This from JTS Chancellor-elect (yes, amazing that all of this happens before he’s officially even the chancellor) Arnie Eisen, via a JTS press release:
“I believe, along with the great majority of my colleagues on the JTS faculty, that the CJLS, by voting in equal numbers for two teshuvot, provided halakhic authorization for the ordination of gay and lesbian rabbinical and cantorial students. That permission having been given, I believe that the nature of our communities in contemporary America, the moral convictions we hold, and the mission of JTS, argue strongly for accepting gay and lesbian students for ordination.”Moreover, the decision to ordain gay and lesbian clergy at JTS is in keeping with the longstanding commitment of the Jewish tradition to pluralism. That commitment has been all the more central to Conservative Judaism. Pluralism means that we recognize more than one way to be a good Conservative Jew, more than one way of walking authentically in the path of our tradition and of carrying that tradition forward. It means, too, that we respect those who disagree with us and understand that in the context of all that unites us, diversity makes us stronger.”
Chancellor-elect Eisen also stated that JTS has no plans to take up the question of gay and lesbian commitment ceremonies or marriages–that issue will be up to the CJLS and individual rabbis and congregations.
Eisen’s complete letter is here.
The application deadline for the September 2007 incoming class has been extended until June 30, to accommodate any new applications that may be submitted as a result of this announcement. Application information is available by contacting: The Rabbinical School at (212) 678-8817 or www.jtsa.edu/rabbinical and the H.L. Miller Cantorial School at (212) 678-8036 or www.jtsa.edu/cantorial.
Well, I know I am not Orthodox, but I cannot ever be Conservative after this. I got the long e-mail from JTS. They are re-interpreting and re-interpreting. I feel that in the end, Torah commandments do count for something, and I accept Leviticus 18, v.22
it’s the gap between what is written in the Torah, which may have reflected a point of view at that time frame, and what happens when times change.
Until the past 40-50 years or so, these people were persecuted for who they were.
Now this has changed to the point where it is against the law, to discriminate against them and they have legal marriage rights in many countries, and even in the USA in some states.
IMO, the type of gayness that was discussed in the Torah, was a type of forced rape and multiple partners as we saw in the parsha discussing Sdom.
Today we are dealing with couples who are monogamous and wish to live as hetero couples and have a need for religious ritual and other observances, even in some of their cases where they would acknowledge their sin in this one area they strive to grow in Torah and so forth, and have a need for comfort, council, healing as needed. And in fact, many of the Frum ones have tried to be hetero, and even as I cannot understand their predicament, they have in many cases walked away from such a marriage, or not been able to pursue the hetero lifestyle.
So this is their reality and even if you pity them, which is wrong and I am not suggesting, they are entitled to develop as Jews.
Steves Rick has drunk the Kool-Aid:
IMO, the type of gayness that was discussed in the Torah, was a type of forced rape and multiple partners as we saw in the parsha discussing Sdom.
Today we are dealing with couples who are monogamous and wish to live as hetero couples
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…well, at least that’s what the carefully airbrushed, Talbots-wearing lezzie couples on TV say. But the reality of the gay world is still much closer to the Sodom-like model of compulsive promiscuity and exploitation.
This is borne out by the data coming from Scandinavia, Holland, and Canada – extending civil protections and marriage rights has not significantly altered the norm of compulsive promiscuity in the gay “community”.
Homosexuals still average upwards of 10 sexual partners a year – and it often tops 100 for dedicated club/bath-goers. And over 80 percent of “faithful” gay couples report that their relationship is open to other sexual partners.
The gay rights movement came into being at the same cultural moment at which millions of heteros started living out of wedlock. An entire legal/cultural structure was created to accommodate those heteros.
If gays wanted to live monogomously, they could be doing so right now. They aren’t – and don’t.
And Judaism is entitled to make a judgement call on this, based on its own ideal of committment and fidelity in intimate relations.
“they are re-interpreting and re-interpreting”…yeah, that’s why it’s called THE LIVING TORAH, as opposed to a static one. Interpretation is needed to address every area of life, including medical, scientific, technological, and social issues. Why is it ok for Orthodox to decide that a new water boiler makes it permissible for ill people and children to use hot water from the tap on Shabbat, but all of sudden they can’t make a call any new interpretations about sexuality? That’s ridiculous.
Here’s one for you: if a man plugs an electric vibrator in and leaves it on before shabbat, can he use it on his partner? Sure..double mitzvah to please your wife on Shabbat. Can a single man use it on himself…well, just don’t cum or you’ll have to go to the mikvah in the morning. Can he use it on a male partner without having actual sodomy using his own penis? Hmm? Actual homosexual anal sex…uh oh..now he is damning himself to a bad spot in the world to come???
Yes, Ben-David, Jewish scholars should take a look at these issues, but that doesn’t give you the right to say things like “Talbot wearing lezzie couples…” what high-end conservative men’s sportwear did you put on this morning dude?
And yes, Chutzpah needs to do less blogging and more dating…
oh, and if 40-something hetero jewish ortho men on the Upper West side wanted to live monogomously they could be doing so right now, but they aren’t and don’t.
BD, it is not a q of drinking the KA, there are many in that group who are monogamous. It is infantile to think that all of them are promiscuous, especially as they age. Just like the age group for hetero u will have more promiscuity will be teens late to early 20’s, same there.
The issue anyway is why can’t someone be a Rabbi or not.
Things like statistics for which you provide no link do not take human dignity into account.
Ben-David, I agree with you 100 percent.
I think that the problem and the background to the entire JTS debate about homosexual ordination is that “mainstream” society now tends to condone/ accept as normative heterosexual practices such behaviours as anal sex and fellatio which were previously considered as totally un-tzniut/ beyond the pale. To put it in a dramatic fashion, if heterosexuals have sinned by condoning/ accepting the above practices, it then becomes very difficult to prohibit such practices to non-heterosexuals.
I do not condone/ accept the above practices, I am just commenting on what I feel to be a morally weakened society.
Yeah, nobody ever got his dick sucked before homosexuals began to appear in the freewheeling 1960s and started putting their AIDS-diseased mouths on everyone’s junk. Before that, normal, God-fearing straight people (and those were the only kind of people that existed) had missionary sex, in the dark, with their eyes closed, under an electric blanket, on Friday nights only, for the purpose of procreation. Damned queers, showing women how to orally pleasure a man!
Dave – honestly, you would never allow a woman to give you a blowjob? Really? Even if she didn’t make you buy her dinner first?
How old are you? Are you a virgin? Impotent? Abstinent by choice? Married?
Inquiring minds want to know what kind of male doesn’t condone fellatio because I have yet to meet one in my 42 years of life.
Chutzpah.
I am 48 years old. I am divorced and I was in 3 relationships before that. I think fellatio is disgusting. In fact when I told my various girlfriends (when they offered to do it) that I was not really interested, they were actually relieved, and they never bothered to suggest it again, and in fact my ex-wife said so (that she found it unpleasant for her).
I am not Orthodox, but when I am not in a relationship I try and usually am abstinent.
On the other hand, I think cunnilingus is perfectly normal.
Okay, could someone just unambiguously say this is a good thing? I think it is great that JTS is finally recognizing the reality that openly gay people can be great rabbis. (Because it’s not as if there haven’t been gay rabbis before this – they’ve just been in the closet). Would our good sticklers for the literal interpretation of Torah like to justify other Torah laws, like those which permit a father to sell his daughter into slavery? No, I didn’t think so. Jews have always interpreted the Torah. The question is with what values do people interpret the Torah – with an open and compassionate point of view, or from a rigid and insulting perspective?
Steves Rick wrote:
there are many in that group who are monogamous. It is infantile to think that all of them are promiscuous, especially as they age. Just like the age group for hetero u will have more promiscuity will be teens late to early 20’s, same there.
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Well, no – not if you’re willing to look at the facts, starting with the massive GMHC study conducted in the 1980s, and continuing through the recent study conducted by the Dutch Ministry of Health (they were trying to figure out why more gays weren’t taking advantage of their right to marry).
The picture is very clear – compulsive promiscuity is the norm in the gay subculture. When people get too old to be “star attractions” they may form permanent relationships – but those couplings are usually open and not monogomous. There is also a lot of prostitution and exploitation.
A thriving gay “community” is noted for its bars, baths, beaches and other venues for anonymous hookups. This is the infrastructure, the “town square” of the gay world.
So when you write:
The issue anyway is why can’t someone be a Rabbi or not.
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uh, being a Rabbi means upholding, practicing, and promoting Torah values and Jewish practice – and the Torah quite clearly opposes the worldview and practices that are the norm in the gay “community”.
In particular:
– the Torah’s humanism recoils at the degradation of the individuals who engage in these behaviors, and grieves at the depression and substance abuse with persist despite the “out-n-proud” rhetoric.
– the Torah’s sense of social justice opposes the prostitution and exploitation that inevitably accompany these social structures.
– the Torah’s spiritual path opposes the coarsening of the individual, and the misuse of sexuality by divorcing it from emotional intimacy and commitment.
Someone who is so invested in their homosexuality that they have come out and embraced it are sending a a clear message: they are diametrically opposed to core Torah values. How shall such a person be a Rabbi?
The folks who think this is a great thing would probably be among the first to shriek “hypocrite” at a hetero Rabbi who had a fling (indeed, the spittle-spewing Chutzpah has already made such a rhetorical swipe). So why is it not hypocritical for a gay person to swear up and down that they will uphold the Torah – when they have proclaimed the exact opposite in their actions?
I mean, not that a single word of your ridiculous assertions about gayness are in any way worth addressing…
But how can you back up the assumption that by virtue of what you’ve decided applies to al gay people, this means that anyone who will become a rabbi at JTS will be compulsively promiscuous and non-monogamous, and apparently there is no alternative?
Incidentally, I can’t help but think of a number of ultra-Orthodox rabbis who have abused young boys and are still called ‘rabbi’. Strange how that works.
Do you go to JTS? Do you know any of the gays and lesbians in the student body? Do you know anything about their private lives, their romantic lives, their commitments to Judaism? Do you know any gay people, period?
The descriptions you make of the gay community sound like a whole hell of a lot of the hetero people I know. I know plenty of hetero rabbinical students, conservative and orthodox, who hook up left and right, cheat on their girlfriends, and don’t hold to any Torah-based ethics regarding such behavior.
And yet you assume, simply by virtue of being gay, that not only are such behaviors to be assumed, but you practically require it of them.
Probably because you have serious fear and prejudice of gay people.
Oh wait: I know, I know:
“I don’t hate gays. I just don’t want them to exist.”
That’s how it works, right?
Ben-David – I would encourage you to remove your nose from your “research” and actually meet a few gay/lez people in person. After you do this, you will find such a varied experience of lifestyles, viewpoints, and attitudes towards sex, that the “data” you spout off will be complete nonsense.
Just as there people touted “science” proving how greedy, selfish, and evil Jewish people are, there are people who skew all sorts of viewpoints and data to point a picture of the gay community that is degrading and dehumanized.
It is a pity that a Jew practices the same kind of slander suffered by his people for millenia.
the Donkey wrote:
But how can you back up the assumption that by virtue of what you’ve decided applies to al gay people, this means that anyone who will become a rabbi at JTS will be compulsively promiscuous and non-monogamous, and apparently there is no alternative?
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and Brian jumped in with:
I would encourage you to remove your nose from your “research†and actually meet a few gay/lez people in person. After you do this, you will find such a varied experience of lifestyles, viewpoints, and attitudes towards sex, that the “data†you spout off will be complete nonsense.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
In fact, I lived much of my life in NYC – including the mirror-ball apogee of Gay Liberation – and also lived in London before moving to Israel. I had gay fellow students in college, and I’ve spent the last 15+ years working for multinational hi-tech firms. I also experienced the gay world’s more corrosive aspects up close as I watched a family member get chewed up by the process of “coming out”.
So thanks, dahling – but not everyone who disagrees with you does so out of ignorance.
Sorry folks – we all know what Gay Pride parades look like, what venues distinguish gay neighorhoods, and what sort of ads appear in gay media.
We also know that gays persist in promiscuous, exploitative behaviors even when marriage is offered as an option.
If you are postulating some theoretically chaste homosexual rabbinical candidate – it would be more to the point for YOU to cite some data indicating they exist in significant numbers.
Because JTS is establishing a broad policy that will apply to ALL candidates, not just to certain monastic individuals who have miraculously managed to develop a gay self-identity without delving into the gay world’s pervasive patterns of debasement, exploitation, and promiscuity.
So spare us the old Bill-Clinton-style I-lit-the-joint-but-didn’t-inhale thing…. unless you can:
(a) prove that there is a significant number of monogomous gays out there, or
(b) describe just how JTS should screen candidates under the new rules.
Donkey then tries the oldest, tiredest trick of the modern moral relativist:
Incidentally, I can’t help but think of a number of ultra-Orthodox rabbis who have abused young boys and are still called ‘rabbi’. Strange how that works.
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It doesn’t. That’s that point – there is a clear standard of behavior for people who want to live in – and lead – the community.
…. and given the awful scandals in the presumptively celibate Catholic Church, exactly how do you think your theoretical, gay-but-chaste Rabbinical students are going to pan out? Can you honestly say that you aren’t creating a situation equally ripe for scandal and hypocrisy?
Like you say – “strange how that works.”
Indeed.
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Ira Stup, organizer of JTS Students for Change
Email: [email protected]
JTS STUDENTS FOR CHANGE REACTS TO JTS POLICY CHANGE
New York, NY (March 26, 2007) – JTS Students for Change is gratified to see another step within the Conservative Movement towards the full and unequivocal inclusion of LGBT people into Conservative Jewish life.
It is our hope as members of this community that the Seminary’s decision will begin a larger process of healing and inclusion in which LGBT people can finally begin to feel truly welcomed and embraced by their religious movement. We commend JTS and Chancellor-Elect Eisen for taking a step forward in this process. Their decision sends a message of hope to all marginalized Jews that the Conservative community’s understanding of Jewish values can be used to heal and not hurt it’s most vulnerable constituents.
However, our joy does not overshadow what necessarily has to be cautious optimism. This decision is only the beginning of what must be a much larger process of change. The culture and atmosphere at JTS is still incredibly hostile to LGBT students. Almost no support systems are in place for students questioning their sexuality and LGBT students endure almost daily debates on their religious legitimacy within the Conservative Movement. Heterosexuality and heterosexual relationships are modeled as ideal and superior in JTS classrooms and residence halls.
Furthermore, in contrast to public announcements stating otherwise, JTS made almost no effort to engage the undergraduate student body in the discussion of accepting qualified openly gay rabbinical and cantorial students. Chancellor-Elect Eisen’s letter to the larger community is unfortunately misguided in its assertion that “Even before the December CJLS vote, JTS had initiated forums at which students could make their opinions known…to the faculty and administration.” JTS Students for Change was created precisely because of this lack of engagement.
JTS Students for Change looks optimistically to the future. The Conservative Movement and JTS have finally initiated a path which can lead to a stronger, more unified, and most importantly more inclusive and just Jewish community. With this is mind, we continue our struggle for a Conservative Jewish Movement which embraces and nurtures all of its members equally.
JTS Students for Change was recently formed by a coalition of undergraduates at JTS, in order to give students an effective and productive method of advocating for change surrounding issues of LGBT inclusion and ordination. The group hopes to help create a more diverse, open, and welcoming community at JTS for all Jews, in all spheres of student life.
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No Gay Ordinations in Conservative Seminary
There will be no change in the admissions policy of the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary. Dean Ramon: ‘Jewish Law has traditionally prohibited homosexuality’
Ynetnews
Published: 03.28.07, 21:03
Rabbi Einat Ramon, Dean of the Conservative Movement’s Schechter Rabbinical Seminary in Jerusalem, announced that there will be no change in the admissions policy of the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary in response to a recent decision by the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards (CJLS) of the Rabbinical Assembly in New York that would permit the ordination of practicing gay and lesbian rabbis and pave the way for the sanctification of same-sex commitment ceremonies.
The CJLS, the Conservative Movement’s North American halachic authority, voted to endorse two proposals on this issue in December 2006: The decision that ordination of practicing gay and lesbian rabbis is not permitted by Jewish Law (Rabbi Joel Roth,), and the decision permitting the ordination of practicing gay and lesbian rabbis (Rabbi Elliot Dorff and two colleagues).
Since Conservative Judaism is a pluralistic movement, when the CJLS votes to approve two conflicting opinions in this way, each local rabbi is authorized to choose which opinion to follow.
Although the Israel branch of the Conservative Movement has long asserted its independence in matters of Jewish Law, Rabbi Ramon felt that in light of the discussions in North America generated by the split CJLS decision, it was important to clarify the policy of the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary.
In doing so, she was acting on the authority vested in her by the school’s Executive Committee, chaired by Rabbi Hanan Alexander, Professor and Chair of the Department of Education at the University of Haifa. In upholding the status quo, Ramon is in agreement with Rabbi Roth’s opinion, which was also endorsed by Rabbi David Golinkin, President and Professor of Jewish Law at the Schechter Institute of Jewish Studies in Jerusalem.
Importance of Heterosexuality
In a position paper that Rabbi Ramon distributed to the Executive Committee, she called attention to the historic centrality of heterosexual marriage in Jewish life.
“Jewish theology regards the union between a man a woman who are sexually and emotionally different from one another as a complementary covenant of friendship and intimacy, which forms the basis for procreation and childrearing. This is why Jewish law has so fervently opposed sexual relations between members of the same sexâ€, she explained, “and why the heterosexual family has played such a vital role throughout the ages in the transmission of Jewish values and the survival of the Jewish people.â€
“I have great respect for Conservative rabbis who have chosen to follow a different opinion,” said Rabbi Ramon, “and for the Reform Movement in Judaism which has long admitted candidates to its rabbinical schools who are practicing gays and lesbians or who favor same-sex commitment ceremonies. However, Jewish Law has traditionally prohibited homosexuality and only sanctifies sexual relations between members of the opposite sex.”