Today at the very popular site, Little Green Footballs, the site’s owner, Charles Johnson, commented that the Wikepedia entry about LGF was slanted and unfair. Very rapidly the Wikipedia entry was modified and he has remarked that it is now much more balanced. When I clicked, I was surprised to find that Jewlicious was one of the sources used by the original authors and the specific post was this one. I have watched my point of view change over the past couple of years and do read LGF, although not frequently. As such, I have modified my initial post to include the following:

This post is now linked to the Wikipedia entry about LGF. Quite a bit of time has passed since my original post and the world has also changed somewhat with respect to the conflict developing between parts of the Muslim world and the West and my views have also evolved. In that regard, I want to provide a more balanced view of LGF.

While I still strongly disagree with some of the language and nature of attacks made in some of the discussions at LGF, and also do not side with many of the prevalent views on there (as examples, I’ll point to the Iraq war, Democrats or the quality of the Bush Administration), I have to admit that it is a site that I read not infrequently and that has captured the emerging threat to the West, including Israel, the US and Canada, from pockets of the Islamic world far more effectively than most other sites on the Internet and certainly with more honesty than most of the mainstream media.

I will also note LGF’s strong support of Israel is on target and no less welcome than some of their other coverage. LGF broke the floodgates to the various photo and news manipulation stories that came out during the Israel-Hizbullah war and in so doing provided an invaluable service to truth and to holding the feet of a biased media to the fire. I may still find the discussions redundant and boring (and sometimes untasteful to put it nicely) and rarely read them, but they serve as a repository and source for immediate and up-to-date information for Charles Johnson from across the Internet and the media and have become an invaluable part of the important information and analysis he is able to provide.

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  • I’m proud of you TM. I saw the link as well and started wondering, but then I came here and saw your new post. I completely agree with you. Please don’t forget that the comments in LGF (which I usually never read because of time restraints and redundancy) are unmoderated and the responsibility for the racist or idiotic statements made by readers are their own. LGF is a great friend of Israel and Jews worldwide, MUCH more than say Jewschool or the rest of the self-hating brigade team.

  • Eric said: “the comments in LGF (which I usually never read because of time restraints and redundancy) are unmoderated and the responsibility for the racist or idiotic statements made by readers are their own.”

    True. But it kind of bothers me anyway. I mean why is it that a site that is so pro-Israel attracts such a significant number of hateful people? Can’t one be pro-Israel and not racist – not that LGF or most of its commentors are, just some of them. LGF has almost become defined by its commentors rather than just by its poster.

    I guess I’m just looking for a balance whereby one’s support for Israel ought to have nothing to do with one’s political orientation. A homeland for the Jews has got nothing to do with supply side economics or new deal liberalism. Israel and Zionism is not monolithic that way. Both secular kibbutznikim and religious settlers havee given their lives in defense of the state – Zionism has both right wing and left wing elements – Israel is a country made up of adherents to inumerable ideologies and citizens with wildly divergent opinions. I consider myself a left of center liberal and a strong supporter of strong and viable Israel – why should that be so unusual?

  • “LGF has almost become defined by its commentors rather than just by its poster.”

    What? Where? At Jewschool and Dailykos? This is a matter of perception. Considering its the first site I opne in the morning and never read comments I never formed that opinion. It seems like this is something anti-LGF people drum up any time LGF is mentioned, “but the comments are racist!!!”. As someone who only reads the posts themselves, I define LGF by the Charles’ posts.

    Now, we can look at DailyKos, Jewschool, and/or Kabombfest and the posts themselves expose so much bias that I can form a negative opinion of all three.

    Bottomline, many Jewish bloggers are affected by such a guilt driven nuerosis of always trying to be fair, many of us have to go to a gentiles site for a completely pro-Israel POV and I’m fine with that. Hell, I’d start an all pro-Israel blog but then I’d have to deal with little chumps like Mobius trying to tell me I’m a bad Jew. Everyone is free to think and feel what they want, but I’m not objective. I love the US and Israel and I hate our enemies. I don’t need to hear their side anymore, I’d rather hear about Palestinian car swarms, workplace accidents, president dhimmi carter, and the fact that right now, a raging anti-semite from Iran’s former government is in our country calling for Jihad. Did anyone else give that much coverage to this issue all Americans and Jews should be up in arms about?

  • Hey, hey, hey Eric. Please don’t put words into my mouth. I never said I was anti-LGF. Sheesh, I am a registered commentor there and have been since they began requiring registration.When commenting there, I don’t use offensive language and truth be told, neither do most commentors. But enough do that it’s an issue.

  • In a comment here someone once asked me if I follow the Little Green Footballs site. I did not know what it was, so I googled it up and checked the site out.

    I got the impression that it was somekind of hate site. I’m not saying it is, but that’s the feeling I got for some reason. I haven’t visited the site again since.

  • Everybody ought to lighten up on Charles.

    He’s been at the forefront of this war for a long, long time–and is as much a target as many soldiers on the front lines.

    And y’all have never felt any hate in your hearts? [Not speaking for Charles here, but…] If not, you are better people than I.

  • Well, if you hate 1) the US, 2) Israel, or 3) Jews, you won’t like LGF too much. Guess that’s the main point.

  • Yeah, and if you don’t hate Muslims, liberals, feminists, Democrats, civil libertarians, illegal immigrants, environmentalists, peace activists and the French, you also won’t like LGF.

  • That’s absurd. I don’t “hate Muslims, liberals, feminists, Democrats, civil libertarians, illegal immigrants, environmentalists, peace activists and the French” and I love LGF. I’m sure you’ll tell me I’m wrong and how much I hate all those people or parties.

    Would it make you feel better if I tell you I voted for Gore, have a Palestinian friend/roommate, hire illegal immigrants, am an environmentalist, and plan on visiting France with my feminist, vegetarian wife soon and that I love LGF or are you absolutely positive all those things have to correlate?

  • Well, looking to offer a look at DailyKos just now, so that I can be TheMiddle, I was confronted with this and this.

    So even with my politics being left of center, and even though I probably agree more often with the Democratic party than the Republican party, I find myself strongly disagreeing with the diaries and general gist of the comments. Since these folks have proven they can have an impact on the party and elections, I think the Democrats may find that some of their supporters are feeling wishy-washy about supporting them. Between reading LGF and DailyKos regarding Israel AND the supposed nefarious impact of US Jews upon the US, however, there is night and day between these two sites.

  • TM, A couple of things regarding DailyKOS:

    1) DailyKOS criticism for the Saudi-lobby influence on foreign policy in the US has been just as great as that towards AIPAC. One example is the notorious “rescue” of the Saudi VIP’s days after 9/11. Also popular are Saudi links to various oil organizations and politicians.

    2) I don’t read LGF, but does it allow anyone to make blog entries? DailKOS does (after one week) and diaries are rarely deleted unless they are blatant trolls (like “Why Pedophilia is Okay”) or Blog Spam. Thus we do get a number of stupid diaries on a daily basis.

    3) None of the “Israel=Evil” diaries are ever front-paged, which shows how much value the movers and shakers over there have for them.

    4) These diaries are almost always squarely contested in the comments section, where there are plenty who call them out for what they are.

    5) DailyKOS isn’t a forum for nationalistic praise or similar clap-trap. You’ll see just as many flag-waving USA diaries as you would for any other country, which is to say very few if any. Anyhow, I think the JBlogosphere covers this area quite sufficiently.

    6) Your traditional right-wing antisemite, unlike those on the left-wing, is probably not going to be a heavy user of The Internets. Although I’m sure you’d find plenty of right-wing antisemitism over on stormfront or similar white power sites, most of these type don’t opine online. Keep that in mind when making comparisons.

    7) The DailyKOS, as well as the hard-left, favorite for 2008 is Russ Feingold by a *huge* margin. I do not think it is possible to be a true antisemite and support someone who is an unapologetic Jew and supporter of Israel for president. Call me crazy, but that’d be like the KKK supporting Jesse Jackson for president.

    Conclusion: Just because 10-20% of the hard-left are anti-Semites does not make the rest of us are. Do we find the frequency of these “Israel=Evil” diaries annoying? You bet. What’s the best way to deal with these idiots? Ignore them. Most of us avoid these diaries like the plague. Trying to argue with these people is just a waste of time.

    As an aside, DovBear noted awhile back that Charles Johnson seems to be the right age to enlist. One has to wonder why his fat ass isn’t serving over in Iraq? Has he got a butt boil, like Limbaugh? Has he got better things to do, like Cheney? Wonder what his excuse is?

  • As someone who only reads the posts themselves, I define LGF by the Charles’ posts.

    Ok Eric, please show me a post by Markos which is anti-Israel or antisemitic. In fact, I don’t think that any front-page diarist (there are only 8-9 people who have this privilege) has ever posted anything the least bit anti-Israel. Uh-oh, looks like someone who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones.

  • FWIW, Charles Johnson is 53. Too old even to enlist in the National Guard.

  • Eric,

    I wasn’t implying that you hate those groups, but that such hatred is an essential motivating sentiment for those repsonsible for LGF. Indeed, there is little evidence to suggest that the participants at LGF are motivated by the pursuit of any affirmative causes.

  • Both David and Nick are entitled to their own opinions. I didn’t have to go much deeper than the “Screw Them” comments about my fellow Americans to know what a slimy shit stirrer Kos is, or how good his election predictions are :). Even if Kos himself isn’t an anti-Semite (nor did I say this anywhere), the fact that I can dig up anti-Semitic material all over his site with ease and that he routinely, just like Nick apparently, bashes anyone on the right as if they are a greater threat to this country than Islamic Fundamentalists themselves convinced me of the pathetic, inverted, and idiotic mentality that the reality-based KosKids (why do you think they call them kids anyway Nick, who is convinced 50 years olds are of enlistment age) have over there. Please, don’t try to convince me, its futile. I have been taught about anti-semitism from Jews who experienced it their wholes lives and just a cursory glance at DailyKos oozes with it, no matter how much you want to whitewash it. Enjoy your little radical leftist paradise over there but don’t drag others into the swamp please. Nasty.

  • Look people, you have to be apolitical or blind not to know the left is hard on Israel and soft on terorism.

    Nick, It wasn’t that Kos posts anything that could be considered anti-semite. It’s the silences when support is needed, sort of like Moslem Clerics on terror attacks. Their silence speaks for them.

    Where was Kos’s position, where was the largest majority of liberal or left sites posts during the latest attacks on Israel? He always has something to say on almost every other subject……doesn’t he?

    A friend in need is a friend in deed. Leftist’s are not your friends, Israel, as The Middle and many more Jews have discovered in the last terrorfying ordeal the independent and democratic State of Israel, deserving of the free worlds support, found out.

    Kos and kids are leftists.

  • dKos does not have any overall party line on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Indeed dKos doesn’t have party lines on anything, except supporting Democrats to get elected for the most part.

    So yes, SOME commenters are more sympathetic to Palestinians … and SOME are more sympathetic to Israelis.

    So yeah, I guess if having SOME members who are sharply critical of Israeli policies makes dKos a “bad” web site than I guess it is bad.

    Although by the above definition many groups are “bad” including many Jewish and Israeli groups.

  • 1) It’s not that they are “sharply critical of Israeli policies”, it’s that they are committed to demonizing Israel whether it takes embellishment, lies, misrepresentation, canards, or just straight up anti-Semites. They can use the old anti-Zionism or anti-Israel-ism is not anti-Semites, but honest people know better.

    2) “Although by the above definition many groups are “bad” including many Jewish and Israeli groups.

    Steve, you are 100% percent right. You hit the nail on the head. Yes, there are even Jews and Israelis that wish for Israel’s demise, heck, there is a whole thread dedicated to one of those fools right here at this blog. Believe it or not, even Jews are capable of being ignorant or malicious fools. That’s no surprise.

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