Anybody else finding the last few weeks a little surreal?
I have no idea whether there are many Jews in Puerto Rico, but I think Florida Jewish Democrats should be genuinely angry at having their votes discounted. At this point, Hillary has performed quite well opposite Obama in the last several primaries and has shown particular strength in the big states that will be heavily contested in November. Obama is thrusting his chest in victory among the Democrats, but are his constituents representative of mainstream voters in America? I don’t think so, which is why Hillary keeps winning in these big “must win” states.
I hope not, but we may be about to watch a Democratic repeat of 2004. Expect to see lots of Jeremiah Wright commercials starting in the fall.
Ephraim, I can answer that. Both pronunciations are permissable according to Longman’s Pronunciation Dictionary. Since the Celts themselves had no written communication known at this point, the written accounts of their existence were Latin, in which they were called “Celtae”. Now, in Ancient, classical Latin, “c” pronounces like /k/, no matter what vowel follows. So we can assume this to be the way Celts referred to themselves. In later version of Latin, e.g. the version popular among Renaissance through 18th century Humanists, “c” was pronounced like a voiceless /s/ if it preceded a “back vowel” (= i & e; the vowel sounds produced at the back of the mouth) though. Analgously, “c” in Italian prounces like /k/ preceding front vowels (a, o, u) and like /ch/ preceding back vowels. (Italian inserts an “h” after the “c” to produce a /k/ preceding back vowels. Similarly, while English pronunciation seemingly is irregular, there are certain pronunciation rules, e.g. that “c” preceding a back vowel is pronounced like a voiceless /s/ (e.g. /citric/). So there’s a gap between the Roman loanword “Celtae”, which in its original version reflects he actual pronunciation, and (the very few regular) English rules of pronunciation based on spelling. As the case is, therefore both pronunciations are considered correct.
“Celtic” is the adjective of “Celt”; it needs to be capitalized, because it refers to an ethnicity (e.g. as in “Celtic Glasgow”). English lets one use adjectives without a noun though and the ommitted noun will still be “understood”, so to speak.
I was kind of hoping we have a players strike or something so neither of them win. 🙁
Oh, yeah:
Why is it the “Seltics” instead of the “Keltics” like it should be?
Come to think of it, shouldn’t it just be the “Celts”?
As long as they beat LA, I don’t care who the other team is or what the sport is.
LA delenda est.
Thought you guys had my Celtics for a while there.
Yeah, don’t know what happened to what was supposed to be the best team in baseball this year. Lucky for me, I’m not a huge baseball fan. The Wings are actually helping me take my mind off of the pathetic Eastern Conference performance by the Pistons. At least one of our teams went all the way! Being a Typical White Person myself, I like hockey!
Sorry Alex, I meant Verlander. I always confuse those guys.
Glad the Wings can take your mind off Jeremy Bonderman for a while, Alex. What the hell is up with him?
Can Bobby Jindal soothe Typical White Person guilt about the British Raj?
Haha. May I just add: Detroit Red Wings…. F*** Yeah!
Haven’t heard that story, Ephraim. I must not have that much guilt.
Apropos of the original direction of the thread, I thought this quote from Charlie Rangel was funny:
“We pledged to support her to the end,†said Representative Charles W. Rangel, a New York Democrat who has been a patron of Mrs. Clinton since she first ran for the Senate. “Our problem is not being able to determine when the hell the end is.â€
Have you heard the theory that Obama should pick Colin Powell as his running mate? This will cover him on the national security issue and make white people twice as racist if they don’t vote for him!
How much you wanna bet that McCain is on the horn to Powell right now?
That would throw a wrench into the racial dynamic. In the gated communities across America where they all live, Typical White People will be asking each other:
“Who should we vote for, Buffy dear? The House Negro or the Authentic Chicago Community Organizer?”
“You mean the Uncle Tom or the Closet Angry Black Man?”
“Well, yes, I suppose you could put it like that.”
“You know, dear, it would have been better if they could just have consolidated on an All Negro Ticket. That would make things sooooo much easier. And the Liberal White Guilt Expiation factor would have benn increased exponentially!”
Hillary’s speech was simply a straightforward show of support for Israel.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=7899
This was The Lobby at its perfidious worst– slipping something into Barack’s food and inducing amnesia about his Senate vote.
Indeed…
“Obama’s Speech at AIPAC: A New Concession to the Zionist Lobby?”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/4/11337/05231/562/529289
“Three Candidates Falling Over Each Other To Kiss AIPAC’s Ass:”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/3/132824/1934/625/528209
Such open-minded agents of change and hope.
Humor and debate are both nice, Alex. But when you make a joke of yourself in a debate, then it’s time to quite mixing metaphors and admit that you’re not funny or being taken seriously.
Any more names you want to call me? You haven’t the slightest clue how to characterize my politics. I actually don’t hold to much in the way of the sort of mentally rigid ideas that cage up your understanding of life. People who don’t live in their parents’ basements (mentally or otherwise) have experiences in life, you know? – and it leads them to learn from the events that unfold during the course of their lives and make decisions pragmatically, rather than according to some radio airwave jockey’s cartoon version of life. It leads them to… well, I’ll put it to you this way: I think you need a girlfriend.
Vulgar has many definitions. See ancient Rome for details. And how the political “liberals” who I think you’re referring to in modern America came to be the ones who are touchy about today’s definition of it is anyone’s guess. But you do tend to be short on explanations.
One last thing – since I don’t owe you anything and your ego seems to be needy enough to find more pleasure in this exchange than would most people would – but I happen to know a few things about Detroit. Yes, the city’s politicians are generally Democrats – as is the governor who’s trying to do the best job she can in the wake of Farmer John. That’s what happens in big cities, where many people live and politicians run on issues that address social policy from a manner that’s less removed from how it affects your average Joe. But you may be aware of something called the automotive industry – without which there wouldn’t be a Detroit today – and because of which Detroit now remains home to brownfields, empty space, deer, abandoned buildings, and… YOU! And the reason for that is because Detroit decided long ago that they were going to be beholden to economic nationalism. Now I don’t know if that’s “conservative” or “liberal” to your ears, but a once glorious, envy of the world industry that made a decision over 4 decades ago to coast on their fumes started making junk. But American politicians focused on buying American – so that we could employ Americans. When the industry finally realized the consequences of what they’d done, Toyota and Honda were on the rise, and Detroit no longer understood how to be competitive in a global economy or, in other words, how to make products that anyone but an American would buy.
Much like the City of Detroit and its automotive industry, no one’s buying what you’re saying anymore. So maybe it fits you perfectly to live there. And if you just post for your own amusement, do yourself a favor – copy the comments you write, save them (or send them to yourself, it really doesn’t matter which) – open them and laugh at your own masturbatory exercise in self-amusement. Because having no pride in whether or not people care what you have to say, or whether you have any impact on them, makes your solo activity a bit less like Bill Clinton’s activities than you’d like to dream them to be. Or do us a favor and just remove whatever metaphorical penis you keep waving at me altogether. No one sucks it as good as you do.
Yeah, I heard, Tom.
The guy’s a schizo, though. I just don’t believe anything he says.
But, hey, maybe sucking up to the Jews will lose him the election. I’m pretty sure the Kos Kidz must be frothing at the mount over the betrayal.
I have to start writing “make-up” instead of “makeup”. I quit wearing makeup after high school.
MUL,
He didn’t become known as The Clenis or Bill Clitin for nothing. The guy’s got skills! You can thank the feminist movement for turning men into metrosexuals. And now they want to know why men cheat, why many career women never fall in love, and where the boorish men went. Well, they’re drinking lattes, cooking flambes, and letting their wives defend them in public. I shudder at the thought of marrying a politician in general, but my wife fighting for power, well that’s going to be lots of fun. Michelle Obama must be really hard to please if it takes a nomination for her husband to make her proud of her own country for the first time. I’d hate to see what it takes in the sack.
Look, if I wanted serious debate, I’d go to law school and aim for the judiciary. This isn’t the venue for that. This is a fun place to mix jokes and politics and I will keep it at that. I’m a Jew after all, humor and debate are part of my genetic makeup.
“But Detroit is obviously too small a place for a man of your imagination and cultural fixations.”
Thanks. I feel the same way. That’s why I travel frequently.
Vulgar? You liberals sure are easy to offend. Funny, since the Democrat primaries brought out the most sexism and racism I’ve ever seen in politics. Today they’re saying that stating the obvious, such as that Obama is Castro’s favorite is somehow racist. What an upside down world we live in. I wonder if you used the term vulgar about what many of Obama’s supporters have said? Then you shouldn’t be surprised how vulgar it can get.
By the way, Detroit is a fine city, run primarily by liberals, Democrats, and minorities who believe in BLT, and look how great it turned out! Did I mention we have some of the most productive unions here too? I bet you guessed that by now.
And what’s with all this stuff on Obama’s wife – particularly the snide comment regarding his relationship with her? I think it’s nice that he actually loves his wife. It’s better than being repelled by her like Clinton is, and his inability to keep his “short and curlies” in his pants around any other woman with whom he gets the chance to suddenly “relieve” whatever pent-up frustrations she must somehow give him.
I say this as a matter of taste, not as a matter of character in the candidates that would necessarily impact their approaches in a more serious manner to the office. But as with other things, I think Alex is blurring the line between matters of taste and matters of politics to a greater degree than I would when it comes to these sorts of things.
What I’m defending is accuracy, Alex, which is exactly what you avoid in trying to make a little story out of everything – as you do above. There are so many references to irrelevent American cultural icons in comment #115 that I’m not sure if you’re trying to create a comic book storyboard for importation to other countries eager to learn about the American experience in its most vulgar terms or trying out for the job of creative consultant for a Hollywood or NYC production studio. But Detroit is obviously too small a place for a man of your imagination and cultural fixations.
MUL, please stop assuming so much. Why would you think I like or listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Rielly? I don’t like nor agree with even half of their opinions and I certainly don’t waste my time with political talking heads of any stripe in the MSM. Since you got that so terribly wrong, aren’t you wondering how much of the rest of your hypothesis you have incorrect? Calm down a bit, reduce that blood pressure, choose a topic and stick to it without delving into what you perceive to be my psychological makeup.
As far as I see it, your boy, Barrack (that’s whom you are here defending day in and day out right?), has no experience nor any accomplishments to stand on, so he relies on using popularity, catch phrases, and devil’s advocacy for the entirety of his platform.
It’s really sad that at the end of the day, the “cool” candidate is really such a dork, he can’t dance, can’t bowl, the whiteness comes out while playing basketball, he can’t handle the pressure, sounds like a newscaster, has big ears, pals around with haters, anti-semites, and terrorist-chic-activists, and has a wife who’s got him by the short and curlies. If you want to me to vote for a guy simply because of his color, you’re going to have to field someone a bit more, how you say, “hard”. If we’re going on identity politics, popularity, change, and hope alone, I’d rather have 50 Cent or Denzel in there. This guy is a first class chump and a sell-out to boot. Look how he used his “new politics” to force out Alice Palmer. Face it, if he weren’t running for president, he’d be at Trinity church listening to hate filled rants this sunday, followed by a tea party at Bernadine Dorn and William Ayers’s apartment. “Obama – The Candidate of Convenience”
That last one was for Tom. I’ll have to go over the AIPAC remarks in greater detail later today. But the comment’s in reference to it.
Apparently Obama’s left to right swerve trumped Hillary’s anticipated right to wherever she would have gone next swerve.
Isn’t that the way it’s usually done? Appealing to the base before the middle? I wonder what would have happened had Hillary tried to do that? Obviously it could be a moot point because they were both boxed in by the circumstance of either being in the Senate to cast a pressured vote for a later unpopular war versus being outside to voice opposition. But to the extent that these circumstances were contingent upon fate, we still have to respect that that’s where they led.
In any event, Hillary always had the option to voice regret over the vote and excoriate what she could have called the administration’s duplicity in convincing her and her colleagues to approve of it. But she chose not to. It’s amazing to me the degree to which she underestimated the capacity of the American people for forgiveness – instead choosing to arouse resentment at every turn. And this was the wife of the man who had massive approval ratings following the Lewinsky scandal!
Like many of her decisions, that one made no sense to me. And undoubtedly to millions of other Democratic primary voters.
Banner day for Ephraim: Barack’s AIPAC appearance puts to rest all of the concerns Ephraim had about him.
Did a key stick on the function?
😉
Who said I oppose the Iraq War? How is an understanding of history both wishful thinking and 20/20 hindsight? (The juxtaposition is itself an absurdity). When does incorporating new evidence into our understanding of history (i.e. “revisionism”, it’s something serious scholars do all the time) become “bad” by definition?
What you enjoy seeing is a way to set up a simplistic us/them mindset on every issue and then seeing how everyone either falls in line with it or becomes your enemy. I made no stance on anything, simply recited facts, and apparently that became your platform for trotting out bigotted and other sorts of stereotypes as a litmus test – as well as an excuse for not digesting those facts. You didn’t rebut a single one of them – nor can you, you just made a juvenile social statement, as if that sentiment should obviate facts.
Why not just declare your opposition to inconvenient facts? It would make your agenda of never accounting for the costs involved in anything you want a whole lot easier. Not that such an approach is doing much for your political team. Just because you’re becoming newly initiated into the wedge issue politics of false dichotomies doesn’t mean that others don’t see your amateurish neophyte, immigrant’s son cheerleading for what it is: a rush to force a choosing of sides on yourself and everyone before thinking through the consequences of what each side stands for (and there are more than two) – let alone properly identifying them – ruins your sense of excitement in doing so.
As I’ve suggested before: You’d be well off to read the Founding Fathers, (The Federalist Papers ring a bell?) before assuming that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly (and whomever else you’re listening to) hold the keys to some kind of deep wisdom that everyone else “just doesn’t get”.
MUL,
Nice 1. Arm Chair Quarterbacking, 2. Historical Revisionism, and 3. Wishful Thinking. Hindsight is 20/20 aye?
I really do enjoy seeing opponents of the Iraq war sad to see so many Iraqis killed but more than happy to throw them to the wolves and see scores more killed once we up and retreat or flee as Barrack wants it. And what then? When do we go back in to quell a genocide and civil war that breaks out? In one breath, they complain about our action in Iraq but demand it in Burma, Darfur, Bosnia, Tibet, etc…
Being Anti-War or Pro-Peace is just a nice way to feel self-righteous for ineffectual beta-males and for 40 something lesbians with identical haircuts and oval sun glasses.
On top of that, neither I nor Obama’s distractors said that the alternate option to Barrack’s pointless negotiations was starting another war, so I challenge Joshua to show me where I or anyone else said that.
The alternative to what Obama wants to do, is not to meet with Iran without “pre-conditions” (Stated on his website and at the Dem debates) or “preparations” (now that he has been called on this idiotism, this is what he calls it – new type of politics there!) but to meet with them conditionally, as our state department has been trying to do. Just when the toothless IEAE is applying pressure on Iran, along with the EU, Barrack is about to go over Pelosi style and hand them credibility and leverage. That’s not just wreckless, but incredibly stupid and counter productive. The only reason Barrack made a dumb platform point like this is to sucker naive, ignorant, and anti-war voters into thinking he’s trying something new. He isn’t.
At some point we, or Israel most likely, will be forced to drop some MOABs on the nuclear plants and possibly on the leadership and we won’t need some weak-kneed, inexperienced, empty suit worrying about what the world thinks of us.
Kari, our record when it comes to wars as a resolution is not all that great. We love referring to WWII, where overwhelming force on an unprecedented global scale brought a clear resolution to the Axis powers, but at the expense of a 40-year long cold war stand-off between the two most powerful nuclear states left standing in the wake of it. And that’s perhaps the most positive example. Anyone who’s familiar with the culture of the American South would be hard-pressed to make a case for how the Civil War, which also involved an unprecedented loss of life for the time, had clarified every issue between the two sides. And every other major example, where U.S. victory was either even less resolute or never occurred (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq) left a barrage of major unresolved issues which consume the international agenda to this day. And of course, we can’t forget the lack of resolution brought about by WWI, which decimated the German economy, imposed reparations largely now thought to be quite unfair, and promoted the sort of grievance-rich political environment that was so favorable for the implementation of an agenda soon voiced by a rising Hitler.
Joshua: Starting a war does create a lot of leverage if you win. The enemy is militarily humbled and completely at your whim. The leaders at least will do (nearly) whatever you want so long as it results in them not being killed.
I’m not suggesting war is the best available solution, but your suggestion that war does not create leverage is ridiculous.
TM, this is more like the kind of reasoned discussion about Iran that can actually promote a sense of something other than apocalyptic helplessness about the situation. We are each (and all) entitled to our viewpoints, regardless of whether any one of us can convince the other of them or not. But I think you’ll agree that it does none of us anything other than a dis-service if we don’t attempt to first find agreement on basic terminology first.
As for Ahmedinejad and nukes, what I think is important to keep in mind is that the support of the Iranian people – which we generally have – it’s important not to throw it away. The problem is that they have by and large been swept up into the nuclear argument and tend to see it as an issue of national rights to the energy source of their choosing – regardless of whether this is something with which I would like to agree. It makes our castigating of Ahmedinejad (whom, as you rightly point out, WAS one of a drastically reduced slate of candidates, so much so that his claim to representation of anyone in Iran is essentially meaningless) much trickier.
So we can say, screw Iranian public opinion and deal with the likely soon-to-be-outgoing Ahmedinejad solely in terms that castigate him, or we can use less confrontational rhetoric and approaches, regardless of where we actually stand. Can we show our disapproval of him and explain our stance in ways that don’t put the Iranian people’s pride at odds with their pro-American, anti-regime sympathies? I surely think so. Do I think this administration has done it? Not exactly. Not by a long shot, actually. Can we sway the Iranian people to understand what is wrong about the way in which Ahmedinejad’s framed his country’s nuclear “debate”? I really don’t see why not. We don’t need to have that discussion with Iran in the terms in which he defines it, and if we do, we are proving ourselves somewhat beholden to him.
The other thing is that isolating Iran from the West leaves them with few diplomatic options than to engage the Arabs, competing with them for the losing game of “Who Can be More anti-Israel than anyone else”. I think the more they can be distracted from their other Middle Eastern interests, the better. They are not Arabs. They are and were a distinct and just as great nation, with their own, non-Arab interests, and if they want to be appealed to in that fashion, the way we appealed to the Chinese in order to isolate Russia from them, then that’s an angle that should be explored. Separating Iran from the Arabs is something that we know how to do from basic history and geography. Why not try to do it politically?
I’m not saying that any of these ideas represent a fool-proof, well-constructed plan for achieving America’s and Israel’s interests (and they surely do converge). What I’m saying is that a failure of creativity and imagination, combined with an obsessive, emotional appeal to constantly painting the picture in terms of a life-or-death struggle, ultimately hurts us by keeping the discussion on a level that constrains our options while making us dependent on them as if they are the only options that will ever exist. And they become just that if we are addicted to an approach which, no matter how rational and survival-oriented, become Gospel. Or the Jewish equivalent thereof.
And this touches on the domestic version of the exact same point (long since diverged from) with which the conversation started – that of the Democrats believing that they must define themselves in terms invented by the Republicans.
I don’t hate Obama. I dislike the campaign he’s run. I also like Hillary better as a candidate. Sue me.
I challenge you, Joshua, to show me where I’ve been unethical.
And Alex, you just begged an interesting question: how do you create leverage where you don’t have any? Here’s a hint: starting another war won’t do it.
TM, the only childish, unethical comments I’ve seen have been coming from you and the Obama-haters (not opponents, HATERS) on this site.
Thomas Friedman, with whom I disagree on many things but not all, wrote a good article the other day stating quite simply:
“You only negotiate when you have leverage. We have no leverage with Iran right now, so what’s there to negotiate with?”
He also pointed out that this “communication” and “negotiations” with Iran are nothing new and have been consistent US foreign policy since 79. Not just the US, but th EU, UN, and the Russians have been negotiating with Iran about their program and they’ve consistently lied, reneged, and obfuscated over and over again. They have no intention of playing along, but your New Messiah, Barrack Hussein Obama, is going to swoop in with his anti-American supporters and look out for our best interests and negotiate with no leverage? haha! If you have Faith in that Change, I have a life insurance policy to sell you.
If you want to have a mature discussion, stay away from the childish attacks. You unethical liar. Hmm, that didn’t seem like a childish attack but an adult one.
This isn’t that complicated. Goldberg asks about Israel, not the conflict. He asks if Israel is a drag on America and Obama answers that question by talking about the sore and the wound. You would like to read it differently, good for you. But that’s not what Goldberg asks and that’s not what Obama responds to. The question lists Israel and Obama responds to that. Maybe you’re right and he didn’t mean it. Then again, maybe it was a moment with a slip and Obama’s guard down. It happens. Goldberg doesn’t read it that way, but sometimes even Goldberg is wrong. He’s written stuff with which I disagree.
Either way, my reading of it is consistent with the way it is asked and answered so that your comments about my supposed lack ethics and lies are, at best, slander.
Second, let’s say you’re right and he’s talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Well, there isn’t a constant sore or constant wound for the Israelis. It’s the Arabs who express themselves this way because they’ve lost the bulk of the wars and confrontations, particularly 1948. They’re the ones who have kept the Palestinians as refugees all these decades as a reminder that the wound is open. We can conclude from your reading of this statement by Obama that he buys the idea that Israel is born in sin and the sin must be corrected. It’s the Arab side and the far Left in Israel that view things this way.
Either way, it’s a crappy answer from the perspective of a supporter of Israel. That it essentially either blames Israel or Israel’s creation and existence as the cause of so much difficulty in US foreign relations is no less of a problem from my viewpoint. And let’s not forget his conclusion regarding American pro-Israel hawks. When I hear that, I hear shades of Juan Cole and Walt & Mearsheimer. These are not friends of Israel, and they tend to take even middle of the road supporters of Israel and lump them together with others on the far right. My reading here may be wrong, but it seems to me that Obama is subscribing to this point of view as well.
As to your question about Ahmedinejad, it would have been better had you simply asked that earlier instead of going on and on about who knows what about Iran. Ahmedinejad is an important player in Iran because he represents the clerics’ views. They choose who runs for president (my mistake simply because I was thinking of other systems where there’s a president and beneath him a PM) and I believe out of 2000 applicants last elections, 6 were chosen to run with Ahmedinejad as the favored son. He won in a big way. This gave him a lot of power and influence because ultimately, even the clerics need support from the people. He works together with them, holds on tight to those responsibilities that are his but also encroaches on theirs. He does this openly. It is telling that over the past 18 months he’s been chastised a number of times by leading clerics and some of their publictations but has gone ahead with the same behavior as before. Is he the person who signs off on the go-ahead for the nuclear program? No. But he is one of the key decision-makers, in my opinion, and the mouthpiece of the clerics. If he was not such a strong supporter of their nuclear program, I have my doubts as to whether it would be developing rapidly or at all. His public posturing and the information available about the program are too much in sync to think this is just a happy coincidence with the clerics’ figurehead.
Not that complicated, huh? You may disagree, but you cannot prove your point any more than I can prove mine.
Sorry, you lost me at the “once we become clear about the reality of things and have discussions that get beyond a falsely dichotomous, Manichean, good-bad worldview”.
I don’t think Good vs. Evil is a false dichotomy. Iran is Evil, run by Evil Men. That is the reality of things. Any policy that is not dedicated to fighting this is not a policy I want to support, and any policy that seeks to “understand” Iran for any other reason than to find a way to defeat it, or at the very least de-fang it, is appeasement. We may not be perfect, but I think we win any Good vs. Evil comparison with Iran pretty much hands down.
I don’t think this fight must necessarily be military. But if our policy is not backed up by the credible threat of military action it will fail. It appears to me from his rhetoric that Obama has, before anything has happened, has decided that “There Is No Military Solution” and that we must talk to Iran. The assumption must be that he believes that Iran has some legitimate grievances against us that make them pour money into nuke development, supply missiles to Hizballah and Hamas and subvert Lebanon, etc. and that if we just give them what they want they’ll stop.
And what would that be, exactly? I’m pretty sure that Israel is the price that Iran will demand for any “concessions” they might make.
McCain has already said he’s not going to pay it. That’s why I’ll be voting for him in November.
If not I’madinnerjacket, just who is it that Obama said he would meet without preconditions? I’m pretty sure he said he was willing to meet with some Persian poobah about something.
I don’t see how opposing a terrorist state like Iran is letting them define the terms of the debate or making our foreign policy hostage to them.
MUL, you could only hurt my feelings if you were important to me.
You’ve made insulting statements re: me that you’d have a hard time interpreting as not intentionally insulting. This is a public blog, but public doesn’t equal to the permission of behaving like an ill-mannered teenager.
“If Ahme-chimp-idad isn’t the “leader†of Iran,”
He isn’t.
“why bother to meet with him at all like Obama says he would?”
Why bother indeed. He hasn’t.
“Also, just curious, MUL, but are you saying that Iran is successful because it is isolated?”
No.
“If so, may I assume that you believe they would be less successful if we engaged them as Obama says he would do?”
Not necessarily. But not because of the reason you might assume, seeing as how you got part I wrong.
“Personally, I don’t see how that would work, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts.”
I’m glad you’re curious to hear them. The point is there are many more options available to us once we become clear about the reality of things and have discussions that get beyond a falsely dichotomous, Manichean, good-bad worldview. Otherwise the discourse becomes stultifying and leads us to live up to the belief that there are never any good options.
“Iran is run by a bunch of certified, frothing-at-the-mouth Islamazoid madmen who have been at war with the US since 1979 when they took over the US embassy.”
I don’t necessarily disagree with much of this – but in answering your own question, don’t you set up a self-fulfilling prophecy? Worse, you’re perpetuating a caricature that moves away from a realistic understanding of what’s really going on in the Iranian government.
“They hate us because we’re infidels (this goes for the US and Israel both). We’re just too feckless to see it. I don’t see how “engaging†freakazoids like that will help anything.”
Hatred is one thing. And yet, a nation must be run on something more than a single emotion. I’m sure that hatred or no hatred, to let the Iranians define the terms of the debate and our interactions with them is to let foreign policy be done to us, rather than allow us to account for what it would mean for us to define our own foreign policy.
If Ahme-chimp-idad isn’t the “leader” of Iran, why bother to meet with him at all like Obama says he would?
Also, just curious, MUL, but are you saying that Iran is successful because it is isolated? If so, may I assume that you believe they would be less successful if we engaged them as Obama says he would do?
Personally, I don’t see how that would work, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Iran is run by a bunch of certified, frothing-at-the-mouth Islamazoid madmen who have been at war with the US since 1979 when they took over the US embassy. They hate us because we’re infidels (this goes for the US and Israel both). We’re just too feckless to see it. I don’t see how “engaging” freakazoids like that will help anything.
From the Ambinder post, TM, what’s obvious is that not even the Republican Jewish Coalition or The Weekly Standard go as far as you do in interpreting Obama’s remarks as referring to Israel rather than the conflict. If you want to persist in your interpretation, you’re free to do so. Just recognize that it’s an incredibly radical one. And recognize that it does nothing to further a much more fruitful debate on the role that solving the conflict would or would not play within the context of any impact on US foreign policy or world events more generally.
Hillary won’t be on the ticket. This seems to have been obvious for some time. So the issue is, assuming that the November match-up will be between Obama and McCain, there might be something to be gained by having an honest and informed debate about the two. We can use ad hominems against them, against each other, and against anyone who disagrees with any of us. Or we can debate facts. It depends on how mature a discussion people want to have.
Ephraim:
“Any Jew who votes for him should have his/her head examined.”
Tom:
“Sounds like a marriage made in hell to me.”
I concur, twice!
And after all this following remarks by a Jewish reporter on how the Arab-Israeli conflict affects US foreign policy. But you want me to believe that you know what you’re talking about after referring to Ahmedinejad as “the leader” of Iran? How did you mean that remark? Did you think he has the power of a US president or a European PM? (You later than referred to him as a “PM”, which is completely nonsensical from a political standpoint). Why not clarify what you originally meant in calling Ahmedinejad the “leader” of Iran? It will help me put into context how credible you could be in your interpretation of Obama and Goldberg’s statements. And Rahm Emanuel’s, by extension. Because you are saying things that impact ALL of them. And not just them.
Also, a press release on Goldberg’s need to defend his reputation from a member of the House of Representatives.
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/the_honorable_mr_boehner_1.php
In the text it links to Andrew Sullivan, who references Mark Ambinder’s clarification of Obama’s remarks, and calls out the House Republicans for their spin – which you seem to buy:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/once_again_senator_obama_demon.php
Ultimately, Ambinder has to refer to Rahm Emanuel’s defense against Boehner’s attack. This is what he says:
“On the eve of Israel’s 60th anniversary, Congressman Boehner should remember that Israel enjoys bipartisan support and commitment to its security. Nothing could be worse for Israel at this time than for it to become a proxy for Congressman Boehner’s political games. Senator Obama’s record is clear when it comes to Israel’s security and friendship with the United States.”
If you honestly belief Obama refers to Israel and not the conflict, then make your case. But you’re not only contributing to the defamation of a journalist’s credentials, but basically playing the part of a Republican attack which has hijacked issues related to Israel for their own gain. They don’t have a lot of allies in this. Especially among those who are actually referring to the primary source. Do you want to make the case against Rahm Emanuel too? How many people do you have to shoot down in this raging quest to interpret something in a completely nonsensical way?
Here is your starting point. You might not care about me, you might not care about you. We’re just pseudonyms in cyberspace. But what you’re screaming bears directly on Goldberg’s credibility. Here is what he has to say about that in his interview w/McCain. Of course, I don’t expect you to have a rational interpretation of it:
JG: Senator Obama told me that the Arab-Israeli dispute is a “constant sore†that infects our foreign policy. Do you think this is true, and do you think that the Arab-Israeli dispute is central to our challenges in the Middle East?
JM: Well, I certainly would not describe it the way Senator Obama did –
JG: He wasn’t referring to Israel as an “open sore,†he was referring to the conflict.
JM: I don’t think the conflict is a sore. I think it’s a national security challenge. I think it’s important to achieve peace in the Middle East on a broad variety of fronts and I think that if the Israeli-Palestinian issue were decided tomorrow, we would still face the enormous threat of radical Islamic extremism.
I think it’s very vital, don’t get me wrong. That’s why I’ve spent so much time there. The first time I visited Israel was thirty years ago, with Scoop Jackson and other senators, when I was in the Navy. I visited Yad Vashem (Israel’s Holocaust memorial) with Joe Lieberman the last time I was in Israel. So my absolute commitment is to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. But the dangers that we face in the Middle East are incredibly severe, in the form of radical Islamic extremists.
Goldberg corrects McCain on his misinterpretation of the state in place of the conflict. He then goes on to not contest that point but rather the corrected point. The discussion is about the conflict at this point. McCain accepts that. It’s bizarre that you can’t unless, you feel let down by not being able to swallow McCain’s quote as a new position statement or talking point.
Tom, Ahmedinejad will continue to be an astonishing success in the Arab world for as long as we give Iran the message that the Western political world has nothing to gain by them. And it could continue for longer, but at least it’s assured for as long as they are isolated.
Again, I’m not arguing for any one action as an end-all, be-all policy. I’m arguing for people to be a little more respectful of the facts. As well as the facts of what they don’t know. Thankfully Tom, you always seem to understand the importance of these vital caveats.
Why did it go to the “junk filter”?
Thanks for releasing it anyway.
I did save it, and there was one more thing I wished to say:
“I have not said one thing for the mere purpose of hurting your feelings, regret if that’s how you felt and have no problem abstaining from commenting on anything you write (that isn’t directed at me) if that would make you feel better. I just thought this was a public blog, not Facebook/Myspace, etc. I don’t have a problem not commenting if anyone here is afraid that it will hurt their feelings. It’s not my blog and I claim no right to do so, if that’s the case. Just be honest if those are the rules so I can know.”
Anyways, I’m sure someone will impute some malign motive to my saying that, but all I can do is say what I mean. As I’ve said a dozen times, words actually do mean things. Not always the things people want to find in them, but they mean things. And interpreting context isn’t perfect, but can be achieved, and always requires good faith efforts.
If I’m an unethical liar, assuming that you have ethics, you shouldn’t put any substance behind what I say. But you’re defaming Goldberg. Go tell him that Obama was referring to Israel’s existence rather than the lack of resolution to its conflict. You unethical liar.
Here is what you said:
“The issue that “infects all of our foreign policy†is Israel’s victory over the Palestinians in 1948 and everything that follows.”
Where does he say that?
“This is basic stuff.”
To people who make things up
“He’s clearly speaking about Israel’s victory and its lingering effects.”
No. He’s talking about the conflict generally.
“The question is: “Do you think that Israel is a drag on America’s reputation overseas?†It isn’t “Do you think the Israel-Arab conflict or the Israel-Palestinian conflict or any prevarication that MUL can come up with is a drag on America’s reputation overseas.â€
“He says ISRAEL.”
Where?
I just released one of your posts from the junk filter because it was near the top. There were 2000 spam posts in there, though, so if I erased others, I’m sorry. Just save your posts before submitting them just in case the filter picks you up again.
Ok. It worked.
Here goes:
“Would you like to discuss what the figurehead PM controls in Iran and whether his pronouncements have the blessing of the clerics in power?”
Sure. I’d also be willing to go into disussing why his support by the clerics in power doesn’t mean he has anywhere near the kind of power they do.
“Your suggestion that Obama would meet with an Iranian PM because people are confused is laughable.”
Ok. So laugh at it. It’s also not what I’m saying.
“So is dismissing the importance of the PM in Iran, particularly one that was popularly elected. But best of all is that from a logical standpoint, if he’s solely the figurehead then he’s clearly voicing the clerics’ intentions.”
First of all, he’s not a PM.
Second, if he’s voicing the clerics’ intentions, it doesn’t mean he is the cleric or that meeting with him equates to meeting with the clerics. It’s the clerics who negotiate, so this is a moot point.
“Either way, PM with clout or figurehead without, his public position carries great weight and importance in Iran and outside of it.”
To some degree. But people who don’t understand the Iranian political system make a mockery out of the idea that they’re engaging in a coherent discussion when they pronounce on the idea of meeting with Iranian officials in light of his remarks. And they also use this unquantifiable standard of “great weight”. Certain people are empowered to make certain kinds of decisions and others aren’t. Just because the discussion is muddled by not denoting the distinction, doesn’t mean that such a distinction doesn’t exist. It also doesn’t mean that disregarding that distinction is a substitute for saying that Ahmedinejad’s words are a priori a proxy for the decisions of the clergy absent a meeting with them, or a proxy for the decisions that would come out of a meeting with the clergy when one hasn’t even occurred.
“At least Obama knows this, even if you, his ardent supporter, don’t.”
This just sounds like a rhetorical flourish that I’ll disregard because I can’t tell what the substance of it entails.
Whoa, I missed number 74.
MUL, you’re a piece of work.
Here is the quote again:
I wrote:
You referred to this as:
Why?
Because:
Huh? The issue that “infects all of our foreign policy” is Israel’s victory over the Palestinians in 1948 and everything that follows. This is basic stuff. He’s clearly speaking about Israel’s victory and its lingering effects. The question is: “Do you think that Israel is a drag on America’s reputation overseas?” It isn’t “Do you think the Israel-Arab conflict or the Israel-Palestinian conflict or any prevarication that MUL can come up with is a drag on America’s reputation overseas.” He says ISRAEL.
Obama responds:
So it’s not a drag on America’s reputation internationally, no, no, no, it’s just, you know, a constant sore that infects all of America’s foreign policy.
So do me a favor and cut out the bullshit about Goldberg’s blog, the supposed back and forth or anything of the sort. This was a straightforward question and a very unstraightforward answer where Obama first says that it’s not a drag and then tells us it’s just a constant infected wound over all of our foreign policy.
Stop dancing around the truth that’s staring you right in the face. You unethical liar.
It seems your site has been giving me problems posting replies. I’ll set this up as a test response, and if it works, I’ll let you know what I have to say about Ahmedinejad’s limitations, support or no support, as well as some other things – including a reply to Froylein, if that’s ok.
Michelle tape rumor update: it’s out tomorrow. Or so rumor has it.
News Flash!
Hillary’s decided she wants a spot on the ticket.
Sounds like a marriage made in hell to me.
MUL, I’m no expert on Iran. My understanding, however, is that despite his mishandling of the economy and widespread domestic unpopularity, Ahmadinejad has the support of the Supreme Leader in his pursuit of nukes. In many ways, the president has been a striking success abroad. He’s vastly expanded Iranian influence and leverage in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and with the Palestinians. There’s every reason to think him a formidable adversary, despite the inflation rate in Tehran. Compare him with his despised and feckless predecessor.
You;re right, there are more votes in excoriating Bush. All the more reason, then, to parse things like the Goldberg interview carefully. At the barest minimum, we can say Barack has a very different approach to the projection of American power than Bush and McCain. It’s no coincidence he’d sooner meet with Ahmadinejad than with David Petraeus.
Ephraim, if the tape exists and McCain controls access to it, we ain’t seeing it until well after we all get back from summer vacation.
No MUL, I think Obama supporters should consider carefully whether the people with whom they’re debating really are ethically challenged ignorant idiots or just people with whom they have some disagreements. This is how one alienates a core group of constituents.
Would you like to discuss what the figurehead PM controls in Iran and whether his pronouncements have the blessing of the clerics in power? Your suggestion that Obama would meet with an Iranian PM because people are confused is laughable. So is dismissing the importance of the PM in Iran, particularly one that was popularly elected. But best of all is that from a logical standpoint, if he’s solely the figurehead then he’s clearly voicing the clerics’ intentions. Either way, PM with clout or figurehead without, his public position carries great weight and importance in Iran and outside of it. At least Obama knows this, even if you, his ardent supporter, don’t.
That’s fine, Froylein. Have an emotional reaction to my pointing out that something is common knowledge. Few people consider it arrogant to point out what encyclopedias make widely known. And The Supreme Leader is not anonymous. His name is Ali Khamenei.
Here is his picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Grand_Ayatollah_Ali_Khamenei%2C.jpg
Here is a diagram of the Iranian government.
And common knowledge does not equate into “what every man on the street knows”.
I considered the “gynophobia” comment directed at me, as Hillary supporters often do that. I gave you ample opportunity to clarify your remark. You did not do it in any way that made sense as anything other than an attack against me. And you’re reading into “crude remarks regarding… mental capacities” something that I not only didn’t state, but told you I felt bad if that’s the way you took them. Instead, you became more strident rather than accomodating of an apologetic tone.
This is written communication. It is open to more interpretation that verbal communication because it lacks the same amount of context. And that can be both a good and a bad thing. But only good if people don’t assume too much, which I am always open to re-considering as something that I may be doing, even if others are not. Are you? Can you honestly say that you’ve been generous with your responses?
In short, I get the feeling that you are more upset about what information transpired and who conveyed it more clearly and convincingly, rather than upset about any actual behavior – intended or not. In which case you are being disingenuous and not speaking in good faith, whatever you project onto my quite happy, quite fulfilling (thank you very much) life.
Also, I think that as an Obama supporter you should expend as much effort as possible attacking Hillary supporters and other people who would vote Democrat by calling them liars, unethical and “echo chamber†participants who suffer from “groupthink.â€
Middle, this really says a lot. Do you really think it’s more important to vote for people who will say nice things to you than to vote for someone who you think is more honest about their agenda?
In what paranoid, conspiracy-theory world has Iran not been run by Ahmadinedjad but by some anonymous “Supreme Leader”? How many Iranian Arabs and Persians do you actually know?
MUL, as long as you keep this nasty “I’m so smart, but you’re too dumb to notice” dialectics up while grossly misunderstanding – on purpose? – written text that I could definitely expect an average native speaker of English to understand, accusing me of racism (in a previous thread) or gynophobia (this thread) at that, in addition to a few rather rude remarks regarding my mental capabilities, I will not consider you a person worth wasting my time on.
Initially, I used to think you were a sad, lonely person when you once plastered discourse experience gained in thousands of online (!) discussions on the walls framing that respective “conversation”.
Beati pauperes spiritu…
I’m not upset at all. And that’s, in part (not all, but in large measure) because what you say makes no sense at all. This is what you said:
And let’s not forget the quote provided to us by Tom the other day from the Goldberg Atlantic interview where Obama likens Israel to a festering wound for the Arabs.
Which I found to be unlikely anything other than intellectually dishonest at best. Goldberg went through a lot of detail explaining the difference between the state of Israel and the conflict between the state of Israel and the Palestinians. He even did it again in his subsequent interview with McCain. If you are confused to the distinction between the two, then that’s too bad. But it’s not my problem. If you were really interested in knowing the context of the quote, rather than the context that your worldview ascribes to such quotes, you’d have looked into the discussion surrounding it. The constant back-and-forth between Goldberg’s blog and his detractors. And regardless of whether you’d done that, if you merely find that distinguishing between the two makes your worldview less given to bloviating, then that’s flat out intellectually dishonest at best, unethical lying at worst. And if it’s the case, I find it frankly pathetic that you have to resort to this Orwellian “words don’t have the meaning they are ascribed in dictionaries” attitude just to make your point. And even worse, it ultimately hurts your “cause” worse than any motive you think I must have in merely pointing this out. The awful fact that words and concepts actually have meaning. Darn.
MUL,
Middle, are you sure you’re ok with me parsing the sentences for which you keep finding different versions for your re-interpretation, in my spare time?
Do whatever you like. You called me a liar and unethical and I’ve just made sure the record is set straight. I realize you are upset at the cutting and pasting of your words, my words and the interview in question but I thought you’d enjoy seeing the evidence first-hand.
Also, I think that as an Obama supporter you should expend as much effort as possible attacking Hillary supporters and other people who would vote Democrat by calling them liars, unethical and “echo chamber” participants who suffer from “groupthink.”
The point is, Tom, it might very well be a knee-jerk anti-Bushism that gets him a heck of a lot more votes than Hillary’s many knee-jerk pro-Bushisms ever did or ever would get her. And since he’s not in office yet, and just appealing to the 80% of the electorate that’s either persuadable over re-considering the Bush administration’s approach to things and/or disenchanted with America’s popularity, it’s smart to do. There are no downsides to running on it other than the fact that it messes with the heads of people who never put much thought into their politics. That’s a good thing.
In what Bizarro world is Ahmadinejad’s role (and lack of political power) not self-evident? He’s a figurehead. I was not under the impression that any serious person (or any authoritative source) had put this up for dispute. If you are disputing what I take to be a common knowledge assertion regarding Ahmadinejad’s political limitations, please don’t speak in the vagaries of things such as “implicit comparisons” and actually let me know.
As for no point in meeting up, see above (first paragraph reply to Tom). Also see 1) The degree of confusion exhibited in this thread over the structure of the organs of government in Iran, and 2) the fact that more serious “authorities” understand the distinction in stances between Obama and the others to be meaningless regarding the distinction you point out. Actual meetings or negotiations would be taking place, as I understand it, with the Supreme Leader. That does not detract from the shortcomings I point out in the minds of people who confuse Ahmedinejad’s utterings with official Iranian policy and decide not to meet with whoever’s in charge and pulling the strings in that country based on what a politically impotent puppet happens to say on an otherwise boring day. And for shits and giggles, see the undisputed reports on negotiations which the Bush administration already conducts with Iran at lower levels of diplomacy. That’s usually in reference to Iraq, though, so apparently no one gets all crazy about it.
Funny how Persian Monkey Boy and his amen corner don’t seem to particularly care about all of the millions of Arabs and Muslims who would be incinerated along with all of the Jews were he to actually drop a nuke on Israel, G-d forbid. Gotta love those Muslim humanists.
Anybody have any more info on the supposed Michelle Obama “whitey” tape? I’m beginning to think it might not actually exist.
Obama has surrounded himself with racists (Wright and Pfleger) unrepentant anti-American terrorists (Dorn and Ayers) and anti-Israel ideologues (Powers and Zbig). He’s throwing them under the bus as fast as he can, but anyone with even an ounce of sense has to see it for the crass (and desperate) political opportunism that it is. Any Jew who votes for him should have his/her head examined.
Muffti could have told you that, Tom.
Partly because no one wants to see Kim use ’em, Joshua, esp. no one in the region.
If Iran gets them, the region will stand and applaud (while cowering in fear), and fantasize one gets dropped on Tel Aviv.
IIRC, Tom, since NK got its nukes, it’s been more isolated than ever.
OK, what I get out of this is you’re busty?
MUL, you cannot prove that the Iranian head-of-state has got no political power, yet you initially made that claim as it conveniently fit your reasoning, yet you ignored that if he had no real political power and your presidential candidate of choice were as smart as you try to make him out to be, there would be no point in meeting up.
Ask Muffti about the specifics of conditionals.
Implicit comparisons also state opinions even if they aren’t put into words. That’s where the “alleged political analyst” fits in. I can call some other woman flat-chested, taking myself as a gauge, without even explicitly stating I’m busty. I can call someone an armchair political analyst, and thereby imply to consider myself a more professional political analyst.
MUL, I don’t think we should categorically refuse to talk to enemies. In the case of Iran, however, the US and the Europeans (aided after a fashion by the IAEA) have in place a mix of multilateral negotiations and a sanctions regime. I don’t see the rationale for departing from that by rewarding Ahmadinejad with direct talks.
To me, Barack’s approach here is just knee-jerk anti-Bushism. After all, here Bush (and Rice) have done what the Democratic left has implored him to do– negotiate while engaging our allies. Same deal with the multi-party talks on No. Korea. That’s not good enough for Barack, leading one to wonder if he has more up his sleeve– such as conceding nukes to Iran while opting for a containment strategy. Indeed, I think that’s where he’s headed. He’ll take office and blame the nukes on Bush, saying it’s too late to take them out; acknowledge Iran’s enhanced regional power; and seek its help on Iraq, Israel-Palestine, and other issues.
All of which will bolster Ahmadinejad and the far-right clerics who prop him in power.
He’s a great threat to world peace insofar as anyone takes him seriously.
I make no claim to being a political analyst. So “alleged” doesn’t even apply. I allege nothing in the way of this supposed status. I merely ask if someone can distinguish between basic concepts such as “The State of Israel” and “The Conflict between the State of Israel and the Palestinians”, especially when they want to quote someone else’s words about a festering wound and apparently become confused about which of the two that’s referring to – even when neither of the individuals actually conducting the conversation were not. (Citation on that later, TM). And my merely pointing that out is not something for which I demand a lot of attention, either. Asking questions based on basic facts usually only offends people who cannot defend their interpretation of basic facts, despite the fact that it is at odds with commonly available definitions.
These are not concepts that require framing. There is not much dispute about what is “The State of Israel”, the “Arab-Israeli Conflict” and whether Ahmedinejad has any power within the Iranian government. If anyone disagrees the burden is usually on them to state why. Unless they have trouble making logical arguments generally and can only re-hash others’ talking points.
Makes me wonder why Muslim Iranian students of mine, that actually know what the situation there is like and understand the news, official and unofficial, delivered from there mean, consider Ahmadinedjad not only a “domestic” loon but one of the greatest threats to world peace.
Maybe they should hang out more with aspiring politicians and self-acclaimed, alleged political analysts that go out out of their way to receive attention.
Middle, are you sure you’re ok with me parsing the sentences for which you keep finding different versions for your re-interpretation, in my spare time? Cutting and pasting definitions for basic words is not something I really have much time for until happy hour.
Tom, you do realize that there’s no advantage to disappointing the Iranian people by cutting off diplomatic options with their leaders, do you? I mean, you at least recognize that 1. Former taxi-cab driver Ahmeghinejad has no power (he’s basically the Iranian equivalent of the white house press secretary), 2. Iranians are pro-American, but not anti-Iranian nationalists, 3. Ahmedinejad is likely to be replaced soon, 4. That if talking to Iran doesn’t yield results, that doesn’t mean that talking to Iran is what would have led to further abuses on their end, 5. That isolating Iran from the Western powers leaves them more easily engaged by Arab interests.
There. That might interrupt the echo chamber with a ripple of some antidote to groupthink long enough. Happy hour’s around the corner. I’ll be back to engage Middle false either/or dichotomies before tomorrow’s news cycle is up and providing further distractions for him.
Give Barack credit for being straightfoward. And he’s no dummy, that’s for sure.
Barack’s replies to Goldberg are interesting in light of his attack on Bush for his Knesset speech. Read it carefully:
“Now, that’s exactly the kind of appalling attack that’s divided our country and alienates us from the rest of the world.”
Translation:
‘Bush’s ‘hot’ approach, with its morally-charged language, simply pisses off Iran and others without solving problems. I’ll reject such alienating and divisive rhetoric.’
If you’re cool with this, by all means vote Barack/Richardson. If not, well, there’s McCain/Jindal.
MUL, you mean that quoting the interview directly wasn’t factual enough for you and now you have to get me the real facts? Which one of us has the fact deficit? I provided you with the transcript of the interview itself. I also provided you with a clear response
Now let us quote you factually:
So it turns out that I wasn’t being misleading, intentionally or not. It turns out that you misrepresented the content of the interview and they were speaking about Israel specifically. It turns out that my statement about what Obama said was factual and correct. And I would extrapolate that it turns out that my statements were therefore ethical and not lies.
On the other hand, since you prevaricated about what Obama said and meant (“Goldberg (and Obama) went out of their way to emphasize that the conflict was what they were referring to, not any one country”), we can say about you “Do you really think it’s ethical to lie like this? Or do you not have any sense of ethics? Do you not think people will see through it?”
Munch on that one, Mr. Ethics.
froylein, the restraining order will cost you. Big time. But it’ll be worth its weight in gold, I promise you. (Did sis read what you wrote about her yesterday?)
Alex, McCain may be slightly older than Vinnie, but that’s where the similarities end. McCain may be Farve-like: unconventional, with his share of picks.
Re the “wound” that is Israel: Barack tells David Brooks and others that he wants to attack ‘root causes’ of conflicts. The mistake Barack risks is turning this into an exercise in cultural anthropology, free of value judgments, in which Iran’s Israel problem and our nuke problem are grievances equally deserving of negotiation.
It’s also a stone’s throw from ‘blame America first’: if it weren’t for the Israelis and their settlements and the fact that no one else in the Middle East likes them, their neighbors wouldn’t overreact with things like nuclear programs. So– crack down on Israel and we eliminate Iran’s grievance and its nuclear program. Or so goes the reasoning.
When all you do is look at causation, viewing grievances in a neutral manner, right and wrong get tossed out the window. This is an excellent approach to divorce mediation. It’s way off target as an approach to Iran, terror and the rest.
As to your assertion that I can’t understand the evidence you provided, I invite you to show where I’m wrong in stating that your evidence doesn’t speak at all to the issue of using leverage to get those talks:
Since you’re either obtuse or intentionally diverting, I’ll remind you what I wrote: “his dovish assertions about how he’ll meet any nuclear-bomb-seeking, Jewish-state-destroying-leader anywhere without any quid pro quo.” The issue of how one negotiates and what one does to get to the negotiating table is part and parcel of sophisticated diplomacy. Obama knows this now but put himself in a corner by not knowing it earlier when he made his assertions about going to meet anybody anywhere. So stop defending a mistake.
I haven’t spoken in coded messages.
Who misunderstands Muffti?
*sigh*
Muffti is so misunderstood 🙂
Ok, TM. I’ll get all the background on what was actuallygoing on in the interview for you later – during my spare time. Is that ok for you? I know it won’t change your mind. Not many facts do. But seeing as how you are just as interested in getting me to agree with you as I am interested in getting you to admit to the significance of a fact every now and then, I’ll do you that favor and get around to addressing this when I have a minute. Ok?