What the hell is going on here? There are Palestinian prisoners in underwear out there and we’re talking about a pop singer. A lot.

And where is ck?

Seriously, I think many Palestinians and Muslims view this image as a significant insult. I’m not quite sure why the IDF did this, but my guess is that it wasn’t necessary.

In other news, Sergeant Ido Shapira, a paratrooper, was killed today while his unit was trying to arrest wanted Palestinians in Jenin. Every time Israeli forces try to make this kind of arrest, they endanger themselves. One solution has been targeted killings by aircraft, but as we know, that hasn’t been a perfect solution because innocent bystanders are injured or killed sometimes. Alav hashalom.

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themiddle

25 Comments

  • Seriously, I think many Palestinians and Muslims view this image as a significant insult. I’m not quite sure why the IDF did this, but my guess is that it wasn’t necessary.

    You don’t know their reasons, but you’re pretty sure their reasoning was flawed? I’m impressed.

    There were about 100 soldiers in the operation, of whom only a small number were to guard the prisoners (who numbered about 200). Terrorists in Jericho prison had cell phones, unscreened visitors and were essentially ruled the place. Sa’adat (who was supposed to be in solitary) had several rooms with computers and ‘net connections, a waiting room for guests, big-screen TV, etc. Given how the terrorists effectively ruled the place, the possibility that some of them were armed – or were armed by the guards – should not have been ruled out.

  • I think many Palestinians and Muslims view this image as a significant insult. I’m not quite sure why the IDF did this, but my guess is that it wasn’t necessary.

    It is pretty normal to order suspected terrorists to strip down so as to show they’re not armed. And given how the terrorists effectively ran Jericho prison, the IDF were right to consider the occupants as potential threats.

    I’m impressed you can conclude the IDF is unnecessarily offending Muslims while acknowledging you haven’t a clue as to why.

  • Hey Matt, did you notice the words “I guess?” They indicate uncertainty. The reason I was uncertain is that I haven’t seen anybody discuss why they had done it and while it is easy enough to GUESS why, I couldn’t really see the reason considering that their hands are bound behind their backs. While I realize that your average Palestinian prison guard is a ninja-like fighting machine, it seemed unrealistic that they would be able to do anything to anybody with their hands bound behind their back whether dressed in their birthday suit, underwear or a lovely khaki PA uniform.

    Now I am wondering whether your comment is posted with knowledge or conjecture. If it is knowledge, can you please provide the source so that I can replace my guess with knowledgeable commentary? Thanks.

  • First, sorry for the snappy tone. Late night last night – nothing personal.

    Second, the double post was unintentional. I posted and was taken to a site saying my config was wrong. Odd. There might even be a repeat of #2 in the works…

    Third, they aren’t flex-cuffed until they reach the soldiers (they aren’t going to cuff themselves). They were told to approach the soldiers wearing nothing but their tightie-whities. That’s from having watched on TV.

    I guess they could have been allowed to get dressed after, but I wasn’t there. Maybe they left their clothes outside the prison, or maybe the soldiers didn’t really care about protecting their dignity. In terms of offence caused, the IDF routinely orders suspects to strip off – the locals are used to it.

  • It was covered also in print and online press. The basic sentiment was that it was done as a way to insure that no one was armed, and that’s not just weapons, but the possibility of being vested with a suicide bomb vest. The prisoners were all asked to strip at a distance deemed safe if any were in fact walking bombs, and then asked to approach were they were re-bound. Subsequently, a lot of prisoners who were deemed to not be terrorist, but rather political prisoners were later released.

    On another note… does that picture remind anyone of a certain funny music video in another language. Yatta perhaps.

  • Notice how “the middle (wannabe)” writes that “I’m not quite sure why the IDF did this, but my guess is that it wasn’t necessary” rather than “I’m not quite sure why the IDF did this, but my guess is that it was necessary.”

    This knee jerk anti-Israel mentality is all too common among the left. Maybe “the middle” should consider a name change?

  • How is it that you’re all overlooking the wonderful material here regarding boxers, briefs and going commando? And now I’m wondering what the female prisoners wear? Thongs? Big ol’ granny briefs? Hipsters? (The panties, not the bloggers.) Is there Muslim underwear? Like a burka for your butt? A veil for your vagina? OK, that’s quite enough. Back to work.

  • I’ve got it! Put your pubes in purdah. For the modest Muslim miss. BTW, why is J’licious is the slowest-loading site on the net?

  • Middle, even you should know by now that the paleostinians, and the Muslims in general, consider the very existence of Israel to be “an insult”. I hardly think that refraining from asking security prisoners to prove that they are not armed or wired with explosives is going to make them love Israel all of a sudden. And, like Joy said, anything a kufr does is going to piss some of them off anyway. Lose-lose all around.

    And, really, I can’t believe you could even ask such a question. Like “theright” said, why not instinctively assume that the soldiers had a damn good reason for doing what they did (it should be intuitively obvious if you had stopped to think for even just a moment) instead of instinctively assuming that they were just humiliating the poor Arabs for no good reason?

    Even for you, this is bending over way too far backwards.

  • Folks, I’m sorry but unless there was some reason to actually take them outside in underwear, I don’t understand why it was necessary to humiliate them. It’s legitimate to strip and search them, but why keep them undressed and bound while taking them outside?

    But keep at it, I love it when I am called a creature of the Left and someone who doesn’t support the IDF. As I write, I am also involved in a couple of discussions over at http://www.richardsilverstein.com where they are calling me a puerile creature of the Right.

    Hmmm…I wonder where that really places me in the political spectrum… 😆

  • I don’t understand why it was necessary to humiliate them.

    I have to ask: why do you care? The ones who aren’t terrorists are run-of-the-mill criminals.

  • Please spare me the “all Palestinians are bad” crap. They’re people. Among them they have some significant loonies which get a majority of votes in elections, but for all you know every single one of these people in underwear might be a very decent person whose only way of making a living would be as a prison guard.

    Sheesh!

  • Hmm… TM… I think you misread the articles, and the situation. Non of those people in their underware were prison guards. The prison was guarded by internationals (Namely US, and British Troups.) They left, Israeli’s came in. That’s the big outcry. PA is saying it was coordinated. US and Britan are saying it wasn’t, that they pulled their soldiers out of fear.
    Basicly, the new Gov’t under Hamas stated that they intended to free their “Heros” from their unjust imprisenment. Their heros are people who committed terror acts against Israel, most notibly the mastermind behind the assasination of the former Tourism Minister.
    Israel made it clear that releasing them would not be acceptable, as they are supposed to be serving life sentances.
    International guards leave their posts, officially out of fear that Hamas was going to free these terrorists and that they didn’t want to be there when that happened.
    Israel’s official response was that after their leaving they needed to go in and take control to prevent the release of those terrorist. That’s what you see going on in that picture. At the end of the operation Israel released back to the PA anyone not known to be a terrorist. And brought back everyone else. Now there is talk of placing them all on trial in Israel.
    The issues up for debate should be wheter or not this was proper on the part of any side. Should Hamas have declared thier intention to release these kind of individuals as Terrorists? What should that tell us about this new Gov’t? Should the International troups guarding the prison really have left their posts? Was it truly a non-coordinated action? Should Israel have taken the steps it did to insure that these people did not simply walk away as free men?
    The underware thing is a reality of the confrontation. Having the building surronded there was a major standoff, including exchanges of fire. (Where did prisoners get weapons from should be a question people ask…) This is where the Israeli casualty came from. Simultainiously, many foreign nationals (Europeans, Americans, I think even an Australian, though I’d have to go through all the articles again) were kidnapped, and the PFLP was demanding the release of the Prisoners by Israel under the threat of executing these foreign nationals. (Did I mention many of those foreign nationals were only in the PA territories because they were providing humanitarian aid, or looking to provide media coverage for the Palestinian cause, there were doctors, reporters, and activists kidnapped. I also wonder if those people are still strongly in support of the Palestinians after the experiance.)
    Anyway, the standoff was tense, and lasted for a significant period of time. Several hours. On Purim no less… Finally the PA caved in to foreign pressure and physical pressence of Israels troups.
    Now we’re at the underware stage. Remember, the Israeli’s had encircled the prison, but they weren’t about to go in to face all these armed people. That doesn’t make tacticle sense at this point. Instead they order people out a few at a time. Have them drop any weapon they are carrying, and order them to strip down to ensure there was no other consealed weapon or bomb. Once they were sure the individual wouldn’t cause them harm givin the opportunity that proximity would allow, they called him forward, cuffed him, and apparently possed for a picture.
    Were there other ways to do it? Sure, you could send in a tacticle team, end up with more death, and get even more critisism. You could have just brought them out one at a time, not had them strip, and prayed they weren’t a ticking bomb. Maybe we could have set up mobile metal detectors and bomb detectors (do those even exist?) The point is that it was a tacktical decision to have them strip to their underware, not an attempt to embaras. And putting myself in the same place, I can’t think of any other way I would have been able to accomplish the same task.

  • As a soldier, I must say that the regular civilian just doesn’t understand.

    Military operations just shouldn’t be viewed by the outside. Looking from the outside in is a totally different view from those who are risking their lives. All it takes is one tiny handgun or a knife for a prisoner to make a quick move and end a partner’s life forever. Making them strip to show that there is no place to hide a weapon guarantees your fellow soldiers’ safety. Nevermind your own.

    Unfortunately, the press was allowed into the proximity of the action and the reality of the footage is out. The problem is that Arabs will always sacrifice their lives for honor. Because these pictures will lower those prisoner’s sense of honor after they’re viewed in underwear by the whole world, their only choice will be to restore their honor by carrying out a terrorist act.
    This kind of thing happens when you are trying to prove to the world that you have nothing to hide, so you allow the international press to roam around freely and take pictures of anything that is considered news worthy.

  • but for all you know every single one of these people in underwear might be a very decent person whose only way of making a living would be as a prison guard.

    You do understand that the IDF attacked a prison, correct? Prisons are where criminals are kept. The vast, vast majority of the people ordered to strip off were criminals. Some were terrorists. A few were guards – Purim Hero is incorrect to say all the guards were British/American (they were to observe how the Arab guards guarded Sa’adat and Co.). But enough members of the PLO’s “security forces” have gunned down or blown up Israeli soldiers and civilians for anyone with sense to treat them as suspected terrorists.

  • themiddle, i find it amusing that you bash the IDF for humiliating the prisoners in one paragraph and then lament the death of another IDF soldier in the next. my guess is that had these soldiers not stripped the poor prisoners down and one of them had been killed because of a concealed weapon, your post would have a slightly different tone. i think capturing known terrorists, among them one who is responsible for the murder of a minister, is worth the embarrassment of a few petty thieves. but that’s just me. also, i think we could do without your self righteous airs. every time you think about a pop singer, someone somewhere is being humiliated or murdered or being orphaned by AIDS or some such travesty. there’s a time to relfect on these events, and there’s a time to talk about pop stars if the spirit so moves you.

  • On Wednesday newspapers and TV carried pictures of Palestinian prisoners surrendering in their underwear. Immediately, this became another Israeli crime. As the New York Times said, “Israeli Army officials ordered inmates to strip to their underwear, which many did, marching out with clothing on their heads, an embarrassing and completely unnecessary provocation that trampled the dignity of any Palestinian watching that spectacle.”

    That could only have been written by a journalist who perversely chose to ignore the dangerous life of Israelis. Many of the prisoners were terrorists and having them take off their clothes ensured that they couldn’t explode a bomb in the midst of Israeli soldiers. The soldiers would have been foolish to handle it any other way, But their ordinary common sense made them, once more, a target for the wilfully uninformed.

    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=01ef3724-48e7-4c7d-bfce-7f8091c0eb7d&rfp=dta

  • TheRight, you crack me up. 😆

    Of course this was necessary. That still doesn’t explain the whole prison thing. First of all, there were plenty of Palestinian guards there despite the previous presence of British and American guards. That was part of the deal. Second, some of the Palestinian guards fired on the Israeli troops which is the reason there were some firefights and a Palestinian guard was killed.

    I buy the explanation that somehow the cameras shouldn’t have been there to capture the humiliation of these guards. Security trumps everything else andso my issue is focused on the public exposure of the underwear, not so much the process of securing these people.

    Good for the Israelis that they captured these people in the van. Sadly, it is very troubling that they came from the same village as the 10 year old girl who was killed the other day.

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