SaveVirgin.jpgscores with an of-age, legal member of any of the following groups.

True Love Waits.

Worth the Wait.

Operation Keepsake.

There’s even a jewish group for such lame behaviour:

Don’t get Muffti wrong: abstinence is a respectable choice and he begrudges no one their right to keep their virginity until they grow old and whither if such be there choice; but to promote it as a cool is just disturbing and trivializes the sacrifice an abstainer makes. Or so says Muffti.

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  • Suppose those people need to loudly promote their celibate lifestyle as they hear the call of lust all too often 😉

  • You’re just trying to lure me into commenting, aren’t you Muffti? 🙂

    From Operation Keepsake: “This type of approach encourages students to develop strong character traits, to become other-centered as opposed to self-centered”

    Hmm. Because I suppose sex turns people into spineless sex fiends with no moral compass? Uh, ok. That’s reasonable….

    And “other-centered” as opposed to “self-centered”? Now here’s where our female abstainers can kill two birds with one stone. Just be generous with the blowjobs; you’ll keep your virginity intact and make “others” very happy. You might even have a line at your front door!!

    It’s one thing to make a personal decision not to have sex for whatever reason. But to be a part of a group whose sole purpose is not having sex and to make it a larger statement is somehow creepy. It puts a value on sexuality that I find weird, like really throwback and (God help me) patriarchal. What a strange way to define yourself socially, by something that is intimate and will never affect anyone else but you and one other person, if you truly live like that.

    Another thing: interesting photo. Nice hard nips poking through the virginity t-shirt. I actually think for some people it is a kind of game, a tease. The thing is, after one time you are no longer a virgin, and then what? If you’ve put all this value on that status, what do you become?

    I will up the ante and add another $10 to Muffti’s offer.

  • Operation Keepsake is just another attempt MALE attempt to supress female sexuality, as is Negiah and all these other abstinenance groups.
    As for males that are staying “virgins” until after they marry, it’s because they are afraid of exploring their sexual inclinations. Maybe if they explored them while they were young adults in a safe manner, it would prevent them from saying later on “Oops Honey, I just realized I’m gay” after siring kids, Jim McGreevy style.

    I am in favor of abstinence until a person is a legal adult. I don’t mean of legal age to be a bas or bar mitzvah. I mean of legal age to engage in sexual relations and be married in the eyes of U.S. law. Children should not be having sexual relations or getting married.

    An adult life with without healthy sexual expression is a life just as poorly lived as one without a positive relationship with one’s Creator.

    I am reminded of my Bas Mitzvah Haftorah from Judges where the Daughter of Jiphtaph the Gilaed had to go up to the mountain with her girls to bewail dying a virgin before being sacrificed due to an oath her father took.

  • Shades of Nice Jewish Girl.

    $10 can be seen as too low for the effort involved, or too high since the objective should be its own reward.

    Maybe Muffti could use the $10 to pay a proofreader?

  • BTW I agree with Chutzpah about a reasonable age. Unfortunately, nature gives you the boobies before you are able to manage the attention you get for having them. Girls are definitely more vulnerable and need to be able to get a handle on things before the boys get a handle on THEM.

  • TM, would that be $10 per line / per post / (outsourced to a proofreading plant in the Far East:) per week?

  • That picture reminds me of the photo of Useful Idiot NAtalie Portman standing next to Hilary without a bra.

    “to become other-centered as opposed to self-centered”

    Great, now even the frigid are promoting socialism. I encourage everyone to masterbate at a minimum of once a day:

    Don’t do it for you, do it for your sanity!

  • is highly, highly irresponsible, with their anti-condom position for teens and their insistence that people not shake hands with those of an opposite gender.

    Did you know that is run by NCSY? I would like to say I am surprised, but I am not.

  • The “I Am Worth The Wait” website is bizarre. Most of the comments are from people who have had sex, and quite a few from people who have had babies and become “revirginized.” Sound familiar?

  • Just a few comments from WTW site:

    “I was a virgin when I got married at age 21. My husband, seven and a half years my senior, was also a virgin. As a matter of fact, the first time we shared a kiss was on our wedding day in December, 2002.
    I am so grateful that prior to our marriage, my husband’s first goal was to protect and honor me as a woman and to honor my father, as the protector of his daughter, at the same time.” (Because your virginity, a physical and emotional state, “belongs” to your father–until he hands you over to your next protector. Vaguely incestuous and completely nauseating.)

    “This is such a relief. I pray that there will be even more groups like this future. My daughter is two, and I’m already stressing about when she becomes a teenager.” (So if she is “relieved”– she was “stressing” about her two year old’s possible teenage sex life? Oh, that’s normal.)

    “Wow, welcome to 1950!”

    “I too am sick of all the sex in the news. I am also sick of people who think that abstaining from sex is something glamorous, you aren’t worth any more or less just because your hymen is intact and guys I’m sorry but your best years are between 17 and 25, after that things start to go horribly wrong.” (not sure what he’s referring to but funny nonetheless)

    “Learning to abstain from their sexual desires now will help them be a faithful spouse later.” (Completely logical! How handy to be able to abstain from sexual desire when your spouse turns out to be a dud in the sack!)

  • I agree with Giyoret that this whole thing is PATRIARCHAL and CREEPY and with DK that is HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE and further add that it is FUNDAMENTALIST, REPRESSIVE and EXTREMIST.

    I will be teaching my daughter’s about safe sex practices and condoms as soon as see they are interacting with boys.
    Right now they do not hang around with the girls in their Yeshivas who do. They call this clique of girls, who by the way are from some of the most affluent and prestigous families in Plifton “the boy group” because they meet up with boys in the park on Shabbos. Their parents are of course clueless that this goes on because they have to many children to actually talk to any of them and because they think that sending them to an Orthodox Yeshiva and keeping them away from “goyim” is enough to stop them from experimenting with sex,drugs and alcohol. LOL! The police are busting up parties of Yeshiva boys smoking pot and taking ecstasy all the time around here.

    What Orthodox bal tshuva parents don’t realize is that your Yeshiva dollars are not going to stop your kids from doing what you did in High School and college, it’s just going to make them more naive to the dangers of the those activities than they ever were.
    Shout out to Beyond Tshuva on this one also!

  • CK, come get your 10$ Muffti would gladly hand it over. But he needs verification before he gives up his hard earned cash…

  • Since when has Muffti had voyeuristic ambitions?

    I can understand that people are fed up with overly advertized sex on the media; sociologists and family therapists have long since determined those ads to be a negative factor to many a relationship as they set unrealistic standards, but I find it just as worrisome to advertize celibacy and in return stick a negative label onto non-celibate people. Mutual witch-hunts over deliberately chosen lifestyles are simply just immature. I do think though that people should take sex more seriously, and a first step to that is proper sex ed at all schools – as is common over here from 3rd grade on. BTW, I’ve read about studies that found out that in societies where male sexual performances aren’t considered “achievements”, men report little to no “urge” to engage in sexual behaviour and hence viewed sex, besides the obvious means of procreating, as a physical expression of emotions within their relationships. Those studies suggest that the infamous male “sex drive” is socially implemented, which reflects, IMO, also in the different ways promiscuous people of both genders are viewed: men are stallions, pimps, checkers, womanizers etc.; women are sluts, cunts, bitches, whores etc.

  • Then I owe you $10 also ck– I just need a signed affidavit from the lovely lady. And did you “convince” her? 😉

  • “…..studies suggest that the infamous male “sex drive” is socially implemented…”

    No Sarah. We ain’t socially implemented. We’re semen implemented. Millions of little critters driving us crazy to let them go, which we are always highly agreeable to do. Our problem is always finding someone agreeable to take them.

    I can’t believe ‘these studies’ had any males associated with them. It is really elementary my dear.

  • Jim, firstly, I’m not your dear. Secondly, the validity of those studies does not depend on whether or whether not you like their findings. Six-hundred years ago, many people weren’t exactly entertained by the notion either that the earth is not a flat disc.

  • Eric says, ”Great, now even the frigid are promoting socialism. I encourage everyone to masturbate at a minimum of once a day,” while Jim R. offers the trenchant observation that “We’re semen implemented. Millions of little critters driving us crazy to let them go, which we are always highly agreeable to do.

    If just for efficiency’s sake, you guys really ought to get together and pool resources, so you can keep on beating off eight times an hour and avoiding all exposure to things like books, ideas, and any other form of human social interaction. Of course, should you get really ambitious, you could always head out to the nearest public toilet and “go Republican;” you know, crawl around on your hands and knees with your polyester Sansabelt pants around your ankles, slurping on a big, hard dick while denouncing the homosexual lifestyle.

  • The NCSY’s irresponsible attitude about condoms simply stems from it’s parent organization, the Orthodox Union, position on condoms.
    During my marriage I was getting infections after returning from the mikvah and having relations with my spouse. When my GYN suggested that they were coming from the mikvah or my spouse, I asked the Plifton Medical Maven for advice. She promptly told that GYN that he would be getting no further referrals from her. (Yes, she later had to resign from the Bikor Cholim for allegedly taking kickbacks from Doctors for referrals, but I digress.)
    Then I asked our Rav, you know, the ones that are on the Board of Advisors for “Beyond Tshuva” for permission to use condoms as I was sure my spouse was passing me something since the Medical Maven assured me it could not possibly be from the Mikvah. I was told unless the infections were life-threatening, such as if my spouse was passing me HIV, he could not give us a “heter” to use condoms, and further that I denying my spouse relations is grounds for divorce. But of course, being a woman, I could not divorce my ex and had to wait for him to issue me my Get, which took over two years.
    So, what do we learn from this? Had I been having relations with my ex before the marriage I would have known not to marry him.
    Ladies, please do not buy a pair of kitty heels without trying them on first, but make sure you use those free peds they give you in the shoe store before you try them on.

  • It doesn’t take a genius to see that the mechanics under discussion here would be, and are, a terrific and effective pathogen vector. An ecological niche is created, thereby, and ecological niches are always filled.

    It is worth wondering why something as difficult as thwarting these mechanics would have taken root had there been no survival utility. There obviously had to be a survival utility, or why?

    There is a capriciousness – many of these problems surface only much later at unpredivctable times, making it impossible to know for sure who got what where and when.

    Perhaps the cost is worth it, taking everything together? Who knows? An awful lot of people have thought so, over the many, many years. Maybe they knew something?

    Life is not perfect. There is always a cost, but nobody mentions it.

  • I know, I know, Foucault me.

    Chutzpah’s idea of holding off until legal is very good and actually not easy any more, good luck. Your tuition dollars at work. We hope.

    Women used to give men this, and, also comfort, conversation, housekeeping, moral uplift and children.

    Guess what female service on that list is still needed? Only one thing, and even that monopoly is eroding.

    That is why Halloween costumes for 7 year old girls look like that. Fishnet. It’s in Newsweek, so it must be true.

  • Not only on Halloween, JM. Make-up kits, perfumes etc. for primary school girls already can be purchased all year round. A friend of mine who’s a fashion designer that also does a children’s line told me there’s some ‘code of honour’ among many designers not to make girls’ fashion too ‘adult’-looking (I usually go through his designs with him and comment on details I consider too extravagant and on functionality; he usually accepts my suggestions).

  • Good for you, for holding the line.

    I was musing, “why?”

    What happened to the little girl astronaut or little girl surgeon? Why are parents going along with this?

    Because they don’t want their daughters to get lost in the sauce, and have no life.

    Meaning, this is all they are going to be valued for, so they had better be good.

    Innocent childhood is a prelude to innocent adulthood, which Marx, Foucault and Dr. Ruth have all said – 1) isn’t healthy, and 2) isn’t available anyway, so get used to doing without them.

    Not hottie? No jobbie. No friendie. No company. No manny. No nothing. Cue the fishnet. The younger the better. They need these survival skills.

    Especially when they will have to compete with males even in that area, brave new world.

  • 29 – had you been Conservative/masorti, you STILL would not have had halachic sanction for premarital sex (despite actual practice) but you would have had the right to use a condom (AFAIK) and your get would have been alot easier, IIUC.

    Is there no middle ground?

  • Yes, I agree with justayid…any movement that is not fundamentalist, extremist, or stuck in biblical times affords much greater rights to women.

    The post was on premarital sex. Premarital sex is a priviledge for adult women who would like to check out the goods before they vow to keep them for a lifetime.

    The right to have premarital sex as an adult has nothing to do with the oversexualization of children (both male and female)in today’s society.

    Yes, sexual problems can materialize after years, but usually you know if he wants you to bark like a dog, pee in his mouth or ram a dildo up his ass after a few sessions. Of course if he is a virgin when you marry him, it could take a year or so until he reads about that kind of stuff on the internet when when is supposed to be in the Bais Midrash.

  • Chutzpah, that all sounds mighty unpleasant. Except for the barking dog part. That, actually, is hilarious. If you run into that situation again, offer to perform the whole Westminster Dog Show. That might quench his ardor.


  • Um, dated every guy on Jdate in the State of New Jersey…can’t get the New Yorker’s to cross over the George Washington Bridge, even though their profiles all state that they love to travel, explore new places and love adventure.

    But I don’t think it’s the water…I think it’s the species “the 40- something divorced guy”. Never had a problem with a younger man lying to me or being bizzare.

    As for Canine Guy…a very prominent opthomologic plastic surgeon.

    Premarital Sex is God’s way of saying ” Buyer Beware!”

  • “If just for efficiency’s sake, you guys really ought to get together and pool resources, so you can keep on beating off eight times an hour and avoiding all exposure to things like books, ideas, and any other form of human social interaction. Of course, should you get really ambitious, you could always head out to the nearest public toilet and “go Republican;” you know, crawl around on your hands and knees with your polyester Sansabelt pants around your ankles, slurping on a big, hard dick while denouncing the homosexual lifestyle.”

    You do have a way a creative and highly humorous way of expressing your disagreement David. I really did get a great laugh out of this one.

    Women should seriously look up what Dennis Prager has to say about the nature of males. It will improve their love/married life by making them sympatheic to what nature did to us and why they have the control.

  • Oh, and you’re not helping David by continuing to complicate the, sadly, uncomplicated male gender.

    But please don’t stop the colorful comments.

  • Safe sex should include the use of protected sex and also no deep tongue kissing. Many people are not aware that this can help to spread Hepatitis B and all the other STD’s.
    It is my understanding that even if one visits a prostitute who has an STD, as long as you use protection, you cannot contract a disease however except for receiving the prossy’s tongue in any way and vice versa.

    I agree with the Feminists except that there is a major diff bet. the male and female who can get pregnant, which is a holy act with our higher power.

    But to make such rules that disciminate ex nihilo against women is flat out wrong imho.

  • Chutzpah,

    One can get trichamonal infections from water, swimming pools, mikvahs, hot tubs. It’s a parasite infection. It can be passed back and forth from men to women and give a d/c.

  • 42, Gene Maintz, you are too optimistic.

    Skin is not made of steel. It has tiny breaks and tears you don’t even feel. Blisters and warts can be on externall, dry skin, and can transmit to another dry skin. Or isn’t that nice to mention?

    Risk can be reduced, but not completely eliminated. That goes for any contact that an ordinary passerby would call being more than friends. That is why it is called intimate. It goes in.

    I don’t mean you personally, I was just talking to radio-land in general.

  • Interesting, Gene. So deep kissing is a problem, but protected sex with a disease-carrying prostitute is probably not. I don’t think that’s very good info, actually.

    I don’t know what shallow kissing is, but it doesn’t sound like much fun. I wouldn’t have a problem kissing someone who looks healthy and clean. As for other intimate contact, the best thing is to get to know someone and you’ll know beforehand if something is amiss. And maybe use condoms in the beginning just to be sure.

    Then do something else for birth control. Condoms are one of the grossest things ever invented. Married sex is definitely better than single sex in that regard. But I digress.

  • Sorry, but Muffti actually is a very sweet, nice, and educated person that hopefully won’t let himself silenced by people that use uncalled-for profanities to refer to him.

  • I couldnt do it. I think it would be an easier time if we were like prowns from District 9. But were not. Sometime you have to face reality that were a specie and there world will be dead by 3767.

    Or like a dieing kitten that you have no control of its path towards nocturnal silence.

    And like a male organism you have an organ, and that certain area drives you to do what I do atleast.

    I suppose if you dont have or feel for that certain organ, then thats great! Who wouldnt want to just live like Prowns.

  • I think all Muffti needs is a good intern and maybe if he is lucky she would be a member of one of those named groups.Two birds one stone ;}