Gawker posted a link to a short film about The Vision Forum’s annual Father and Daughter Discipleship Retreat. The event, in Georgia (South not former-USSR), includes, among other things, an opportunity for young Christian girls, en masse, to shave their fathers’ faces. The Gawker post is tagged, “Why We Love New York.” Considering that the most extreme of the ultra-religious among the Jews would, by definition, not go in for “father-shaving,” you know, because of the beards, here’s one for our side.

This Father’s Day was apparently coordinated by European anti-Americans set on making this country look idiotic beyond all get-out. For those young Christian-American ladies not lucky enough to tie themselves to their fathers for a three-legged race, there are also “purity balls,” which are either not as sick as they sound or a whole lot more so. Matthew Yglesias links to a video about one of these balls. They involve daughters dressing up in prom-skank dresses, but their dates are, yes, their fathers. They receive wedding-esque rings and slow-dances, also from their fathers, and a recitation of a pledge to keep those legs crossed until Dad hands them over to Husband. As numerous feminist commentors note, not much is made of “male purity.” As scientifically-aware commentors note, sex is equated with automatic pregnancy, as though effective contraceptives did not exist. And as everyone who’s seen these things has noted, no matter what your views on teen abstinence, the elephant on the purity-ball dance floor is Dr. Freud.

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  • It’s so easy to pick on those stupid hillbilly Christians because they are so darn weird. Hee-Haw!

    The real reason secular (half)-Jews hate religious Christians is because they have pride and strong convictions. This is totally contrary to most Jews who hate being semites.

    Purity is a strange word for you people because Jewish women are whores. Jew women can’t have kids because of their high rate of abortion and sexually transmitted diseases. Filthy dirty Jews should be their motto.

    Jews are wimpy, self-hating cowards who need to marry Gentiles to feel secure. 90% of Jews around the world are intermarrying because they don’t want Jew children. Who can blame them? This is true especially of Jewish men.

    Jews will soon become extinct while Christians continue to thrive and multiply by the millions. It’s all about jealousy.

  • Again, does anyone moderate these comments? Or do we leave up comments instructing me that Jewish women are whores?

  • Phoebe, we don’t have a policy on this. Traditionally, we’ve respected each other’s posts in the sense that almost always the poster chooses whether to edit or remove a comment. Since, as you know, we are all decentralized, it evolved as an unspoken gesture to others that we don’t edit their posts’ comments. As with everything else, there are rare exceptions, and I do believe that ck is of the mind that free speech should reign supreme on Jewlicious, but my point is that it’s up to you to treat that comment as you wish.

    Just as a note, that comment speaks volumes about the idiot who posted it and the fact that there are other morons out there like him, not on Jewish women.

    If you haven’t edited comments before, click on the little “e” that you see and it will open the comment in an editing window.

  • I cannot tell if Goy Boy is serious. If he is, well I agree with TM — he has told us exactly who HE is.

    With that said, Idon’t feel there is anything to prevent you from killing his comment.

    I have started to get some naty nasty stuff on my personal blog, and have debated on whether to edit it or not.

    Ihave choosen not to. So far.

    Let the world see how upset the anti-Semites get when Jews state their opinions out loud!

    And Goy Boy— We were here before you and we will be here after you! Have fun in hell.

    After all the Bible says: And I will bless them that bless you and curse him that curses you and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:3

  • Man. I so wish I was Christian…

    Phoebe, anyone who writes for Jewlicious has the power to do whatever they like with any comments. I personally prefer not to touch comments. In this case, Goy Boy demonstrates his own abundant ignorance with his hate filled words. That’s why I never delete anti-Semitic comments – in the marketplace of ideas they are their own worst enemies.

    Besides, I don’t want anyone to think we’re total wusses like say the forward who deleted all the comments in this article when it was revealed that one of the subjects of the article, held up as a victim of cyber bullying, was in fact a big invective spewing cyber bully himself.

    It’s a slippery slope Phoebe. In Goy boy’s case, it’s clear he’s an idiot – but where do we draw the line? I think people who call Israel an apartheid state are idiots but does that mean I should delete their comments?


  • I agree the ball sounds weird, but there is one thing about it that I think speaks volumes about women in general: having a father who pays attention to you and treats you like a princess makes a HUGE difference in a woman’s self-perception. Knowing that your father loves you and thinks you are special can, indeed, make a huge impact on the type of romantic relationships that a girl searches for later. But a one-day ball isn’t nearly as effective as a dad who calls you “princess” day in and day out and tells his daughter often that she’s beautiful and smart and special, gives her hugs, etc.

    In the self-awareness courses that I organize, one of the most common issues that adult women come in with is having had fathers who were distant, cold, didn’t show affection unless it was asked for, etc. And that ALWAYS plays out in their romantic relationships.

    The ball is weird because it is attempts to construct artificially what should be happening naturally (and without bizarre role-playing) on a day-to-day basis from the time the girl is born until she leaves for college.

  • I for one pretty much despise Christians (except the Amish). They, for the most part, have weak understanding of their own texts, liturgy, and a really bad understanding of their own philosophical theology. For fun when I was in college I would take classes at a local seminary and loved tearing apart their poor exegetic style. There is something wonderful about being bathed in a dialectic system that is really really really old versus one that was invented in the last couple hundred years.

    I am forced to be friends with many Christians, so I tend to tolerate them as much as I can, but as soon as I see something like I saw in Jerusalem last moth,l I tip over into rage. This lady from Georgia was astounded that there would be no Christians officiating in the Temple. I overheard this conversation. No matter what the guide told her should just didn’t believe that Christians were not the ones to offer sacrifices and the like.

    Keep in mind she was one of THOSE tours where they all have the name tags with a cross on them and the tour bus has a dove with a ray of light coming out of its ass that looks like a cross…you know the kind.

    I had to say something to her – just as i was about to – I was stopped by a rather Christian feeling of pity for the ignorant.

    But to hell with her and her kind. There is just about nothing to enviable about being a pagan, tree worshiping, spring solstice celebrating, 3 gods pretending to be one “monotheist” Christian. Why the hell do WE get the blood libel pinned on us? IT IS THEY WHO DRINK BLOOD and EAT HUMAN FLESH! (well mostly Catholics, and some Eastern Churches still teach this). But ask a Catholic about this and they deny it…MAN!

    What part of the sermon on the mount do they not freaking get??? If they are going to fuck over the world in someones name at least PRETEND to know what the guy said.

  • Goy Boy, you must have sat on a tack. Chill a little. People would listen to you better if you moderated your language. We are not bad people here.

    This week’s Torah portion is specifically about purity. Purity is a very interesting idea, very complex, very serious, worth a long discussion but perhaps not here, but go have it with yourself and your chavrusa (study partner). There are no snap easy answers about purity.

    Post 7 hits the nail on the head.

  • Phoebe, Goy Boy’s language is excessive obviously but let’s face it your post is pretty negative, and contemptuous, too. We are all big boys and girls, and can handle a bit of strong talk. You can dish it out, so we have to take it, too. You hit him, and he yelled. That is expected.

    I have no love for these balls either. I wish they were not perceived as necessary. I remember a world where they were nobody thought of such a thing, because there was no issue.

    Their response seems strained, but good luck to them, whatever. My daddy loved me, and told me what I needed to know. He was busy, because men are men. They are busy by definition.

    A good father prepares his daughter for a dignified life.

    A good father understands he has to make sure things go well for her. A good father knows how to slice a very tough eyeball into the eyes of the boys / men / males who find the fragrance of his little girl interesting.

    A good father knows what a man is, because he is one himself.

  • Goy Boy should get his facts straight. It’s only fifty percent, not ninety percent. Harumph.

  • All told, I think the point of my post was sort of missed–I do not despise religious Christians or religious Jews and personally am a believer in neither category. My point about the father-shaving was that, of all the things Orthodox Jews do that seem odd to outsiders, at least this is one that would never happen.

    As for JM’s comment that I should expect harsh language, explaining in effect that I am a whore is going a bit far, don’t you think?

  • NOBODY should call anybody that. Goy Boy was totally coarse and out of line. Not very Christian as I understand the term, and it is a term I respect.

  • Having seen these events go down down here in Ga., I think Phoebe’s take on them is quite legitimate. They are really too creepy
    for words and on too many levels to count. And I’ll also note that they do not seem to be ‘common’ practice in any of the ‘mainline’
    churches I’m familiar with. While not exactly on par with the Sand Mountain ‘Snake handlers’, it’s getting mighty close to the same neighborhood as far as an accepted ‘religious’ practice is concerned.

    As for the invective & slander, it’s also pretty common for idiotic trolls, especially for female commentators almost everywhere on the Net. It’s never been acceptable practice anywhere to my mind, and is indicative of a juvenile and immature mindset that’s so
    deprived of something valuable to add to the conversation that they just are reduced to name calling. Again, some people never
    really did graduate emotionally or mentally from the 3rd grade. Others would dearly like to drag us all back there in our level of discourse so they might have another shot at glory. It’s the only way they might get noticed or compete anywhere, by screaming & shouting insults. It was ever thus. Cheers, ‘VJ’, Ga.

  • So VJ, re. the trolls – should we delete them? Edit them? What do you suggest?

  • delete them, PLEASE.

    Edgy comments is one thing. This is more like antisemitic graffitti, or an ape throwing its dung.

    That said, the vids about the Purity Balls (wasn’t there a stripper named that) made me quite queasy.

    …shelo asani goy indeed….

  • I think there’s a difference between, “I support a one-state solution, and an end to the Jewish definition of Israel” and “you, Phoebe, as a Jewish woman, are by definition a whore.” I agree with neither, but the difference should be obvious.

  • I think again Phoebe’s right here. Obvious invective should not be encouraged, and it really should be sanctioned. Here & everywhere on the Net actually. I’d recommend removing any abusive posts with that level of crass, unprovoked & needless invective. You might give a single warning of this policy to offenders if you wanted & desired to be overly polite about it.

    I often disagree with people here & elsewhere. It’s not too difficult to do civilly. If nothing else such a consistent policy would force people to learn to express themselves in a more accurate & professional manner. And really the world needs more of that. Here & almost everywhere, really. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • He only posted once. Nobody died. He got his knuckles smacked. He had something to say. He was not gentlemanly. But if we are just going to hear friendly opinions, imagine the boredom. I am here, among other reasons, to learn. I learned, all right. I learned what we look like to some others, some of the time. That doesn’t make them right. But I want to know what people think. What people think is part of reality. He did not saunter in at random, as some do – and even they are instructive. The post criticizes something he is for, in a rough way. I am with CK on this. Somebody flamed me once, too, and I didn’t fall over dead. It’s not pleasant, but as you can see I am still typing.

  • It can be a slippery slope, the comment moderation process. Especially when it’s about language. (Some Jewlicious posters have been known to include some salty and inciteful language here.)

    But when the language is threatening and abusive to either a poster or commenter, I’d be willing to have an independent committee moderate. A democratically elected committee, but of course the electees have to be approved by ck.

    Phoebe – I agree with JM. A thick skin is almost a neccesity for a blogger these days. I think we all realize the offense is a reflection on the offender. And more often than not the vilest trolls move on after one or two comments. That Nazi prick who was up here last week, for example. Can I say Nazi prick here?

  • Avi, I need a ruling here. I was referring to an actual Nazi who commented here a few days ago. As opposed to bringing up Nazis in general to make a point. The commenter was an avowed Nazi. Does that make my reference hyperbolic? (Yes, I’m going off the Wiki explanation of Godwin’s Law.)

    Being the Nazi’s comment, although just a few days ago, was from an ’04 post which I can’t find, maybe TM can back me up on this, as he exposed my unintentional dick joke. TM, help me here.

  • Geez, no we’re not talking about limiting the comments to just ‘friendly’ ones. There’d be no one left here. I’m just saying obviously abusive posts need to be sanctioned. ‘This post has been flagged as abusive’ ‘How many votes will we gather before we ban it?’ A committee would be fine, but that takes time. I’m all for transparency & freedom of speech, but I firmly believe that we can all disagree without being pig headed pricks about it.

    BTW, This goes as well for all the internecine invective over the endless ‘who’s a Jew’ or ‘who’s the better Jew’ arguments that will continue on here & elsewhere for long after we’re gone & buried. But trying to police that would be a full time job for any 3 people. But only if you paid them really well.

    And yeah, as a side note, if my neighbor came up to me and mentioned that he & his 16-18 YO daughter were going to a ‘purity ball’, it would seriously creep me out, and that would be readily apparent to all. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • So yes, I’m calling this as abusive for it’s needless, hateful invective & wholesale slander:

    ‘Purity is a strange word for you people because Jewish women are whores. Jew women can’t have kids because of their high rate of abortion and sexually transmitted diseases. Filthy dirty Jews should be their motto’.

    I’m also saying that it does not add anything to the discourse other than invective and lies. And if ‘Goy Boy’ said that me to a bar, even in deepest darkest GA., I’d punch him for it. Once more, I strongly suspect I’d have lots of real Christian men to join me in the fray. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • They guy has a foul mouth. He is also factually incorrect; we limit our child-bearing in other ways than having abortions, or being ill. I have only known of one Jewish woman in my entire life who had an abortion. We spare ourselves this experience, by being careful, and that goes ditto for disease. We are a clean lot! But we do like putting off childbearing, and no, we are not having tons of children, and yes, we do intermarry quite a bit, and yes, we have a problem, some of us, with being proud of our religion. Happy Red Cow Week! – the weirdest mitzvah in the whole Torah is this week’s Torah portion. And it’s about purity! So Shabbat Shalom.

    Goy Boy’s friends want wives, babies and a future. They don’t have access to the Red Cow and they are doing the best they can without it. If you think their methods are over the top, and they are, what is your better idea? How do YOU propose to protect your little sweeties from the predations of the Britney Spears Culture? You think that’s easy? You think it doesn’t matter? You think she will manage somehow? Is that what you see when you look around? How is the birth rate in your family? Does it matter if we have no future?

    There does not seem to be an easy or perfect solution. But when you bring up something important and sensitive, and sneer at people, expect some remarks.

    I have tried my best to think of a gentlemanlike way to say what he said, and frankly, I couldn’t. Sometimes you just have to cuss. But he went too far.


    Remember: if you delete his post, he disappears. SARC TAG!

  • I hope nobody gets the idea I don’t think Phoebe should have posted what she posted. She should post whatever she wants. But there are going to be dialogues, not all of them calm and civil. So?