Well, well, well, after years of enjoying the support and protection of the state of Israel and of the IDF in particular, the settlement movement has decided to teach others a number of lessons:
1. How to be thankless. They are now calling Israel undemocratic; labeling their patron, Sharon, a traitor (and far worse), and; applying pressure to anybody among them who supports the government.
2. How to undermine democracy. They are breaking the law on a consistent basis. Usually the law-breaking has not involved physical harm to others, but economic damage has definitely been caused.
The reasoning they tend to use involves the illegitimacy of this government, its prime minister, the supreme court, and their decisions. They attack the media as if it is one big illegitimate block that aligns itself with the state and avoids real reporting. They attack the police for using “evil” tactics and the IDF for being politicized.
There remains not a single organ of the state which is not under attack. What is more disturbing is that rabbis are given respect not accorded to the government or its organs.
3. How to significantly weaken the IDF. This one is a particularly unfortunate decision they have made. By encouraging mass defections and mass refusal to serve or to obey orders, they have opened the floodgates. As Chief of Staff Halutz told their leadership today, they are establishing a prededent wherein Leftist secular soldiers could refuse to serve in, say, Hebron. The very act of refusal of a legitimate and peaceful government decision, and the obvious attempt to provide rabbis with greater authority than commanders also assures the IDF that in the future at least one part of its forces may not be reliable.
4. How to pin down the IDF, the police and essentially shut down the state. Now this is a particularly valuable lesson that the settlers are providing to the Palestinians.
First of all, the settlers were able to smuggle a few hundred people into Gaza last week, proving that Gaza cannot be sealed. The Palestinians are giddy with joy.
Second, the settlers are now planning to recreate their efforts at Kfar Maimon last week by doing it in two places simultaneously. Why? Because they were able to put a great deal of stress on both the IDF and police manpower capability at Kfar Maimon. They believe that two centers will really weaken these forces’ ability to respond and control large numbers of people. Oh my, are the Palestinians happy about this. I hear they are already pulling off their shelves the dusty copies of Ghandi’s abridged “How to Practice Overwhelming Civil Disobedience” and watching carefully to see how many locations and how many thousands of peaceful protesters are sufficient to overwhelm the IDF. In a coordinated move, one can see how this would work nicely with a coordinated attack from an enemy such as Hizbullah in Lebanon.
And so it goes. A legitimate disagreement with a government decision has made the settlers decide they will undermine everything about the state that has enabled the state to last this long and to have a promising future. I’m sure they’re telling themselves that the harder they make it, the better it will be in the long run because they will scare off any government that wishes to affect settlers in the West Bank. What they don’t seem to want to realize or acknowledge is that they are causing harm that is stressful to the system and the state, and jeopardizes both its democracy and its deterrent power with respect to its military and its police.
Pretty thankless, if you ask me.
cheapest tadalafil online compare prices
accutane 10mg price
baclofen generic
Has anybody been to The Vape Shop? 😉
the settlers have every right to be there now all of sudden the israeli state changed there mind and about wether they have that right is forceing them out what would you do
Thatas they way leftist are:
Peace from the left-side of the mouth and repression of rights from the right side of the mouth.
Yeah yeah yeah.
You are so right, I am left speachless 🙂
Be happy, for peace.
Now that we are talking about tyranny
This article is why I consider you Bergman to be with tyrants – because you endorse and are happy with tyranny.
You are case in point of intolerant demogogues.
The website you quoted makes all types of links of independant events to Kach. Baruch Goldstein acted independently:
“102. On 26 June 1994, the Cabinet adopted the findings and recommendations of the Shamgar Commission’s report on the Hebron massacre, which found that Baruch Goldstein alone was responsible…”-it found no connection to any organization.
You are the standard leftist demogogue who uses innuendo to disallow my rights.
I don’t know Goldstein but you are happy to disenfranchise me – only what you believe is OK not what others believe.
I therefore consider you and your friends to be the tyrants.
Oh dear…
Kahane was outlawed because he was an outright racist – may I remind you that after his failure to get elected in 1980, he sat in jail for plotting to attack the temple mount; he was trying to legislate Nuremberg style laws (and failed) – in fact, none of his legislative proposals no-confidence motions were passed, in fact he was so reviled he all MP used to leave the Knesset floor during his speeches. Whichever way you wishful think his teachings, he was banned from Knesset through a democratic process and later failed to change that through a high court case. If anything, Kahane is one of the cases where Israeli democracy can stand high and proud. It was the same powers that almost tripped democracy when they approve Marzel but rejected Tibi & Bishara for the last election. Thankfully, The High court intervened again. You are probably right that there are more hateful and small-minded people nowadays in Israel then in the 80s – the Marzel case proves the point. But the fact is Kach (and Kahane Chai) were outlawed in a democratic process. This is what the Council of Foreign Relations – probably the most conservative, right-wing think tank ever – has to say about your hero:
http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/kkc_print.html
Sorry mate, but sometimes a spade is just a spade. No matter how many people you think believe in this vile version of lebensraum, it is still detrimental to democracy and should be shunned, banned, ostracised and ignored.
Joe, we should leave it man, we don’t see eye to eye, and your reasoning is so alien to mine that however many constructs I’ll try, you will read into it what suits you. At best, you think me Bozo. So be it. But remember this – mightier people than us have tackled these questions.
“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.”
(Einstein)
“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.”
(Robert Heinlein)
“No cause is left but the most ancient of all, the one, in fact, that from the beginning of our history has determined the very existence of politics, the cause of freedom versus tyranny.”
(Hannah Arendt)
“A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious.”
(Aristotle)
Be happy. Michael.
Michael,
You brought a few nice websites – I don’t know how they helped you at all. Some quoted 58% for Kahane some 13.1%, You see I’m not focussing on the numbers- That’s not my point.
My point is that israel doesn’t allow people the option of choosing a platform they would want. I don’t care if its only 1%.
Truth is that if it was only 1% support israel would not have banned it since it would be no threat. They banned it because they are scared.
I only bring down the polls to show that many people really are disenfranchised thats all and to answer those who irrelevantly say ‘nobody supports kahane anyway’ – which just happens to be complete nonsense.
I would hope you can understand that simple point. 13.1% is a lot of people to disenfranchise and to declare that democracy is not open to them. I personally believe that the numbers are muich higher than 13.1% probably somewhere between 13.1% and the 58% in the other poll – but again the specific numbers are not so much the issue as the fact that an idea is banned and people are disenfranchised from a party representing what they want.
ybochur,
There is freedom of press but within limits- thats always the way it is. Even in Russia there was freedom as long as you didn’t overstep their borders. In Russia’s case it has to do with communism. In Israel it has to do with saying that arabs and non-Jews should not be allowed to vote on policies affecting Jews. If one would suggest that the arabs should be removed from israel since they intend on destroying Israel – that it too much for Israel’s ‘democracy’ and you can be arrested. The same with freedom to vote. There is freedom- up to a point. If I believe that the arabs should be removed and I make a political party with that platform it is not allowed.
That is what happened with Kach. In fact Kach was in the Knesset already and when the government saw they were growing and people wanted them- they were banned from running and the star-fist symbol declared off limits (you got it illegal to wear it!)
Regarding the external danger-
The danger from outside arab countries is real- but the war is going to come anyway- you know that from history.
Whenever the arab countries thought they might win they began a war. As Israel becomes weaker the more likely the arabs will begin a war. Only the blind don’t see it.
The path israel is travelling now is the path of suicide and definite war started by the arabs external and internal- we must stop Israel’s direction now.
Hi Joe, long time… Bozo here (again…).
Past conversations with you have taught me we’ll get nowhere – both of us I guess are too opinionated and too convinced in our world-views – I’m not holding my breath here I’ll manage to say something that will evoke anything but scorn from you, but since this conversation is in the public domain, and I do believe the times are crucial to keep a dialougue and maybe even foster some understanding in between opposing ends, I’ll answer. Rest assured I do not expect to be right, and in advance I already concede that I have not an ounce of the truth, I know very little if at all, in fact let’s just start with the notion I am complete nincompoop and be done with – fair enough?
But just to set the record straight:
When you eat a sweet apple, do you need someone else to tell you it is sweet? I am far from being studious and smart in many a subject, but I recognise Right from Left (and hopefully right from wrong) when I see it. I am glad I make you laugh – more jokes in this website here –
If you were not so quick on the trigger, I would have like to try harder; once, if you remember, you challenged me to find evidence Kahane is racist – propelled me into some interesting walkabout in the bowls of some very low-brow and somewhat fascist (sorry) websites. Never got a decent answer bar the assertion that “It is not just against me and Rabbi Kahane that you point your finger. It is against all religious Jews and against your own forefathers.†So I’m doomed already, anyway.
I imagine you base your facts on the following article – at least that is what you mentioned on an earlier post on Jewschool:
link
I could not actually find the poll in Maariv mentioned in the JP article, however, few sources are quoting the same figures:
Example here: link
Here: link
And in your own ‘neck of the woods’ (judging by the posts – one of them even calls Sharon “The Grand Wizard of Israel’s KKK†and “Der Fuerer†): link
They both talk about two polls – one in cjannel 2 TV and another in Maariv. And please, before going gaga over the numbers in the TV poll, please remember 18-22 years old are hardly masters of political insight and wise elders of life’s trials and tribulations – raging hormones and strutting fragile egos are usually more like it. The Maariv poll, however, at least was meant to survey cross-section, thus the more reliable figure is 13.1. Even then one would have to suspect the question if indeed it was only presenting Kahane as “pro-Jewish, strong, and consistentâ€. May I remind you that every good bagel also fits that description…
And once and for all, since you are so fond of polls, here is another nugget I found while surfing – A national poll published by Maariv on 15 September 2004 reveals that 58 percent support Sharon’s disengagement plan; 29% object to it. Bingo. That might even silence the Gevalt cries from our friend Ben David Franklin, who is right about the fact most people support a referendum (69%); BUT forgets that if there was one most would vote in favour of disengagement. I am not sure how many years have you lived in Israel BD, but the article does suggest a very good explanation for the odd discrepancy: a basic Israeli trait – we love to give our opinions, and we love it more when we are asked.
Sorry for the lengthy schpiel, but Joe did ask…
For peace, but really – Michael
link
Ok- there have been so many posts that this will probably be completely ignored but I feel like I have to say something because it is a MAJOR pet peeve.
1. The settlers are not thankless to the army. They are the army. There are more settlers in active Kravi units than any other demopraphic.
They call Israel undemocratic because it is. Sharon got elected (with their support) on a platform AGAINST the disengagment. Now, in office he decided to change his mind. His democratically elected party didn’t support him and now he has gone to other parties for support. Does that sound democratic to you? Duh, of course the people who voted him into office are pissed (including me)
2. Since when is civil disobedience anti-democratic? Really, you can’t say “Don’t strike or protest because it may cost us some money.”
3. I agree that encouraging soldiers to disobey orders is sticky. But it is an army of the people for the people. If Sharon has decided to go against the people who voted him into office than the whole system starts to fall apart.
4.I wish that the palestinians would learn from the settlers about civil disobedience. Then, maybe they would hold a love in, instead of shooting people on the roads or blowing them up in cafes.
As far as Gaza not being sealed. This is not a news flash to the palestinans- how do you think so many of them get to work everyday. They have a whole system worked out for smuggeling people in and out.
I have to ask: Why do peaceful protests piss you off so much?
Joe Schmo, I am really confused. You are quoting official israeli media, so I understand that there is some kind of press freedom in Israel, right? But I still havent heard of war coming. Nothing in the press that you find convient to quote and to bash in the same time.
Then just because in the survey they ssaid thath 1/3 of Israeli public express its sentiment that doesnt actually means that this how many supportes Kach has, You should know better than that since you are involved in the politics.
You say that if israel wants to be democratic they should let Kach come back. Now, I dont know so much about Kachane policy but you tell me – would he convey all his actions being in power in a fully democratic way? Or maybe in some situations even Kach would see it fit to suspend some democratic freedoms?
Again about the communist countries.
1) Israel is not a communist regime. If you really think so then you clearly do not know what you talking about. If you just using this example to make point then you are demagogue yourself.
2) All political changes that happened in the Europe 1988-1991 happened within the athmosphere of a very remote military danger. The only violance has occurred during the end of the Soviet Union downfall in Moscow. But this was all internal conflict. Israel is surrounded by countries that are not kibbitzing Israel so any political instability that may lead to the decrease of defense abilities should not be an option, nachon?
So you mean that a lot more people turned to the Right in Israel and those who were already from the Right turned even more Rightward?
What does that have to do with reality and democracy, you Destroyer of Zionism ™? Democracy means that both minority and majority are able to express their opinion and attempt to influence politics and policy. It’s not as if the people you count as Kahanists (although I bet they would shy away from that description) in the Knesset haven’t tried. They’ve been trying to undo the disengagement and Sharon’s government for months using tactics that have brought down Israeli governments before.
If anything, you Undemocratic Neandrethal ™, what has been proven here is that you talk democracy and choice as long as things are going your way, as do Ben David et al. Gimme a break.
And guess what, you Fascist Whiner ™, Israel is such a fine democracy that as we write, you could attempt to influence laws so that not only will you be able to get your fellow moron travelers into the Knesset, but impact laws written and passed by the Knesset even without a Kach party in there.
Man, talk about an army of straw men.
Bergman, mango smoothies are fine, beers are fine, sangria is fine, chilled orange juice is fine, and just the other day I tasted pomegranate juice and that would be fine as well.
bergman again,
Bozo Bergman quote: “thus Kahane in his world can be supported by a 1/3 of the people in Israel (thus assuming over 2 Million people) – and where is the proof? An article in a right-wing newspaper, mentioning a 2004 poll conducted by a yellow rag (he conveniently ignores the actual figures – 13.1% of the 500 people asked said they would favour a leader like Kahane)”
hmm I havent seen anything about 13.1% of 500 people would you have a link to that?
I see, both Jerusalem post I linked to
and the maariv the Jpost quoted:
“The letter coincides with the publication of a
survey in Ma’ariv on Wednesday according to which a third of the Israeli public thinks Kach should be legalized and that Kahane was right in proposing to deport all Arabs from the land of Israel. ”
according to you they (both the Jpost and Maariv) are right-wing right?
You are laughable.
I forgot, TM, gladly anytime. BTW, do you like Mango smooties?
Hmmm, wine and cheese – that calls for a poem. And one day I hope, BD, you and I will see eye to eye at least for a cracker or two. Your choice of refreshment, though, indicates a slight bias towards yuppies/liberals – Why not Kugel-fingers, or maybe some plum-kompot sherberts? Actually why not some Humus and carrots (a hippie favourite the world over). Anyway, being the left Fascist that I am, I should prefer beer and dead animals, no? None of that refined stuff please! Wine & cheese, yech…
Culinary digressions aside, it is interesting to note who in the comments posts wholesale “blaming all the right people†– let’s see: ‘socialist clique, secular elite, Supreme Court, State-controlled media AND the left-liberal international press, Academia’. Oh yes, and one newly discovered dictator, and his family, the police and the army… I think you forgot the Romulans and the Cardassians – why leave them out?
Point is – and there is a little existential plotting here – if you want to be right about something, you will find the facts that support your storyline. For every poll that indicates orange, there will be one outlining the blues. ‘Doing the math’ as you call it is not a matter of defining unshakable and founded axioms but a process of tallying up the anecdotes proving your opinions – Joe for example, is an expert in this art, thus Kahane in his world can be supported by a 1/3 of the people in Israel (thus assuming over 2 Million people) – and where is the proof? An article in a right-wing newspaper, mentioning a 2004 poll conducted by a yellow rag (he conveniently ignores the actual figures – 13.1% of the 500 people asked said they would favour a leader like Kahane), oh, and “two nice websiteâ€â€¦
Speaking of which, where exactly is your proof that “The settler movement has shown itself to be THE major voice truly championing democracy and equality in Israelâ€?! Where on the ground there is a shred of evidence for such a preposterous notion? In democracy, a majority of people chooses representatives who reflect their interests; in a good democracy, minorities also get a say in matters that affects them. I actually tend to agree that Israel is really neither, because of the peculiar balance of power in the Kneset and the way ‘security’ always carry favour in our institutions. I also accepts that there is a thinly veiled class of people who hold lots of power since the country was formed. And I am fascinated by your assertion you are not interested to replace Leftist Fascism with Rightist Fascism. But to say the settlers are the champions of democracy and equality? Come of it. The definition of Fascism has four components: Nation/Race above the individual; Violence and Propaganda to suppress opposition; Economic and Social regimentation; merging of State with Corporate power. Sorry to be blunt, but the Israeli conduct in the territories only lacks the forth. There goes your equality, anyway. And any group that adheres to a religious decree and profess religious leaders as having the final/superior say in national matters is hardly democratic.
Oh, yes, the Poem. It is called ‘Mending Wall’, by Robert Frost:
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
“Stay where you are until our backs are turned!”
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, “Good fences make good neighbors.”
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
“Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down!” I could say “Elves” to him,
But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, “Good fences make good neighbors.”
And a drink, to your health, and to peace 🙂
I hope any revolution would be peaceful. Even if not peaceful it has to happen. But I’ll give you a peaceful scenario.
100,000 people actually get to Gush Katif chain themselves up and go into bunkers and refuse to leave. Basically thwart the government and not let it pass. Demonstrations en masse inside Israel to change the govenment and allow kach and other disenfranchised groups the ability to have power. With enough people they can effectively force the government out. Thats what happned in Russia and other communist states they were overthrown when all their policies failed.
Its time for that to happen in Israel.
I don’t expect it to happen – I expect before that a war with the arabs- unfortunately most people don’t seem to have much forsight…
but that brings me back to why I admire Rabbi Meir Kahane…
Joe Schmo, first of all you should know that I ma not influenced by bias media because I dont have time for media. I decided that if there is anything important to know it ll appear and/or get commented on Jewlicious. So they have my exclusive rights.
Then I understand that politics are dirty and you know what? Tell me politics are clean. Do you really think that any revolution in the history brought justice instead of rapid change of guards?
Are you a marxists or what?
And you still didnt explain me how you envision a revolution that we will not endanger the Israel’s security.
Yes Steve I agree there is a culture war going on.
Unfortunately for your side the arabs who you want in your midst don’t want you.
Therefore it would make sense not to give Yehuda and Shomron to the enemy – give better Tel Aviv and the place where this Baskin guy lives to the arabs since he and you think that the arabs are nice neighbors.
The problem with all these opinion articles is that its all talk. The real issues such as the arab intention of wiping out Israel and all the other unpleasant facts are simply ignored.
How easy is it for them to demand that others give up their homes and live with murderous enemies.
How easy indeed…
Another interesting article
Ben-David,
Your argument is quite lame because if Sharon is democratically elected how can you call on soldiers to refuse orders? Instead democratically get Sharon out and put in your person. Since all these years you right-wingers couldn’t do it it sounds extremelly lame to sat that the ‘will of the people’ is being ignored.
ybochur,
You are mistaken. Fully a third of Israel is disenfranchised. Here is a jerusalem post article quoting such a survey:
I tell you to go back to when Kach was banned- they were on the way to get 10-13 knesset seats according to polls at that time.
For your information here are two nice websites to get more information from.
http://www.masada2000.org/kahane.html
http://www.kahane.org
ybocher,
Don’t be influenced only by what you hear in the media- you have to use your own head and openly listen to the voices of those not listened to and those oppressed.
Many people – and the worst of them on the ‘right’ like Ben-David- use words like ‘fascism to stifle discussion. A solid answer you won’t hear from them.
Therefore, ybochur, it behooves you to seek out those who others call names and to find out why they say what they say and to use your own head to come to a conclusion.
Keep in mind always that the demagogue who has no arguments on their side simply attempt to defame the other side through demagoguery and name-calling.
I would enjoy a glass of wine with M. Bergman, that was a fine comment!
Schmo – thanks very much, but my discourse is not “lame” just because I’m not interested in replacing leftist fascism with rightist fascism – and whether or not Kach should have been banned, the fact is that many modern Kachniks are fascists.
May I suggest that Michael Bergman and The Middle meet somewhere for some wine and cheese? The two of you can wrap things up neatly between you, blaming all the right people. Meanwhile both of you fire off accusations without any support, blithely ignoring citations of fact that contradict your theories.
Other posters asked if I/the settler movement would accept a referendum. The settler movement joined the nationalist core of the Likud party in calling for a referendum repeatedly over the past year.
The left and Sharon strenuously argued against it (ironically, some of the left’s pipestemming arguments where published just as Europeans went to the polls to vote on the EU.)
Those who press for a referedum usually are pretty confident that they’ll win it. Those who try to avoid such a referendum usually fear they will lose it. You do the math.
Reading the many comments above (Laya and TM, cool down on your freshness will ya?) I tend to find myself agreeing (how odd) with Josh – not to the extent of professing indifference to peace all around – au contraire – but at least sharing the wish for a open heart and more tolerant understanding between Jews. For these days are proving to the unravelling of Israeli identity. Not because this is the first time disagreement reign (after all it is in our blood and spirit to opinionate), but because – and I have a feeling that is what TM was trying to say – the kind of action in the streets is completely irreversible – we are tearing the possibility of a coherent nationhood because the tactics exploited undermine not just the democratic process but also the recognition of the other side as human beings bound – all of us – by common history and tradition and future needs.
We are all underwriters for this tragedy:
The settlers for crying fowl on the democratic process while they never were bothered by injustice when it was done on their behalf;
others, who fail to understand the level of trauma involved for those who are to be moved. Justified or not, uprooting is never easy – it is a pity the settlers do not recognise that kind of pain when reflected in their neighbours, but this does not negate that their anguish is genuine;
the Palestinians for playing double-sided games of governance and guerrilla, peace and terror.
I must say Ben-David’s post brings up a somewhat sad smile – where are the violins? The settlers never had much care for democratic due diligence when they were at the receiving end of favouritism never seen before and hopefully never repeated again. Arik Sharon has changed a little since his 1953 murderous escapade to Qibya village in Jordan (the irony of life – Ben Gurion blaming “fanatical Jewish Settlersâ€). DB, you finally clicked the guy cares much for power and little for the law? But it is actually his pragmatic side that dictates his current politics – not peace is on his mind but sacrificing as little as possible under the dictates of Big Brother. One could look at the picture as follows: in the past, American aid money funded American immigrants and poor Israelis to settle on disputed land; now American money will be used to mollify richly compensated settlers removed under American pressure to a land that is not disputed anymore.
Bottom line, the Palestinians probably do not need much instruction – besides almost 40 years of living under our own rifles, they have their own scandalous security apparatuses to practice subversion upon. Nevertheless, TM is pretty much right about all his points not so much because the unfolding story has free classes in dismantling the dominant paradigm but because it has brought about focus on what every person not awe-stricken by grand visions of biblical proportions has long known – that the banality of evil is incremental; that power corrupts; that if you are careless about the struggle of people to be heard you will have to listen to sirens; that democracy is not strengthen by wielding batons; that we are weaker because of the occupation and that any of our civil institutions AND our structures of security will pay a dear price for its debilitating snare on sanity and suffocating crush on compassion. As you sow, so shall you reap. Life is actually pretty fair that way – you cannot murder and inherit. May we all use this chance to practice little insight and orech roo-ach – beyond race or religion or political view.
There is a war coming??? Man is that your own opinion or you have others opinions to back it up? Anybody from Jewlicious or any of the commenters?
I m not so sure revolution can be peaceful. The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia wasnt real revolution and the final act of the Pieriestroyka (if you insist to call it a revolution) wasnt so peaceful, there were not many casualties but there wer tanks and people firning at people. I hope this is not what you wish for Israel.
Then you say thet third of Israel is disenfranchised and the rest is scared. Did I understand you right? So I understand there is also no freedom of press because I never heard such terrible report on the situation in Israel.
I dont know if is attracting you to Russia’s coparison but I neither think it is that bad now in Israel nor I think that it is so great in post-revolution Russia.
And I m ybocher, not Yeshiva Bocher.
Yeshiva bocher, as King Solomon said there is a time for piece and a time for war.
As it stands now there will be a war very soon with the arab countries and with the arabs inside Israel itself.
Israel is bringing itself to its own destruction.
The only thing that will save it is when the arabs are thrown out.
That is what the people want but in israel it is ‘illegal’ to say that and cetainly to vote that.
Hopefully they will be overthrown peacefully as the Soviet Union was. In either case it is now a tyranny and people like me, a full third of Israel are disenfranchised – any party that would do what they feel is right is simply declared ‘illegal’ – just as it was in soviet russia.
Revolution??? Oh so this what we were missing in Israel! And what kind of revolution you are talking about, bloodless I guess – right? And the one that doesnt weaken Israel’s ability to defend its borders and people I hope- right? Sowhat kind of revolution you are actually talking about?
TM you so full of it. You don’t answer direct points.
Israel is no democracy. I have explained this very clearly before.
Here is from this: https://jewlicious.com/?p=1250#comments discussion. –I haven’t seen you answer that there!
Faker …telling other they didn’t directly respond to your points…
Israel banned an ‘idea’ from participating in the ’so-called’ democracy.
Kach can’t run and fully 1/3 of Israel is disenfranchised.
We are seeing results from that playing out before us.
The only sad thing is that foolish ‘right-wingers’ like Ben-david and josh are too frightened to call out the truth. They are frightened of guys like you TM – they don’t want to sound ‘radical’- because of that fear their arguments are lame.
I don’t care if you or anyone else doesn’t like the truth.
The truth remains: Israel is no democracy.
There is no democratic way out. That has already been shut off- that is why it seems logical to me that only a revolution can change things.
I therefore support soldiers refusing orders given by this tyranny.
this Caroline Glick article tells what really goes on.
Josh, it would depend on why. As I was careful to state, I wasn’t supporting either a pro- or anti-disengagement status, just talking about how one person on a talk show I consider disreputable was gleeful about things I don’t consider to be a cause for joy.
I do find it sad that you appear to think G-d wishes only for peace between Jews, however. I still don’t have a real opinion on disengagement because I am neither Jewish, Israeli, nor Palestinian, and don’t have sufficient information to have an informed opinion.
I read Glick too. She’s very good and I often agree with her views. By the way, it wasn’t 300 buses, and only 4 licenses were confiscated. As for inner fascism, perhaps we should be looking at those who wish to undermine the system.
The Muddled One:
And ultimately, what is the evil army and police force doing? They stopped 300 buses from joining a demonstration that was already stretching them thin.
– – – – – – – – – – –
This is an excuse?
Widespread public opposition is a problem?
And the solution is… what? Suspension of those citizens’ rights?
More Muddling:
Yes, you’re right, that was undemocratic, and probably won’t happen again because of the outcry. Still, if I had the command and knew I could affect the outcome of the demonstration this way, I’d find a way to do this as well.
– – – – – – – – – – –
… and while Middle is getting in touch with his inner fascist, we’ll review the context in which this march took place:
– a PM that has betrayed the people’s mandate, run roughshod over his ministers and parliamentary partners, terrorized and ignored members of his own party, and is now running a dictatorship in all but name, propped up by the extreme left and Arab parties that voters explicitly rejected.
– an unelected leftist hegemony entrenched in the judiciary and media that is blackmailing the PM with corruption charges, imposing a policy that lost at the polls, and denying their opposition the democratic rights of free speech and assembly.
– a police force that has begun detaining minors and others for non-violent political activity, and using mafia-like threats of force to isolate and shut down dissenting protest.
In other words: the very situation against which the American Founding Fathers – and all other composers of post-Enlightenment constitutions – established rights of speech, press, and assembly.
These rights were granted specifically to facilitate civil protest – and if need be, civil disobedience – in precisely this situation. In the US, these rights include the right to bear arms – which gives you an idea of how seriously the right to oppose an illegitimate government was taken by those first American, who had known tyranny.
But there has been no violent protest here – just non-violent civil disobedience that would make MLK or Gandhi proud.
If middle is really reading all the newspapers he claims to be reading (and I’d advise him to re-read ANYTHING written by Caroline Glick over the last year) – then it’s clear that the charming tunnel-visioned, know-nothing demagogery that so endears him to the Jewlicious family is operating in high gear. To so miss the big picture, to cherry-pick factoids so as to portray the religious as enemies of democracy rather than its defenders – well, that’s a high (low?) point even for him. I guess we couldn’t expect him to break his unbroken record of blaming EVERYTHING on Those Darn Orthodox…
Muffti asks if I am indulging in victimology. On the contrary: after decades of playing little brother to the secular elite – of accepting their projected mantle of leadership – the religious zionists are finally finding the legs and cojones to demand their equal rights as citizens. This is a continuation of the welcome, blessed broadening and opening of Israeli democracy that began after 1973, and has included the political enfranchisement of the Sephardic sector as well. There is no whining or begging going on – my post described the history that led us to this point.
I’m staying outta this one. Too busy on a business trip right now.
parcequilfaut, would you promote disobeying orders if some president decided to use them to de-Americanize the south west coast of the US, you know, California? (yes, I know there would be millions waiting in line to replace those soldiers as well…)
Chill out middle, the fun has yet to begin. I’ll leave you and laya with something I heard recently, most likely just an urban legend. Some jewish cadet at West Point asked one of his history teachers why the Israeli wars are not studied for military prowess and ingenuity and the teacher answered that’s because those were miracles. Israel doesn’t win it’s wars because its army is the best fighting machine, let there be no doubts. And frankly, hello, Abba Ebban “the palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” Tactical geniuses? I think not. They’re merely tools in the hands of hashem to point us in the right direction. I’ve already said that we’d be a major world superpower if even just the several million Jews still alive united under god and the torah he gave us.
When we say ‘aseh shalom bimroomav…’, we’re not talking about mumjo jumbo peace with Arabs/goyim. We’re wishing that god bring peace between Jews. That’s the goal.
Whatever you say, ck.
Whew. Thanks, ck.
TM (TheMiddle, not Tom Morrisey) – seriously, and please don’t take offense, but this is one of the most… not good critiques of the settler protests, ever. It boggles my mind to consider that your dislike of the settlers is so venomous that you would stoop to such a ridiculous argument. And no, I won’t address it beyond that because it is prima facie ridiculous. Your argument offers no insight into the situation – rather it is a painfully glaring declaration of your irrational dislike of the settlers.
Great post, Middle. You’re at your dyspeptic best here. Evacuate the women and children.
I’ve often wondered why the Palestinians, with the tactical brilliance that has, of course, long been their hallmark, never hit on the idea of civil disobedience. Far more effective than any number of suicide bombers, eh?
But here’s a thought and a question for Ben-David. Can’t the settlers be seen as victims, not of a Sharon volte-face, but years of self-serving shucking and jiving by the Israeli right generally?
The right has long lacked the courage of its convictions, has it not? If the West Bank, for example, is part of the inalienable Land of Israel, why didn’t Begin- not to mention his Likud successors- annex it a generation ago?
Sure, world opinion and American policy were constraints. But the status of the occupied territories has been left up for grabs since ’67.
And that’s Sharon’s fault?
Jonathan, thanks for your comment, but while I was writing tongue in cheek, the fact is the Palestinians have never tried a peaceful civil disobedience campaign. It certainly remains an option for them. But you’re right that this was tangenital to my overall point that we are showing them how to over-stress the security forces. Needless to say, many of those who are participating have insider knowledge of the security forces, so by stretching them to their limits, they are using their deep knowledge – something the Palestinians don’t have but are now acquiring thanks to the anti-disengagement campaign.
Well said Middle.
Michael Steiner’s talkback (#3) from this article
Nice list of options, TM.
And, this is so funny to Muffti (and he knows he will face the legitimate wrath of Ben-David), but BD, are you actually using victimization politics? You practically introduced that word into the Jewlicious vocabulary with regards to homosexuals. Tell Muffti why this doesn’t count:
Muffti is sure you have a good way to show that this isn’t victimization politics but he’d like to be enlightened explicitly.
By they way, do you think that if there had been a referendum, disengagement would win or lose an option. And if it would win (as muffti recalls most polls saying it would have), is Sharon still ‘anti-democratic’ for pursuing the pull out?
I keep seeing responses to the whole Ghandi comment as though it were a serious concern of the writer. As I read this post, it only seemed sarcastic to me. And perhaps, like some of you have commented, a much prefered hope.
I think the writer is just as concerned about the desires of the settlers as “he” is about the safety of every other Israeli and non Israelis alike. Is it not appropriate to be concerned about the unnecessary stress on the one force that keeps all the people, and the land of Israel safe?
So far the amount of refusers is stuck at 35. That’s not massive. Neither was the leftwing attempt at refusal, they got stuck at 500. In a country where thousands serve these are peanuts.
Middle, I have commented and responded up to a point. But I don’t have the stregth for the endless back and forth that can easily ensue with you. I have addressed a few things, but not all things that you said. Sorry if that is a problem for you.
And I don’t understand what was so personal that I have to leave out? where does jsiricco need to teach me decorum? metioning my emotional energy level? i honestly dont know what you are talking about.
Laya, once again I suggest you keep the personal out of the equation.
Really, I don’t understand your point. If you don’t want to comment, then don’t.
If you do want to comment, then do.
If you want to comment that you don’t want to comment, especially because you believe my take on the topic isn’t up to the lofty standards of Laya of Jewlicious, then realize that your comment will elicit a response anyway.
If you want to comment that you don’t want to comment because we don’t need to discuss what everyone in Israel is already discussing, then we can probably shut the blog down.
I probably could use Jsirpicco giving you an earful about decorum etc. at this point. Have a nice day, though.
well middle, debating with you on these issues generally gets us no where and renders me frustrated. I’ll respect your need to debate it (perhaps that’s how you feel involved, which is fine), if you respect my need to just live it, and my right to say “oy” for the above stated reasons. It’s practically the only thing people are talking about here, so my emotional energy on the topic is spent. It’s not only the soldiers who are going through a moral dilemma about this. Forgive me if that seems like a cop-out, I just don’t have it in me to address each of your little points. So you win by default. But I hope you realize that still isn’t going to make any difference in the reality of the situation.
and for the record a variety of newspapers, is still just a variety of newspapers, just sensationalizing different elements. nature of the beast. But I wasn’t questioning the stardards of your sources, but the standards of your post (tone, lack of nuance, et al, we’ve been thru this before.)
have fun boys!
My standards are just fine. I have yet to see a cogent argument against what I’ve written. The best you could offer was sarcasm about sit-ins, instead of recognizing their power, and some comments about how strong a nation we have and how everything will be fine because it was in the past (you know, the Bolshevik period).
As far as standards go, I’m afraid my sources are the Jerusalem Post, Ha’aretz, Ynet, Jerusalem Report, the NY Times, Arutz Sheva…and friends who live there. Broad enough for you? Ben David also essentially confirmed everything I wrote. He’s one person, but it’s only because Josh hasn’t posted yet.
But who knows, maybe you have better sources than mine. So respond to my points. It shouldn’t be too tough considering my low standards and your lofty ones.
right, when have I ever called Ben David’s posts “brilliant posting”? (no offense BD). Furthermore, commentors are commentors, and bloggers are bloggers. We’re like a little family here, right? So shoot me for thinking we are more accountable and wanting a higher standard for us.
added: Also, no matter what you think of Ben David, he’s posting what he lives, not just what he reads in ha’aretz. He gets some credit from me for putting his money where his mouth and being an active part in what he believes in.
Laya, it’s only demagoguery when you disagree, right? Otherwise, it’s brilliant posting. I think if you read Ben David’s comment, you’ll see some demagoguery and some black and white divisions that are, sadly, far more representative of what is going on than you wish to admit. Read his post and tell me who isn’t being trashed.
No, middle, I think it’s important enough to discuss, but i still can say “oy” to armchair outrage and demagogue-like tactics, can’t I?
That woman is certainly representative of some settlers and what people like to believe all settlers are like. It is easier to see the world in blacks and whites (or even just dark grays), so i can’t blame you. Remember though, you get your news and opinions about this solely from news sources that are sensational by practice. The news doesn’t represent moderates or level headed individuals, they are just not that interesting. There’s a whole world of reality here, and of nuance, that seems to get lost in translation.
re: sit in’s – it was you who brought up how happily they were dusting off Ghandi’s manuals.
I wont presume to know how you feel, but I believe we have a pretty special country here. By all accounts, we should have lost every war waged against us by our enemies. But we’re still here, despite limited resources and and an incredibly strained defense force, and we’ve built an amazing country in the midst of impossible circumstances. There continues to be threats from all sides, and I fully recognize that my life is in the hands of this country. But I, for one, have faith in us. History has allowed me that. So I’m unsure what the point is of creating fear or hysteria about what Hezbollah could do, cause if they were smarter or better organized, they could do a lot of things.
And it’s not that I’m bored, it’s that I’m saturated with it. So you’ll excuse me if I bow out, I’ve got to go pass a protest and propaganda posters on my way to the super market. woohoo!
Ben David, I just saw your post.
Let’s see: Bolsheviks; Socialist clique; undemocratic government; Sharon sleazy corrupt liar; Supreme Court – undemocratic and not representative; media – government cover-up machine, and undemocratic; Academia – undemocratic except for Bar Ilan grads ( 😆 I thought this was hilarious).
Now what are you saying that’s different than my points 1 and 2? You are making my case. Thanks.
Better yet, you then whine about little girls in prison when you know full well that those girls sat in prison for 30 days because no adult was willing to come and take them into their custody. Shame on those parents. We’ve already had a discussion about children being (ab)used by the disengagement movement.
And ultimately, what is the evil army and police force doing? They stopped 300 buses from joining a demonstration that was already stretching them thin. Yes, you’re right, that was undemocratic, and probably won’t happen again because of the outcry. Still, if I had the command and knew I could affect the outcome of the demonstration this way, I’d find a way to do this as well. I mean, tough luck for all the people going there with the intent of entering Gaza and breaking down the police – both stated goals of the leaders of this demonstration.
Funny how you want to play by the rules when it suits you and complain about the rules…when it suits you.
Muddled indeed.
Parcequilfaut, she was absolutely and completely representative of what is being done to soldiers. They are being emotionally manipulated in a very sophisticated manner. Imagine being compared to Nazis by other Jews who are supposed to be under your protection. Imagine a little girl walking up to you as you stand at your station, unable to move, and beseeching you not to move her and her family. Imagine training and then doing your best not to harm anyone, only to listen to reports on the radio later calling you undemocratic, evil, puppet of an illegitimate government, etc.
Hey The Man, don’t ever forget that it is thanks to the so called “erev rav” that you have a state and that you have settlements.
Laya, what’s the matter? You getting bored with this topic? I haven’t posted about it in a while but we are approaching the zero hour. You don’t think this is important enough to discuss?
But as for your points, if you don’t think it matters that you show the enemy what it takes to stretch your defenses, then you may not be the best person to comment about these matters. The settlers are providing a road map, and they are reacting and improving their tactics on an ongoing basis. Every improvement is noted by the media, and there are lessons learned by everybody. And no, Hizbollah is not going to do a sit-in. A coordinated attack maybe, but not a sit in.
I don’t know enough about the whole disengagement deal to speak cogently on it, but I use talk radio as a way to keep myself awake on long drives, and I can’t say that the woman interviewed by G. Gordon Liddy about the plans for Kfer Maimon seemed to be making the cause look any better; she was literally gloating about IDF soldiers disobeying orders to let her people in and out of Gaza, and as a person from a military family, it completely rubbed me the wrong way. Actively encouraging soldiers to disobey their orders can be construed as an act of treason under U.S. law (don’t know about Israeli law), and is not really appropriate behavior; I’m all for civil disobedience, but that is the refuge of a private citizen, not a member of the armed forces on active duty.
As I said, I don’t know enough about the particular politics involved to have formed an opinion either pro- or anti-disengagement, but were I a person who formed such opinions based on insufficient information, her gleeful Sharon-bashing and proud admission that she is using her children to sway peoples’ opinions on the matter would have kicked my opinion to the other side in a hurry. Respectful opposition, it was not. (Of course, she was being interviewed by a guy I think is a complete nutcase, so I’m not taking her as representative of the antidisengagement movement as a whole, but she wasn’t doing her cause any favors with me.)
What’s worse than muddled middling?
Melodramatic muddled middling.
– Our Story So Far: –
Israel was established by a socialist clique that has used every means possible to (a) concentrate power in their own hands, and (b) force the majority of tradition-respecting Israeli Jews to get with their program of ultra-secularization. For generations, religious zionists and north africans were systematically excluded from government controlled industry and higher education.
The first crack in this edifice occured after the 1973 war, when the opposition Likud party first came to power. Since then, the secular elite has tried to portray the growing political power of the religious and Sephardic sectors as a threat to democracty – despite the fact that these Bolsheviks never had a democratic bone in their bodies.
As in America, the Left can no longer win elections reliably, and has barricaded itself into bastions of undemocratic power:
– The Supreme Court (which selects its members without parliamentary review, perpetuating a leftist cabal – American Jews are invited to compare this with the open selection process now going on in the US.)
– The Media (broadcast media are still state controlled – see middle, you were inadvertently correct when you wrote about how “They attack the media as if it is one big illegitimate block that aligns itself with the state” – because that’s the truth here in Israel. A handful of major newspapers dominate the print media, and at a recent confab of journalists, their leader urged them to “guard Sharon like an etrog” until the expulsion is carried out – so the major media outlets are all sitting on major stories of Sharon’s corruption and malfeasance for purely ideological purposes, while spouting condescendingly to The Rest of Us about how they are the “watchdogs of democracy” and we should believe their assertions that the settlers are awful.)
– Academia (this is changing as Bar-Ilan University graduates more and more of the country’s intellectuals – but just a handful of academics are objecting to the dismantling of Israel’s democratic norms, the rest are fellow travelers.)
Israel’s silent majority thought that by voting for Sharon, it had extracted the country from the Oslo death-spiral imposed on it by the Left. The Labor party proposed a plan for unilateral withdrawal from Gaza almost identical to Sharon’s – and was trounced in the elections, which gave a landslide to Sharon’s hard-line platform.
Then Sharon turned around and, ignoring the people’s mandate, adopted the policy of unilateral withdrawal. To keep his government alive, he has run roughshod over the rules of Israeli democracy, ignored his own party’s internal votes, fired ministers who disagreed with him, and trashed his considerable parliamentary majority. He now essentially rules as a dictator, estranged from his own party, and propped up by Arab and leftist parties. Does anyone really think this is the sort of mandate those who voted for Sharon intended?
It is now clear that Sharon – who has a long history of double-dealing, subversion, and outright lying – is up to his ears in corruption, and that there is a clear connection between his about-face and charges of corruption brought against him. Israelis have seen clearly that the investigations against Sharon and his son Omri “coincidentally” come to the front of the newspapers whenever it seems that Sharon might bail out of the expulsion plan.
Over the past year, the state-controlled media has launched a program of demonization against their main challenger for power – the Religious Zionist movement. This is similar to the program of delegitimization that they tried during the Oslo years – exploiting the Rabin assassination to discredit 1/3 of the Israeli population.
The silent majority opposed to the expulsion plan has seen itself shut out of the media, has seen its applications for permits to assemble and demonstrate refused, has seen the deliberate use of plants and agents provacateurs – and outright disinformation – used to discredit them.
The steady stream of warnings by the non-political ranks of the army about the dangers of the withdrawal plan have been consistently buried inside the newspapers, while fabricated shock headlines about the settlers have played on the front pages.
The left-liberal international press has picked up these stories and run with them, sometimes stripping of them of all context in their eagerness to provide an excuse for/counterpoint to Palestinian terror.
Starting this spring, elements of the Religious Zionist movement began engaging in civil disobedience – because ALL THE NORMAL VENUES FOR DISSENT that a democracy guarantees its citizens were open to them.
The police and army have reacted with typical heavy-handedness. Middle, the “legitimate democratic government” you so admire is now holding minors in solitary confinement for the “crime” of distributing anti-expulsion literature on streetcorners. Police have been caught beating and choking citizens engaged in non-violent protests.
This all came to a head last week in Kfar Maimon – when the army and police tried to shut down a peaceful march of men, women, and children within the borders of Israel proper. To stop people getting to the march, police boarded over 300 chartered buses and confiscated the drivers’ licenses. When residents of the Galilee began organizing to go down to Kfar Maimon, police called in bus companies and threatened to shut them down on trumped up charges if they took these jobs and drove people to a peaceful protest.
The Supreme Court – which is abuzz with self-righteous activity when it comes to forcing gay pride parades and other manifestations of its secular ideology – refused to hear the petition brought by the bus companies. To the highest court in Israel, the basic freedoms of democracy are a non-issue.
Middle – a word the repeats in your post is “legitimate”. Are these legitimate actions for a democratic government to take against its citizens?
The settler movement has shown itself to be THE major voice truly championing democracy and equality in Israel. It has shown incredible restraint in sticking to non-violent forms of protest as the Left has tried to restore their Bolshevik hegemony.
It’s not really necessary, in this climate, to make much effort to undermine the morale of both police and enlisted corps – it’s likely that these people voted even more heavily for Sharon’s original hard-line policy, knowing what they know about the dangers of withdrawal to Israel’s security. Now they are being called upon to carry out a policy that they rejected at the polls – to rip people they know to be the salt of the earth out of their homes.
Oh, and btw TM, leftist, secular soldiers already DO refuse to serve in places like Hebron.
You know, maybe the middle has a point – what a terrible day that will be for Israel, the day Hezbollah coordinates a giant sit-in, blocking the northern roads, while Palestinians from the West Bank have a peaceful march from Ramalla to Yaffo, and Gaza Arabs send their children to hand out ribbons on the streets. Whatever will we do? our security forces will be overwhelmed! How will the nation survive? Lets just pray the Arabs are too blinded by their hatred of settlers to learn from thier evil tactics and that they keep those Gandhi books up on the shelf!
some of us care more about the land that god has given us than being thankful to the (erev rav) government. priorities, tm
Well, one thing the Palestinians are seeing is that this country is going to be incredibly vulnerable while all its military and police forces are being used to prevent the settlers from rushing to Gush Katif/ being beligerant towards the Arabs. There will basically be no police in the cities to help prevent tragedies, and no soldiers to help prevent any kind of violent invasion that may occur. The ironic part is that the settlers supposedly want to keep Gush Katif for security reasons.
well hello asparagirl, haven’t seen you in these parts for a while! Welcome back.
Thank you, T_M. Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this.
oy. this again.
Yes, ck, I also hate those murderous fuckers who stole the lives of parents of three children, two of whom were not yet old enough to live on their own.
What does that have to do with strengthening these murderers’ (and their supporters and those who advocate for these types of actions) hands by showing them our achilles heel?
I gave you 4 points to address and instead you gave me some emotional response that is unrelated to this post. You think my points are unrealistic? Ask Dan Halutz.
Uh Middleman… you’re being a little melodramatic there no? I mean the state of Israel has survived against overwhelming odds from day one. I’m quite certain it’ll survive the settlers’ civil disobedience and flagrant abuse of the color orange.
Besides, I can only dream that the Palestinians take up the settlers example – sadly it’ll be too late for Dov and Rachel Kol who were just shot to death by the cowardly motherfuckers. I’m sure Rachel and Dov would have loved a little civil disobedience instead. Sadly I guess the cocksucker murderers who killed them didn’t have Ghandi’s book with them.
Jeez louise TM. It’s talk like yours that is going to drive me into the anti-disengagement camp. Seriously.