Jewlicious

Orthodox attempting to address pre-marital sex

20 years ago
767 Comments
by themiddle
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I don’t have much to say about this unusual article regarding a recent forum held by certain leaders of the modern Ortho community in Israel. I do suggest you read it and the comments that follow. People can be fairly cruel.

For example, I find it shocking and sad that 30% of Orthodox women over 30 remain unmarried, when I presume that not only as a personal matter but also as one of faith, they would very much like to be married. Many of the comment writers, and presumably most Haredi rabbis, would rather these women (and the single men who haven’t found a partner) refrain from enjoying any form of sexual activity until marriage. Maybe it’s me, but sexuality does seem to be a natural and instinctive part of who we are as human beings. Suppressing it seems quite unnatural. Perhaps those who advocate the strictest interpretations of sexual engagement between people should take the natural next step, found some monasteries and call these unmarried individuals nuns?

Is something broken in the system here?

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  • People can justify anything under the sun for their own personal gain. We’re supposed to be a holy nation and it’s not holy for Jewish men to act like tramps.

  • As a modern orthodox girl, premarital sex is not allowed. There’s no debate. If a man has sex with a VIRGIN, he has to marry her and can only get out of that if her father refuses and THEN and ONLY THEN he must pay a dowry. If a woman “plays the harlot in her fathers house” she’s to be stoned (Judah and Tamar – although she wasn’t because she didn’t.

  • On behalf of the lowest, last level, who are not represented here, by the way:

    ME-OW!

  • Esther, “sex sells” – apparently so. Mix in some ego and the opportunity to justify drinking alcohol, and you’ll attract a large crowd in the Western hemisphere.

    I’ll translate a bonmot by Kurt Tucholsky: “Representative of a culture are not its top achievements, but the lowest, last level, the one that can only barely just exist.”

  • Re: bad boy/good boy: I’ll be happy to administer some kind of testing, though–in the name of science, of course.

    Alcohol consumption will be mandatory to relieve you of pesky inhibitions, so we can see what’s what 🙂

  • By hugging you mean shagging, Sarah?

    KIDDING, boys, kidding. I’m quite the wag.

  • ON DEMAND? eh, fuck it. It’s true. Muffti can confirm that the only thing that CK doesnt’ like about Muffti is his lack of bad-boyity. That and Muffti’s dishwashing skills.

  • No. We both know the muffster does not need to get women drunk. Nope. Heh. And we both know muffti will administer a hug on ck ON DEMAND, with or without the influence of alcohol.

    So wait Giyoret… muffti is the bad boy and I am the good boy???

    It’s at times like these I am happy that we keep our personal lives out of the blog.

    We love you all though! Hug, hug, kiss, kiss!

  • Muffti doesn’t need to get women drunk. and he doesn’t vomit.

    But he’ll have to drink an awful lot before he hugs CK!

  • Wait a sec–I’m the ONLY ONE getting drunken, unsolicited Jewlicious booty calls/texts (at my unpublished number (215) 555-6969)? Astonishing.

    So to sum up: Mufti likes recreational drinking of a wide variety of beverages that may or may not lead to recreational sex with partners that may or may not be acceptable in the cold light of day, while ck prefers high quality alcohol served in prescribed manners and limited doses so as to protect his ability to ascertain the sexual willingness of his potential paramours.

    (I am so digging on you two. It’s so hard to choose–that bad boy/good boy thing…heavy sigh) 😉

    In the end it’s sort of “Whatever floats your boat”, isn’t it?

    I think it’s fine for grown-ups to play, and playing responsibly makes it more enjoyable usually. So you both have a point.

    Go ahead. Hug each other. Let’s pop the champagne/PBR!!

  • The mix of jager and redbull is actually kind of pleasant. They balance eachother not so badly. As for the collegiate drinkers, Muffti doesn’t really care whether or not they are enjoying themselves – he only cares if HE is enjoying himself. and he postively enjoys the occasional J-bomb. and so would you if you could get the image of frat boys trying to get laid and windign up in vomit out of your head.

    And seriously, this idea of ‘ruining a good drink’…there is no shortage of jagermeister out there. and no huge demand of people that is driving it to scarcity.

    And this argument? It’s hillarious!

  • Muffti you shmendrick. You think those “collegiate drinkers” who wake in the morning in a pool of vomit are enjoying themselves? Do you think they even know that Jägermeister is properly served just below freezing? I’m not a weiner, I have no opposition to playing and having fun – but why not just have the red bull if you’re feeling sluggish after your 3rd drink Nancy boy? Why ruin a perfectly good Jägermeister (not Jaegermeister)? I drink when I want to, not when I feel I have to because all my frat brothers are and I’d never get laid without the help of alcohol. If a woman won’t willingly be with me while sober, it probably means she shouldn’t be with me. Nothing assholeish about that – it’s just smart.

    This argument is actually pretty funny when you think about it muffti.

    I mean really funny…

  • I’m not an Abolitionist by any means, mind you (I used to co-organize student parties and pub ralleys), but I treasure if people know when to talk and when to remain silent. As I just explained to Muffti via e-mail, I may even go out of my way to make sober people shut up.

    Also, as one grows more mature (not necessarily chronologically older), one may find oneself in a position where one can enjoy quality over quantity without missing quantity.
    ck, I’ve still got a two bottles of Rothschild in the cellar. Fancy?

    I’ll agree with Muffti that being drunk alone won’t make one a weirdo even though the odds might be higher then. But since Muffti’s got some more information on me than the others on here, I suppose he knows well enough what I was referring to.
    Muffti has never even called me at all though – neither drunk nor sober.

  • Yes, drunk people will tell you what is on their minds. But there is a subtle problem: THAT mind is not exactly their real mind. It has no nuances. Like an unproofed term paper. That is not what they REALLY think. They are also leaving stuff out, because they are on very narrow bandwidth. So it’s not worth anything.

    Two people who are both crocked are kidding themselves, and each other.

    It is a little like the blind leading the blind, when they both don’t know they are blind, and also think the other one is not blind.

    Sex between two crocked people is a solitary activity for both of them.

  • Au contraire, some states punish offences and crimes committed under the influence even more harshly than offences and crimes committed in a “sober” state of mind.

    There’s a reason why they say, “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool . . . ”
    Besides, I’m not too fond of nocturnal calls by lovestruck weirdoes.

  • It means that they will say what they really think without being hampered by social constraints.

    Isn’t this where we cue to Mel Gibson?

  • “In vino veritas” only just means that drunk people will tell you everything and anything that’s on their mind.

  • And what of “In vino veritas”, then?

    And “uninhibited” must be good for something. I agree that there are healthier ways to access that, and safer ones. But rather than see it as “kidding yourself” I do believe in some cases it actually encourages being very honest, without any filters.

  • Crocked people are not available. There is no use telling them an interesting story. They don’t hear more than a third of it.

    A little has its uses. Not every minute. Not as a crutch. Only around very safe, well-known people. And not much then.

    Alchohol is extremely useful for kidding yourself.

    But that isn’t nice. It would be a betrayal of trust. My own trust of me.

  • Sara, if you are a genuine child, instead of an FBI man, please avoid alchohol. As to the other thing, sex – they are not going to run out of it in the store. You will get yours. Don’t worry.

    Alcohol is NOT natural, unlike sex. A small amount has its uses, but you have every right to say, “I’m not old enough. Gimme a ginger ale.” You can say this at any age. Then, watch the fireworks, and find out who your real friends are, if any. Real friends are not common. The more they spit and sputter, the more you laugh, on the inside. Then find new friends.

    Nobody is going to take care of you except you.

    Alchohol is not charming even on boys. On girls, it is beyond disgusting. It is not a symmetrical universe, and alchohol hits girls and women much faster and harder than males, and the social consequences are much, much worse for them.

    There is no rush kid.

    GM, dig yourself.

  • Muffti, your mail, duh.

    Let’s face it, drinking is fun, period. And going with the flow is social and easy. It’s like when people say “I am as comfortable in jeans as I am in a ball gown.” Sometimes it’s champagne, sometimes it’s something goofy with an umbrella, sometimes it’s a Jager Bomb with a young guy who wants to get into your pants.

    Life is full of exciting possibilites, and it’s fun to go on all the rides.

  • Social networking channels?

    Overruled? Muffti is getting old but doesn’t suck on Single Malt Whiskeys. No one is recommending Jaeger Bombs as the end all be all of drinks, to use a phrase that is flying around. But it is a fine way to get yourself both innebriated and full of energy to beat the energy low that is associated with certain levels of alcohol consumption. It’s a fine mix and Muffti sees nothing wrong with playing with things while an adult, even if they were meant for ‘kids’.

    It’s only weeners who restrict their drinking to what CK is calling ‘quality alcohol’. Sure you should consume quality alcohol. But it’s only assholes who keep a policy to never drink otherwise when the situation calls for it.

    Sorry CK but gotta over rule you on this one. =

  • Sex not the be all and end all? Doesn’t seem that way when you’re not getting any! 🙂

    Hmmm.. I wouldn’t downplay the sublime, enduring and satisfying aspects of it. I don’t imagine it’s the same for a man, but as a woman–physically when you take someone into your body, believe me it is not localized, you are filled up everywhere, and connected, and that is absolutely sublime and satisfying. It seems to repair a lot of what gets chipped away by daily life, somehow. I can’t think of anything that compares at all. As for enduring–you have your memories, tactile ones, so I don’t think it disappears.

    Collegiate drinking is probably not going to get you close to what I’m talking about, of course. It’s a bad introduction. But drunken groping with the one you love can be fun. Especially with wine.

    Trendy frat drinks are silly and stupid, but harmless if kept under control. I don’t think they’re good as aphrodisiacs, though. So I guess it just depends on what you’re after.

    Is it happy hour yet? And is that Bolero in the background?

  • Good grief. Sex is not the be all and end all of human existence. There are things that are far more sublime, enduring and satisfying. Sex? Yeah definitely save it for someone you care about. The Jäger Bomb, a shot of Jägermeister dropped into a glass of Red Bull, is for children. Or young American drinkers with no appreciation for the consumption of quality Alcohol. Mixing Jägermeister with Red Bull… Jesus. Those are the same guys who get older and try to pretend they are sophisticated drinkers by insisting on Single Malt Whiskey. Suckers.

    Sara, never take advice from anyone who tells you Jäger Bombs are fine.

    Sorry muff, but I gotta over rule you on that one.

    🙂

  • Sara, did that answer your ‘shagging’ question? No ring, no mikvah, no shagging.

    Seriously though, you seem like a nice girl with a good head on your shoulders. It’s smart that you are considering the quality of your relationship before jumping into sex. I can’t speak for the male point of view, but from the female side, I’ll say this: sex is going to open you up to all kinds of things, not just physically, but emotionally and intellectually as well; the world is going to seem like a much different place. You’re going to get something out of every experience, learn something new about yourself, and you might as well make it positive. You can’t control everything, or other people, and can’t avoid painful situations that are going to arise from your relationships, but I do think you can minimize them by thinking things through and devising a personal philosophy before you’re in the heat of the moment. Decide what is right for you and what will make it a good experience. And save the alcohol for when you’re with someone you can trust, k? Drunken shagging is best enjoyed (and let’s face it, it can be LOTS of fun) with a BF/committed partner.

    Never forget that sex is one of the easiest things to find for women. Think about what works for you, because honestly, some women are fine with casual sex and some are not. You seem to want a steady guy, so wait for it.

    And when you’re ready and in love– WOW–seriously, you’re going to feel like you INVENTED it!!!!! 🙂

    Good luck from Auntie Giyoret (who must be ovulating)

    (In unrelated news: Muffti, check on your social networking channels…)

  • Liberal Judaism is always concerned about what feels good or is natural. Halacha doesn’t work that way. If the Torah traditions say something than it is not up for discussion. If touching a woman in an unpure state is forbidden than it is forbidden. The idea of a mikvah for unmarried woman may be an answer but it will be overused and it will destroy the Orthodox’s desire to keep marital relations as a special thing for married people. It may be easy for me to say, but a person should focus more on getting married than how to circumvent halacha to satisfy themselves.

  • never heared of jager bombs – but sounds cool.
    i didnt say they cant find – thing is the addicted ones dont want to find – wen they meet a gal/guy they dont wanna talk to them – get to no them – but jus wanna shag em
    i am not like that cos tis jus crazy.,
    so people like me need to find – serious companions –
    i dont mean serious for marriage but a good serious commited relationship that could be for like a year which is more then the users and addicted ones would ever dream of havin =- they wouldn’t be commited to one perosn cos they shag the world

  • I believe, Sara and Muffti, we have stumbled upon a greater problem that afflicts the youth of today: how do lusty, uncommitted teens who are having trouble finding “normal, natural, important” sexual activity gain access to the alcoholic beverages (“Jager Bombs”) that will, in reality, promote such activity?? Historically, alcohol has greased the wheels of more intimate encounters than KY and Astroglide combined. I have to wonder if there is a correlation between the drinking age and the “mounting” frustration, if you will, of today’s young adults. I am no sociologist, but in my limited experience lolling around nekkid in a succah, I can attest that the $1.00 beer nights in the bar across from said succah resulted in significantly more satisfactory community outreach—uh, from what I can remember.

    I believe it was Jung who said: “When the diagnosis is correct, the healing can begin.” When we address what may aptly be called “The Drinking Problem”, I believe we will resolve the dilemma of sexual dissatisfaction among our teens, as well.

  • Don’t listen to Giyoret, Sara. She lies around naked in succahs in philly. Jager bombs are a fine and fun past time when yuo are tired and want to get drunk enough to stop seeing so straight. Anyhow, sara, what do you recommend for all those teens who have trouble finding committed relationships? as you already said, sex is normal and natural and important. Why should people who can’t find perfect matches lose out???

  • Good girl, Sara..keep your legs crossed and stay away from Jager Bombs 🙂

  • i think sexual intercourse is such a normal and natural thing ——– that is actually so improtant that for a guy who is 19 and hasnt done much – is crazy
    since we humans have a sex drive that needs to be satisfied to a good degree.
    the problem is that frum teens who have been so deprived just become sexoholics.

    i am just a teenager myself and have met many teens from the ages of 16-22 and must say that i saw how the guys just do things with millions of girls and dont even want to get to know them – just have one night stands.

    the girls just become whores because they don’t realize that its so much better to onli do things in a relationship and when there is commitment.

    i am a teen myself and have fortuantly understood that so i would onli have sex in a committed relationship.

  • Masturbation

    The spilling of the seed that denies life to future generations. The perpetrator will be felled by God; he cannot be punished by a human court. Scripture tells us of Onan, who spilled his seed in order not to give children to his brother’s widow; God killed him (Gen. 38:9-10). His name has long been attached to the practice of self-gratification: onanism. It must be remembered that Onan’s act was motivated by ulterior considerations. By denying children to his brother’s widow, he himself stood to inherit a portion of his brother’s estate. Rabbinic injunction, however, is based on the act itself and sees it as forbidden by Torah.

    Under contemporary conditions, many of the acts that Torah prohibits no longer have a religious character. Masturbation, for example, has been recognized as harmless to health, and it is not motivated by the concerns that prompted Onan on the occasion reported in Scripture.

    Source: http://www.koshersex.com

  • The sin wasn’t actually the spilling of the seed, it was not impregnating his brother’s wife as required.

  • dear middle
    it’s like driving a prius,
    or staying tznius;
    values are as tough as regrowing hair,
    acing the LSAT’s, or renouncing beer!
    but seriously, you have an excellent point.
    intellectuals studying polygamy have found that
    most polygamous families live in poverty and are deeply religious. i am here to save single jewish women and live in poverty. hee hee!

  • I’ve never understood polygamy in the bigger picture. If the population is divided 50/50 men to women, some men have to remain bride-less. This sounds like a wonderful plan if only the well-to-do get to reproduce, but just as an example, in his NY Times interview, the 2006 Nobel prize winner for Chemistry, Roger Kornberg, told the paper that his $1.4 million prize wouldn’t go far because his professor’s income has forced him to take on debt. Does it make sense to let someone like that have fewer or no children than some guy who made a fortune in, say, real estate or retail?

  • polygamy is the key issue here. if orthodox men could have more than jest one wife, they wouldn’t be soooo picky. ever heard of a lonely mormon? it would also solve the shiduch rodeo show.
    HEYYYYYYYYYYY….date in a lobby
    so bored it’s like a bad hobby;
    it’s a shiduch date!
    swing yer pardner round and round
    the block of her house
    in a rich relative’s borrowed car
    it’s a shiduch date!
    anyone who’d like to join my new religion
    “jewmonism” give a shout out

  • The Jpost article was a step in the right direction. This issue needs to be addressed within the context of what is actually going on in the single Orthodox Jewish world. There are many FFB’s and BT’s who choose a long time ago to go in the direction of being shomer negiah because at the time it was the right choice. I made this choice to be shomer negiah because I had thought that I would have been married in my 20’s. I never thought I was going to have to wait until I was 30 to get married. But prior to being married I was very torn between what I thought was halachicly correct and the reality that I desperately wanted to have sex and experience this great pleasure. And after going to shiurim, lectures and Shabbatons where the rabbis and speakers talk about staying strong with the commitment to halacha, having faith that the right person comes along very soon and that the best way to stay focused is through constant learning of Torah, it just became annoying and at times a little insulting. These people could say all of this with the knowledge that they could go back to their spouses and bang all night while the rest of us were doomed to go back to our rooms and take a cold shower. For many of the older singles who flew the shomer negiah flag for a long time it was no longer possible to expect us to stay this path without completely losing our sanity. Granted, everyone has to make their own choices and for some reason I waited…a long time. But I’m not so sure how much longer I would have waited. And if there was a halachic way of going about it, wouldn’t that have been better instead of sexing it up with someone without a halachic way of approaching it?

  • Why address pre-marital sex? Just have Jews get married earlier! Jews need to get married earlier and have more children otherwise we will lose Israel and die, without even a fight.

    I’m getting married, and perhaps making aliyah after university of michigan. I will have at least 6 children, I’m hoping for more G-d willing.

  • Judaism has an old concept of concubinage lying around, a commitment that is clearly less than marriage and can be temporary. It was gotten rid of because marriage was thought to be a moral improvement. But if people aren’t willing to do marriage only and increasingly do something that walks and talks a lot like concubinage, maybe the old form should be brought back to life and used for the situation. It is, after all, part of the tradition. We didn’t have to get rid of it, and if we behave this way, perhaps we should use the traditional legal forms and concepts available to us to help deal with it.

  • Good comment, Sean, thanks.

    I recently read a stat that said that only 50% of eligible singles find spouses today. I don’t think members of the Jewish community are immune to some of the problems you describe.

    As for your other comment, what can I say, faith is not a rational thing.

    Most important, try the recipe in post 653. You’ll be impressed, and any woman you have over might offer to have your children.

    • The reason Jews aren’t getting married is b/c they can get the cow for free. So stop having sex (girls) as you make it impossible for an orthodox girl or mod orthodox girl to meet someone who won’t expect that from them. Your lewd behaviour destroys it for the rest of us.

  • I wandered into this site and discussion through an Internet-directed chain of links too long to describe. What a discussion. Comments: (1) People need to understand that marriage has become more infrequent not because of anything having to do with religion, or Judaism per se, or being observant (“frum”), etc. People in all cultures, host as well as minority (i.e. Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, Reform, Unaffiliated, Straight, Gay), are finding it increasingly difficult to find mates. Remember: Until about 75 years ago, in most societies, mates were selected by parents. Now we have to do so ourselves, and the venues and/or methods for meeting prospective spouses/companions/lovers were not invented until 1970 at least. It has nothing to do with being Jewish, or observant, or money, or the high cost of living well, or the availability of divorce, or sex, or anything else I have seen trumpeted in this thread. It is simply very difficult to find someone with whom one is emotionally compatible, sexually reasonably exciting and satisfying, intellectually reasonably stimulating, on a simlar level, etc. with whom one can fall in love, and who can also feel similarly to oneself. Most marriages were unsatisfying to one of the people, frequently both. And many remain so today. One of my friends once said that it is not love that sustains most relationships, but fear [of being single again]. Then again, for many it is precisely fear that prevents a relationship from beginning. This is a topic that can be, has been, and will be discussed ad infinitum. The only thing that rankled with me was how so many attitudes seem to be so parochially formed. Like Christian America doesn’t have the same problems discussed here? Including issues of religion and sex? All I can say is that to read a discussion about spilling-of-seed with the points of view expressed here was chilling. The same types of “authorities” respected here obtain in the Christian world; it is as if human progress ended in 1650. I cannot believe that otherwise intelligent people still believe things that would be questioned by any 10-year old brought up in a home where ideas are discussed rationally. Really.

  • I have heard so many storeis about the “rabbis” having no clue what the hell is going on out here. Sex is something that has been and always will be an issue in our community. I love how they target the YU crowd and meanwhile you wouldnt believe what goes on in Monsey, Brooklyn, Crown Heights and so on… So please before you start pointing out communities that are not your own, look at what is going on within the “FRUM” communities, sex, drugs, lies, hatred, jealousy, stupidity and CRIME!

  • That’s really intresting I’m a jewish girl from Italy and is the firt time i see a discussion like this.

  • nonreligious jews in the states talk about israel and religious jews talk about sex. Something missing?

  • here’s the deal, halachically if you go to the mikve, then you are not liable for karet. obviously you cant go sleeping around, but assuming you’re mongamous your status is the same as a concubine. if 10 shomer shabbat people know you are sleeping together though it counts as if you are married and you have to get a “get”. seperating the sexes is not the only solution. assuming your life is full of torah it wont be a problem untill you are in your early 20s and perhaps cannot marry for finacial, demographic reasons. more then that, given the current society we live in, it would avoid a significant number of lesser aveyras…such as hugging if all teenage girls went to the mikve. it will stop pressuring kids barely out of their teens into marriage and but at the same time avoid the willfull sinning of our youth. P.S there are already teenage girls who skinny dip/mikve so that they can hold hands with their boyfriends

  • My Last comment here didn’t make the recent comment board, so I’m not sure anyone saw it, or that it drew any attention…

  • Not to revive an old topic, especially when I havn’t actually read the topic at all. However, I did stumble across this newstory in JPost http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395620690&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    and it seems to speak to this topic, and it could be the start of a new discussion. (Maybe a new thread?) Anyway in case the link blows up during archiving, the text of the artical is as follows:
    ________________________________________________

    Kosher sex without marriage
    Matthew Wagner, THE JERUSALEM POST Mar. 16, 2006

    According to an article by Professor Tzvi Zohar of Bar Ilan University, which has aroused fervent debate in religious Zionist circles, the answer is yes, but only if the relationship is based on mutual respect and the woman immerses herself in a mikve [ritual bath].

    Zohar’s article, which appears in the latest edition of Akdamot, an academic journal on Jewish thought published by Beit Morasha, analyzes the opinions of leading halachic authorities from the Middle Ages, such as Nachmanides, to the modern era, such as Rabbi Ya’acov Emden, and shows that many permitted sexual relations without marriage.

    In the arrangement, sanctioned by Jewish law according to these opinions, the woman becomes a pilegesh, or concubine. Neither the man nor the woman has any obligations or rights. Both must adhere to family purity laws in accordance with halacha.

    According to halacha, a man is not allowed to come into physical contact with a woman after she has menstruated until she has immersed herself in a mikve. This prohibition is called nida.

    Young religious men and women who are committed to the halacha need no longer struggle with their libido, argues Zohar. All those hormones can be channeled into a kosher communion that is free of marital obligations.

    The article sparked major interest.

    “Never since we first established Akdamot ten years ago has there been so much interest in an article,” said Avi Berholz, Akdamot’s chief editor. “The rabbis are angry at us for publishing an article which they feel undermines the Jewish family,” said Berholz. “But more liberal elements within religious Zionism thank us for presenting this opinion.”

    Rabbi Ohad Tohar-Lev, who heads the Israeli program at Lindenbaum (Bruria), a yeshiva for young women aged 18 to 22, said that he fears the article will encourage more young religious people to have sexual intercourse before marriage.

    “It legitimizes licentiousness,” said Tohar-Lev, who, as a head of an institution that prepares religious women for army service, is considered liberal.

    “There are certain laws that are best kept secret. Zohar’s article will give some young people the justification they were looking for. Nobody wants to be a sinner.”

    Y., 21, a student at Lindenbaum, said that she has single religious friends who already know about Zohar’s solution and have used it.

    “The woman simply goes to a mikve before having sex and that’s it.”

    But Y. said that many of her friends, while committed to orthodoxy, do not adhere to the rules of nida.

    “I do not know whether they have intercourse. But I see them touching one another.”

  • I reckon that if we keep our sexual activities to ourselves everyone would be better off. Halacha is a guide…aint no lighting strikes these days. If an individual wishes to explore their sexuality its their business, the rabbi’s wont be watching. Besides, the sanctioning of these sorts of things keeps religion slightly seperate from the norm…. otherwise what would be the point?

  • Interesting idea to regulate premarital sex by having people formally declare their unions.

    I have two words for this. What-Ever.

    What’s the underlying goal there?

    Are we trying to institute some kind of deterrent?

    Are we assuming there is some inherent value of having the community know what people do? If yes, maybe we should all open our bank accounts to each other as well…

    Is this about the children? Because if yes, let’s just take the stigma away from single motherdom and have a real community support system. Because every girl I know has a friend who’s had a secret abortion.

    Ugh.

  • Hey how about that old Scottish custom of handfasting? It was kinda a trial marrage and it lasted only a year. After the year you could go your seperate ways or marry for real~~whatever! Oh yeah any children born in that year are legitimate.

  • Is Kelly still around? I live in South Florida and I think we might have a lot in common.

  • Refraining from pre-marital sex has nothing to do with what’s ‘natural’. The most natural thing is not necessarily the most holy thing in Judaism. THink of a circumcision. Whether or not something is ‘natural’ doesn’t make it better.

  • so people are screwing around. im not sure if i care but i find myslef strangly interisted in the topic. i live in crown heights where unbelievibly this shit accures rather openly with in small circles, and then a gust of gossip will blow from circle to circle untill we all fricken know. i would love to start my own CH sex blogg but im to fucken lazy

  • As for replying to the initial topic of premarital sex, my opinion, as a conservative Jewish male, who has experienced pre-marital casual sex, I feel that the traditions that the torah set out should not be altered. For one, there can be feelings of regret after a sexual encounter. Marriage should start with two people having never spent time feeling each other experience their first encounter of euphoria, the ultimate engaging experience. Furthermore, it would be both embarrassing and difficult for one partner to be experienced in sex and the other not. There is also the emotional difficulty of comparing partners. Although the typical orthodox student or adult is fully exposed to sexual content everyday, they must understand the importance of waiting until marriage for sex. The rules Hashem have set out and the traditions our ancestors set out, and the struggles we dealt with no matter how religious we were; having to deal with the Holocaust, Terrorist attacks in the homeland of all Jewish people and the individuals hardships each individual deals with to keep the faith of Judaism alive and Israel strong and united should not be tested or tempted to satisfy the unnecessary temptations of premarital sex. Trust me through experience sex with someone you feel little emotion for isn’t great anyways. If I offended anyone I apologize, but please keep in mind all Jews are champions no matter how they were brought up or how they live there lives.

  • The majority of you people seem scared of sex and thats sad. You all live a life where your everydays acts of love are censored. Im glad i am not religious in any sort of way. You are all so pathetic

    • you’re pathetic as you sound as if you’re entirely ruled by your emotion and that’s a weakness. As Jewish people, we’re commanded to be holy. In the Torah, people can have sex, it encourages it. Our Cohen priests are married and have wives. It’s a commandment to be fruitful and multiply but to do so in the context of something that’s holy. If you take something that’s supposed to be holy, something that’s supposed to bring life into this world and you make it something that’s dirty, something with our Godly soul that we’re supposed to elevate and you don’t elevate it than that’s sad.

  • Shmuley? Who? Forget that.

    The point is to clean up the animal aspect and make it human. Not easy! Everybody has a raped ancestress, way back. As way back as possible.

    Here is the zinger: all is not well with your instincts. You have been bamboozled by an overdose of German psychology, and fallen of the Temple Mount head first, crash, ouch, too stunned to even know what hit you.

    If you have no instincts, you have nothing.

    I am too embarrassed to explain the need for delicacy. Nobody should ever be too afraid of being thought un-modern to be disgusted. A sense of YUCK is one’s most precious possession. It takes guts to hold onto it. If you have no guts, nothing.

    I admire this Esther. She does not scare. Go girl. Does she eat an iron-rich breakfast cereal?

  • Playful fantasy within a mutually consensual context is one thing. (Even Shmuley says it’s okay : “If a husband and wife want to use handcuffs to light their fire, who cares?”)

    Maybe it was the words “violence” (absent of the “playful” qualifier) and “choking the girl” that didn’t seem especially healthy or playful to me.

    And as for “pish” posh, I think you’re looking for Chutzpah’s stories on the other thread.

  • Oh pish posh. First of all, I had to comment because I did not want to see 666 comments – know what I mean? And second of all it is totally normal for consenting adults to incorporate playful violence into their lovemaking.

  • Okay:

    Bios

    Jewlicious

    When you go to the second link, our home page, you can enter any topic by clicking on its title. That will bring up both the topic and its comments.

    You also have a search function where if you enter a word such as “Arafat” you can find all the posts and comments that contain that word.

    We also have archives on the side. Click into any month and you will find our old posts and discussions, particularly the really good ones these guys used to have before I joined and mucked things up.

    Do it, JM, just do it and let this godforsaken discussion reach its natural demise before Jewlicious does.

  • I got lost. When I got there I did not know where to go in. Post full link? What’s the bio? But I do not want to read the bio. I hate resumes outside of work.

  • JM: haven’t you read the bio? CK is the leader. Muffti just follows any fool idea he has.

  • JM, you may not leave the table just yet. We are moving into the living room for coffee and cake, and we’ll clean up the mess later.

    You can find the living room here (that’s right, put your mouse on the link, and click). Just find a chair that feels comfy and feel free to participate in the conversation. Once somebody enters our home, we are reluctant to watch them leave, but that is doubly true for you.

  • Will do. Thank you all for your sparkling company. You are all wonderful.

  • ck can’t get any nooky because you insist on posting on this topic despite the fact that I told you that it hurts the server!!! And when you hurt the server, you hurt ck! But yes Jewish Mother… do try shakshuka and follow the instructions to the letter especially what day of the week to make it and when exactly to eat it.

  • You don’t know everything about me. I am Ashkenaz but I cook with ginger. I put fresh cilantro in everything. However, I never bother with fresh garlic because of its short shelf life, and I can’t see any difference between fresh ground and ready-ground black pepper. Only Hungarian paprika has any taste, although the American kind can give color, but I don’t own any. I love “Mrs. Dash”, scoff if you will. But I am extremely happy to learn about Shaksuka!! Should this noble recipe die with you??? I believe in you. Please believe in the future. Please believe in each other. You are so cranky. You are crying in your shushaka. Try to calm down and stop being scared. What man can do, and has done, you can do. GM, some leadership, please. YOU be the first to marry. You can have Esther. CK has not made a fast enough move, or they would be whispering in the shadows, ignoring us, and she is still posting. Leave poor G-d alone. You and He can catch up later.

  • Esther: Muffti thinks that was some funny shit.

    Michael: Glad to hear Muffti left a good impression. Muffti is not a puker, so your floor was safe. Glad to hear that the shikseh is still shikseh-licious.

  • Michael: 15-20 big cans? Boy, you got it bad. But yeah, the more the merrier. Now go somewhere else!!!

  • OK Jewish Mother. Shaksuka is what makes Sephardic men so virile and Sephardic women so fierce and sexy. You can view my Mom’s recipe for it here. It’s really just a simple kinda salsa, but it’s simplicity belies its mystical prowess. Beware – this may cause an interest in Sephardic cuisine and then you’ll have to go off to the store and buy all kindsa new spices and stuff. I mean other than the salt, pepper and paprika you no doubt already have. Now for THE LOVE OF OUR SERVERS – stop posting here! 653 comments makes our database cry!

  • Shakshuka is something that will make you never want to even look at kugel again. Shakshuka is proof that there is a G-d who loves his people Israel.

    Shakshuka, for want of a better term, is North African tomato stew with eggs. Moroccans say it’s Moroccan, Libyans say it’s Libyan. Whatever. It’s good. It takes a hell of a long time to make, but I still make it all the time, because it makes me glad to be alive.

    Here’s ck’s mom Brakha’s recipe. I would recommend using between fifteen and twenty big cans of tomatoes instead of six and likewise increasing everything else, but I really like shakshuka too.

  • What amazing children. What is shakshouka? And you can both spell it and make it. What a cool woman. I was just kidding about the pies. Too fattening. Maybe once in a while. Sounded more romantic than meat loaf. Organic food was invented when I was already grown up, and I was strong as a horse from eating what came before it. I never ate Wonder bread, tuna melt or macaroni and cheese. My mom made the plain food described above, hip avant la lettre. Somebody marry Esther. She is SO cute. I don’t know half the words she uses.

    Esther and I need company. Are there other women out there?

  • You know, JM’s right — contrary to what one might expect from his Jewlicious posts, Muffti actually is pretty civil-mannered. He bought all the drinks and unlike most people who visit New Orleans, he didn’t puke all over the floor. Also, he left his towel, and as well all know, nothing in the galaxy is more useful than a towel. So maybe there’s hope yet! It could be a Jewlicious contest: Who Wants to Marry the Muffti?

    Muffti, I’m happy to report that Jesus is alive and well in the hearts of the kind of fat old white people who like to stand around on Bourbon Street with bullhorns yelling at gay people, and the shiksa who put on my tzitzit is still practicing mild blasphemy to the delight of friends and passers-by.

  • “Hi, and welcome to Jewlicious’s dating service, featuring Shadchanit Jewish Mother in her valiant attempt to see us all married and taken care of, making non-organic pies for our beloveds.

    To date Muffti, press 1 and at the beep) declare in third person that there is no God. To date CK, press 2 and (at the beep) yell “Sephardim rule!” and then, using the keypad, key in your recipe for shakshouka. To date TM, press 3, invent flux capacitor (“which is what makes time travel possible”), get in time machine, and travel back to undetermined year in which he was actually single, then dress as cheer-leader and wait on his doorstep.”

  • I just meant people should put shoulder to wheel, and not be too lefty-pure to do what is necessary to get the fridge filled. And NOT from Whole Foods. No designer food. Fresh plain food. Kosher meat, potatoes, salads, home made soup, high fiber bread, eggs, rice, beans, barley, parsley, carrots, apples, bananas. Kedem grape juice. From the A&P or Gristedes. Take your lunch to work. TM, don’t worry. When people have a sufficient reason to get practical, they get practical. These are grown-ups. They, he, will rise to the occasion. A civil-mannered, reliable man with a good memory cannot be stopped in America. GM may do law. And, education has other levels than university, and the clientele is smarter the lower in age you go.

    Jewish women are invited to consider GM as worth feeding. Seems to have some grit. So what if he talks in the third person? Probably wouldn’t do that at home. Maritally serious responses only. Must have thoughtful eyes, a kind manner, and faith in something, especially dinner. Ahoy? I promise not to grill you.