I don’t have much to say about this unusual article regarding a recent forum held by certain leaders of the modern Ortho community in Israel. I do suggest you read it and the comments that follow. People can be fairly cruel.
For example, I find it shocking and sad that 30% of Orthodox women over 30 remain unmarried, when I presume that not only as a personal matter but also as one of faith, they would very much like to be married. Many of the comment writers, and presumably most Haredi rabbis, would rather these women (and the single men who haven’t found a partner) refrain from enjoying any form of sexual activity until marriage. Maybe it’s me, but sexuality does seem to be a natural and instinctive part of who we are as human beings. Suppressing it seems quite unnatural. Perhaps those who advocate the strictest interpretations of sexual engagement between people should take the natural next step, found some monasteries and call these unmarried individuals nuns?
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People can justify anything under the sun for their own personal gain. We’re supposed to be a holy nation and it’s not holy for Jewish men to act like tramps.
As a modern orthodox girl, premarital sex is not allowed. There’s no debate. If a man has sex with a VIRGIN, he has to marry her and can only get out of that if her father refuses and THEN and ONLY THEN he must pay a dowry. If a woman “plays the harlot in her fathers house” she’s to be stoned (Judah and Tamar – although she wasn’t because she didn’t.
Being the can opener of five kittens, I can say they definitely are not low maintenance.
On behalf of the lowest, last level, who are not represented here, by the way:
ME-OW!
Esther, “sex sells” – apparently so. Mix in some ego and the opportunity to justify drinking alcohol, and you’ll attract a large crowd in the Western hemisphere.
I’ll translate a bonmot by Kurt Tucholsky: “Representative of a culture are not its top achievements, but the lowest, last level, the one that can only barely just exist.”
I cannot believe we’re back to this post again. Sex, sex, sex….jeez, people.
Giyoret, I’m taken, so a shag didn’t come to mind, but both lads certainly are handsome.
Re: bad boy/good boy: I’ll be happy to administer some kind of testing, though–in the name of science, of course.
Alcohol consumption will be mandatory to relieve you of pesky inhibitions, so we can see what’s what 🙂
By hugging you mean shagging, Sarah?
KIDDING, boys, kidding. I’m quite the wag.
You both are hugging material.
ON DEMAND? eh, fuck it. It’s true. Muffti can confirm that the only thing that CK doesnt’ like about Muffti is his lack of bad-boyity. That and Muffti’s dishwashing skills.
No. We both know the muffster does not need to get women drunk. Nope. Heh. And we both know muffti will administer a hug on ck ON DEMAND, with or without the influence of alcohol.
So wait Giyoret… muffti is the bad boy and I am the good boy???
It’s at times like these I am happy that we keep our personal lives out of the blog.
We love you all though! Hug, hug, kiss, kiss!
Muffti, ck, please be nice to each other. Do it for me, will you?
Muffti doesn’t need to get women drunk. and he doesn’t vomit.
But he’ll have to drink an awful lot before he hugs CK!
(agreed. J-bombs can be fun! Shhhh…)
Wait a sec–I’m the ONLY ONE getting drunken, unsolicited Jewlicious booty calls/texts (at my unpublished number (215) 555-6969)? Astonishing.
So to sum up: Mufti likes recreational drinking of a wide variety of beverages that may or may not lead to recreational sex with partners that may or may not be acceptable in the cold light of day, while ck prefers high quality alcohol served in prescribed manners and limited doses so as to protect his ability to ascertain the sexual willingness of his potential paramours.
(I am so digging on you two. It’s so hard to choose–that bad boy/good boy thing…heavy sigh) 😉
In the end it’s sort of “Whatever floats your boat”, isn’t it?
I think it’s fine for grown-ups to play, and playing responsibly makes it more enjoyable usually. So you both have a point.
Go ahead. Hug each other. Let’s pop the champagne/PBR!!
The mix of jager and redbull is actually kind of pleasant. They balance eachother not so badly. As for the collegiate drinkers, Muffti doesn’t really care whether or not they are enjoying themselves – he only cares if HE is enjoying himself. and he postively enjoys the occasional J-bomb. and so would you if you could get the image of frat boys trying to get laid and windign up in vomit out of your head.
And seriously, this idea of ‘ruining a good drink’…there is no shortage of jagermeister out there. and no huge demand of people that is driving it to scarcity.
And this argument? It’s hillarious!
Muffti you shmendrick. You think those “collegiate drinkers” who wake in the morning in a pool of vomit are enjoying themselves? Do you think they even know that Jägermeister is properly served just below freezing? I’m not a weiner, I have no opposition to playing and having fun – but why not just have the red bull if you’re feeling sluggish after your 3rd drink Nancy boy? Why ruin a perfectly good Jägermeister (not Jaegermeister)? I drink when I want to, not when I feel I have to because all my frat brothers are and I’d never get laid without the help of alcohol. If a woman won’t willingly be with me while sober, it probably means she shouldn’t be with me. Nothing assholeish about that – it’s just smart.
This argument is actually pretty funny when you think about it muffti.
I mean really funny…
I’m not an Abolitionist by any means, mind you (I used to co-organize student parties and pub ralleys), but I treasure if people know when to talk and when to remain silent. As I just explained to Muffti via e-mail, I may even go out of my way to make sober people shut up.
Also, as one grows more mature (not necessarily chronologically older), one may find oneself in a position where one can enjoy quality over quantity without missing quantity.
ck, I’ve still got a two bottles of Rothschild in the cellar. Fancy?
I’ll agree with Muffti that being drunk alone won’t make one a weirdo even though the odds might be higher then. But since Muffti’s got some more information on me than the others on here, I suppose he knows well enough what I was referring to.
Muffti has never even called me at all though – neither drunk nor sober.
It does.
Yes, drunk people will tell you what is on their minds. But there is a subtle problem: THAT mind is not exactly their real mind. It has no nuances. Like an unproofed term paper. That is not what they REALLY think. They are also leaving stuff out, because they are on very narrow bandwidth. So it’s not worth anything.
Two people who are both crocked are kidding themselves, and each other.
It is a little like the blind leading the blind, when they both don’t know they are blind, and also think the other one is not blind.
Sex between two crocked people is a solitary activity for both of them.
They’re called ‘booty calls’ and being drunk does not make you a wierdo!
I meant in general, not about lovestruck weirdos, but whatevs..
Au contraire, some states punish offences and crimes committed under the influence even more harshly than offences and crimes committed in a “sober” state of mind.
There’s a reason why they say, “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool . . . ”
Besides, I’m not too fond of nocturnal calls by lovestruck weirdoes.
It means that they will say what they really think without being hampered by social constraints.
Isn’t this where we cue to Mel Gibson?
“In vino veritas” only just means that drunk people will tell you everything and anything that’s on their mind.
Muffti understands.
And what of “In vino veritas”, then?
And “uninhibited” must be good for something. I agree that there are healthier ways to access that, and safer ones. But rather than see it as “kidding yourself” I do believe in some cases it actually encourages being very honest, without any filters.
Crocked people are not available. There is no use telling them an interesting story. They don’t hear more than a third of it.
A little has its uses. Not every minute. Not as a crutch. Only around very safe, well-known people. And not much then.
Alchohol is extremely useful for kidding yourself.
But that isn’t nice. It would be a betrayal of trust. My own trust of me.
MySpace
Muffti’s mail? Muffti appologizes but he is entirely confused.
Sara, if you are a genuine child, instead of an FBI man, please avoid alchohol. As to the other thing, sex – they are not going to run out of it in the store. You will get yours. Don’t worry.
Alcohol is NOT natural, unlike sex. A small amount has its uses, but you have every right to say, “I’m not old enough. Gimme a ginger ale.” You can say this at any age. Then, watch the fireworks, and find out who your real friends are, if any. Real friends are not common. The more they spit and sputter, the more you laugh, on the inside. Then find new friends.
Nobody is going to take care of you except you.
Alchohol is not charming even on boys. On girls, it is beyond disgusting. It is not a symmetrical universe, and alchohol hits girls and women much faster and harder than males, and the social consequences are much, much worse for them.
There is no rush kid.
GM, dig yourself.
Muffti, your mail, duh.
Let’s face it, drinking is fun, period. And going with the flow is social and easy. It’s like when people say “I am as comfortable in jeans as I am in a ball gown.” Sometimes it’s champagne, sometimes it’s something goofy with an umbrella, sometimes it’s a Jager Bomb with a young guy who wants to get into your pants.
Life is full of exciting possibilites, and it’s fun to go on all the rides.
Social networking channels?
Overruled? Muffti is getting old but doesn’t suck on Single Malt Whiskeys. No one is recommending Jaeger Bombs as the end all be all of drinks, to use a phrase that is flying around. But it is a fine way to get yourself both innebriated and full of energy to beat the energy low that is associated with certain levels of alcohol consumption. It’s a fine mix and Muffti sees nothing wrong with playing with things while an adult, even if they were meant for ‘kids’.
It’s only weeners who restrict their drinking to what CK is calling ‘quality alcohol’. Sure you should consume quality alcohol. But it’s only assholes who keep a policy to never drink otherwise when the situation calls for it.
Sorry CK but gotta over rule you on this one. =
Sex not the be all and end all? Doesn’t seem that way when you’re not getting any! 🙂
Hmmm.. I wouldn’t downplay the sublime, enduring and satisfying aspects of it. I don’t imagine it’s the same for a man, but as a woman–physically when you take someone into your body, believe me it is not localized, you are filled up everywhere, and connected, and that is absolutely sublime and satisfying. It seems to repair a lot of what gets chipped away by daily life, somehow. I can’t think of anything that compares at all. As for enduring–you have your memories, tactile ones, so I don’t think it disappears.
Collegiate drinking is probably not going to get you close to what I’m talking about, of course. It’s a bad introduction. But drunken groping with the one you love can be fun. Especially with wine.
Trendy frat drinks are silly and stupid, but harmless if kept under control. I don’t think they’re good as aphrodisiacs, though. So I guess it just depends on what you’re after.
Is it happy hour yet? And is that Bolero in the background?
Good grief. Sex is not the be all and end all of human existence. There are things that are far more sublime, enduring and satisfying. Sex? Yeah definitely save it for someone you care about. The Jäger Bomb, a shot of Jägermeister dropped into a glass of Red Bull, is for children. Or young American drinkers with no appreciation for the consumption of quality Alcohol. Mixing Jägermeister with Red Bull… Jesus. Those are the same guys who get older and try to pretend they are sophisticated drinkers by insisting on Single Malt Whiskey. Suckers.
Sara, never take advice from anyone who tells you Jäger Bombs are fine.
Sorry muff, but I gotta over rule you on that one.
🙂
thanks giyoret – you sound so understanding and caring.
Sara, did that answer your ‘shagging’ question? No ring, no mikvah, no shagging.
Seriously though, you seem like a nice girl with a good head on your shoulders. It’s smart that you are considering the quality of your relationship before jumping into sex. I can’t speak for the male point of view, but from the female side, I’ll say this: sex is going to open you up to all kinds of things, not just physically, but emotionally and intellectually as well; the world is going to seem like a much different place. You’re going to get something out of every experience, learn something new about yourself, and you might as well make it positive. You can’t control everything, or other people, and can’t avoid painful situations that are going to arise from your relationships, but I do think you can minimize them by thinking things through and devising a personal philosophy before you’re in the heat of the moment. Decide what is right for you and what will make it a good experience. And save the alcohol for when you’re with someone you can trust, k? Drunken shagging is best enjoyed (and let’s face it, it can be LOTS of fun) with a BF/committed partner.
Never forget that sex is one of the easiest things to find for women. Think about what works for you, because honestly, some women are fine with casual sex and some are not. You seem to want a steady guy, so wait for it.
And when you’re ready and in love– WOW–seriously, you’re going to feel like you INVENTED it!!!!! 🙂
Good luck from Auntie Giyoret (who must be ovulating)
(In unrelated news: Muffti, check on your social networking channels…)
Liberal Judaism is always concerned about what feels good or is natural. Halacha doesn’t work that way. If the Torah traditions say something than it is not up for discussion. If touching a woman in an unpure state is forbidden than it is forbidden. The idea of a mikvah for unmarried woman may be an answer but it will be overused and it will destroy the Orthodox’s desire to keep marital relations as a special thing for married people. It may be easy for me to say, but a person should focus more on getting married than how to circumvent halacha to satisfy themselves.
Dr. Muffti, this one is all yours… 🙂
giyoret i didnt say i wont have sex – jus need to find the right guy
never heared of jager bombs – but sounds cool.
i didnt say they cant find – thing is the addicted ones dont want to find – wen they meet a gal/guy they dont wanna talk to them – get to no them – but jus wanna shag em
i am not like that cos tis jus crazy.,
so people like me need to find – serious companions –
i dont mean serious for marriage but a good serious commited relationship that could be for like a year which is more then the users and addicted ones would ever dream of havin =- they wouldn’t be commited to one perosn cos they shag the world
I believe, Sara and Muffti, we have stumbled upon a greater problem that afflicts the youth of today: how do lusty, uncommitted teens who are having trouble finding “normal, natural, important” sexual activity gain access to the alcoholic beverages (“Jager Bombs”) that will, in reality, promote such activity?? Historically, alcohol has greased the wheels of more intimate encounters than KY and Astroglide combined. I have to wonder if there is a correlation between the drinking age and the “mounting†frustration, if you will, of today’s young adults. I am no sociologist, but in my limited experience lolling around nekkid in a succah, I can attest that the $1.00 beer nights in the bar across from said succah resulted in significantly more satisfactory community outreach—uh, from what I can remember.
I believe it was Jung who said: “When the diagnosis is correct, the healing can begin.†When we address what may aptly be called “The Drinking Problemâ€, I believe we will resolve the dilemma of sexual dissatisfaction among our teens, as well.
Don’t listen to Giyoret, Sara. She lies around naked in succahs in philly. Jager bombs are a fine and fun past time when yuo are tired and want to get drunk enough to stop seeing so straight. Anyhow, sara, what do you recommend for all those teens who have trouble finding committed relationships? as you already said, sex is normal and natural and important. Why should people who can’t find perfect matches lose out???
Good girl, Sara..keep your legs crossed and stay away from Jager Bombs 🙂
i think sexual intercourse is such a normal and natural thing ——– that is actually so improtant that for a guy who is 19 and hasnt done much – is crazy
since we humans have a sex drive that needs to be satisfied to a good degree.
the problem is that frum teens who have been so deprived just become sexoholics.
i am just a teenager myself and have met many teens from the ages of 16-22 and must say that i saw how the guys just do things with millions of girls and dont even want to get to know them – just have one night stands.
the girls just become whores because they don’t realize that its so much better to onli do things in a relationship and when there is commitment.
i am a teen myself and have fortuantly understood that so i would onli have sex in a committed relationship.
Masturbation
The spilling of the seed that denies life to future generations. The perpetrator will be felled by God; he cannot be punished by a human court. Scripture tells us of Onan, who spilled his seed in order not to give children to his brother’s widow; God killed him (Gen. 38:9-10). His name has long been attached to the practice of self-gratification: onanism. It must be remembered that Onan’s act was motivated by ulterior considerations. By denying children to his brother’s widow, he himself stood to inherit a portion of his brother’s estate. Rabbinic injunction, however, is based on the act itself and sees it as forbidden by Torah.
Under contemporary conditions, many of the acts that Torah prohibits no longer have a religious character. Masturbation, for example, has been recognized as harmless to health, and it is not motivated by the concerns that prompted Onan on the occasion reported in Scripture.
Source: http://www.koshersex.com
I think Asher deserves a prize for comment # 700.
The sin wasn’t actually the spilling of the seed, it was not impregnating his brother’s wife as required.
dear middle
it’s like driving a prius,
or staying tznius;
values are as tough as regrowing hair,
acing the LSAT’s, or renouncing beer!
but seriously, you have an excellent point.
intellectuals studying polygamy have found that
most polygamous families live in poverty and are deeply religious. i am here to save single jewish women and live in poverty. hee hee!
I’ve never understood polygamy in the bigger picture. If the population is divided 50/50 men to women, some men have to remain bride-less. This sounds like a wonderful plan if only the well-to-do get to reproduce, but just as an example, in his NY Times interview, the 2006 Nobel prize winner for Chemistry, Roger Kornberg, told the paper that his $1.4 million prize wouldn’t go far because his professor’s income has forced him to take on debt. Does it make sense to let someone like that have fewer or no children than some guy who made a fortune in, say, real estate or retail?
polygamy is the key issue here. if orthodox men could have more than jest one wife, they wouldn’t be soooo picky. ever heard of a lonely mormon? it would also solve the shiduch rodeo show.
HEYYYYYYYYYYY….date in a lobby
so bored it’s like a bad hobby;
it’s a shiduch date!
swing yer pardner round and round
the block of her house
in a rich relative’s borrowed car
it’s a shiduch date!
anyone who’d like to join my new religion
“jewmonism” give a shout out
fuck you all terrorists and children killers (israilis)
The Jpost article was a step in the right direction. This issue needs to be addressed within the context of what is actually going on in the single Orthodox Jewish world. There are many FFB’s and BT’s who choose a long time ago to go in the direction of being shomer negiah because at the time it was the right choice. I made this choice to be shomer negiah because I had thought that I would have been married in my 20’s. I never thought I was going to have to wait until I was 30 to get married. But prior to being married I was very torn between what I thought was halachicly correct and the reality that I desperately wanted to have sex and experience this great pleasure. And after going to shiurim, lectures and Shabbatons where the rabbis and speakers talk about staying strong with the commitment to halacha, having faith that the right person comes along very soon and that the best way to stay focused is through constant learning of Torah, it just became annoying and at times a little insulting. These people could say all of this with the knowledge that they could go back to their spouses and bang all night while the rest of us were doomed to go back to our rooms and take a cold shower. For many of the older singles who flew the shomer negiah flag for a long time it was no longer possible to expect us to stay this path without completely losing our sanity. Granted, everyone has to make their own choices and for some reason I waited…a long time. But I’m not so sure how much longer I would have waited. And if there was a halachic way of going about it, wouldn’t that have been better instead of sexing it up with someone without a halachic way of approaching it?
Why address pre-marital sex? Just have Jews get married earlier! Jews need to get married earlier and have more children otherwise we will lose Israel and die, without even a fight.
I’m getting married, and perhaps making aliyah after university of michigan. I will have at least 6 children, I’m hoping for more G-d willing.
Judaism has an old concept of concubinage lying around, a commitment that is clearly less than marriage and can be temporary. It was gotten rid of because marriage was thought to be a moral improvement. But if people aren’t willing to do marriage only and increasingly do something that walks and talks a lot like concubinage, maybe the old form should be brought back to life and used for the situation. It is, after all, part of the tradition. We didn’t have to get rid of it, and if we behave this way, perhaps we should use the traditional legal forms and concepts available to us to help deal with it.
Good comment, Sean, thanks.
I recently read a stat that said that only 50% of eligible singles find spouses today. I don’t think members of the Jewish community are immune to some of the problems you describe.
As for your other comment, what can I say, faith is not a rational thing.
Most important, try the recipe in post 653. You’ll be impressed, and any woman you have over might offer to have your children.
The reason Jews aren’t getting married is b/c they can get the cow for free. So stop having sex (girls) as you make it impossible for an orthodox girl or mod orthodox girl to meet someone who won’t expect that from them. Your lewd behaviour destroys it for the rest of us.
I wandered into this site and discussion through an Internet-directed chain of links too long to describe. What a discussion. Comments: (1) People need to understand that marriage has become more infrequent not because of anything having to do with religion, or Judaism per se, or being observant (“frum”), etc. People in all cultures, host as well as minority (i.e. Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, Reform, Unaffiliated, Straight, Gay), are finding it increasingly difficult to find mates. Remember: Until about 75 years ago, in most societies, mates were selected by parents. Now we have to do so ourselves, and the venues and/or methods for meeting prospective spouses/companions/lovers were not invented until 1970 at least. It has nothing to do with being Jewish, or observant, or money, or the high cost of living well, or the availability of divorce, or sex, or anything else I have seen trumpeted in this thread. It is simply very difficult to find someone with whom one is emotionally compatible, sexually reasonably exciting and satisfying, intellectually reasonably stimulating, on a simlar level, etc. with whom one can fall in love, and who can also feel similarly to oneself. Most marriages were unsatisfying to one of the people, frequently both. And many remain so today. One of my friends once said that it is not love that sustains most relationships, but fear [of being single again]. Then again, for many it is precisely fear that prevents a relationship from beginning. This is a topic that can be, has been, and will be discussed ad infinitum. The only thing that rankled with me was how so many attitudes seem to be so parochially formed. Like Christian America doesn’t have the same problems discussed here? Including issues of religion and sex? All I can say is that to read a discussion about spilling-of-seed with the points of view expressed here was chilling. The same types of “authorities” respected here obtain in the Christian world; it is as if human progress ended in 1650. I cannot believe that otherwise intelligent people still believe things that would be questioned by any 10-year old brought up in a home where ideas are discussed rationally. Really.
I have heard so many storeis about the “rabbis” having no clue what the hell is going on out here. Sex is something that has been and always will be an issue in our community. I love how they target the YU crowd and meanwhile you wouldnt believe what goes on in Monsey, Brooklyn, Crown Heights and so on… So please before you start pointing out communities that are not your own, look at what is going on within the “FRUM” communities, sex, drugs, lies, hatred, jealousy, stupidity and CRIME!
That’s really intresting I’m a jewish girl from Italy and is the firt time i see a discussion like this.
nice post 687
nonreligious jews in the states talk about israel and religious jews talk about sex. Something missing?
here’s the deal, halachically if you go to the mikve, then you are not liable for karet. obviously you cant go sleeping around, but assuming you’re mongamous your status is the same as a concubine. if 10 shomer shabbat people know you are sleeping together though it counts as if you are married and you have to get a “get”. seperating the sexes is not the only solution. assuming your life is full of torah it wont be a problem untill you are in your early 20s and perhaps cannot marry for finacial, demographic reasons. more then that, given the current society we live in, it would avoid a significant number of lesser aveyras…such as hugging if all teenage girls went to the mikve. it will stop pressuring kids barely out of their teens into marriage and but at the same time avoid the willfull sinning of our youth. P.S there are already teenage girls who skinny dip/mikve so that they can hold hands with their boyfriends
My Last comment here didn’t make the recent comment board, so I’m not sure anyone saw it, or that it drew any attention…
Not to revive an old topic, especially when I havn’t actually read the topic at all. However, I did stumble across this newstory in JPost http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395620690&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
and it seems to speak to this topic, and it could be the start of a new discussion. (Maybe a new thread?) Anyway in case the link blows up during archiving, the text of the artical is as follows:
________________________________________________
Kosher sex without marriage
Matthew Wagner, THE JERUSALEM POST Mar. 16, 2006
According to an article by Professor Tzvi Zohar of Bar Ilan University, which has aroused fervent debate in religious Zionist circles, the answer is yes, but only if the relationship is based on mutual respect and the woman immerses herself in a mikve [ritual bath].
Zohar’s article, which appears in the latest edition of Akdamot, an academic journal on Jewish thought published by Beit Morasha, analyzes the opinions of leading halachic authorities from the Middle Ages, such as Nachmanides, to the modern era, such as Rabbi Ya’acov Emden, and shows that many permitted sexual relations without marriage.
In the arrangement, sanctioned by Jewish law according to these opinions, the woman becomes a pilegesh, or concubine. Neither the man nor the woman has any obligations or rights. Both must adhere to family purity laws in accordance with halacha.
According to halacha, a man is not allowed to come into physical contact with a woman after she has menstruated until she has immersed herself in a mikve. This prohibition is called nida.
Young religious men and women who are committed to the halacha need no longer struggle with their libido, argues Zohar. All those hormones can be channeled into a kosher communion that is free of marital obligations.
The article sparked major interest.
“Never since we first established Akdamot ten years ago has there been so much interest in an article,” said Avi Berholz, Akdamot’s chief editor. “The rabbis are angry at us for publishing an article which they feel undermines the Jewish family,” said Berholz. “But more liberal elements within religious Zionism thank us for presenting this opinion.”
Rabbi Ohad Tohar-Lev, who heads the Israeli program at Lindenbaum (Bruria), a yeshiva for young women aged 18 to 22, said that he fears the article will encourage more young religious people to have sexual intercourse before marriage.
“It legitimizes licentiousness,” said Tohar-Lev, who, as a head of an institution that prepares religious women for army service, is considered liberal.
“There are certain laws that are best kept secret. Zohar’s article will give some young people the justification they were looking for. Nobody wants to be a sinner.”
Y., 21, a student at Lindenbaum, said that she has single religious friends who already know about Zohar’s solution and have used it.
“The woman simply goes to a mikve before having sex and that’s it.”
But Y. said that many of her friends, while committed to orthodoxy, do not adhere to the rules of nida.
“I do not know whether they have intercourse. But I see them touching one another.”
I reckon that if we keep our sexual activities to ourselves everyone would be better off. Halacha is a guide…aint no lighting strikes these days. If an individual wishes to explore their sexuality its their business, the rabbi’s wont be watching. Besides, the sanctioning of these sorts of things keeps religion slightly seperate from the norm…. otherwise what would be the point?
Interesting idea to regulate premarital sex by having people formally declare their unions.
I have two words for this. What-Ever.
What’s the underlying goal there?
Are we trying to institute some kind of deterrent?
Are we assuming there is some inherent value of having the community know what people do? If yes, maybe we should all open our bank accounts to each other as well…
Is this about the children? Because if yes, let’s just take the stigma away from single motherdom and have a real community support system. Because every girl I know has a friend who’s had a secret abortion.
Ugh.
That’s just disgusting!
Oh wait, handfAsting, you say?
Hey how about that old Scottish custom of handfasting? It was kinda a trial marrage and it lasted only a year. After the year you could go your seperate ways or marry for real~~whatever! Oh yeah any children born in that year are legitimate.
jewish mother, whatever happened to Kelly?
Is Kelly still around? I live in South Florida and I think we might have a lot in common.
Refraining from pre-marital sex has nothing to do with what’s ‘natural’. The most natural thing is not necessarily the most holy thing in Judaism. THink of a circumcision. Whether or not something is ‘natural’ doesn’t make it better.
so people are screwing around. im not sure if i care but i find myslef strangly interisted in the topic. i live in crown heights where unbelievibly this shit accures rather openly with in small circles, and then a gust of gossip will blow from circle to circle untill we all fricken know. i would love to start my own CH sex blogg but im to fucken lazy
As for replying to the initial topic of premarital sex, my opinion, as a conservative Jewish male, who has experienced pre-marital casual sex, I feel that the traditions that the torah set out should not be altered. For one, there can be feelings of regret after a sexual encounter. Marriage should start with two people having never spent time feeling each other experience their first encounter of euphoria, the ultimate engaging experience. Furthermore, it would be both embarrassing and difficult for one partner to be experienced in sex and the other not. There is also the emotional difficulty of comparing partners. Although the typical orthodox student or adult is fully exposed to sexual content everyday, they must understand the importance of waiting until marriage for sex. The rules Hashem have set out and the traditions our ancestors set out, and the struggles we dealt with no matter how religious we were; having to deal with the Holocaust, Terrorist attacks in the homeland of all Jewish people and the individuals hardships each individual deals with to keep the faith of Judaism alive and Israel strong and united should not be tested or tempted to satisfy the unnecessary temptations of premarital sex. Trust me through experience sex with someone you feel little emotion for isn’t great anyways. If I offended anyone I apologize, but please keep in mind all Jews are champions no matter how they were brought up or how they live there lives.
It’s against torah you dorks. THAT’S Why it shouldn’t be done.
dina, do u want to date?
The majority of you people seem scared of sex and thats sad. You all live a life where your everydays acts of love are censored. Im glad i am not religious in any sort of way. You are all so pathetic
you’re pathetic as you sound as if you’re entirely ruled by your emotion and that’s a weakness. As Jewish people, we’re commanded to be holy. In the Torah, people can have sex, it encourages it. Our Cohen priests are married and have wives. It’s a commandment to be fruitful and multiply but to do so in the context of something that’s holy. If you take something that’s supposed to be holy, something that’s supposed to bring life into this world and you make it something that’s dirty, something with our Godly soul that we’re supposed to elevate and you don’t elevate it than that’s sad.
Shmuley? Who? Forget that.
The point is to clean up the animal aspect and make it human. Not easy! Everybody has a raped ancestress, way back. As way back as possible.
Here is the zinger: all is not well with your instincts. You have been bamboozled by an overdose of German psychology, and fallen of the Temple Mount head first, crash, ouch, too stunned to even know what hit you.
If you have no instincts, you have nothing.
I am too embarrassed to explain the need for delicacy. Nobody should ever be too afraid of being thought un-modern to be disgusted. A sense of YUCK is one’s most precious possession. It takes guts to hold onto it. If you have no guts, nothing.
I admire this Esther. She does not scare. Go girl. Does she eat an iron-rich breakfast cereal?
Playful fantasy within a mutually consensual context is one thing. (Even Shmuley says it’s okay : “If a husband and wife want to use handcuffs to light their fire, who cares?”)
Maybe it was the words “violence” (absent of the “playful” qualifier) and “choking the girl” that didn’t seem especially healthy or playful to me.
And as for “pish” posh, I think you’re looking for Chutzpah’s stories on the other thread.
No. Treif.
Oh pish posh. First of all, I had to comment because I did not want to see 666 comments – know what I mean? And second of all it is totally normal for consenting adults to incorporate playful violence into their lovemaking.
Believe me, Soferet, we’re all with you on that.
??”?
!!!
On a side note, do any of you think it is sick to engage in violence during sex, as in choking the girl whilst having intercourse?
Okay:
Bios
Jewlicious
When you go to the second link, our home page, you can enter any topic by clicking on its title. That will bring up both the topic and its comments.
You also have a search function where if you enter a word such as “Arafat” you can find all the posts and comments that contain that word.
We also have archives on the side. Click into any month and you will find our old posts and discussions, particularly the really good ones these guys used to have before I joined and mucked things up.
Do it, JM, just do it and let this godforsaken discussion reach its natural demise before Jewlicious does.
I got lost. When I got there I did not know where to go in. Post full link? What’s the bio? But I do not want to read the bio. I hate resumes outside of work.
JM: haven’t you read the bio? CK is the leader. Muffti just follows any fool idea he has.
JM, you may not leave the table just yet. We are moving into the living room for coffee and cake, and we’ll clean up the mess later.
You can find the living room here (that’s right, put your mouse on the link, and click). Just find a chair that feels comfy and feel free to participate in the conversation. Once somebody enters our home, we are reluctant to watch them leave, but that is doubly true for you.
Will do. Thank you all for your sparkling company. You are all wonderful.
ck can’t get any nooky because you insist on posting on this topic despite the fact that I told you that it hurts the server!!! And when you hurt the server, you hurt ck! But yes Jewish Mother… do try shakshuka and follow the instructions to the letter especially what day of the week to make it and when exactly to eat it.
You don’t know everything about me. I am Ashkenaz but I cook with ginger. I put fresh cilantro in everything. However, I never bother with fresh garlic because of its short shelf life, and I can’t see any difference between fresh ground and ready-ground black pepper. Only Hungarian paprika has any taste, although the American kind can give color, but I don’t own any. I love “Mrs. Dash”, scoff if you will. But I am extremely happy to learn about Shaksuka!! Should this noble recipe die with you??? I believe in you. Please believe in the future. Please believe in each other. You are so cranky. You are crying in your shushaka. Try to calm down and stop being scared. What man can do, and has done, you can do. GM, some leadership, please. YOU be the first to marry. You can have Esther. CK has not made a fast enough move, or they would be whispering in the shadows, ignoring us, and she is still posting. Leave poor G-d alone. You and He can catch up later.
Esther: Muffti thinks that was some funny shit.
Michael: Glad to hear Muffti left a good impression. Muffti is not a puker, so your floor was safe. Glad to hear that the shikseh is still shikseh-licious.
Michael: 15-20 big cans? Boy, you got it bad. But yeah, the more the merrier. Now go somewhere else!!!
OK Jewish Mother. Shaksuka is what makes Sephardic men so virile and Sephardic women so fierce and sexy. You can view my Mom’s recipe for it here. It’s really just a simple kinda salsa, but it’s simplicity belies its mystical prowess. Beware – this may cause an interest in Sephardic cuisine and then you’ll have to go off to the store and buy all kindsa new spices and stuff. I mean other than the salt, pepper and paprika you no doubt already have. Now for THE LOVE OF OUR SERVERS – stop posting here! 653 comments makes our database cry!
Shakshuka is something that will make you never want to even look at kugel again. Shakshuka is proof that there is a G-d who loves his people Israel.
Shakshuka, for want of a better term, is North African tomato stew with eggs. Moroccans say it’s Moroccan, Libyans say it’s Libyan. Whatever. It’s good. It takes a hell of a long time to make, but I still make it all the time, because it makes me glad to be alive.
Here’s ck’s mom Brakha’s recipe. I would recommend using between fifteen and twenty big cans of tomatoes instead of six and likewise increasing everything else, but I really like shakshuka too.
What amazing children. What is shakshouka? And you can both spell it and make it. What a cool woman. I was just kidding about the pies. Too fattening. Maybe once in a while. Sounded more romantic than meat loaf. Organic food was invented when I was already grown up, and I was strong as a horse from eating what came before it. I never ate Wonder bread, tuna melt or macaroni and cheese. My mom made the plain food described above, hip avant la lettre. Somebody marry Esther. She is SO cute. I don’t know half the words she uses.
Esther and I need company. Are there other women out there?
You know, JM’s right — contrary to what one might expect from his Jewlicious posts, Muffti actually is pretty civil-mannered. He bought all the drinks and unlike most people who visit New Orleans, he didn’t puke all over the floor. Also, he left his towel, and as well all know, nothing in the galaxy is more useful than a towel. So maybe there’s hope yet! It could be a Jewlicious contest: Who Wants to Marry the Muffti?
Muffti, I’m happy to report that Jesus is alive and well in the hearts of the kind of fat old white people who like to stand around on Bourbon Street with bullhorns yelling at gay people, and the shiksa who put on my tzitzit is still practicing mild blasphemy to the delight of friends and passers-by.
“Hi, and welcome to Jewlicious’s dating service, featuring Shadchanit Jewish Mother in her valiant attempt to see us all married and taken care of, making non-organic pies for our beloveds.
To date Muffti, press 1 and at the beep) declare in third person that there is no God. To date CK, press 2 and (at the beep) yell “Sephardim rule!” and then, using the keypad, key in your recipe for shakshouka. To date TM, press 3, invent flux capacitor (“which is what makes time travel possible”), get in time machine, and travel back to undetermined year in which he was actually single, then dress as cheer-leader and wait on his doorstep.”
I just meant people should put shoulder to wheel, and not be too lefty-pure to do what is necessary to get the fridge filled. And NOT from Whole Foods. No designer food. Fresh plain food. Kosher meat, potatoes, salads, home made soup, high fiber bread, eggs, rice, beans, barley, parsley, carrots, apples, bananas. Kedem grape juice. From the A&P or Gristedes. Take your lunch to work. TM, don’t worry. When people have a sufficient reason to get practical, they get practical. These are grown-ups. They, he, will rise to the occasion. A civil-mannered, reliable man with a good memory cannot be stopped in America. GM may do law. And, education has other levels than university, and the clientele is smarter the lower in age you go.
Jewish women are invited to consider GM as worth feeding. Seems to have some grit. So what if he talks in the third person? Probably wouldn’t do that at home. Maritally serious responses only. Must have thoughtful eyes, a kind manner, and faith in something, especially dinner. Ahoy? I promise not to grill you.
Thanks JM. Muffti appreciates you more than you know. And thanks Michael for remembering a Muffti-Michael moment 🙂 Howr the jesus people these days? And how that girl who wore your tzizit that night?
Wait, wasn’t Jewish Mother just talking about how important being wealthy is in getting a nice girl? Like, just a few posts ago?
I think Muffti really needs someone who can fry him up some good gator. Forget the pie.
People get married all the time for love and all the other right reasons. But life can be damned hard, even with love, when money isn’t readily available. I’m just joking about Muffti, I hope he gets to be an academic and make a (poor) living that way, but I do think money plays a role. Especially if you ever want to shop at Whole Foods.
OY! Forget that. Money is never, ever an issue. Did he get that PhD without paying tuition? If not, I guess he knows his way around a dollar bill. This is the richest country in the world. If having money got one married, everybody would be married. No, it’s the pie. We need some pie here. Or lentil soup. I am willing to divulge my recipes to the right person.
Uh, JM, not to put a kibosh on the matchmaking, but shouldn’t you focus first on GM’s career choice? You think it’ll be easy for him to support a spouse with Philosphy?
Very well-read Jewish women who do not mind a man who talks in the third person are alerted to the existence of GM. His favorite authors are not known. Ahoy? Serious responses only. Must be able to bake a cherry pie. State favorite authors and recipes.
Just so they are happy. You will get somebody else.
Awww, thanks a lot JM. CK beat Muffti to the draw and then Muffti didn’t want to be redundant. But Muffti is glad to know that your match making judgements are grounded in solid evidence.
In any case, Muffti is afraid he can’t accept a marriage proposal that is extended to CK as well; the rift in our friendship would be too great. And, frankly, he’s offended to be grouped with el Diablo himself 🙂
Esther, ha ha, asking two men to marry you at once is a mere smoke screen. I know it’s CK for you, because you and he were the ones to immediately ask me to continue to post here. Given context that is a truly huge thing to have in common. GM will have to find someone else.
Ouchies! Every word is true, BUT: the alternative is worse – you are conveniently overlooking that. Life cannot be sanitized. What you are afraid of has happened already. Go out and play. It’s a beautiful day. I will not be mad if you get your pinafore dirty. You’re a kid. You’re supposed to skin your knees. Getting cross and stamping foot will not make mystery go away, it’s here to stay. There has to be SOMEBODY with more taste than to prefer stag parties to you. Hmph.
Romantic fools fall harder when elevating themselves or prospective lovers to pedestals, and mystery is unparalleled in its capacity to torture the trusting and the hopeful. Admiration can turn to cloying in an unreciprocated instant and being beautiful isn’t something we ourselves can judge…
Shall I go on? The server limits demand that I not, I think…
Young is when people see magic in the world. Then they get practical and sensible and have lived in co-ed dorms and cannot be surprpised, mystified, or charmed any more. You know too much. Try to forget what you “know”. Be amazed by someone. Admire someone. Put someone on a pedestal. All of you, men and women. Trust this: you don’t know what you think you know. The mystery is still there, because it is eternal. Accept mystery, don’t view it as something to be cracked, like a problem at work. You guys are all too professional, both genders. Can’t you be romantic fools? Who made you into worker bees? If you decide to be young, you will be young. It would be nice if you were really young, but if you are not exactly, fake it, and think young. If you know how to play, it helps. Not sports, heaven forbid! Too serious. Young play, like children. Goofiness!!! It’s a beautiful day. Go outside. Have some good clean fun that does not cost anything. You know, pretend it’s Shabbat.
Esther: Muffti and I will gladly take care of the stag party, uh I mean the pre-wedding seudah and shiur night. Yeah. That’s it. The pre-wedding seudah and shiur night where we will be discussing the kallah’s fabulous middos.
The problems are mostly that if you don’t get married young, it seems like your choices are limited, is what we are hearing. It may have to do w/ more women population over men, and other factors that we cannot control. That men look for a younger woman, instead of older.
I am happy to stay. Esther, are you beautiful? Can you bake a cherry pie? You are witty and smart, for sure. I bet you would make fine Jewish Mother.
We all need our Jewish Mother.
She’s convinced me, BTW. I’m setting a wedding date and location and will just hope a groom shows up. Any takers? CK? GM?
Uh… just don’t leave us Jewish Mother!
Thanks CK. I see a piece in Tuesday, May 3rd NY Times about the impact of eating dinner together as a family…. It has been SO nice talking to everybody here.
No one said you were OT Jewish Mother. Just that the comments here are getting unmanageable. Please, feel free to go forth and comment on our other posts – like the one about never trusting boys. I can’t speak for anyone else but it seems your comments are valued – spreadit around a little! 🙂
My long-winded family history is not OT. This thread is about dreadful problems generated by the non-marrying everybody is doing, and the people in my family I describe managed to marry, so I present them as examples. “PRE-marital”? But it’s NON-marital. Instead of founding Jewish monasteries or getting halacha to bend around our seemingly inevitable non-marriedness, why accept this? We seem so resigned and passive. This is a fight to the death. I date from the days before all this. I am telling you it wasn’t always like this, and does not have to be like this. I have personally lived this whole story, inch by inch. I am twice your age. This is your war, I guess. Your Iraq. It is just as serious and just as deadly. I bitterly regret what my generation did to yours. We were told we were just expanding a little what our mothers and aunts had achieved before us, completing it. We were told the family would survive, just a little more complicated, varied and interesting. Is that what you see when you look around? I cited my family because they seemed to have a good formula. But they were not religious. I am religious. I think that is an improvement over their lives. To you I say, Live how you you want, but marry. Even a few times, to get it right. After that, if you are interested, go to shul. Say a bracha, it’s a good thing to do, sure. But above all, marry. “Go forth and multiply” comes long, long before the Ten Commandments. Midrash says that is aimed squarely at men. Who would not do much of that if not commanded, it is implied. You find me tiresome? You have got to start thinking. Between your abs, your colesterol, your freedom and your lattes you have been distracted from what matters. The price is heavier than you can imagine and there is not a ton of time.
I agree. It’s actually starting to strain the server and the database every time it’s accessed! 628. Sheesh. That’s worst than LGF!
Yeesh, this is getting ridiculous. *sigh*.
Shtremiel, Muffti attends shul about as irregularly as one can. Though he did get roped in to going with his dad on passover while visiting home for seders.
TM, you said:
It should be clear, TM. You report the will of the post to the rest of us.
Fortunately, though the post preceded us all, it doesn’t have to live past us all. Let us all agree to abandon this post forever and let it die a quiet death.
My father and uncles were strong as bulls. They never went to gyms, ate what they wanted and had shoulders like piano movers. The skinny ones accepted being skinny. They did NOT drink or smoke, however. They worked hard and stayed with one wife. Had a couple of kids. Dressed attractively without being fashion conscious, or at least it didn’t show, which means they were doing it right. Dressed with dignity (no spandex or knit fabrics) without ever looking stuffy. They were faithful to their wives and did not look unhappy. They did not use pornography. They enjoyed their kids, mostly. They took care of business without ever worshiping money or being dishonest or weasly. They broke no laws. They served honorably in the military (WWII and Korea). They had no more chromosomes than anybody else and what they did anybody can do, too. They lived very long lives and died at home, no nursing homes. They had fiercely intelligent and independent-minded wives, whom they considered to be interesting people to the end of their 50-year marriages. These women had their own lives and careers but also took care of their husbands and families, putting that first. They were grandes dames in their homes, hostesses, and maitresses de maison extraordinaires. These women were in trim shape and good -looking to the end of their days, without fussing about it or dieting or complaining or taking pills or wearing girdles or getting their hair processed. They were practical and frugal about money, but never worshiped it or designer labels. They had come through the Great Depression and could not be fooled by nonsense like that. They had no attitude. They were not trying to be better than anybody or impress anybody. These people were not perfect but they got off the dime. Above all they viewed spouse and children as the core of life. But they still had plenty to say, think and do that was not tied to spouse or children. They went places and read books between diaper changes. They fitted it in. But with them, in a crunch, family came first, both the women and the men. THEY WERE JEWS.
“who is very keen on promoting physical fitness and he’s quite categorical that one cannot serve G-d to the best of one’s potential if one is out of shape physically”
Exactly. It ain’t too impressive when you ask your aging Cantor and Rabbi to spot you before Hagbah.
Now if you’re a male Satmar Chassid, with 14 kids, your mid-section is doing just fine, thank you very much.
Apparently we are still healing from the “Blame Canada” debacle inflicted by the Parker-Stone South Park musical feature. A shame. Let us ask ourselves what Brian Boitano would do to resolve such a rift…
Shtreimel, I very much agree with your post # 591.
In fact there is a Sephardic rabbi in Israel (I can’t remember his name) who is very keen on promoting physical fitness and he’s quite categorical that one cannot serve G-d to the best of one’s potential if one is out of shape physically, and he quotes the Torah, and a whole bunch of sages including Rambam on his website saying how important it is to be physically fit.
CK…did Simon ever tell you about “Hole in the Sheet”? And the riot it caused at Vanier? Wow, I knew Moroccan’s can get hot under the collar, but damn…I’d hate to be a Hamas operative in CSL walking past Maimonides at 4 PM as school is letting out.
Still, glad their on my team.
“we’re smarter, faster, stronger and have God on our side!”
“But as to learning from Canadians? About LIFE?”
Jsirpicoo,
Based on your latest posts, if I were American, I’d wish I weren’t.
I love it when Americans start off with that braggadocious attitude. Makes taking them down and snacking on them for breakfast that much more enjoyable. And then afterwards we run away with their wimmins.
Just ask those 4 clowns at Club Getaway who thought they could beat me and my buddy Michou in bball. True, we are both Moroccan Jews, but we are also Morccan CANADIAN Jews and we made those stupid boys our little basketball bitches.
And then we ran off with their wimmins. Best to keep nationalism off the blog jsirpicco.
oh. the shouting…fine. maybe. Jews are loud!
But as to learning from Canadians? About LIFE? Uhmmm….come on back me up here Gringos!
yeah, but little wiry Americans can whup any big Canadians any time…we’re smarter, faster, stronger and have God on our side!
Jsirpicco,
That’s better. You’re not yelling anymore. When you do this:
“OH MY GOD, SHTEIMEL IS CANADIAN ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE??????”
you’re yelling.
“Plus I feel more and more I need to counter balance you on this blog for the 5 other people reading!”
Yes, I’m sure I’ve influenced many with my posts. I have no doubt that:
GM now attends shul on a regular basis
CK davens in a Conservative shul
TM davens in an Sephardi shul
Esther has given up on men completely
And Jewish Mother has joined a gym
Maybe you’ll learn a thing or two from this “oh so superior” Canadian, eh?
5 people? Uh, not according to the traffic logs I’ve seen. We get a tad more traffic than that, my man. And be careful about the Canuck comments cuz ck is Canadian and he’s a big tough guy.
sorry shtreimel, won’t do it. It’s cute and all doing the shhhh thing, oh so superior and all that. But American Democracy WILL NOT be silenced. Plus I feel more and more I need to counter balance you on this blog for the 5 other people reading!
Jsirpicco – wigged out on Hashem, yeah, baby!
Jsirpicco,
Shhhh.
OH MY GOD, SHTEIMEL IS CANADIAN ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE??????
Actually, I’ll give you the “bible thumping sunday preacher on meth…” Jsirpicco is pleased with that bit of wit.
But all this garbage from a “canadian?” American Jews…must we stand for this as well????
In some ways, we remain on topic.
JM, you have the wrong impression. I don’t have time to “work out” and I’m not interested in a real six pack because I don’t have enough vanity to bother. I just meant losing the love handles with some push ups, sit ups and the occasional run. Shtreimel has now informed me I need to change my diet. Ugh.
I agree with ck about the frumpy vs. non-frumpy. A person who continues to take care of themselves is also respecting others around them, such as, for example, their spouse/partner.
Third…vibrators? First we had that Aish guy with his “naked chickies” and now this?
First, you’re wrong. Second, since when are there comment topic police?
I think that the topic here was about this girl who keeps herself virginal because of Shomeret Negiah when she is now in her mid 30’s. She was having difficulties w/ this and started to use vibrators and stuff. Please stick to the topic or end this stoney thread.
“And stress can be addressed by thinking and prayer”
Yes, but poorly. My own experience with stress, and that of my clients, is that exercise, talking it out (with a human being…a friend, shrink and/or Rav) and dealing with your mini-fears, everyday, is your best chance to avoid bigger problems.
“I meant, what is so terrible about not being toned and fashionable in the Calvin Klein sense”
Nothing, we agree.
JM, IMHO what you lack is moderation. And I’d be able to absorb some of your advice with less reaction if:
a) You didn’t reinforce unhealthy (IMHO) Jewish stereotypes i.e. focus on wealth
b) You awknowledged the benefits/improvements of SOME of the gender differences in 2005
Most of the white-haired Orthodox men I know don’t tend to live any longer than their non-Orthodox, or even non-Jewish, counterparts. Maybe it’s all the latkes and chicken grease.
I wasn’t being materialistic, I just meant, concentrate on what you are doing and achieving in life, not your physique. And stress can be addressed by thinking and prayer. You have conveniently ignored my white-haired Orthodox men, who reach a great age, though stuffed with latkes and chicken grease. It is true that they do not smoke. If you see one with stained clothes, maybe it is a money thing. Dry cleaning is expensive and they put their money into their children.
ck, Muffti told me when he was here that the men at your shul are in fact so virile that they get into synagogue-wide brawls for no apparent reason.
And hey, speaking as an Ashkenazi, I am all for the total and utter abandonment of latkes, chicken grease, kugel, gefilte fish and all that other crap. I mean, if the food is going to be greasy and fatty and all of that bad stuff, can it at least taste good? Am I asking too much here? And please, Jewish Mother, don’t lecture me on how if I don’t eat kugel I’ll never get married because I hate my own Jewishness.
“Toned and fashionable” in the Calvin Klein sense is easy. It doesn’t require the gym, it requires the needle and the spoon. Which really doesn’t cost much more than a health club membership, come to think of it.
I meant, what is so terrible about not being toned and fashionable in the Calvin Klein sense, spit on the ground. That is what I meant. Of course people should take care of themselves.
BTW…is there a Jewish blog around…any Jewish blog, that has hit 600+ posts. Just wondering?
“It’s just the wrong focus.”
Oh but this:
“…and rich instead!!!”
is the right focus. Wow.
Can you think of a larger problem in our community that the myopic focus on money, career and power? I can’t.
You obviously don’t know my Dad, Brakha’s husband. We have a shul FULL of virile Sephardic men …. Must be the cuisine with its emphasis on fresh food and exotic spices. Keeps us lookin young!
Just sayin.
“man do you cause problems…”
For whom jsirpicco? For yourself? Because I’m poking wholes in some of your arguements? You come off sounding like a Bible Belt Sunday preacher on Meth and it wigs me out. No biggie.
“What’s so terrible about being frumpy?”
I lived in Montreal my whole life, and have been in Vancouver for 5 years. And I thank God that Westcoast living has influenced me to get my Eastcoast, lazy ass to the gym, play hockey and stay away from some of that Ashkenaz heart clogging crap. Oh, and very few Westcoast people smoke. One more thing, they live longer as well.
JM, we agree. Gym worshippers are a weird bunch. But it takes more than a walk around the block to counter our current lifestyles. Nothing beats stress (and all other emotional ills) better than sweat producing, heart racing, exercise.
Six packs….are a waste of time.
Brace yourself for some very bad news. Men do not age well, in the terms you are thinking in. None of them. Unless they spend way too much time and energy on keeping all the bumps in the right places, and even then it’s essentially a losing battle. A wiry older guy is nice but no one will ever confuse him with a young guy. Nature is much kinder to women. So do your best in a reasonable way and don’t expect much. Be intelligent and rich instead!!! A woman who loves you likes what she sees, because she sees you through the lens of her feelings about your ability to make her happy. There is a REASON men’s clothing is so covered-up. The business suit, which conceals all muscles, is the garment of brains and power. Not muscle power. Social power. An older guy can be gorgeous, but it’s not because he went to the gym. It’s because he was good looking in the first place. Yes, be active and vigorous, but a serious committment to physique development is a crashing waste of time IMHO. It’s just the wrong focus.
Except see, Jewish Mother – Brakha and Dina are objectively babes too. And Jewish Mother, you know that there are plenty of Frum and not frum people who have just plain given up. They have stains on their clothing and their spirit is crushed. Do not ever advocate frumpiness. Fat is not neccessarily frumpy. Interesting conversation is not frumpy.
Eating latkes and chicken grease, with what we know about cholesterol, and with healthier alternatives readily available, IS frumpy.
I need a six pack because I don’t like the rotundity.
You betcha. Your Dina and Brakha are EXACTLY what I advocate. THEY don’t worry about their six packs or having thin thighs. Shtreimel was making a dig at the overweight Orthodox men and women who wear a lot of white shirts and navy or black suits and thick stockings. They are clean and neat, but, decidedly out of shape, and not very fashion-concerned. They try to look nice, in their own terms, and are not at all uncaring about their appearance. It is much more important what a man has to say than whether his stomach is flat. Right, Esther? Shtreimel, that sorts pretty well with your ideas about what a WOMAN should be like. You know, you want a wife who has something interesting to say. Since you are smart, why do you need a six pack? Ordinary prudence is enough to maintain your arteries in good working order. There are a lot of Orthodox men with long white beards, who have gotten to a great age while stuffed with latkes and chicken grease. I wonder if people are afraid of the wrong things.
OK Jewish Mother. I’ve resisted tangling with you. Till now.
What’s so terrible about being frumpy? Frumpiness implies that you no longer care what you look like, you’ve let yourself slide. And I am not talking about clothing and fashion either. Frumpiness is first and foremost an attitude of dejection and surrender and it is so unnattractive!
Look at the post Passover post about our Mimouna celebrations. Look at my Mom and my aunt. No need for me to mention ages, but Brakha is a grandmother and Dina is getting there and they are both ubber babes. Not because of the clothes they wear, or because how much time they spend at the gym – but because they have massive hearts and a fierce attitude about living life.
Dina and Brakha are the anti-frumpy. Emulate them, it will do you good.
My position is that it is not bad to be frumpy. There’s defiance! What’s so terrible about being frumpy?
CK,
See – you’re a mench! You know jsirpicco is actually very fragile underneath and so you’re gentle with me!
Yeah, I dig sephardim…I used to live among them in Eretz Yisroel and they were loving and welcoming to the “americanim” as they called me and my wife and kiddies at the time…yes, all MO tirades do not apply to sephardim cuz, their laziness is not a product of weird upbringings or bad teachers or “issues” (sniff, tears, etc.)…they just are TOTALLY JEWISH and have emuna seeping from their veins and into the street, yes!
Course, at the same time, they could shtarken up, but I hold that an Ashkenazi should NEVER lecture to a sephardi when it comes to emuna…period…it’s like Tball vs. The Show….
Okay, but meanwhile…as for my weirded out Ashkenazi Brothers….man do you cause problems…such major potential wasted on trying to be smarter than God…eh, shtreimele?
See, I’m now out to get you…I just dig the back and forth.
Jsirpicco is invincible!
“Of course people should be active in general and do stretches but the fitness movement is seriously, seriously dumb IMHO.”
WRONG!!!
I have clients who tried anti-depressant medication, talking therapy, etc. The only solution to our sedentary life style is to do A BARE MIN. of 30-40 min of vigorous exercise 3 x’s a week. Ideally, you’re doing a combo of weight training and cardio. Is it any wonder so many frum people are frumpy?
Talmud/prayer don’t do much for the arteries and/or stress levels. And shabbos’ walks don’t cut it either. Sorry folks.
Jewish Mother,
You assume that women n 2005 don’t ask those questions…they do, and mine did. I have no doubt there are Orthodox women that are completely fulfilled staying at home with their children. Y’ashear koach. I was never interested in that sort of women. My lady entertained the idea of medicine WAY before I ever entered the picture. And judging by many of the MO women I meet, the trend is towards career and family.
“Before the women’s movement, which is only thirty years ago, he would have been asked “what were his intentions†concerning his girlfriend. Not nicely, either.”
At times looking backwards is healthy. Other times, not so much. We could feel an entire Blog with the pros/cons of:
30 years ago…
50 years ago…
2500 years ago…
Of course people should be active in general and do stretches but the fitness movement is seriously, seriously dumb IMHO.
jsirpicco: You may have some serious, serious issues, people may take umbrage with most or all of what you write, but man, you routinely crack me up (in a good way). Don’t ever stop being you.
OR become Sephardic. We seem to not have so many issues with these whole MO/FFB/BT etc. designations. With us you’re Jewish, or not so Jewish. End of story. You wanna get a Lexus and an Art Scroll whatever? Go ahead. We’d care and stuff, but ya know, we’re too busy eating yummy food. We poke fun at ashkenazim but the joy my parents had feeding hordes of them after Passover at our mimouna party demonstrates clearly that we love all our peeps. My parents are inspiring that way.
Esther, I had one once, I promise you. It is, however, kinda missing in action right now and I’ve just started doing a bunch of push-ups and crunches to lose a little of that nice ring I’m developing. Shtreimel just made me think it’s all futile.
JM, that’s what my father in law asked me. I thought it was kind of an old-fashioned question to ask me as I mumbled some nonsensical non-answer about my intentions.
Little did he or I know…
Does Shtreimel owe his freedom to the women’s movement?? Has he ever said thank you?? Before the women’s movement, which is only thirty years ago, he would have been asked “what were his intentions” concerning his girlfriend. Not nicely, either. (Not being personal to any particular individual Shtreimel, just current scene. Present company excepted of course.) Do you know how they keep the price of diamonds high? By restricting access to them, and not flooding the market. When talking to a young woman, and more, is made an artificially scarce commodity, the price goes up. You know, the famous cow-bicycle theory. Or was it fish-bicycle. Cow-milk. I am getting old. I can’t tell a cow from a fish or a bicycle.
“a six-pack again”
Most people I know never had one to begin with.
Shtreimel, you just broke my heart, man. What are you saying, that I can’t get a six pack again unless I change my diet?
Jsirpicco…
Shhhhhh.
Esther,
The only rounds I have is on my hips. Too many iced mochas. Damn.
BTW, all that “do more crunches” gunk they try to sell ya…bogus. It’s all in the diet baby.
This Esther is so smart. Great imagery. Chapeau, indeed. Tee hee. How cuddly.(Esther you may know the guy already. Take inventory.) Let’s get spring hats! Chapeaux!
“impregnate her…a mini-Shtreimel following Mom on her rounds”
Of course, could be a mini-Mom following Shtreimel on his rounds…I guess we’d have to wait and see.
Although I am enjoying the funny little image of a tiny furry Chassidishe chapeau following a doctor around a hospital…tee hee…
Shtreimel,
are you this sharp to your girlfriend, as well? Cuz, if so, you’re in for rocky marriage (AND NOW SHTREIMEL will tell me how great his relationship is, how he KNOWS how to communicate better than anyone in the world, how anyone who dares be ‘okay’ with their Orthodox is simple minded blah blah blah) Come Sthreime Baby Say IT!)
Listen, I still feel sorry for all you MO rejects out there, who were crushed by your own school system or yetzer horah’s or both, forever caught in that nebulous land between the secular world and the frum…wondering wondering wondering how how how how can I GET OUT OF ALL THESE MITZVOS ALREADY AND STILL SLEEP AT NIGHT!!!!
Man, I’d rather be a dopey clown (and here it comes – the comment “yes, Jsirpicco, you ARE a dopey clown) than a person who can’t seem to work it out with Hashem all the time.
Professional achievements are nice, yes. But ultimately, so what?
Not that a person should be an unemployed loser (see my previous CORRECT assessment of what guys need to do to get married)….but after a while, no one’s impressed with the career, except of course Jewish Mommy and other MO people trying to figure out, Are We Happy Yet? Did we schmooze enough in shul???? Did we eat enough? Travel to stupid places where there are minyanim enough? Did we get the big house and the lexus and the flat screen and the artscroll daf yomi shiur?
I dunno. I’m just a dumb guy who’s into sincerity…and I can tell you…people with “issues…” well…gosh can’t you work them out, already?????
Jsirpicco – awaiting the incoming shrapnel!
yeah where’s that Aish dope now that we need him, Streimel?
“Shtreimel’s zen-like existence”
I’m floating 2 feet off the floor as I type this.
shtreimel: who wants to know?
i love the way you say “still.” Last time we saw each other was a zillion years ago! I’ve been in and out of a few relationships since then 😉
Uh, ck, being a resident and a first time mom might kill the mom and I can assure you that it will cause some harm to
Ravenous Bear’sShtreimel’s zen-like existence.CK,
You still single?
Aw c’mon shtreimel! Impregnate her! You can do it! How cute would it be to have a little mini shtreimel following Mom around on her rounds?
“But this also means your partner has to wait, and she does have some sort of built in deadline that precedes yours by a couple of decades. Are we to understand she’s replaceable?”
TM,
You make it sound like she’s a fragile flower and I’m a ravenous bear. She’s a bright girl. If her values/life plans are being held back by yours truly, she’s free to walk, no?
My partner is also a 1st year resident. And I’m about to be a Torontonian without a job or home. And we’re still dating. Forget biological clocks, common sense dictates to take this “one step at at a time”.
“Plus – shtreimel. how come you go balistic on jewish mom (and anyone else, that is) who dares offer an opinion that MAY ACTUALLY LEAD TO A WAY OUT OF YOUR MISERY?????”
Jsirpicco,
You’re hilarious. The fact that I don’t walk around like a Romper Room clown, extolling the virtues of Orthodoxy, means that I’m unhappy. Can you be any more parochial?
I just finished recording music for a major NFB doc film. And had the time of my life. I’m in the process of opening up a audio/design facility with a good friend. Working on another doc film with another good friend. Designing a few web pages. Playing ice hockey with a wicked bunch of guys. Spending shabbat with some very close friends. And moving to be closer to my girlfriend and family. All is very good.
BTW jsirpicco, save your sorrow for yourself. I’m doing quite well. But you may want to something about that annoying factor. You sound very much like Joe Schmo on Jewschool.
I’m grouchy?!
GRRRRRR!!! HOW DARE YOU?!
You guys are whacked, you know that? Listen, Jsirpicco, BH, has 5 kids, and you know what? I DON”T miss my single days not one little bit, for all the noise and NO NAPS forever…
As to Shtreimel…I feel sorry for you in a certain way (don’t go balistic, just listen)…sounds like you grew up on the inside, and yes, “seeing too much truth” can be fatal to your yiddishkeit….but you know what? There’s a truth beyond your complaints…and that’s where the true joy resides….you may call it warm fuzzy, but I calls it choosing the life you want to lead…
Of course there’s no panacea…plenty of grouchy frummies and grouchy secularies….same for you and you and you GM Esther and Tm…
Plus – shtreimel. how come you go balistic on jewish mom (and anyone else, that is) who dares offer an opinion that MAY ACTUALLY LEAD TO A WAY OUT OF YOUR MISERY?????
So Shtreimel, if I hear ya, since you don’t have the same biological clock ticking away, you are free to wait until you’re comfortable not waiting. But this also means your partner has to wait, and she does have some sort of built in deadline that precedes yours by a couple of decades. Are we to understand she’s replaceable?
I’m not trying to be a trouble maker here, but that is the essence of what you’ve proposed.
Muffti, if this Post preceded us all, and if we have evidence of its existence, what is my place in the universe?
Muffti believes that this post preceded us all. And unlike God, there is actually some evidence for its existence!
“Any money in that? ”
None. Nothing. Zip.
But the “making” part is fun. Or so I’m told 😉
Boy, this post is immortal. Muffti may not believe in God, but he’s gotta believe in the primacy of this post. Even though TM started it.
“the children-making business”
Any money in that?
And as to “I miss those days when…” don’t we all have those moments? Sigh.
Ha Michael….all of my guy friends, more or less, were dragged into the children making business. It’s not like they didn’t want children, and it’s not like they don’t adore their kids…but behind their wives backs they’ll say:
“Dear God I miss those days when….”
So lets just say that I’m currently enjoying my freedom to read, compose music, play ice hockey, design web pages, go for walks, bike, go to the gym, sip on iced coffees and waste my time on blogs while I still have the chance.
You appreicate your current childless status? But…but…children are the entire reason for your existence! ARE YOU SURE IT WILL BE FINE WITH YOU TO DIE CHILDLESS?!
“Of course all that free time is boooooring without children. Children will fill it for you. Much, much better than watching goldfish or television. As for Fridays and holidays, yes, that is tough. But, you have working Orthodox friends, so they have solved this problem somehow. ”
#1 comment from two frum couples this past weekend:
“God I miss those long boring shabbos’ when I was single”
Comment made as their children were throwing their toys against a wall, and I left to go for a walk and read a book. There wasn’t one point during that lunch when I thought: “Man, I can’t wait till my shabbos’ are filled with diaper changing and child rearing. I’m not saying it’s not meaningful, I’m just stating that I truly appreciate my current status i.e. no children.
“Shtreimel has somebody? So why so grouchy?????”
I don’t care for warm, fuzzy syrup. I want honesty. And at times, Jewish Mother is:
a) Not honest
b) Unaware that polarity of her advice/tone runs counter to what I feel/observe as being PART OF the observant Jewish community. I just have the balls to say it (most of my observant friends just speak about such things with hushed whispers).
“What’s with all the issues, dude. I agree: Shtreimel: you need a wife who will make you laugh and enjoy life…”
Yeah, I’m sure the high divorce rate (and, as a result, people feeling very weary about getting married) is due to too much laughing and life enjoying. Too much of a good thing is painful. And personally, I’m just not up for all that laughing.
Regarding my issues…
I’m looking for honesty…that’s it. All of my points about Orthodoxy are real, true and were expressed by many of my Ortho friends during walks this past Shabbos. I expressed them to counter Jewish Mother’s pseduo-militant marriage/life advice. When we promote Orthodoxy as an anti-depressant we’re selling a lie. When we equate women with kitchens, men with footballs, etc., we’re selling a lie. One of the biggest, most successful sports in Vancouver is CO-ED ultimate frisbee. Last time I checked, the players weren’t sitting on the sidelines lamenting the fact that the girls weren’t in the kitchen, and that the boys weren’t being served a hot meal.
Shtreimel has somebody? So why so grouchy?????
TM, no tarnishing is intended. Everybody should try for what they want at any age. I am not writing people off and they should not write themselves off. But I don’t see any point in keeping wraps on what you yourself say, that a decline begins at 35. Of course that is an average. Medicine runs on averages. The specific person is another matter but the averages are real, too. I was addressing the women who are 27 and who should do some serious thinking. ABOUT PRESSURE: EXERT SOME YOURSELF. Pressure does not always have to be: Oy, they are pressuring me. It can be, Oy, am I ever pressuring THEM. Get your hair, your nails and your politics done, and kick some a.
Now boys, don’t fight. Shtreimel Has Somebody. This will go the right way but he should get on the stick naturally.
re: Shtreimel’s important warning to all users of Orthodox Judaism as in Warning: Orthodoxy Will Make You Basically Miserable!
Gosh…so don’t do Hashem any favors, dude. Who wants long, shabbos afternoons when they can be watching bad tv, blogging stupid blogs and running errands all day long, yeah, baby! That’s WAY better than relaxing and taking time to smell the roses…
What’s with all the issues, dude. I agree: Shtreimel: you need a wife who will make you laugh and enjoy life…
Michael, that scene you described? That’s what I do every night. I run up and down West End Avenue screaming that in two languages. Problem is? No quality control with that kind of mass marketing. And esp. when selecting a baby daddy, quality’s very important.
Let’s be clear: I’m not against Jsirpicco or JM, either! I’m just saying that it’s not always within our control to have babies during the optimum time, and pressure from the observant community doesn’t help. A girl with a birthday coming up doesn’t need a reminder, trust me.
Shtreimel, JM has a point. Perhaps you should produce offspring. 😉
But I just want everybody to be happy! Of course all that free time is boooooring without children. Children will fill it for you. Much, much better than watching goldfish or television. As for Fridays and holidays, yes, that is tough. But, you have working Orthodox friends, so they have solved this problem somehow.
JM, 35 is not 40 and 40 isn’t 44, the age at which a friend of ours had her baby through fertility treatments (on only her second try, which meant the procedure cost a fraction of $40k). The idea is that at 35, a woman begins a decline, but first of all, that is an average, and second, it does take a little while before the woman has problems. The vast majority of women over 35 do not require fertility treatments so it is very unfair to tarnish them in this way.
I don’t mean that women should wait, because I agree that it is easier to rear children when you’re younger, but there’s a lot to be said for the wisdom a 35 year old might have that a 25 year old may not. Life is a good teacher that way. I say this because I believe you are doing a disservice to the unmarried women who are younger than 40 – 42 and still desire to have a family. Yes, that biological clock is ticking, but the odds are still in their favor.
“So there, Shtreimele, and Esther and Grand Mufti (traitor) now it’s 3 against to. jsirpicco and jewish mother will whup your ass!”
With Esther and GM on my team…I like the odds.
“…ARE YOU SURE IT WILL BE FINE WITH YOU TO DIE CHILDLESS”
Jewish Mother, you’re moving the from the sane/rational Jewish Mother we all lacked, to the archetype Jewish Mother represented in Woody Allen’s short “Oedipus Wrecks”.
Here’s my warning for anyone considering a move to become more religious:
1) Loooooooooooooooooooong boring shabbat afternoons (even my frum friends stare at their watches going: “When will this end”.
2) Befriending other frum friends and slowly losing contact with the outside world. Conversation turns to arguing some seemingly meaningless point of Halacha, something about donkeys, and how, or if, it applies to your Honda Civic.
3) Loooooooooooooooooooong boring Yom Tov’s and Shabbat’s, one after the other.
4) Having Ortho folks look at you like your a goose-stepping nazi if you ever doubt the divinity of the Oral Law and/or questing revelation on Sinai.
5) Ah yes, your first Aish/Discovery/Chabad seminar. They say they don’t have any agenda. They say that you’re a Jew no matter what. That’s what they say. You’ve been warned.
6) Trying to explain, in a job interview, why you can’t work on Friday’s during the late-Fall and early winter, and why you need another 10-12 days off throughout the year. BTW, if you get the job…remember those yummy 2 week vacations….you can kiss those goodbye.
Need I continue?
Jsirpicco LIKES jewish mother! Mama, you rock. So there, Shtreimele, and Esther and Grand Mufti (traitor) now it’s 3 against to. jsirpicco and jewish mother will whup your ass!
Ummm, of course the purpose of marriage is just to have two incomes, play chess, talk about issues and vote democratic for the rest of your life while you sip bottled water and ‘work out’…kids? Feh!
Cue scene: Esther running at night through the streets of Manhattan, screaming, “I NEED A BABY DADDY!” Cut to: Jewish Mother cackling madly as lightning flashes dramatically.
You know, the image of somebody screaming in the face of a motivated career woman fresh out of law school “ARE YOU SURE IT WILL BE FINE WITH YOU TO DIE CHILDLESS??!!!” is one of the funniest things I’ve thought of lately. At least, as far as hysteria is funny.
You could find him tonight.
Glad to know I have thirteen months to find my baby’s daddy or $40K, whichever comes first.
Nobody DARES to mention: a woman older than 35 is a very different creature reproductively than one younger than 35. She looks great, but inside her it is very, very different. You hang around laughing and scratching and feeling “fearless, free and feline and female”, and figure you can do the family thing “later”. Then you find yourself in the waiting room of a fertility clinic, teary, while $40 grand can disappear, and it still might not work. Seriously. Having children is baseball, not golf. It is a young, or at least youngish, woman’s game. It is by no means impossible later, but you should have no illusions. This information is so explosive socially that even your ob/gyn doctor, if pressed, will stammer and hedge, and try not to give a definite answer, but it’s true. Men, this affects you, too. If, eventually, you decide it really is Papa time now, but your contemporaries can’t do much any more, and, the women who still can, see you as OLD, it can really hurt. Please be careful.
Michael is absolutely right that the couple has to have a life as a couple apart from raising children. This can take some wiggling to work in, but it has to be done. Grandparents! Baby-sit! Papas are ESSENTIAL in the child raising thing, and not at all useless! Raising kids together is the most exciting thing two people reasonably in love can ever do. Beats hang-gliding, skiing, horsebackriding, or anything else. Both parents brings something to this common task. And you see a new person develop. And the mind of a child, so free of nonsense, so vivid, so impressionable, so strong, is the prettiest thing in the world. I, we, had no teenage traumas at all! I, we, had put in the time at the early stages, and later, the right machinery was in place, and the engine turned over. I hope you all have this joy. As for the women in med and law school, I would take them aside, look them straight in the eye, and say, careful, sucker. Enjoy your brains and money, but be careful. Look around and take careful notes, and stand up for yourself. This may take some doing. You will be fighting Mr. Market, who is a tough competitor, and who wants to dollar-ize your day, your hours, your time. ARE YOU SURE IT WILL BE FINE WITH YOU TO DIE CHILDLESS. I would say to them. And I would say, so, what needs to be done to prevent that?
“I have no shrink training at all, and I am making this stuff up as I go along”
Makes no difference, you KNOW good values. But if you were a shrink, a marital/relationship shrink, you’d know that the divorce rate sky-rocketed before women started making more money than men, and before men started cooking in the kitchen. Do these role reversals cause a bit of tension for a generation that grew up with different roles? Obviously. Any change from generation to generation causes unease. But in time, each generation adopts these changes (if they’re healthy, and I believe these are) and thrives.
“There is a ton of fear and dislike of the domesticated woman, her kitchen power, and her capacity to produce children (7,000?).”
Not fear, just the memory of moms not feeling loads of glee by defining their existence through her children, chulent and ensuring her husband feels speical. So yes, that gives me creeps. If she truly wants to do that, wonderful. I don’t believe that’s the majority…at least in the non-Haredi world (And I’d wager – judging on the levels of depression among women in those communities – that there’s a similar thing going on in Hareidi communities as well.
“A woman can do all that and work, too.”
Yes, and that’s impressive.
Plenty do. The word “creepy†mystifies me.
“I had no idea men would refuse to be taken care of with such ferocity.”
Yes, it’s called enmeshment. Nothing makes me run for the door quicker than a woman who exists to “take care of me”. Yuch. I’m much more attracted to a woman with interesting hobbies, ideas, etc. As a friend once said, I’m looking for a partner, not a cook.
Translation: you are no longer important. You are only a source of sperm. Now that you have fulfilled your biological imperative, you are obsolete. Please report for dismantlement at 0800 hours. Your real self interest is having nice children. Your real self interest is having nice children. Your real self interest is having nice children. Your real self interest is having nice children.
Okay, so maybe I’m exaggerating a little, but I feel like there should be more to a marriage than cranking out “nice children.” And if somebody’s only point of contact with their spouse is children, then they don’t really have a marriage, they have a baby-making contract. And if their marriage is built on the fact that they’re raising children, then “when the kids step out of the cracked shell,” there’s not going to be anything left for the parents. Their raison d’etre is off making bad decisions in college, and they have to face up to the fact that they have nothing to actually build a relationship on.
And that strikes me as terrifying.
“A woman feels about a man who cooks better than she does the way a man feels about a woman who makes more money than he does, and/or knows more about sports than he does.”
Jewish Mother,
So all these woman going into Law, Medicine, etc., what are they to do? I mean, they’re having a hard enought time dating. Should they eliminate all the men making less than $90,000 a year? And if he bakes better cookies, should she give him the boot as well? Most of my female friends are professionals. They make equal to if not more than their husbands. Should I warn them about their impending divorce?
Is Mama overwhelmed by children who need her non-stop? Try to be patient; rewards come later when they turn out well, because Mama invested time and energy in them. Your real self-interest is having nice children!!! The other kind cancel out any other benefits. The gratitude of a woman toward a man who is a good father is very strong stuff. It may not show when she is busy on the front lines, but you will see it when she comes up for air. You will be grateful to HER when you see the children developing well. They grow up in a blink, so enjoy. Plenty of time alone later with Missus when the kids step out of the cracked shell, give you a hug, thank you for everything and fly, fly fly, fly, fly.
OK I am an excellent cook. Did you see my post on Whole wheat farfels?
It’s not the sex per se. Sex represent imo, passion, love. These could be represented by sleeping together, touching, talking, going on dates. We have none of that.
We have the kids, that is the main part of our joint lives.
Filter, purchase a subscription to Suicide Girls? Or perhaps he learns how to cook?
The only problem w/ the frum picture is when one of the partners wants more sex than the other. What does one do if their partner likes sex once or twice a month? What recourse does one have? What if the woman refuses all discussion on the topic, refuses to go to counseling, refuses, refuses, refuses.
What does said man do w/ his problem?
A woman feels about a man who cooks better than she does the way a man feels about a woman who makes more money than he does, and/or knows more about sports than he does. If you want a spouse, you have to be realistic about where these fault lines lie. They have been papered over, not eliminated. It’s not fair, either, because we women have taken to ourselves the right to compete as brutally as necessary at the office, then we go home, change out of our business clothes, change hats, slip into something comfortable, and wonder why the exact same men we trashed for a promotion or project does not want to marry us. I was trying to help with that.
I have no shrink training at all, and I am making this stuff up as I go along, post by post. These are my long-held feelings and ideas, but, I am thinking of new things because of what you are saying. This is a genuine un-scripted discussion. There is a ton of fear and dislike of the domesticated woman, her kitchen power, and her capacity to produce children (7,000?). A woman can do all that and work, too. Plenty do. The word “creepy” mystifies me. I hear it as a mixture of terror laced with disgust. I had no idea men would refuse to be taken care of with such ferocity. I thought the male attitude toward cooking was mild enjoyment. But men seem to cherish their stoves the way the Marines cherish their rifles. Can only be pried from their cold, dead fingers. What passion!!!!! There must be some dreadful responsibilities they utterly refuse to be saddled with. “His woman” is a phrase I find creepy! Can’t you say the noble English word “wife”? But I very much appreciate your discussion and I respect your ideas. 🙂
No, no, I don’t want to take that bet. And my wife is a very fine cook, just so we get that straight.
TM,
True enough. But I’m willing to place my bets that a man doesn’t die alone because he’s a better cook than his woman. Wanna bet?
Ah but shtreimel, since she may be older than you, she may have seen things you haven’t. Yet.
😉
“Not creepy.”
TM…this is:
“Maybe he has more culinary talent than she does. He might, too. Poor girl. And he will die alone, the poor guy, clasping his cherished recipe notes. ”
creepy. Moreover, at least for me, it does the opposite of what JM is trying to promote.
“The secular Montreal friends who are doing very well, are they married?”
Yup. Kids and everything. And the men cook. The women work. And yes, they seem to be doing very well.
“Did ANY of the MO marriages work out?”
Of course.
“Was the bad stuff less common than among the secular people?”
That’s my point. We keep trying to convince people that a Orthodox families/couples have cornered the market on satisfaction. At least in the MO world, this isn’t the case. Perhaps Aish is going to have to chagne their tune and convince/sell everybody to become a Belzer Chassid. Because my experience tells me that their are many frum people whereby husbands cook, kippahs aren’t worn, and synagogue isn’t attended. And their shtreimel wearing, white knicker sock sporting Chassidim who do very bad things. It’s a bitter pill to swallow. But that’s life.
Not creepy. Generational difference. I think JM means well and does make sense in that it’s true that two career families have their work cut out for them. It’s easier to have this old-fashioned set-up, in my opinion.
I guess it depends upon your sense of gender roles.
“Is anybody else starting to find this sort of “Jewish Dear Abby Only Holding a Pistol to Your Head†style of love advice a little creepy?”
Very,
Well, being an Orthodox Jew, I’m all for getting married to a Nice Jewish Girl(tm) and having the prerequisite 8 thousand Jewish children. I think consistency, loyalty, continuity and family are all great things. But I don’t think cooking dinner for your girlfriend or your fiance or your wife will destroy your relationship either. I mean, honestly.
I have to agree that being a decent cook has been mostly helpful in life.
Is it important to eat dinner with the same person five years from now, as tonight? If so, how can that be arranged? I was working on that, and putting everything else subordinate to that. To me, that is paramount. I advocate consistency, loyalty, continuity. I have seen jobs and friends come and go, but family remain through it all, the one constant. What is your take on that?
Wait. I’m a good cook. I like to cook. I like my cooking. Women like my cooking. How does this translate into me dying alone?
Is anybody else starting to find this sort of “Jewish Dear Abby Only Holding a Pistol to Your Head” style of love advice a little creepy?
Seriously, if a man is a good cook (better, let’s say, than his girlfriend/wife/whatever) should he give up eating good food at home for the rest of his life just to fit in Jewish Mother’s idea of proper gender roles?
Also, I’m pretty sure, contrary to what Jewish Mother says, most people have had somebody cook for them. In fact, unless they hunt, kill and cook all their own food, everybody has had somebody cook for them.
Are women not allowed to have a man cook for them in this world of goose-stepping gender separation? I mean, as far as I know, a lot of girls like it when men cook for them.
The secular Montreal friends who are doing very well, are they married? Is that what you mean by doing very well? I hope so. As for the kvetching mothers, oy. But at least there was a future in place there, some children. Did ANY of the MO marriages work out? Did most? Was the bad stuff less common than among the secular people? Maybe I do not know anything after all.
Ok, Jewish Mother…you officially wigged me out. That last comment….yuch. And now let’s get down to business. I remember all the “Jewish Mothers” a la Aish types, telling us young ‘uns that if you do this, and that, respect gender roles…presto, no more social ills (or at least to the degree that the goyim and secular Jews experience them). And then I befriended some MO folks…super wonderful guys/gals. And I was accepted into their community. Attended their shuls, etc. Even hung out with some Belz folk. Know what? They often have the exact same problems that secular folks do, albeit with a twist. The women were often complaining because they had to stay home with their kids. And if there wasn’t an eruv, my friend’s wives looked like something out of a Joy Division video. And then you’re privy to the unhappy marriages, separations, and divorce…I was shocked, SHOCKED to find out that frum people divorced. I mean, they’re doing everything that Jewish Mother is suggesting.
Anyway…time heals all wounds. My idealized portrait of Orthodoxy died and is slowly being reborn with a healthier attitude. Plus, I’m no longer surprised to hear that all of my secular Montreal friends – who are committing all the very sins Jewish Mother is warning us about – are doing very, very well.
Alas, when it comes to relationship advice…there’s nothing better than Dr. David Schnarch.
“A girl will be judged on her cuisine”
TM…I believe you said: “There is a kinda generational thing going on here”. From here on in, this will be my mantra.
If men reject gender roles, and cook, then life is reduced to a chili bake-off where no holds are barred and women are not safe from rejection and scorn. A girl will be judged on her cuisine, not appreciated because she cooked in the first place, and gave of herself, her talent no matter how meager, her caring and her time. No, it’s who put more fresh spices in the guacamole. Maybe he did. Maybe he has more culinary talent than she does. He might, too. Poor girl. And he will die alone, the poor guy, clasping his cherished recipe notes. This is a man? TM, you speak at your ease. There is a Mrs. TM. The rest of us need some truths which will help us be happy too. So forget your frying pan and tell us what the Parsha is this week.
Damn, I now remember I should be cooking more often.
Torah helps. A Torah way of life keeps people special to each other because there are limits, roles and rules. Familiarity breeds contempt, that is the big problem. Mystery is the biggest attraction, and mystery has been abolished. So people are scared. They are scared they will be required to check their own mystery at the door, and they don’t want to be stripped naked so they opt out completely. When you meet people, please don’t exchange life stories too much, just a little. Train yourself to read minds, gestures, body language, facial expressions. It can be done, with a little effort and practice. You don’t need the person’s resume, and they have no right to yours. It is natural that you are not impressed! Since no one has ever cooked for you, what is there to impress you? I am all for books. But if books were enough, you would all be snuggled into armchairs having literary discussions with your spouses. Are you? No. What was our first experience of love? Having our diaper tenderly changed? No. It was being tenderly fed. That was the first contact with a fellow human being after our arrival on this earth, and it remains the most potent and significant. Therefore, I ask, when is dinner? What should I bring?
Ah, it’s hard to dislike, and dismiss, Jewish Mother. Though I’m not sure divorce is the issue nearly as much as the lackluster marriages.
Divorce. That’s what I mean. It became extremely common. This disease is actually CATCHING, believe it or not. In a community of married friends, when one or two couples divorce, bingo, they almost all do. It was rare, became rampant, remains rampant. Even a woman who works hard full time should occasionally make a hand-made dinner and invite people for Shabbat. With a food processor and a crock pot, etc etc, this is not very hard. Especially if the guests know to bring stuff. Food from the hands of a woman is MAGIC no matter what she did all day, in a board room, or a science lab, or if she was home all day. The home will ALWAYS be structured like this, or there will be no homes. The man can do what he wants, much or little, but he remains a man and he will feel the magic no matter who he is. If homes could be structured any other way, you would all have homes !!!!! And you don’t. QED! Now, who said the food had to be fattening? My shredded cabbage salads with vinaigrette are famous, and so is my lentil soup. I always take the skin off the chicken. Stop dancing and start eating, if you want to survive! You may look worse, but you will feel better. Why be toned and miserable, like the people in the ads? Better to be a little plumper with a SMILE on your face, THAT kind of smile. Mmmm. My father and uncles were lectured about being fat until they died, full of strength, manhood and joy, at 92 and 96 respecctively. WITH KIDS.
Jewish Mother,
“This the fruit of the eighties social breakdowns.”
Interesting comment. Please explain.
It’s the NICE kind of power, the benevolent, giving, maternal kind, so there is no need for willies. I am informing everybody of the very great power of kugel, which your willies are strong proof of. There is no “reducing it all”. Men and women have not changed one bit, they are just brutally estranged from each other. There is no need to be terrified of being cooked for. As you point out, eloquently but indelicately, you have an inalienable rank. No worries. Well, the women have their rank too, of another kind. Gee wilikers. This the fruit of the eighties social breakdowns. But I stoutly maintain that kugel is eternal, and can be rebuilt, speedily and in your days. More cholent?
“There is a kinda generational thing going on here Shtreimel.”
I agree. And that’s why I think her words will fall on deaf ears. And that’s a shame, because much of what she is saying is well stated and important advice.
There is a kinda generational thing going on here Shtreimel. I think Jewish Mother comes from a period where the home was more likely to be a woman’s domain, while the husband went off and earned. You ever see cookbooks from that period? Man, if you actually follow the recipes, you can give every member of your family a coronary by the time they’re 40.
“What am I saying that is so wierd?”
All of this “C’mon women, cook for yo man”. The whole thing wigs me out. I prefer the balanced approach. I like the vareity. I’m not suggesting that we’re the same…far from it. But to reduce it all to kugel is misguided.
BTW…I have a penis and everything. So if this:
“The home is also a tremendous theater of female power”
gives me the willies, I’m wondering how the females are feeling?
1) It’s pitiful and wimpy to ALWAYS shlep to somebody else’s place. Sometimes, fine. But ALWAYS? How dependent! How weak! Host your OWN Shabbat occasionally, no matter how small your flat is. You will LOVE it because 2) This puts you in charge in a very pleasurable way. Even if you live with 8 roommates in a broom closet, it is YOUR HOME. The smaller it is, the more people will be touched that you invited them. The home is also a tremendous theater of female power: home-made food from her hands has a MAGIC you just have to experience to believe. Aish and other wonderful organizations like it were not designed to substitute for homes, but to help people establish Jewish connection, and new Jewish homes. What am I saying that is so wierd?
“Don’t be pitiful. Be in charge. Women! Are you listening?”
I don’t know. I find Jewish Mother is bang-on with some things, and then at other times, she sounds like a psychiatric patient from a Polish shtetyl.
Ricker Aish, institutions such as Aish are wonderful, but home cooking is the magic I am advocating, there is nothing to replace it, ever. HOME HOME HOME. Your little flat is a HOME, so invite people to it, preside, give, learn the joys of hospitality. Authority is fun. Exercise yours, under your own roof. Don’t be a latch-key kid, going to the neighbors’ to play. You are not an orphan. And a woman should be cooking that food. Don’t be pitiful. Be in charge. Women! Are you listening?
😆
You are being too strict. If you don’t let him have an opinion until he has read 450 posts how will he get into a good college? Let the kid breathe. He has to live his own life. Everybody can’t be a doctor.
You speak of building relationships and avoiding self gratification, but then you skip from comment 50 to 500. Hmmmm….
I skipped from post 50 to 500 so sorry if this has allready been said.
From my understanding, Onan does not mean you refrain from intimacy, it means that while being intimacy you hold back, because you do not want the chance of creating life or some such thing.
Its not about self gratification, its about building a relationship. Not falling into a relationship, or being shoved into it, but building it.
Its hard to build a house with soggy wood.
You men. You always test the virtue of the women, and they always fail your test, and then you don’t marry them. But they are supposed to be warm. And they are supposed to follow your lead, so they are, and they do. The sweet naive things. Your method is not producing marriages, so why persist in it? No knock on Aish, which is great of course. Girls! Be warned! The girls who go home early will have the most grandchildren.
Ya know, clapping singing, sweating, that sort a tang.
Music on Shabbat?
Sounds like a plan. They are doing this every week at Aish on the upper west side. After the Rabbi leaves, they have some hot dirty dancing going on there. Y’all should come.
T Y, TM. It is mysterious how the gender roles must be preserved. Saddening, but there it is. No mechitza, no men!!! Ladies, you will eat alone as a sisterhood if there is no mechitza. What fun is that? And, if the men cook a little, bring a dish, the women will be irritated and THEY will not come. Don’t let them! Hand made food made by a woman is the only social glue. It gets worse. The men should stay sitting while the women get up to clear the table. Sigh. Ladies, order them loudly to sit back down. If you want children. Fine point: the men should bring the wine and fresh fruit. The women should bring sorbet, cake and salad. Sigh, sigh. The women should not sing in front of the men, as everybody knows. Please don’t scream. Of course our women have brains, sense, opinions and compete literacy. But the gender roles are the railroad ties.
It’s about time we got to the halfway point of this discussion.
I’m sorry to do this. But I had to. I don’t have much to say, but it was a moral imperative. I had to be the 500th comment. We certainly are a people with opinions…
Very interesting discussing everything with you guys.
Neshikot (or not) l’kulkhem!
E