Here is an interesting development in Jerusalem.
In Israel the issue of women’s prayer is automatically associated with Conservative or Reform Judaism, but even in the large Orthodox community it has become fairly controversial, especially the inclusion of women in a minyan (prayer quorum).
At the center of the dispute is the Shira Hadasha synagogue in Jerusalem’s German Colony, whose members promote equality between men and women within the framework of Jewish law. The synagogue defines itself as Orthodox-egalitarian, and its members define themselves as Orthodox in every way. The men’s and women’s sections of the synagogue are separated by a curtain, with half the space given to the men and the other half to the women.
At Shira Hadasha women are called up to the Torah and read the Pesukei Dezimra (scriptural passages), as well as Anim Zemirot (the Hymn of Glory). Women also serve as cantors in situations in which a small child may be called up according to Jewish law. In other parts of the service, men serve as cantors.
And later:
What is the basis for Shira Hadasha’s approach to prayer? One basis is an article written by Rabbi Daniel Sperber, a recipient of the Israel Prize in Judaism. In a conversation with Ynet, Rabbi Sperber noted that “the members of the synagogue definitely define themselves as Orthodox, and for those who pray there it’s a wonderful place. I personally am not accustomed to this type of prayer. I’m used to praying in the conventional type of service, and by the same token I don’t pray in a Hassidic synagogue either. I think that Jewish law permits it, and this does not affect the legitimacy of the place.â€
In his article Professor Sperber claims that the issue of human dignity supersedes the negative commandments, and also distinguishes between different synagogues. If there is a synagogue that does not feel that prohibiting women from being called up to the Torah is a moral problem, then it must not allow women to read the Torah. On the other hand, a synagogue that feels that this would be a violation of human dignity – that is, the dignity of women – must allow it. The congregants are entitled to make this decision for themselves.
Professor Sperber has no connection to Shira Hadasha, partly because he lives in the Old City of Jerusalem, and the German Colony is too far away.
He responded delicately to Rabbi Ariel’s verdict: “Among Jews there have been disputes throughout all the generations, but this doesn’t mean anything…”
Read the full article at Ynetnews.
Just a note–
I do not think everyone at Shira Chadsha would consider themselves Orthodox. Some of who may not define themselves as such because of the institution that it represents
shirah chadashah isn’t really a synagogue…it meets in iccy. and most of the people i know who go there aren’t orthodox. they’re conservative. and they’re visiting americans — pardes students and the like.
“and most of the people i know who go there aren’t orthodox. they’re conservative. and they’re visiting americans — pardes students and the like.”
Ouch! Tell us more about gender developments in Israel, TM. Please.
Um, Kelsey, did you notice that I simply cut and pasted the article? You know why? To avoid
idioticattacks on The Middle. Write a comment on Ynet if you feel their reporting is dubious. Besides, is it possible that Mobi is wrong? It happens sometimesand of course when he’s wrong he doesn’t apologize, merely keeps up the silly, kindergarten level joke targeting his guests, or simply bans them from his site.“its members define themselves as Orthodox in every way”
Ha! Yeah right. The only female rabbis-in-training (at the HUC) that I met during my year in Israel were at Shira Chadasha! And that was rabbiS, plural. Definitely not Orthodox.
When I was there one Shabbos morning, I remember watching a man following a young woman in (presumably his daughter), and he didn’t even realize there was a mechitzah and was following his daughter over to the women’s side, when she turned around and pointed him to the men’s section. He was very confused for a moment (obviously American and used to mixed seating) and then made his way to the men’s section.
I would call it a Reformadox kahal, but definitely not Orthodox. And yeah, like Mob said, mostly Americans.
TM,
Your attacks on Moby are out of line here. He checked out this kehilla personally, and his own investigation is contrary to how YNET framed the article. So yes, I would bet he is correct. And don’t personalize his statements. He didn’t attack you personally here–not at all!, but corrected the misinformed article you quoted. It’s not your fault, but don’t take it personally if Moby knows better than YNET. He lives in Israel and all that. When we (you and me)decide to comment about policy and going ons there, we have an increased risk of getting facts wrong. That’s why I don’t usually tackle Israeli stuff. Unless it is based in the Diaspora. I risk someone like Moby or CK knowing better and slam dunking my ass. And I hate when that happens.
But hey — that’s your call. And having said that, feel free to comment on New York issues more frequently than you usually do. Bwahahahaha
Well, apparently it was launched by the daughter of David Hartman. From what I can tell, they consider themselves Orthodox and are allowing women to participate according to ideas they believe comport with halacha.
Shira hadasha website
Feminist Orthodox
Some articles about the movement:
Here’s one.
It seems they get around the minyan (quorum) prohibitions by requiring ten men and ten women or a minyan.
Here are two halachic analyses:
Shapiro
Sperber
TM,
All too often, it seems to be that a push is made by those in Orthodox garb (that is to say, a mechitza present, yippee!) even though their minyan is made up of anything but Orthodox Jews. As a Conservative Jew, you have every right to debate why and how things should “evolve”, but when you move into “Orthodox,” well, you know…it isn’t really your turf or your call. You have to understand that those of us who consider ourselves Orthodox — even if non-practicing–are going to be wary of claims that our world is fast becoming more like yours. You can certainly claim we are stuck in the 4th century (even though we are not) and tell us we are insensitive (you know how sensitive I am to such accusations — I always bend over backwards to show I care soooo much, and then you can say “but if you really were sensitive, you would implement such and such!” Don’t worry I will fall for that one every time. Not.) but when you start defining for us what is within the parpameters of Orthodox…well, then it becomes a bit of a charade. No matter what fringe progressive source you can find. And you will certainly find a few among the usual suspects.
But they do not have authority in Normative Jewish circles.
Please note — and this is important — you are not doing anything that a lot of people aren’t doing, and I don’t mean to suggest otherwise. But it still doesn’t make it accurate.
“Normative” as in Normative Orthodox.
But you know that. 🙂
Hey, Mobi has these attacks coming and knows it. He owes me an apology and should act like a big boy and deliver it.
As for whether this kehilla is or isn’t Orthodox is not relevant to me. They consider themselves Orthodox so why should I take anybody else’s word for it? After reading Mobi and God Squad, I proceeded to do some research and provided the links. Doesn’t this suggest to you that I was open-minded enough to listen? In fact, I didn’t even dispute their remarks but provided the links, like the article, without commentary that shows where I lean.
If this is a fringe group, so be it. There are plenty of hassidic groups that started out on the fringes. They believe they are Orthodox and I respect that. If Mobi dismisses them as visiting Americans or, horror of horrors, Pardes students, so what? They believe they are Orthodox and are trying to do what they are doing on the basis of halachic rulings. I found that interesting and posted about it. That’s all. No agenda. No politics. Nothing but an interesting movement that touches on some issues we’ve been discussing.
Tell Mobi I won’t hold my breath waiting for that apology.
No agenda? No politics? C’mon, TM. You have been bashing the Orthos non-stop on the egal issue. Unremitting. And you are trying to make these fringe groups into something more significant than they are. Because of your politics; because of your agenda.
The irony is that Moby is way more sensitive than I am towards communities such as this kehilla. But he is honest and doesn’t want to call what isn’t an Orthodox congregation Orthodox.
You should try to be more like him.
I personally know a few people who consider themselves Orthodox and daven at Shira Chadasha, though my perception is that the majority of the participants would NOT call themselves Orthodox. Still, it doesn’t matter; the people RUNNING the place call it Orthodox, and believe that their practices fall into the Orthodox framework, if only at the FAR left of it.
My question is, why is this in the news NOW? Shira Chadasha has been around, doing their thing, for years!
Also, the subtitle of the article suggests that Shira Chadasha counts women in their women, but the article doesn’t address that (though I admit I just skimmed). Am I wrong? Or is it just a misleading headline?
Uh oh, Kelsey, what am I supposed to do now, be more like Mobi or more like Sarah?
Sarah, what they do to get around the minyan issue is to require that ten men and ten women be in attendance. It’s actually a brilliant solution.
Yeah. Brilliant suggestion. Try it every weekday morning. See how long you wait until ten people show up on the co-ed side of the mechitiza. In every Orthodox shul.
That’s going to work really great. Should spread like wildfire. Just like the chassidic movement, indeed.
A completely useless recommendation for the Orthodox masses.
Which is fine with me. 🙂
Hmmm…one of us seems to be quite heavily invested in this topic.
You guys are missing the point. If Shirah Chadashah is packed full of conservative and reform people, and even female rabbis in training, isn’t it interesting that they would regularly attend a service that calls itself orthodox, in which women can “only” do certain things and are “stuck” behind a mechitzah? You might argue that instead of their attendence making the shul ‘less orthodox,’ the shul makes the attendees more so………
Yes, Miriam. It’s sort of like Parah Aduma: metameh et ha’tehorim u’metaher et hatme’im – in a figurative sense, of course.
an interesting defense of Sirah Chadashah is Professor Sperber. “The issue of human dignity supersedes the negaive commandments”. Wouldn’t using this defense automatically classify them as reform? If I’m not mistaken, even conservative wouldn’t knock of 365 commandments just like that.
Also, TM, the fact that all you did was quote an article, doesn’t absolve you from taking the hits. Don’t post others opinions as facts. Unless you are willing to back them up.
Your attacks on Moby are out of line here. He checked out this kehilla personally, and his own investigation is contrary to how YNET framed the article. So yes, I would bet he is correct.
He is correct. Shira Chadasha’s congregation is almost entirely composed of Anglos, in particular those aforementioned Pardes students, tourists, Anglo Hebrew U students who catch a cab down to the German Colony from Mount Scopus for Shabbat, HUC/CY students, more leftwing yeshiva kids, and all the many, many upper class young Anglo “credit card olim” of the German Colony (which is increasingly becoming an Anglo neighborhood). Reform/Reconstructionist Kol Ha-Neshama, right around the corner, is a similar story, except with less olim and students.
In any case, even when left-Orthodox or Conservative or Reform synagogues exist, Israelis generally don’t attend them. Maybe that’s because those movements in Israel have become entirely associated, willingly or otherwise, with Anglo tourists and olim. For what it’s worth, you won’t find many Israelis in firmly Orthodox Carlebach-y synagogues either. But there could also be other reasons.
I love a good Carlebach minyan – but not every Shabbat! That’s just too wild. Peace!
Ah Shira Chadasha… I actually like the fact that they wait for 10 men and 10 women to be present before functioning like a minyan. That’s nice. Really. I don’t know how well that would work all week, but if women felt like they were needed and really counted then maybe theywould show up more. Daily minyan attendance is not something that is considered important for women. But women are part of my community and there’s no reason for them to not participate in one of the strongest and most powerful community building excercises in Judaism. I frankly don’t give a shit who goes to Shira Chadasha – although if there were more Kurds and Moroccans, maybe I’d go too. But community is community. Jews getting together with other Jews to celebrate Shabbat is a holy thing – it’s one of the key things that has kept us together all these years – it is the foundation of our Jewish identity, whether we live in Meah Shearim or the Lower East side. So while I may not be totally comfortable with this Minyan, I still say kol hakavod. There. I said it. But the YNet article is still painfully sucky.
Ok- what seems to be lacking here is a comment from someone who goes there relatively regularly. So I’ll volunteer, shall I?! For the record, plenty of people who attend define themselves as orthodox, including virtually all the founders. What is nice is that plenty of people who don’t *wish* to define themselves or be defined can feel comfortable. And that doesn’t make it a reform/conservadox/conservative community: That’s what makes it so very attractive.
But just to pop some of these comment balloons on one particular point- while there are lots and lots and LOTS of tourists (yes, mostly Americans) there every single week, you’re very wrong to label it as an exclusively Anglo Kehilla. I’m not denying that plenty of Olim/Students/Whatever attend, but the Bet Knesset committee is mostly natives, and all its communal activity is held in Ivrit. The only ostensible Anglo influence you can pinpoint is when they repeat some of the announcements in English (pertinent for the tourists.)
But while you’re all Anglo-bashing, bear in mind that the Yakar and Yedidya communities both created similar storms re some of the halachik boundaries they appeared to “cross” when they were originally founded in Jerusalem (by Anglos, if I’m not mistaken) yet the controversy eventually dies and the communities become “owned” by the local Israelis.
For important clarification of the Minyan issue, read the comment “From a Member” in the talkback- she summarises and corrects the author.
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2004/03/womens-prayer-groups-coming-soon.html
Series of blogposts by an ortho-centrist treating this compelling issue in an aticulate and learned analysis of the substantive issues.
Go to the sidebar on the right, control-f “women” and you’ll see links to eight blog posts on this.
i eat my own poo
[Editor’s note – this post was written by Mobius. The email he used was “[email protected]”]
i davened at shira chadasha (which was a quarter mile from my apartment) two shabbatot out of four every month last year … i think i have a good handle on what their composition is.
further, ynet is more often incorrect than correct in their reporting, to which dave will attest as per their jewlicious story.
finally, i have only ever banned four people from jewschool — and i let two of them back on. the only two who are presently banned are avi green and jewish whistleblower.
and i often admit when i’m wrong. in fact, more often than not. i just don’t like you.
Young Mobi, who gives a hoot whether you like me or not? You did something wrong. Own it. If I have to wait until Yom Kippur to hear your apology, I might think you’re not being sincere.
Equipoise, after skimming the articles on Hirhurim, I didn’t get the impression that they’re tackling precisely the same issue. He is referring to women’s prayer groups whereas Shira Chadasha is a prayer group that includes both men and women. Some of the issues overlap of course and it was an interesting read, so thanks for the lead. I will say that I was struck by the fact that all the scholars he used were men, and all of them except for the one he dismissed as an inferior scholar, essentially gave strong halachic analyses as to why women should not have prayer groups, or should not lead prayers in public, etc. To be honest, I was disappointed with the wall they put up and found it somewhat offensive. I would hope that the two scholars whose work Shira Chadasha bases its egalitarian service would have enjoyed the respect of those scholars Hirhurim studies on this issue and perhaps would have opened their eyes.
PP, thank you for your insight.
ck, precisely. Since when did we become the Israeli Rabbinate bashing “Anglo” Jews and/or their practices? They could have Jewish Martians worshipping there next to “Pardes students” and they should still be respected.
Bartholomew, so I guess the problem isn’t the “tone” but rather the content. Good, it’s about time somebody told us what this has all been about.
There’s one alternative minyan I have yet to hear mentioned:
Let me give you the link:
And now for something completely different.
what did i do “wrong”? i made you eat your own poo? oh the horror. i throw myself upon the mercy of the heavenly court.
turd.
Do we have a Freudian expert in the house to help explain Mobi’s fixation with feces?
No Mobi, that’s not what you did wrong, that was merely a by-product and the result of your immaturity. Now breathe deep, let go of yet another tantrum that seems to be overtaking you, and try hard to reconfigure what happened the last time I posted on your site. I know you can do it, young one, just focus. Relax and focus.
ok i have no idea what’s up with tm and moby
but shy guy? that video was awesome. even with the horrific accents, it still gave me chills
I davened at Shira Chadasha about once a month this past academic year, sometimes more (I lived in Har Hatzofim, and Talpiot Mizrach, so I couldn’t always manage it)
I’d say it’s heavily anglo, heavily non ortho. But there’s a serious core of people, who live here permanently, and identify as halachic, if not as Orthodox.
it’s the transient folks who tend to be the non-halachic. My guess is that theyre either exploring more traditional services, or they really like the tfila at SC. Or both.
Hmph. I save my experimentation for OUTSIDE the syngagogue.
Rebecca is right. As a member of SH, I am aware of who are regulars — there are a core of members who are Anglo (including many from the UK and Ireland) (or other Western) olim, Professor Aviezer Ravitsky’s daughter is a leader, many Bar Ilan Jewish studies/philosophy (Noam Zion, etc.) professors, but there is also another core (perhaps close to half of members) of Israelis, including a handful of Mizrachim. Unlike Shir Hadash on the other side of Emek it functions in Hebrew (some announcements are also repeated in English but many of those are targeted at visitors). It looks less balanced because it does have a lot of tourists (who are the ones who aren’t always Orthodox / halakhically-observant although I have noticed several US Orthodox rabbis, for example) and visiting students (i.e. Pardes students, a few JTS students, etc.) But membership wise it’s O-affiliated Jews and at least half are native Israelis.
Oh, and, not surprisingly, the YNetnews article got a lot wrong. As mentiooned, SH does not count women in a minyan though it does play the 10 men/10 women game that it can get away with due to its popularity but which wouldn’t be feasible for a daily minyan (which I wish there was a SH type daily minyan in J’lem)
So far it’s PP, Rebecca, Amechad and Sarah reporting one thing and Mobi reporting a different thing. Perhaps Mobi is a little distracted by all those, uh, tourist and Pardes girls?
or you could read my comment again in which i say that “most of the people i know who go there aren’t orthodox. they’re conservative. and they’re visiting americans — pardes students and the like.” and pp, rebecca, and amechad have all verified that the composition is heavily anglo and non-orthodox. if the leaders are ortho-yisraelim and define as such, that’s dandy and all, but that doesn’t mean they’re not in the minority.
oh, and tm sucks. hard.
Our family had the pleasure of davening a few times on Shabbat over the past school year with a local university minyan modeled after Shira Chadasha. It was wonderful on all accounts, although the age range was on the grad student side, which is about years below the wife and I, so we felt a bit like elders-before-our-time. There was joyful singing for many of the prayers with great leading in a variety of style by both the men and women. They took the boundaries they had set/accepted seriously: mechitsa, only men lead sharcharith and musaf, and men count for the minyan – but they prefer to also have ten women present as well. Actually, there were usually more women present – and earlier – than the men. Most of the women had Orthodox backgrounds, and the men seemed to be split down the middle Orthodox and Conservative.
Would I call that minyan Orthodox? I couldn’t care less. What matters is that they have found a path they believe conforms to halacha to include women and offer them expression as prayer leaders that is otherwise not usually offered by Orthodoxy. To which I say, “Rock on!”
I live on a small religious kibbutz in northern Israel where the vast majority of the residents are Israeli. There are a few middle-aged Americans, most of whom married Israelis from their Bnei Akiva gar’in and now have 5-7 kids who don’t speak any English. I’m just writing to add that a number of young people who grew up on the kibbutz live in Jerusalem now (studying or whatever) and attend Shira Chadasha as one of their Batei Knesset. These young Israelis and their spouses certainly don’t consider themselves reform, conservative, or anything else (most would tell you they have never even been inside a Conservative Beit Knesset). I would say they consider themselves “Orthodox,” except that I also want to remind readers that “Orthodox” is not a word that is naturally a part of religious-Israeli discourse. Besides the fact that it’s obviously not a Hebrew word or a word that comes from our traditional Jewish texts (the modern Israeli rendering of it is “Ortodoxia” for the noun Orthodoxy), it’s also a relatively new concept for most Dati (religious) Israelis. In any case, my main point is just to add that in my experience, young religious (dati) Israelis from the north apparently do consider Shira Chadasha to be an acceptable prayer option, whether or not they’ve bothered to consider whether it fits into the American concept of “Orthodox.”