It seems that we’ve been going over and over the same debate about the streams of Judaism. It is not only tiresome, but it is demoralizing to watch the unfortunate but undeniably negative perceptions of other streams that we’ve been reading on Jewlicious. As Rabbi Aviner of Ateret Cohanim Yeshiva has pointed out, we are brothers and one nation, and that should be one of the values that drives our discussions. While debates such as these have a long and prominent history (Saducees and Pharisees, anyone?), I couldn’t help but feel that perhaps it might improve matters if people actually had some information at their fingertips.
So I’m going to do some cutting and pasting and borrowing of content from sources that I believe will provide a short overview of Conservative Judaism. This is a long post, but I believe it’s worth the read, and encourage those who are interested to go directly to the sources by clicking on the provided links.
1. I located this easy-to-understand “FAQ” by Rabbi Chaim Weiner about the Masorti (masorti means “traditional” in Hebrew) movement, as the Conservative movement is known outside the U.S.:
The basic beliefs of a Masorti Jew are no different than those of traditional Judaism. We believe in a God who created the world. We believe in a covenant between God and the people of Israel. We believe that we are comrnanded, as a part of that covenant, to live a special lifestyle, spelled out in the Torah and articulated in “halacha – Jewish law”. We accept that this law is defined by the classical books of the rabbis: the Mishnah, the Talmud, and thereafter refined through the codes and responsa.
The main principle that defines conservative Judaism is our relationship to modern science and scholarship.
What role do the results of modern studies, particularly in the fields of history, archaeology, bible scholarship and literature play in the understanding of our tradition?
The Masorti/Conservative approach to this question is unequivocal: The results of these sciences cannot be ignored. They must be used to inform our religious beliefs, to help us understand our tradition better. They cannot be rejected outright, without careful consideration of their claims.
There are many areas where the results of scholarship and tradition seem to contradict. In these instances it is our position that we must interpret the tradition in a way that it doesn’t contradict our knowledge from other sources. This is not a matter of convenience. The only reason to follow a tradition is because it is true. If we accept our tradition as truth, then it must agree with the facts as we know them. This means that, although we believe in the same things as traditional Judaism, how we understand those things is influenced by the findings of modern science and modern thought.
Do Masorti Jews believe that the Torah comes from heaven?
Bible scholarship has shown that the Torah has a history. It is difficult to accept the claim that the Torah was handed down from heaven at a certain point in history in the literal sense. We therefore understand this term as a metaphor to mean that the Torah is divine and that it reflects God’s will. Research can help us understand the process of how the Torah came about, but will probably never give us a full picture. From our point of view, the idea that a concept as complex as “how God communicates to people” could be reduced to a literal description is unacceptable.
How can you consider the findings of scholarship to be true? There are always different schools of thought, and the positions of the scholars constantly change as new information becomes available.
True. Science is not infallible and the more we know, the better we understand things. We do not accept modern notions as “Torah from Sinai” as truths to be defended no matter what. Every finding must be accepted for what it is: a guess, a fact, an interpretation or a most probable explanation. We must always be open to learning more. However, the more information we have, the more that evidence from different fields of study agrees, the closer we get to the truth. The fact that one is not absolutely sure doesn’t mean that we should just deny facts or accept things which are simply impossible. Our beliefs must always be reviewed by our critical understanding. Not because we are perfect, but because our faculty of reason is what God has given us, and we have no better tool to use to search for the truth. Our reason is not perfect, but it’s the best we have.
If you do not believe that the Torah was given by God literally, does this not undermine your commitment to observe the tradition?
No. If one believes that the commandments are God’s will, it does not matter how you understand how they were given. You would still feel bound to observe them.
The role that halacha plays: When we looked at ideology, we saw that there were many similarities between the ideology of Masorti and that of traditional Judaism. This similarity cuts through to halacha.
What is halacha? The Torah tells us of a special covenant between the Jewish people and God. As part of this covenant Jews have been given many commandments. The commandments of the Torah are of a general nature. We do not observe the commandments as they are in the Torah. There is a whole literature – the Mishnah, the Talmuds, the Midrash, the responsa literature and the codes -which explains and develops the commandments and translates them into rules for everyday living.
These rules, the way of life of the observant Jew, are the halacha. The halacha is far from being a closed book; everything being clear-cut and sealed in stone. There is not a page in the Talmud which is free from debate, not an issue over which there is not some difference of opinion. The halacha is dynamic. It has within it the ability to grow and to respond to changes. However, despite differences of opinion and the freedom that exist within the halacha, there have emerged guidelines which help define the system. Over time the Babylonian Talmud has become the final authority in Jewish law. Precedents have been set and practice has been established. Even when confronting new realities, the precedents of the past and the underlying principles which have been established are to be taken into consideration when deciding how the halacha applies today.
All that has been said so far is true for both Masorti and Orthodox Judaism. Where does Masorti differ?
The differences are not in how halacha is understood, but in how it is applied. Whenever a rabbi is called upon to give a ruling, in addition to determining the halacha, he must also judge the situation he is ruling upon. As Masorti rabbis understand the world differently than Orthodox rabbis, the way they apply the halacha differs.
This difference in the way we look at the world manifests itself in many ways. Masorti Jews respect academic research as a means to understand the world better and therefore the results of this research are brought to bear in our halachic decisions. Masorti Jews accept many of the values of modern society. We are integrated in the modern world and our halachic decisions reflect this integration. Rather than trying to set Jews apart from general society, we seek ways to make it possible to be an observant Jew within it. Our constituency includes many Jews who have not made a full commitment to observance. As a result of this, the importance of enabling “somewhat” observant Jews to play a fuller role in the community is an important consideration in our decisions.
The biggest difference in our approach centres on our attitude to change. Our society is characterized by rapid social change. Is this change good? Should we welcome it? Do you resist it? It is in those areas of our lives where the greatest social changes have occurred where the differences between the movements in Judaism are most apparent.
The most prominent example of the need to take a position regarding change is when we come to define the role of women in the synagogue. In our secular society the role of women has radically been changed. Women today are fully integrated in society, are educated, hold positions of power and share equal rights. The halacha grew in an age where none of this was true. The main challenge facing all traditional groups today is how to respond to this change. It is the Masorti position that it is the ability to address itself to change that has kept the halacha alive through the centuries. We maintain that failure to apply the tools of change that exist within the halacha to the changes in our world today will leave the halacha as irrelevant to most Jews.
Although these attitudes are wide reaching, it should be stressed that in most cases, there is no difference between the interpretations of Masorti and of Orthodox rabbis.
2. Ismar Schorsch, widely considered as one of the leading thinkers of the Conservative movement wrote The Sacred Cluster which defines the seven core beliefs and values that define the movement. Here are some selected (that is, selected by yours truly, so please forgive any hiccups and errors, I am doing my best) excerpts:
The Sacred Cluster
There are seven such core values, to my mind, that imprint Conservative Judaism with a principled receptivity to modernity balanced by a deep reverence for tradition. Whereas other movements in modern Judaism rest on a single tenet, such as the autonomy of the individual or the inclusiveness of God’s revelation at Sinai (Torah mi-Sinai), Conservative Judaism manifests a kaleidoscopic cluster of discrete and unprioritized core values. Conceptually they fall into two sets – three national and three religious – which are grounded and joined to each other by the overarching presence of God,who represents the seventh and ultimate core value. The dual nature of Judaism as polity and piety, a world religion that never transcended its national origins, is unified by God. In sum, a total of seven core values corresponding to the most basic number in Judaism’s construction of reality.
The Centrality of Modern Israel
Hebrew: The Irreplaceable Language of Jewish Expression
Devotion to the Ideal of Klal Yisrael
The Defining Role of Torah in the Reshaping of Judaism
The Study of Torah
The Governance of Jewish Life by Halakha
Belief in God
The Centrality of Modern Israel
For Conservative Jews, as for their ancestors, Israel is not only the birthplace of the Jewish people, but also its final destiny. Sacred texts, historical experience and liturgical memory have conspired to make it for them, in the words of Ezekiel, “the most desirable of all lands (20:6).” Its welfare is never out of mind. Conservative Jews are the backbone of Federation leadership in North America and the major source of its annual campaign. They visit Israel, send their children over a summer or for a year and support financially every one of its worthy institutions.(1) Israeli accomplishments on the battlefield and in the laboratory, in literature and politics, fill them with pride. Their life is a dialectic between homeland and exile. No matter how prosperous or assimilated, they betray an existential angst about anti-Semitism that denies them a complete sense of at-homeness anywhere in the diaspora.
Hebrew: The Irreplaceable Language of Jewish Expression
Hebrew as the irreplaceable language of Jewish expression is the second core value of Conservative Judaism. Its existence is coterminous with that of the Jewish people and the many layers of the language mirror the cultures in which Jews perpetuated Judaism. It was never merely a vehicle of communication, but part of the fabric and texture of Judaism. Words vibrate with religious meaning, moral values and literary associations. Torah and Hebrew are inseparable and Jewish education was always predicated on mastering Hebrew. Hebrew literacy is the key to Judaism, to joining the unending dialectic between sacred texts, between Jews of different ages, between God and Israel. To know Judaism only in translation is, to quote Bialik, akin to kissing the bride through the veil.
Devotion to the Ideal of Klal Yisrael
The third core value is an undiminished devotion to the ideal of klal yisrael, the unfractured totality of Jewish existence and the ultimate significance of every single Jew. In the consciousness of Conservative Jews, there yet resonates the affirmation of haverim kol yisrael (all Israel is still joined in fellowship) – despite all the dispersion, dichotomies and politicization that history has visited upon us, Jews remainunited in a tenacious pilgrimage of universal import.(3) It is that residue of Jewish solidarity that makes Conservative Jews the least sectarian or parochial members of the community, that renders them the ideal donor of Federation campaigns and brings them to support unstintingly every worthy cause in Jewish life. Often communal needs will prompt them to compromise the needs of the movement.
Such admirable commitment to the welfare of the whole does not spring from any special measure of ethnicity, as is so often ascribed to Conservative Jews. Rather, I would argue that it is nurtured by the acute historical sense cultivated by their leadership. In opposition to exclusively rational, moral or halahkic criteria for change, Conservative Judaism embraced a historical romanticism that rooted tradition in the normative power of a heroic past. To be sure, history infused an awareness of the richness and diversity of the Jewish experience. But it also presumed to identify a normative Judaism and invest it with the sanctity of antiquity.
The Defining Role of Torah in the Reshaping of Judaism
The fourth core value is the defining role of Torah in the reshaping of Judaism after the loss of political sovereignty in 63 B.C.E. and the Second Temple in 70 C.E. to the Romans. In their stead, the Rabbis fashioned the Torah into a portable homeland, the synagogue into a national theater for religious drama and study into a form of worship. Conservative Judaism never repudiated any of these remarkable transformations. Chanting the Torah each Shabbat is still the centerpiece of the Conservative service…
…For Conservative Jews, the Torah is no less sacred, if less central, than it was for their pre-modern ancestors. I use the word “sacred” advisedly. The Torah is the foundation text of Judaism, the apex of an inverted pyramid of infinite commentary, not because it is divine, but because it is sacred, that is, adopted by the Jewish people as its spiritual font. The term skirts the divisive and futile question of origins, the fetid swamp of heresy. The sense of individual obligation, of being commanded, does not derive from divine authorship, but communal consent. The Written Torah, no less than the Oral Torah, reverberates with the divine-human encounter, with “a minimum of revelation and a maximum of interpretation.” It is no longer possible to separate the tinder from the spark. What history can attest is that the community of Israel has always huddled in the warmth of the flame.
The Study of Torah
Accordingly, the study of Torah, in both the narrow and extended sense, is the fifth core value of Conservative Judaism. As a canon without closure, the Hebrew Bible became the unfailing stimulus for midrash, the medium of an I-Thou relationship with the text and with God. Each generation and every community appropriated the Torah afresh through their own interpretive activity, creating a vast exegetical dialogue in which differences of opinion were valid and preserved. The undogmatic preeminence of Torah spawned a textually-based culture that prized individual creativity and legitimate conflict.
What Conservative Judaism brings to this ancient and unfinished dialectic are the tools and perspectives of modern scholarship blended with traditional learning and empathy. The full meaningof sacred texts will always elude those who restrict the range of acceptable questions, fear to read contextually and who engage in willful ignorance. It is precisely the sacredness of these texts that requires of serious students to employ every piece of scholarly equipment to unpack their contents. Their power is crippled by inflicting upon them readings that no longer carry any intellectual cogency. Modern Jews deserve the right to study Torah in consonance with their mental world and not solely through the eyes of their ancestors. Judaism does not seek to limit our thinking, only our actions.
This is not to say that earlier generations got it all wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. To witness their deep engagement with Torah and Talmud is to tap into inexhaustible wellsprings of mental acuity and spiritual power. It is to discover the multiple and ingenious ways – critical, midrashic, kabbalistic and philosophical – in which they explicated these texts. Like them, Conservative scholars take their placein an unbroken chain of exegetes, but with their own arsenal of questions, resources, and methodologies. No matter how differently done, the study of Torah remains at the heart of the Conservative spiritual enterprise.
Moreover, it is pursued with the conviction that critical scholarship will yield new religious meaning for the inner life of contemporary Jews…
The Governance of Jewish Life by Halakha
The sixth core value is the governance of Jewish life by halakha, which expresses the fundamental thrust of Judaism to concretize ethics and theology into daily practice. The native language of Judaism has always been the medium of deeds. Conservative Jews are rabbinic and not biblical Jews. They avow the sanctity of the Oral Torah erected by Rabbinic Judaism alongside the Written Torah as complementary and vital to deepen, enrich and transform it. Even if in their individual lives they may often fall short on observance, they generally do not ask of their rabbinic leadership to dismantle wholesale the entire halakhic system in order to translate personal behavior into public policy. Imbued with devotion to klal yisrael and a pervasive respect for tradition, they are more inclined to sacrifice personal autonomy for a reasonable degree of consensus and uniformity in communal life.
Collectively, the injunctions of Jewish law articulate Judaism’s deep-seated sense of covenant, a partnership with the divine to finish the task of creation. Individually, the mitzvot accomplish different ends. Some serve to harness and focus human energy by forging a regimen made up of boundaries, standards and rituals. To indulge in everything we are able to do, does not necessarily enhance human happiness or well-being. Some mitzvot provide the definitions and norms for the formation of community, while others still generate respites of holiness in which the feeling of God’s nearness pervades and overwhelms.
The institution of Shabbat, perhaps the greatest legacy of the Jewish religious imagination, realizes all three. The weekly rest it imposes both humbles and elevates. By desisting from all productive work for an entire day, Jews acknowledge God’s sovereignty over the world and the status of human beings as mere tenants and stewards…
…[Does not lead] Conservative Judaism to assert blithely that the halakha is immutable. Its historical sense is simply too keen. The halakhic system, historically considered, evinces a constant pattern of responsiveness, change and variety. Conservative Judaism did not read that record as carte blanche for a radical revision or even rejection of the system, but rather as warrant for valid adjustment where absolutely necessary. The result is a body of Conservative law sensitive to human need, halakhic integrity and the worldwide character of the Jewish community…
Belief in God
I come, at last, to the seventh and most basic core value of Conservative Judaism: its belief in God. It is this value which plants the religious nationalism and national religion that are inseparable from Judaism in the universal soil of monotheism. Remove God, the object of Israel’s millennial quest, and the rest will soon unravel. But this is precisely what Conservative Judaism refused to do, even after the Holocaust. Abraham Joshua Heschel, who came to the United States in March, 1940, to emerge after the war as the most significant Jewish theologian of the modern period, placed God squarely at the center of his rich exposition of the totality of the Jewish religious experience.
To speak of God is akin to speaking about the undetected matter of the universe. Beyond the reach of our instruments, it constitutes at least 90 per cent of the mass in the universe. Its existence is inferred solely from its effects: the gravitational force, otherwise unaccounted for, that it exerts on specific galactic shapes and rotational patterns and that it contributes in general to holding the universe together.
Similarly, Heschel was wont to stress the partial and restricted nature of biblical revelation.
“With amazing consistency the Bible records that the theophanies witnessed by Moses occurred in a cloud. Again and again we hear that the Lord ‘called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud’ (Exodus 24:16)…
We must neither willfully ignore nor abuse by allegorization these important terms. Whatever specific fact it may denote, it unequivocally conveys to the mind the fundamental truth that God was concealed even when He revealed, that even while His voice became manifest, His essence remained hidden.”(6)
For Judaism, then, God is a felt presence rather than a visible form, a voice rather than a vision. Revelation tends to be an auditory and not a visual experience. The grandeur of God is rarely compromised by the hunger to see or by the need to capture God in human language. And yet, God’s nearness and compassion are sensually asserted. The austerity of the one and the intimacy of the other are the difference between what we know and what we feel. God is both remote and nearby, transcendent and immanent. To do justice to our head and heart, that is, to the whole person, Judaism has never vitiated the polarity that lies in the midst of its monotheistic faith…
I’m Messianic and am a little shocked at the infighting among ‘am Yisra’el here and at the proselytizing by the haredim. I don’t agree with all Masorti or Reform points, but I see the Masortim and Reform Jews here trying to be tolerant and informative more than I’ve seen in many other Masorti and Reform circles. Can’t the haredim simply learn about lo-haredi Yahadut and agree to disagree?
Hi ! Pessover sameaj ! jag Pesaj sameaj to old of us !
I want to say something in spanish for the people tooking in this langue and beacause my inglish is bad !
Feliz Pesaj casher ve sameaj ! y a todos los judios estan invitados a ver y participar de Arca juive franco-espagniole ! que funcionara en Pesaj con cuenta gotas ! sitio msn grupos
Shalom
http://groups.msn.com/arcajuivefranco-espagniole/_whatsnew.msnw
Being raised in Mississippi as a Jew, you had basically 2 choices – Reform, or Non-Practicing. After moving away from there to a larger Jewish community, I realized that the “Reform” of the larger community was too radical for me (I always insisted that my son cover his head while in the synagogue, the “Rabbi” didn’t even do that, several parents brought HAM to the end of year picnic, etc). Since I didn’t know anyone at the Orthodox Shul – all of my older relatives had passed – I went to the Conservative one. Now, I keep Kosher and am Shabbos observant. Although I’m not “Orthodox” ( a really horrible term if you think about it – I would prefer Traditional), in the “Orthodox” sense of the word, I have come a long way. Do I find myself growing in my Judaism? Yes. Do I typically find the “Orthodox” community unwelcoming? Unfortunately, yes. When you try to use the Cookie Cutter all or nothing comments, it really reinforces, at least in my mind, that it really doesn’t matter how much I’ve grown if I’m still considered “Conservative. I think, in my heart, that less time should be spent figuring out what our differences are. I think a lot more time should be spent, especially by the “Orthodox” community, as they are the most traditional, to helping us who know and understand less, but want to, to learn, instead of trying to outcast us more. I took my children to Disney this summer, and ran into an “Orthodox” family. I greeted them with a hearty “Shalom Ya’ll” and even directed them to where I knew they could get a kosher meal, and they STILL looked at me like a leper. Aren’t we all supposed to be a part of a huge mishpacha? A Shame that it seems as if we are not.
zionist occupier –
you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
(continuation of above, since the post cut off my paragraphs), Qur’an, Vedas, Kitabi-Aqdas, and even Moby Dick are equally sacred as the Torah. Then what is the problem with a Jew following any of those books or converting out of Judaism, if all are equal?
“The term skirts the divisive and futile question of origins, the fetid swamp of heresy. The sense of individual obligation, of being commanded, does not derive from divine authorship, but communal consent. The Written Torah, no less than the Oral Torah, reverberates with the divine-human encounter, with “a minimum of revelation and a maximum of interpretation.”
How long are you going to insult the Jewish intelligence with your non-sensical comments? Being commanded comes from communal consent, not from G-D telling you, “Do this, don’t do that”? Why would I listen to a community, why should I take the opinion of men? Why should I submit my life, and all of my faculties to something written by some putz (according to “Biblical scholarship”) 2100 yrs. ago, and even die for it, if it is not G-D’s Work? What if the communal consent all of a sudden vanishes, then what? We abandon Torah? Then why observe Torah in the first place if it’s something that can be voted in or out? It’s a useless man-made document. And what if, the Christian right all of a sudden decides to pose us with the age-old decision, Christ or the sword.If your line of thinking is to be accepted, I say we all go “prayse jaysus”, instead of dying for something which is, afterall, equal to the NT, and not holier. I wouldn’t want to die, or live by, something written by men, and as soon as they change their mind can be thrown out of the window.
“The Torah is the foundation text of Judaism, the apex of an inverted pyramid of infinite commentary, not because it is divine, but because it is sacred, that is, adopted by the Jewish people as its spiritual font.”
Now that drivel is truly insulting to one’s intelligence. How can you insult the Jewish intellect so much? How can something be scared if it is not of Divine origin? According to that line of thinking, if I love a piece of literature so much, then it is sacred, and that leads to the conclusion that tne NT
Mr. The Middle, I am a Religious Zionist Jew, and I have also returned from a very beautiful synagogue service with many families. The difference? Our services actually have meaning because we believe there is truth behind them, and they are mandated by the Almighty HASHEM. Our services give our children reason to stay Jewish, while yours strike the Jewish youth as hypocrisy. Why fast if G-D didn’t command it? Why come to synagogue if it wasn’t mandated by a Supreme Being? What reason is there for me to follow a document full of errors,anachronisms, and historical/archeological discrepancies? That is what you teach them, is it not? And trust me, Jewish kids aren’t that easily stupid to be duped.They smell hypocrisy a million miles away, and sadly enough it’s not the hypocrisy they abandon most of the time, it’s Judaism, religion, G-D. Why? Because they were raised to believe that G-D changes His Will according to what you and I want, not the other way around. That what He mandated wasn’t really revealed, but compiled,changed,edited, etc. And we wonder why we have a Jewish spiritual crisis? That is why most youth, disheartened with the emptiness and hollow shell of the Hebrew day school are often turning to Orthodoxy. Either that or they are completely breaking off and becoming Goyim.
I would like for once one of the non-Orthodox authroity to be frigging honest and say what he or she means. What you’re talking about is not adaptation of Halacha, but changin it or discarding many parts of it completely so you can be comfortable, or so you can bend Torah and religion to conform with the bias of an individual who might be an athiest out to disprove the Bible. Much arechology is subjective at best. The very fact that the “masorti” movement discards the idea of the Revelation at Sinai shows that they hold nothing to be sacred enough not to discard. How far is G-D going to adapt to man? to the extent where one day killing is ok, so we bend halacha to allow that? And btw, Torah from Sinai is by no means a modern idea, it is the foundation of Judaism. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch and JD Salavechek proved that Ortodoxy is completey compatible with modern life. But breaking shabbat, allowing the consumption of non-kosher foods,marrying non-Jews, all of this is anti-halacha and is not adaptation of halacha to the modern world, but changing it completely. And one more thing, Conservatives do not know a damned thing about the Talmud, and many do not even recognize it’s authority. You people are out to bend Torah or discard it based on findings that might be subjective, biased, incomplete or inaccurate, like “Rabbi” David Wolpe who said that the Exodus never happened. How is this adapting Halacha or Torah?! This is flat out discarding it! Just be honest and stop beating around the bush!
Zionist Occupier, you represent a good amount of why my grandparents’ grandparents left the shuls and shtetlach: they felt yelled at and unsupported in their time of need and tough decision making instead of listened to and even simply agreed-to-disagreed with.
CactusJack911, you’ve proven to us over the last few weeks that you’re a horse with blinders on. No need to keep hammering it home. Really.
TheMiddle,
Who has just returned from a beautiful Ne’ilah service at a Conservative synagogue filled with lots of families and their children.
What is all the babble on this discussion anyway?
Conservative Judaism isn’t Authentic Judaism. Anyone that says it is obviously has never had any intelligent Torah teachers or any serious study. Have fun boasting your high intermarriage rate and scarfing down your trife!
Stop reading your comic books and start trying to realize why it isn’t.
To the guy who said this is all about “politics”. You apparently have no clue what you’re ranting on about–how’s your girlfriend Bridgette doing?
Yes, because like the Christians and the Musllims I actually believe Hashem spoke to the Jews at Sinai.
Funny how it’s 90% of Jews like you that don’t. How’s that ham and cheese sandwhich today?
cactus jack – that was a hateful, disgusting thing to say.
i also feel sorry for those jews who are pandered to so they do not ever learn the real truth of their religion and are instead force-fed and deluded by fundamentalism and scriptural literalism. it is because of jews like you that i despair.
~invisible
Conservative Converts are Goys that think they are Jewish. There is only one type of conversion. I feel bad for those that have been mislead by their Reform and Conservative rabbis for lying to them.
with respect to C Judaism in practice not following up to C Judaism in theory.
Yes, thats a real problem, we have masses of ordinary people, of all origins, who pick a C shul cause its comfortable or popular, but who arent real committed to C ideology.
You dont find folks like that in Reconstructionist shuls for the most part. Not cause Recon is more deeply inspiring – its simply a sociological fact, people only join recon shuls if theyre really interested in the ideology. We have the masses of Am Israel to deal with. One can leave for a tiny shul or chavurah and be with a Jewish elite, or one can stay and try to lead the masses. I dont know which is best.
I do know that if C and R judaism disappeared tomorrow, the mass of Jews, would either leave Judaism, or would join O shuls, and present the same problem at O shuls. In fact at many modern O shuls, the ones that havent drifted off to the right, they DO present that problem. In fact many of them CAME from O a generation or more ago, where they presented the same problem.
My daughter is in a confirmation class, and so are several of her friends. But most of the Bar/bat Mitzvah class didnt go on. I can see the seperation between the committed elite and the drifting mass right there. I dont know the solution to inspire the drifting mass – many of those people dont share my values. But I can tell you that having my shul turn Orthodox wouldnt solve the problem. And it would create other problems for me and my family.
Conservative, Reform, and whatever other movements are disgusting and very harmful to individual Jews and the Jewish people. And no, I’m not an orthodox Jew. I’m actually a first generation Russian Jew. My parents used ot be secular, and my mother still is (my father became religious). When I go to synagogue, even though I don’t know the difference between the tanakh and the gemara, I go to a modern-orthodox synagogue because I don’t want to listen to rabbi rachel talk about intemarriage on a microphone during shabbas, lol.
My last comment was in response to Laya. I have no beef with Shira’s plea for tolerance and compassion.
I see what you’re saying, and I think that’s a completely legitimate attitude. But I think that’s not the only legitimate view. There’s a lot to be said for a more self-assertive stance. It’s more intellectually coherent, for one thing. It also recognizes the danger of millions or even billions of religious adherents with negative ideas about non-adherents (especially Jews) that have deeps roots in their faiths. It also makes it possible to bring the world closer to the vision of the prophets: a world without war, united through belief in one God.
Of course it’s also dangerous. People get assassinated for saying the wrong thing about certain religions. People could take it the wrong way, if it’s not done in a charitable, respectful, non-fundamentalist way. But as with the Reverend above, I think it’s common for adherents of other faiths to be puzzled why Jews don’t make the case for their faith.
8 million. Whatever. I still mostly fail.
We are still so far from being able to revere other traditions, alas! Living in New York City (where we are every day lovingly presented with 6 million opportunities to feel compassion–and mostly fail, sadly. I mean, *I* mostly fail) sometimes gives me hope that we can eventually be tolerant. And when we do finally manage it, and act on it … maybe we will merit Moshiach!
Maybe “true” doesn’t have to mean factually correct as much as a real and legitimate expression of man trying to come close to God. Maybe who we believe the final prophet was or was not is simply a detail. Maybe a meaningful Judaism has to meaningfully account for the other 99.8% of the world.
But it first takes a profound security in your own faith in order to consider the possibility that maybe there are multiple paths, and one ultimate truth.
“The problem to be faced is how to combine loyalty to one’s own tradition with reverence for different traditions”
A.J. Heschel
if tolerant religions like quakerism prostelytized, we’d end up with a lot fewer fundamentalists in the world.
but i’m not advocating prostelytizing. making arguments that your religion is true is different than going door to door and trying to get people to join your religion. some reform guy actually wrote a book advocating that jews spread their religion this way! god forbid. no one should ever try to pressure people to become jewish. but arguing that judaism is true, that’s another matter (as long as it’s not done door-to-door!). if non-jews believe judaism is true, they can just remain noahides and that’s fine. they don’t need to join anything.
which religion exactly could be true if judaism is also true? of course there’s a nicer way of putting it than saying other religions are false. for one thing, all religions probably contain some beliefs that are true and some practices that are beneficial, and have contributed positively to many people’s lives. in that way they’re not all “false.” but if god exists, buddhism is wrong. if jesus isn’t the messiah, christianity is not true. if mohammed wasn’t god’s true and final prophet, islam is false. and if there is no god, or jesus is the messiah, or the koran is true, then (non-atheistic, non-messianic) judaism is false.
No one, no one, no one should proselytize. The Quakers (who are truly awesome in so very many ways) say: Teach by example. They are not wrong.
err, not so much in agreement with you there that if Judaism is “true” it necessitates every other religion to be “false”.
I agree with Ephraim that proselytizing isn’t necessary, and that anyone can become Jewish with the proper determination. But people should understand that although it is a tradition to discourage conversion, it is a tradition observed by rabbis in a more or less friendly way, and not a general attitude of being mean to potential converts or anything like that. I also think that Jews should not be afraid to argue very publicly that Judaism is true and other religions aren’t. Of course we would need to be very careful to point out that you don’t have to be Jewish — being a noahide is fine. (Jews have never believed that non-Jews are going to hell.
We don’t even believe in a permanent hell; it’s more like purgatory.) This whole idea wouldn’t exactly be prostelytizing. It’s speaking the truth, being intellectually honest and consistent, having chutzpah and pride. Observant Jews pray every day that the whole world will come to believe in our God (that, as dovbear[.blogspot.com] put it, Christianity will disappear), a vision found in the Biblical prophets. We don’t need to wait for Moshiach to bring this about.
I agree with Ephraim that no prostelytizing is necessary, and that anyone can be Jewish with the proper determination. But although it is a tradition to discourage conversion, people should understand that it’s a tradition followed by rabbis in a more or less friendly way, and not a general attitude of being mean to potential converts or anything like that. Also, I think there’s nothing wrong with Jews making very public arguments that Judaism is true and other religions are false. Of course, we have to make it very clear that you don’t have to be Jewish to have a place in the world to come — that being a noachide is fine. That wouldn’t be prostelytizing, exactly. Just spreading the truth, being intellectually honest, being confident, having chutzpah and pride. Observant Jews pray every day that one day the whole world will worship our God (which means, as dovbear(.blogspot.com) put it, that Christianity will disappear). The same vision is described by the prophets. We don’t have to leave it to Moshiach to bring it about.
Um…..Reverend? We don’t do the “eternity of buring in molten magma” thing. I’m pretty sure you guys came up with that one.
But if you want in, where there’s a will, there’s a way, right? No proselytizing necessary, really. If you want to be Jewish and are stubborn, pushy and committed, you will find a way to bash the door down.
After all, refusing to take no for an answer is part of being Jewish. If you’ve got that kind of chutzpah, what, after all, is beyond your grasp?
Calm down, Middle.
I’m outraged at the fact that the first comment you received was “Are you proseltysing?”. I’m guessing that person probably wants Palestine to push Israel into the sea. Listen, if the almighty has graced you with a faith that can save people from horrible deaths and eternal curses, I WANT YOU TO PROSELYTISE TO ME! Even if I hate it at first, I really don’t think I’ll mind retrospectively if you save me from an eternity of burning in molten magma, thank you.
On the next point, since the Torah has clear instances of entire nations converting to Judaism, one thing is clear. Being a Jew has NOTHING to do with your parents and has EVERYTHING to do with who you worship. There is no such thing as a Jewish atheist.
…but I do agree with the last point: come mashiach, come quickly.
Laya,
On the first Shabbat of the month there is a service at B’nai Jeshurun that doesn’t use *any* instruments at all, and it’s really popular with young folks who seem to be, I guess, Modern Orthodox. Very nice to have them there.
At the risk of sounding defensive, which I am not, I might just take issue with the use of the term “more religious” to describe people who can’t get with the keyboard stuff. I submit that the people I daven with are hardcore religious. They, some of them, have made a kind of peace with the keyboard use, is all!
As I said before, many people don’t like that the rabbis are into peace and social justice issues, either, but they keep coming back–despite the keyboard, despite the exhortations to take seriously the words of the prophets. The quality of the worship is powerful.
Having said that, BJ ain’t for everyone, clearly. But personally, the thoughtfulness and the real heartfelt (without being self-conscious) devotion make the other places I’ve been to seem anemic at best. And who wants an anemic shul??
Shira,
I love hearing stories like that. Thank you. I’ve never been to a BJ service myself, but I wonder if the keyboard is absolutely necessary, or if there would be a way to have the same kavana and soul without it, which would make the shul more inclusive for jews of every spectrum. As it is, the keyboard makes it so more religious Jews who might want to see what you all are doing wouldn’t be able to attend, which is a shame.
B’nai Jeshurun does use a keyboard on Shabbat for the morning service–lamentable, perhaps. Controversial, certainly. I know that they did NOT take that decision lightly. Maybe the electricity is reason enough for some people to dismiss the shul, but I think that would be a grave mistake. The place is absolutely overflowing with kavannah and devekut. It’s a serious place.
A group from the shul recently spent a week in Israel, and they held Shabbat services in Tel Aviv, together with a couple hundred members of Israeli groups who are dedicated to deepening their relationship with Judaism–albeit from a non-religious perspective. My shul on Friday nights is so heady and joyful that the roof practically blows off the synagogue, and many of these Israelis had never been to any kind of religious service, and my friend who was there said lots of them had tears in their eyes at the beauty and the spirit of the singing.
After the service, one guy–a tough young man who had been hired as security for the group, approached one of my rabbis and said, “My parents made aliyah when I was just a baby; I’ve lived in Israel all these years, and I’ve always been Israeli, but this is the first time in my life I’ve ever felt like a Jew.”
I tell you, I don’t care about the electricity on Shabbat when experiences like that can be brought about: THAT is what a shul is supposed to do.
Not to dismiss the importance of 20-somethings (we have a couple of them on this blog), but many people do become more spiritual and interested in finding some sort of spiritual space as they become older.
Ah, B’nai Jeshurun; I’m told it’s an interesting place, and that indeed they attract huge crowds for services in two locations. However, they seem to pick and choose certain details when it comes to observance; is it true that they use not only a sound system by also electronic keyboards for Shabbat services? If so, that would seem to place them in the Reform camp, even if they daven from Sim Shalom (Conservative sidur).
I have a great CD of the three BJ rabbis and the cantor singing various “classics”; those folks (three men, one women) really have great voices, and the percussionist plays many different drums quite well. Their version of Hamavdil, with one verse in Ladino, is simple and powerful.
My shul is more “traditional” when it comes to the service; it’s a straight shot through Sim Shalom in Hebrew (prayer for our country in English). Most services are lead my the laity (facing forward) under the able eye of our rabbi; there are dozens of folks that can lead and lein because of his encouragement. We do use a sound system on Shabbat (I lost that battle), but it is turned on before sundown and the microphones are “kosher” condenser units that are not touched by those leining. There is no separate seating available, and therefore no mechitsa; if I had my way, there would be options to suit people that desire such an approach to davening, but that is unlikely to happen these days in a Conservative shul.
On a Shabbat without a b’nai mitsva, the shul will pull in 50-100 people (sometimes more) including many families with children (good youth programs). I think there are just a few 20-somethings, but many 30/40-somethings. Daily minions are another matter; it should be twice as easy to “make the minion” counting women, but it doesn’t seem to always work out that way.
Oh, and that’s out of about 40 or 50 people on an average Saturday morning.
Good idea, taltman. My Conservative shul probably has 5 or 6 people in their 20s on most Saturdays, but that counts people who might be in their early 30s. This Saturday morning I think there were 3 or 4.
i dont think it is right that reform people say the emaot because the didn’t really have a role except cleaning cooking and having babies
Quick poll: How many 20-somethings attend your Conservative shul on Shabbat morning? And how many people show up in general?
I go to Congregation Beth David, Saratoga, CA. There’s ~5 20-somethings, out of ~100 people at shul.
Nathan,
I daven at B’nai Jeshurun in Manhattan. The place is consistently PACKED, not only for Kabbalat Shabbat but also for Shabbat morning services. And yet a goodly number of its members are not in line with our rabbis’ social activism. Before I started davening there, a friend told me, “You would like BJ. I think God lives there.” She was not wrong, in my opinion. There is a deep and true spirit at work in that congregation. Deeply and truly Jewish. The rabbis work very hard to exhort us to be more and more observant and to experience the meaning in being observant, to rejoice in it. They push us hard, and we respond by trying harder. I think that is precisely the way Jewish life should be: Rabbis should push us, and we should do better.
Alot of people—ALOT—at my shul come to services because, even though their political and religio-political ideas don’t mesh with those of my shul’s rabbinate, the kavannah is such that they can’t imaging davening anywhere else. I always thought you had to have absolute social and political consonance with your place of worship in order to feel comfortable praying there, but evidently not.
Do we daven at the same shul? I could have written that description word for word!
-Nathan
laya wrote:
But despite all the changes made to accomodate modernity, most conservative shul parking lots are still all too empty come saturday morning.
At our Conservative shul, this is considered progress, ’cause it means more people are walking 😉
-Nathan
The requirement of a minyan makes no sense if you rely on the arguement that “they have to go back to the dreadful solitude before the creation of Eve when men was talking to G-d by himself”
If the requirement of a minyan is so that they pray with a community then excluding women from being counted as part of the community sounds a little, well, 3rd World…just saying.
For every beautiful and touching story of why things are the way the are in Orthodox tradition, the bottom line comes down to those in power (men) set up laws to keep them empowered, ask any Agunah, she’ll tell you.
It’s threatening if financial obligations can’t be met. Then again, I don’t know whether national organizations have an impact on people’s level of faith or observance. Practice of religion seems to me to be a local affair. Then again, in seeking out synagogues, most people do gravitate to those of a movement because, like at McDonalds, they know what they’re going to get.
Not that I recommend the sucky food at McDonalds. Then again, there was a time when lots of Conservative Jews ate french fries at McDonalds thinking they were kosher. Of course that ended when the company admitted to using beef tallow in its recipe. Ouch.
The mechitzah is a biggie, from what I understand, which is not much about this.
There are men who will not go in, unless there is one.
There are men who will not go in, unless there in not one.
There are women who will not go in … you get the idea.
I like them, personally. What I mean is, I understand that the men need them. It is nobody’s fault they need them. Really, really need them. I know there are men who do not know they need them. That is my opinion, anyway.
My private opinion is that men have to face G-d alone, without the comfort of their wives’ company. Of course it is harder, but that’s the point. They have to go back to the dreadful solitude before the creation of Eve, when Adam was already talking to G-d, by himself.
It said to be totally OK to pray with fellow Jews you do not think well of at all, personally or religiously.
A Jew is a Jew.
Alot of people—ALOT—at my shul come to services because, even though their political and religio-political ideas don’t mesh with those of my shul’s rabbinate, the kavannah is such that they can’t imaging davening anywhere else. I always thought you had to have absolute social and political consonance with your place of worship in order to feel comfortable praying there, but evidently not.
Maybe the labels of the movements just mean less than they used to? Is that a threatening situation to some people? Maybe so.
Okay, that LA Journal article is very telling. Essentially, they describe 3 vibrant, growing young congregations that sound Conservative but aren’t affiliated with the movement. Here’s a description of what one of these congregations’ leaders is considering:
Rabbi Brous, of Ikar, is considering an affiliation with the Conservative movement, now that her spiritual community has defined its own parameters.
“We had to make it clear to our community first who we are and what we are,†said Brous, who can envision her congregants as trailbrazers for a re-invigorated Conservative movement. “I want other communities in the Conservative world to see that it’s possible to be innovative, creative, dynamic — to ask new kinds of questions of Jewish life, to not do things the way they always have been done and work within the Conservative movement.â€
Her evolution of thought is a hopeful one: “Ultimately what I care about is God, Torah, humanity and the Jewish people. The Conservative movement is not an end in its own right. I think the movement is a mechanism to get us there. And I think Ikar has more of a chance of impacting the movement by being in the movement.â€
And the article adds:
In a way, though, the Conservative movement’s crisis applies to all Jewish denominations; they are all forced to confront adapting the traditions of Judaism to modernity. The Orthodox, too, must deal with women’s issues and homosexuality, just as Reform Jews must deal with the yearning for tradition. All of Judaism is seeking to increase membership, combat assimilation and evolve the next generation of leaders.
So wait a minute. Although the movement might be losing people, those people are practicing in ways that are very similar to the movement. Perhaps they want more freedom, or perhaps they are attracted to a particular unaffiliated rabbi (although these rabbis came from that movement). It’s not as if they went off and assimilated and now celebrate Christmas.
I probably don’t have enough experience with the Conservative movement to generalize as much as I have in this post, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!
Ano, clearly you’re newish here. Just because you don’t have experience with something doesn’t mean you can’t criticize it! Has this discussion thus far proved nothing? [/sarcasm]
I have more to say, but can’t right now…busy day.
In the honor of international Orthodox Judaism Brotherhood Week:
“Ooooh, the Mitnagdim, hate the Hassidim,
And the Sephardim, hate the Ashkenazim,
The Modern Orthodox hate the Haredim,
And they all hate C Jews.”
With apologies to Tom Lehr.
This came to mind when reading some people’s posts in this threads which give the impression of the monolithic unity of Orthodox Judaism. Don’t feel bad that they don’t accept the authority of C rabbis, they hardly accept each other’s rabbis, either.
If there is some sort of inter-Orthodox denomination/movement rabbi-acceptance treaty, I’d love to hear more about it.
I think Laya’s point about the divinity of the Torah is really crucial. Most of this discussion has been about practice and not belief. But I imagine few people could be motivated to be completely observant without actually believing in Hashem and his role in the Torah and the divine importance of all mitzvot and so on. My impression is that these beliefs are not widely held among Conservatives, even the rabbis. I wouldn’t go so far as to say most are atheists (as with Reform, where most Rabbis are said to consider themselves atheists.) But “my” Conservative rabbi (I go to a Conservative shul) scoffs at (some of ) the beliefs of the Orthodox (even delivering sermons against them), and seems to have beliefs that are shaped more by Biblical scholarship and archeology than the Torah and Jewish tradition. This is understandable, since I’m sure there’s a lot of good scholarship out there, and since most of the congregation is not going to be particularly supernatural in orientation. But maybe non-Orthodox Jews would have more faith in the traditional precepts of Judaism if the rabbis would try to strengthen people’s faith.
I probably don’t have enough experience with the Conservative movement to generalize as much as I have in this post, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!
by the way, sorry my last comment was so long. I hope I answered your fundamental questions. Forgive me if I can’t spend so much time on this vintage thread. Although it is an interesting debate, at a certain point one can’t help but going in circles.
Oh – and thanks ck. That same quote was also used by the Jewish Journal of Greater LA ( a good article btw, if you have the time). I really didn’t think my comment was so interesting, but apparently it articulates a very real problem that the leaders of the Conservative movement are fortunately trying to address now. Best of luck to them.
laya – you are too modest! Mordy Greenspan, International President of USY adressed the International USY Convention in Philadelphia a few weeks ago. His speech quoted from one of your comments on this very thread, to wit:
Good Evening. Thank all of you for joining me here today.
I would like to begin by reading you an online post that can be found at the website Jewlicious.com.
“I grew up between my local Reform and Conservative shuls. I went to Sunday school at the Conservative one. No one in my class returned to that place after our bar or bat Mitzvahs if we were given the choice.
They failed to instill in us any sense of passion or joy about being Jewish. They failed to instill a sense of community between the members, or relevance to the real world in the stuff we were learning. In fact, I barely remember what they taught us. If Conservative Judaism worked, I really might not have had such a problem with it. But I know my experience isn’t unique, and the Conservative movement keeps losing numbers for a reason.”
Over the last two decades the Conservative Movement has been losing members in droves. We went from claiming 40% of American Jewish households in 1990 to 33% in 2000. The same survey also found that nearly half of all adult Jews who were raised Conservative no longer consider themselves to be Conservative.
It would seem that Conservative Judaism is in trouble, that its future uncertain. With the success of Chabad on college campuses, the Conservative Movements presence is continuing to falter. Talking with my friends, the majority of who are active in Jewish life at their respective colleges, there is not an active Conservative option at the majority of colleges.
Thanks Esther for the heads up. There’s more of the speech and if anyone wants it, request it using the contact us page and we’ll send it to you.
nathan – the quote you attributed to me was actually said by ck, but I did mention your over generalization. Honest mistake.
middle –
For sure some people feel very threatened and will stifle any voice that would make them question their world view. While haredim may be the most easy to spot members of the greater O.J.community, I do not feel they are representative.
I remember how a lot of the great philosophy of Conservative Judaism reminded me of college brochures that describe what the school is like, the excellence they strive for and the values they uphold. But once on campus, dealing with the day to day realities, your actual experience has little to do with the abstract way the school was sold.
Similarly, for all the beauty in its philosophy, we both know that there is a large gap between what the conservative movement teaches and what most of its adherents practice.
Say what you want about my statements, but I know you also got that email from Esther about how a few weeks ago, at the International USY Convention met in Philadelphia, Mordy Greenspan, the president of USY opened with my statement in this comment thread that the Conservative movement ” failed to instill in us any sense of passion or joy about being Jewish. They failed to instill a sense of community between the members, or relevance to the real world in the stuff we were learning. In fact, I barely remember what they taught us. If Conservative Judaism worked, I really might not have had such a problem with it. But I know my experience isn’t unique, and the Conservative movement keeps losing numbers for a reason.”
He went on to talk about the truth of that statement and what they needed to do about it. Clearly I am not off my rocker.
If conservative Judaism on a practical day to day level provided a strong sense of community, a commitment to torah and mitzvot, a spiritual path, joy and inspiration, I would most likely still be conservative. But despite all the changes made to accomodate modernity, most conservative shul parking lots are still all too empty come saturday morning.
The ability to instill in its adherents a compelling reason to practice what it preaches is the largest practical difference. I know there are really frum conservative Jews out there, I’ve met a few, but unfortunately, they are generally the exception that proves the rule.
The major theological difference of course is in the divinity of Torah. Maybe the two have something to do with each other. Maybe humans need a divine imperative to practice, rather than simply an intellectual agreement about the goodness of Torah.
You basically ask if orthodoxy is changing, then why is it any different than conservative Judaism?
But lets just get something straight: Just because two movements change do not mean they change in the same way. Just because one movement might change with more ease or frequency does not mean the other movement is not changing at all. It would be absurd to assume that because two things change there is no qualitative difference in the nature of their individual changing. Not all changes are created equally.
Orthodox Judaism does indeed “lock certain traditions in place,” certain traditions should stay put. I don’t have a problem with that. If you change all your traditions, they cease to be traditions, don’t they? Some traditions can go up for review while other ones, if changed, change the very essence of the faith.
For example, just because a movement feels comfortable exploring new roles for women does not mean it should necessarily feel comfortable compromising what they feel is the sanctity of shabbat. The issue of shabbat is a deal breaker for many, including myself.
It would be beneficial to not paint the defining feature of orthodoxy as a refusal to change. The real differences are in the divintiy of Torah, and the general observance and commitment levels of the members.
I hope that more or less answers you.
unknown – I haven’t read the book
shira – You’ve got a nice open mind there. Keep it up.
BTW, my wife was the one that arranged for Nosson Slifkin to speak in this area on his last “tour”. Over half of the audience was from our Conservative shul. Slifkin is a good speaker, but is an even better zoo tour guide. The Bronx zoo will never be the same to me after seeing it though his eyes. If you have the chance to take one of his tours, run, don’t walk to attend.
laya said:
Nathan’s point is a gross overgeneralization that lumps all observant Jews into the Chassidic camp.
Quite the opposite – and your choice of words above shows the misunderstanding. My claim is, in fact, that “observant Jews” can in fact (also) daven at Conservative shuls. My note of the streimel (sp?) was to offer a stark visual proof of the problems with stuck-in-time views of “observance”. BTW, I have a friend that wears one of those hats.
ck said:
As a movement, no one can deny the fact that Conservative Judaism is floundering and is beset by institutional self-doubt amongst its leadership and general apathy amongst the bulk of its membership.
Replace “Conservative” with “Modern Orthodoxy” or “Reform” and the statement works as well. As I’ve previously written, I’m no shill for the Conservative Movement. I think more than half of it needs to be shed, as they are really Reform Jews, and should therefore be more honest about their practices and join Reform shuls. My family lives in the space between the lines of the Conservative Movement and “Orthodoxy”; the observance level is largely orthodox, but the intellectual freedom is purely Conservative. Unfortunately, critical thinking is seen as a threat to faith and is not a generally accepted part of most of today’s “Orthodoxy”.
ck also said:
Halacha certainly seems “frozen†but only from an uninformed perspective. There’s a difference between frozen and metodical. From a larger historical perspective “Orthodox†Judaism is and has always been in a constant state of flux. The fact that the Orthodox don’t hop onto the bandwagon of every modern trend and development does not mean that they do not take these into account. Also you need to stop thinking of the Orthodox as monolithic.
The “flux” mostly halted 500 years ago per my previous post; you may need to study some history to understand why things went crazy back then, but rest assured, halachic development has largely stopped in Orthodoxy – unless you consider adding more and more chumroth and other restrictions “development”. Can one claim forward progress because Modern Orthodox American Jews will now drink milk that wasn’t observed in the milking process by a rabbi? How about getting rid of the dated (and widely ignored) gezaroth from those right-wing good-old-boys at Beth Shammai than require “kosher wine”, “kosher cheese” (an observant Jew must drop in the rennet), “kosher salted fish”, “pat Yisrael”, “bishul Yisrael”, etc. That would be development that would enable far more Jews to keep kosher without the hassles imposed by those “fences”.
My perspective, while perhaps “uninformed”, is based upon a sampling over ten years of a wide variety of Jewish groups, ranging from Chabad to Reform shuls. My family has davened at and has friends at almost every shul in this small city, including the “Modern Orthodox”, “Yeshiva Orthodox”, “Chabad Orthodox”, “Misnagdic Orthodox”, “Old World Chassids Mixed with Misnagdim Orthodox”, etc. My current teacher is an Orthodox rabbi that is a well-educated scholar of both sacred texts, secular history, liberal arts, is a social activist and a gentleman to boot. Sadly, there aren’t many Orthodox rabbis like him around these days.
He is trying hard to cure me of the ignorance ck believes I suffer by having me study Mishna/Tosefta/Gemara(both)/Comentaries as well as classic JTS texts. I’m sure ck has already worked through all that stuff, but I’ll just have to catch up if I can.
I note with interest Esther’s mention of a liberal Orthodox minion she had been attending. My family recently went to (what I assume is) a similar minion at a local university that is based upon the Shira hadahsa “model”. There was separate seating and a low-ish mechitsa. Women participated in psukei d’zimra and the Torah service; men were required to “make” the minion. There was great ruach and kevana. Half of the minion, BTW, was composed of Conservative guys that take their religion seriously and wanted to support the group. I hope we’ll see more of these minionim, and soon.
Constraints or discipline or limitations are part of religious practice, and some people feel their “constraints†differently than others do–they feel them as *liberty*. I look at a woman who attends a shul where she can’t have an aliyah or read from the Torah and I think, “If I were her, I would feel limited,†but she may feel free in a way that I can’t understand. I don’t know what she feels. But I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and respect her. She is not me. I pray that she feels liberated and expressive where she is, and I pray to be able to feel and express all the liberation that God visits on me, be it through halakha or whatever means.
Laya!! Laya!! Is this book accurate in your opinion?:)
My point in showing the article is not that you have a monolith. It’s that some people feel very threatened by change and will take some fairly aggressive actions in an attempt to stop it. In the end, he had to go to Gil Student’s publishing house to get his next title published.
Read that article you linked to, great story. But I don’t know why you thought I would be threatened by it. It actually perfectly illustrates some of the things I have said several times in the past
1) there is a very wide range of belief within what is broadly defined as “orthodoxy”
2) Ultra Orthodox (like those in bnei brak, for instance) are in many ways fundamentally different from the rest of orthodoxy and we should not use the simple term “orthodox” to include them both, as it is generally misleading.
But in any case, nice read. Thanks for the link.
It may come off sounding that way to you, but that doesn’t mean it is that way.
But the question is simple, Laya, in this discussion and in others, both you and ck have commented that Conservative Judaism as well as other forms undermine tradition. It has been voiced in different ways, and has been done fairly honestly. However, my question to you, if you re-read this post and how some leading scholars define the Conservative movement, is how exactly is it different than Orthodox if Orthodox is also changing. If Orthodox is not a movement that is focused on a particular sensibility that locks certain traditions in place, then it is changing these traditions. It must be doing so with respect to halachic authority, which is what Conservatives are doing. So how is it different?
Do you think it’s possible for you to respond without talking about me again? If it is, and if you consider the question carefully, you’ll see that it’s not an attack but a very meaningful and substantive question. How are the changes that Conservative Judaism has pursued, within the confines of Jewish tradition, different than changes that may be taking place in the corners of the Orthodox world you describe?
nah, didn’t get a chance to look at that link yet. Too busy finding Sarah Silverman’s bit on the aristocrats. In any case, I didn’t mean to be insulting, I apologize if I was. I was merely trying to get you to open your mind a little to the potential validity of a more traditional way of life, and the understanding that halacha can and does change outside the conservative movement.
That of course, does not mean that they can or should necessarily change according to what you may want or think makes sense.
I don’t feel threatened or attacked, but I do feel frustrated at going over this time and again with no apparent greater understanding.
You seem to continue to think that “orthodox” is synonymous with “unchanging” and imply that once orthodox Judaism changes any custom or halacha it becomes conservative judaism, but this is patently false. You imply that since I can be ok with women reading torah, I should really consider myself conservative, but it just doesn’t follow.
I’m glad to hear you say that By the way, just because I fit into certain boxes, that does not force me to think of other boxes as inferior. But perhaps you should be aware that sometimes the way you talk about more traditional forms of judaism comes off badly, like you are painting them to be outmoded, callus, closed minded, unchanging at all costs, backwards, and well, just plain wrong. That attitude doesn’t seem to be so accepting and flexible. It’s possible that some of your preconceptions about orthodoxy aren’t or are no longer so accurate.
I’m not sure, somebody made a new comment and it brought us back to the discussion. It’s not as if these issues have gone away in the past 6 months.
I’m also not quite sure how we got to the insults in the last comment, but perhaps you feel under attack. It’s not always an attack when somebody asks pertinent questions, even if the answers are uncomfortable to give. Was it the article link that got you all defensive, or was it that I asked how Orthodoxy differs from Conservative Judaism if you make changes to millenia-old customs?
Either way, I disagree with your assertions about what I consider valid or invalid, better or worse, right or wrong or any other such claim.
As I noted above in my comment to Esther, it seems to me that part of the problem is that there are all kinds of boxes that we’ve created, and people don’t always fit. I am far more interested in figuring out how people can fit into the big box of Judaism than to worry about whether one of the little boxes it contains is somehow superior to another.
By the way, just because I fit into certain boxes, that does not force me to think of other boxes as inferior. I can also disagree with certain aspects of other boxes’ contents without thinking of mine as better, although I may perceive aspects of my boxes to be better for me or the society around me. If anything, I am extremely accepting and flexible, which is ironic in light of the accusations made in your last comment.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. So much for the notion that Halacha is “frozen.”
middle,
Orthodoxy is not defined by an unwillingness to change, anymore than a willingness to change defines Conservative Judaism. That would be quite the unenlightened perspective.
You seem very sure and confident about the correctness of your way of life and belief system. Yet you often disparage other individuals or groups who are equally confident in their way of life and belief system, seemingly because they do not believe the way you do.
There seems to be something a little closed minded in that approach. Is it really fair to ask others to validate your lifestyle while you insult theirs? If one’s approach is that conservative Judaism is the answer for most or all Jews, wouldn’t that person be just as narrow minded as certain sects of orthodox Judaism who also act as if theirs is the one right way?
We have covered in these pages the announcement of froi gras to be unkosher. We have talked about an orthodox women’s yeshiva which implied that in the future, they will be ordaining women rabbis. There are two ortho shuls I know of where women can read from the Torah, and one that requires a minyan of men and of women before services begin. But like I said, no matter what we say, your view on this subject seem to be more absolute and unchanging than the “unchanging” halacha you criticize. It just seems a little ironic that your modern and progressive world view does not seem to allow for the validity of a lifestyle and belief system more religious or traditional than your own.
Now, what the hell are we doing back on this post?
Well, because we’re changing the world here.
I guess we’re a bit backward here in North America because I haven’t seen an Orthodox synagogue in any of the four cities where I’ve attended services where I’ve even seen a woman anywhere but behind a mechitza, and certainly not leading any part of the services or ceremonies. But if these changes are already with us in Israel, then that’s wonderful. So if you are willing to change millenia-old traditions, tell me again how you are different from Conservative Jews?
By the way, here is an interesting article that raises some disturbing questions.
I could get one already, in one of a couple orthodox shuls I know. But it’s not my thing. I don’t really understand why it would be to your credit if I did, but it’s cool. I know you mean well.
Laya, you’ll thank me when you get your first aliyah. 😉
You know, the irony of this is that despite whatever we say, the middle’s view that halacha is absolute and unchanging is actually more absolute and unchanging than halacha itself.
Esther, I think you bring up an interesting and worthwhile issue: the relevance of movements in today’s Judaism. We need to post about this some time soon. Having movements with their own rules and platforms makes sense on a macro level, but at the end of the day we are in a world where people choose for themselves. The absurdity, for example, of dictating to somebody who was born to a Jewish father and who lives as a Jew that they are are not Jewish is probably not going to have any real impact on these individuals; they will practice as Jews anyway. Their practice will revolve around their beliefs.
ck, what you want is to have your cake and eat it too. You want to say that the only way to fulfill one’s obligations as a Jew is to live as an Orthodox Jew. An Orthodox Jew, in your view, observes halacha and lives by it as if it is the equal (and in some ways, greater) of the torah. When somebody mentions that they had no cars 2000 years ago, you pooh pooh the notion that driving on shabbat is acceptable because halacha forbids it. When somebody says that they practice Judaism as you do but weren’t converted by a rabbi of the Orthodox movement, they are not Jewish in your view because that rabbi does not follow halacha as if it were this edifice frozen in time a long time ago. You believe that women are the equals of men, and yet you would not count a woman in a minyan or let her read from the torah. Perhaps 2000 years ago, women played a different role in society, but in an age when women represent the majority of students in graduate programs across North America, are you suggesting that halacha isn’t preventing the Orthodox – even the Modern Orthodox who are able to reconcile aspect of modern life with tradition – from seeing what is plain and obvious?
So what if there are different types of Orthodox Jews if the range is still constricted by the frozen halachic norms of a world far from ours in time, culture and location?
That is the question.
From my perpective, by the way, this isn’t an attack on you, Laya or anybody who is Orthodox. This is a discussion where the Conservative movement came under withering attack on the basis of their being a movement that is willing to continue the once-obvious practice of evaluating and re-interpreting halacha. They offer a true alternative to Orthodoxy, and one that many Jews find is far closer to their belief system than Orthodoxy offers.
Hey, isn’t the vatican gonna eliminate purgatory?
For the last year or so, I’ve maintained that the current denominational labels don’t accurately describe contemporary observance. You have “observant” Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews, and although their ideologies may be different, their item-by-item observance may be strikingly similar. (I recognize that this is mostly true in major cities with bigger Jewish populations.)
But even within the Orthodox movement alone, there are indeed a range of observances. But if you asked the National Council of Young Israel, many of those people (anyone who considers him or herself Modern Orthodox) would not be considered Orthodox. If you asked the Orthodox Union, many of those people (the people who affiliate with Edah or other more liberal forms of Orthodoxy) would not be considered Orthodox. So who is the ultimate decisor of who is in what movement if the observance is not constant? Is it the ideology (not kosher and egal= Reform; mostly kosher and mostly egal=Conservative; Glatt and non-egal=Orthodox?) or the affiliation/membership dues (I belong to a ______ shul, therefore I am part of the ______ movement)?
I think we all agree that there’s a range of observances within the movements. Halakhah may not be a frozen monolith in Orthodoxy, but according to the definition accepted by the rank and file (although not necessarily happily) does restrict the extent to which (for example) women can be involved in Jewish life. To some people, that’s an acceptable limitation. To others, it’s a straw that breaks the back of the metaphorical camel. Orthodox Judaism is making strides toward expanding roles for women within the bounds of halakhah, yes. And I do agree that I think the “driving teshuvah” of the Conservative Movement, while seemingly necessary, was a tactical error. So neither of these communities is really my own right now.
I’ve started going to a minyan that has separate seating, but more equal participation. There, I find other people like me, who are dancing on the line between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism, and that’s going to have to do for now. Maybe I’m lucky, in that if I had to for the sake of my currently non-existent husband/children, I would find a way to feel comfortable in either environment. Or maybe I’m cursed, and this is the purgatory of non-belonging.
Halacha certainly seems “frozen” but only from an uninformed perspective. There’s a difference between frozen and metodical. From a larger historical perspective “Orthodox” Judaism is and has always been in a constant state of flux. The fact that the Orthodox don’t hop onto the bandwagon of every modern trend and development does not mean that they do not take these into account. Also you need to stop thinking of the Orthodox as monolithic.
Certainly amongst certain Haredi sects the trend is often towards the adoption of more and more humras, stricter practices, meant not so much to accomodate modernity, but rather to check its influences. However, this trend does not apply to all who identify with Orthodoxy! There are many within Orthodoxy, particularly modern Orthodoxy who seek to strike a balance between secular society at large and the maintenance of a lifestyle that respects and is deferential to Torah Judaism. Yes – such a thing is possible. Focusing on the extremes of fundamentalist, Haredi Judaism does not advance the reality of the situation on ground. Yeah, maybe it makes Conservative and Reform Judaism seem like the only option for intelligent, modern, free thinking individuals, but that notion is simply not true. For the rank and file who identify with Orthodoxy, Halachah is anything but frozen and monolithic. Has the point been suitably addressed or will I have to hear more uninformed cracks about fur hats and a 6000 year old world?
Now pardon me whilst I curl my payes, fluff my shtreimel, cancel my Internet service and rid my household of all media that makes reference to the myth of dinosaurs.
Mmmmm, but you also evaded his point.
Halacha. Non-changing.
Nathan’s point is a gross overgeneralization that lumps all observant Jews into the Chassidic camp. I have severe ideological issues with Hassidim, but I still respect the way of life they have chosen. They wish to preserve and protect their way of life and refuse to allow non-Torah influences to steer the course of their practice and development. Orthodox Judaism is not a monolith and it contains many variants, most of whom do not require the wearing of fur hats ever.
And please, if you’re going to debate stop using that technique of “I know some really observant Conservatve Jews.” Look, I know Orthodox Jews who are total shits – does that mean alll of Orthodoxy is shit? Similarly, pointing out individual Conservative Jews who are stellar means bupkis. Talk about the movement in general!
As a movement, no one can deny the fact that Conservative Judaism is floundering and is beset by institutional self-doubt amongst its leadership and general apathy amongst the bulk of its membership.
Laya, you evaded the point.
Way to totally over generalize about the “orthodox” there Nathan. Excuse me, I need to go find my shtriemel and relocate my backwards ways now.
There are rules, which Orthodox Jews believe are a matter of G-d’s will, as passed down through Torah, oral Torah, and the masorah of am Yisrael (the traditions of the nation of Israel). Orthodoxy does not allow for these to be ‘changed’ or ‘re-interpreted’ but merely to be applied to new times and situations, which sometimes requires careful thought and discussion and seemingly ‘new’ rulings based on thousands of years of legal precident, based on a complex constitutional document written by the creator of the universe (by whatever method, and yes there are differences on that WITHIN Orthodox circles)
The money quote is, “Orthodoxy does not allow for these to be ‘changed’”. That is exactly correct, which is why Orthodoxy cannot claim to take the historically acurate approach to Halacha. The Halacha always changed – always changes – and must continue to always change. It represents and reflects the dynamic tension between the bedrock of the past and the present needs of the people. Unfortunately, the shadow of the expultion from Spain and the debacle of the false messiah Sabbatai Tsvi had a profound impact which, among other things, largely froze the Halachic process and began a movement of cultural and religious entrenchment that has continued to this day. How else can a rational person explain people that wear big fur hats in the middle of the summer? For them, time is frozen in the cold Polish winter some 300-400 years ago.
I assure you, there are Jews that daven in Conservative shuls that are shomer Shabbath, shomer kashruth, and take the yoke of Torah quite seriously. They also know the world isn’t less than 6,000 years old, that the Torah we have today is a redacted (by R. Ezra) document, and that those things don’t change the fact that you still need to help make the minion every day. Really.
Funny, I was at dinner the other night with a well respected member of the Conservative community in my town. He had recently been the president of the second largest Conservative congregation in town. He commented that the greatest challenge for them was that they were perceived as being in “the middle” and that people tended to seek one of the “extremes” of either Orthodoxy or Reform.
Of course, as he was saying that, I was watching his family on a Friday night and it was a joy to behold. It was a lovely combination of faith, culture and custom that related perfectly to how one can reconcile deep faith with the modern world. It was inspiring.
The past President of the youth wing of conservative Judaism movement, and an attendant at their ‘Jewish Theological Seminary,’ is at my orthodox yeshiva in Jerusalem.
Well, gone from here maybe. I’m glad that all this is still read by someone! Anyhow, you can continue to follow the adventures of barefoot jewess by clicking here. Esther also comments there too from time to time.
And I thought this discussion was long over, too. But Eitan, we’ve got tons of great posts here, so stick around and feel free to keep on commenting. We encourage dialogue…um, most of the time.
Eitan, I’m afraid Barefoot Jewess is long-gone.
Just came upon this and was enthralled by the discussion here. I wanted to explain what the issue with non-Orthodox conversions is. The problem is not that you are not necessarily a holy Jewish soul waiting to be recognized as such, but that I have no way of knowing whether or not you are. Since, as has been pointed out here, there is vast variation between various Conservative shuls, rabbis, etc., and no strict standards for what can be considered a kosher Conservative conversion, there is no way for me to know what it means! Even if you tell me what happened, I would rely, for such a vastly important issue, on an authority whom I trust, whom I know hold certain standards which I can agree with.
Further, I think of Judaism much more as a family than as a religion (‘religion’ in most modern usage was basically a term made up by Christian theologians in universities for metaphysical beliefs other than their own, that is beliefs they thought were wrong, and the word ‘religion’ still, often, carries this negative connotation). Unlike Christianity, or Islam, of Hindutva, or Buddhism, etc, one does not become a Jew simply by believing certain things. There are rules, which Orthodox Jews believe are a matter of G-d’s will, as passed down through Torah, oral Torah, and the masorah of am Yisrael (the traditions of the nation of Israel). Orthodoxy does not allow for these to be ‘changed’ or ‘re-interpreted’ but merely to be applied to new times and situations, which sometimes requires careful thought and discussion and seemingly ‘new’ rulings based on thousands of years of legal precident, based on a complex constitutional document written by the creator of the universe (by whatever method, and yes there are differences on that WITHIN Orthodox circles). In that we are given laws for who is Jewish, and we are not free to equivocate on them based on how we happen to feel, or on the prevailing ideology of the time. Early Christians claimed that anyone who accepted Jesus became a Jew, entitled to the same rights and priveleges in this world and the next as any other Jew, regardless of whether they kept the mitzvot. They did this in the name of a universalist faith of salvation in Jesus. Today many try to say that we have to accept anyone who ‘says’ or ‘feels’ they are Jewish because we are an individual, humanism based society (at least in certain, usually relatively liberal circles) which thinks people have a ‘right’ to define themselves however they choose. Not so according to Orthodox Judaism, which says that we have an actual definition, which does not change over time, which was given by G-d (in the Talmud, primarily), and which we would be DEFYING GOD if we were to change.
I’m sorry that you feel hurt. But I make no apologies for my belief in G-d and his Torah. I believe that there is a higher power than humanity, and that this higher power would be extremely disapointed in me if I considered you Jewish. More importantly, it is not up to me to decide. The Torah is the Torah, and any attempt to change ultimate-truth is a lie by definition. I respect you as a human being and as a Judeophile, and if you are truly so observant that I should have no problem with considering you a Jew, I hope you will have an Orthodox conversion so that your light may shine with the gedolei yisrael, as a light of zion, and with no questions as to your legitimacy as a Jew.
Sorry this is out order, but I thought of a further analogy. Though your children are your children no matter what they do, you get to have standards for who you let join your family from the outside. Changing your last name to the same as mine does not make you my brother/sister/father/mother or, for that matter, my friend, unless changing your name is the criteria I lay down for membership.
I’m sorry if this seems hurtful. I would also like to object to your usage of the term ‘bigot’ in reference to CK (whom I do not know). Disagreeing with someones ideology or not accepting their self identification is hardly bigotry, and not wanting to marry them because of it even less so.
I look forward to your response.
—
B’shalom,
-Eitan
On Rasta: Don Carlos sings “Obeah to dem that slave Jah People!”
and Dr Alimantado sings “Ital is Vital and Vital is Ital”
Seen! 😉
/Rascal Kosher inna Sweden!
Is someone able to translate Jorge’s comment?
Luego de leer este interesante artículo, ¡como gustaría que nuestra kehilá chilena, masortí por definición mayoritaria, aplicara en su quehacer diario, en lo cotidiano, estas 7 premisas de modo integral, entusiasta y masivo.
En ocasiones pareciera, que se queda entrampada en tabues y prejuicios que son aprovechados por aquellos agoreros y pescaores de espíritus más cándidos y avidos de protección espiritual, llevando a nuestros miembros por senderos qeu nos alejan de la busqueda de la fraternidad y tolerancia y la lucha por la coexistencia con la “otraedad”. Nos falta leer a rosenzweig, Kaplan y W. Benjamin… También nos hace falta estudiar y discutir Torá.
Saludos desde un Chile “endiesochado” (por el 18 de septiembre, día de la indep. nacional) para los lectores de jewlicious.
Jorge
Judism is cool!
Nevermind – wouldn’t be any fun that way.
Life ain’t perfect. Out of the nearly 100 billion current and former residents of Planet Earth, I seriously doubt that even one of them had a perfect life. No perfect lives, no perfect families, no perfect Shuls, no perfect “movements”. The Conservatives have their problems, as do the Orthodox, Christians, Athiests, Secularists, Scientists, and everything/everybody else. I think thats the way its supposed to be. Perfection seems boring. Why cant everyone stop bickering about this problem and that and just accept the post for what it is (I think)- a nice presentation of the Philosophy of conservative Judaism.
for the record, and maybe to de-bullshit it a bit, I am friends with not one but two people here in Israel who got orthodox conversions ubber-quick. They had both been living halacha abiding, mitzvot loving shomer shabbat and kashrut lives within a community that did the same and had people, like rabbis, who knew them and could vouch for that. One of them, who was raised Jewish and secular found out after already having become a baalei tshuva that his mom’s conversion was fishy at best and converted himself after one meeting with the beit din. One. No exaggeration. He was already living the life, knew what it entailed and the beit din presumably saw that he had the knowledge and commitment and he went to the mikveh the next day.
And yeah, as for the rest of it, it is so off base and just flat out angry, that there doesnt seem to be much point getting into the frays of it. But perhaps I should direct you to ck’s other judaism.
I am not arguing pedigree. I warmly accept as fully Jewish anyone who converts to Judaism. That’s the law you know – denying the Jewishness of a duly converted convert is a huge sin. There isn’t even a moment’s hesitation. My last girlfriend was a convert and her conversion was never, ever an issue between us. She did a hard core Orthodox conversion. It took her 5 months.
As to the rest of your comment, I will not respond in kind. I understand the pain that occasioned your sentiment. I’ve read through both your and liora’s blogs. I see that you are both trying to the best of your abilities to lead Jewish lives, that Judaism is important to you and that it defines who you are.
I really do not want to cause you pain. Most Conservative converts simply accept it as fact that the Orthodox will not accept them. For me to accept your conversion would mean that I could no longer consider myself aligned with Orthodoxy in that I have accepted the authority of a beit din composed of Rabbis who, for instance, think it’s ok to violate the Sabbath by driving to shul.
See it has little to do with you personally. I have nothing at all against you and, like I said, I find your level of commitment admirable. I don’t even have anything against your Rabbis. I just cannot accept their authority at all. Doing that would negate ALL my beliefs.
And lets face it, that’s what you’re asking me to do. You’re trying to bully me into denying and abandoning my beliefs. And where would that get you if you were successful? You would still not get the approval of Orthodox Jews because I would no longer be an Orthodox Jew. Like I am such a poster child for Orthodoxy anyway!
So call me whatever you like. I only pray that you find peace and I wish you well.
Barefoot, he’s been taken to task by you and by me. At the end of the day, he is simply a voice that reflects the mainstream view of virtually all Orthodox Jews and almost all Sephardi Jews. It’s sad and infuriating, but he is toeing the party line. Unlike most of his Orthodox brethern, however, ck does seek to reach out to as many Jews as he can and engage them in dialogue about Judaism to the best of his ability. That is a material good that he does.
I defend him, despite my deep disagreements with him about this topic, because I think that just as one cannot rationally explain faith, challenging ck to rationally explain why his faith commands him to act a certain way with respect to those who don’t meet the standards set by his faith, can ultimately only get him to consider and perhaps reconsider his position. What it can’t do, however, is make him change views that are faith based.
I repeat to you again that for the vast majority of Jews, you are a Jew. Just like I’m not going to be able to convince an Orthodox Jew to eat chicken with cheese despite the absence of any logical reason for this meal to be avoided, you are not going to be able to change the monolith of Orthodox Judaism with respect to conversion.
And I am glad ck is taking kids on Birthright. I can’t think of too many people who would do it half as well.
On other thng, ck,
Your views are so elitist, and so much about pedigree and have nothing to do with service to G-d, devotion, religion. Views like yours cause suffering for ALL Jews. You think that all of us are not affected by this? You think it’s us v you? Think again.
I could tell you simply that if you know that your “conversion was absolutely kosher by Torah standards†then it ought not be a problem to find 3 Orthodox Rabbis to confirm that.
ck, that is such utter bullshit. Converts can go thru all the processes, Beit Din and mikvah and a long time of study and growing observance, which fits with “Torah standards” (and I challenge you to list them without invoking halacha, given what you said, literally) but it is O rabbis who have decided that other rabbis are suspect- they may not be shomer mitzvot. According to O halachic standards. It’s all about a group’s interpretation of halacha. And O choose not to acknowledge the legitimacy of rabbis other than O. So spare me and everyone the disingenuous crap. And who gives a flying leap if you deign to invite someone over for Shabbat or deign to hang out with them. Your incredible lack of tact is astonishing.
You think that “telling it like it is” is a sign of respect? Get thee to a mussar shiur (class).
Your words are not “honest”. They are inhumane.
You don’t sound shrill, oh no. You sound like those fundamentalists that you deny in yourself.
Yeah, I’m pissed. Liora showed her feelings, and you, like a totally insensitive ass, tread all over them to score a point about you. I know what she went through. And you my friend, even if you are privileged to be born a Jew, use it to show such arrogance, elitism and bigotry, which no one on this blog is willing to point out- that you shame the name of G-d.
Yeah, I’m totally pissed.
Liora, hon, you’re on the wrong blog. You deserve so much better.
ck,
So you want me to give all that up or else risk being branded a fundamentalist or a reactionary or a bigot? And my response to you is always “do whatever you feel is right.â€
Now please, tell me. Who is being narrow minded and fundamentalist?
That isn’t even logical. Don’t try to offput your own crap on someone else by turning the tables. Why is no one taking this man to task? Honest to G-d, where is your conscience, where are your balls? Just the simple fact that he treats a convert in this way should raise your voices and many red flags. You all talk such a good game, but when it comes to a challenge, you all just fade away. ck’s views are bigoted. He’s arguing pedigree. And his approach is so totally dishonest and truly mean-spirited.
judi, right on.
ck, bottom line, it doesn’t matter how warm and welcoming you are. You would do that with anyone. You dissemble, and hedge, because what you will not say is, “You’re not a Jew, , but I will treat you like I do anyone else and you will also never know that if push came to shove, I would not marry you or have my children marry you.” It doesn’t make your views any less bigoted because you are nice about it.
And you’re leading birthright groups. Honestly, is everyone taking crazy pills?
Just to clarify things, Conservative Judaism may have had its origins meshed together with the Reform movement, but the reasons for that are a little surprising. Back in Germany in the late 1800’s, Zacharias Frankel rejected the popular Reform movement over the issue of not keeping Hebrew in the liturgy. He went on to found his own school in Breslau; he called his philosophy of religion “Historical Judaism”, but it was not a “movement”, just a school of thought. BTW, it looked a lot like our own Modern Orthodoxy.
Cut to the U.S., approximately 1880. Reform Judaism had taken hold- according to some statistics, over 90% of American congregations were Reform (although it isn’t clear whether little neighborhood shtiebels were flying under that survey’s radar). Along came a new wave of Eastern European immigrants, and the Reform movement didn’t want ’em. Neither did most of the Orthodox groups, which tended to be very insular and not generally open to new members.
So the wealthy Reform leaders did the obvious thing, in the interest of helping their fellow Jews and keeping their ragged long beards and uneducated women out of their clean, shiny Temples: tehy bought them a new movement.
Now, these guys had no cars, so they didn’t just start out driving to shul. And they were, for all intents and purposes, Orthodox, so they didn’t usually even try to light the stove on Shabbos. Their shuls usuallly started out with mechitzas, although they tnded to go by the wayside as time went on, but the liturgy was pretty standard Orthodox.
And then things started changing. The movement became an actual movement, not just a catch-all for Jews nobody else wanted, and it grew its own Rabbis and leaders. I won’t go into it here, but they attempted to use the halachic process to keep up with the secular world’s progress (considered a valid process throughout Jewish history, BTW) and made a few unfortunate decisions in the mid-20th century that led to the formation of the UTJ, the Union of Traditional Judaism, where JTS’ leading talmudist, David Weiss Halivni, defected in the 1980’s over the JTS’ decision to ordain women.
In the meantime, to be fair, let’s also recognize that American Orthodox Judaism wasn’t always in the same form we see today. Many Orthodox congregations , those that sought to separate themselves from what they perceived as insular, dowdy and backwards communities, existed in forms similar to Conservative shuls in the mid 20th century. If you look at photos taken in the 1950’s, you see lots of elegant functions with women dancing with men and women wearing the (sleeveless) fashions of the day. Not a single sheitl or head covering in sight. In fact, it was common for “Orthodox” and “Conservative” synogogues in the 50’s and 60’s to merge back and forth with each other’s congregations because in reality, there wasn’t much difference in practice.
There is a small but growing serious Conservative movement that seeks to bring back the serious scholarship, daily practice and commitment to halacha that seems to have gone away. The people who are leading the way tend to be ones who’d be comfortable in any Orthodox shul, but are put off by the shift to the right that’s taken place over the past 30 years or so. And that’s where I am at the moment. I can’t honestly say that all Conservative shuls are like mine- I wish they were, though. I’m also quite dissatisfied with the current liberal state of JTS- I’m hoping things turn around with the new chancellor but I’m not stupid enough to hold my breath.
That’s all- I’ve got to get to work.
Sorry Liora, I’m not Orthodox or even close to Orthodox practice.
Liora seriously, give it a rest. Read what I have written again. And you keep saying that you don’t care what I or fundamentalists like me think and yet you keep harping on the same point over and over. You keep putting words into my mouth and frankly, please don’t take offense, you’re being VERY ignorant. This site is not just me and even if I were to advocate eating children, I’d just be one voice amongst several, most of whome are not Orthodox. Please pay attention to what Elon has written – he is in much the same boat as you, a convert who took the Conservative route. And yet he had to step in with an “Oy Vey” no less because you are begining to sound (in my opinion, I don’t speak for Elon) shrill.
I am not going to once again rehash everything I’ve said. It’s now part of the permanent record. I can assure you also that if we ever met in RL you’d find that I would be just as nice to you as anyone else.
I am respectful in that I do not sugar coat the facts. I could not marry anyone converted by a Conservative Rabbi because my own Rabbis would not perform the ceremony. A Conservative convert could not count in one of our minyans. Please ask any of your otherwise respectful Orthodox aquaintances if they would have a problem marrying a Conservative convert. See what they say.
Having said all that, I am not completely oblivious to you. For instance, if you were between the ages of 18-26 and wanted to go on our Jewlicious birthright israel trip, I would accept you with open arms and I would never make you feel unwanted or out of place. Similiarly, if your right to practice Judaism as you saw fit was in any way hindered, or if you were in danger because of your decision to affiliate yourself with Judaism, I’d be the first one in line to defend you. I also have and continue to donate cash to Jewish funds that finance institutions that are not at all Orthodox.
So seriously, what do you want from me? Do you want me to lie to you and tell you that your decision to reject Orthodoxy and embrace Conservative Judaism has no repercussions? Or would you rather I embrace Conservative Judaism founded in the late 1800s and reject my own ancient practice?
I mean you admit that Orthodoxy is not a monolith and that it contains myriad opinions. Sounds pretty flexible to me. And it has managed to survive all this time because, despite its many streams, certain fundamentals always remained sacrosanct until the advent of Reformed and then Conservative Judaism.
So you want me to give all that up or else risk being branded a fundamentalist or a reactionary or a bigot? And my response to you is always “do whatever you feel is right.”
Now please, tell me. Who is being narrow minded and fundamentalist?
Elon – I stand by what I said, and I find it a stretch you would label it a personal attack.
lynn – when ck states in global terms what Jews do and are, he is, in effect, attempting to speak for all Jews. And halakha isn’t the “code for Orthodox”; it is halakha for all Jews. O often refer to it as “*the* halakha”; however, it has always been interpreted by many, with many conclusions.
As far as ck or any other O, I’ve thankfully only run into this online. The Orthodox I know in my offline life have been welcoming and respectful, even congratulatory when I converted. Some have indicated there is a myriad of opinions on the acceptance of Conservative converts even within Orthodoxy.
As mentioned previously, with time, this becomes less and less of an issue. Pluralism is increasing rapidly. In the meantime, it’s been said there’s no real discourse with a fundamentalist. I didn’t expect ck or any O to accept my conversion, and truly care not that he personally accept it or not; however, I think making a mockery of non-O converts and the conversion process is absolutely disrespectful. If it’s going to be done so frequently here, then maybe the web site should be more clear in stating that this is an Orthodox site.
May time do it’s thing.
um, I don’t think ck ever did say he speaks for all Jews. He’s been vocal about quite the opposite I believe.
All O Rabbi’s who I’ve heard speak about it speak in terms of halacha. That isn’t code for “all Jews” it’s code for Orthodox, which I read as code for 613 Mitzvot observant (yes, many aren’t applicable to everyone or at this time, but if they were/are then they’d follow them) Jews.
Liora- Oy vey! You can disagree with CK’s position but i haven’t found any reason to believe that he has been disingenuous, in fact i’ve experienced quite the opposite.
If we’re going to argue about the validity of Conservative Judaism, then let’s do that but personal attacks are not going to help at all.
CK, you’re coming from what I believe is the incorrect assumption that Orthodox rabbis are the judges of what Torah Judaism is. I don’t believe they are, so therefore I don’t agree that for my conversion to be valid, I would need to find an Orthodox rabbi to put his stamp of approval on it. I chose Conservative Judaism precisely because I believe it is the branch that is most true to Torah.
In your second paragraph, you attempt to tell me what Judaism is and requires – by CK’s rules and O rules. Again, Orthodoxy is not the voice for Judaism. It is *a* voice that some Jews listen to. No, Judaism was never about solemn affirmations to oneself; however, it was also not what we see in any branch’s conversion process today. By your beliefs and those of your rabbis, the earliest converts wouldn’t have been Jews – and frankly, that wouldn’t make you a Jew, either.
CK, cut the bull. You very obviously couldn’t care less about my pain or that of any other convert here, so why pretend you do? Your attitude and tone in your postings and comments here show that very clearly. I don’t believe that driving to shul on Shabbat is against Torah for whatever of the reasons I’ve seen given (final hammer blow, completing a circuit, starting a fire, whatever). One of the issues I have with Orthodoxy is that it is extremely inconsistent. I couldn’t convert to something that wasn’t true or intellectually honest.
And I’ve met very few Jews who proclaim to be Orthodox and are not breaking Shabbat by their own (or their rabbis) interpretation of halakha. That makes it all the more ironic. Hypocrisy abounds, yet when it comes to declaring who is and is not a Jew, they stand behind the label of Orthodoxy and judge.
On a slightly different note, how far back can you trace your family history? Maybe 6 or 7 generations? Frankly, anyone’s lineage is suspect. How do you know that your fellow O’s are really Jews by your standards? How do you know that you are? Do you have proof going back?
Lastly, I do think this is just a matter of time until pluralism isn’t an issue in Judaism. Unfortunately, it may be a matter of a long time. However, I never thought I’d see in my lifetime Israel admitting those as Jews who completed other than O conversions. It’s a good sign. It’s the wave of things to come, whether or not you like it or accept it, ck. You and the other O who do not accept other than O conversions do not get to speak for all Jews.
Liora, I appreciate your candor and your frankness. Your pain saddens me. I could tell you simply that if you know that your “conversion was absolutely kosher by Torah standards” then it ought not be a problem to find 3 Orthodox Rabbis to confirm that. But you see the need for Rabbis as some sort of Catholic thing, like a priest hearing confession or a Pope dispensing… dispensation. I personally kind of rely on Rabbis to answer questions for me because I am not as learned as they are. It’s a service I find handy and it brings a certain measure of consistency to my practice and my knowledge. I mean I understand your disdain against Catholicism, but Torah Judaism and the learned Rabbis are very different from Catholics.
Your approach here is very individualistic. However in Judaism, while it is important for the convert to be sincere and that sincerity comes from within, we absolutely need learned individuals to make sure that the convert is properly educated and knows what he/she is getting into. It isn’t and never has been an issue of simply making a solemn affirmation to oneself.
But whatever, I digress. I am sorry that my beliefs offend you. I’ll tell you what Liora. Lets compromise. You want me to do something I’m not entirely comfortable with, so it’s only fair that I ask you to do the same thing.
I’ll bite the bullet and welcome you with open arms, (for whatever that is worth because I am after all NOBODY) on the condition that you observe the sabbath (and that includes no driving too, even to the synagogue) and keep kosher. That’s the deal. Fair?
In reading over more of these, I see another thing repeatedly mentioned – the dismissal of the validity of non-O rabbis.
The rabbi didn’t convert me. I converted. You’re reducing every convert to a piece of paper to be signed and stamped by only those human beings you consider worthy of “performing” the conversion. Nobody performed a conversion on me. I converted.
I was never Catholic, I can’t help but have that philosophy remind me of Catholocism, the Pope and all his minions who have the power to pronounce individuals valid or not, members or not. The attitude and the practice are many things, but Torah Judaism they are not.
Avi, lynn and others – thank you so much for your posts. Please feel free to write me.
This whole thing has had me in tears countless times – both reading on this site and elsewhere.
When I converted, I did so unmarried, not engaged, not dating a Jew (still all the above, unfortunately). I studied 9 months on my own, visiting synagogues, including Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. (Shook countless men’s hands in the O synagogue my first two visits before figuring out it was a no-no, which makes me laugh now). I wrote back and forth to Rick Halpern of Torah Atlanta and ate dinner at his family’s home several times, while considering Orthodox Judaism.
But OJ didn’t fit in several ways, though I was doing things like trying to kasher my kitchen even before converting because I was told a distant matrlineal grandmother was Jewish. I ended up meeting with a Conservative rabbi instead. He asked me why not convert Orthodox, especially since my background was fundamentalism. We explored that. I told him I had all the time in the world, which was true. If the O quoted me a 4-year conversion, it would have been fine.
In the end, I converted Conservative, though I thought I was “technically Jewish” without being able to prove it on paper. I made big changes before converting, such as quitting my job that required work on Shabbat. Ultimately the conversion took about 1 year, 9 months, if you consider those 9 months I spent studying on my own before contacting the rabbi. It wasn’t an overnight conversion. There was nothing easy or downgraded in difficulty from an Orthodox conversion.
Considering I know my motives and those of others like me who converted other than Orthodox, I’m incredibly angered and saddened when we experience rejection from our own people. It’s cruel. It is absolutely political. Coming from a fundamentalist background in another religion, I see this as the evil in religion. It’s something they all have in common.
I’ve learned to care less what others think of my conversion. I know my heart. I know that my conversion was absolutely kosher by Torah standards. The real lingering emotion is sadness – for myself and others like lynn, Avi and countless folks I’ve been in touch with. It doesn’t matter which branch one choses to convert with – they will run into problems with acceptance whether or not they’re aware of it. Bias toward others is a negative trait, but bias toward your own is profoundly heartbreaking to those Jews who are converts. Where are they to go? Can you imagine *knowing* you belong to a certain family, and yet realizing there’s a branch of your family that considers you illegitimate? That’s the best description I can give as to how it feels. There is no other family for us. We are home.
Sorry so long. Several posts on this site repeatedly (ck’s parody of the supposedly easy, “overnight” conversions in Israel which was met with so much exuberant praise) disrespect Jews who have converted. What I can say is I haven’t experienced the rejection offline that I have online. That’s encouraging, at least.
uhh, BJ, I just reread both ck and my last comments, I don’t know why you are so upset. I stand by what I wrote including how it is unfair of you to ask that someone else accept your beliefs, particularly as you yell at them for the same perceived injustice.
ck took the time to explain many of the reasons he doesnt believe in C Judaism, having stated over and over again how these are his beliefs and you are free to live as you see fit, while apologizing if his beliefs cause you pain. How is that without rachamim?
I apologize that you find everything here so offensive, but I for one refuse to pretend all is alright in the jewish world when i know it is not. While I try to be sensitive, I refuse to whitewash how i feel. But even then, I just dont know why my last comment made you so angry.
Those are some pretty scary stats, they seriously make me want to cry, but in honesty, I can’t help but care about them because continuity and sustainability is of great concern to me.
But once again, no one is telling you how you have to live your life, live it the way you find most meaningful.
My dearest Esther,
Tho I don’t know you at all. Geez, you epitomise to me all that is good and great in the best sense of the word, in Judaism. Not to take away from the others who show another side. But, thank you! Thank you for allowing the possibility.
ck, and laya,
I wrote half a rebuttal. I was pissed. I went for a walk. I decided that the rebuttal didn’t matter a whole lot at this stage.
I think that you would not say what you said, to my face. Not without rachamim. I really like your spirit, your souls. I wish you all good and great things.
I hope you remember that when you are showing the sights to young Jews that, in faith, you do not agree with the beliefs or affiliation of a whole lot of them. Know that you can tout the O line, but that some will be turned off, when push comes to shove, as I was, in Israel. In really offensive ways.
I do not have contempt for O beliefs. I marvel at them. I wish I could believe similarly but I cannot. Meanwhile, I don’t care about the friggin
figures that anyone quotes. That is not my fight.
Thank you for laya’s quote. I will ascribe only good intentions to you and laya and wish you both the same.
Avi, I am really really sorry that was your experience. On behalf of O Jews everywhere I apoligize. Some people are snobs about it plain and simple. You are right, in israel you realize that there is no such thing as a “jewish look”. I want to say though that I really respect that you continued didnt let it get between you and God, or you and the religion as a whole while you found a place where you were more comfortable.
I’m an Orthodox convert to Judaism who nowdays prays in a Masorti shul. Why?
I accepted Judaism according to the Orthodox ritual and world view with all the mitzvos. I was told that from the mikveh I was completely Jewish with all duties and rights of somebody who was born Jewish.
Yet I faced very unpleasant situations when davening in shuls in other cities and countries. The people looked at me very suspiciously and asked everything. Like: “Was your mother Jewish?” or “Are you really Jewish?”, all this referring to my “non-Jewish” looks (I try to figure out what the Hell it means). I guess they never visited Israel in order to see how many kinds of “Jewish looks” there are.
The embarassing questions made me feel every time as if I was again in front of a Beth Din. But this was not the worst. The saddest was to come to a shul for a prayer, where the people was waiting for the 10th man. We were exactly ten, I got again suspicious looks at me and people spoke quietly referring to me with their sights and the prayer really didn’t start until an 11th man came in with his apparently more “kosher” looks.
No, I didn’t become less observant when I changed shul. I keep kosher, shabbos, daven 3 time a day, put tefillin and keep the fast days. And this is what is taught in my Conservative shul. The rabbi is absolutely against driving the car or using electric equipement on shabbos.
The most beautiful thing is to feel to be accepted fully with my looks without humiliating questions or attitude towards different looks. Unless an Orthodox is the “only party in the town” or other serious reason I will never more set my foot to an Orthodox synagogue.
another convert’s viewpoint:
from experience, one of the things you may not learn about is the breadth of response you receive as a convert. For me it comes down to the people or community you’re with. My first post-conversion shul was MO. The Rabbi knew I wasn’t an O convert, but I was treated the same as any other member of the congregation. Heck, it was their Mikva that was used for the conversion in the first place! Secular Jews have never asked me the kind of conversion I had, and with my husband’s Orthodox relatives, I’ve made sure I’m well versed in what NOT to do or touch so I don’t ruin dinner. (and then there are the times I screw up, sigh)
I accept the fact that many people don’t consider me or my future children Jewish. And, that’s okay. I understand why they don’t, and I also understand that no matter my yearning to be accepted totally by everyone, well, that just ain’t gonna happen, no matter how I converted. Even Orthodox converts have issues with acceptance from some Jews.
It took me while to be comfortable with this (I did convert quite young) but if the Orthodox shoe fits like a glove (love those mixed metaphors), then you need to convert Orthodox. If it doesn’t then you’ve got a lot of soul searching to do. I still have some work to do on the children part. Parts of me say “if they want to be Orthodox, then it’s not the end of the world that they need to express that commitment by conversion” part of me says “why make their lives so much harder” and another large part says “converting Orthodox to make your kids’ lives easier would be a false conversion and Jews would have every right to question my commitment to Judaism in general”
In the meantime I study and I work towards an observant life that feels honest to the commitment I made even though it wasn’t in front of an Orthodox beit din.
I don’t know why I’m tongue-tied by this whole discussion. I want to find words that will bridge the gap between CK and Barefoot Jewess and get them to understand each other. But I’m not sure I can, and am therefore even reluctant to try.
I don’t seem to have the facts at my fingertips on either movement, frankly, which is perhaps a huge educational failing. And now someone at my office just gave me some work to do (if you can imagine the nerve), so I’ll have to wait to crawl inside your heads.
But in summary of the nothing that I’ve said, I want to amend what Laya said and CK quoted, and say that may our attachments to Judaism, whatever their origin or depth or denominational level, fill our lives with meaning and help to build a stronger nation.
I so don’t understand you barefoot jewess. when you chose to convert with conservative rabbis, didn’t someone tell you that a conservative conversion would not be accepted by anyone who holds by Orthodox Judaism? You sound like this is news to you or something. Is the fact that I don’t believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior a grievous insult to all Christians? I sure hope not, just as their refusal to embrace Judaism is not an insult to me. But we’ve gone over all that already haven’t we. OK let’s maybe try to go into more substantial areas.
First your latest message. You read way too much into my use back in post 385 of the term “more jewish.” I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that’s it.
BJ wrote:
So, you are saying everything stopped for you a couple of hundred years ago?
And what are you saying? That Orthodox Judaism is anachronistic and doesn’t evolve? I disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.
BJ said:
It is your dismissive tone. It comes across as worse than hatred-it comes across as indifference.
What you call “dismissive” I call frank and honest and to the point. I follow Orthodox Judaism, not Conservative or Reform. I do not
recognize the authority of those Rabbis. But holy crap – I’m not a nutbar. I donate money to the local federation even though they
support reform and conservative institutions. I do not deny the Judaism of the practitioners, I just do not believe in it.
BJ said:
Cause whatever you believe, ck, it doesn’t give you the right to apply it to the rest of the world as truth.
When did I ever say that? Haven’t I in fact said the complete opposite? But again – you are free to believe whatever you want to
believe and practice however you want to practice. Whether I agree or not you have become one of us, sort of. I will indirectly support your religious institutions, I will fight for your right to practice your religion and manifest your spirituality as you see fit. But I won’t marry you and I won’t allow my children to marry your children until I get the approval of an Orthodox Rabbi. This really ought not come as a surprise to you.
And jeez louise, I appreciate your efforts and your sincerity. But you chose the Conservative path – please stop being, I dunno, all
righteously indignant and pretend you didn’t know the consequences.
And it’s not you I am indifferent to. I am terribly terribly sorry that my honesty and the reality of the situation has upset you and caused you pain. That was not at all my intent. I appreciate the efforts you went through, I understand how difficult it must have been – I know quite a few converts, not all Orthodox and regardless of what I think about the underlying movement that converted them, I am touched by their hard work and sincerity. But each person is an adult who made a decision, and that decision has consequences, plain and simple.
So what’s my problem with Conservative Judaism? Well as you know, Conservative Judaism grew out of Reform Judaism which itself can trace its lineage to the emancipation of the Jews in Europe starting in 1789. Reform Judaism was an attempt, in part, to make Judaism less foreign and more in keeping with Jews’ newly acquired citizenship. Look, I’m pretty sure you know all the details, but all that shit is foreign to me. We never had emancipation in Morocco and we never aspired to emulate the Arabs amongst whom we lived. So no reform Judaism for us – it was never, ever an issue in most of the Sephardic world.
Conservative Judaism grew out of Reform Judaism and the notion that the pace of change and reform was too radical, too quick. Conservative Judaism and its central institution, the Jewish Theological Seminary, would try to steer a course between, and I quote “stupid Orthodoxy and insane Reform.”
Let’s now talk about the leadership of the Conservative movement – various heads of the JTS. Solomon Schechter openly violated the Sabbath. Louis Finkelstein had an interesting approach to the study of the Torah, focusing on all manner of multi-denominational endeavors. It was under his leadership that the Rabbinical assembly permitted driving automobiles to the synagogue on the Sabbath (and that worked out really well (not) according to Rabbi Ismar Schorsh, current and soon to be retired head of the JTA).
Anyhow, Louis found the cash in 1938 (before WWII) to launch the Seminary’s Institute for Interdenominational Studies, which brought together Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy and scholars for courses on the various religious traditions. During the war Finkelstein sought funds to expand the Institute, managing to open branches in various cities. What he didn’t manage to do was help get Jews out of Europe and into America – many young German Jews applied to JTS to get visas to America, but Finkelstein refused to issue letters of acceptance. When asked why he was diverting critical resources to interfaith dialogue while European Jewry was being exterminated, Finkelstein explained that the Interfaith Institute has evoked such high praise in many quarters, and has done such effective work, that “I am sure all of us agree it must be kept open and expanded at all costs.” What about basic torah concepts like pikuach nefesh and love thy neighbour? Was that shtetl bred fixation to seek approval from the goyim that strong??? But I digress…
Ismar Schorsch, JTS’ current Chancellor, admitted in 1986 that all of the Conservative clergy’s ties to the past, to the Mesorah, have been broken: “There is almost no common denominator between the profession of the modern [Conservative] rabbi … and the religious leadership of the Middle Ages.” Now I am sure all these are fine men. But I’m just not interested in buying what they are selling.
I am not interested in breaking away from the traditions of my forefathers. Respecting our elders and Rabbis and ancestors is what my culture is all about. that’s why Conservative Judaism is meaningless to me. In Brachot it says “If a man masters the entire Bible and Talmud, but fails to make intimate connections with the previous generation’s sages, he forever remains an ignoramus.” I agree. That’s where I’m coming from. Respect for those who came before me and a shared mission of maintaining the perpetuation of the Jewish people. That is another area where Conservative and Reform Jews fail utterly – continuity.
One simply cannot ignore the numbers. 100 Orthodox Jews after 4 Generations will generate 2588 Jews, Modern Orthodox? 346. Only those two streams of Judaism grow. Conservative Jews? You start with 100 and you end up after 4 generations with 24. Reform? 13. Unaffiliated? 5. If you absolutely, positively want to do the very most to ensure the survival of Judaism, the only denomination that has the answer is Orthodox or Modern Orthodox Judaism. Their intermarriage rate is 3%. Conservative Jews? 37%. Reform Jews? 53%. Unaffiliated Jews? A whopping 72%.
Click here for details on the source of these numbers.
I want my grandchildren to be Jewish. Where do you suggest I go? That’s why, in a mere nutshell, I do not believe in Conservative Judaism. Again – you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. And just as I am not forcing you to accept my beliefs, I take umbrage with your use of derogatory language to criticize my refusal to accept your beliefs. Let me end this with a kind and truly sincere sentiment and quote Laya: “May your attachment to Judaism fill your life with meaning.”
Barefoot, trust me, ck, is far from “indifferent to his fellow jews”. Furthermore he has stated time and time again that what he believes are his beliefs, and you are free to live however you want. He is not trying to take his beliefs and “apply it to the rest of the world as truth,” but similarly, neither can you force him to accept your beliefs of what conversions he must accept. That having been said, may your attachment to judaism fill your life with meaning.
#
Good grief. Anything not Orthodox is irrelevant because both Conservative and Reform Judaism are Western diaspora inventions meant to deal with post emancipation Jewish experience. None of that means shit to me.
I’m sorry. Have I missed something? So, you are saying everything stopped for you a couple of hundred years ago?
Also, wow, that sounds like so much rhetoric.
I’ll tell you this much, ck. I have thought about this long and hard. And hey, your words are beyond hurtful. It is your attitude, not your standing up for what you believe, that hurts. It is your dismissive tone. It comes across as worse than hatred- it comes across as indifference.
Which means you are asserting indifference to a whole lot of Jews and their beliefs and standards.
I don’t like this thread. It is disingenuous. It has a different agenda from what is stated.
Cause whatever you believe, ck, it doesn’t give you the right to apply it to the rest of the world as truth. Or to take on a convert without the remotest amount of sensitivity given what both written and Oral Torahs say about strangers/converts. I take all of the Torah damn seriously, so forgive me for being a pill about it. You have NO idea of what it took for me to get to this place.
I also finally figured out this “more Jewish” description. I am so friggin naive that I didn’t get it until I read “Frumpter”. It means that a convert feels they are better than born Jews, because of their religiosity. It this is true, then I don’t know where you got that idea. I haven’t posted anything here that would suggest that. It also says something more about attitudes to convets, which I have come across before. I figure I’m an easy target for a cheap shot. And if you guess I am saying it from hurt, you betya.
You will NEVER know what it is like to convert to a comepletely different way of life. It may not be “Jewish” enough for you, but it did happen, in some space that you will never understand and show now interest in understanding.
I could forgive you your lack of knowledge, yet I find myself being deeply offended as a convert, and being offended for all converts whose stories you don’t care to know. I really have no words.
I guess that is the lot in life of a convert. I really cling to what Torah says about us. Yet, in my experience, it’s all been a mixed blessing.
ck I didn’t know you were from Morocco, Nice.
I like sephardim because if they are not so religious they know it they aren’t fakers. There is no BS like here where we got these ‘movements’ that change definitions as mas explained and want to be considered the ‘correct’ Judaism. To me what these ‘streams’ have done is what J4J tries to do now.
Your explanation is quite good, not too complicated, although you deal with a complex subject.
I have a post on my blog, especially in light of the disengagement and other issues with Jews, on the meaning of kol israel. Please check it out.
LOL that’s awesome. I was listening to mama africa earlier! Great album.
ck-care to share the Peter Tosh story?
P.S. There is a norwegian on jewlicious! villkommen! Er du en jøde fra Norge? har det bra!
Hey Elon, I’m wearing a Peter Tosh T-shirt right now. Coincidence…or CONSPIRACY?
You should get ck to tell you his Peter Tosh story.
3. Source of authority- CJ view of halakhic development credits chazal with the wholesale creation of the oral law. At the same time as they radically recreated Judaism, they claimed to be the recipients of an ancient oral tradition. The asserted that this oral tradition mandated and justified both their general methodology and they also attributed many specific rulings to this tradition. My issue is like this: if the Rabbis were creating what was in effect a new Torah, then why did they claim that it was old? Did they realize it was new? If they did realize what they were doing, then they were certainly being highly intellectually dishonest by claiming to represent ancient sources. If they really believed their claims, I would have serious questions about their competence. Either way, CJ expects its adherents to follow these people. Why should anyone draw moral guidance from chazal?
I can deal with human fallibility, and I can accept a system that changes to fit the times. But CJ expects us to accept extremely high levels of duplicity/delusional thinking. Anyway, thats all i got for right now. I’m not sure ill be able to respond for the next couple days, so its been for now…
2. Redefinition of core theological terms- Judaism, like any other system of thought, has certain core ideas that distinguish it from others. At some point, a presentation of Judaism that either omits certain integral elements or includes completely foreign ones will cease to be Judaism at all. I have a principled disagreement with where CJ draws the line, but what really bothers me is the use of traditional terms to describe beliefs that are not traditional at all. CJ affirms belief in ideas such as God, revelation and covenant- but often define these things in a way that is radically different from how they are traditionally understood. If you don’t accept a traditional doctrine, tell me why not, and what you believe instead. But appropriating these terms to mean their opposite seems disingenuous to me. (I realize that CJ sees Chazal as having done the same thing. This brings me to my third point…)
Ok the middle, heres a few things I find problematic about Conservative Judaism as presented here and in other places. I hope these points will be constructive (these are just my initial impressions and are not necessarily well sourced…
approach to Torah learning: CJ seems to place a high value upon “modern studiesâ€. However, a distinction needs to be made between taking advantage of modern tools and adopting an improper perspective. Academic studies, by definition, attempt to objectively and dispassionately analyze- to have a personal stake in the material (at least in an overt manner) is a recipe for bad science. In an academic setting, Torah cannot be approached as Torah, but as a particular example of a near eastern text that must be analyzed like any other. The perspective implied by Limud Hatorah is different- as a religious act, learning torah (broad definition) requires intense personal engagement. One is a participant rather than an observer. There are tens of statements to this effect in the Talmud, see for example, Avot 6:5 which discusses the 48 ways in which torah is acquired- this is much more than an intellectual pursuit.
My concern is that by placing historical-critical studies at both the philosophical and practical heart of their approach to Judaism (my impression is that most of the research of C scholars is involved in this area), CJ removes itself from the conversation and frame of reference that Torah learning represents.
michael- i’m listening to peter tosh and reading your post. I agree %100 haha
Hey ck, you see, when I have editing powers, I can correct your most egregious typos. 😉
Do we have to insult the Rastafarians in this forum, ck? They’ve given us so much more than Buddhists and Christians. The Buddhists gave us a philosophy that tends to be taken up by annoying superficial American girls, the Christians butchered us for 2000 years…but the Rastas gave (and give) us some of the best music ever put to wax, a refreshingly laid back look at existence and some awesome ganja. And they love Zion just as much as we do.
So they’re a little wacky! You would be too if you burned through an ounce a day. No, ck, I will simply not stand for this besmirching of the second coolest religion in the world.
Dem a go bun down Babylon one mo’ time! Seen?
Good grief. Anything not Orthodox is irrelevant because both Conservative and Reform Judaism are Western diaspora inventions meant to deal with post emancipation Jewish experience. None of that means shit to me.
My people in Morocco never had to deal with emancipation – it was never an option. We never envied or wished to be accepted by our Arab neighbours. Now that we are in the West we can dispassionately observe the effects of these movements. And what do we see? We see that in an era and in countries where it’s never been easier to be Jewish, where kosher food abounds, where practicing your Judaism does not risk or endanger your life, we see that the closer you get to your non-Jewish society and the more you lose your Jewish distinctiveness, the more likely you are to lose people to intermarriage, apathy and declining birth rates.
So I’m sorry. I am just not even remotely interested. Does that make me a bigot? Heh. Whatever. Call me whatever you like. But ya know, the stats are pretty compelling. And I am not going to make excuses for my beliefs. Like I’ve said a zillion times – please, practice as you wish. I am certain that Hashem will look favorably upon anyone, O,C,R Muslim, Christian whatever, who is a good and decent person. But I reject the religious authority of Conservative and Reform ordained Rabbis, and anything else that flows therefrom. You might think that’s ignorant and you may not like it, but hey, there’s these guys, they smoke lots of pot and they think Haile Selasie is the messiah. And there’s these other guys, and they believe a woman can give birth to God without having sex. And these other dudes revere some bald dude in orange robes who keeps getting reincarnated and lives on a mountain. Now I don’t believe in any of that stuff. But I respect it and I support the right of adherents to practice however they see fit.
But I’m a bigot. Yup. That’s me.
Mas, just read my post at the very top and look at the sources. Your input would be appreciated.
sorry, I don’t have the time/energy to read all four hundred + comments… what exactly are we talking about??
Barefoot, I intend to invite Mas into this discussion. He seems to have the desire to actually research this stuff and provide a reasonable debate.
TM,
I think it’s okay to challenge and even to shout at these people, but I also think we need to be fair and reasonable about their actions. Ck was challenged by you and he answered you honestly. You and I may disagree with him, but that doesn’t make him evil.
Who said the guy was evil? geez.
I don’t think that he is. I believe him to be a mensch in his own way. I am so impressed by anyone who takes up the Jewish mantle. Yeah he definitely answered me honestly, but IMO, he does not answer those who go after him honestly and therefore some seeming honesty, imo, is highly overrated.
My experience in Israel was an “acceptance” until it got down to a moment when there was no room or thought for the women davenning mincha/ma’ariv. I mean, we were left without even a mechitza. Out of the room. Just left on our own– O halachically, that is acceptable.
Oh, spare me. It’s not about hatred or even hubris though the latter label might fit. It’s about ignorance and casual indifference.
For ck, anything not O is irrelevant.
And no one has debated your original post which leads me to believe that this has little to do with religion and G-d, or even halacha, and a hell of a lot to do with ethnocentrism, and hence, bigotry. I’m waiting for someone to prove me wrong.
I imagine myself as an enthusiastic young born Jewess. Feeling the embrace. Loving Israel. Loving what I learn. So I can’t fault the man for it, for his expression of it. I guess that’s a majorly good thing. I can learn later, about the divide. I guess it is not up to him to point it out, so I stand corrected. Yet, he does represent the divide.
If there’s any hate here, it’s coming from someone whose main arguing tactic is calling everyone who disagrees with her a bigot whose relationship with God and Torah is not as full as hers….
“hate?” you’re kidding , right? The objection is to the condescension. You don’t know how “full” my relationship is with anyone. As for the rest, the logic leaves me kinda perplexed. Meanwhile I have not challenged your personal behaviour and views, as you have mine.
I’m kinda at loose ends here, with so much coming to answer. Please forgive me for not being totally attentive. I’m not quite sure what to do here….But thanks for your views!
barefoot jewess – JEWLICIOUS @ THE BEACH DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
just wanted to make sure that this is said clearly, regardless of context.
Elon,
I hear you. Thanks, so much!
I, too, converted to Judaism. Period. Yet, as I am a woman, it made a difference, for me. I embrace the Judaism that embraces women. It is so easy for guys to choose, and yet, I think that is star power salient as well. Cause, wow, you could have gone O and you didn’t!
On the other hand, I would not have converted O because I cannot accept the usual stuff: that the entire Torah and Oral Torah were given at Sinai.
Hmmm. No. Using my brain here. Not to say I trash those who believe it. Actually, I envy them. I wish, I wish…but I can’t believe….
Purim- I found this interesting, from one of the orthodox links:
1. The basic conditions, sine qua non, are (a) acceptance of the totality of the teachings and obligations of the Torah; (b) circumcision (for males); and (c) immersion in a mikveh:
Talmud, Bechorot 30b; Keritot 9a; Yevamot 46a-b; Maimonides, Issurei Bi’ah 12:17 and ch. 13-14; Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah, ch. 268.
2. Conversion requires a Bet Din (Rabbinic tribunal) of three men competent and fit to act as dayanim (judges):
Yevamot 46b-47b; Kidushin 62b; Maimonides, Issurei Bi’ah
So, here is my question to you and i’m not asking in a snarky way, please believe that; If I have done just what is stated above, why isn’t my conversion accepted?
The article says, and I think most of the orthodox men and women would agree that jewish men born of jewish mothers but attending a conservative shul are no less jewish than jewish than yourselves. So if my beit-din is comprise of three men and if they themselves believe in God, accept the divinity of the Torah, and observe the mitzvot than where is the problem? Is the general assumption that jews attending a conservative shul don’t do these things? If that’s the case than i understand more clearly where you’re coming from,
My next move is to bring out the Chewbacca Defense. Dont make me, ill do it! 🙂
Again, PH,
I don’t blame her for being offended, I understand it completely, and wish I could find a way to console her and make her feel whole and universally accepted again for who she is and what she chooses to believe. That does not mean that I feel that those who don’t accept the views of “conservative†Judaim should be ashamed of themselves. They have the same right to pursue and practise Judaism as they see fit that she does.
You ARE a mensch! I am not incensed for myself. I am pissed at the hubris and disappointed about the willful ignorance.
I think that anyone should be ashamed of themselves for any evidence of belittling. Who ever said here that Orthodox views were not respected? And yet that is the assumption. Without foundation. But it’s a good offense, like eating ham sandwiches, or cheeseburgers, or riding on Shabbat, as if those standards define the great and Orthodox Jew ( I don’t think so). Btw, if I want to stereotype, I would wonder at allowing pix of semi-naked women on an internet site. It is a choice? So, ham sandwiches or cheeseburgers are a choice.
Again, thank you and thank you for being a mensch, regardless of your views.
Jewlicious at the Beach does make a difference to that view. So does Birthright. Barefoot, don’t make the same mistake of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. These are valuable enterprises in many respects, and although ck may hold certain beliefs and is free to express them, he also is a true mensch when it comes to bringing people into the fold. I have not seen him disrespect others, and as he has stated, his views are his own and while he doesn’t tell you or ask you how to practice, he believes what he believes.
I think it’s okay to challenge and even to shout at these people, but I also think we need to be fair and reasonable about their actions. Ck was challenged by you and he answered you honestly. You and I may disagree with him, but that doesn’t make him evil. On the contrary, if we had a bunch of ck’s out there, this would be a much healthier and stronger community in general and with a much stronger attachment to Israel.
Purim H,
It’s understandable, as after all, if they hold by orthodox standards there is an implicit unacceptance of the standards by which you’ve chosen to accept, even if it’s not personal it’s there. More so, because they don’t accept the standards for conversion as practised by the conservative movement, there is an implicit rejectiont to your personal status as a Jew, and for someone as committed as yourself to Judaism, that’s very very painful. Regardless of the fact that most of those people who implicitly reject you are not even aware of your existence, just knowing how they would react to your case is enough to cause great amounts of pain.
Well Purim H, thank you for the empathy. You are a mensch, in my eyes, in giving even that much benefit of the doubt to me and to others.
Fact is, no one has given TM or me reasons for their views. I said that I went into the conversion thing with eyes wide open, and fully understood the implications. However, what I do not accept, is the emotional, thoughtless trashing of a belief system and people who do not fit into that mold. Which I have seen here over and over again. When ck implicitly trashes/dismisses my religious beliefs or “style” because the ethnic roots (read, what some rabbis say) matter more, he is trashing the beliefs and way of life and views of all Conservative and Reform Jews and beyond. Well, I’m thinking it doesn’t make him or his posse right.
TM is SO right- the dividing line and the true touchstone is the way one thinks and believes about converts- and then that tells us in what regard one considers other streams of Judaism.
Because, in the end, how you treat converts, in truth, is what you are telling the rest of Jewry about your real attitude and where you stand in regard to all other Jews.
Do those tender people who go on trips to Israel know that for all the enthusiasm of their guides,
those very same guides dismiss the foundations upon which so many Jews find resonance?
IMO, it is all about ethnocentricism. You are a born Jew so you are okay. But I don’t want to hear about anyone you want to marry or some of your children.
My rabbi told me about a case where a couple came to be married and the bridegroom was a direct descendent of Josef Karo, author of the Shulchan Aruch. But their family, through oppression and persecution, ended up in Cuba. Said family also lost papers. So, no Orthodox rabbi would marry them.
Wow, it must be great to stand by the paper trail. And stand by the black and white. Just don’t tell me that “Jewlicious at the Beach” makes a difference to that view, and I think it is misleading. IMHO.
We are not in this all together according to what I read, so don’t mislead people into thinking it.
Just a couple of sites that are worth reading in relation to this discussion: (You’ll note, they are from multiple viewpoints, and reach multiple conclutions, I think TM will like the second one.)
My goal in doing this is to bring more information into the discussion, not to prove one side correct. These Pages that follow are generally good at sighting sources and reasons for their opinions. I don’t vouch for, or unconditionally accept any of the opinions on any of the pages, they are not ment to be a representation even in part of my beliefs.
http://www.jerusalemletter.co.il/archives/Feb21/varnish.htm
http://www.irac.org/article_e.asp?artid=65
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/MTS64features.htm
http://www.whoisajew.com/part_two.htm
long link
http://www.uscj.org/intmar/convmain.html
http://www.convert.org/index.html
http://www.wujs-arad.org/index.htm?conversion.htm
There are plenty more sights out there, and plenty of experts on all sides to discuss with. But before we brazenly hurt each others emotions and invalidate each others beliefs, don’t we owe it to each other to at least try to gain some knowledge on the topic from all perspectives.
Um, Michael, I was not insinuating that you would ever divorce or prevent your future wife from getting a get should, chas v’chalila, you divorce. I wish you a lifetime of happiness with the perfect spouse and do not believe for a moment that you’re the type of person who would harm another in this way. The point is that you would have the ability to do so, as many do, and following the laws is what leads to this problem.
I also said that “if you decide to divorce” you will have the power of not giving a get. That isn’t a reflection on you in any way, I could have simply said Joe Shmo and Jane Doe who are Orthodox.
The other part of it, I’m afraid, is a lot more correct than conjecture. In fact, we’ve discussed it on Jewlicious with some of the ba’alei teshuvah we have here and their sense was that this is just because a ba’al teshuva has a greater likelihood of regressing to non-Orthodox status than a frum from birth. I certainly wish you the best bride and wife possible and hope that if she’s from a frum family my generalization will not hold up. But I’m afraid my generalization is a valid one and not based upon conjecture.
Nothing personal there, Michael, why would I wish to attack you in any way?
TM, I would say whether or not I would be able to marry a FFB girl depends on the girl and the family. Not all “frum” people are exactly the same. So you’re speaking complete conjecture that has no bearing on…anything, really.
Of course, then you conjecture even further and say that not only will I get divorced, but I’ll refuse to grant my theoretical-future-ex-wife a get. Not only does that again have no bearing, it’s almost like you’re trying to insult my character by saying that I’m the kind of type who would chain a woman to a marriage.
So how about we agree that arguing by offensive, inaccurate conjecture is not the way to go?
TM… Considering that Ruth’s conversion was very contravertial at it’s time, (remember Ploni Al’Moni turns her away), I agree with you that it’s worth another look. Upon review though it comes to light that the Sanhedrin (the Greatest legal Halachic body in our history) ruled on Ruth’s conversion as being valid, and only then does Boaz marry her. If the conservative movement’s Rabbi’s were accepted as being on the level of the Sanhedrin then I’m sure everyone would accept all their halachic rulings, but that’s just not the case.
Um, Michael, I don’t need another angle for the debate. It is you who are saying, “Things are the way they are and I accept that this is the way things are.”
The fact is that your position rejects the values and beliefs of a majority of Jews, not just me or Barefoot. I also think that you should reread the Ruth story because it’s all there. You may wish for there to be more backstory, but it is fairly straightforward. You think it’s a weak angle and that’s fine, but I think it’s even weaker to say “because that’s the way we do it as real Jews” and then dismiss a key story in the Torah that diverges from what you practice.
This affects you as well, Michael. If you meet a perfect potential spouse tomorrow, but she’s frum from birth, you ain’t gonna be able to marry her. If you do marry and then decide to divorce, you will have a get to hold over your wife, and she might end up living for years in limbo – even if those are key child-bearing years where she desperately wishes to remarry – because this is the way the “practitioners do it.”
Just because people do it, that doesn’t mean it’s right. I know you know that. I don’t need you to agree with me or change your mind right now. Just keep this discussion in mind for the future.
Peace.
If I was spewing profanity at Barefoot, that would be unjust and not right. However, explaining why Orthodox Jews do not accept her as Jewish is neither. It’s the truth, and there’s no point lying. If being accepted by 100% of the Jewish people is what she ultimately wants, she knows what she has to do. If she’s not prepared to do that, then she can’t expect universal acceptance, and giving that acceptance to her is not our responsibility. I question and challenge all the time, it’s in every Jew’s blood. But this is an Orthodox policy I accept, having had it explained to me numerous times. And you don’t have to be Orthodox to realize that religious practices are dictated by practitioners, not outsiders applying pressure. You haven’t come up with a good reason for why Orthodoxy should change its stance other than it personally makes you upset and it hurts the feelings of non-Orthodox converts. Yofi. Good luck.
As far as the Ruth story, that’s your supposed trump card, and it has been repeatedly explained to you why it doesn’t work on the people you’re arguing against. It’s a very poor arguing point and you’re not strengthening your case by repeatedly bringing it up. The only people you’re impressing with it are yourself and Barefoot, and you refuse to give any credence to anything other than your own understanding of it as it serves your own needs. So if you want this little debate to continue, it’s time for you to come up with another angle for debate, one whose entire thrust is not “In Ruth, it doesn’t explicitly say how she converts, so Conservative conversions are just as valid as Orthodox!”
Yes Michael, imagine a devout Jew who has come to join the Jewish people being told she’s not a Jew. Gosh, how hateful she must be to attack ck.
I know “that’s how it is.” So what? Do you just accept everything you’re told to do? Do you not question or challenge? Are you unable to see what is just and right in the treatment of another individual or is everything you do tinted by faith? If the faith told you to spit on all blue-eyed women, would you do that as well? Where do you draw the line?
I understand where you, ck and the others are coming from. Really. That doesn’t mean that it’s okay.
Purim, bring’em on. I brought you the Ruth story and you guys have failed miserably at pointing out why recent converts need to jump through hoops in a way different than what we find in the Torah.
Well said Michael….
They cannot even go back to the Torah to prove that your conversion is untenable. In fact, as we have seen, when challenged with the related words and concepts of the Torah, they prefer to bring up irrelevant comparisons to practices we no longer have in Judaism but that existed when Israelite religion existed.
TM, The reason we’ve had to bring comparisons and practices, and stories, ect, and havn’t brought Halachic Torah Sources is because if we did you’d dismiss them outright as being invalid and atiquitated. It’s very hard to converse with someone and hold a contrary opinion when you’ve both got different sets of primary sources and a different bibliography and you choose to outright dismiss the others sources. It’s not that Halachic Sources can’t be brought, it’s that it would be futile to bring them when you’ve already acknowledged your dismisal of their validity.
It’s funny, that I offer you my hand unconditionally, and instead of taking it, you snap at it, and change my words of unconditional love into conditional hatered.
Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn’t mean accepting everything they say or do.
I wouldn’t say ck has been demonstrating an unfair or hateful attitude towards Conservative converts. He’s telling the truth: that he does not accept them as full Jews, and he’s telling it in a calm, gentle and respectful way. If there’s any hate here, it’s coming from someone whose main arguing tactic is calling everyone who disagrees with her a bigot whose relationship with God and Torah is not as full as hers.
The fact of the matter is, Judaism is a religion. Religions are not all the time cold and rational. Religious people tend to have certain fundamental beliefs, and a lot of these beliefs are deep gut level sorts of things. They may not be entirely rational, but they are the foundations of any religion. So if ck, or any other Orthodox-identifying Jew, has a deep-seated gut level reaction that the Conservative movement represents a conscious break from the Jewish tradition they value, no amount of name-calling is going to force them to change their minds. If Conservative converts are so committed to their Judaism, then let them be the best Conservative Jews they can be. But, despite what many of them seem to think, it is not the duty of the Orthodox to accept them. People in a movement are allowed to set the parameters of the movement. And, like it or not, people are much more willing to hear voices calling for change from within their own movement, not from people viewed as outsiders.
So why are converts the proverbial line in the sand? Because when you accept the validity of a convert, you implicitly accept everything behind him or her. And Orthodox Jews do not accept Conservative Judaism. As such, they do not accept Conservative conversions. You can rail against it all you want, but that’s how it is. Wide attacks on the Orthodox for their belief system will only further cement it.
Of course, coming back to the original point, this doesn’t mean Orthodox Jews can’t love and respect Conservative converts as people. They just don’t see them as full Jews. And that’s it.
TM, will it make your day to know that I totally agree with you?
ck, clean up your act. Show some consistency, man!
Elon, while I appreciate your thanks, please know that this is important to me.
It’s very easy for me to dismiss anybody who disparages my Judaism or my affiliation with Jewish life because I was born Jewish. I can start eating pork all day long while disparaging other Jews and Israel, and most Jews would still consider me a Jew. Some will see me as someone who has strayed, while others will see me as a person they could potentially bring back into the fold, but the accident of birth will determine their devotion to the idea that I’m Jewish.
As such, it particularly galls me when you have a situation where somebody has come to Judaism from an intellectual and faithful devotion and is not afforded the same benefit of the doubt afforded to me.
Regardless of their reasons, the people who do not consider you Jewish because your conversion was done by a Conservative rabbi, are making a choice. They cannot even go back to the Torah to prove that your conversion is untenable. In fact, as we have seen, when challenged with the related words and concepts of the Torah, they prefer to bring up irrelevant comparisons to practices we no longer have in Judaism but that existed when Israelite religion existed.
Perhaps it’s taken this long in the discussion to acknowledge that the real rift here is the issue of converts. Converts represent a deeper problem than Jewish non-Orthodox because the accident of birth doesn’t absolve them – in the eyes of the Orthodox – from automatic consideration as Jews.
These people should look long and hard in the mirror. When ck, a very intelligent individual, acknowledges that a Conservative convert “may be closer to G*d than me” and may practice in a way that is superior to his practice, but then hedges that despite that, he cannot accept the convert as a Jew because he rejects the convert’s rabbis, that is clearly a choice. He isn’t a blind follower of anything else and has no difficulty cynically questioning numerous other issues that come up in our world, but for some reason in this instance, he lazily throws his hands up in a pseudo-resigned fashion and says, “What can I do, my rabbis tell me your rabbis ain’t kosher.”
On the other hand, when Laya asks about women being witnesses at a wedding, he is suddenly able to inquire why indeed women can’t be witnesses.
Sorry to pick on you, ck, but I’m actually speaking to all of you who have spoken openly about your rejection of Conservative converts. You all know that what you’re saying is not just and would not be the way you would wish to be treated by others. And yet, you take an assertive position in this clearly unfair and hateful attitude toward Conservative converts.
Ve’ahavta le’rea’cha kamocha [love your friend as you would love yourself] (or was he just talking about Jews from birth?)…
barefoot- I, maybe more than anyone on this site understand where you’re coming from..we could even start up a support group :-p All kidding aside, I think it is important to remember, you didn’t convert to conservative judaism, you converted to Judaism. I know personallly conservative jews that are observant to an orthodox level, but prefer to have women make aliyah and what not so they go to a conservative shul. I also know of lots more conservative jews, who go to shul on holidays and that’s about it. The only thing i find offensive is when orthodox jews assume I converted with a conservative rabbi because i wasn’t willing to keep mitzvot! As if their couldn’t be any other reason. The truth is though, that right now i go to a conservative shul, a GREAT one at that, but when i go back home I will probably go to an modern orthodox one because the location of the conservative shul makes it innacessable without a car! I’m not willing to drive to shul on shabbos…I converted to judaism not conservative judaism. If that means I have to have another conversion under the MO rabbi, then so be it. I don’t like the idea that i’d have to do so, but i’ll do it and move on.
TM- I don’t think i’ve thanked you yet in general for sticking up for us, the converts of the conservative persuasion…so thank you.
TM.. did you read my post? I don’t blame her for being offended, I understand it completely, and wish I could find a way to console her and make her feel whole and universally accepted again for who she is and what she chooses to believe. That does not mean that I feel that those who don’t accept the views of “conservative” Judaim should be ashamed of themselves. They have the same right to pursue and practise Judaism as they see fit that she does.
When are we going to understand that just because people’s beliefs are contrary, that doesn’t mean that there is a personal attack on each other. I’m sure those people espousing “orthodox” don’t do so out of a desire to belittle Barefoot and make her feel bad, and I’m sure the majority of them would love to do everything they can while still being true to their own beliefs to consol her and validate her emotions.
Just because people disagree, even on major tenates of belief in a maner where there is conflict in Ideology where it can even be painful, does not mean that they can’t also have love and respect for each other, nor does it give you a license to attack the other person. All it means is that you believe things differently and very deeply, and that you’ll have to find other points of similarity if your going to reach mutual understanding on anything. People aren’t criminal for holding beliefs different they your own, their Human and we have to learn to accept that.
theMiddle, When I said that everyone was well… just Jewish, I didn’t mean that we all observed the same way or believed the same thing, rather, the label system was not in place. The one thing that has probably hurt us as a people the most, and styfled dialogue the most, was the creation of labels and titles for Jewdaism. Observance was not ments to define people into sub-catigories. It’s provided the mechanism to split the Jewish people perhaps more then any phisical barrier ever separated the ashkinaz from the Sfaradi, or from the Ethiopians. If I had the power, I would abolish the lable system, but unfortunatly the damage has already been done.
Since the beggining of Jewdaism we’ve had different approaches to relating to G-d amongst different people. Each of the tribes of Israel had their own prayers, their own practices, and their own customs, what made us a people was that we shared a common ancestry and belief in certain basics.
Differences amongst Jews isn’t a problem, it’s beautiful, and should be embraced. We each should walk our own personal path towards a fullfilling relationship with G-d, but once again, the only thing that unifies us a people and makes us special is the fact that we can trace ourselves back to the same starting place, and the same basic tenates of belief.
The goal today should be to bring us back to a people who are Just Jewish, in all of our various shapes, colors, styles, and practices.
Purim, can you blame a devout convert to Judaism for being offended? Those who reject her should be ashamed of themselves.
Barefoot… I think I see the problem. It appears, and perhaps I’m wrong, that you have a very personal feeling of rejection from anyone who upholds halachic standards as ourlined by “orthodoxy”. It’s understandable, as after all, if they hold by orthodox standards there is an implicit unacceptance of the standards by which you’ve chosen to accept, even if it’s not personal it’s there. More so, because they don’t accept the standards for conversion as practised by the conservative movement, there is an implicit rejectiont to your personal status as a Jew, and for someone as committed as yourself to Judaism, that’s very very painful. Regardless of the fact that most of those people who implicitly reject you are not even aware of your existence, just knowing how they would react to your case is enough to cause great amounts of pain.
It’s very hard to remove the personal sting involved in all this, because it involves real people and real emotions. It’s very hard to understand in that possition that those who choose to follow an “orthodox” lifestyle also feel in a way rejected by those who negate their beliefs saying they are invalid and antiquitated.
When dealing with real and powerful personal emotions as we are, there really can’t be an expectation that one side can convince the other of their argument and possition is correct and the other flawed or incorrect. Rather, the best we can hope for is a possitive dialoge where each side is heard, and we agree to disagree. At that point it is important that each side metaphorically hug. By embracing each other as people with valid emotions who deserve to be respected as such we will be stengthend to be able to deal with other problems that are possibly larger and more immediate. Problems that face all of us equaly.
Time will provide the tools of resolution, not individual battles amongst those who should be friends, over issues that aren’t going to be changed. Only then can we begin to heal. And we have a lot of healing to do.
All of us would do well to remember the words of Hillel, V’Ahavta Lareyacha Kamocha, Love each person as ourself. Achdut (Unity) is the answer. The Emes, the truth, will come out on it’s own through our acceptance and Ahava (Love). You reach someone and Embrace them by loving them unconditionally. While we don’t have to love each others actions, we can hate them in fact, it is of the upmost importance that we love each other. Hate the Act, the ideoligy, but not the person. And show each other the unconditional possitive regard that we all deserve
Uh, uh, ck, you don’t get off so easily. Your rabbis aren’t being rejected. Yet you and other Orthodox reject Conservative rabbis and practice. There is no equivalence here.
Purim Hero, before there was everyone Jewish, there were streams as well. Hassidism is not a modern stream? Israelites and Jews aren’t different? The Ethiopian Jews whose customs we learn about today aren’t different than those of 17th Century Jews when everyone was “well…Jewish?”
Ck and I were sitting at dinner and an Orthodox rabbi told us that yes indeed, Judaism has always been evolving. So the question becomes what is it that makes one version more legitimate than others? I understand setting a certain minimum standard, but some people here want that minimum standard to be Torah MiSinai. All well and good if you believe it. But what if you have doubts, or have doubts about what really happened? So then you continue to avoid turning on your car on shabbat because somehow that makes you a better Jew? Sure it does, but it also makes you someone who is living on the basis of a lie – you don’t really believe in what you’re practicing. How is that of any value? Does being a non-believing but Orthodox-observant Jew make you a good Jew?
We’re not going to change perceptions of Judaism with this discussion, but those of you who read this and are Orthodox should look hard in the mirror and ask why you’re making certain choices about who is a “good” Jew. Jus’ saying.
One other thing, ck.
You could have answered way past Shabbat. You answered something else today. I think you were here.
ck,
Oy barefoot Jewess. How many times do I have to answer th same questions over and over and over again? Oznayim lahem veh lo yishmaoun. Also, you posted your comments and questions on the sabbath. I don’t spend shabbat on the Internet, I spend it at shul and with my family so forgive me if I missed your words…
Yes, sabbath observance aside
The fact that you use that execrable excuse for self-righteousness disappoints me. Actually, I am on the west coast of North America, but if you want to make a big, self-righteous deal out of it, feel free to check the times. Regardless, even if I posted past the time of sunset I believe it is very bad form for any Jew to point it out.
So once again, allow me to reiterate. I follow the Orthodox stream. Your espousal of Conservative Judaism is a rejection of Orthodoxy – why are you surprised that the Orthodox don’t embrace you?
You perceive it as a rejection. You give no explanation for your beliefs. Neither have you addressed the issues TM has set before you. I don’t care about Orthodoxy embracing me given the criteria. I do care that your views are bigoted.
Yes, sabbath observance aside, your lifestyle may be more Jewish than most, maybe even more Jewish than mine, but so what? It’s Conservative and its just not something I believe in. I concede that you may be closer to G*d than me, you may be more spiritual, you may be a better person but I do not accept the authority of your Rabbis, just as you chose not to accept the authority of mine.
You are well within your rights, although what you expressed, religiously speaking, sounds really nasty. And don’t be so condescending to stuff you so clearly do not understand because you don’t care to check it out with any gravity nor to argue. Meanwhile, for me it is not about accepting or rejecting authority of any rabbi, of any sort. It has to do with reason and justice and conscience and integrity. Well thought out. Not as simple as you make it out to be, though perhaps authority is all you think it takes.
Funny how you talk about bullies. I am gonna guess that you made your choice with a lot of thought as I did, for me. On this we can agree.
I have great consideration for you. I think that you are someone who I would enjoy knowing, and I love your passion for being Jewish. I just object to the ill-informed crap aimed at Conservative Judaism on this site. Because when it comes down
to new generations, how things are different, I don’t find a difference. And regardless of all of the glib talk, it seems that converts are the line drawn in the sand. In the end, you are no different from those who went before you. Your spin is just more palatable. But it still doesn’t prevent your views from being bigoted.
CK… if necessary we teach someone 400 times… even 401… come on, it’s in the gemarra…
And Conservative Judaism was a rejection of Reform, Reform was a regection of Europe… Orthodoxy was itself a means of reconsiliation of the reform and conservative movment. Before Reform in Germany everyone was just well… Jewish
Oy barefoot Jewess. How many times do I have to answer th same questions over and over and over again? Oznayim lahem veh lo yishmaoun. Also, you posted your comments and questions on the sabbath. I don’t spend shabbat on the Internet, I spend it at shul and with my family so forgive me if I missed your words.
So once again, allow me to reiterate. I follow the Orthodox stream. Your espousal of Conservative Judaism is a rejection of Orthodoxy – why are you surprised that the Orthodox don’t embrace you?
Yes, sabbath observance aside, your lifestyle may be more Jewish than most, maybe even more Jewish than mine, but so what? It’s Conservative and its just not something I believe in. I concede that you may be closer to G*d than me, you may be more spiritual, you may be a better person but I do not accept the authority of your Rabbis, just as you chose not to accept the authority of mine.
But all this is not a big deal. I still consider you dear to me. I’ll fight for you to have the right to practice as you wish, to believe what you wish etc. etc. I will even contribute money to the Federation that subsidizes your synagogue.
I am not better than you. I just have certain beliefs that were passed on to me by untold generations of my ancestors and I will not be bullied into rejecting them. Seriously, I wish you well – why not extend to me the same courtesy and consideration that I extend to you?
No, as far as I can tell, having read Jewlicious since the beginning, it’s about a group of writerly-minded Jews at different locations and different points in their lives writing about Jewish issues that they find important or amusing or interesting. If there’s any greater overarching purpose, I guess it’s that it’s good to be proud of Jewishness, because we all are.
michael,
Okay, I can accept that there is nothing new under the sun.
So, is it all about image?
Re:
well, thats arguable. clearly.
In response to post #377- laya, your response is so ambiguous.
I have not a clue as to what you mean. Would you care to explain the point that you are making and your reasoning behind it?
Why do people keep making up their own idea of what Jewlicious stands for and judging Jewlicious against that standard? How can a blog with six regular bloggers who all have different thoughts and opinions on life, the universe and everything stand for any one particular thing?
Nobody besides you has ever said Jewlicious stands for “the New Jew.” It says Jewlicious on the screen, not “Alteneuland.”
Tm
Since this is a relatively old post, people aren’t seeing it
Clearly, not true. Just not answering it. Why? I can only go by my own experience- Feh! Why waste my time when there are better fish to fry? Like, this will matter once it descends down the post line.—
Still, I find it interesting that Jewlicious stands for the New Jew, yet actually is only “new” in verbal speak but not in reality. Although, to be fair, they do allow alternate opinions without deletion, though they may not continue to answer.
This would be the annual Haddassah sex toy and kitten heel convention?
Why do I have a feeling Jewish Mother might be there?
Please please please esther send our regards to the Hadassah ladies and do tell what REALLY goes on at one of those conferences.
50? Hadassah should be so lucky. I’m disturbed, Michael, but I’ll see what I can do…
Esther – will there be pictures? ‘Cause something about 50 year old Hadassah ladies in sensible pantsuits just really gets me hot under the collar.
And by “arguable,” I would say, meaning “expect people to argue with you,” as such a claim negates the belief and identity of more Jews than you’ll ever encounter; this even goes beyond saying “you’re not Jewish enough for me,” into “you’re not Jewish, period.” Obviously you’re entitled to think that. But I obviously have trouble thinking that everyone whose Judaism is outside the bounds of Orthodoxy is not Jewish at all.
And seriously, with that, I’m off to the Hadassah Convention–2000 Jewish women talking about Jewish issues. Except, you wouldn’t consider 97 percent of them Jews. Don’t you think there’s something wrong with that?
well, thats arguable. clearly.
The actual title of this article is in it self an oxymoron, becase conservative and reform “judaism” is not judaism at all as they do not hold by the FUNDAMANTAL beleifs set out by our holy Torah.
TM
It is obvious that you are dedicated Yid and want the best for the Jewish people. Have you heard that the conservative rabbinical religious committee has said that it is permitted to breastfeed in the sanctuary during services?
However, the articles did not state, and this is a matter for authorities, in light of this enlightened responsa,
can a woman Rabbi breastfeed on the bima? If yes, does this include during the bat-mitzvah speech? Does a nursing mother get an aliyah if she is the middle of nursing, or must she wait? Can men breastfeed in the sanctuary too? Can a women breastfeed twins in the sanctuary ? Since it is often the case that there are several women in the sanctuary at a time that want to breastfeed, is there a nursing row or do women breastfeed where they want? Can a woman breastfeed another persons baby in shul or does it have to be hers? Can a women use a bottle to feed her baby in the sanctuary , although we do not suck torah from bottles but rather from breasts (you must see the deep rabbinical reasoning for the “teshuva” to get this last question). Can a transgender Female Rabbi use a fake breast to breastfeed her child in the sanctuary on shabbat? There are so many questions, and so few experts.
Can a non-Jewish women breastfeed in the sanctuary even one who has no intent on converting? (again one must refer to the original teshuva to get this). Can a teenage mother, who is unmarried, breastfeed in the sanctuary ? Can a woman stand and recite the amidah while breastfeeding, or must she wait? What about the shma and the kedusha? Can a woman who is not able to suckle her child use electric breastpumps in the sanctuary and use that milk in a bottle in the sanctuary on Shabbos?
I hope you can be of some help someone out there.
I hope you change your mind and that we continue to see you.
I don’t think you should let anybody tire you out. If what you read here appalls you (as it appalls me sometimes), rest assured that many people who are appalling you are also being appalled by what I post or by what Muffti posts.
That’s what I mean about this site being a microcosm of the community.
Also, you are letting many people who are ba’alei teshuva (our verson of the born agains) color your views. Trust me, they are trying to justify for themselves the significant changes they have made in their lives. The irony being, of course, that born Orthodox Jews, particularly haredim, will not marry them or marry their children to them because they don’t consider them good enough. Appalling, no?
On this site, not too long ago, a person called me a Destroyer of Judaism. So what? He is welcome to leave here any time instead of adding content to a Destroyer of Judaism’s website. And yet, he returns regularly because he believes his voice is important. You are proving him right, because that voice is among those tiring you out and making you want to leave. That is his goal.
I’m telling you, Barefoot, tell them to stuff it and don’t be afraid to speak up. And don’t be afraid to read them either, they only think they know the truth but they also know it’s just optimism and hope on their part. At the end of the day, they just hope they’re right, and the defensiveness you see is the result of insecurity more than anything. Read the flaws in their beliefs and you’ll better understand your beliefs. You’ll see that if ck ever responds to your question above, he will only be able to say, “Because that’s what I believe.” Faith is not about reason or logic.
I hope to see you return. Really, it’s not okay that you’re leaving and it’s not okay that you’re letting them beat you. I repeat again that you are not only a Jew, but set a fine example for all Jews – not just converts – of devotion and faith. The majority of Jews are on your side.
TM,
I apologise. I did not mean to offend. You are right. I also apologise to Muffti whose often dispassionate perspective I always enjoy even when I don’t agree.
I think you are correct in a lot of what you say, that it is not just the O Jew show. I’m not leaving because I am angry. I’m leaving because I am tired and disheartened.
You bring sensibleness (is that a word) and level headed balance to the debate. I have always felt you to be my champion when such appalling things were said.
However, I think I am better off sticking to places where I don’t have to endure so many comments that appall and shock me. Out of all the places on the net, I have found Jewlicious the most appalling (these are comments over time, not present ones). I think that is because there is so much good here as well. But that’s only my perspective.
I don’t see myself making much of a difference.
But thanks so much, TM. You and Esther have really made my day. Oh wait, given the state of the internet, make that, year. 🙂
Kol hakavod.
So what? Virtually every Orthodox Jew believes that. Does that change how you believe or practice? Excuse me, but instead of leaving and giving them the run of the playground, you can also say, “fuck’em,” and continue to show them that you are a fine Jew.
Oops, scratch some of the above. I want to be fair. The only real Jew according to ck’s views seems to be Orthodox (including converts) and born Jews (even though their values may be insignificant) and does not include converts who are not Orthodox.
Barefoot, wait a minute before you go.
I take personal offense to this. I post freely and with the same authority as ck. So does Muffti, who has more or less given up on the notion of god existing, much less being the god of the Hebrew Bible. We are not kids here who have just woken up and determined that today we belong to this movement or that. We are adults with a sense of camaraderie and belief that these types of dialogue will bring about greater numbers of people to consider their attachment to Judaism. Beyond that, I believe we are friends and share the same love for Judaism, its traditions and values, and for Israel.
This site provides what I believe is a dialogue our community has to have. And it is a microcosm of the Jewish community. Despite my frustration and disagreement with the closed-mindedness of those who reject Conservative Judaism and those converts who did not have an Orthodox conversion, I see the value of a dialogue and believe it is very important for all sides involved.
While it’s true that ck hopes those people will approach Judaism from an Orthodox perspective, he has every right to seek this outcome. My hope is that people will remain attached to Judaism, or will seek to deepen their knowledge – and I hope by coming here and reading interesting discussions, they will form opinions and feel a greater sense of attachment to people who share a concern for the Jewish people and their fate. I care far less about the direction or stream to which they belong, but in all fairness to ck, I have never seen him treat anybody without warmth and openness. On the contrary, he probably does more to bring people back to the fold, or to attach them to Israel than most Jews – and I’m including people who are paid by institutions to provide this type of service. He does it for no money and selflessly regardless of people’s backgrounds.
By leaving, you are essentially saying that because some people do not accept one aspect of Judaism, you do not wish to interact with other aspects either. Ck may have launched this site, but his ideas, posts, comments, etc. are not dominant here and I consider all the posters equals. I don’t ask him what I should post, and he doesn’t ask me. When we meet in person, the debates you read here move into our person to person discussions. Does that mean he disrespects me because I don’t keep shabbat like an Orthodox Jew? Does that mean that I can’t communicate with him? We find common ground and share it. And there’s plenty of common ground to share. I read the Torah a certain way, and he reads it a certain way. Ultimately, however, we both respect it and recognize it as a source for our culture.
What I’m trying to say is that your rejection of me because you have a problem with ck is not okay with me. Your voice is an important one, even if it is angry. You should be heard because what you bring to the table is clear proof that these
foolspeople who stress the superiority of one movement over another are wrong.You do not have permission to leave. Ever.
Having given this some thought, I’m leaving this forum.
I think that ck’s final assertion, that “the values espoused by C Judaism mean nothing to me. They do not speak to my Jewish identity or experience” pretty well put the nail in the coffin of Jewish unity as espoused by this site.
It makes me wonder what ck thinks Jewish identity consists of- the Orthodox viewpoint and way of life? Is one not really Jewish unless those values are espoused? Cause ck, that is surely what you are saying and that is what makes your views bigoted.
And you are a person who is showing young Jews around Israel while in your heart the only real Jew is an Orthodox Jew. Because as long as you reject the “values” of C Judaism (your blanket statement, not mine) and by default, R Judaism, there are not many Jews left whose values you respect and not many Jews who can be identified as true Jews. This is given the fact that most Jews are not Orthodox.
You proclaim this site to be contemporary but it really is not. It is a throwback to previous generations, no matter what your respective ages. The fact that people like the middle also post does not mitigate the essential thrust of your views, in the end.
Your wholesale rejection of C or R converts basically tells most Jews and those who are seriously religious but not O that their worship is invalid, because you find their converts invalid. That what other Jews believe and value is invalid.
What makes you different from those who have gone before you?
Most of all, this site espouses Jewish unity. You want all Jews to live in peace, you want to promote commonality among Jews. How? If you reject the religious values of other Jews, what have we all left in common? Opinions? Music? Clothing?
What? Do we no longer have the Torah in common according to your view? What is left, then?
I really like all of you who post. I take pleasure in your smarts and wit and heart. But I have said my peace, now, and it’s time to go.
ck,
The values espoused by Conservative Judaism mean nothing to me. They do not speak to my Jewish identity or experience, they do not resonate and I am sorry, but I simply do not believe in it.
What values do you not believe in beyond “Torah miSinai”? Have I missed something? Are you talking about ALL C values?
ck,
You have agreed to following tradition. It works for YOU, yes? You have not explained what the attraction is, the personal, how it works for you.
I think anyone can question anything, such is the way of the modern world. Yet, not for you. Why, not for you? I imagine you must have questioned to come to your decision. I would like to understand you decision.
As for the Torah “challenge”. I withdraw it.
I am TOTALLY mimicking my elders. I am Jewish thanks to the collective efforts and wisdom of my elders. Why should I try to second guess them? They’ve been pretty darned successful so far. Not only that but they’ve provided me with a model for continuity that works. They’ve provided me with a model for a way of life that is fulfilling and a great thing to aspire to. I know they would not approve of Conservative or Reform Judaism and who the hell am I to question that? You want me to question Torah meh Sinai?? Well, I have and I concur with my ancestors. Judaism made me what I am today. The values espoused by Conservative Judaism mean nothing to me. They do not speak to my Jewish identity or experience, they do not resonate and I am sorry, but I simply do not believe in it.
Does my belief system neccessarily make me a superior Jew? No. Am I neccessarily better than anyone? No. Am I neccesarily closer to G*d? No. And yet despite the fact that I repeat this over and over again, still I am branded a bigot.
Barefoot Jewess – you identify with Conservative Judaism? OK great! You know that Orthodox Jews have issues, legitimate issues (even if you disagree) with Conservative Judaism. Try not to be offended bc it can’t be any other way.
As to your “challenge” I don’t get it. Where’s the challenge? You want to study Torah with me? There’s hardly a day where I don’t study some measure of Torah – you’re free to join me or vice versa.
…how much are you mimicking your elders and tradition, and how much is due to your own discernment?
I think this is such an important question, one that anyone in search of solid personal faith (as opposed to an inherited collective unconscious) should ask him or herself. The problem is, asking this is sometimes akin to “going into the Pardes,” if you catch my drift; questioning can lead to doubt, and differing opinions, and sometimes, the unofficial credo Jewish community is like Ghostbusters, “we mock what we do not understand.” (Sorry, you know me with the pop culture references.)
Barefoot Jewess, I’m regularly impressed by how devoted you are to discovering your place within Judaism. I hope that the community rises to your level and respects your process enough to learn from the obvious wisdom you have to offer.
Purim Hero.
. Upon reflection she commented that it wasn’t Israel’s fault for not allowing the marriage, and not recognizing her mothers conservative convertion, rather she felt that it was the fault of the conservative movement for having made her mother feel that a conservative convertion was valid completely. Had she been told up front that it wasn’t going to becognized by everyone she probably would have converted orthodox in the first place.
And the reason for converting O is what? To belong, to be “authentic”, to be a “real Jew”?
C belief is so very different from O belief. C believes in divine inspiration of Torah, NOT that Moses gave us the Oral and Written Torah. Don’t ya think it is just a little suspect that someone could switch from C to O in that way?
I’m thinking I would not be using that case as an example for anything.
Ck,
As for Torah study, you say “again, any time”. No, not “again”. I take Torah study seriously, as a Jew. I love it, wish for it, live for it, immerse myself in it. So, are you up to the challenge?
Ck,
You are not “precluded”. You have made a decision. Argue the decision.
TM,
#
Barefoot, as I’ve said in this discussion before, the ones who reject you as a Jew remain a minority and even they are unable to answer why you should be treated any differently than Ruth.
I don’t care about their rejection. But I do reserve the right to question. 🙂
Hey Barefoot Jewess, OK, I think we’re descending into semantics here. You can think I am bigot, it’s your right. I’m a little sort of taken aback by how it is you cannot understand why I am precluded from agreeing with you. But whatever, at least you’re being civil, which is cool.
As far as synagogue services go, our friday night services are pretty lively, I’m sure you’d enjoy them (Moroccan services are always fun, except on yom kippur when they are pure torture). As for Torah study, again, any time.
Purim Hero,
A deli might serve kosher meat, have only kosher ingredients, ect, but if it’s open on shabbos it’s not kosher. I mean no disrespect to the conservative movement,
Yes you do mean disrespect. You set up a maliciously implied scenario, one which does not happen with any serious C Jew.
Shame on you.
TM,
Somewhere, you posted that it was all about faith. I can’t find the post. Still, that really made me sit back in wonder because I did not expect that.
Having given it a lot of thought, I agree with you.
I think that first of all, a big chunk of faith has been lost with the Shoah. The fear of assimilation looms so large, given that the Shoah unconsciously looms so large, that people think that circling wagons is the only way to go. That is a fear response. And so, that fear is transmitted from generation to generation. I see it here.
I also perceive “faith” as the distinction between the O view of “Torah miSinai” v divinely inspired.
And never the twain shall meet. However, I am not convinced, that those like ck believe this, yet it may be that they use O nevertheless to draw the line between the superior “us” and “them” which has nothing to do with RAMBAM’s principles. I’m not saying this is true of ck but neither am I saying this is untrue. IMO, it is something to ponder. Because regardless of how cool or whatever this seems to be, I am thinking, how much are you mimicking your elders and tradition and how much is really due to your own discernment?
One other thing: I think that there seems to be a huge difference between the response regarding the seminal article you posted and the sociological argument that has raged. O does not seem to care about the halachic/theological position of C. In their view, the battle is waged on sociological ground. They don’t care about halachic reason.
It’s ethnocentric. And, therefore, bigoted.
laya,
I thought that when you used the word “dear” that it was a warm endearment. Then I just read the way that you used the word “honey”, and realised it was condescending. Given your penchant for dissembling, and perverting endearments, I would say there is no longer any reason for me to respect your words. Not that you’ve done anything but insult, anyway.
#
Um, Purim Hero, Conservative conversions are 100% valid and kosher. If there is a “crime†here, it is that the Orthodox won’t recognize them.
TM,
You are so right, yeah they are valid and kosher. It’s our rabbis that are not considered so. This is politics, imo, nothing else.
And recently, there is the issue of someone who converted under O auspices in Israel, and yet, according to the esteemed R’ Sacks, she is not a Jew. How to reconcile that?
ck,
Geez barefoot jewess. i think you’re keen and would be thrilled to have you over for shabbat dinner, I’d be super happy to invite you to my synagogue on shabbat. I have no problem with you at all. We just have some differences of opinion and I’m cool with that. I respect your opinions and your right to hold them – how does any of that make me intolerant or a bigot??
I am sure you could say the same to your non-Jewish friends. You are not bigoted in that respect. But your views are still, bigoted. They have nothing to do with a difference of opinion, as your posts indicate.
Knowing what I know now, I would not accept an invitation from you for Shabbat (actually I’m torn because of that Torah thing about community, ya know).
However, ANYTIME, I would be happy if we studied Torah together.
themiddle, there is a lot more to observances then following the step by step guide and going through the motions. A deli might serve kosher meat, have only kosher ingredients, ect, but if it’s open on shabbos it’s not kosher. I mean no disrespect to the conservative movement, I had a conservative bar mitzvah, and learned a lot of things while in conservative hebrew school, however, just like kashrut, certain things need to not only be done right, they have to be done by people who are universally trusted as a whole. In order to trust the Kashrut of a person they have to follow all the rules of shabbat as well as the rules of kashrut, as well as many other little integrated tidbits. It’s not that they are doing it wrong, or that they aren’t effective, it’s because the people overseeing it arn’t recognized as a whole, that we can’t have faith in the process. Just as a women who wants a Get needs to make sure everything is done correctly, even down to the spelling of the name and who is allowed to witness it, the same goes for conversion, weddings, and any other Jewish legal process. Otherwise, it isn’t that the process doesn’t work, it’s worse, the process is in suffaik, it might have worked, it might not have, and because of the dought the it creates a virtual Agunah, leaving the person, once again clearly a victom not the victomizer, in a worse place then when they started.
Our fellas here are definitely doctrinaire. It is actually fairly complex in all its permutations, but at its core is one impassable chasm and it is faith. I don’t mean practice, although that is what the focus of the discussion seems to be, I mean faith.
Middleman, sorry for the absence– vacation on the Vineyard to blame. And thanks for the thoughts.
My own faith is a kind of orthodoxy. (One of its self-indulgent conceits is the phrase ‘the One True Faith.’) It took several hundred years to grudgingly acknowledge that Protestantism wasn’t going to go away. Doctrine is one thing, self-love another, and the price for the latter has been weakness and discord when unity was most required (see, e.g., Christians under Hitler).
Um, Purim Hero, Conservative conversions are 100% valid and kosher. If there is a “crime” here, it is that the Orthodox won’t recognize them.
T_M, you’re so right, it won’t be easy, it will be horrible. I’ll stress again I take no pleasure in the disappeance of any kind of Jews. If attendance at Conservative shuls doubles tomorrow I’d be as happy about it as yuo would be. And I will be very happy if my dire predictions are not realized.
Again, I might be missing something, because I see no tension between halachah and modernity. (Though I’m at the liberal end of the orthodox continuum, so may not be representative, i.e., I believe in dinosaurs as well as the divinity of Torah.) There is a tension between some of our values and the values of the surrounding society, ie our emphasis on ethnic exclusivity. But there has always been tension between our beliefs and those of everyone else; that is not new.
Elon, I recognize your feelings, and sympathize with you. My cousin found out that her marriage was not going to be allowed to happen in Israel. Why? As it turned out, her mother had converted through a Conservative Rabbi, and the state wouldn’t recognize it. It hurt her a lot, but she was committed to Judaism anyway, having grown up her whole life believing she was Jewish, and having no reason to dought it. Anyway, to make a long story short, she ended up converting through an orxthodox Rabbi, the process was fairly easy as she had been raised Jewish, was farmilier with everything already, and already fast on her was as a Balat T’Shuva long before this even came up. Upon reflection she commented that it wasn’t Israel’s fault for not allowing the marriage, and not recognizing her mothers conservative convertion, rather she felt that it was the fault of the conservative movement for having made her mother feel that a conservative convertion was valid completely. Had she been told up front that it wasn’t going to becognized by everyone she probably would have converted orthodox in the first place. A person converts to Judaism because they care about it, or at least that’s the way it should be. That being the case, we should make every effort to welcome those ernest converts into the community by removing all burdens, if this means only recognizing orthodox convertions because they are the only ones that are universilly recognized then so be it. (that’s Halachik concerns aside.) For someone to whom being Jewish means enough to them to convert ernestly, then it shouldn’t be such a stumbling block, but rather a possitive educational spiritual experiance. While I appretiate the conservative and reform movments intentions in adopting their own convertion standards, (the desire to enable people to live happily together in marriage – Shalom Bait is increadably important, their method serves as nothing more then a cruch upon which people become dependent, requireing large amounts of phisical and spiritual therapy to remidy in the long term. If nothing other then a huministic desire to make peoples lives easier, the best thing they could do would be to direct potential converts to a source universaly recognized. It in fact borders on criminal in my opinion to mislead people into believing that their convertions are valid without first educating potential converts to the fact that their desision to convert through them not only would cause problems for them, since it wouldn’t be recognized by everyone, including the state of Israel, but would effect their children and families for generations. Those people who convert through non-orthodox means are not to blame, it is those who let them believe it’s ok who are criminal.
Tom, good to see you again, I was wondering whether our content has been lacking in quality causing you to waste your time working instead of reading our pablum.
I believe unity is a goal, and perhaps survival is as well – it is probably hardwired into our DNA that we could be, uh, snuffed out any time and there are many who wouldn’t mind seeing us snuffed out.
I think there are a couple of issues here. One, can you achieve unity with one key group seeking exclusiveness? Two, is the group seeking exclusiveness correct that their way is the only way to avoid extinction.
I don’t believe we have an answer but both sides have strong feelings, obviously. It seems absurd to me that the exclusive group excludes another group that is actually fairly close to them (Conservatives), but they do and they will. Is it disastrous? Probably not. The system is self-enclosed and does not make it easy to leave the fold without losing access to everything you’ve grown up with. For now they can have lots of babies and this also assures rapid growth over the next couple of generations. But the one key problem remains modern life and its encroachments. Somehow the Orthodox will need to figure out how to address this brave new world and they also may need to figure out how to survive if all their dire predictions regarding the demise of the non-Orthodox are true. It won’t be as easy as they think.
I’ve been reading all the posts over the last few days and i felt lik commenting:
Micheal- your Zimbabwe example was not bad, but not exactly accurate. You assume that all converts that do their conversion under the auspices of a Conservative Rabbi are not dedicated to living Zimbabwean lives. Some of us keep shomer zimbabwean shabbos, eat kosher zimbabwean, and try every day to keep the zimbabwean mitzvot. This is why it hurts, and i say from experience it hurts, when the “true blue” zimbabweans still look at us as non-zimbabweans.
I brought up an example earlier of why this view is a bit complicated. If I, as a convert of a conservative rabbi (albeit halachicly sound) were to be in a position were for instance where i lived in a city with no Conservative shul, and wanted to daven sacharit, things would get complicated. If it were discovered at an Orthodox shul that my conversion was not done with an orthodox rabbi, they may be offended when I as a non-jew in their eyes, don tallis and lay tefillin but for me it is keeping mitzvot. How do we consolidate these views?
For ck, laya, michael, etc… I don’t think as some have said that your views are bigoted, not at all. I think you have every right to hold your opinion, and shouldn’t be called bigoted or ignorant for holding them, just as those in CJ shouldn’t be called destroyers of Judaism for holding theirs.
Can’ we all just get along? 🙂
I don’t have a dog in this fight, so feel free to ignore this post, but I find the discussion quite interesting. The substantive content partly escapes me (I presumptively side with Middleman)–but it’s fascinating as an example of folks dealing with difference.
Here’s a question for whomever: is Jewish unity a widely-shared goal? And, if it is, is it best promoted by coercing agreement, or by marginalizing those who disagree? Or by acknowledging difference, conceding the integrity of other points of view, and stressing common ground?
Other faith communities have tried the first approach. With grievous results, alas.
OK, I’m off to try to find a Lutheran to hug today….
Ah, sorry, that last comment was in response to T_M’s last post, not Judy’s. But while I’m at it — I want to revisit our debate on whether the shul is or is not a Temple. I said it was not because you can enter it ritually impure; you said that means nothing because it is just the Ark that corresponds to the Beis Hamigdash. But my point still stands, as one can open the ark, put one’s hands in side, even if one is ritually impure. Not like the Temple at all. But good practice for it.
Interestingly, while its the Reform who insist most on calling their shuls “Temples,” it is the Orthodox who TREAT there shils more like the Temple by washing before davening. (Yes, I know, not all Orthodox do this, but it is a comendable practice.)
And a comment by Judi that is pertinent to this discussion:
Let’s be honest here, guys. I was reading something by Max Diamont (The Jews in America, 1979) that said (to paraphrase) that people generally “observe†at a level just below the shul they attend. For example, many people who attend Reform temples are not attuned to the tenets of Reform Judaism; they just want a place to go for their kids’ B’nei Mitzvot and the HH’s. Likewise, most Conservative Jews could care less about the actual basis for the Conservative movement, they just feel that Reform is below them and they’re intimidated by Orthodox. As for Orthodox: don’t tell me that everyone who goes to an Orthodox shul keeps as many of the 613 as they should. At any O shul I’ve ever seen, there are cars parked around the block, women in non-tsnius clothing (and without hair covered on a daily basis), and a significant percentage of the congregation who doesn’t eat strictly kosher or use the mikveh. Max Dimont argues that they’re actually Conservatives, and I’d be inclined to agree.
I hate to have to keep saying this, but there are people who belong to Conservative shuls that look and behave the same way as those who go to Orthodox shuls. As a third-generation CJ shul-goer, I’d have to disagree with the assessment that CJ is a death sentence.
As an aside, Rabbi Natan Slifkin was here last night and our audience was the largest he’s spoken to- more people than Flatbush, even. The majority of those attending belong to the Conserv shul here. Tell me again how we’re a dead-end street?
Buried in all this junk I guess, huh…either way it is a cute shebe cute line
That was actually a comment by Shem Tov, I think maybe it wasnt clear, that the middle moved here from another post.
Themiddle,
Did you make up this phrase?
“Golden Galut of America”
in youre #333
That is one of the best lines I have seen on Jewlicious yet….
That was almost as fun as good ole RSO
Barefoot, first you say to michael Judaism wasn’t “hard†as you say, and “created a stumbling block to assimilationâ€. That wasn’t the reason for the split from the Judaism of the day. I find it disingenuous of you to cite that as if those were the reasons and the truth. All your arguments are invalidated by that premise.
then i ask you to enlighten us otherwise, rather than just disagreeing and you say
If this is addressed to me, I will cite Mitzrayim and the futility of the Israelites’ labour, the futility inherent in the labour. You either know the reasons for the split, or you don’t. But I am not here to enlighten you about it as a futile gesture. Read up on it yourself if you don’t get it. If you cared, you wouldn’t be so intellectually lazy about it.
really honey, i don’t think you’re making much sense, but please, don’t accuse me of being intellectually lazy just because you’re not explaining yourself so well.
Actually, the Conservative movement seemed to have been using 14-16th Century rabbis as their authority. According to everybody here, these would be observant rabbis of the traditional vein, so you can’t really complain. Also, if we are to believe that the genetic marker is valid science, how do we interpret the old dinosaur vs. Adam & Eve question again? (That was a darn good discussion before Schmo and Muffti started duking it out to see who could prove the unprovable existence/inexistence of god).
Anyway, if I recall, it wasn’t a 97% rate, it was closer to 80% and they found it in another population group that ostensibly should have had nothing to do with the Middle East.
But in any case, if you, like me, have taken a look at Cohanim in recent times, some have red hair, some have blonde hair, some have dark eyes, some have blue eyes. I don’t see this as a big deal, but it seems to me that Conservative Judaism may have taken a more pragmatic approach to the whole Cohen/Temple issue.
When you say that Halacha is a “perfect gift,” what can I say? If you believe that, I respect your belief. Sometimes, even faithful adherents of Halacha stray a bit – I presume you’ve heard of Shabtai Zvi and those Lubavichers (not all, but some) who have convinced themselves the Rebbe was the Messiah – which suggests that it’s a darn good “gift” but perhaps not perfect, but I acknowledge that’s my personal bias. You have lots of faith, I lack some.
As for synagogues, I believe the issue is not clear cut. Some scholars believe the early synagogues were part of a larger cultic Israelite system with the Jerusalem Temple at its heart. Others, however, believe they were competing with the Temple and eventually came to replace it. While your claim that if synagogues were mini-temples, people would be ritually clean before entering makes some sense, I believe it falters on the front of pragmatism, but also of the nature of synagogues in that they replace not only the Temple, but its close surroundings. In other words, we can claim that the bima represents the Temple, the aron kodesh is the holy of holies, and the areas for seating, areas for study, and areas for festivities such as wedding halls, represent the outer portion of the Temple where congregants who were not Cohens or Levis would congregate. This becomes especially crucial once the Temple is destroyed.
I appreciate your final two paragraphs mentioning the decline of the size of the Conservative movement and your lack of joy as this happens. It is something negative that affects us all.
I don’t know whether Conservative or Reform offer long term stability for the Jewish community in America. The fact is that we are assimilating and people have gravitated to these movements because they either don’t know enough to be Orthodox, or they know enough that they choose to avoid Orthodox Judaism. If one’s sense of god is not of the same strong faith as that of the Orthodox, it’s a little hard to pretend, and much harder if one considers the restrictiveness of an Orthodox lifestyle.
But one cannot invent faith. It either exists or not. It either comes to one or it doesn’t. As I said earlier, the key then is to make the institutional life of a congregation compelling, vibrant and offering positive interaction with others. Combined with traditional practices and a sense of sanctity or even divinity that practitioners could experience, this would strengthen the bonds. Children are also a great tool for encouraging parents to participate more.
I’m adding this comment of Shem-Tov’s as well:
I agree with you, themiddle, that the Amidah is designed as a replacement for the Temple. But it is a replacement in the way that a government-in-exile is a replacement for the normal government. It is meant to tide us over until the Temple is restored. This is evidenced by the fact that one of the things we pray for is the restoration of the Temple! And when that happens, it would be nice if everyone knows more or less what to do; or to put it differently, it won’t happen unless everyone knows in advance what to do. All these issues are still relevant today; consider the fact that we still can’t go up to the area where the Holy of Holies was. Of course we don’t know quite where that is; this information gets lost over time and the Amidah serves the function, among others, of encoding some basic Temple practice in our collective conciousness.
Why treat older innovations with more respect? For one thing, they’ve stood the test of time. Keeping a people together for 2000 years of exile is an accomplishment so stupendous that we should be utterly confident of our wisdom before we tinker with it. For example, “our understanding of the world†changes every year: one year the physicists say the universe is expanding, next year its collapsing. One day its round, the next day its spiral shaped. Or something like that. I’d wait ’till we were certain of something for hundreds of years before I proposed it as a basis for rethinking the slightest detail of halachah.
But the real question is what has changed that makes the halachik system unsuited for our times or our modern understandin? I can’t think of anything, but I may be blinded by my religious beliefs.
But I think we’ll agree on the bottom line. Halachah aside, the question is, has the Conservative movement presented an approach to Judaism that will in practice have the extraordinary cohesive and preservative powers of traditional Judaism? Is this new system a vision for the future, or just for today? Of course its to early to tell, but the Conservative intermarriage and fertility rates suggest that whatever they’re selling, people aren’t buying.
I take no joy from this fact, or from the plight of any Jewish denomination — I’d be much happier if Conservative Judaism had enough force to keep itself going. I don’t think Jews should be Orthodox or nothing; I’d rather have them as Jews. But as it is, I don’t think the Conservative approach is a long-term stable equilibrium for the Golden Galut of America.
**comment by Shem Tov**
Purim Hero, are you taking writing lessons from Jewish Mother?
On Cohens, Conservatism and “recent changes in our understanding of the world.” A recent scientific discovery powerfully underscores my earlier point that we should be very careful about abandoning tradition based on what we think is modern certainties. So the Conservative movement thinks, according to themiddle, that honor to Cohens is somewhat passe because the chain of descent is hopelessly broken (it is my impression that there is also a democratic, anti-elitist element to their position).
However, in recent years scientists have isolated a “Cohen gene.” It is a Y-chromosome genetic market possesed by something like 97% of Jews who said they were Cohens, and by far far fewer people who said they weren’t. It is a unique and unsual genetic market, and based on it, the researchers extrapolated that all the Cohanim — picked from both Sephardic and Ashkenaz populations around the world — were all descended from a single male anscestor who live 3,300 hundred years ago.
This is not obscure religous zeaolot fantasy — it was published in Nature, so its as scientific as it gets (sample size was admittedly small).
So if the Conservative movement is so scientific, and if their oposition to honoring Cohanim stems solely from doubts about heredity, surely they would respond to this “new understanding” by honoring Cohens?
Well, at least the last time I went to a Conservative schul for shabbat (maybe six months ago?), there was no duhaning by the Cohanim.
The broader point, themiddle, is that just because its old doesn’t mean its bogus. Consider the amazing coincidence of our tradition as to who is a cohen and the scientific evidence confirming it. Those Pharisees got it right, the proof is in the pudding. Our tradition has transmitted to us unbroken the beating heart of our people, halachah. I admit the accomplishment is so stupendous, it is easy for us rationalists to doubt. But that is because Hashem’s gifts to our people, Torah and the law we have developed from it, is just so perfect it almost defies belief.
A final note. Synagogues are NOT “mini-temples.” One of the aspects of Reform practice I most object to is actually naming their schuls “Temples.” The inevitable consequence of this practice is complacency: if we have the Temple now, why work on creating the kind of world in which we can build the real one in Jerusalem?
Halachah of course realizes that schul is not a Temple, and to the extent it treats it as such, it is only in a metaphorical way, ie as practice. This is evidenced by the fact that one need not be ritually clean to walk into a schul. If it really partook of the essence of the Temple, this would be impossible.
By the way, themiddle, I’m indebted to your collection of the Conservative’s primary sources on treatment of Cohanim. Very interesting.
And I apologize for my very very long comments, though if you’ve read this far, I hope you found it interesting.
It’s Like Birthright. But just because it sounds to good to be true doesn’t mean it is.
Minhag Yisrael K’Mo Halacha. But that aside, extend your argument out. Any rules based on something whereby we are no longer absolutly certain, liniage, tumah/tahor, and many other things would be out the window. Marital Purity, whatever, doesn’t matter, Temple Mount, who cares lets all go up in an impure state. Just because rules no longer apply potentianlly D’Orita (from the Torah) does not mean that we shouldn’t still try to follow them. I mean, why be jewish at all, you can’t be certain your ancestors were actually jewish right, and convertion won’t work since we don’t have any real rabbis, so guess we’re all just goyim, the jews are extinct, now let’s all go out and have one big pary because non of it matters.
Personally, I’d rater view the whole thing as one big relationship, our relationship with G-d and with other people, and for that matter, all other created things. It’s dynamic, it’s got to come from some place pure, but we’ve also got to respect the other partner. We wouldn’t want a marrige absolved just because we couldn’t seem to be certain about the date of its aniversery. We need to recognize the give and take, but keep the other persons feelings and intentions to the best of our ability. So we went to the store to pick up roses for our wife, she likes the red ones, but they were all out, do I take no flowers? Or do I get her the pink ones knowing she’ll understand.
To Shem-tov –
At least according to the Internet, Conservative Jews views on Cohanim stem from the following:
Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshet (14th century) differentiates between authentic Kohanim of ancient times, and those who carry the title today. He rules that today’s Kohanim, lacking documentary evidence of clear right to the priestly title, owes any privileges and obligations not simply to halakha (law) but rather to the force of minhag (custom). [Sefer Bar Sheshet, responsum 94, Lemberg, 1805].
Rabbi Solomon Luria (16th century) rules that because of the frequent persecutions and expulsions of Jews throughout history, Kohanim lost track of their genealogy.
The Magen Avraham also rules this way, and Rabbi Jacob Emden ruled similarly.
One could argue strongly that the point of the Orthodox amidah is to keep the people together while other streams use the amidah to tear the people apart. That is, in fact an absurd statement since other movements have prayers. More strange, however, is the notion that the amidah was created to end what the Romans began 2000 years ago. The amidah was created to replace the Temple. Period. By creating rabbinic Judaism and allowing prayer in synagogues (mini-Temples) and prayer in general (sacrifice replacement), rabbinic Judaism was re-interpreting Judaism to suit current circumstances. In how many places does it say in the Torah that one may not perform sacrifices away from the Temple? The rabbis innovated according to the requirements of the time. For some reason, we treat their modifications in the same way we treat the Torah, but when a modern movement comes along and modifies again to acknowledge recent changes in our understanding of the world, somehow they are seeking to assimilate.
Puhleeze.
No Michael, it wasn’t about the hardship of Orthodox practice. It was about the congruence of science and universalistic ideas that caused Mendehlsohn to create Reform. And just to point out that you’re mistaken, he remained observant and a practicing Jew throughout his life. So “hardship” was not the issue.
The issue revolves around a changing understanding of the world through developments such as science and developments such as the enlightenment. What Reform offered was a way to marry these new developments with Judaism, an ancient religion.
And yes, Conservative Judaism emanated from the fact that many Jews rejected the “extreme” lengths to which the generation that followed Mendehlson took Reform, but don’t be too smug because Orthodox Judaism has no shortage of its own streams, sub-streams and even cults that diverge in philosophy.
Now I want you to consider carefully, Michael, that you acknowledge that the Mishna and Gemara would be different today and combine that with your comment earlier acknowledging that the laws we have in Rabbinic Judaism stem from a period of spiritual flux and concern after the destruction of the Temples. Orthodox Judaism gives the weight of divine authority to these writings. They are considered as valued as the Torah and its divine authority.
Consider the following: if you believe that men wrote these important writings (not the Torah – all other aspects of Rabbinic Judaism), then why would they have equal weight to the torah given to us divinely? Can’t we respect and value these sources, but also acknowledge that they are authored by men and therefore men today might have similar intellectual capacity to modify these traditions and customs accordingly?
Think about it. We Jews don’t elevate men to be gods. So why would we give these men, regardless of how brilliant or knowledgeable they may have been, god-like authority?
As I understand Conservative Judaism, it posits that we share in the ability to contribute to this authority. Obviously this makes a great deal of sense to many people.
By the way, it’s nice to have you join us as a poster. Welcome.
No, that was in fact the reason for the split. German Jews wanted to participate in gentile society without converting to Christianity. That is where Reform Judaism arose. Judaism is hard, and it is a stumbling block to assimilation. That’s the point. So it had to be overhauled in order for Jews to participate more fully in their non-Jewish surroundings. And, as T_M said, Conservative Judaism was formed in reaction, because some people thought the reformers went way too far. And even if I wasn’t right (even though I am), I don’t see how that invalidates every argument I make.
To quote Rav Marley: “If you would know your history, you would know where you’re comin’ from.”
T_M, I admit the Mishna and Gemara would be different if they were written in 1997 instead of 400. But certain principles of Judaism, like, for example, the clear prohibition against lighting fires on Shabbat, are just not broken, and the Enlightenment does not change that.
BTW, laya, you have not really answered any of my questions.
laya,
If you offered it as your own experience, then I would have known it- there would have not been any confusion. Clearly, I didn’t get it. My mistake.
Okay, so you are saying C is not for you and that though you have no problem with C people you would have a problem with marrying a convert, right?
then please, enlighten us.
laya,
If this is addressed to me, I will cite Mitzrayim and the futility of the Israelites’ labour, the futility inherent in the labour. You either know the reasons for the split, or you don’t. But I am not here to enlighten you about it as a futile gesture. Read up on it yourself if you don’t get it. If you cared, you wouldn’t be so intellectually lazy about it.
no, i offered that AS MY EXPERIENCE.
laya,
You trashed it in offering your own experience as truth and fact and a reason that C Judaism was not viable.
then please, enlighten us.
Michael,
Judaism wasn’t “hard” as you say, and “created a stumbling block to assimilation”. That wasn’t the reason for the split from the Judaism of the day. I find it disingenuous of you to cite that as if those were the reasons and the truth. All your arguments are invalidated by that premise.
where did i trash it dear?
laya,
C doesn’t work for you. Why does that mean you have to trash it?
Michael, any prayers that replace sacrifice came after destruction of the Temple. You will recall there is another Temple destruction and a centuries old exile before the Pharisees came along.
But you did acknowledge what I had hoped you will acknowledge, which is that much of what you observe as an Orthodox Jew is created by men.
Why would a Jewish man, rabbi or woman, be a better indicator for you of how you should practice, than somebody who has read what they knew and has added the 2000 years of additional knowledge to their base of knowledge?
I think you are being condescending when you claim that Reform or Conservative are merely reactions because “Orthodox is too hard.” Do you really believe that?
Reform developed because of the enlightenment, not because Orthodox was too hard.
Conservative developed because many felt that Reform had rejected tenets of Judaism which deserved to be maintained, even though it was also important to acknowledge that the world had changed. Those are philosophical differences and not differences of convenience. You obviously disagree with these philosophies, but that doesn’t mean they have less merit than those philosophies born in the 4th Century, the 1st Century or during the Babylonian exile.
Your faith that Rav Pappa wouldn’t be caught behind the wheel of a car in the 4th Century is merely conjecture. The fact is that science as we know it, the enlightenment, the Reformation and various movements that followed the 4th Century would have changed the talmud, mishna, gemera and any “Oral Law” if these civilization-changing changes had come about before the 4th Century.
I find your answer about the minyan to be a little disingenuous. Boys who are younger than 13 know they will be counted one day in a minyan. Yet girls know they will never be counted. If they are equals, then why not? They’re not obligated to pray 3 times a day but men are? Why? They’re equal after all. Right?
As for Zimbabwe, that is a good example. Except that I don’t recall electing Orthodox as my government representatives. They seem to be self-appointed.
jewess, Not everyone gets to be a convert or a baal tshuvah, but that’s not their fault. It dont mean your brainless just cause you grew up with it you know?
You end up conforming a bit to any kind of social circle you are in, be it orthodox and secular. There are people in every way of life/lifestyle who go thru never questioning their choices or beliefs.
Of course its better to choice, and examine and have kavana at all times, i dont think we disagree.
I dont quite know what you wanted me to address, but maybe I’m just too tired. it is after 2am here, and i do need to be going to sleep.
RE: marriage. I live and function within an orthodox stream here in jerusalem. It is a way of life for me, and one I want to continue when I am married. Its a way of life i believe in. cool?
in practice, C doesnt work for me. clear?
I am so going to bed now
good post michael
T_M, while evidence indicates that probably the Amidah and certainly the synagogue predate the destruction of the Temple, I see what you’re trying to say. My problem is this: when the post-Temple additions to Judaism were made, they were made with the idea in mind of sustaining the Jewish people in the face of a great theological/spiritual crisis, and also looking back on Jewish text and tradition to find a way to cope with this crisis; the idea that prayer was acceptable in the place of sacrifice is in the Prophets and was in fact supported long before the destruction of the Temple by certain Jews. Whereas Reform Judaism and to an admittedly lesser extent Conservative Judaism were created essentially because Orthodox Judaism was hard and created a stumbling block towards assimilation. Their theology came later. That is the difference.
So, to simplify, 2000 years ago, the Pharisees sat down and said, “The locus of Jewish worship is gone. How can we continue to serve G-d in a valid way? Let’s study our texts and tradition.” So they came up with the prayer service as we know it.
Whereas with modern Jewish offshoots, it went more like this: a group of secular German Jews sat down and said, “We want to become assimilated into European society. Our problem is that our religion is too foreign and Eastern. Let’s get rid of the Hebrew and put in an organ and get rid of those dietary laws so we can not only look like German Protestants, but eat with them too.” So they did that. Then, awhile later, after the fact, somebody sat down and hashed out a theological justification for it.
And it is condescending and wrong to assert that the rules of Orthodox Judaism are from the 4th century and that rules pertaining to the 20th are all a product of Conservative Judaism or Reform Judaism. For example, as we all know, Orthodox Jews do not drive on Shabbat. This is a 20th century law. Orthodox Judaism is just as flexible as Conservative Judaism, it merely refuses to let certain precepts be violated out of convenience. If cars had existed in Babylon 1600 years ago, I’m sure you wouldn’t see Rav Pappa or whoever behind the wheel on Shabbat.
I do believe men and women are equal in front of G-d. Women aren’t counted in a minyan because they are not obligated to do the whole three-times-a-day-group-prayer thing. Should we also count boys in under 13 in a minyan to preserve their feelings?
And no, I don’t find it disgusting. If I love Zimbabwe and perceive of myself as a Zimbabwean, am I one, or am I not really one until I move to Zimbabwe, become a citizen according to the law, speak the language and participate in the culture? And if I find something unappealing about Zimbabwean culture and decide to make up my own definition of what being a Zimbabwean is, would it be disgusting for the true blue Zimbabweans to reject me? (Man. Zimbabwe. What a great name.) If they rejected me, would it hurt my feelings? Sure. Would they have every right to, as it’s their culture and their prerogative to make the rules? Yes.
T_M, posting information about how close movements can be won’t solve the problem if there are still major fundamental differences. I mean, hell, Judaism and Islam are similar in many ways, but pointing that out to the Ayatollah probably won’t get him to stop pointing those missiles at Israel.
laya,
’m relatively ok with conservative judaism IN THEORY. I’ve said that. It’s the in practice that doesn’t work for me. I’ve said that too. I CAN’T marry a conserv. convert for the simple fact that no orthodox rabbi would marry me.
What am I missing here? There are C Jews who practise.
And also, no O rabbi will marry you to a C Jew? So, on what do you base your decision? Some rabbi, or a deeper belief? Because if it is only due to the rabbi then what thought have you put into your reasons for not marrying out of Orthodoxy? What will that rabbi be telling you that resonates for you?
I am curious.
ck, you’ve been emailed.
The point of the links was just to provide a resource on Reform. I’d say more, but I have to save it up for the day when I do a Reform Judaism post….
Geez barefoot jewess. i think you’re keen and would be thrilled to have you over for shabbat dinner, I’d be super happy to invite you to my synagogue on shabbat. I have no problem with you at all. We just have some differences of opinion and I’m cool with that. I respect your opinions and your right to hold them – how does any of that make me intolerant or a bigot??
Aw, TM,
Thanks. I get it. It just hurts and pisses me off sometimes to hear it over and over and over and over and over again. Other than that, everything is copacetic :).
laya,
It means you chose.
TM,
Why the links? Your point is what? I admire Reform. Some of the most amazing Jews I have met are Reform. I don’t want to read another link. Care to enlighten me?
Barefoot, as I’ve said in this discussion before, the ones who reject you as a Jew remain a minority and even they are unable to answer why you should be treated any differently than Ruth.
sure, mind clarifing that so i know what you mean?
Ck,
If you like that gay parade stuff, I can refer you to lots happening things locally here…
Just Joking…
laya,
Apart from your “huh”, care to address the rest of the comment?
Yes, TM, you are right, the convert is hurt.
I think what I find most astounding is the belief that because I am not really Jewish to some, it is open season. Simple human empathy suggests a rather more sensitive approach. Jewishly, that approach carries even more weight, about the stranger. IMO, keep your bigotry to yourself if you actually care to tread that narrow bridge.
Sent.
ck at jewlicious dot com works. I just haven’t set up the other accounts yet. Sorry! Email me. The eagle lands sunday afternoon at 1 pm. So does the muffti. Govern yourselves accordingly – lock up your daughters and hide your silver away….
Netsach, he has posted numerous times since I asked him why he was still posting here on a site promoting the Destruction of Judaism. It was fairly hypocritical of him to do so.
Fact is, I find people observing from choice rather than from conformity in C. However, I can’t deny that there are people like you who put a lie to the idea of conformity and “life styleâ€.
huh?
Oh, btw, ck, since the Jewlicious email doesn’t work any more, and since I don’t know where you are, I have no way of reaching you to schedule things.
gee themiddle,
You are right, I didn’t spank Joe schmo when
he called you what he did.
You did tell him to leave in so many words….
was that so?
I am not trying to be an authority here. I am
just suggesting as a course of my opinoin that
it is not becoming of an editor of a Jewish site
that promotes open mindedness.
I have tried really hard at seeking forgiveness
for “dumbass” things I have said. I have said
my share of wrong things that I regret.
But I am not an editor or whatever here… so I
am just offering opinion.
“and wow, if jewlicious sees your polite side, I feel sorry for anyone who has seen your wrath, eh?”
Correct. 😉
Barefoot, you can learn more about Reform here.
and this will be a useful exegesis.
laya,
Btw, there are some cool orthodox egal places in Jtown where I’m pretty sure you can leyn and be counted in a minyan as well.
But now, could you define what you mean as the difference between lifestyle and way of life? I’m not clear.
I did find that at Shira Chadasha in Jerusalem. It was so amazing. It confuses me. I loved it. The singing was out of this world from the women’s section and the men’s. Such kavannah. I could wear my tallit. Women leyned, carried the Torah (on the women’s side).
Did the drash. Had aliyot, along with the men. It was a choir of angels. If that were Orthodoxy, there would be little difference between that and C Judaism, except for the fact that we don’t agree on the misinai thing.
Thank you for being curious about Jewish “lifestyle” v “way of life” thing.
I have noticed that born into frum Jews especially just live the life that Mordechai Kaplan has described as “religious civilization”, without the evolving part. Which means you get up in the morning, and there a prescribed rituals until you go to bed, and G-d doesn’t enter into it a whole lot as a personal connection, just more so as an artifact. And your immediate society keeps you going, validates your conformity, and even may pressure you into it. Society is great for the outward essentials that identify you as belonging to a certain group.
As for “way of life”- well that is Torah and halacha- structures that surround and validate belief- belief, not acquiescence or surrender- a devotion- a path that someone follows willingly not out of culture, but out of decision and understanding, as I imagine you have chosen- it centres arounbd belief, weird as that may be for Jews to hear
Fact is, I find people observing from choice rather than from conformity in C. However, I can’t deny that there are people like you who put a lie to the idea of conformity and “life style”.
i dont believe I said anything in that instance, I figure you can handle your own battles.
And what issue exactly am i avoiding dear? cause I’m sick of repeating myself. I’m relatively ok with conservative judaism IN THEORY. I’ve said that. It’s the in practice that doesn’t work for me. I’ve said that too. I CAN’T marry a conserv. convert for the simple fact that no orthodox rabbi would marry me.
and wow, if jewlicious sees your polite side, I feel sorry for anyone who has seen your wrath, eh?
but well said michael. good posts on your blog too, and where the f are you these days? call me!
Michael, this discussion is not about asking anybody for acceptance. It is about opening people’s eyes to the ideas behind other streams. What is apparent, however, is that few of the people who continue to dismiss these other streams have actually read or evaluated what I posted.
Your comment about how Reform and Conservative are a product of their time is correct, but so is rabbinic Judaism as a whole. What makes decisions made in the 4th Century more valid than those made after it was proven that the world was round? Why do you think the laws of the 4th Century Judaism are more applicable than laws that relate to the 20th Century?
Do you say the Amidah? Why? If they created the Amidah and synagogues to react to the fact that the Temple was destroyed, how can you give that greater credibility than a knowledgeable rabbi of a different movement reacting to our changed understanding of the world.
Do you think that women are equal to men in front of god? If so, why can they not be part of a minyan? Do you think that this has anything to do with our current understanding of women as equals to men? Isn’t this an example of something that times influence?
As to your final point about acceptance by the Orthodox, don’t you find it disgusting that a person could convert to Judaism, love Judaism, live as a Jew, practice as a Jew, perceive oneself as a Jew but be rejected by many Jews as a non-Jew? Perhaps you’re not disgusted, but you can be sure that the convert is going to be personally hurt. And yes, this rejection of the convert could have other repercussions on that person’t life. Fortunately, other streams of Judaism do offer a robust institutional and Jewish life and they can live just fine without the Orthodox. It’s a shame that this division exists, but I guess even posting information showing how close movements can be isn’t enough to bridge the problem. It would be nice, however, if those who reject these other streams stop taking resources from those who are not exclusive of others.
Good post Michael! I wholeheartedly agree.
No Laya, you are avoiding the topic. My post was not all about philosophy and goes much further. Even if it were all philosophy, what is your claim that this philosophy is false? Would you marry a Conservative convert? If not, why not?
And Laya, I didn’t say I don’t insult, I said that you have no idea what it’s like when I “dish it out” because I have been very polite on Jewlicious. The reason I’ve been polite, btw, is to prevent the strife caused by personal attacks.
Now, I may have missed it, but what did you say to Schmo when he called me a Destroyer of Judaism?
Why is it offensive or bigoted to state that something conflicts with one’s religion when said thing actually does conflict with one’s religion?
Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism are in conflict with Orthodox Judaism. One could be a Reform Jew, a Conservative Jew, an Orthodox Jew, or a Jainist for all I care and realize that.
As far as religion and culture, they are inextricably intertwined in Judaism. Jewish religion is in itself a culture, at least when practiced according to Jewish tradition — it wasn’t until German secular Jews wanted to assimilate without converting to Christianity and thus created Reform Judaism that the concept of “be a Jew in the home and man in the street” arose. And like it or not, the Orthodox tradition, while subject to evolution, is much older than either Reform or Conservative, which were reactionary movements whose theological justifications were composed post facto after their respective schisms.
Anyway, if Conservative or Reform or whatever Jews think that they have the true version of Judaism, should it really bother them what Orthodox Jews think? If one doesn’t believe that Orthodox Judaism is necessary, why should one go around seeking acceptance from Orthodox Jews?
ck,
I am willing to address what is important to you. I guess I failed in sussing it out. I am a ready ear.
TM,
I did not know about the R hechshering deal, that there are no rabbis to do this given the views of R.
Majorly cooool! This makes perfect sense. It makes the whole Reform hechshering shrimp encrusted deal even more suspect and kinda, yes, trivial, and a BAD, not to mention, intellectually dishones,t example.
Though I guess I would have been majorly aggrieved to see such a hechsher. I’m thinking if I were willing to give my fellow Jews the benefit of the doubt, even Reform Jews (who are waaaay too easy to trash), I would think that this is some meshuganah thing happening and not load it with mucho import. On a good day.
Barefoot Jewess: Bigoted? I admit that I am partial to my own people, but I am very tolerant of others. Like I said, do whatever you want to do, believe whatever you want to believe, but don’t call me a bigot if I respectfully disagree.
As far as the personal belief vs. religious belief thing? Orthodoxy is simply something I strive for. It’s my ideal. I’ll never say that Orthodoxy approves of scantily clad photos of Paris Hilton. Anyhow, you’re not really dealing with any of the issues I brought up. This conversation is getting hella-repetitive. I think I’ve pretty much said what I needed to say (over and over and over again). Feel free to reread my comments if anything remains unclear.
ck,
Conservative and Reform Judaism advocates things I don’t believe in. It’s not like the difference between Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jewry, the differences are fundamental.
You may not believe but in that lack of belief you do not stand for O Judaism and yet that is the way you come across. What you are actually asserting, is a personal belief, which, btw, I find bigoted.
And yeah, some of your beliefs are offensive. That sense of offense is not a choice. It is a response. Some of your beliefs, IMO, have little to do with religion and a whole lot to do with culture, but you use religion to justify them.
It’s okay – your beliefs. Just don’t use religion to justify them.