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Rabbi Yonah


  • Most annoying/frustrating thing…is it just me or are the Neutrei Karta popping up in EVERY news story about this event? I realize why, from a curiosity standpoint, but without the right context I think it sends such a distorted message to those out there who don’t know better, AND without knowing much about Judaism have ideas of Jewish authority that are attached solely to black hatters.

  • I don’t like them much BUT they did go there and tell everyone not to deny the holocaust which was a pretty brave move.

  • so do the Neutrei Karta deny the holocaust? and they reside in Israel yes? The idea of anti-zionists in Israel always gets me riled up.

  • The involvement of the Neutrei Karta in this event implicates a rather compelling question that occurred to me pertaining to Israeli politics. To wit: given Lieberman’s proposed mass expulsion of a portion of Israel’s citizenry based on “security concerns” arising from the disloyalty thereof, it goes without saying that the NK are covered by that expulsion policy, correct? After all, Lieberman isn’t simply advocating a policy of pure racism against Arabs, right? This isn’t apartheid, is it? If not, it seems to me it is necessary to include in the policy a group of Israeli citizens that is unsurpassed in its sympathetic embrace of terrorists and its malevolent hatred of the Jewish State.

  • Yeah, Jon C. – that’s what kinda confused me. As sleazy as the NK are about Israel I didn’t think they’d bend over for for a Nazi.

    I’m sure their organization isn’t based in Israel. I used to see their full-page anti-Israel ads in the NYT and assumed they may be NYC based and from their website I’d say that’s the case.

    There could be a positive benefit to all this (if we click our heels three times). Could this have shamed certain “liberal” elements into rethinking their positions? Could the little Hitler have pushed even the Coles and Mearsheimers away? How could even Chomsky rationalize this? Just a smiley face emoticon way of looking at it.

  • SN – c’mon now. That’s not true. Not in one report I read. And a picture speaks a thousand words.


    But here’s the most inneresting little sidebar. I always like going to the Indian press because they pull up stuff you just don’t hear everywhere else…


    Like I said, this could end up being a good thing. Kind of a little Hitler-like dude shooting himself in the foot. Let’s see…

  • I asked this over on JewSchool, too:

    Out of curiosity, has any Orthodox group excommunicated Neturei Karta? Or any condemning statement?

  • OYster,

    IF you ask some Kaballistic Rabbis they’ll tell you there’s a screw up on their lines somewhere. like a non -Jewish mother in the tree or a faulty conversion.

  • Oh yes, really. NK has ties to haredi communities. If a bomb goes off in a haredi community, NK speaks to the terrorist group who did it, and reminds them haredim aren’t Zionists.

    They function as a liason.

  • DK! Surely you’re not implying that serving as a liaison to help those committed to the killing of Jews differentiate between the house Jews and the uppity Jews (i.e. 90+% of the Jewish people) excuses this kind of behavior.

    But given that the Neturei Karta is a very small group, all descended from the same stock, that practices (or is forced to practice) strict endogamy, it won’t be more than a couple generations before they’re rendered droolingly irrelevant.

  • I wonder how many mills that asshole got for attending?

    Israel should have dropped nuclear bombs on Iran at that moment.

    Or today would be fine.

    On what basis do the Orthodox maintain their optimism for Israel surviving this Hilter?

  • I am perplexed why doesn’t a so-called Jewish leader or Rabbi or someone not only place them in Cherem but officially call them Rodef, and unofficially someone should pay the right people to do the job.

  • “officially call them Rodef, and unofficially someone should pay the right people to do the job.””

    You mean like a fatwah? I didn’t think we did that.

  • And when the Nazi’s came the first time, they probably just marched right into the camps.

    The NK – they’re Satmar’s right? There’s a big population in Brooklyn and Kiras Joel NY.

    They supposedly shun communication with the outside world – no tv, internet, etc – just torah/talmud learning. If this is true why are they bothering with something so secular?

    When I see these guys, I no longer wonder how the holocaust happened.

  • Don’t say they are Satmars. They are just them, all nine of them or so.

    My baloney detector goes wild around them. The guy in the picture’s hair is funny. It is too short, and where are his payot?

    When is Halloween?

  • Maybe his payot are stuck behind his glasses, but then his beard is too short.

    When is Halloween?

  • Michael said,

    “Surely you’re not implying that serving as a liaison to help those committed to the killing of Jews differentiate between the house Jews and the uppity Jews (i.e. 90+% of the Jewish people) excuses this kind of behavior.”

    I am not. I am saying it may be happening. I do not mean to suggest it is excusable.

  • Israel has to deal with this because instead of listening to Rabbi Meir Kahane they banned him.

    Now they have a fifth column in Gaza, in the west bank and in Lebanon all supported by Iran.

    Israel and Jews who are ‘democratic’ and ‘tolerant’ are the real cause of our troubles.

    Arabs out of Israel now!

  • Bravo on the New Testament reference! Will our friend meet the same fate as Judas?:

    R: Amicus meus osculi me tradidit signo: quem osculatus fuero, ipse est, tenete eum: hoc malum fecit signum, qui per osculum adimplevit homicidum: Infelix praetermisit pretium sanguinis, et in fine laqueo se suspendit.

    V: Bonum erat ei, si natus non fuisset homo ille.

  • They’re not Satmars but some of them claim dual affiliation. The NK website comes out of their upstate NYC yeshiva. There’s a decent overview of their history on Answers.com that touches on the Satmar-NK connection. They’ve had a long love/hate relationship with Satmar, which is now on the hate side after the NK’s vigil for Arafat and this Iran thing.

    What’s still odd is that there’s nothing in their writing or speechmaking to imply they’re holocaust deniers, or even questioners. Unless someone can point out some examples.

  • Come on, you make really an ass of yourselves. Don’t you realize how ridiculous you are with your new “holocaust” religion. Even your own people don’t believe those spooky Hololulu stories any longer, which you try to impose on the world through barbaric terror and intimidation.

  • Steve Rick’s read up above. I stated earlier no one considers them Jewish. Ask a Kaballist ( a real Kaballist, not a Reform, Conservative, or Madonna “rabbi” Kaballist) Rabbi. They’ll tell you there’s an invalid conversion on the tree or a mumzer status somewhere.

  • Having sadly spoken with these men on many occasions, i can only agree that something is absolutely and horribly wrong with them. They are not Jewish in any normative sense. I cant explain it, you have to see how they hate other Jews, how they conduct themselves with Jew-haters of the highest order, how they cavort with women, its just too strange. Their antics out on the college campuses are not seen by the people in Monsey, if it were, I wonder what would happen.

  • Shlomo,

    Not quite sure what does it matter if they are of “illegitimate” descent or not ?? When its all set and done we are who we are and we are WHAT we decide we WANT to BE. Thats why you have Jews like Chomsky and NK.

  • Not all Satmar are Neutri Karta and not all Neutri Karta are Satmar.

    Satmar is a hasidic sect that are not zionists and or particularly accept the state of Israel.

    Neutri Karta is an ORGANIZATION made of INDIVIDUALS who not only deny the legitimacy of the state of Israel but also actively Anti Israel and Anti Zionist.

    There are other small hassidic or ultra orthodox sects who may not necessarily accept the state of Israel but they are not part of this group which is universally condemned (even by Satmar).

  • When is Halloween? Anybody can obtain a coat.

    Esther seems to have some interesting links! She should get a prize, and a trophy for her mantlepiece.

    Old proverb: “There is a lot of money in disillusionment.”

  • This Neutri Karta is absolutely insane. They are as mentally challenged as the people they like (Ahmadinegad, Arafat and etc.). It is important to know that

    1) they don’t deny the holocuast but rather claim that the secular zionists use the holocaust card to legitimize the state of Israel and its activities

    2) in their own sick way they actually think they are doing Kiddush Hashem by telling the world that whatever Israel is doing does not represent the Jewish people or Judaism

    Their entire stupid and non sense ideology virtually denies basic Torah concepts (ie. Israel being promised to the Jews), entire years of Rabbic Tradition and writing. Instead their ENTIRE ideology rests on ONE sentence in the Talmud regarding an apparent pact the Jews had with Elijah the Prophet that they wouldn’t mess with foreign powers to end the exile before the arrival Mosiach.

    They are basically INSANE>

  • As stated again, they are NOT Jews.
    There is an invalid conversion somewhere on their maternal tree and/or mumzer status.

    Ask any Kaballistic Rabbi.

    Also, Satmar’s are NOT NK! Satmar is not calling for the killing of innocent Jews. Satmar just is ANTI Zionist! There is a huge different.

    But once again, NK are not JEWS. There is an invalid conversion or mumzer status somewhere up the maternal line.

  • Shlomo, do you have some big book somewhere with all the names of real Jews? You seem to be a true expert and sure do keep telling us who is and who isn’t a Jew. While it’s nice to have your expertise around, I’m a little concerned because I suspect that in the end you’ll be the only person left on your list.

  • I find it funny how we get all worked up about NK, when there are about 1,000 or so Samaritan Israelites who live in Israel who need our help. Also there are about 30,000 or so Karaites worldwide. Both groups are not recognized as Jews (as far as I know) by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
    From what I’ve read of their literature, both groups are way more traditional than Conservative or Reform.
    But too bad for them, they don’t have peyos or funny hats, so they’re not kosher enough.

  • Dave, no, it’s because they don’t have Jewish mothers.

    Nothing to do with the hats.

  • I was just kidding Shlomo about the hats.
    I know you are correct halachically.
    From reading their literature, I personally consider both the Samaritans and Karaites to be way more traditionally Jewish
    than Conservative or Reform.
    I am really sorry that the Rabbinate can’t find a way to re-integrate them into the Jewish people.
    But I think it will never happen.

  • hey, you can all talk snap about NK all you want, but you’re conveniently ignoring the heart of their theology, which features a big truth: Being in charge of a country in Israel tends to make us into bad guys, as sinister and corrupt as any other government, if not more so. Can any amonst us say that it really hasn’t been truth.

    I’d say the truth of what NK represents is highlighted by the violence of how much you want to shut them up.

    And when America fails Israel, and the chickens come home to roost, it might be the virtue of NK that ensures that there are any jews still in Jerusalem at all.

    Re: kabbalists. That’s funny. Most of the ashkenazi kabbalists I ever met held much stronger that Shimon Peres, Ariel Sharon and Rabin were not really jewish souls than that NK members weren’t. Maybe we’re hanging around different kabbalists?

    But yeah, if not for Neturei Karta, it wouldn’t be safe for Chassidim to go to Iran. And Charedim will tell you, Zionists have done more to undermine Jewish leadership peace efforts in Israel than arab terrorists have… and they should know, they’ve been there for a minute longer.

  • Actually Shlomo, I’m not confused at all. One day you might figure out that saying something is not the same as proving it. I hope that day comes soon, before you’re the last Jew left in your little black book of Who is A Jew.

  • Dave wrote: From reading their literature…

    Man, don’t tell me that the Samaritans and the Karaites are one-up’ing C & R Judaism in kiruv!

    Is there a Karaite House close to my university?

    Where’s the local good Samaritan when you need one? :-p

    And if you consider dropping the Oral Law to be ‘more traditional’, then you’d be very welcome at a Reform synagogue near you. 😀

  • Dave – the only way the Rabbinate would accept Samaritans and Karaites would be if they underwent conversion and accepted Rabbinic law, Mishnah and Talmud. In other words, they’d have to give up being Samaritans and Karaites. Beta Israel had to go through the same thing. Here’s a pretty decent overview of the relationship between the Samaritans, the Rabbinate, and a comparison between the Samaritans’ situation and Beta Israel’s.


    Shlomo – no one’s arguing NK are Satmars or that Satmar condones NK. Chill out. The fact is that some NKers also claim affiliation with Satmar.

  • Shlomo, you seem like a pretentious asshole. you flood this blog with your I am more righteous than you are bullshit. There is an invalid conversion or mumzer status somewhere up the maternal line. Who the hell are you kidding?(other than yourself) I disagree with TM, in your little black book of who is a Jew, you’d be the first one crossed off, and that is the reason you act like such a prick on here.

  • Jon C,

    Why the name calling? I have never once attacked anyone on here.

    The Middle, I think you’re confused again.

  • No Shlomo, I am not confused at all. One day you might figure out that saying something is not the same as proving it. I hope that day comes soon, before you’re the last Jew left in your little black book of Who is A Jew.

  • TM, I think you’re confused again – that wasn’t at all what I was going for.

  • TM: [reasoned argument]
    Shlomo: You’re confused again.
    TM: [reasoned argument, redux]
    Shlomo: You’re confused again.
    TM: Uhhh… what’s your point?
    Shlomo: You’re confused again.
    TM: I’m not confused, why don’t you try saying something different?
    Shlomo: You’re confused again.

    Monty Python’s Flying Circus called. They want their sketch back.

    “Oh, look. This isn’t an argument. It’s merely contradiction!!

    Piss off, you bloody twit!”

  • Shlomo,

    i thought i illustrated it pretty well. you may not see it or understand it but a lot of the stuff you say on here is an attack on people who have different ideas than you. TM’s little black Jew book is a great example of this. the way you address anything on here makes you seem straight up arrogant and unsympathetic to anyone’s beliefs which aren’t in-sync with your f’ed up interpretation of things.

  • well in that case I won’t post anymore! I didn’t mean anything by it!

  • shlomo shlomo,

    easy buddy i am sorry…. i went overboard…. please accept my apology……

  • Shlomo- while we all may sometimes be too self-assured in our “knowledge,” of what constitutes Judaism, your attitude doesn’t offend me. I mean, to me there’s not that much that sets you apart from ck, Kelsey or Sieradski. Just as I don’t agree with their opinions all the time I don’t agree with your “who’s a jew” thing. But offensive I find it not.

    May I bring up my tired old analogy – what if we all walked into a bar full of and run by anti-semites… so accept Jon C.’s apology and keep nuancing!!

  • Passive aggressive anyone? Shlomo, you’re not doing us a favor by posting here. You are a guest and are welcome to come here and post, just as you are welcome to come here and simply read what others have to say. However, when you do post, especially strident and strong opinions regarding your religious superiority (not to mention repetitive and silly attempts to offend “you’re confused again”), expect to be criticized. There is a broad range of visitors here and some of us are going to reject what you say.

    Jon, feel free to write what you like, you are not responsible if Shlomo decides that he shouldn’t post here any more. Someone who feels that confident about criticizing and dismissing others shouldn’t do so without a thick skin. I promise to let you know if you’ve posted something so offensive that it’s out of line.

  • Just because I hold by Halacha doesn’t mean you all have to be playa hatin’

    Rabbi Yo I think will defend me on this.

  • Yeah, real defensive. Try this: if you say things, take responsibility and don’t hide behind somebody else who isn’t party to this argument. Going to hide behind R. Yonah is not going to help you here. For many days now, at every possible occasion you have taken the position that various groups and various people are not Jewish or not Jewish enough. Some of us who happen to be Jewish but don’t meet with your religious approval happen to disagree and don’t need to hear what the first rabbi whose robes you plan to hide behind** says because we can think for ourselves.

    You want to know the sad truth? According to your own criteria and ongoing remarks, you are much closer to these Neturei Karta than to me. You cannot accept this so you fall back on some hope that somewhere along the line, there was perhaps an intermarriage with a female convert who was improperly converted. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? Even if this is the case – and chances are you’re wrong – you still have to live with the fact that they live according to (their understanding of) halacha and the Torah, just as you do, and in virtually every other way that you expect from a Jew who passes your test for a good Jew. These are observant Jews. They just happen to be rabidly anti-Zionist to the point where they are willing to partner with murderers and potential murderers of Jews to achieve their objective of destroying Israel. Why do they do this? Because they are convinced that if they do this, the Messiah will arrive post-haste.

    In fact, I find them alien, but are they alien to you?

    **With all due respect to R. Yonah, of course, who is undeniably a mensch, a humble man and a wise man. I consider myself fortunate to have met the rabbi and his wife and have the greatest respect and admiration for the manner in which they live their lives and do their utmost to share with others their love for Judaism.

  • Of course the NK are Alien to me!!! They deserve what comes to them!

    Why on earth would you think I approve them?

  • Wow. Nice discussion. So please alllow me to review in the interests of setting the record straight.

    1. Neturei Karta are not Holocaust deniers. They are virulently anti-Zionist and anti-Israel.

    2. They are by any reasonable standard, Jews.

    3. They represent a tiny, tiny speck of a minority amongst Hassidic Jews.

    4. They are entitled to their opinions, retarded as they may be.

    5. They do not merit the attention they get.


  • Esther says… well, look at Esther’s piece about them. Esther cannot be wrong.

    Money makes the mare go.

    They do not “represent”, ck, they just exist. There seem to be about ten or maybe fifteen of them, total, all told, every last one.

    How in the world would you know their ancestry? They are hairy white guys.

    They are photographed kissing the world’s most well-known holocaust denier, ck. That makes you a holocaust denier. You are whom you buss, especially now.

  • If only someone could discreetly follow them around on a Saturday.

    A non-Jew could come along with a camera.

    It might be interesting to record what they do on a Saturday. I have some thoughts about what they are willing to do on a Saturday.

  • Well ck, you may be right but that doesn’t make my vomiting stop…

    But they do merit attention for Jewish bloggers, kvetchers, coffee klatchers, minyan discussions, etc..They may be a speck but a speck may represent a bigger issue. Just as David Duke is a marginalized idiot, his presence at the so-called conference merits enough attention to get Wolf Blitzer all riled up. And the Wolf he did howl…

  • And finally theyve been EXCOMMUNICATED by The Chief Rabbi of Israel and many leading Rabbis!


  • as if any religious person ever respected the office of “cheif rabbi of Israel”

    That’s another crime that Charedim in general resent the State for: making the rabbanut into a governement office, for the sake of maintaining control over the religion and the religious. fuck that noise.

  • Thanks TM, and please do tell me when I am out of line. I have little self control.

    Ruth, i don’t know what chief of rubber Pissrael means, but i don’t think i like it.

    Shlomo, you are a gem. i real piece of work.

  • Ramon,

    that is funny and very wierd that you sent that link. I just sent the same link to my buddy last night telling him not to drink anymore soy lattes.

  • TM, by the way Rabbi Yo’s no response to my statement above is in agreement. If you start studying the Talmud you’ll see “Silence is acceptance”

  • Yosef Crack,

    You have correctly dubed yourself Yosef Crack for you are certainly on crack.

    While there is some truth to your argument, you have to understand that the very foundation of Torah and Judaism is keeping the LAW and the establishment of a HOLY Kingdom (ie. State) that upholds and pormotes that LAW. While Israel is currently not at that level, it does not make it illegitimate . If anything the rabbinate is a PARTY that can accomplish that goal and or help to maintain current Jewish practices until that moment arrives. As all knowledgable sages have agreed that the state of Israel today IS the predecessor to the future Kingdom of Israel that will then BE A LIGHT UNTO THE NATIONS. But until then, we have to protect ourselves from enemies who really shamelessly don’t want to end this conflict (just like their predecessors didn’t want it to do the same at the times of David and other Israeli leaders).

  • Shlomo,

    You have no evidence for your claim. Evidence is key and you must present it.

    Any “rabbi” can say anything he wants.. reality, logic and evidence are KEY

  • Dave,

    It is true that the Samartians and the Karites are more observent than the Reform and or conservative movement. Theoretically, since they all dispute Rabbinic tradition in some way, I guess there is no difference between Karites, Samartians, Reform, Conservative and etc. Judaism. They are all NON Rabbinic.

    When the Karite movement was nascent, its members were also considered Jews and the connection between the masses was good. But as time went by THEY (the Karites) moved further away and the Rabbinc class simply destroyed them via great polemical works (great stuff for anyone who is interested in their disputes). This is so much so that the Karaites do NOT celebrate Chanukah !! Imagine a Jew who actually claims its forbidden to celebrate Chanukah !!!

    Basically, it is not the Rabbinic class that rejecteded/rejects them. It is they who don’t want to rejoin the family. If they do, then I am sure open arms will be extended to have them BACK.

  • While we are the subject of Karites and Samartians vs. Reform (lets just leave the conservatives out of this)

    Think about how the Reform movement would have been thought of if it would have started when the Karite movement started (7th CE).. At the least the Karites believe in the divine origin of Torah … If i am not mistaking the Reform don’t even accept that the Torah is totally Divine and unchangable !!

    Yikes.. logically the Reform movement makes no sense at all (at least the Karite argument is more rational and logical) but the Reform argument is just insane.. if the Torah is not Divine (they why bother being a Jew) its much easier being something else or just another joe shmo ?

  • Jon C. – what’s weird is that since we’re more or less neighbors that we’ve both been exposed to the same link. Is this only a problem with midwestern soybeans? 🙂

  • Ramon – i was gonna say the same thing about our midwestern links. i wonder if its a problem with the soybeans or the person milking the soy…..

  • Jewnomics, I agree with you completely about the Karaites. I have read some of their literature and they do believe in the divine origin of the Torah.
    My impression is that the quarrel between the Karaites and the Rabbinic Jews in the 10th century C.E. was a lot more to do with power struggles between Saadiah Gaon and his Karaite opposition than basic Jewish theology.
    As someone who is uncomfortable with the current direction of the Conservative movement and not observant enough to be Orthodox, I am really sorry that the Karaites are not as powerful as Conservative and Reform are. They are way more traditional than Conservative.

  • Why is the black hat guy not considered a Jew? Please, no bullshit nor long explanations. Tell me in five sentences or less.