More things to come? See the rest of the sad display here, as Israeli border police evacuate two caravans from an illegal outpost near the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar.
Publisher at Jewlicious
Founder and Publisher of Jewlicious, David Abitbol lives in Jerusalem with his wife, newborn daughter and toddler son. Blogging as "ck" he's been blocked on twitter by the right and the left, so he's doing something right.
Latest posts by ck (see all)
- Hawk Tuah Girl Haliey Welch is Not Jewish. Probably. - 8/9/2024
- Jews Blessed by their High Priests - 10/14/2022
- Foolproof Mufletta Recipe & Muflettapalooza / Mimouna Invite! - 3/26/2021
Thank you for every other informative blog.
Ezra, I haven’t forgotten you and recognize the questions were directed at me. I need to find a block of time to respond. Not to worry, I always respond, and my responses are typically of the no-squiggle-no-dodge variety…although I did notice a couple of talmudic scholar quality non-answers on your part up there.
😉
although it may have seemed like those questions were directed to CK for some reason, I am much more interested in seeing a no-squiggle-no-dodge-the-question, no answer-everything-by-association/analogy/straw-man shtick-free fact-based answer on the part of Mr. Middle (T_M).
I don’t have the blogging time I had there for a week, but I typed quite a bunch and would love to see T_M make Josh’s trip to the popcorn dispenser made worthwhile.
shavua tov
Hmmm, one of the things about having a Jewish state is that we have laws…
Besides, what’s wrong with populating the Galilee and the Negev with Jews?
Illegal outpost ??? There is no such thing. Modern Israel exists so Jews who were thrown from their homes all over the world for the last 2000 years have a place where they can live as Jews in peace. Well in theroy.
SHA-lom
Good stuff, Ezra. I’ll try to respond in the next couple of days.
In the meantime, Haaretz (I know, Lefty brainwashing media unlike the cool breezy objectivity at Arutz Sheva) reports a couple of developments today:
“Police detain right-wingers for shouting `Second Kristallnacht approved by IDF rabbinate` outside chief IDF rabbi`s home.”
(do you think they were referring to the Judenrat, Ezra?)
and
NRP MK Shaul Yahalom said today, “Refusal of IDF orders to evacuate causes great damage to national Zionist camp and to Israel.”
Do you suppose he’s been reading Jewlicious.com?
Geez you guys. I’ve been all up and down Gaza and Yehudah and Shomron. I’ll be in your neck of the woods this summer – I’ll gladly come for shabbat. Uh… Do you all have a sephardic minyan there? Can I help with the cooking?
Right now I am on a quick jaunt through New York City. so I can’t post detailed responses. Maybe tonight or before shabbat though. As it is its all I can do to delete the comment spam.
Ezra good questions.
ck and T_M,
I’m going to get some popcorn. This might get good…
Answers to T_M’s questions/statements:
1. How do you feel when soldiers give up their lives and limbs so that you and yours can continue to live as 7500 Jews in a sea of 1.2 million Palestinians?
How do you feel standing over the graves of those soldiers who died for the Land of Israel – explaining to them that davka now – as the bloodiest, most gruesome terror offensive is winding down – you have decided to throw in the towel on behalf of them and generations to come?
Have more lives and limbs been lost guarding yishuvim than in operations keeping Arabs with explosives strapped to them from boarding buses and visiting malls all over Israel?
More importantly: How do you feel when soldiers give up their lives and limbs so that you and yours can continue to live as 6 million Jews in a sea of billions of hostile Arabs? Are the proportions any different?
2. What do you think will happen eventually that will allow Israel to win this war?
There will be a war. Anyone who posits otherwise is naïve. Israel will win because she will have to. Right now we have not been fighting to win. Winning is not the goal.
3. What do you think will happen with the demographics of the situation?
I think they are fine. Furthermore – all you folks who love talking about demographics refuse to even entertain the fact that the bigger demographic nightmare is that of the Israeli Arabs – who after the establishment of Palestine, will begin the campaign for Palestine 2 – to be founded democratically through the Knesset. Unless…T_M has so much fun cheering on the transfer of Jews that him and his decide transfer of Arabs is just as palatable. Pigs will then fly.
4. Do you believe that Gaza will be rid of its Palestinians but you will remain? How will this happen? Do you have a position about these issues with respect to Yehuda and Shomron? Feel free to mention a flood if that’s what you believe.
There is no reason for Gaza to be rid of Arabs – as long as they accept the Jewish State. Until them, I would like to keep an eye on them so as to prevent thousands more Jewish deaths. It is the folks who dream of the primitive partition fence at night and the unilateral retreat by day who have this desperate and “flood-like†conception that a fence (which has already been penetrated on numerous occasions by tunnels the IDF has termed “undetectable†due to their depth) and a retreat will bring anything but disaster upon our people. “We gotta try something†comes the response from the masses, programmed by the media and with carrots dangling forth just over the horizon.
My plan is not spectacular. It is that we don’t tear the nation apart by forcing soldiers to choose the whims of crooked politicians over the words of our precious Torah. It is that we keep up the counter-terror operations, deport/execute terrorists, and move past this obsession with convincing ourselves we can force a thing as holy and real as peace upon a people that still cheers at the sight of hands drenched in blood.
Patience. Let us heal our wounds. Let us heal the rifts in society. No matter how much you yell about how dastardly the settlers are for not going softly into the night, I think lying on your pillow you realize that this does not have to happen this way and I think you know who has guided the situation to a crash-course.
5. If you perceive this forced pullout by Israel and your forced removal from Gaza as immoral and Nazi-like (your concept, not mine, I feel Israel and the IDF are moral and absolutely un-Nazi-like), why do you accept the protection of the State? Why do you accept the state’s subsidies or live in a community that accepts them and was founded by the State? Why do you allow the instrument of this Nazi-like State, the IDF, to protect you?
It is the doings of a leader who is madly implementing the platform of his trounced opponent contrary to a referendum he vowed to abide by and then changed his mind. The State is just fine, as is the IDF. A candlestick is also a fine thing – until a murderer uses it to bludgeon someone to death. Are these concepts too difficult or do you really have some sort of cult-like condition whereby any comparison with aspects of Jewish History (specifically WW II) elicits hysterics.
IDF soldiers who fulfill illegal orders will be brought to trial. Politicians who flout the will of the public will be rejected by the populace whenever the ballots are opened. Jews who throw Jews out of their homes in the hope that “maybe†it will improve the security situation on the coastal plane – are making the same “pragmatic†error that many of the Judenrat made when they participated in “relocating†the Jews in hopes that things would get better (at least for them) if they cooperate. And to be clear, the analogy casts the Arab world as the Nazis, and most of the rest of the world as most of the rest of the world during the Holocuats
6. How do you explain that just a couple of years ago, Sharon was the darling of the settlers, but is now badmouthed as a traitor or as someone who has lost his capacity to see reality?
The settler movement has in it a large percentage of westerners. Due partly to this, and partly to the culture of religious Jews, the residents of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, as well as sympathizers across the Jewish State, have gotten past the concept of electing themselves a dictator and fully expect democratic principles to be upheld. If one goes up against their party and constituency and loses in democratic processes in both regards, he is expected to take the hint.
The “settlers†– as you call them – but in fact a large segment of Israel’s citizens – living all across the country – have been systematically disenfranchised and demonized for threatening to engage in civil disobedience and for pointing out that expelling Jews from their homes is illegal and immoral. Cabinet ministers were fired on the eve of votes. Idiotic polls by the same companies which consistently get it wrong on the eve of every election or referendum use deceptive wording (“as part of a final peace agreement, should Israel leave parts of Gaza?) and are used to make headlines and recycled to make headlines again until the withdrawal is “inevitable†and the only thing standing in the way of economic prosperity and maybe even PEACE is these pesky weird looking settlers.
7. Do you not find it odd that you are now attacking Sharon, Foxman, the IDF and the State? Is it healthy when everybody becomes your enemy, even your supporters and friends? Do you believe that the nature of your accusations and attacks is a fair type of criticism? Doesn’t it bother you that your remarks and comments mirror those of the Palestinians, the international Far Right and Far Left?
Stupid question/statement. Once again stuffing my mouth full of words. Is this eight grade debate team?
8. In order to remain close to the cradle of Jewish civilization, would you be willing to remain behind and live among the Palestinians?
Yes. You can come visit if you like. I imagine Yad VaShem will become the new popular holy site once all the others are relinquished to the guardianship of the Wakf.
9. You are a faithful Jew. You obviously believe that Israel is in the wrong in this matter. Ostensibly, this goes against your faith. Would you raise arms against a State that violates what you consider holy? Second part of this question is would you put your faith above democracy if Israel found itself in demographic difficulties or if you felt the State’s choices forced you to give up too much of what you consider basic tenets of faith?
This isn’t just about faith, my friend. It is about justice, and common sense. Creating a terror-state along our borders – newly motivated by a retreat under fire – is one of the worst ideas ever – of all time.
Israel is not wrong – the Prime Minister is. The nation of Israel is being lied to, silenced, threatened and bamboozled in a very blatant manner. Why in the world is there no referendum? Why are you not campaigning for a referendum? Don’t you believe there is this overwhelming majority that agrees with you? Wouldn’t that neutralize much of the rifts that this hasty ethnic cleansing of Gaza will cause? CK, if you really cared about all Jews – including those country-folk with weird hair-styles living in the heartland of the Holy Land – then you would quit posting that lame “Shalom Aza†slogan and start demanding a referendum.
If you choose democracy over Jewish State, then you are going to make that same choice how ever many years down the line when the Israeli Arabs pose it to us.
10. Are you going to keep making hasbara class jokes when I write?
Are you going to keep playing games, repeating the same tired emotional non-facts, throwing lists of questions back at me rather than bringing proof of the benefit of this retreat from Gaza and the northern Shomron that outweighs the rights of these people to live on their land?
AND NOW FOR YOU:
1) Do you believe that the God of Israel is the One true God and that He gave your people a document in which it is outlined that we are not stumbling about seeking the most consumer goods and the safest domicile, but that we actually have a great national project to accomplish on this earth?
2) Do you truly believe people will have less reserve duty/IDF service after a withdrawal? Do you truly believe less soldiers will die combatting terrorism or that the security situation will improve?
3)If Ariel Sharon woke up tomorrow and said “OK, my mistake, Shabak says this is a dangerous plan – its been shelved,” would you still want to implement the plan?
4)How large a role does your trust in PM Sharon play in your endorsement of this expulsion?
5)What is an example of an order you would refuse?
6)What is something you would be willing to die for?
7)Have you been to Gush Katif? Anywhere in Yesha besides Efrat? How much does your objectification of these people figure into your ability to be so scornful of them and their motives for living where they do?
8) If you knew a referendum could prevent Jew v. Jew bloodshed would you be actively campaigning for one?
9) Would you like to come for Shabbat?
Here are the questions for Ezra:
Now here are my questions for you, Ezra:
1. How do you feel when soldiers give up their lives and limbs so that you and yours can continue to live as 7500 Jews in a sea of 1.2 million Palestinians?
2. What do you think will happen eventually that will allow Israel to win this war?
3. What do you think will happen with the demographics of the situation?
4. Do you believe that Gaza will be rid of its Palestinians but you will remain? How will this happen? Do you have a position about these issues with respect to Yehuda and Shomron? Feel free to mention a flood if that’s what you believe.
5. If you perceive this forced pullout by Israel and your forced removal from Gaza as immoral and Nazi-like (your concept, not mine, I feel Israel and the IDF are moral and absolutely un-Nazi-like), why do you accept the protection of the State? Why do you accept the state’s subsidies or live in a community that accepts them and was founded by the State? Why do you allow the instrument of this Nazi-like State, the IDF, to protect you?
6. How do you explain that just a couple of years ago, Sharon was the darling of the settlers, but is now badmouthed as a traitor or as someone who has lost his capacity to see reality?
7. Do you not find it odd that you are now attacking Sharon, Foxman, the IDF and the State? Is it healthy when everybody becomes your enemy, even your supporters and friends? Do you believe that the nature of your accusations and attacks is a fair type of criticism? Doesn’t it bother you that your remarks and comments mirror those of the Palestinians, the international Far Right and Far Left?
8. In order to remain close to the cradle of Jewish civilization, would you be willing to remain behind and live among the Palestinians?
9. You are a faithful Jew. You obviously believe that Israel is in the wrong in this matter. Ostensibly, this goes against your faith. Would you raise arms against a State that violates what you consider holy? Second part of this question is would you put your faith above democracy if Israel found itself in demographic difficulties or if you felt the State’s choices forced you to give up too much of what you consider basic tenets of faith?
10. Are you going to keep making hasbara class jokes when I write? 😉
Since Ezra qualified that the star of David was not intended to infer that the IDF were Nazis or that the Israeli government is a Nazi-like government, but that he really meant that they were like the Judenrat, please feel free to replace the word Nazi with Judenrat wherever appropriate.
There is a difference, Josh.
Israel has internationally accepted borders. You are not inside those borders.
Israel has a thriving and strong democracy within the Green Line. It has an army lording it over millions of people where the settlers live.
When you protect the Hermon, you are not participating in the same type of endeavor as when you protect a small outpost in the Shomron. One is part of a national and international consensus and one is not.
Now if you want to try to make it part of a national and international consensus, you are welcome to try to do so by democratic means. I’m afraid that is not going to happen soon, though, and certainly not if you can’t propose a viable and legal solution to the matter of the Palestinian population.
Have you noticed that Ezra never answered even a single one of my ten questions in the Buffoons discussion? Never mind ten, he couldn’t answer one. Have you noticed that the only solution you’ve offered is anecdotal evidence that there are 10,000 Palestinians leaving Gaza every month, even though the actual stats show their population growing.
Do you have any reasonable solutions for any of this other than to plow ahead with building more settlements and growing more settlements?
Do you have any reasonable solutions for what to do about the Palestinians? Do you propose an ongoing and never-ending presence of our military there?
How is terror different with or without settlers living nearby?
Why do you think that putting a pluga or other smaller size team of soldiers around a settlement in order to protect it on an ongoing basis is fine, but when the government decides that the burden of keeping that pluga around you is too great and the only way to protect you is to ask you to leave, you suddenly protest and claim that this is a violation of civil rights?
Do you believe that a government, in order to protect its citizens, has a right to enact laws that codify seatbelt wearing, or careful drug testing before a drug is put out on the market? These are laws intended to protect citizens. How are these different from the same government trying to remove settlers in danger from their homes?
Do you believe a government has the right to purchase land and homes from people when it wants to build a road or a highway? Virtually every Westerm government can do this and the homeowners sometimes get market value and sometimes get last sale price for the property, even if that price is outdated. How is this different?
It’s okay, I’m used to not getting answers, but at least consider these questions.
don’t spit upon the lives of all those soldiers who have protected you over these decades.
Perhaps I’ll comment more later, but T_M, this recurring theme of yours is a bit libelous and Ezra is definitely right about his accusation. The army is us and we are the army. I don’t have any problem with being sent to the Hermon to protect skiers on Shabbos or a couple of isolated moshavim near Har Dov, the same way I’d expect some leftist from Ramat Aviv to come protect a settler. Maybe calling it ‘unconditional love’ is a bit exagerated, maybe not. Where is the discussion about the legality of young soldiers dealing with police/riot work which no one denies is a complete profession in itself, not just a pep talk in the ‘chet’?
ck,
if you don’t take pleasure in it, you’d be demanding that the government does everything it can to respect basic civil/religous rights – or your backing T_M up on the ends justifies the means?
Later.
Uh… I don’t think Israel should leave anyone behind. They would be torn limb from limb by howling rabid mobs. I wouldn’t wish that fate upon anyone.
Hey Ezra, this is a group blog. When you speak to us as a group, you are making the mistake that we think as a group or discuss these issues before posting them. We are all independent…
I will repeat again, and I know other posters here agree, that I harbor no hatred toward the settlers, understand their hearts and goals, feel deep sympathy for their loss, and respect their contribution to Israel.
Before you post again, railing about how we supposedly feel and think about settlers, read that last paragraph slowly a couple of times.
My concern, Ezra, is that in your ZEAL, as settlers, to create a Greater Israel, you are putting into jeopardy the entire Zionist enterprise. You are forcing upon Israel a demographic time bomb for which there is no democratic solution. You are forcing a permanent occupation. You are forcing international illegitimacy and dire economic consequences. You are forcing numerous people, including staunch Israel supporters, to take sides along a very deep division. You are forcing important institutions of Jews both in Israel and outside of it to take active positions that consequently compel them to represent one of two sides of the debate, even when they wish they could represent just Israel. You are forcing young Israeli soldiers to break their own hearts by tearing other Israelis away from their homes (it is you doing this, not the government). You are putting Israeli soldiers in danger. You are putting your own children in harm’s way. You are forcing deep divisions inside Israel at a time when we are at war. You are showing profound ingratitude for all that Israel and its people have done on your behalf over a period of decades – people who live in Tel Aviv have given their lives for your mission.
Stop it. You are tearing Israel up because of your ZEAL. You are behaving like zealots.
Yes, some of you are there for the mortgage and the extra bedroom, even if you deny it. Surveys show it clearly. It’s just that most of the people who say this live very close to the Green Line. That doesn’t mean that all of you live there because of this. Some of you believe in a Greater Israel, and some of you who may be secular believe that this land is our true heritage. Some of you believe that Israel is better off with settlements and some of you believe you are following in the footsteps of other Jews who preceded you in living in these areas.
All fine and good. But right now, Israel needs you to move from certain areas because it believes that defense would be easier, international relations would be easier, losing responsibility for over a million Palestinians is important and, dare I say it, some people think keeping the West Bank might be easier without Gaza…
As for your talk about splitting into two kingdoms, don’t spit upon the lives of all those soldiers who have protected you over these decades. Also, don’t pretend that you would have survived had the Israeli government not built special roads for you, provided subsidies of all types, and provided diplomatic and legal cover for you. I think you’re not being very clever in proposing this seriously, or in suggesting that somehow your contribution to Israel is what keeps it going. You are a tiny minority, representing a total of 230,000 people. Most of those people live in large and safer settlements. They will not join your “kingdom” when you launch it. Among those who will remain, you will find that those who are pilots, are planeless. Those who are tank commanders are tank-less. You will have few economic options, and no subsidies. You will have nothing but enemies at your doorstep. You want to try it? Be my guest. I don’t think the Israeli government would do it, but I do wish they left those of you who are so cocky behind. You will get the raw deal, of that I can assure you.
Instead of telling us that it is everybody else’s fault that this is happening, why not look inside yourself, Ezra. Why not consider that maybe you are wrong and what you wish to impose upon several million of your countrymen is not what they want.
The soldier arrested yesterday for disobeying the illegal order has refused to be tried by his commander (who would go easy on his due to the fact that he is an outstanding soldier) opting instead to take his assertion that the expulsion order is illegal to the court-martial.
Say what you want about these people, T_M, I think most observers can see through your hate-laden rhetoric and obsessively-posted bumper stickers to what really drives you up the wall. You cannot accept the fact that there are Jews in this world who are willing to sacrifice and die for what they believe in. You can’t stand the fact that they believe there is actual “truth” to be discovered.
Instead you rant about how they are there for the extra bedroom or the garden or the mortgage discount. You try to sully their sacrifice by pitting them against the institution of the IDF when in fact they are merely being victimized – together with IDF soldiers not courageous enough to refuse such a shameful order.
Is there an order you would refuse? Is there anything you would go to jail for? Die for?
These people are willing to serve their country 365 days a year – yet you simutaneously lambast their sincerity and wish to forcefully remove them because you claim they are forcing others to protect them.
I’ve got news for you. Nobody wants to split into two kingdoms here, but if you are really sincere in your desire to simply withdraw the IDF – or lets go one step further – withdraw those in the IDF who only want to defend areas of Israel where they and their friends live – then Green-line Israel will get the raw deal.
Yesha residents are more than willing to serve guarding their own communities instead of piloting the air force planes patrolling the skies above you and patrolling the silly separation fence for the undetectable tunnels which (though almost completely unreported) have rendered the endeavor null and void.
Let these people stay.
Laya – protect them from themselves? These people ARE the army. There has been no people’s voice calling upon them to leave their homes on behalf of the nation of Israel. Last elections, along with the only referendum on the matter each rejected this entire notion 60%/%40.
So if you support the Israeli government re-arming and re-training the snipers of tomorrow – fine. But why insist on smashing to bits the most potent ideological force keeping the nation of Israel loyal to the Land and the history. You want to sell it for a bowl of pottage – fine – but isn’t it a little fishy that you have to smash by house and drag me along with you?
How long will you sit on the fence Jewlicious-members? None of you like the idea of dragging these people out of their homes. You all have stated (some with bloody fantasies of these arrogant settler types coming running back to Israel proper for IDF protection) that ideally you would like to see them be able to stay after a withdrawal…
So – how about something fresh instead of the same “Shalom Gaza” bumper sticker again and again. Take a stand. You guys can be pro-disengagement from Gaza without advocating the expulsion of the Jews, can’t you? Are you like all the masses of anti-terror Arabs who just can’t seem to find the right time to rally around the cause (except when the transfer accusations hit a sore spot)?
The pictures of yesterday’s shameful event depict two sets of victims – the young soldiers who are being abused by their government in being forced to carry out a blatantly political act that has nothing to do with protecting the security of the nation – and the residents of Yitzhar, who in addition to serving in elite IDF units and showing up for reserves until they are 50 volunteer to take care of security in their yishuv, host soldiers for shabbat, and basically act as soldiers for the state of Israel and the Jewish project every waking moment of every day.
Say what you want about Gaza (preferably after having at least visited once – sheesh) – but a tiny drop of respect for these Jews. Please.
(here’s a part of an article about the Sergeant who is willing to go to jail so as to stand up for what he believes the Torah says is right)
From IsraelNN.com
The soldier, Sgt. Yosef Pilent, has lived in Yitzhar for most for most of his life since immigrating to Israel with his family from the U.S., and is now serving in an army unit stationed in Yitzhar. Released on furlough for a few days, he arrived home yesterday – wearing his uniform – only to see his unit destroying two trailer homes (caravans) in the outlying Yitzhar neighborhood of Givat Lehavah. Adding insult to injury, his brother and his fiancee were considering moving into one of the caravans after their wedding this coming April. Sgt. Pilent made a quick and instinctive decision, and called upon his comrades to refuse to participate in the destruction – even as they attempted to drag him away and continue the destruction.
Yehuda Libman said that the government put the soldier, as well as the army, in an absolutely impossible situation: “The orders [to evacuate the two caravans] either came from the Prime Minister, or from the Civil Administration. Whichever it was, it is simply an attempt to pick a fight with us. These are two caravans that we put here two months ago as part of the natural growth of a normal, 9-year-old neighborhood in Yitzhar. No one ever warned us that they were unacceptable. If they had, we could have come to an agreement; we could have moved them to a better spot. But they came suddenly, with no warning and no dialogue and swooped down to destroy them.”
Libman also said that in light of yesterday’s events, “we asked the army to remove this unit from our premises. We have given them a compound of six or seven caravans, and we offer them coffee, and Sabbath food, and we are generally on good terms with them. But after such a thing as what happened yesterday, we feel that we can’t continue this way. We didn’t give an ultimatum, as the media reported, but merely explained our difficulties with the current situation.”
my mail is [email protected]
Im looking for contact with Jews living actually in Poland in order to ask them some questions about the anti-semitism situation there and other things about Poland.
CK, there was extensive stone throwing involved. In fact, there was also a soldier who shot a bullet (the IDF says into the air, the settlers say at them) because of the mayhem.
I am upset for the soldiers who have to implement these orders. This girl might not even live at this outpost. This girl in the photo is not an adult and yet adults are allowing her to be their front line of resistance. How is any of this justified? If it isn’t justified and if they are resorting to stone throwing, why shouldn’t they be jailed? Why would they stop doing this if there are no consequences? From their point of view, this picture is exactly what they seek to have in the papers, so this event is a victory for them.
It boggles the mind that you are truly unable to step back for a moment, T_M and see that these IDF soldiers are tragic victims here as much as those being expelled. Both are pawns in the Sharon government’s desperate attempt to create a poorly planned terror-state that will cost our people in blood and affect generations to come.
These people being thrown out of their homes are also soldiers. One brave soul, given the day off and uninformed of the rest of his unit’s shameful task, arrived home to find his unit was being used to destroy his brother’s prospective home.
He arrived on the scene, still in his uniform, and called upon his comrades to disobey the illegal order – and was arrested.
Today that Sergeant, an outstanding soldier, was offered a trial with his commanding officer (sure to be lenient) but refused, opting instead for a court-martial, where he will argue that he was opposing an illegal order and no matter what the verdict go down as a Jewish hero
How can you sit on the sidelines while these people sacrificed for something even you intimate you would believe in but which you have concluded it not “practical” “do-able” “sustainable”, etc.? How can you heap such scorn on them day after day.
Are you so blind to be unable to acknowledge the courage of people like this? Have you sacrificed for anything in a comparable manner at any point in your comfortable life? Do you really think these people are risking their lives out on these hills for the extra bed-room or mortgage discount?
You can’t bear to think that they may be more willing to sacrifice for a truth than you. You can’t even bear the thought that there might be a “truth” period.
All you do is use this page for posting your new-found favorite bumper sticker “Shalom L’Aza” and screaming your shrill slogans insisting that it is you and other pro-disengagement folk who have “suffered enough” on account of these freeloading settlers. Your continued pursuance of that line of reasoning is so incredibly hollow – even folks who are resigned to a Gaza withdrawal are disgusted by the hatred that drips from your words.
Everyone in those pictures at Yitzhar is serving their country – everyone serves as reservist and has an IDF uniform in their closet. The difference is that while the folks in uniform are giving three years and have the option of refusing (actively or passively (“Commander – my back hurts”)), the folks out of uniform are working full time for the country every day of every year.
Another thing – you love to talk about how you would totally be all for the settlers staying where they are and just the army pulling out – yet you loooove seeing them thrown out of their homes. You love it. If you are really anti-expulsion (because many in Yesha are more than happy to do their army duty at home on their Yishuv rather than driving all the way up north to their air force base to patrol the skies of Tel Aviv or to search the entire breadth of the stupid separation fence for tunnels following the ‘disengagement’) then don’t be like the masses of ‘anti-terror’ Arabs who just keep it bottled up inside – prove it. Let’s see some serious posts acknowledging the legal, moral and ethical problems of removal these people from their homes, destroying their life’s work, digging up their terror-victim parents and children and forcing them to move elsewhere simply because the media-driven masses have been convinced we still need to “try something.” Give me a break.
Let’s examine why the government insists on destroying everything these people have built instead of saying “ok, defend yourselves.”
How about a little acknowledgement of the courage of Sergeant Yosef Pilent.
“how about just removing the army altogether and leaving the settlers there, its their right to live wherever they want, for the most part. then they can fend for themselves or return to israel on their own, if theyre still in one piece that is.”
I absolutely, 100% agree with this sentiment.
Bottom line: Illegal outpost. This isn’t Efrat they are evacuating. It’s seriously upsetting to see this but I’m afraid it’s only going to get worse.
but the fact remains they are Israeli citizens, and for better or worse Israel will never, ever sit back and watch its citizens getting eaten alive anywhere in the world, let alone that close to home. It’s not a right to protect your citizens (from themselves at times), its a responsibility.
if that pic was of an arab girl, it would be on the front cover of every major newpaper in the world.
although i agree with disengagment, i think that the situation should come to a peaceful end. how about just removing the army altogether and leaving the settlers there, its their right to live wherever they want, for the most part. then they can fend for themselves or return to israel on their own, if theyre still in one piece that is.
Josh – you think we take pleasure in any of this? Sheesh.
Sadly,
this lady has legal rights to be removed only by women, not men. But settler rights don’t count, eh? Civil disobedience according to you means claiming the law is wrong, so mutually, the law does not apply to you either.
Yeah. They really shoulda thrown the book at those hardenned 15 year old girl criminals.
In most civilized western societies, that’s what the police usually do in cases of mostly harmless civil disobedience, capture and release.
Sadly, within hours the police released the 15 people they had arrested at this abomination.