It seems that we’ve been going over and over the same debate about the streams of Judaism. It is not only tiresome, but it is demoralizing to watch the unfortunate but undeniably negative perceptions of other streams that we’ve been reading on Jewlicious. As Rabbi Aviner of Ateret Cohanim Yeshiva has pointed out, we are brothers and one nation, and that should be one of the values that drives our discussions. While debates such as these have a long and prominent history (Saducees and Pharisees, anyone?), I couldn’t help but feel that perhaps it might improve matters if people actually had some information at their fingertips.
So I’m going to do some cutting and pasting and borrowing of content from sources that I believe will provide a short overview of Conservative Judaism. This is a long post, but I believe it’s worth the read, and encourage those who are interested to go directly to the sources by clicking on the provided links.
1. I located this easy-to-understand “FAQ” by Rabbi Chaim Weiner about the Masorti (masorti means “traditional” in Hebrew) movement, as the Conservative movement is known outside the U.S.:
The basic beliefs of a Masorti Jew are no different than those of traditional Judaism. We believe in a God who created the world. We believe in a covenant between God and the people of Israel. We believe that we are comrnanded, as a part of that covenant, to live a special lifestyle, spelled out in the Torah and articulated in “halacha – Jewish law”. We accept that this law is defined by the classical books of the rabbis: the Mishnah, the Talmud, and thereafter refined through the codes and responsa.
The main principle that defines conservative Judaism is our relationship to modern science and scholarship.
What role do the results of modern studies, particularly in the fields of history, archaeology, bible scholarship and literature play in the understanding of our tradition?
The Masorti/Conservative approach to this question is unequivocal: The results of these sciences cannot be ignored. They must be used to inform our religious beliefs, to help us understand our tradition better. They cannot be rejected outright, without careful consideration of their claims.
There are many areas where the results of scholarship and tradition seem to contradict. In these instances it is our position that we must interpret the tradition in a way that it doesn’t contradict our knowledge from other sources. This is not a matter of convenience. The only reason to follow a tradition is because it is true. If we accept our tradition as truth, then it must agree with the facts as we know them. This means that, although we believe in the same things as traditional Judaism, how we understand those things is influenced by the findings of modern science and modern thought.
Do Masorti Jews believe that the Torah comes from heaven?
Bible scholarship has shown that the Torah has a history. It is difficult to accept the claim that the Torah was handed down from heaven at a certain point in history in the literal sense. We therefore understand this term as a metaphor to mean that the Torah is divine and that it reflects God’s will. Research can help us understand the process of how the Torah came about, but will probably never give us a full picture. From our point of view, the idea that a concept as complex as “how God communicates to people” could be reduced to a literal description is unacceptable.
How can you consider the findings of scholarship to be true? There are always different schools of thought, and the positions of the scholars constantly change as new information becomes available.
True. Science is not infallible and the more we know, the better we understand things. We do not accept modern notions as “Torah from Sinai” as truths to be defended no matter what. Every finding must be accepted for what it is: a guess, a fact, an interpretation or a most probable explanation. We must always be open to learning more. However, the more information we have, the more that evidence from different fields of study agrees, the closer we get to the truth. The fact that one is not absolutely sure doesn’t mean that we should just deny facts or accept things which are simply impossible. Our beliefs must always be reviewed by our critical understanding. Not because we are perfect, but because our faculty of reason is what God has given us, and we have no better tool to use to search for the truth. Our reason is not perfect, but it’s the best we have.
If you do not believe that the Torah was given by God literally, does this not undermine your commitment to observe the tradition?
No. If one believes that the commandments are God’s will, it does not matter how you understand how they were given. You would still feel bound to observe them.
The role that halacha plays: When we looked at ideology, we saw that there were many similarities between the ideology of Masorti and that of traditional Judaism. This similarity cuts through to halacha.
What is halacha? The Torah tells us of a special covenant between the Jewish people and God. As part of this covenant Jews have been given many commandments. The commandments of the Torah are of a general nature. We do not observe the commandments as they are in the Torah. There is a whole literature – the Mishnah, the Talmuds, the Midrash, the responsa literature and the codes -which explains and develops the commandments and translates them into rules for everyday living.
These rules, the way of life of the observant Jew, are the halacha. The halacha is far from being a closed book; everything being clear-cut and sealed in stone. There is not a page in the Talmud which is free from debate, not an issue over which there is not some difference of opinion. The halacha is dynamic. It has within it the ability to grow and to respond to changes. However, despite differences of opinion and the freedom that exist within the halacha, there have emerged guidelines which help define the system. Over time the Babylonian Talmud has become the final authority in Jewish law. Precedents have been set and practice has been established. Even when confronting new realities, the precedents of the past and the underlying principles which have been established are to be taken into consideration when deciding how the halacha applies today.
All that has been said so far is true for both Masorti and Orthodox Judaism. Where does Masorti differ?
The differences are not in how halacha is understood, but in how it is applied. Whenever a rabbi is called upon to give a ruling, in addition to determining the halacha, he must also judge the situation he is ruling upon. As Masorti rabbis understand the world differently than Orthodox rabbis, the way they apply the halacha differs.
This difference in the way we look at the world manifests itself in many ways. Masorti Jews respect academic research as a means to understand the world better and therefore the results of this research are brought to bear in our halachic decisions. Masorti Jews accept many of the values of modern society. We are integrated in the modern world and our halachic decisions reflect this integration. Rather than trying to set Jews apart from general society, we seek ways to make it possible to be an observant Jew within it. Our constituency includes many Jews who have not made a full commitment to observance. As a result of this, the importance of enabling “somewhat” observant Jews to play a fuller role in the community is an important consideration in our decisions.
The biggest difference in our approach centres on our attitude to change. Our society is characterized by rapid social change. Is this change good? Should we welcome it? Do you resist it? It is in those areas of our lives where the greatest social changes have occurred where the differences between the movements in Judaism are most apparent.
The most prominent example of the need to take a position regarding change is when we come to define the role of women in the synagogue. In our secular society the role of women has radically been changed. Women today are fully integrated in society, are educated, hold positions of power and share equal rights. The halacha grew in an age where none of this was true. The main challenge facing all traditional groups today is how to respond to this change. It is the Masorti position that it is the ability to address itself to change that has kept the halacha alive through the centuries. We maintain that failure to apply the tools of change that exist within the halacha to the changes in our world today will leave the halacha as irrelevant to most Jews.
Although these attitudes are wide reaching, it should be stressed that in most cases, there is no difference between the interpretations of Masorti and of Orthodox rabbis.
2. Ismar Schorsch, widely considered as one of the leading thinkers of the Conservative movement wrote The Sacred Cluster which defines the seven core beliefs and values that define the movement. Here are some selected (that is, selected by yours truly, so please forgive any hiccups and errors, I am doing my best) excerpts:
The Sacred Cluster
There are seven such core values, to my mind, that imprint Conservative Judaism with a principled receptivity to modernity balanced by a deep reverence for tradition. Whereas other movements in modern Judaism rest on a single tenet, such as the autonomy of the individual or the inclusiveness of God’s revelation at Sinai (Torah mi-Sinai), Conservative Judaism manifests a kaleidoscopic cluster of discrete and unprioritized core values. Conceptually they fall into two sets – three national and three religious – which are grounded and joined to each other by the overarching presence of God,who represents the seventh and ultimate core value. The dual nature of Judaism as polity and piety, a world religion that never transcended its national origins, is unified by God. In sum, a total of seven core values corresponding to the most basic number in Judaism’s construction of reality.
The Centrality of Modern Israel
Hebrew: The Irreplaceable Language of Jewish Expression
Devotion to the Ideal of Klal Yisrael
The Defining Role of Torah in the Reshaping of Judaism
The Study of Torah
The Governance of Jewish Life by Halakha
Belief in God
The Centrality of Modern Israel
For Conservative Jews, as for their ancestors, Israel is not only the birthplace of the Jewish people, but also its final destiny. Sacred texts, historical experience and liturgical memory have conspired to make it for them, in the words of Ezekiel, “the most desirable of all lands (20:6).” Its welfare is never out of mind. Conservative Jews are the backbone of Federation leadership in North America and the major source of its annual campaign. They visit Israel, send their children over a summer or for a year and support financially every one of its worthy institutions.(1) Israeli accomplishments on the battlefield and in the laboratory, in literature and politics, fill them with pride. Their life is a dialectic between homeland and exile. No matter how prosperous or assimilated, they betray an existential angst about anti-Semitism that denies them a complete sense of at-homeness anywhere in the diaspora.
Hebrew: The Irreplaceable Language of Jewish Expression
Hebrew as the irreplaceable language of Jewish expression is the second core value of Conservative Judaism. Its existence is coterminous with that of the Jewish people and the many layers of the language mirror the cultures in which Jews perpetuated Judaism. It was never merely a vehicle of communication, but part of the fabric and texture of Judaism. Words vibrate with religious meaning, moral values and literary associations. Torah and Hebrew are inseparable and Jewish education was always predicated on mastering Hebrew. Hebrew literacy is the key to Judaism, to joining the unending dialectic between sacred texts, between Jews of different ages, between God and Israel. To know Judaism only in translation is, to quote Bialik, akin to kissing the bride through the veil.
Devotion to the Ideal of Klal Yisrael
The third core value is an undiminished devotion to the ideal of klal yisrael, the unfractured totality of Jewish existence and the ultimate significance of every single Jew. In the consciousness of Conservative Jews, there yet resonates the affirmation of haverim kol yisrael (all Israel is still joined in fellowship) – despite all the dispersion, dichotomies and politicization that history has visited upon us, Jews remainunited in a tenacious pilgrimage of universal import.(3) It is that residue of Jewish solidarity that makes Conservative Jews the least sectarian or parochial members of the community, that renders them the ideal donor of Federation campaigns and brings them to support unstintingly every worthy cause in Jewish life. Often communal needs will prompt them to compromise the needs of the movement.
Such admirable commitment to the welfare of the whole does not spring from any special measure of ethnicity, as is so often ascribed to Conservative Jews. Rather, I would argue that it is nurtured by the acute historical sense cultivated by their leadership. In opposition to exclusively rational, moral or halahkic criteria for change, Conservative Judaism embraced a historical romanticism that rooted tradition in the normative power of a heroic past. To be sure, history infused an awareness of the richness and diversity of the Jewish experience. But it also presumed to identify a normative Judaism and invest it with the sanctity of antiquity.
The Defining Role of Torah in the Reshaping of Judaism
The fourth core value is the defining role of Torah in the reshaping of Judaism after the loss of political sovereignty in 63 B.C.E. and the Second Temple in 70 C.E. to the Romans. In their stead, the Rabbis fashioned the Torah into a portable homeland, the synagogue into a national theater for religious drama and study into a form of worship. Conservative Judaism never repudiated any of these remarkable transformations. Chanting the Torah each Shabbat is still the centerpiece of the Conservative service…
…For Conservative Jews, the Torah is no less sacred, if less central, than it was for their pre-modern ancestors. I use the word “sacred” advisedly. The Torah is the foundation text of Judaism, the apex of an inverted pyramid of infinite commentary, not because it is divine, but because it is sacred, that is, adopted by the Jewish people as its spiritual font. The term skirts the divisive and futile question of origins, the fetid swamp of heresy. The sense of individual obligation, of being commanded, does not derive from divine authorship, but communal consent. The Written Torah, no less than the Oral Torah, reverberates with the divine-human encounter, with “a minimum of revelation and a maximum of interpretation.” It is no longer possible to separate the tinder from the spark. What history can attest is that the community of Israel has always huddled in the warmth of the flame.
The Study of Torah
Accordingly, the study of Torah, in both the narrow and extended sense, is the fifth core value of Conservative Judaism. As a canon without closure, the Hebrew Bible became the unfailing stimulus for midrash, the medium of an I-Thou relationship with the text and with God. Each generation and every community appropriated the Torah afresh through their own interpretive activity, creating a vast exegetical dialogue in which differences of opinion were valid and preserved. The undogmatic preeminence of Torah spawned a textually-based culture that prized individual creativity and legitimate conflict.
What Conservative Judaism brings to this ancient and unfinished dialectic are the tools and perspectives of modern scholarship blended with traditional learning and empathy. The full meaningof sacred texts will always elude those who restrict the range of acceptable questions, fear to read contextually and who engage in willful ignorance. It is precisely the sacredness of these texts that requires of serious students to employ every piece of scholarly equipment to unpack their contents. Their power is crippled by inflicting upon them readings that no longer carry any intellectual cogency. Modern Jews deserve the right to study Torah in consonance with their mental world and not solely through the eyes of their ancestors. Judaism does not seek to limit our thinking, only our actions.
This is not to say that earlier generations got it all wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. To witness their deep engagement with Torah and Talmud is to tap into inexhaustible wellsprings of mental acuity and spiritual power. It is to discover the multiple and ingenious ways – critical, midrashic, kabbalistic and philosophical – in which they explicated these texts. Like them, Conservative scholars take their placein an unbroken chain of exegetes, but with their own arsenal of questions, resources, and methodologies. No matter how differently done, the study of Torah remains at the heart of the Conservative spiritual enterprise.
Moreover, it is pursued with the conviction that critical scholarship will yield new religious meaning for the inner life of contemporary Jews…
The Governance of Jewish Life by Halakha
The sixth core value is the governance of Jewish life by halakha, which expresses the fundamental thrust of Judaism to concretize ethics and theology into daily practice. The native language of Judaism has always been the medium of deeds. Conservative Jews are rabbinic and not biblical Jews. They avow the sanctity of the Oral Torah erected by Rabbinic Judaism alongside the Written Torah as complementary and vital to deepen, enrich and transform it. Even if in their individual lives they may often fall short on observance, they generally do not ask of their rabbinic leadership to dismantle wholesale the entire halakhic system in order to translate personal behavior into public policy. Imbued with devotion to klal yisrael and a pervasive respect for tradition, they are more inclined to sacrifice personal autonomy for a reasonable degree of consensus and uniformity in communal life.
Collectively, the injunctions of Jewish law articulate Judaism’s deep-seated sense of covenant, a partnership with the divine to finish the task of creation. Individually, the mitzvot accomplish different ends. Some serve to harness and focus human energy by forging a regimen made up of boundaries, standards and rituals. To indulge in everything we are able to do, does not necessarily enhance human happiness or well-being. Some mitzvot provide the definitions and norms for the formation of community, while others still generate respites of holiness in which the feeling of God’s nearness pervades and overwhelms.
The institution of Shabbat, perhaps the greatest legacy of the Jewish religious imagination, realizes all three. The weekly rest it imposes both humbles and elevates. By desisting from all productive work for an entire day, Jews acknowledge God’s sovereignty over the world and the status of human beings as mere tenants and stewards…
…[Does not lead] Conservative Judaism to assert blithely that the halakha is immutable. Its historical sense is simply too keen. The halakhic system, historically considered, evinces a constant pattern of responsiveness, change and variety. Conservative Judaism did not read that record as carte blanche for a radical revision or even rejection of the system, but rather as warrant for valid adjustment where absolutely necessary. The result is a body of Conservative law sensitive to human need, halakhic integrity and the worldwide character of the Jewish community…
Belief in God
I come, at last, to the seventh and most basic core value of Conservative Judaism: its belief in God. It is this value which plants the religious nationalism and national religion that are inseparable from Judaism in the universal soil of monotheism. Remove God, the object of Israel’s millennial quest, and the rest will soon unravel. But this is precisely what Conservative Judaism refused to do, even after the Holocaust. Abraham Joshua Heschel, who came to the United States in March, 1940, to emerge after the war as the most significant Jewish theologian of the modern period, placed God squarely at the center of his rich exposition of the totality of the Jewish religious experience.
To speak of God is akin to speaking about the undetected matter of the universe. Beyond the reach of our instruments, it constitutes at least 90 per cent of the mass in the universe. Its existence is inferred solely from its effects: the gravitational force, otherwise unaccounted for, that it exerts on specific galactic shapes and rotational patterns and that it contributes in general to holding the universe together.
Similarly, Heschel was wont to stress the partial and restricted nature of biblical revelation.
“With amazing consistency the Bible records that the theophanies witnessed by Moses occurred in a cloud. Again and again we hear that the Lord ‘called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud’ (Exodus 24:16)…
We must neither willfully ignore nor abuse by allegorization these important terms. Whatever specific fact it may denote, it unequivocally conveys to the mind the fundamental truth that God was concealed even when He revealed, that even while His voice became manifest, His essence remained hidden.”(6)
For Judaism, then, God is a felt presence rather than a visible form, a voice rather than a vision. Revelation tends to be an auditory and not a visual experience. The grandeur of God is rarely compromised by the hunger to see or by the need to capture God in human language. And yet, God’s nearness and compassion are sensually asserted. The austerity of the one and the intimacy of the other are the difference between what we know and what we feel. God is both remote and nearby, transcendent and immanent. To do justice to our head and heart, that is, to the whole person, Judaism has never vitiated the polarity that lies in the midst of its monotheistic faith…
Thanks thanks milliyet
I’m Messianic and am a little shocked at the infighting among ‘am Yisra’el here and at the proselytizing by the haredim. I don’t agree with all Masorti or Reform points, but I see the Masortim and Reform Jews here trying to be tolerant and informative more than I’ve seen in many other Masorti and Reform circles. Can’t the haredim simply learn about lo-haredi Yahadut and agree to disagree?
Hi ! Pessover sameaj ! jag Pesaj sameaj to old of us !
I want to say something in spanish for the people tooking in this langue and beacause my inglish is bad !
Feliz Pesaj casher ve sameaj ! y a todos los judios estan invitados a ver y participar de Arca juive franco-espagniole ! que funcionara en Pesaj con cuenta gotas ! sitio msn grupos
Shalom
http://groups.msn.com/arcajuivefranco-espagniole/_whatsnew.msnw
Being raised in Mississippi as a Jew, you had basically 2 choices – Reform, or Non-Practicing. After moving away from there to a larger Jewish community, I realized that the “Reform” of the larger community was too radical for me (I always insisted that my son cover his head while in the synagogue, the “Rabbi” didn’t even do that, several parents brought HAM to the end of year picnic, etc). Since I didn’t know anyone at the Orthodox Shul – all of my older relatives had passed – I went to the Conservative one. Now, I keep Kosher and am Shabbos observant. Although I’m not “Orthodox” ( a really horrible term if you think about it – I would prefer Traditional), in the “Orthodox” sense of the word, I have come a long way. Do I find myself growing in my Judaism? Yes. Do I typically find the “Orthodox” community unwelcoming? Unfortunately, yes. When you try to use the Cookie Cutter all or nothing comments, it really reinforces, at least in my mind, that it really doesn’t matter how much I’ve grown if I’m still considered “Conservative. I think, in my heart, that less time should be spent figuring out what our differences are. I think a lot more time should be spent, especially by the “Orthodox” community, as they are the most traditional, to helping us who know and understand less, but want to, to learn, instead of trying to outcast us more. I took my children to Disney this summer, and ran into an “Orthodox” family. I greeted them with a hearty “Shalom Ya’ll” and even directed them to where I knew they could get a kosher meal, and they STILL looked at me like a leper. Aren’t we all supposed to be a part of a huge mishpacha? A Shame that it seems as if we are not.
zionist occupier –
you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
(continuation of above, since the post cut off my paragraphs), Qur’an, Vedas, Kitabi-Aqdas, and even Moby Dick are equally sacred as the Torah. Then what is the problem with a Jew following any of those books or converting out of Judaism, if all are equal?
“The term skirts the divisive and futile question of origins, the fetid swamp of heresy. The sense of individual obligation, of being commanded, does not derive from divine authorship, but communal consent. The Written Torah, no less than the Oral Torah, reverberates with the divine-human encounter, with “a minimum of revelation and a maximum of interpretation.”
How long are you going to insult the Jewish intelligence with your non-sensical comments? Being commanded comes from communal consent, not from G-D telling you, “Do this, don’t do that”? Why would I listen to a community, why should I take the opinion of men? Why should I submit my life, and all of my faculties to something written by some putz (according to “Biblical scholarship”) 2100 yrs. ago, and even die for it, if it is not G-D’s Work? What if the communal consent all of a sudden vanishes, then what? We abandon Torah? Then why observe Torah in the first place if it’s something that can be voted in or out? It’s a useless man-made document. And what if, the Christian right all of a sudden decides to pose us with the age-old decision, Christ or the sword.If your line of thinking is to be accepted, I say we all go “prayse jaysus”, instead of dying for something which is, afterall, equal to the NT, and not holier. I wouldn’t want to die, or live by, something written by men, and as soon as they change their mind can be thrown out of the window.
“The Torah is the foundation text of Judaism, the apex of an inverted pyramid of infinite commentary, not because it is divine, but because it is sacred, that is, adopted by the Jewish people as its spiritual font.”
Now that drivel is truly insulting to one’s intelligence. How can you insult the Jewish intellect so much? How can something be scared if it is not of Divine origin? According to that line of thinking, if I love a piece of literature so much, then it is sacred, and that leads to the conclusion that tne NT
Mr. The Middle, I am a Religious Zionist Jew, and I have also returned from a very beautiful synagogue service with many families. The difference? Our services actually have meaning because we believe there is truth behind them, and they are mandated by the Almighty HASHEM. Our services give our children reason to stay Jewish, while yours strike the Jewish youth as hypocrisy. Why fast if G-D didn’t command it? Why come to synagogue if it wasn’t mandated by a Supreme Being? What reason is there for me to follow a document full of errors,anachronisms, and historical/archeological discrepancies? That is what you teach them, is it not? And trust me, Jewish kids aren’t that easily stupid to be duped.They smell hypocrisy a million miles away, and sadly enough it’s not the hypocrisy they abandon most of the time, it’s Judaism, religion, G-D. Why? Because they were raised to believe that G-D changes His Will according to what you and I want, not the other way around. That what He mandated wasn’t really revealed, but compiled,changed,edited, etc. And we wonder why we have a Jewish spiritual crisis? That is why most youth, disheartened with the emptiness and hollow shell of the Hebrew day school are often turning to Orthodoxy. Either that or they are completely breaking off and becoming Goyim.
I would like for once one of the non-Orthodox authroity to be frigging honest and say what he or she means. What you’re talking about is not adaptation of Halacha, but changin it or discarding many parts of it completely so you can be comfortable, or so you can bend Torah and religion to conform with the bias of an individual who might be an athiest out to disprove the Bible. Much arechology is subjective at best. The very fact that the “masorti” movement discards the idea of the Revelation at Sinai shows that they hold nothing to be sacred enough not to discard. How far is G-D going to adapt to man? to the extent where one day killing is ok, so we bend halacha to allow that? And btw, Torah from Sinai is by no means a modern idea, it is the foundation of Judaism. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch and JD Salavechek proved that Ortodoxy is completey compatible with modern life. But breaking shabbat, allowing the consumption of non-kosher foods,marrying non-Jews, all of this is anti-halacha and is not adaptation of halacha to the modern world, but changing it completely. And one more thing, Conservatives do not know a damned thing about the Talmud, and many do not even recognize it’s authority. You people are out to bend Torah or discard it based on findings that might be subjective, biased, incomplete or inaccurate, like “Rabbi” David Wolpe who said that the Exodus never happened. How is this adapting Halacha or Torah?! This is flat out discarding it! Just be honest and stop beating around the bush!
Zionist Occupier, you represent a good amount of why my grandparents’ grandparents left the shuls and shtetlach: they felt yelled at and unsupported in their time of need and tough decision making instead of listened to and even simply agreed-to-disagreed with.
CactusJack911, you’ve proven to us over the last few weeks that you’re a horse with blinders on. No need to keep hammering it home. Really.
TheMiddle,
Who has just returned from a beautiful Ne’ilah service at a Conservative synagogue filled with lots of families and their children.
What is all the babble on this discussion anyway?
Conservative Judaism isn’t Authentic Judaism. Anyone that says it is obviously has never had any intelligent Torah teachers or any serious study. Have fun boasting your high intermarriage rate and scarfing down your trife!
Stop reading your comic books and start trying to realize why it isn’t.
To the guy who said this is all about “politics”. You apparently have no clue what you’re ranting on about–how’s your girlfriend Bridgette doing?
Yes, because like the Christians and the Musllims I actually believe Hashem spoke to the Jews at Sinai.
Funny how it’s 90% of Jews like you that don’t. How’s that ham and cheese sandwhich today?
cactus jack – that was a hateful, disgusting thing to say.
i also feel sorry for those jews who are pandered to so they do not ever learn the real truth of their religion and are instead force-fed and deluded by fundamentalism and scriptural literalism. it is because of jews like you that i despair.
~invisible
Conservative Converts are Goys that think they are Jewish. There is only one type of conversion. I feel bad for those that have been mislead by their Reform and Conservative rabbis for lying to them.
with respect to C Judaism in practice not following up to C Judaism in theory.
Yes, thats a real problem, we have masses of ordinary people, of all origins, who pick a C shul cause its comfortable or popular, but who arent real committed to C ideology.
You dont find folks like that in Reconstructionist shuls for the most part. Not cause Recon is more deeply inspiring – its simply a sociological fact, people only join recon shuls if theyre really interested in the ideology. We have the masses of Am Israel to deal with. One can leave for a tiny shul or chavurah and be with a Jewish elite, or one can stay and try to lead the masses. I dont know which is best.
I do know that if C and R judaism disappeared tomorrow, the mass of Jews, would either leave Judaism, or would join O shuls, and present the same problem at O shuls. In fact at many modern O shuls, the ones that havent drifted off to the right, they DO present that problem. In fact many of them CAME from O a generation or more ago, where they presented the same problem.
My daughter is in a confirmation class, and so are several of her friends. But most of the Bar/bat Mitzvah class didnt go on. I can see the seperation between the committed elite and the drifting mass right there. I dont know the solution to inspire the drifting mass – many of those people dont share my values. But I can tell you that having my shul turn Orthodox wouldnt solve the problem. And it would create other problems for me and my family.
Conservative, Reform, and whatever other movements are disgusting and very harmful to individual Jews and the Jewish people. And no, I’m not an orthodox Jew. I’m actually a first generation Russian Jew. My parents used ot be secular, and my mother still is (my father became religious). When I go to synagogue, even though I don’t know the difference between the tanakh and the gemara, I go to a modern-orthodox synagogue because I don’t want to listen to rabbi rachel talk about intemarriage on a microphone during shabbas, lol.
My last comment was in response to Laya. I have no beef with Shira’s plea for tolerance and compassion.
I see what you’re saying, and I think that’s a completely legitimate attitude. But I think that’s not the only legitimate view. There’s a lot to be said for a more self-assertive stance. It’s more intellectually coherent, for one thing. It also recognizes the danger of millions or even billions of religious adherents with negative ideas about non-adherents (especially Jews) that have deeps roots in their faiths. It also makes it possible to bring the world closer to the vision of the prophets: a world without war, united through belief in one God.
Of course it’s also dangerous. People get assassinated for saying the wrong thing about certain religions. People could take it the wrong way, if it’s not done in a charitable, respectful, non-fundamentalist way. But as with the Reverend above, I think it’s common for adherents of other faiths to be puzzled why Jews don’t make the case for their faith.
8 million. Whatever. I still mostly fail.
We are still so far from being able to revere other traditions, alas! Living in New York City (where we are every day lovingly presented with 6 million opportunities to feel compassion–and mostly fail, sadly. I mean, *I* mostly fail) sometimes gives me hope that we can eventually be tolerant. And when we do finally manage it, and act on it … maybe we will merit Moshiach!
Maybe “true” doesn’t have to mean factually correct as much as a real and legitimate expression of man trying to come close to God. Maybe who we believe the final prophet was or was not is simply a detail. Maybe a meaningful Judaism has to meaningfully account for the other 99.8% of the world.
But it first takes a profound security in your own faith in order to consider the possibility that maybe there are multiple paths, and one ultimate truth.
“The problem to be faced is how to combine loyalty to one’s own tradition with reverence for different traditions”
A.J. Heschel
if tolerant religions like quakerism prostelytized, we’d end up with a lot fewer fundamentalists in the world.
but i’m not advocating prostelytizing. making arguments that your religion is true is different than going door to door and trying to get people to join your religion. some reform guy actually wrote a book advocating that jews spread their religion this way! god forbid. no one should ever try to pressure people to become jewish. but arguing that judaism is true, that’s another matter (as long as it’s not done door-to-door!). if non-jews believe judaism is true, they can just remain noahides and that’s fine. they don’t need to join anything.
which religion exactly could be true if judaism is also true? of course there’s a nicer way of putting it than saying other religions are false. for one thing, all religions probably contain some beliefs that are true and some practices that are beneficial, and have contributed positively to many people’s lives. in that way they’re not all “false.” but if god exists, buddhism is wrong. if jesus isn’t the messiah, christianity is not true. if mohammed wasn’t god’s true and final prophet, islam is false. and if there is no god, or jesus is the messiah, or the koran is true, then (non-atheistic, non-messianic) judaism is false.
No one, no one, no one should proselytize. The Quakers (who are truly awesome in so very many ways) say: Teach by example. They are not wrong.
err, not so much in agreement with you there that if Judaism is “true” it necessitates every other religion to be “false”.
I agree with Ephraim that proselytizing isn’t necessary, and that anyone can become Jewish with the proper determination. But people should understand that although it is a tradition to discourage conversion, it is a tradition observed by rabbis in a more or less friendly way, and not a general attitude of being mean to potential converts or anything like that. I also think that Jews should not be afraid to argue very publicly that Judaism is true and other religions aren’t. Of course we would need to be very careful to point out that you don’t have to be Jewish — being a noahide is fine. (Jews have never believed that non-Jews are going to hell.
We don’t even believe in a permanent hell; it’s more like purgatory.) This whole idea wouldn’t exactly be prostelytizing. It’s speaking the truth, being intellectually honest and consistent, having chutzpah and pride. Observant Jews pray every day that the whole world will come to believe in our God (that, as dovbear[.blogspot.com] put it, Christianity will disappear), a vision found in the Biblical prophets. We don’t need to wait for Moshiach to bring this about.
I agree with Ephraim that no prostelytizing is necessary, and that anyone can be Jewish with the proper determination. But although it is a tradition to discourage conversion, people should understand that it’s a tradition followed by rabbis in a more or less friendly way, and not a general attitude of being mean to potential converts or anything like that. Also, I think there’s nothing wrong with Jews making very public arguments that Judaism is true and other religions are false. Of course, we have to make it very clear that you don’t have to be Jewish to have a place in the world to come — that being a noachide is fine. That wouldn’t be prostelytizing, exactly. Just spreading the truth, being intellectually honest, being confident, having chutzpah and pride. Observant Jews pray every day that one day the whole world will worship our God (which means, as dovbear(.blogspot.com) put it, that Christianity will disappear). The same vision is described by the prophets. We don’t have to leave it to Moshiach to bring it about.
Um…..Reverend? We don’t do the “eternity of buring in molten magma” thing. I’m pretty sure you guys came up with that one.
But if you want in, where there’s a will, there’s a way, right? No proselytizing necessary, really. If you want to be Jewish and are stubborn, pushy and committed, you will find a way to bash the door down.
After all, refusing to take no for an answer is part of being Jewish. If you’ve got that kind of chutzpah, what, after all, is beyond your grasp?
Calm down, Middle.
I’m outraged at the fact that the first comment you received was “Are you proseltysing?”. I’m guessing that person probably wants Palestine to push Israel into the sea. Listen, if the almighty has graced you with a faith that can save people from horrible deaths and eternal curses, I WANT YOU TO PROSELYTISE TO ME! Even if I hate it at first, I really don’t think I’ll mind retrospectively if you save me from an eternity of burning in molten magma, thank you.
On the next point, since the Torah has clear instances of entire nations converting to Judaism, one thing is clear. Being a Jew has NOTHING to do with your parents and has EVERYTHING to do with who you worship. There is no such thing as a Jewish atheist.
…but I do agree with the last point: come mashiach, come quickly.
Laya,
On the first Shabbat of the month there is a service at B’nai Jeshurun that doesn’t use *any* instruments at all, and it’s really popular with young folks who seem to be, I guess, Modern Orthodox. Very nice to have them there.
At the risk of sounding defensive, which I am not, I might just take issue with the use of the term “more religious” to describe people who can’t get with the keyboard stuff. I submit that the people I daven with are hardcore religious. They, some of them, have made a kind of peace with the keyboard use, is all!
As I said before, many people don’t like that the rabbis are into peace and social justice issues, either, but they keep coming back–despite the keyboard, despite the exhortations to take seriously the words of the prophets. The quality of the worship is powerful.
Having said that, BJ ain’t for everyone, clearly. But personally, the thoughtfulness and the real heartfelt (without being self-conscious) devotion make the other places I’ve been to seem anemic at best. And who wants an anemic shul??
Shira,
I love hearing stories like that. Thank you. I’ve never been to a BJ service myself, but I wonder if the keyboard is absolutely necessary, or if there would be a way to have the same kavana and soul without it, which would make the shul more inclusive for jews of every spectrum. As it is, the keyboard makes it so more religious Jews who might want to see what you all are doing wouldn’t be able to attend, which is a shame.
B’nai Jeshurun does use a keyboard on Shabbat for the morning service–lamentable, perhaps. Controversial, certainly. I know that they did NOT take that decision lightly. Maybe the electricity is reason enough for some people to dismiss the shul, but I think that would be a grave mistake. The place is absolutely overflowing with kavannah and devekut. It’s a serious place.
A group from the shul recently spent a week in Israel, and they held Shabbat services in Tel Aviv, together with a couple hundred members of Israeli groups who are dedicated to deepening their relationship with Judaism–albeit from a non-religious perspective. My shul on Friday nights is so heady and joyful that the roof practically blows off the synagogue, and many of these Israelis had never been to any kind of religious service, and my friend who was there said lots of them had tears in their eyes at the beauty and the spirit of the singing.
After the service, one guy–a tough young man who had been hired as security for the group, approached one of my rabbis and said, “My parents made aliyah when I was just a baby; I’ve lived in Israel all these years, and I’ve always been Israeli, but this is the first time in my life I’ve ever felt like a Jew.”
I tell you, I don’t care about the electricity on Shabbat when experiences like that can be brought about: THAT is what a shul is supposed to do.
Not to dismiss the importance of 20-somethings (we have a couple of them on this blog), but many people do become more spiritual and interested in finding some sort of spiritual space as they become older.
Ah, B’nai Jeshurun; I’m told it’s an interesting place, and that indeed they attract huge crowds for services in two locations. However, they seem to pick and choose certain details when it comes to observance; is it true that they use not only a sound system by also electronic keyboards for Shabbat services? If so, that would seem to place them in the Reform camp, even if they daven from Sim Shalom (Conservative sidur).
I have a great CD of the three BJ rabbis and the cantor singing various “classics”; those folks (three men, one women) really have great voices, and the percussionist plays many different drums quite well. Their version of Hamavdil, with one verse in Ladino, is simple and powerful.
My shul is more “traditional” when it comes to the service; it’s a straight shot through Sim Shalom in Hebrew (prayer for our country in English). Most services are lead my the laity (facing forward) under the able eye of our rabbi; there are dozens of folks that can lead and lein because of his encouragement. We do use a sound system on Shabbat (I lost that battle), but it is turned on before sundown and the microphones are “kosher” condenser units that are not touched by those leining. There is no separate seating available, and therefore no mechitsa; if I had my way, there would be options to suit people that desire such an approach to davening, but that is unlikely to happen these days in a Conservative shul.
On a Shabbat without a b’nai mitsva, the shul will pull in 50-100 people (sometimes more) including many families with children (good youth programs). I think there are just a few 20-somethings, but many 30/40-somethings. Daily minions are another matter; it should be twice as easy to “make the minion” counting women, but it doesn’t seem to always work out that way.
Oh, and that’s out of about 40 or 50 people on an average Saturday morning.
Good idea, taltman. My Conservative shul probably has 5 or 6 people in their 20s on most Saturdays, but that counts people who might be in their early 30s. This Saturday morning I think there were 3 or 4.
i dont think it is right that reform people say the emaot because the didn’t really have a role except cleaning cooking and having babies
Quick poll: How many 20-somethings attend your Conservative shul on Shabbat morning? And how many people show up in general?
I go to Congregation Beth David, Saratoga, CA. There’s ~5 20-somethings, out of ~100 people at shul.
Nathan,
I daven at B’nai Jeshurun in Manhattan. The place is consistently PACKED, not only for Kabbalat Shabbat but also for Shabbat morning services. And yet a goodly number of its members are not in line with our rabbis’ social activism. Before I started davening there, a friend told me, “You would like BJ. I think God lives there.” She was not wrong, in my opinion. There is a deep and true spirit at work in that congregation. Deeply and truly Jewish. The rabbis work very hard to exhort us to be more and more observant and to experience the meaning in being observant, to rejoice in it. They push us hard, and we respond by trying harder. I think that is precisely the way Jewish life should be: Rabbis should push us, and we should do better.
Alot of people—ALOT—at my shul come to services because, even though their political and religio-political ideas don’t mesh with those of my shul’s rabbinate, the kavannah is such that they can’t imaging davening anywhere else. I always thought you had to have absolute social and political consonance with your place of worship in order to feel comfortable praying there, but evidently not.
Do we daven at the same shul? I could have written that description word for word!
-Nathan
laya wrote:
But despite all the changes made to accomodate modernity, most conservative shul parking lots are still all too empty come saturday morning.
At our Conservative shul, this is considered progress, ’cause it means more people are walking 😉
-Nathan
The requirement of a minyan makes no sense if you rely on the arguement that “they have to go back to the dreadful solitude before the creation of Eve when men was talking to G-d by himself”
If the requirement of a minyan is so that they pray with a community then excluding women from being counted as part of the community sounds a little, well, 3rd World…just saying.
For every beautiful and touching story of why things are the way the are in Orthodox tradition, the bottom line comes down to those in power (men) set up laws to keep them empowered, ask any Agunah, she’ll tell you.
It’s threatening if financial obligations can’t be met. Then again, I don’t know whether national organizations have an impact on people’s level of faith or observance. Practice of religion seems to me to be a local affair. Then again, in seeking out synagogues, most people do gravitate to those of a movement because, like at McDonalds, they know what they’re going to get.
Not that I recommend the sucky food at McDonalds. Then again, there was a time when lots of Conservative Jews ate french fries at McDonalds thinking they were kosher. Of course that ended when the company admitted to using beef tallow in its recipe. Ouch.
The mechitzah is a biggie, from what I understand, which is not much about this.
There are men who will not go in, unless there is one.
There are men who will not go in, unless there in not one.
There are women who will not go in … you get the idea.
I like them, personally. What I mean is, I understand that the men need them. It is nobody’s fault they need them. Really, really need them. I know there are men who do not know they need them. That is my opinion, anyway.
My private opinion is that men have to face G-d alone, without the comfort of their wives’ company. Of course it is harder, but that’s the point. They have to go back to the dreadful solitude before the creation of Eve, when Adam was already talking to G-d, by himself.
It said to be totally OK to pray with fellow Jews you do not think well of at all, personally or religiously.
A Jew is a Jew.
Alot of people—ALOT—at my shul come to services because, even though their political and religio-political ideas don’t mesh with those of my shul’s rabbinate, the kavannah is such that they can’t imaging davening anywhere else. I always thought you had to have absolute social and political consonance with your place of worship in order to feel comfortable praying there, but evidently not.
Maybe the labels of the movements just mean less than they used to? Is that a threatening situation to some people? Maybe so.
Okay, that LA Journal article is very telling. Essentially, they describe 3 vibrant, growing young congregations that sound Conservative but aren’t affiliated with the movement. Here’s a description of what one of these congregations’ leaders is considering:
Rabbi Brous, of Ikar, is considering an affiliation with the Conservative movement, now that her spiritual community has defined its own parameters.
“We had to make it clear to our community first who we are and what we are,†said Brous, who can envision her congregants as trailbrazers for a re-invigorated Conservative movement. “I want other communities in the Conservative world to see that it’s possible to be innovative, creative, dynamic — to ask new kinds of questions of Jewish life, to not do things the way they always have been done and work within the Conservative movement.â€
Her evolution of thought is a hopeful one: “Ultimately what I care about is God, Torah, humanity and the Jewish people. The Conservative movement is not an end in its own right. I think the movement is a mechanism to get us there. And I think Ikar has more of a chance of impacting the movement by being in the movement.â€
And the article adds:
In a way, though, the Conservative movement’s crisis applies to all Jewish denominations; they are all forced to confront adapting the traditions of Judaism to modernity. The Orthodox, too, must deal with women’s issues and homosexuality, just as Reform Jews must deal with the yearning for tradition. All of Judaism is seeking to increase membership, combat assimilation and evolve the next generation of leaders.
So wait a minute. Although the movement might be losing people, those people are practicing in ways that are very similar to the movement. Perhaps they want more freedom, or perhaps they are attracted to a particular unaffiliated rabbi (although these rabbis came from that movement). It’s not as if they went off and assimilated and now celebrate Christmas.
I probably don’t have enough experience with the Conservative movement to generalize as much as I have in this post, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!
Ano, clearly you’re newish here. Just because you don’t have experience with something doesn’t mean you can’t criticize it! Has this discussion thus far proved nothing? [/sarcasm]
I have more to say, but can’t right now…busy day.
In the honor of international Orthodox Judaism Brotherhood Week:
“Ooooh, the Mitnagdim, hate the Hassidim,
And the Sephardim, hate the Ashkenazim,
The Modern Orthodox hate the Haredim,
And they all hate C Jews.”
With apologies to Tom Lehr.
This came to mind when reading some people’s posts in this threads which give the impression of the monolithic unity of Orthodox Judaism. Don’t feel bad that they don’t accept the authority of C rabbis, they hardly accept each other’s rabbis, either.
If there is some sort of inter-Orthodox denomination/movement rabbi-acceptance treaty, I’d love to hear more about it.
I think Laya’s point about the divinity of the Torah is really crucial. Most of this discussion has been about practice and not belief. But I imagine few people could be motivated to be completely observant without actually believing in Hashem and his role in the Torah and the divine importance of all mitzvot and so on. My impression is that these beliefs are not widely held among Conservatives, even the rabbis. I wouldn’t go so far as to say most are atheists (as with Reform, where most Rabbis are said to consider themselves atheists.) But “my” Conservative rabbi (I go to a Conservative shul) scoffs at (some of ) the beliefs of the Orthodox (even delivering sermons against them), and seems to have beliefs that are shaped more by Biblical scholarship and archeology than the Torah and Jewish tradition. This is understandable, since I’m sure there’s a lot of good scholarship out there, and since most of the congregation is not going to be particularly supernatural in orientation. But maybe non-Orthodox Jews would have more faith in the traditional precepts of Judaism if the rabbis would try to strengthen people’s faith.
I probably don’t have enough experience with the Conservative movement to generalize as much as I have in this post, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!
by the way, sorry my last comment was so long. I hope I answered your fundamental questions. Forgive me if I can’t spend so much time on this vintage thread. Although it is an interesting debate, at a certain point one can’t help but going in circles.
Oh – and thanks ck. That same quote was also used by the Jewish Journal of Greater LA ( a good article btw, if you have the time). I really didn’t think my comment was so interesting, but apparently it articulates a very real problem that the leaders of the Conservative movement are fortunately trying to address now. Best of luck to them.
laya – you are too modest! Mordy Greenspan, International President of USY adressed the International USY Convention in Philadelphia a few weeks ago. His speech quoted from one of your comments on this very thread, to wit:
Good Evening. Thank all of you for joining me here today.
I would like to begin by reading you an online post that can be found at the website Jewlicious.com.
“I grew up between my local Reform and Conservative shuls. I went to Sunday school at the Conservative one. No one in my class returned to that place after our bar or bat Mitzvahs if we were given the choice.
They failed to instill in us any sense of passion or joy about being Jewish. They failed to instill a sense of community between the members, or relevance to the real world in the stuff we were learning. In fact, I barely remember what they taught us. If Conservative Judaism worked, I really might not have had such a problem with it. But I know my experience isn’t unique, and the Conservative movement keeps losing numbers for a reason.”
Over the last two decades the Conservative Movement has been losing members in droves. We went from claiming 40% of American Jewish households in 1990 to 33% in 2000. The same survey also found that nearly half of all adult Jews who were raised Conservative no longer consider themselves to be Conservative.
It would seem that Conservative Judaism is in trouble, that its future uncertain. With the success of Chabad on college campuses, the Conservative Movements presence is continuing to falter. Talking with my friends, the majority of who are active in Jewish life at their respective colleges, there is not an active Conservative option at the majority of colleges.
Thanks Esther for the heads up. There’s more of the speech and if anyone wants it, request it using the contact us page and we’ll send it to you.
nathan – the quote you attributed to me was actually said by ck, but I did mention your over generalization. Honest mistake.
middle –
For sure some people feel very threatened and will stifle any voice that would make them question their world view. While haredim may be the most easy to spot members of the greater O.J.community, I do not feel they are representative.
I remember how a lot of the great philosophy of Conservative Judaism reminded me of college brochures that describe what the school is like, the excellence they strive for and the values they uphold. But once on campus, dealing with the day to day realities, your actual experience has little to do with the abstract way the school was sold.
Similarly, for all the beauty in its philosophy, we both know that there is a large gap between what the conservative movement teaches and what most of its adherents practice.
Say what you want about my statements, but I know you also got that email from Esther about how a few weeks ago, at the International USY Convention met in Philadelphia, Mordy Greenspan, the president of USY opened with my statement in this comment thread that the Conservative movement ” failed to instill in us any sense of passion or joy about being Jewish. They failed to instill a sense of community between the members, or relevance to the real world in the stuff we were learning. In fact, I barely remember what they taught us. If Conservative Judaism worked, I really might not have had such a problem with it. But I know my experience isn’t unique, and the Conservative movement keeps losing numbers for a reason.”
He went on to talk about the truth of that statement and what they needed to do about it. Clearly I am not off my rocker.
If conservative Judaism on a practical day to day level provided a strong sense of community, a commitment to torah and mitzvot, a spiritual path, joy and inspiration, I would most likely still be conservative. But despite all the changes made to accomodate modernity, most conservative shul parking lots are still all too empty come saturday morning.
The ability to instill in its adherents a compelling reason to practice what it preaches is the largest practical difference. I know there are really frum conservative Jews out there, I’ve met a few, but unfortunately, they are generally the exception that proves the rule.
The major theological difference of course is in the divinity of Torah. Maybe the two have something to do with each other. Maybe humans need a divine imperative to practice, rather than simply an intellectual agreement about the goodness of Torah.
You basically ask if orthodoxy is changing, then why is it any different than conservative Judaism?
But lets just get something straight: Just because two movements change do not mean they change in the same way. Just because one movement might change with more ease or frequency does not mean the other movement is not changing at all. It would be absurd to assume that because two things change there is no qualitative difference in the nature of their individual changing. Not all changes are created equally.
Orthodox Judaism does indeed “lock certain traditions in place,” certain traditions should stay put. I don’t have a problem with that. If you change all your traditions, they cease to be traditions, don’t they? Some traditions can go up for review while other ones, if changed, change the very essence of the faith.
For example, just because a movement feels comfortable exploring new roles for women does not mean it should necessarily feel comfortable compromising what they feel is the sanctity of shabbat. The issue of shabbat is a deal breaker for many, including myself.
It would be beneficial to not paint the defining feature of orthodoxy as a refusal to change. The real differences are in the divintiy of Torah, and the general observance and commitment levels of the members.
I hope that more or less answers you.
unknown – I haven’t read the book
shira – You’ve got a nice open mind there. Keep it up.
BTW, my wife was the one that arranged for Nosson Slifkin to speak in this area on his last “tour”. Over half of the audience was from our Conservative shul. Slifkin is a good speaker, but is an even better zoo tour guide. The Bronx zoo will never be the same to me after seeing it though his eyes. If you have the chance to take one of his tours, run, don’t walk to attend.
laya said:
Nathan’s point is a gross overgeneralization that lumps all observant Jews into the Chassidic camp.
Quite the opposite – and your choice of words above shows the misunderstanding. My claim is, in fact, that “observant Jews” can in fact (also) daven at Conservative shuls. My note of the streimel (sp?) was to offer a stark visual proof of the problems with stuck-in-time views of “observance”. BTW, I have a friend that wears one of those hats.
ck said:
As a movement, no one can deny the fact that Conservative Judaism is floundering and is beset by institutional self-doubt amongst its leadership and general apathy amongst the bulk of its membership.
Replace “Conservative” with “Modern Orthodoxy” or “Reform” and the statement works as well. As I’ve previously written, I’m no shill for the Conservative Movement. I think more than half of it needs to be shed, as they are really Reform Jews, and should therefore be more honest about their practices and join Reform shuls. My family lives in the space between the lines of the Conservative Movement and “Orthodoxy”; the observance level is largely orthodox, but the intellectual freedom is purely Conservative. Unfortunately, critical thinking is seen as a threat to faith and is not a generally accepted part of most of today’s “Orthodoxy”.
ck also said:
Halacha certainly seems “frozen†but only from an uninformed perspective. There’s a difference between frozen and metodical. From a larger historical perspective “Orthodox†Judaism is and has always been in a constant state of flux. The fact that the Orthodox don’t hop onto the bandwagon of every modern trend and development does not mean that they do not take these into account. Also you need to stop thinking of the Orthodox as monolithic.
The “flux” mostly halted 500 years ago per my previous post; you may need to study some history to understand why things went crazy back then, but rest assured, halachic development has largely stopped in Orthodoxy – unless you consider adding more and more chumroth and other restrictions “development”. Can one claim forward progress because Modern Orthodox American Jews will now drink milk that wasn’t observed in the milking process by a rabbi? How about getting rid of the dated (and widely ignored) gezaroth from those right-wing good-old-boys at Beth Shammai than require “kosher wine”, “kosher cheese” (an observant Jew must drop in the rennet), “kosher salted fish”, “pat Yisrael”, “bishul Yisrael”, etc. That would be development that would enable far more Jews to keep kosher without the hassles imposed by those “fences”.
My perspective, while perhaps “uninformed”, is based upon a sampling over ten years of a wide variety of Jewish groups, ranging from Chabad to Reform shuls. My family has davened at and has friends at almost every shul in this small city, including the “Modern Orthodox”, “Yeshiva Orthodox”, “Chabad Orthodox”, “Misnagdic Orthodox”, “Old World Chassids Mixed with Misnagdim Orthodox”, etc. My current teacher is an Orthodox rabbi that is a well-educated scholar of both sacred texts, secular history, liberal arts, is a social activist and a gentleman to boot. Sadly, there aren’t many Orthodox rabbis like him around these days.
He is trying hard to cure me of the ignorance ck believes I suffer by having me study Mishna/Tosefta/Gemara(both)/Comentaries as well as classic JTS texts. I’m sure ck has already worked through all that stuff, but I’ll just have to catch up if I can.
I note with interest Esther’s mention of a liberal Orthodox minion she had been attending. My family recently went to (what I assume is) a similar minion at a local university that is based upon the Shira hadahsa “model”. There was separate seating and a low-ish mechitsa. Women participated in psukei d’zimra and the Torah service; men were required to “make” the minion. There was great ruach and kevana. Half of the minion, BTW, was composed of Conservative guys that take their religion seriously and wanted to support the group. I hope we’ll see more of these minionim, and soon.
Constraints or discipline or limitations are part of religious practice, and some people feel their “constraints†differently than others do–they feel them as *liberty*. I look at a woman who attends a shul where she can’t have an aliyah or read from the Torah and I think, “If I were her, I would feel limited,†but she may feel free in a way that I can’t understand. I don’t know what she feels. But I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and respect her. She is not me. I pray that she feels liberated and expressive where she is, and I pray to be able to feel and express all the liberation that God visits on me, be it through halakha or whatever means.
Laya!! Laya!! Is this book accurate in your opinion?:)
My point in showing the article is not that you have a monolith. It’s that some people feel very threatened by change and will take some fairly aggressive actions in an attempt to stop it. In the end, he had to go to Gil Student’s publishing house to get his next title published.
Read that article you linked to, great story. But I don’t know why you thought I would be threatened by it. It actually perfectly illustrates some of the things I have said several times in the past
1) there is a very wide range of belief within what is broadly defined as “orthodoxy”
2) Ultra Orthodox (like those in bnei brak, for instance) are in many ways fundamentally different from the rest of orthodoxy and we should not use the simple term “orthodox” to include them both, as it is generally misleading.
But in any case, nice read. Thanks for the link.
It may come off sounding that way to you, but that doesn’t mean it is that way.
But the question is simple, Laya, in this discussion and in others, both you and ck have commented that Conservative Judaism as well as other forms undermine tradition. It has been voiced in different ways, and has been done fairly honestly. However, my question to you, if you re-read this post and how some leading scholars define the Conservative movement, is how exactly is it different than Orthodox if Orthodox is also changing. If Orthodox is not a movement that is focused on a particular sensibility that locks certain traditions in place, then it is changing these traditions. It must be doing so with respect to halachic authority, which is what Conservatives are doing. So how is it different?
Do you think it’s possible for you to respond without talking about me again? If it is, and if you consider the question carefully, you’ll see that it’s not an attack but a very meaningful and substantive question. How are the changes that Conservative Judaism has pursued, within the confines of Jewish tradition, different than changes that may be taking place in the corners of the Orthodox world you describe?
nah, didn’t get a chance to look at that link yet. Too busy finding Sarah Silverman’s bit on the aristocrats. In any case, I didn’t mean to be insulting, I apologize if I was. I was merely trying to get you to open your mind a little to the potential validity of a more traditional way of life, and the understanding that halacha can and does change outside the conservative movement.
That of course, does not mean that they can or should necessarily change according to what you may want or think makes sense.
I don’t feel threatened or attacked, but I do feel frustrated at going over this time and again with no apparent greater understanding.
You seem to continue to think that “orthodox” is synonymous with “unchanging” and imply that once orthodox Judaism changes any custom or halacha it becomes conservative judaism, but this is patently false. You imply that since I can be ok with women reading torah, I should really consider myself conservative, but it just doesn’t follow.
I’m glad to hear you say that By the way, just because I fit into certain boxes, that does not force me to think of other boxes as inferior. But perhaps you should be aware that sometimes the way you talk about more traditional forms of judaism comes off badly, like you are painting them to be outmoded, callus, closed minded, unchanging at all costs, backwards, and well, just plain wrong. That attitude doesn’t seem to be so accepting and flexible. It’s possible that some of your preconceptions about orthodoxy aren’t or are no longer so accurate.
I’m not sure, somebody made a new comment and it brought us back to the discussion. It’s not as if these issues have gone away in the past 6 months.
I’m also not quite sure how we got to the insults in the last comment, but perhaps you feel under attack. It’s not always an attack when somebody asks pertinent questions, even if the answers are uncomfortable to give. Was it the article link that got you all defensive, or was it that I asked how Orthodoxy differs from Conservative Judaism if you make changes to millenia-old customs?
Either way, I disagree with your assertions about what I consider valid or invalid, better or worse, right or wrong or any other such claim.
As I noted above in my comment to Esther, it seems to me that part of the problem is that there are all kinds of boxes that we’ve created, and people don’t always fit. I am far more interested in figuring out how people can fit into the big box of Judaism than to worry about whether one of the little boxes it contains is somehow superior to another.
By the way, just because I fit into certain boxes, that does not force me to think of other boxes as inferior. I can also disagree with certain aspects of other boxes’ contents without thinking of mine as better, although I may perceive aspects of my boxes to be better for me or the society around me. If anything, I am extremely accepting and flexible, which is ironic in light of the accusations made in your last comment.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. So much for the notion that Halacha is “frozen.”
middle,
Orthodoxy is not defined by an unwillingness to change, anymore than a willingness to change defines Conservative Judaism. That would be quite the unenlightened perspective.
You seem very sure and confident about the correctness of your way of life and belief system. Yet you often disparage other individuals or groups who are equally confident in their way of life and belief system, seemingly because they do not believe the way you do.
There seems to be something a little closed minded in that approach. Is it really fair to ask others to validate your lifestyle while you insult theirs? If one’s approach is that conservative Judaism is the answer for most or all Jews, wouldn’t that person be just as narrow minded as certain sects of orthodox Judaism who also act as if theirs is the one right way?
We have covered in these pages the announcement of froi gras to be unkosher. We have talked about an orthodox women’s yeshiva which implied that in the future, they will be ordaining women rabbis. There are two ortho shuls I know of where women can read from the Torah, and one that requires a minyan of men and of women before services begin. But like I said, no matter what we say, your view on this subject seem to be more absolute and unchanging than the “unchanging” halacha you criticize. It just seems a little ironic that your modern and progressive world view does not seem to allow for the validity of a lifestyle and belief system more religious or traditional than your own.
Now, what the hell are we doing back on this post?
Well, because we’re changing the world here.
I guess we’re a bit backward here in North America because I haven’t seen an Orthodox synagogue in any of the four cities where I’ve attended services where I’ve even seen a woman anywhere but behind a mechitza, and certainly not leading any part of the services or ceremonies. But if these changes are already with us in Israel, then that’s wonderful. So if you are willing to change millenia-old traditions, tell me again how you are different from Conservative Jews?
By the way, here is an interesting article that raises some disturbing questions.
I could get one already, in one of a couple orthodox shuls I know. But it’s not my thing. I don’t really understand why it would be to your credit if I did, but it’s cool. I know you mean well.
Laya, you’ll thank me when you get your first aliyah. 😉
You know, the irony of this is that despite whatever we say, the middle’s view that halacha is absolute and unchanging is actually more absolute and unchanging than halacha itself.
Esther, I think you bring up an interesting and worthwhile issue: the relevance of movements in today’s Judaism. We need to post about this some time soon. Having movements with their own rules and platforms makes sense on a macro level, but at the end of the day we are in a world where people choose for themselves. The absurdity, for example, of dictating to somebody who was born to a Jewish father and who lives as a Jew that they are are not Jewish is probably not going to have any real impact on these individuals; they will practice as Jews anyway. Their practice will revolve around their beliefs.
ck, what you want is to have your cake and eat it too. You want to say that the only way to fulfill one’s obligations as a Jew is to live as an Orthodox Jew. An Orthodox Jew, in your view, observes halacha and lives by it as if it is the equal (and in some ways, greater) of the torah. When somebody mentions that they had no cars 2000 years ago, you pooh pooh the notion that driving on shabbat is acceptable because halacha forbids it. When somebody says that they practice Judaism as you do but weren’t converted by a rabbi of the Orthodox movement, they are not Jewish in your view because that rabbi does not follow halacha as if it were this edifice frozen in time a long time ago. You believe that women are the equals of men, and yet you would not count a woman in a minyan or let her read from the torah. Perhaps 2000 years ago, women played a different role in society, but in an age when women represent the majority of students in graduate programs across North America, are you suggesting that halacha isn’t preventing the Orthodox – even the Modern Orthodox who are able to reconcile aspect of modern life with tradition – from seeing what is plain and obvious?
So what if there are different types of Orthodox Jews if the range is still constricted by the frozen halachic norms of a world far from ours in time, culture and location?
That is the question.
From my perpective, by the way, this isn’t an attack on you, Laya or anybody who is Orthodox. This is a discussion where the Conservative movement came under withering attack on the basis of their being a movement that is willing to continue the once-obvious practice of evaluating and re-interpreting halacha. They offer a true alternative to Orthodoxy, and one that many Jews find is far closer to their belief system than Orthodoxy offers.
Hey, isn’t the vatican gonna eliminate purgatory?
For the last year or so, I’ve maintained that the current denominational labels don’t accurately describe contemporary observance. You have “observant” Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews, and although their ideologies may be different, their item-by-item observance may be strikingly similar. (I recognize that this is mostly true in major cities with bigger Jewish populations.)
But even within the Orthodox movement alone, there are indeed a range of observances. But if you asked the National Council of Young Israel, many of those people (anyone who considers him or herself Modern Orthodox) would not be considered Orthodox. If you asked the Orthodox Union, many of those people (the people who affiliate with Edah or other more liberal forms of Orthodoxy) would not be considered Orthodox. So who is the ultimate decisor of who is in what movement if the observance is not constant? Is it the ideology (not kosher and egal= Reform; mostly kosher and mostly egal=Conservative; Glatt and non-egal=Orthodox?) or the affiliation/membership dues (I belong to a ______ shul, therefore I am part of the ______ movement)?
I think we all agree that there’s a range of observances within the movements. Halakhah may not be a frozen monolith in Orthodoxy, but according to the definition accepted by the rank and file (although not necessarily happily) does restrict the extent to which (for example) women can be involved in Jewish life. To some people, that’s an acceptable limitation. To others, it’s a straw that breaks the back of the metaphorical camel. Orthodox Judaism is making strides toward expanding roles for women within the bounds of halakhah, yes. And I do agree that I think the “driving teshuvah” of the Conservative Movement, while seemingly necessary, was a tactical error. So neither of these communities is really my own right now.
I’ve started going to a minyan that has separate seating, but more equal participation. There, I find other people like me, who are dancing on the line between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism, and that’s going to have to do for now. Maybe I’m lucky, in that if I had to for the sake of my currently non-existent husband/children, I would find a way to feel comfortable in either environment. Or maybe I’m cursed, and this is the purgatory of non-belonging.
Halacha certainly seems “frozen” but only from an uninformed perspective. There’s a difference between frozen and metodical. From a larger historical perspective “Orthodox” Judaism is and has always been in a constant state of flux. The fact that the Orthodox don’t hop onto the bandwagon of every modern trend and development does not mean that they do not take these into account. Also you need to stop thinking of the Orthodox as monolithic.
Certainly amongst certain Haredi sects the trend is often towards the adoption of more and more humras, stricter practices, meant not so much to accomodate modernity, but rather to check its influences. However, this trend does not apply to all who identify with Orthodoxy! There are many within Orthodoxy, particularly modern Orthodoxy who seek to strike a balance between secular society at large and the maintenance of a lifestyle that respects and is deferential to Torah Judaism. Yes – such a thing is possible. Focusing on the extremes of fundamentalist, Haredi Judaism does not advance the reality of the situation on ground. Yeah, maybe it makes Conservative and Reform Judaism seem like the only option for intelligent, modern, free thinking individuals, but that notion is simply not true. For the rank and file who identify with Orthodoxy, Halachah is anything but frozen and monolithic. Has the point been suitably addressed or will I have to hear more uninformed cracks about fur hats and a 6000 year old world?
Now pardon me whilst I curl my payes, fluff my shtreimel, cancel my Internet service and rid my household of all media that makes reference to the myth of dinosaurs.
Mmmmm, but you also evaded his point.
Halacha. Non-changing.
Nathan’s point is a gross overgeneralization that lumps all observant Jews into the Chassidic camp. I have severe ideological issues with Hassidim, but I still respect the way of life they have chosen. They wish to preserve and protect their way of life and refuse to allow non-Torah influences to steer the course of their practice and development. Orthodox Judaism is not a monolith and it contains many variants, most of whom do not require the wearing of fur hats ever.
And please, if you’re going to debate stop using that technique of “I know some really observant Conservatve Jews.” Look, I know Orthodox Jews who are total shits – does that mean alll of Orthodoxy is shit? Similarly, pointing out individual Conservative Jews who are stellar means bupkis. Talk about the movement in general!
As a movement, no one can deny the fact that Conservative Judaism is floundering and is beset by institutional self-doubt amongst its leadership and general apathy amongst the bulk of its membership.
Laya, you evaded the point.
Way to totally over generalize about the “orthodox” there Nathan. Excuse me, I need to go find my shtriemel and relocate my backwards ways now.
There are rules, which Orthodox Jews believe are a matter of G-d’s will, as passed down through Torah, oral Torah, and the masorah of am Yisrael (the traditions of the nation of Israel). Orthodoxy does not allow for these to be ‘changed’ or ‘re-interpreted’ but merely to be applied to new times and situations, which sometimes requires careful thought and discussion and seemingly ‘new’ rulings based on thousands of years of legal precident, based on a complex constitutional document written by the creator of the universe (by whatever method, and yes there are differences on that WITHIN Orthodox circles)
The money quote is, “Orthodoxy does not allow for these to be ‘changed’”. That is exactly correct, which is why Orthodoxy cannot claim to take the historically acurate approach to Halacha. The Halacha always changed – always changes – and must continue to always change. It represents and reflects the dynamic tension between the bedrock of the past and the present needs of the people. Unfortunately, the shadow of the expultion from Spain and the debacle of the false messiah Sabbatai Tsvi had a profound impact which, among other things, largely froze the Halachic process and began a movement of cultural and religious entrenchment that has continued to this day. How else can a rational person explain people that wear big fur hats in the middle of the summer? For them, time is frozen in the cold Polish winter some 300-400 years ago.
I assure you, there are Jews that daven in Conservative shuls that are shomer Shabbath, shomer kashruth, and take the yoke of Torah quite seriously. They also know the world isn’t less than 6,000 years old, that the Torah we have today is a redacted (by R. Ezra) document, and that those things don’t change the fact that you still need to help make the minion every day. Really.