Okay, some idiots are actually celebrating at Baruch Goldstein’s grave. Why are they celebrating a man who walked into a Muslim place of prayer and killed 29 while wounding 145? I don’t know. Some have tried to make his grave into a shrine as well. I realize they’re a minority of a minority of a small minority of Israelis, but just as Goldstein and his memory should be excised from the Jewish people, so should these idiots by asking them to remove themselves from among us. I’m sure Jews for Jesus would love to have them. Or deport them to Saudi Arabia or something.

In February 1994, on the eve of the Purim holiday, Goldstein, a doctor from Kiryat Arba, entered the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron and opened fire, killing 29 Muslim worshippers and wounding 125 others. He was then attacked by some of the remaining worshippers, who used his weapon to kill him.

“Arik is a traitor,” the right-wingers – mostly former members of the Kach and Kahane Lives movements – shouted out occasionally in reference to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. “Rabin was also a traitor. The [hanging] tree is ready and waiting. Arik, you will follow in his footsteps.”

I just want to point out that the only reason we know the name of this man, who committed his heinous crime of murdering innocent people 11 years ago, is that he is a significant exception to the great part of Israeli society. These celebrants remind me of Hamas parties where they give out candies after successful suicide bombings where innocent Israelis are murdered.

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themiddle

18 Comments

  • It is a shame that those who wish to paint an ugly picture of Israel drag out this man and his supporters everytime they want to talk about a massacre committed by the Jews (and of course Deir Yassin as well). I don’t mind condemming him every chance I get, but I wish his memory and the evil that he committed disappear into history.

  • Dude, don’t blame the messenger. Blame the people who are out there doing this. They’re dangerous.

    Oh, and one more thing, it is not the people reporting this abhorrence who are keeping this alive, it’s the people who pay homage to that man. For all we know, he may have been insane when he committed his act. These people are not insane and know what they’re doing.

  • Well, in all fairness, there is another side to the story. No one disputes the fact that as an MD, Goldstein worked tirelessly to save the lives of both Arab and Jew. Those that celebrate Goldstein do so because the theory has it that his attack occured when he had heard that a terrorist attack was being planned out of the tomb of the patriarchs. His plan was to somehow foil that attack. The celebrants are misguided of course but I believe that but for the (misplaced) notion that Goldstein’s plan was to save lives, he wouldn’t be so celebrated. I mean anyone remember the name of the dude who shot up the Temple Mount? Me neither.

    Sadly, I think its pretty clear that Goldstein flipped his lid and that’s what made him do what he did. Goldstein does not deserve to be celebrated. He deserves to be pittied.

  • We’re in agreement, so I don’t think there’s another side to the story. He probably lost his head and who knows why. When people celebrate him, however, I don’t believe they are celebrating the saving of lives. They are celebrating the deaths he caused. Take a look at the article, these are the same 100-200 Kahane guys who seem to have nothing else to do except…um, cause trouble.

  • And as long as I am on it, it wasn’t a Muslim place of prayer per se. Just a place were Muslims were praying. Just sayin … That of course does not remotely change the heinous nature of what he did.

  • Undeniably, these people are misguided, wrong and offensive. But did they learn their love of Goldstein from Hamas? Or was it more that unrelenting terrorism and murder perpetrated by Hamas and their ilk have driven otherwise decent folks to espouse horrible ideals?

    The punishment of Karet that you wish not just on Goldstein, but on anyone who celebrates him, is a little harsh. I’d first worry about those fuckers lobbing missiles on 17 year old girls in Sderot, or planning more suicide bombings, or building nukes aimed at Israel before I gave a rat’s ass about a few misguided shmendriks. Yeah there are extremist elements in Israeli society. I know. The Press loves those guys and I hear about them ALL the time – it adds credence to the lie that all of Israel is a racist colonialist expansionist apartheid entity made up of frothing at the mouth baby killers intent on regional hegemony on the backs of the long suffering Palestinian people.

    But hey, thanks for the reminder. I’ll just file it away here with all the other stuff I have to read.

  • The punishment of Karet that you wish not just on Goldstein, but on anyone who celebrates him, is a little harsh.

    Really? Muffti doesn’t see why, especially if the ‘they respect his motives’ theory is as dubious as its sounds as a motive for celebration. They are celebrating someone who in a small way is responsible for all the fuckers that you rather worry about. They make the rest of us look like hypocrits for criticizing terrorists by celebrating murdering civilians. As Ice Cube would say, Karet them no good bitches

  • GM is right on the money.

    ck, I didn’t realize I was wishing Karet upon them, but now that you bring it up, that’s exactly what I wish for. They are the worst part of us. You know it and I know it. They are the ones who are probably driving all those road blockages in Israel. They are just like those idiots who beat up the Palestinian laborers the other day. They are just like the bastards who cut down olive trees because they belonged to a Palestinian.

    Let’s be very clear about this, they are doing it because the others are Arabs. They are “amalek” to these people. And you know what? After all these centuries of Jewish suffering at the hands of others simply because they were Jewish, I do not to be associated in any way shape or form with Jews who do the same to Arabs.

    I know that’s clear to you. We, as Jews, must be more moral and more just than any society can be. At the very least, if we concede that Israel is a country among countries and the Jews are people like any others, then we should be as moral and as just as others, if we can’t be better. These people drag us down as a people and as a society, and they do it with the intent to bring about an even more unjust and amoral society.

    Let them go live in Saudi Arabia, they’d fit right in.

    As for your subtle hint that this is yet just another comment or article that places us in a negative light, yes I concede that you’re right. Then again, how are others going to know that these bastards don’t represent me or most people if we don’t stand up and loudly proclaim that they are in the wrong and we want no part of them?

  • GM wrote: They are celebrating someone who in a small way is responsible for all the fuckers that you rather worry about.

    It’s a chicken and egg thing then? What came first? Baruch Goldstein’s shameful atrocity? Or Palestinian terrorism? You’re suggesting that Palestinian terror is caused by right-wing violence? Well, that’s historically simply not the case. Palestinian violence against Jews has a long and storied history, predating the existence of the State of Israel. That’s a matter of historical record. I’ll leave it at that.

    TM: The Kachniks you talk about are nutters. Marginal nutters and until you know for sure that they are responsible for “road blockages” I would urge you to refrain from making such baseless accusations and demonizing an entire movement. Israel is a democracy, people are allowed to oppose the government. I disagree with them, but what the hey, they’re entitled to their opinions.

    After all these centuries of Jewish suffering at the hands of others simply because they were Jewish, I do not to be associated in any way shape or form with Jews who do the same to Arabs.

    Well, we ALL have been doing it to Arabs haven’t we? The University of Tel Aviv in Ramat Aviv is built on the ruins of an Arab village. Our presence in “Palestine” has in fact displaced scores of Palestinians. But for our presence there, there would be far more Palestinian Olive trees. But for our presence in “Palestine” there would be no need for suicide bombers or rocket attacks or the fostering amongst the Palestinians of a culture of death.

    I mean sure, we want to paint Zionism as some mystical albeit secular movement that’s all about these beautiful humanist values, about a shlemiel of a people transformed into strong brave rebuilders of a lost land blah blah blah.

    Whatever.

    We can spin it any way we like. But the fact is that we are and have been engaged in a conflict over land. In our role as victors we have victimized an entire people. Someone who I respect tremendously has this thing for Heschel and so allow me to quote him: Only a few are guilty but we are all responsible.

    In our demonization of settlers perhaps we are engaging in that oh so Jewish vocation of self-loathing. When we look at them and go to great pains to loudly proclaim how loathsome we consider them and their actions, maybe what we are doing is trying to deflect the fact that what we see, is ourselves.

    Just sayin …

  • CK, really, your reading of people (and this isn’t just Muffti Muffti is talking about) is about as uncharitable as possible. Let’s do a short excersize in textual analysis. Muffti wrote (emphasis added):

    They are celebrating someone who in a small way is responsible for all the fuckers that you rather worry about.

    OK, time for a short test. Did Muffti mean by ‘small way’
    a) Palestinian terror is caused by right-wing violence?
    b) Palestinian terror is a multifaceted phenomenon with many causes, most of which we don’t understand very well, but with one small contributing element being Goldstein’s massacre?
    c) Palestinean terror is fun and Muffti is glad Goldstein got in on the action.

    (we like to give our kids an obviously false one in order to make them feel like they are making progress. But for you, ck, Muffti gave two obvsiouly wrong answers. It just so happens that one is quoted from you.)

  • Holy cow, ck, look at what you’ve just written!

    We went from a bunch of Kachniks supporting some mass murderer who may have been off his rocker that day to equating their movement with all of Zionism and Israel.

    Why?

    Just acknowledge that they are the WORST PART OF US. Period. They are NOT LIKE US. They are not representative of Israel or of Zionism.

    The ruins upon which Ramat Aviv were built were not built on those ruins because of malice and hatred toward Arabs and a desire to see them dead. They exist as a result of an existential war, started by the Arabs and lost by the Arabs over their inability to see Jews as a partner sharing the land; over their murderous hatred of Jews.

    These people celebrating at the grave are so far from Israeli thinking and the mainstream that the Knesset changed the law so they wouldn’t be able to sit in there. They still can’t beat the low threshold of votes to get in there.

    And with all due respect, the ones who are beating up the laborers, the one who are chopping down the olive trees, the ones who are attacking soldiers and calling staunch Zionists who hold different views, “traitors,” are not “ourselves.” They are “others.” I reject them like a cancer.

  • Oh, I forgot. With respect to your comment about the road blocks, you might want to look up who Itamar Ben Gvir is and how his wife was recently arrested for…road blocking.

  • TM: So Itamar Ben Gvir’s wife gets arrested at a roadblock. Thus all people involved in civil disobedience against disengagement from Gaza are kachniks that ought to be subject to karet. Ok. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

    The ruins upon which Ramat Aviv were built were not built on those ruins because of malice and hatred toward Arabs and a desire to see them dead. They exist as a result of an existential war, started by the Arabs and lost by the Arabs over their inability to see Jews as a partner sharing the land; over their murderous hatred of Jews.

    It makes little difference to the people who lost their homes what the lofty intentions of the Zionists were.

    These people celebrating at the grave are so far from Israeli thinking and the mainstream that the Knesset changed the law so they wouldn’t be able to sit in there. They still can’t beat the low threshold of votes to get in there.

    Or perhaps the members of the Knesset and their constituents hated to be reminded of certain facts. These are that at the end of the day, it matters little to a Palestinian if he and his family had been dispossessed by a frothing at the mouth demagogue or a kind, friendly, caring humanist Israeli who will give lip service to giving him respect, and treating him with dignity and wanting to live in peace with him, but whose fancy renovated loft in Jaffa nonetheless used to be the Palestinian’s home and the Israeli is not actually offering to give it back.

    To the average Palestinian, a Jew is a Jew and we are all seen in the same way. So big deal. We kicked Kach out of Knesset. Now that we have all your land, we really wanna live in peace. Big fucking deal. We say how different we are from those Goldstein Fan Club nutters, but to the Palestinians the difference is elementary.

    Again, I’m just sayin. There’s no sense proclaiming your moral superiority over others when you are perceived as being no different. I mean, yeah great, Baruch Goldstein and his supporters are shits. Wonderful. The Palestinians ask “Can we now have our land back?” and the answer the Goldstein supporters give as well as everyone else in Israel is “Uh. No.”

  • Muffti just can’t believe how ck can’t read anything and get the intended point. Forget it; the aggravation of arguing with you isn’t worth the misunderstanding it will inculcate in you.

  • ck, I was glad to clarify about the road blocks. It’s a shame that you couldn’t extrapolate from my comment that she wasn’t the only Kachnik there. It’s also suspected that he’s a key organizer.

    The Knesset members and their constituents did not reject Kach because they “hated being reminded of certain facts.” Just to remind you that the Knesset is one of the most aggressive, free-flying parliaments in the world. People there not infrequently froth at the mouth as they speak.

    No, ck, the Knesset rejected Kach because they agree with my point that there’s no place for an ostracisizing and hateful ideology of the extreme Right within the confines of a democratic institution.

    Now the rest of your comment is some, um, frothing at the mouth blather about how all Palestinians perceive us in the same way whether we dance around a mass murderer’s grave or sing the praises of the Palestinians as a peace-loving people.

    Ck?

    Who cares?

    What does it matter what they think? Do I not murder people because I care about what others might think? Do I not steal from others because I care what others might think? Do I not covet my neighbor’s gorgeous Jaguar XK12 because of what others might think? Do I pay employees a fair wage and try to treat them well because of what others might think? Do I quietly give the security guard at the school a gift (when others don’t) and not mention it to anybody because of what others might think? Do I give money to charities without asking for anything in return because of what others might think?

    Do I run a country and let a people live in the most ethical and moral possible way because of what others might think?

    Sheesh, ck. I have read enough of your comments over the past years to know that you don’t believe your own posts in this discussion. Stop arguing for argument’s sake.

  • Yo T_M and others,
    shavuah tov,

    The ruins upon which Ramat Aviv were built were not built on those ruins because of malice and hatred toward Arabs and a desire to see them dead.

    How do you know? Were you there? or do you buy all that hypocritical left-wing sentimental zionist crap? (I’m onlu being half-sarcastic).

    A friend in miluim lives on a kibbutz in the ramat menashe area (near zichron) and he claims that his kibbutz has not touched the area of the abandonned arab village (not really a village, more like a few houses) and truly wait for the people to return.

    On the other hand, I’m always reminded by self-righteous people like you about a friend who lived on a kibbutz near Kiryat Gat down south who claims that in May 1948, the infamous Jordanian officer came to ask the Arabs to leave their houses so that they could come and clean up the Jews. The kibbutzniks begged and pleaded for their Arab friends (my friend said that there was true symbiosis) not to leave. But lo and behold, in the middle of the night, the trucks came and the Arabs left.

    The kibbutz was so ‘disappointed’ and incensed that their friends betrayed them and voluntarily left so that the Arabs armies could get rid of them Jews and get their land, that that same day, they bulldozed EVERYTHING away with little remorse.

    They are not representative of Israel or of Zionism.

    The people celebrating at the grave are a part of you no matter how much you hate and deny it.

    By the way, so is that small cult called neturei karta. But while the neturei people are sick for their mingling with people who openly want our extermination. The netureis think that us Zionists make them look bad. Ring a bell?

  • I know because I’ve spoken to enough fighters and civilians from that era, not to mention having spoken to historians and read enough about the history to come to certain conclusions.

    Now if you’re calling me self-righteous because of my comments about these loonies dancing at Goldstein’s grave, then so be it, consider me self-righteous. And no they’re not a part of me, just like the Neturei Karta aren’t a part of me. Lots of cults form from a core religion. By taking on certain beliefs and values, they essentially leave that religion permanently. Happened to Christianity…

    Oh, and shavua tov to you.

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