talk about….

    look…we all our own history and our understandings of things….the important thing is we are debating, figuring things out, and learning……this is better than watching football, smoking dope, or becoming intrigued with hinduism……

    so i think we have more in common than we might think…..
    so you guys are well read…… i do my reseach and find it hard at times to navigate through the unbiased facts and the simple anti-semitism as manifests in familial slander that arised with this issue………im fairly confused about khazaria……i have some ideas…..
    can anyone educate me on this????…….(yes,, a ghetto karaite zionist asking for help…..mark this day down)…
    -my basic understanding is that about 20,000-50,000 people converted….basically the nobilty and power structure…
    they were a small pop. in comparison to all the other jewish communites that came to this tolerant land….there were jews comong from all direction….karaites from babylonia and rabbinates from the rhine….my understanding of the khazar pop. was heathens, christians, muslims, and jewish…..the non-jewish khazars faded in to gen. pop after the khazaria fell, while the khazarian jews ( no longer converts at this point, as after 200 hundred years of marrying into rabbinate and karaite jewry they were largely ethnically and semitically jewish at this point and really didnt differ too much from the old school jews….) assimilated into their community, th larger ashkenazi/jewish/semtic/ bulk of european jewry…
    it seems to day as khazar is one of arguably one hundreds of small ethnicites that came and went that on some tiny level that now compose modern day ashkenazi……..again, in america most of our family came from russia so we associate it with certain names, culture, appearnace, and so on….but what about ashkenazi in america in 1850 prior to 2 million ashkenazi coming here, who were from germany????……..so we’ll always be ashkenaz, but the composition of us change slowly over the years……and it seems these terms will be all but useless in 200 years in israel as sephardic and ashkenaz remesh and become basically the same people as we were thousands of years ago…….
    so id have to do the math, but it would seem as if 1/50 american jews( or jews anywhere who came from this region, karaite or rabbinic)are technically 1-5% khazar,and 95-99% whatever else composes ashkenazi……..

    so anyone with any insight let me know……i

  • and guys…..lets be honest here……we blogging……i think there is a relationship between the facts that when i had a beautiful girlfriend i didnt blog, and now im single, bored, and now blogged all day for the last week..
    im a computer nerd whether i like it or not…..and ive been on both sides of this…..so its say safe to say none of us having a gorgeous, cool girl we are excited about hanging out with because were sitting on the machshev having a salami fest…..
    so that being the case, lets focus on the aliyah aspects and continue on the historical topics…….
    and blogging isnt a five paragerph essay, its like a conversation…you type what you say how you would say it…that being the case, lets focus on the meat and not the packaging…..in other words, i dont need to waster times spelling correctly and inadvertenly waste valuable typing time for real shit….you know?…and again, when you have a 142iq that has manifested into working 2 hours a month at 3k an hour at the age 28, then you dont need to spell right…….okay…so what are your takes on my understanding of khazaria…am i missing something?????

  • $500?

    Make it a $1000 plus another $1000 to charity of my choice and I’ll consider having ck send you a photo of me well past 28 with lots and lots of hair.

  • I’m 29 and have got waist-length hair.

    Apart from that, somebody who knows how to spell knows how to spell even if he’s in a hurry. There’s no part in your Broca’s and Wernicke’s area that makes you misspell when you’re not putting effort into your writing unless your orthography is bad to begin with.

  • hi guys. i saw your blog and wanted to join in. ive been considering aliyah for some time. im worried about my ability to fins a job in my sector. im a professional cake decorator from the albany conectionary arts university cuma de laude. i guess we’ll see……
    so i enjoyed the history lesson above.
    this adam guy is great. if we had 10,000 of him in israel a lot of problems would be solved. regardless, my name is jones and my great great grandfather on my mothers side was a great rav in belarus. but then froylein, remember that at the time of the alsace the karaites werent ashkenazi semites, but turkic semites. understand that the jewish population of germany moved east to present day poland/ukraine to escape this travesty….so when the karaites merged with the ashkenazi 200 years later they descendants became ashkenazi. draw a parallel to a ashkenazi jew who moved to spain and was named ashkenazi and now 500 years later he is sephardic.
    and adam. i like that idea. make israel work for you. i guess its better your coming to israel, building the popualtion, spending money around town, then sitting in america dating a girl from the reform temple.
    talk soon fellows. shlomo
    but i know what he’s saying about the karaites. i went to day school with a kid and i vaguely remember him telling about some sort of european hidden jew converso type thing. it didnt mater though ,as his mother was jewish and the family went to the conservative temple.
    alright dudes!

  • of course you do……because its your trick…….i learned it from you middle froline…….its a great way ti win an argument…have an extra guy on the sidelines…

  • hey fellas…..listen……my sister is half jewish half combodian, adopted by a converso lady whose grandfather was an incan indian but practices mormonism…..can her nieghbors make aliyah???

  • ATTENTION FRUMMIES AND SABRAS: I AM CONTEMPLATING TAKING A VACATION IN ISRAEL THIS SUMMER AND I WOULD APPRECIATE ADVICE ON HOW TO COMPORT MYSELF WHILE TRAVELING AROUND JERUSALEM. I HAVE BEEN RAISED TO RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN. I WOULD BE INCLINED TO OFFER PROTECTION TO A DEFENSELESS WOMAN IF I OBSERVED THAT SHE WAS IN SOME KIND OF DISTRESS. HOWEVER, I DO NOT WANT TO GO TO ANOTHER SOCIETY AND GET INVOLVED IN GRATUITOUS MAYHEM. PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR OPINION AS TO WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST REACTION IN THE FOLLOWING SCENARIO:

    I am taking a nice scenic bus ride in Jerusalem. A woman gets on the bus with her bag of groceries, pays her fare and sits on the only remaining available seat. A bunch of bearded men dressed in black start yelling at her and gesticulating wildly. The woman persists in remaining in her seat and the men start to pummel her and drag her from her seat. Her bag of groceries gets torn apart and the various items fall on the floor and are purposefully trampled upon by the men who proceed to slap and punch her. SHOULD I:

    A. Sit in my seat, mind my own business and make believe that nothing is going on?

    B. Join in and help the men punish the offending woman?

    C. Yell out to the men that they are making too much noise and should go about their business more quietly?

    D. Take photographs to show to the people back home.

    E. Pick out the most offensive of the black clad bearded men, punch him in his bearded mouth and drag him by his beard to the door and throw him off of the bus. After throwing the bearded bastard off of the bus, the next step would be helping the woman gather her groceries and escorting her back to her seat, stopping along the way to kick any other persisting bearded assailants in their baytsim .

    MY NATURAL PREDILECTION WOULD BE TO GO WITH ANSWER “E” BUT I WOULD APPRECIATE THE INPUT OF SEASONED ISRAELI FRUMMIES AND SABRAS SO I CAN MENTALLY PREPARE MYSELF FOR THE POSSIBILITY THAT I MIGHT HAVE TO GO AGAINST MY NATURAL INCLINATIONS. WHAT WOULD AN ISRAELI FRUMMY OR SABRA DO UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES?

    In appreciation for your kind advice:
    Samuel Nosherman
    SamuelNosherman@yahoo.com

  • Thanks Sage.

    “Samuel Nosherman” doesn’t appear to exist other than in some very odd, sometimes funny, postings on the strangest websites.

  • I have attempted to make aliyah a few times when I was young. I had just received my Ph.D. in psychology and human developement and workig with autitistic and retraded hidre. I was a bit afaraid to move without a year to be ready and was turned down ata wonderful job at a mental health clinic in Netanya. I understand how I was thought of as weak- minded, and I was scared but tought a year would have me reday. I tried again but developed a hernia and was much confused about receiving surgery, so I went home with a woman who has now been my wife going on 37 years.

    I would not like to work full time in Israekl now, but have thought that with some health problems I might be able to try aliyah again. I loved being an oleh chadas, but not so much just a tourist, as I found that to be very lonely.

    Just wondered what your thoughts might be. My wife s not as enthusiastic as I am, and I do need her for emotiona support. I love Israel, and try to do good Jewish things as much as I can now.

    If you can thoughtfully comment, I would appreciate it.

    Sincerely yours,

    Gerald Rubin, Ph.D.

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