During last week’s apartheid week activities at UC San Diego, groups seeking to bring alternative views to campus brought out David Horowitz to give a talk. In the question period that followed, an exchange between him and a Muslim Student Association (MSA) student led to her statement that she agrees with a genocidal claim against Jews made by Hizbollah’s leader, Nasrallah.

The story has traveled far and wide and apparently the MSA has seen fit to distance itself from their member’s statement by putting out a press release. This is a good thing.

Except, it’s a half-hearted distancing from the topic of killing Jews. If you want a really critical parsing of the press release, which suggests it’s all one big lie, you can read Robert Spencer’s take on it.

I prefer however, not being knowledgeable about Islam in the way Spencer and others are, to focus on what I can see in this press release. Namely, the following:

1.

This week the MSA has hosted Justice in Palestine Week 2010 at UC San Diego, dedicated to raising awareness about the apartheid crisis in Palestine. The crisis is at its core a humanitarian issue, and as such we, the Muslim Students Association, condemn the labeling of this human rights effort as a “Hitler Youth Week” in the words of a recently invited speaker.

Throughout the rest of the press release, nowhere do they mention what their member said, although they quote Horowitz. More important is their designation of the conflict and the “apartheid crisis” as a “humanitarian issue.” That is to deny the fact that this is a political and military issue first and foremost.

2.

Specifically, we condemn all Palestinian factions that have rejoiced in the killing of innocent Israeli civilians just as much as we condemn the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians during Israeli military aggression.

This takes the prize.

They condemn Palestinian groups “that have rejoiced in the killing of innocent civilians.” Rejoiced – not killed or murdered, but rejoiced. And they compare the “killing” of Israelis to the “indiscriminate murder” of Palestinians during “Israeli military aggression.” I guess there’s no Palestinian military aggression and the killing of Israeli civilians is not indiscriminate murder. If a rocket or a suicide bombing kills you, that’s not indiscriminate and does not deserve the condemnation that Israeli actions do or the rejoicing in murders of Israelis by Palestinian groups.

3. And,

We reject the current apartheid system in Palestine-Israel that discriminates against people based on their ethnicity and race.

There is no apartheid in Israel and never was. Certainly, what exists there is not based on race, although the question of ethnicity is open to debate. As anyone who has been to Israel knows, the country is comprised of all races and ethnicities.

4.

We believe that Israel has a due right to be in accordance with international law

Good, because Israel is in compliance with international law as it continues to adhere to both UNSC resolution 242 and to the San Remo and League of Nations conventions of 1920 and 1922 respectively.

———

Here’s what they could have written in their press release:

“We strongly condemn AND REJECT the statement of one of our members who openly advocated genocide of the Jews. We reject violence and we certainly reject genocide. We also differentiate between civilians and soldiers and recognize that in the Arab war against Israel, only active duty soldiers are a legitimate target, just as only Palestinian fighters are legitimate targets for Israel.

Fat chance we’ll see that any time soon.

Hey, maybe next year the UCSD student association can give these guys another $31,700 to hold their anti-Israel festivities.

About the author

themiddle

16 Comments

  • Xisnotx, what can I say…the campus demonstrations are sickening.

    The fact that campuses nationwide are permitting these MSA branches to take over their campuses for a week at a time, frequently with support from faculty or student organizations, so that they can bring their political agenda – which is not one of peace, but one of aggressive hostility toward Israel and its supporters or perceived supporters – to places of learning and scholarship, is extremely troubling.

    They bring out pseudo-scholars and “activists” or fringe scholars and they pound their message day in and day out. And who suffers from all of this? The Jewish students on campus. They either have to hide their Jewishness, hide themselves, or become participants in a battle they never asked for. Suddenly, they are the “other side.” All they want to do is go to school to study and make friends. Why is doing this to them okay?

    Let’s be clear, these are Muslim groups. Sure, they get supported by the leftist groups, but for the most part the primary movers of these campus activities are Muslim groups. So what you have here are universities permitting a particular religious group create a presence on campus that is detrimental to another identifiable group, in this case, Jewish students.

    It’s not like, say, demonstrating against the Iraq war or Vietnam. There, the ostensible opponent was sitting in the White House. There weren’t identifiable people on campus who could be viewed as supporters of “human rights violations.”

    In these campus campaigns, there is an identification of supporters of Israel that often crosses the line into one of hostility. The language of “human rights” usurps the debate with one side doing the accusing and being permitted to use the campus and its resources to bash Israel and anybody who might be affiliated with it. In other words, it’s at the expense of students who supports Israel directly BUT ALSO indirectly. Those students are often going to be Jewish.

    Are universities in the business of facilitating religious factional attacks? Of course not. And they would deny that this is what is going on in their campus. However, that is precisely what is happening here. In this instance, it just so happened that a young woman from one of these campus Muslim organizations came out and stated something that expresses the deep hostility toward their victims on campus. What she said is shocking, but not surprising. After all, we never see these groups running campaigns to convince Abbas to accept peace offers from Israel.

    As a response to this woman from the MSA, the UCSD MSA had an opportunity to clear the air. Instead of doing so, they are being coy and giving us even more rancid rhetoric. In other words, they are trying to obfuscate instead of plainly dealing with something that is about as straightforward as can be.

    A couple of months ago, the MSU at UC Irvine also tried to obfuscate after they led the Michael Oren disruptions. They denied and lied about their participation in those activities even as their members were arrested. Then they led a campus campaign proclaiming themselves victims and denying culpability, which is how they could enjoy reading an editorial on their behalf by a leftist pro-Palestinian professor (with a Jewish name, to boot) who used an antisemitic motif to depict the victimizers as the victims! More obfuscation and more rancid rhetoric.

    There is a pattern here which is part of the movement to pollute campuses with anti-Israel and sometimes anti-Jewish vitriol.

    Yet, the universities allow it. Why are we permitting universities to warmly host certain groups when the outcome is a hostile environment to Jewish students? Are we in Nazi Germany or in North America? Don’t Jewish students deserve to be like any other students on campus? These MSAs are making sure that on many important campuses around the country, and certainly in the University of California system today, Jewish students have a very uncomfortable time throughout their years of study. Meanwhile, as the MSAs and MSUs proceed with their agenda, they are given a pass because EVERYBODY AGREES TO THE DECEPTION that this is about “Zionism” and “open debate.”

    It’s an ugly game and everyone knows what is going on, but everybody is also willing to let it go on. If a few blogs on the net scream about it, xisnotx, that’s not because they’re seeing the glass half empty, it’s because they are willing to talk about the glass. That’s more than I can say about some of the best universities in our country.

    • First of all x, or not x, you should never just skim what I write because it’s always filled with hidden gems.

      Second, the leftist professor is Mark LeVine. You can learn more about what he wrote in this lovely post by yours truly. Note that he wrote this before some emails bubbled up that implicated the MSU in actively preparing for the disturbances of the Oren talk, so that all their denials became moot.

      Third, that article in the Guardian does not reflect reality at all, although it does reflect political correctness. Let’s take the three campuses that we’ve discussed at some length on Jewlicious: UC Irvine, York University in Toronto and UC San Diego. On all of these campuses, the level of hostility from the Muslim groups does not compare to what the Jewish groups do. For example, while Malik Ali was spewing his Jew hatred, sometimes without even bothering to disguise it as Zionist hatred, our Rabbi Yonah was working together with UC Irvine Jewish students to hand out pie to passers-by. Daniel Pipes came to their campus and Michael Oren came to their campus. Comparing those two to speakers like Ali or Norman Finkelstein is a bad joke. At York University, the Jewish students gathered to sing “heveinu shalom aleichem” while Muslim and leftist students hurled abuse at them. Another time, Muslim and leftist students created a mini riot outside Hillel offices while the Jewish and non-Jewish Israel supporters were inside and began chanting nasty slogans about Zionism and Israel. Recently, York prevented the Jewish student groups from hosting an “Imagine Peace” day with speakers like Daniel Pipes because of “security concerns.” They did no such thing with the annual apartheid week hate fest. At UCSD, the Muslim students have brought out Finkelstein, Ali, a radical like Angela Davis, and they shamelessly put up a “wall” while one of their students openly accepts genocidal intentions against Jews. What have the Jewish students done? They’ve brought our Michael Oren to speak.

      The Guardian article is simply predicated on lies. The mainstream Jewish community does not have much communication with the students on campus, and when it does it is usually in the form of the university’s Hillel. It is extremely rare to find a Hillel that isn’t peaceful in its approach to the conflict and that demands the same from its students. In some campuses, the Hillel actually leans left, sometimes hard left. This approach is consistently reflected in the actions of campus Jewish students. For example, the sponsors for the Horowitz talk at UCSD were the YAF and DHFC, the first being Young Americans for Freedom and the latter being David Horowitz’s own group. These are not the Jewish student groups. In other words, the Muslims brought out Finkelstein, a wall, Angela Davis and the Jewish students did nothing other than bringing out Michael Oren some months ago.

      This double standard is exactly what I’m talking about.

  • Hi,

    I just wanted to say, what these Muslims are doing in not condemning Arab aggression in killing innocent civilians are wrong and barbaric. They should portray a more balanced opinion, but know that they are, by majority, the oppressed victims, where Israel by majority are the aggressors. What Israel does to its own arab population and denying Palestinians their right and access to water even, is Israel’s own Nazi Fascism. Where in Judaism does it talk about the fact that that land only belongs to Jews? And where do you draw the map of Israel? I am sure the Scriptures does not draw a modern nation state of Israel….

    • Avsham, the students at UCSD or UCI are not oppressed. They are students at two of the finest institutions of higher learning in the country.

      If you mean that the Palestinians in Israel’s territories are “oppressed victims,” that’s more understandable…except for the fact that they have been offered a state three times in the past decade and have rejected all the offers. They could already have a state of their own, Avsham! Imagine! No screams about “apartheid” or “oppression” or “occupation” but instead they’d be living in their own democratic Palestine on 100% of Gaza, 96% of the West Bank, part of Israel amounting to about the same amount of land as the missing 4% of the West Bank, reparations of about $30 billion, permission to many of the original refugees – the actual ones who left in 1948 – to move into Israel, control over eastern Jerusalem AND an international force led in part by Arab states making the holy basin part of east Jerusalem (where the key holy sites are) into an internationalized enclave.

      Now that’s a really fair deal, and the Palestinians have rejected it. Do you know why they rejected it? Because they believe they can get Israel itself and that is their goal. Why do they think this? Because all over the world, universities are permitting groups like the MSA to become another weapon that the Palestinians can use to deligitimize Israel. Think about it: in Saudi Arabia, women have far less rights than Arab women in Israel or the West Bank, but the MSA at UCSD is concerned about Israel. Think about it: in Sudan over the past decade about 20 times as many victims have been killed as Palestinians over 100 years of conflict with the Jews over Mandatory Palestine and then Israel, but the MSA at UCSD is focused on Israel’s supposed excesses. Think about it: in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Yemen, Eritrea and Iran you have undemocratic regimes controlling the populace, often violently, yet the UCSD MSA is focused on Israel’s supposed discriminatory practices even though its Arab citizens can vote for their leaders and even in the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinians can vote for their leaders.

      Now, a couple more things, Avsham, because I think it’s important for you to know more about the conflict. If you take the average monthly murders of Jews in the first 18 months of WWII, you will come up with about 100,000. In other words, as incredible as it sounds, and there is virtually no debate about the numbers I’m discussing right now, we’re talking about 3000 murdered Jews daily. In Israel’s Gaza offensive, the first day was the most deadly day ever experienced by the Palestinians since Israel was founded. About 250 Palestinians were killed, most of them combatants. So when you write about “Israel’s Nazi Fascism,” you don’t have a clue about what you’re saying. There’s no comparison and there’s no justification for a comparison between Nazis and Israel. Okay?

      As for your confidence about what scriptures say or don’t say, with all due respect, let’s leave the scriptures out of a debate about the activities of students at a university that isn’t affiliated with some religious organization.

  • “First of all x, or not x, you should never just skim what I write because it’s always filled with hidden gems. ” — true dat

  • LOL. You are so brain washed. I really do feel sorry for Jews in their paranoiac inferior complexity, I really do…it is natural I guess and one that is developed as a product of history. I pray that Zionists learn what Judaism is. I hope Jews find contentment in God and mercy in their religion and learn what it means to be just.

    I have a few questions. Nothing to do with MSA, because that is just ridiculous.

    Do Israelis recognise that Israel oppress Palestinians? Why is it a joke that one must write “oppress” as if Palestinians are living in great prosperity like the Israelis? It seems to be far fetched to say that Israel does not oppress Palestinians in any way and allows them full rights and access to education, water, electricity, business, and does not shoot at civilian homes. Even Arab Christians and Muslims are honest about Saddam Hussein’s crime and oppression, and that Hosni Mubarak of Egypt is a dictator, as are many of the leaders of the Muslim lands. Dubai for example is a racist economy built on modern day slave trade from India and Bangladesh, devoid of equality. Americans will tell you what Bush did was wrong in invading other countries. So if Israelis cannot be self critical, how can they correct themselves?

    Do people ever question, why Jewish claim to land starts from the Jewish history of Abraham? If it is the case, in the same logic do not Christians and Muslims have the same right to return to their homeland – the homeland of Abraham?

    Or does it not mean that everyone on the planet – has a right to claim land where Adam and Eve came down in Arabia/Africa? As they are each individuals’ parents?

    The people of Abraham and the Sabians – the descendants of whom are living in modern day Syria – yes their religion has been very much changed in being influenced by Roman paganism, but do they not have more of a right to return to modern day Israel and Palestine, than Jews, Christians and Muslims?

    Judaism by theological definition are the people of Moshe, the Children of Israel. Should it then not mean that they should return to modern day Egypt instead of pre-Moshe community.

    If one was to enforce the logical history of Zionists – i.e. falsely claiming the land of Abraham and his descendents, then Israel should also occupy Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, northern Saudi Arabia, parts of Egypt and other areas.

    Please clarify. Thanks.

  • I love when anti-zionists, anti-semites try to tell me about about my own religion. it’s really interesting how brainwashed they are.

  • LOL Ignorance only breeds arrogance. I was asking questions, unless you are obviously too uncomfortable to address them sir/madam. My stance is if you stand for truth, and you truly believe that Israeli government’s actions, historically and presently are all correct – then you would clearly provide information and answer the questions right? If you are right and I am wrong, as I hope you are, then I will definitely support you.

    I asked them – to all of you who are reading this – to tell me the truth and maybe you would be able to “enlighten” someone with your truth – if it is truth that you hold.

    Please correct my understanding by your “enlightened truth of the ‘Chosen people'” lol.

    – themiddle: Would you accept to have the same plans and give East Jerusalem (pre-settlements) the full control and access of Dome of the rock and Al aqsa mosque to the Palestinians? Considering Israel – the saviour of the world – offered Palestinians land three times in the last ten years, poor angels – if only these Philistines would accept it instead of trying to wipe us all off the map! looooool

    On another lovely note, Rozi darling:
    please explain to me how I am anti-Semetic? Unless you are not talking about me but mentioning that you “love” in general, when “anti-semites” tell you about your own religion. Pffftttt..ahahahahha Firstly, please explain to me what I said is “anti-Semitic” in any form. How do you define Semites? Majority of Semites in their language consist of middle east, north africa and east africa and yes inclusive of people who speak classical hebrew, classical arabic, aramaic, tigre as spoken in Ogaden, etc.

    If you are talking about “Semitic” people as in the lands of שם, well I am sorry to say there were also people of the land of Shem that were there before our ancestors sweetheart, even before Moses, Abraham and Jesus……and on anti-zionism, it all depends on your definition of Zionism. You see in this post modern world, subjective truths have wavered away from ultimate Truths. I am anti-racism, and I hope you are too. Let me define racism for you so you may digest it. It is the idea that an entire race/people is superior than another race(s)/people, etc. Say for example Nazi Germany. Now please tell me how many people you know that truly believe that “We” are the “Chosen people”, better than all other races. Hmmm.

    You know what was the funniest? I was reading on another page of this site that people were asking how to get canned pumpkin soup to feed their cats. LOL

  • Avsham, you have the entire internet at your disposal. Why don’t you look up the origin of the term antisemitism so you don’t come off sounding entirely ridiculous?

    Now, I’ll be honest, your writing isn’t very clear. I don’t have a clue what you asked about east Jerusalem. Otherwise, I’d respond.

    As for truth,the only untruth that relates to this post is the untruth that the Muslim Student Association published something that was supposed to be even-handed. It was nothing more than rancid rhetoric.

    As for your beliefs, Avsham, please tell me, who is racist, the country that houses 20% of its citizens who are of a different religion than the majority 80% or the country where there are no known Jewish citizens, like Jordan or Saudi Arabia? Who is racist, the country that hosts over 70 nationalities among its citizenry, or the countries that host one nationality, such as these Arab countries?

    I believe the real racists are those countries which exclude others on the basis of religion or nationality. Here is the Freedom House 2006 Report discussing Saudi Arabia:

    The Saudi Ministry of Education Islamic studies textbooks … continue to promote an ideology of hatred that teaches bigotry and deplores tolerance. These texts continue to instruct students to hold a dualistic worldview in which there exist two incompatible realms – one consisting of true believers in Islam … and the other the unbelievers – realms that can never coexist in peace. Students are being taught that Christians and Jews and other Muslims are “enemies” of the true believer…

    You want more from the report? Here:

    The Saudi Ministry of Education Islamic studies textbooks reviewed in this report continue to promote an ideology of hatred that teaches bigotry and deplores tolerance. These texts continue to instruct students to hold a dualistic worldview in which there exist two incompatible realms – one consisting of true believers in Islam, the “monotheists,”ix and the other the unbelievers – realms that can never coexist in peace. Students are being taught that Christians and Jews and other Muslims are “enemies” of the true believer, and to befriend and show respect only to other true believers, such as the Wahhabis. These Saudi state textbooks propound a belief that Christians and Jews and other unbelievers have united in a war against Islam that will ultimately end in the complete destruction of such infidels.x Like the statements of Osama bin Laden, they advance the belief that the Crusades never ended and continue today in various forms. Some of the most disturbing examples include the following (See Appendix A for text
    excerpts.)

    Regarding Sunni, Shiite, Sufi and other non-Wahhabi or non-Salafi Muslims, the textbooks:

    *Condemn the majority of Sunni Muslims around the world as “bad successors” of “bad predecessors.”

    *Condemn and denigrate Shiite and Sufi Muslims’ beliefs and practices as heretical, and call them “polytheists.”

    *Denounce Muslims who do not interpret the Koran “literally.”

    Regarding Christians, Jews, Polytheists (including Muslims who are not followers of Wahhabism) and other infidels, the books:

    •Command Muslims to “hate” Christians, Jews, polytheists and other “unbelievers,” including non-Wahhabi Muslims, though, incongruously, not to treat them “unjustly.”

    •Teach that the Crusades never ended, and identify the American Universities in Beirut and in Cairo, other Western and Christian social service providers, media outlets, centers for academic studies of Orientalism, and campaigns for women’s rights as part of the modern phase of the Crusades.

    •Teach that “the Jews and the Christians are enemies of the [Muslim] believers” and that “the clash” between the two realms “continues until the Day of Resurrection.”

    •Instruct students not to “greet,” “befriend,” “imitate,” “show loyalty to,” “be courteous to” or “respect” non-believers.

    •Define jihad to include “wrestling with the infidels by calling them to the faith and battling against them,,”and assert that the spread of Islam through jihad is a “religious obligation.”[the word qital, translated here as “battle,” is derived from the verb qatala, “to kill,” and is virtually never used metaphorically.]

    Regarding Anti-Semitism, they:

    •Instruct that “the struggle between Muslims and Jews” will continue “until the hour [of judgment]” and that “Muslims will triumph because they are right” and “he who is right is always victorious.”

    •Cite a selective teaching of violence against Jews, while in the same lesson, ignoring the passages of the Qur’an and hadiths [narratives of the life of the Prophet] that counsel tolerance.

    •Teach the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact and relate modern events to it.

    •Discuss Jews in violent terms, blaming them for virtually all the “subversion” and wars of the modern world.

    Now, in Israel, there may be some schools that teach this type of hate, although I doubt there are many, but the schools run by the state government do not teach anything like the hatred to other faiths that is apparently being taught in Saudi Arabia to its children.

    You said that you are anti-racist, so now I expect you to unequivocally criticize Saudi Arabia and acknowledge that Israel is much more respectful of individuals who are not Jewish than Saudi Arabians to those who are not Muslim.

    I have provided you with information that is indisputable, addresses your comment about being anti-racism, since it is evident that an Arab country like Jordan which does not allow Jews citizenship or an Arab country that insults other religions by proclaiming their inferiority, like Saudi Arabia, are the racist nations here. It appears the people who truly believe they are the “chosen people” are Jordanians and Saudis, not Israelis.

    Now don’t be a liar, Avsham, you promised

    “If you are right and I am wrong, as I hope you are, then I will definitely support you.”

    Well, now you know I am right and I am therefore very glad to have your support.

  • Finally got a response – Thank You. 🙂

    This is the order of your points:

    1) Anti semitism
    2) East Jerusalem – which you did not understand, that fine, I’ll write clearly hopefully this time.
    3) Muslim Students Association
    4) How racist Saudi Arabia and Jordan is 😀 LOL LOL
    – Racism
    – Citizenship
    – Truth/Lie

    Before I start let me engage in your couple of lines of non-sense on Antisemitism –

    1) ANTI-SEMITISM (which themiddle was not even part of and it was directed towards rozi):

    THEMIDDLE: “Avsham, you have the entire internet at your disposal. Why don’t you look up the origin of the term antisemitism so you don’t come off sounding entirely ridiculous?”

    Just did what you told me – I looked it up and hopefully you can realise what I am saying, lol:
    DEFn: Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Semitic peoples, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion.
    Note Semitic peoples: as I mentioned in the thread just above – “Majority of Semites in their language consist of middle east, north africa and east africa and yes inclusive of people who speak classical hebrew, classical arabic, aramaic, tigre as spoken in Ogaden, etc.”

    Now, i wanted YOU to clarify “Anti-semitism.” Biased Zionist definitions exclude Arabs and North/East Africans from being Semites. I wanted to know whether Rozi and yourself truly understand what anti-semitism is.
    To me, as mentioned above, it is a particular attitude that is reflected towards Semites.

    Now rozi/the middle and whoever else wants explain to me how my note above is “rooted in the hatred of Semites” as per the definition of Anti-semitic.

    For as far as I am concerned I asked you to speak the truth about your religion and what the scriptures say as I genuinely wanted you to tell me your beliefs. There is a diverse opinion among Jewish views on this – particularly on the rebuilding of Solomon’s temple and expansion of settlements in Palestinian lands.

    Maybe you can look the definition up yourself and then re-read what I wrote and tell me whether I said anything that is remotely anti-semitic? If not, then please accept that I did not and Rozi is wrong. If you would like my personal opinion, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus are all my friends and they do not bother me, what bothers me are Zionists, Nazis/racists, classists and zealots. So yes, if I was at the time of Hitler, I would fight to my death to defend Jews, gypsies, Muslims, sub-Saharan Africans, the disabled, homosexuals and any other people that were killed in the torture chambers.

    Maybe some of you do not know about the close affiliation between Nazi Germany and Zionism? Let me see if I can find a link. okay, found one.
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm

    2) EAST JERUSALEM:

    Frankly speaking I don’t like the Palestinian government and the people associated with it. The reason I hate them is because I have expectations of them. In contrast I do not hate Israeli government. You see to hate them is to expect something that arouses strong emotional response when those expectations are not met.
    Now, how can you expect justice from Unjust oppressors? Its like going to the Pharoah and asking him to become humble and easy on the followers of Moses. People forget the actions of Israeli governments and militaries. How can one forget that the Zionist government supported south african aparthied? I wonder how true Jews feel that their government did this.

    Who I feel rather sorry for are Palestinians suffering. I also feel sorry for the everyday people that live in Israel, due to the brainwashing Herzl’s Zionism. I do not care what these morons discuss on peace deals on either side, but I care about those on the ground, many of whom cannot eat or have access to water. And you may say those who get bombarded with rockets in Sderot, yes them also – to me a crime is a crime no matter who does it. But one must look at why these crimes take place, is it due to hatred, oppression, lack of rights and freedom, misleading intentions or other factors etc.

    What I was asking to you personally was: would you, and others like you on the streets of Israel, or Jews living abroad be happy to see West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem and Golan Heights created as Palestine. What about the difference of opinions among Zionists and non Zionist Jews?

    Due to the fact that Israeli borders are always changing since illegal expansions of settlements and road blocks/wall, I want to clarify the borders being pre-Wall, pre-settlement extensions, back to 1947 when the international borders were drawn. If Israel ever offered Palestine that, it would make sense. Is that what people like you would support?

    3) MSA – I will response to this if it becomes appropriate. Right now it is not even relevant. If you get the chance, please talk to people from MSA, as I have and see what they are like. Talk to as many of them as you can and then decide what kind of people they are like instead of writing hate mongering articles.

    4) Saudi and Jordan LOL

    I am starting to believe that you possibly cannot read my argument either because your anger affects your brain, or you do not know what an argument is. LOL

    A valid and sound argument consists of supporting premises – all of which support a conclusion. I am not denigrating you by saying this, but the repose that was written shows a complete lack of intelligence and a shallow understanding of an argument.

    MY ORIGINAL POST – – about corrupt Arab governments oppressing their people

    Let me refer to my original post, which is clear for everyone to see if they scroll above:

    ” Even Arab Christians and Muslims are honest about Saddam Hussein’s crime and oppression, and that Hosni Mubarak of Egypt is a dictator, as are many of the leaders of the Muslim lands. Dubai for example is a racist economy built on modern day slave trade from India and Bangladesh, devoid of equality. Americans will tell you what Bush did was wrong in invading other countries. So if Israelis cannot be self critical, how can they correct themselves?”

    As you can see above, even before you mentioned the Wahhabi Saudi government, I condemned them. As a matter of fact, many of them are slaves to the US government. The secular government of Syria, the Jordanian royals, the Saudi royal family, the Kuwaiti royal family, Emirati government that alllow Zionist businessmen and government space in Dubai and the list goes on and on…NOW i hope you can understand by reading this simple example.

    Let me explain to you in easy basic examples of how your logic works in your argument:

    **Say a person named George is a bad man, be cause he is racist and kills, oppresses, etc.

    **Now I said firstly, that George is bad. SO i tell you to admit that George is bad although you may like him, because you should admit that George has killed innocent people and tortured them of their access to education, water, blowing up hospitals, etc.

    **Your response is this:
    “Andrew – George’s neighbour – is worse than George, for not giving citizenship and teaching hatred.”

    (George = Israel, Andrew = Saudi and Jordan)

    NOW:
    I have already mentioned that Andrew is wrong, but admit George is immoral and an oppressor as well.

    Did I mention that Saudi and co. are racist even before your facts? YES I DID.
    Do they claim to be an open liberal society? No they do not.
    Does Israel claim to be in open liberal society? Yes they do.
    Does US claim to be an open liberal society? Yes they do.
    Does US teach hatred of other faiths, like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel etc and superiority of Christian right wing Zionism? Yes they do
    Does Israel oppress people by making laws that do not allow Palestinians access to water/shooting at universities/ blowing up hospitals/not allowing medical treatment/using phosphorus to burn civilians? I think the answer speaks for itself, so please stand up for the truth and do not cover up truths. What kind of Judaism do you follow that allows you to not be just?

    I am against racism as mentioned before, thus I am against Zionism. I am for truth as you have mentioned.

    “If you are right and I am wrong, as I hope you are, then I will definitely support you.” And yes i stand by what i said. Please be honest to yourself. I do not trust Israeli government and military, please do not betray my trust upon everyday people like you.

    Zionism was never part of Judaism, so please do not spread lies. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm

    • Oh Avsham, you are intent on wasting time.

      1. I asked you to look up the ORIGINS of the term antisemitism, not a dictionary definition. You didn’t do what I asked or else you would have understood that the term was created specifically to refer to Jews.

      2. If you want a connection between the Nazis and somebody in the region, you would do well to track the activities of Haj Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti and leader of the local Arabs who now go by the name Palestinians.

      3. If you want to have a theological debate about things you know little about, go find a local rabbi. You should know, however, that Israel was founded by secular Jews, not religious ones and the creation of the state was predicated on culture and history, not on the bible.

      4. Israel’s borders are ever-changing because the Arabs launched a war in 1948 and then refused to lock in the borders in the armistice agreements of 1949. The Jordanian and Egyptian peace deals lock in borders (well, sort of with the Jordanians because they leave West Bank negotiations to the Palestinians). The problem Israel faces with 1947 and 1949 lines is they were proven to be entirely insecure. They also permitted the Arabs to keep Jews away from the Old City in east Jerusalem which houses the ancient Jewish Quarter and the Temple Mount. If you can find a way to make peace where these issues are addressed, then I am all for it. You will note that Israel proposed a deal that addresses those concerns and shares Jerusalem and the holy basin in 2008. The Palestinians didn’t negotiate once the offer was made and then announced the “gaps were too wide” in an interview with Abbas a year later.

      5. I have spoken to MSA members. In a number of instances, the used the word “Zionist” as if it were an epithet. They often had a hard time when challenged with facts, but that’s not surprising since I’ve been debating this issue for years. A great deal of what you see from an MSA depends on the campus and the university. We’ve been discussing those campuses where we’ve seen specific activities: UC Irvine and UC San Diego. At other times we’ve covered other universities that are hotbeds of anti-Israel activity but without focusing on any specific organization because we didn’t know of a particular affiliation.

      In this instance, we have an MSA student saying she’s “for” genocide and a press release from the MSA (where she is an officer), using language that I call rancid rhetoric to do a half job of distancing themselves. It isn’t me espousing hatred, I’ve never advocated genocide and when I denounce it, I speak very clearly.

      6. There is no doubt that you are far smarter than I could ever hope to be and there is also no doubt that whatever I write is shallow and not to the point.

      However, Israel isn’t a racist country, Zionism is not a racist political movement, the US does not teach hatred of other faiths and the conflict with the Palestinians is actually a very complex one and the accusations that Israel shoots at universities or blows up hospitals without, for example, stating that Hamas uses hospitals for cover or purposely blends with a civilian population in a war they brought on themselves by shooting thousands of rockets and violating a cease fire even as it was coming up for renewal, is nothing more than yet again, rancid rhetoric.

      7. In Israel, the Arab minority has rights that can only be dreamed of in most Arab countries. There is definitely discrimination against Arabs, which I oppose, but it is borne out of a century-old conflict that pits two nations against each other. That doesn’t make it right, but it also doesn’t make it something that comes out of some “chosen people” lecture some anti-Israel speaker gave you. It also doesn’t come from “racism” although I do think there is concern within Israel that its non-Jewish Arabs are aligned with some of its enemies or that at least a good portion of them are.

      The other day, an Israel Arab member of Knesset stated openly that Israel was a “foreign power” in east Jerusalem. This is not just an Arab, non-Jewish citizen, but one who is an elected representative of the Arabs who vote for his party. Do you know what was done to him by your “racist Israel” which considers its heritage in Jerusalem to be 3000 years old? Nothing! He was free to make more pronouncements the rest of that day and the day following and the day following. Nobody followed him home or prevented him from getting a job, going to pray or shopping where he wanted. On the contrary, I would argue that the vast majority of Israelis hope that such a person would one day view his country, Israel, favorably, so they could be good neighbors.

      That is the truth about Zionism.

      That is the truth you should be embracing and supporting, as you had promised.

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